Place Clichy
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Category:Quattuordecalingual_signs needs discussion |
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:: "A perceptible (e.g. visible) indication" etc. is a totally different meaning of "sign" than the category. We don't use "sign" categories for finger gestures, meter readings, apparitions, etc. We use it in a slightly broader sense than "signboards", because it includes signs directly written on buildings, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a native English speaker active here who thinks that the way we use "signs" in category names should include what is inscribed on a gravestone or memorial. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ! [[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] 16:36, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
::: {{Re|Jmabel}} Well the [[:wikt:sign|Wiktionary definition]] elaborates a little bit further to define a sign as '{{tq|a unit consisting of a signifier and a signified concept}}'. Again, I agree that ''gravestone'' describes the picture a lot better than the word ''sign'' taken alone, but it is clearly the ''bilingual English-Greek'' part that matters here. If this gravestone inscription has a signified concept and a signifier expressed in two languages, then IMHO it belongs in the bilingual English-Greek signs category <u>''in addition to''</u> (or as a complement to) the gravestones category. I believe that's the best way to make content available to users, except if your wish is to remove such signs-that-are-not-signs from the multilingual categories entirely. The multilingual signs categories will never contain 'finger gestures, meter readings, apparitions, etc.' anyway. [[User:Place Clichy|Place]] ''[[User talk:Place Clichy|<span style="color:#800080;">Clichy</span>]]'' 17:02, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
:::: My issue is that it is an "inscription", not a "sign". There would be nothing difficult about creating categories for bilingual inscriptions under [[:Category:Inscriptions by language]]. In fact, I now see that two levels under that we already have [[:Category:Bilingual grave markers]], which is presumably where those should go. If you also wanted to put [[:Category:Bilingual English-Greek grave-markers]] as a subcat of [[:Category:Bilingual English-Greek signs]] I could live with that, but it ought to be distinguished [from "signs"], and [it ought to be] a subcat of [[:Category:Bilingual grave markers]]. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ! [[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] 17:43, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
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== Reverted ==
Hi there. I've reverted your deltion of the Category:Countries of Europe [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Wales&diff=prev&oldid=727484126 here] on Category:Wales, as the issue has been discussed fully on the Talk page. You gave the following reason: [[COM:OVERCAT]], but as I've just mentioned, the Wales Talk page mentions fully the COM:OVERCAT statement that 'Countries may be categorized as part of multiple overlapping categories.' If you still disagree that Countries may be categorized as part of multiple overlapping categories, then please raise the issue on the Talk page. Thanks. [[User:Llywelyn2000|Llywelyn2000]] ([[User talk:Llywelyn2000|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 10:32, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
== not all bilingual signs in Carinthia are [[:category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs]] ==
Bonjour {{PAGENAME}}, you added [[:category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]] to [[:category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs]], which is not justified by the content of the category, as it also contains bilingual signs with Italian text. One way to resolve this is to remove your category assignment and stay abstract and vage about the languages involved (that was the intention of the category when I created it). Another way is to split [[:category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]] to [[:category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs in Carinthia]] & [[:category:Bilingual German-Italian signs in Carinthia]] (and more). Jet another way is to assign the language specific subcat to all the individual images accordingly. best --[[User:Herzi Pinki|Herzi Pinki]] ([[User talk:Herzi Pinki|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 06:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
: {{Re|Herzi Pinki}} that's a good point! I notice that [[:Category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]] is placed as a child category of [[:Category:Slovene inscriptions in Austria]] from the start, so the assumption that a bilingual sign in Carinthia would display Slovene is not mine. Similarly, [[:Category:Bilingual city limit signs in Carinthia]] was initially placed in no less than [[:Category:Slovene-language road signs]], [[:Category:Slovene inscriptions in Austria]] and [[:Category:Slovene minority in Austria]] (which I [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Bilingual_city_limit_signs_in_Carinthia&diff=610769672&oldid=525578248 changed] to the more appropriate [[:Category:Bilingual German-Slovene road signs]] and [[:Category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]]). When I quickly look at the files, it seems that Italian inscriptions would be found mostly on trilingual German-Italian-Slovene signs, or quadrilingual English-German-Italian-Slovene signs, so technically that is still correct.
: It is a bit cumbersome to develop categories in a too refined way, because what you get is a very large number of categories with a too small scope, which is not practical. I believe we have the following available options:
: '''Option 1.''' Do nothing. Bilingualism in Carinthia is ultra-predominantly German-Slovene, and the category reflects that. The occasional German-Italian or German-Italian-Slovene sign will always be an exception.
