Wikimedia Commons

Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Skulptur-Paris-11.jpg

< Commons:Deletion requests
This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Image:Skulptur-Paris-11.jpg

edit

A private Quiz Show? Who might be this? --Mutter Erde (talk) 15:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Delete No idea who this is, but since there is no freedom of panorama in France and since there is no information about the author of the sculptures, all these should be deleted. Pruneau (talk) 15:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is an old sculpture from the Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris. Why should this and the other sculptures be deleted? They are all much over 100 years old, simply look at the clothing and the stone! Why should they be deleted? Even the fotographs are over 30 years old and I am the author.

--Mbdortmund (talk) 16:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The busts are probably old enough, but without mentioning whom they show these pics are rather useless, or? Perhaps some of the viewers are recognizing some of them. I would be happy (but normally this would be your job) Mutter Erde (talk) 16:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep The busts on the cemetery show something about the culture of the 19th century, they give an impression, how the rich families tried to conserve the pictures of there ancestors. We have many pictures of such sculptures and I believe that they tell a lot about the time. For this purpose it is absolutly not important to know the names of the people. A walk over the père Lachaise tells much about the social history of Paris. There are lots of buildings, little temples and sculptures of forgotten people, who once where important for a certain group or family. The story is not in the names but in the presentation of a certain mood, habitus, clothing etc. mfg --Mbdortmund (talk) 16:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Mutter Erde: Wie wäre es, wenn Du den Antrag zurückziehen würdest. Dass Du die Dateien für nutzlos hältst, ist nun wirklich kein Löschgrund, das ist noch nicht einmal ein Einwand bei einer QI-Kandidatur. Zudem wäre doch denkbar, dass jemand sich für Skulpturen aus dem 19. Jahrhundert auf dem Pére Lachaise interessiert und darüber einen Artikel schreibt. Dass der Name des Bildhauers unbekannt ist, dürfte ebenfalls kein Argument sein, ich weiß den Namen des Bildhauers, der das Grabmal meines Vaters gestaltet hat, auch nicht mehr. Bei Skulptur-Paris-7.jpg findest Du ein Kürzel auf dem Sockel, vielleicht kannst Du etwas damit anfangen. --Mbdortmund (talk) 19:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ich hab mal Verstärkung angefordert, bin aber nicht sicher, ob da wirklich Experten sitzen [1] und empfehle Dir irgendwo anders auch mal nachzufragen. Du weisst aber schon, dass es neben der Kaum-Brauchbarkeit (ohne die Namen der Leute kann man ja nicht einmal nach den Bildhauern suchen!) auch ein bisschen zeitlich knapp ist mit den Büsten um die Jahrhundertwende speziell in Frankreich ? Eigentlich schade, die Bilder sind ja gut. Leider fällt mir zu diesem F. Tasy? noch nichts ein. Vielleicht kann Lupo ein bisschen helfen :-). Grüsse erstmal Mutter Erde (talk) 20:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Der Name des Bildhauers scheint mir P. Gasy zu sein und den finde ich auch anderswo bei Auktionen mit dieser Signatur. --AFBorchert (talk) 16:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Das ist aus meiner Sicht keine Begründung für den Löschantrag. Ich halte die Büsten übrigens für älter. Zur namentlichen Bekanntheit von Bildhauern von Grabmalen hatte ich mich bereits geäußert, darauf bist Du nicht eingegangen. --Mbdortmund (talk) 21:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Machen wir uns nichts vor: Ohne Namen sind die Büsten so sinnvoll wie ein Schloss ohne Schlüssel, es sei denn Du wolltest zeigen, was eine Büste ist. Nur dass es dazu schon gefühlte 500+ gut beschriebene Bilder gibt. Bürgerliche Begräbniskultur in Paris kann man damit auch nicht illustrieren, weil der Rest der Luxusgräber fehlt. Und wenn Du mehr auf ein Lob für ein schönes Foto aus warst - auch das wird nichts ohne die Beschreibung. Ich schlage vor, einfach mal abzuwarten, ob jemand noch was erkennt. Ausserdem hast Du ja schon eine Behalten-Stimme. Gute Nacht Mutter Erde (talk) 22:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lass es einfach sein, dass Dir die Phantasie fehlt, was man mit den Bildern anfangen kann, ist Dein Problem