: '''Option 2.''' Remove all language-related parent categories from [[:Category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]] and place them on individual files (e.g. [[:Category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs]] and [[:Category:Slovene inscriptions in Austria]] for all applicable files).
: '''Option 3.''' Create an intermediate [[:Category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs in Austria]] (I believe that is preferable to language-pair categories at the Carinthia level), and maybe [[:Category:Bilingual German-Italian signs in Austria]] if there is a significant number of files, and place it on individual files next to [[:Category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]].
: Again, sometimes being too precise defeats the purpose of categories. However I cannot really judge the magnitude of the problem created by bilingual signs in Carinthia with languages other than Slovene. What do you think ? [[User:Place Clichy|Place]] ''[[User talk:Place Clichy|<span style="color:#800080;">Clichy</span>]]'' 15:51, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
::I fully agree with your ''It is a bit cumbersome to develop categories in a too refined way''. Categorization is abstraction. But we are light-years away from still having that choice. The whole category tree is cluttered with extremely overrefined sub concepts nobody can make a good distinction between (and SDC promised something it could not nearly fulfil). I mostly fill categories by analysing the content of the images, by what can be seen, by what is the subject (and the side aspects), and when I have largely filled a category, somebody will come around and split it into endless subcategories or intersect parallel concepts (like rivers by municipality, persons by year, objects by color, signs by language, buildings by protection status - a process where the intersection is neither done completely nor sustainable, nor is it obvious or helpful).
::I stumbled across [[:File:Wernberg Umberg Friedhof Gedenktafel Andreas Schuster-Drabosnjak 02052017 8073.jpg]], which has both [[:Category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]] and [[:Category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs]], which is [[COM:OVERCAT]] as long as [[:Category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]] is in [[:Category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs]]. So I feel the category relationship isn't intuitive enough. <small>Besides that, it is a plaque, not a sign.</small>
::I would go for
::*[[:Category:Bilingual signs in Austria]]
::**[[:Category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs in Austria]] (to have a by country intermediate category)
::**[[:Category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia]] (the rest of non German-Slovene signs)
::***[[:Category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs in Carinthia]] (as this is the mast majority, as a subcat of the former 2)
::*:and for national completeness
::**[[:Category:Bilingual Croatian-German signs in Austria]]
::**[[:Category:Bilingual signs in Burgenland]]
::***[[:Category:Bilingual Croatian-German signs in Burgenland]] (as this is the mast majority, as a subcat of the former 2)
::? --[[User:Herzi Pinki|Herzi Pinki]] ([[User talk:Herzi Pinki|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 21:55, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
Hi {{Ping|Place Clichy}}, I saw that you are doing already something, but it is not clear to me to where we are heading. --[[User:Herzi Pinki|Herzi Pinki]] ([[User talk:Herzi Pinki|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 05:33, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
: {{Re|Herzi Pinki}} I removed {{diff2|802344454|Category:Bilingual signs in Carinthia}} from ''Slovene'' categories, because as you pointed out correctly that's wrong. I reviewed all files and placed them in the appropriate language category, and therefore created {{C|Bilingual German-Slovene signs in Austria}} but also {{C|Bilingual German-Italian signs in Austria|Bilingual German-Italian}}, {{C|Trilingual English-German-Slovene signs in Austria|Trilingual English-German-Slovene}}, {{C|Trilingual German-Italian-Slovene signs in Austria|Trilingual German-Italian-Slovene}}, {{C|Trilingual French-German-Italian signs in Austria|Trilingual French-German-Italian}}, {{C|Trilingual French-German-Russian signs in Austria|Trilingual French-German-Russian}}, {{C|Quadrilingual English-German-Italian-Slovene signs in Austria|Quadrilingual English-German-Italian-Slovene}}, {{C|Quadrilingual English-French-German-Russian signs in Austria|Quadrilingual English-French-German-Russian}} and {{C|Quinquelingual English-French-German-Italian-Slovene signs in Austria|Quinquelingual English-French-German-Italian-Slovene}} categories. I do not think it is a good idea to create categories combining language pairs and regions (or type of signs for that matter). I hope you will find the changes helpful. [[User:Place Clichy|Place]] ''[[User talk:Place Clichy|<span style="color:#800080;">Clichy</span>]]'' 07:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
::{{Ping|Place Clichy}} Yes, find it useful. Thanks. If ''by type of sign'' is not a good idea (if I got you right), then you should spread your idea by ''proposing'' to merge everything to [[:Category:Bilingual texts in Austria]] (etc.) (includes plaques, signs, information boards, inscriptions, ...) and ''propose'' to delete the rest. My proposal was not in general to combine languages and regions, but only for Slovene - Carinthia and Croatian - Burgenland. I fear without proper description of your intention at least in the relevant categories and steady enforcement, categories like [[:Category:Bilingual German-Slovene signs in Carinthia]] seem a natural extension and will happen anyway. best --[[User:Herzi Pinki|Herzi Pinki]] ([[User talk:Herzi Pinki|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 08:10, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
== Removing "White American history" ==
Totally with you on that, but notice that in some cases it should probably be replaced rather than removed, e.g. note my further edit to [[:Category:German American history]]. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ! [[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] 18:20, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
: Hello {{Re|Jmabel}} I took some time to manually check all the 100+ files and see if other categories should take its place, e.g. {{diff2|813535901|this edit}}. I must confess I went faster for child categories as I ran out of time. Looking at page history it seemed to me that the category creator most often had just added this category without any other change (look this [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&target=PatrickHipes&namespace=all&tagfilter=&start=&end=2021-12-06&limit=500 edit history] and the dozens of consecutive edits with +36 byte count). So at worst removing it just restores ''statu quo ante''. Thank you for the warning, I'll double check that category structure remains coherent. However the categories for European diasporas in the U.S. are generally a mess, with duplicates, redundancy, omissions and holes all around. I plan to try and improve it some day soon. [[User:Place Clichy|Place]] ''[[User talk:Place Clichy|<span style="color:#800080;">Clichy</span>]]'' 20:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
:: mess => no doubt. Thank you for taking this on, just wanted to make sure you were aware of that potentially very useful parent category. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ! [[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] 20:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
==[[:Category:People_in_Hannover]]==
{{autotranslate|1=Category:People_in_Hannover|2=Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/12/Category:People_in_Hannover|base=Cdw}}<!-- --> [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] ! [[User talk:Jmabel|talk]] 21:29, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
== Pertinence d'une catégorie pour un seul fichier ==
Bonjour Place Clichy ! Merci d'avoir affiné les catégories sur la photo d'un panneau en huit langues que j'ai récemment téléversé. Néanmoins, je m'interroge sur la pertinence d'avoir des catégories ultraprécises qui risquent bien d'avoir un seul fichier et aucun autre, tout particulièrement [[:Category:Octolingual English-French-Georgian-Irish-Japanese-Spanish-Tongan-Welsh signs]]. Les panneaux en huit langues sont déjà très rares, mais ceux avec exactement ces huit langues-là encore plus. Pourquoi ne pas se contenter des autres catégories (déjà nombreuses) ? [[User:Skimel|Skimel]] ([[User talk:Skimel|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 02:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
:{{Re|Skimel}} c'est une question légitime. Cependant les combinaisons de multiples langues ne sont pas si rares. Au moins 3 autres fichiers ont également les langues anglais-espagnol-français-gaélique-japonais: [[:File:Multilingual sign in Dublin.jpg]], [[:File:Wikipedia portal - localized primary links and wordmark.png]], [[:File:Jimmy Carter Library and Museum 50.JPG]]. Un autre pour anglais-espagnol-français-gallois-japonais: [[:File:Truro Cathedral welcome cropped.jpg]] (dont le principe n'est pas si éloigné de celui de la gare de Nantes). Deux autres pour anglais-espagnol-français-géorgien: [[:File:Rondine (Arezzo)1.jpg]], [[:File:Barnstar of langhuages2.png]]. Il est sans doute légitime de catégoriser les panneaux ou inscriptions de 3 ou 4 langues, alors quelle est la limite raisonnable? [[User:Place Clichy|Place]] ''[[User talk:Place Clichy|<span style="color:#800080;">Clichy</span>]]'' 07:47, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
::Merci pour la réponse. Je pense que le plus intéressant seraient des catégories "octolingual signs with French language", parce que je doute que des gens cherchent des panneaux en huit langues avec à chaque fois la même combinaison de langues. La limite raisonnable me semble 4 langues, au delà ça devient trop spécifique. Mais on touche ici aux limites des catégories de Commons, qui sont unidimensionnelles et qui ne sont pas combinables entre elles... un système "Sign + 8 languages + French/Mandarin/Welsh/..." serait tellement plus pratique ! [[User:Skimel|Skimel]] ([[User talk:Skimel|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 15:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
== Re: Bilingual signs in Ireland categories ==
Why did you delete the Official Languages Act, 2003 and Pádraig Ó Cuanacháin categories from the Bilingual Signs in Ireland page last month? [[User:Darren J. Prior|Darren J. Prior]] ([[User talk:Darren J. Prior|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 02:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Re|Darren J. Prior}} I don't remember doing something linke that. Do you have a link to a specific page history for the edits that worry you? I see that some editors have simplified the category structure by removing some redundant category inclusions. I think you will find some answers at [[Commons:Categories#Over-categorization]] as to why some editors may have an issue with the way you place files in categories, and categories inside categories.