und kein Löschgrund. Hast Du zu jedem Bild auf den Commons eine Artikelidee? Lass das Nerven, sonst weiß ich mich zu wehren. Ich möchte von Dir nicht belästigt werden. Punkt. --Mbdortmund (talk) 23:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep even if no names are known, these pictures are way better as an illustration of père lachaise than most of the ones now used in the german article. heaps of flowers are common on ANY cemetary, the busts aren't. --Snotty (talk) 11:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Usefulness isn't really enough to be included on Commons; the important question is: are these photos free of rights? There are many photos of sculptures in the Père Lachaise of which we know that they are in the public domain: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12... I am aware that the sculptures we are discussing were likely made in the 19th century, but that doesn't imply that they are PD. w:Camille Claudel, fr:Albert Desenfans, w:Aristide Maillol and fr:Victor Rousseau all made sculptures during the 19th century that are not PD because they died less than 70 years ago. With the information we currently have, we honestly can't be certain that the sculptures are PD. We should either try to find out more about them or delete the images. Pruneautalk 12:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Updated vote: Thanks to the research of Carl below, I suggest  Delete to Image:Skulptur-Paris-7.jpg,  Keep and {{PD-EU-no author disclosure}} for Image:Skulptur-Paris-11.jpg, and  Delete for the remaining images as long we have no further infos. I agree that it would be a pity to lose these images in respect to their specific value if some of the busts have been stolen since then. I am not an expert of French law but perhaps it is possible to publish such images under a CC-SA-AT-NC license somewhere else. Fair use will not work out, I am afraid, as long there is no actual use and an associated rationale for it which explains why this image cannot be easily replaced by another one. --AFBorchert (talk) 18:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I contacted the author of a blog[2] in the hope he may recognize some of these, and did get some information (many thanks). Image:Skulptur-Paris-11.jpg is of Frédéric Cournet (1837-1885) in Division 95 of the Père Lachaise cemetery. Apparently, the sculptor is unknown.[3] I did find a 1913 book here on Google Books which lists a lot of the graves and sculptors; Cournet's entry (page 256) does not have a sculptor listed. Since it appears that no sculptor is credited on the statue, I would say to  Keep that one as either {{Anonymous-EU}} or {{PD-EU-no author disclosure}}, as it was put up in about 1885.
The same book (page 258 under section "T") says that "P. Gasq" is the sculptor for Tony-Noël's bust in Division 35; this also ties in from the answers I got. Edée Antony Paul Noël (I also see references to Edmé Antony Paul Noël, not sure which is correct) was apparently a French sculptor (1845-1909). Noël was actually the sculptor for a couple of other busts in the same cemetery (dating from 1879-1880).
The blog author was unsure about the other one, but believes it is no longer at the cemetery. Apparently in late 2006/early 2007 there was a string of thefts of busts from several Paris cemeteries including Père Lachaise. The thieves were caught but not all the busts were recovered (and the gravesites of some recovered busts were not known); this may have been one of them. It does unfortunately appear to be a more modern bust (as of 1978 anyways). It would be a shame to lose these other photos (they are really nice, and could actually be helpful in showing the location of a lost bust). Could they be transferred over to en-wiki and/or fr-wiki, and used there under fair use? Carl Lindberg (talk) 18:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or to de-Wikipedia making use of the "Panoramafreiheit". --Mbdortmund (talk) 19:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, interesting, I didn't knew that but found a passage conforming that such images are indeed tolerated on de-wikipedia. I guess that such a transfer is most likely the best approach to save these images. --AFBorchert (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted. All deleted under COM:PRP absent any indication that they are old enough, per discussion above. Plenty of time has elapsed now for them to have been transferred elsewhere.MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Image:Skulptur-Paris-11.jpg&oldid=731132897"