: In a nutshell, categories are only useful if content is placed at ''the most precise category location'', so it is generally not useful to place content in a category and the parents of that category. E.g. content placed in [[:Category:Irish-language signs in Ireland]] does not need to be ''also'' placed in [[:Category:Irish-language signs]] because that is already implied. Also, category loops should be avoided, e.g. <code>[[:Category:Irish-language signs]] > [[:Category:Pádraig Ó Cuanacháin]] > [[:Category:Irish-language signs]]</code>. I suggest you place a link with {{tl|Cat see also}} for categories that are related but where one is not a subset of the other.
: In the specific case of [[:Category:Bilingual signs in Ireland]], note that this does not only include English-Irish Gaelic signs (these are in [[:Category:Bilingual English-Irish signs in Ireland]]). It also has signs with other language pairs such as English and Polish (e.g. [[:File:Polski Sklep Newbridge (County Kildare) On Christmas Day 2012 (8322105556).jpg]]) or Irish and Latin (e.g. [[:File:Sign-1000383, Tralee, Co. Kerry, Ireland.jpg]]). I don't really think that there is any obvious connection between these and Pádraig Ó Cuanacháin or the Official Languages Act. [[User:Place Clichy|Place]] ''[[User talk:Place Clichy|<span style="color:#800080;">Clichy</span>]]'' 07:25, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
== Do not cross and wait isn't the same sign ==
Would you kindly double-check your edits on railway station signs? I had to revert you before already, at https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Station_Sattel-Aegeri_SOB.jpg&action=history among others. [[User:Enhancing999|Enhancing999]] ([[User talk:Enhancing999|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 12:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
: ''Kein Durchgang''/''Défense de traverser'' exactly means ''do not cross'', even if I of course agree that this passageway allows users to cross tracks once the train has stopped. [[User:Place Clichy|Place]] ''[[User talk:Place Clichy|<span style="color:#800080;">Clichy</span>]]'' 16:36, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
::If you look at [[:Category:Do not cross the railway lines-signs in Switzerland]] in detail, you will notice that all others are about a specific sign in railway stations.
::The content of the sign was already adequately identified by the categories it was in ([[:Category:Do_not_cross_signs]]), but you could obviously make a specific subcategory for it. Please refrain from redoing these edits. [[User:Enhancing999|Enhancing999]] ([[User talk:Enhancing999|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 17:42, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
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== Trilingual English-French-Marathi signs ==
Hello there, hope you're doing well. I'm writing to understand your perspective on adding the images to the [[:Category:Trilingual English-French-Marathi signs]] which do not actually contain French as a language in the sign. None of the signs in the category are trilingual and contain only English or Marathi. Let me know your thoughts. Regards - [[User:DesiBoy101|DesiBoy101]] ([[User talk:DesiBoy101|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 03:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
: {{Re|DesiBoy101}} Hello! Thanks for your question. The World Heritage logo present on each of these signs displays "''Patrimoine mondial''", which is French, next to the equivalent in English and Marathi. [[User:Place Clichy|Place]] ''[[User talk:Place Clichy|<span style="color:#800080;">Clichy</span>]]'' 03:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
::Ah, that is a nice observation because I did not realize it in the first place. So thank you for the info and adding the category. Regards - [[User:DesiBoy101|DesiBoy101]] ([[User talk:DesiBoy101|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 03:39, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
==[[:Category:Quattuordecalingual_signs]]==
{{autotranslate|1=Category:Quattuordecalingual_signs|2=Commons:Categories for discussion/2024/06/Category:Quattuordecalingual_signs|base=Cdw}}<!-- --> '''[[User:Sbb1413|Sbb1413]]''' (he) ([[User talk:Sbb1413|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sbb1413|contribs]]) 11:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
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