View source for Talk:The Tales of Hoffmann

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==Moving the Page==
I have been trying to re-name this ''The Tales of Hoffmann'' but I've been having problems! I succeed in moving the film ''The Tales of Hoffmann'' to ''The Tales of Hoffmann (film)'' but that's about it! [[User:Kleinzach|Kleinzach]] 00:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

*You can only move a page if the target page does not exist, or if it were the previous name of the article and ''has never been edited since the move'' which is not the case here. If you really want to move the page, the you should follow the procedure described at [[Wikipedia:Requested_moves]] for it requires the help of an admin. I personally do not think that it is a necessary move (though I would not oppose it if you listed it on requested moves), for the article is at his original name, which is official policy regarding operas. I know that if there is a widely used english name (and this is the case here) the english name cand/should be used. But with the redirects actually in place, someone searching for the ''The Tales of Hoffmann'' would be directed on this page. If you moved the page this would just change the situation. So this represents quite a buraucratic work for almost no change. PS: very appropriate username for this page... [[User:Glaurung|Glaurung]] 07:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem here was that 'The Tales of Hoffmann' pointed to the (minor) film rather than the major (opera). I moved the film to 'The Tales of Hoffmann (film)' and for consistency (in line with the editing policy as explained at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera]]) tried to move 'Les contes d'Hoffmann' to 'The Tales of Hoffmann' with suitable redirects - but seem to have created technical problems.

Personally I don't like anglicized names (I don't use them on my own opera site) so my attitude to this is similar to yours, however I am concerned that the redirects work properly.  

[[User:Kleinzach|Kleinzach]] 17:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
*The redirects seem to work properly. [[The Tales of Hoffmann]] redirects here. [[User:Glaurung|Glaurung]] 07:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at this.

[[User:Kleinzach|Kleinzach]] 14:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

==Noted Arias==

I wonder whether it would be better to have these in the order they appear in the opera? In other words From Act 1 to Act 3 etc. --[[User:Kleinzach|Kleinzach]] 08:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
:done :) - [[User:Whjayg|Jay]] 09:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

== Title revisited ==

I know this has been discussed a bit above, but I thought it might be worth noting that [[WP:UE|this guideline]] suggests English titles are preferable where possible, so I'm wondering if "Tales of Hoffman]] might be the more appropriate title for this article. I hear both the English and the French used commonly, and would therefore lean toward using the English title per the guideline above. [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(talk)]] 09:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:According to the Opera Project list at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/English names]] this one did meet the criteria for using the English title, and it was so listed. I'm not sure when the title was changed back to the French. Having said that, the redirect from [[The Tales of Hoffmann]] solves any practical problems. Best. -- [[User:Kleinzach|Kleinzach]] 11:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
::Yes, true, but still, the guideline I cite suggests using English titles as the primary one (i.e., the one you see when reading the article). I may put in a [[WP:RM|requested move]] soon to see if there's any consensus. [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(talk)]] 08:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

==Requested move==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the proposal was '''PAGE MOVED''' per discussion below. -[[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]]<sup>([[User talk:GTBacchus|talk]])</sup> 21:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
<hr/>
[[Les contes d&#39;Hoffmann]] → [[The Tales of Hoffman]] — It's been discussed on this page a few times, and I thought I'd go ahead and suggest it. [[WP:UE|Our naming conventions]] suggest that an English title be used, if possible, and this is one of those relatively rare operas with a common English name, suggesting to me it should be the title of the article. —[[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(talk)]] 05:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Wikipedia's naming conventions]].''

*'''Support'''. Customary. I see no reason to use French for one Offenbach operetta; we use [[Orpheus in the Underworld]]. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 04:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' since ''Hoffmann'' and ''Orpheus'' are the (only) two Offenbach titles usually translated.  Those who don't translate them (like ''New Grove'') usually hardly translate any European language titles (e.g., ''Tod und Verklärung'') that Wikipedia normally does. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="color:#fef; background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</span>]]</span> 16:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

* The naming conventions ''don't'' say we should use a non-local "English" version just because it exists ([[Ratisbon]]? [[Coblence]]? [[Leghorn]]? [[Trento|Trent]]?)- it says we should use the most commonly used term in English, whatever it is.  Even if it is of local origin, what is more English than what English uses most?  Anyway, I have always heard of this referred to as "Tales of Hoffmann".  I would be swayed by good evidence either way, but I would be surprised if the original French title is also the most used in English. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 15:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

==Hoffma'''nn''', not Hoffman==
Whether we use the French title or the English title, Hoffma'''<u>nn</u>''' has two n's.  The page needs to be moved again.  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 12:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:Yep. Please let's move it. --[[User:Folantin|Folantin]] ([[User talk:Folantin|talk]]) 08:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

== Language ==

What language is the libretto in?[[User:Kdammers|Kdammers]] ([[User talk:Kdammers|talk]]) 13:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
:French - [[User:Whjayg|Jay]] ([[User talk:Whjayg|talk]]) 16:09, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

== Act 2 and 3 ==
I switched Act 2 to 3, and 3 to 2 (Guiletta 's act is Act 2, while Craspel's in Act 3) - [[User:Whjayg|Jay]] ([[User talk:Whjayg|talk]]) 17:22, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

:Hello, Jay - nice to see you back here.  If you look at the section near the top of the article entitled "The different editions of the opera", you'll see that there's no consensus on the order of the acts.  The Antonia act is often performed third because the music is better (and that's what they did at Covent Garden when I saw it there a year ago), but Offenbach's intention was to have the Giulietta act third.  From the dramatic point of view, that makes more sense, as some of the music from that act is reprised in the Epilogue which follows immediately.  Maybe the synopsis (whichever way the acts are arranged) should make this clear, e.g. "Act 2 (sometimes performed as Act 3)" and the reverse for Act 3.  Best --[[User:GuillaumeTell|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b>]][[User talk:GuillaumeTell|<i style="color:blue;">Tell</i>]] 18:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
:: According to Jacques Offenbach and the librettist there has never been an oder Olympia - Giulietta - Antonia. Also the theater play by Barbier and Carré had the order Olympia - Antonia - Giulietta. The chaotic situation after Offenbach´s death and Carvalho´s changes caused confusion about the order of the acts. In the Antonia act there is a clear reference to the preceding Olympia act when Niklaus/the Muse mocks Hoffmann for having fallen to an automatic machine. 
A few renowned directors, though, have chosen the differing order. For recent European productions see www.offenbach-hoffmann.de where a diverging order of the acts is noted. 
Olympia - Giulietta - Antonia: one might argue that Hoffmann´s first infatuation with a doll was a mishap, he then turns to a prostitute and is cheated, but finally makes a serious attempt to establish a relationship.
Olympia - Antonia - Giulietta: having been deceived by a mechanical doll, Hoffmann plans to marry Antonia. When she prefers a career as a singer he finally seeks his luck with a courtesan. 
I think the original order of the acts makes more sense. If a director chooses to change the original order of the two acts and justifies the decision, why not. This opera is so frequently misunderstood and turned into a farce that a meaningful interpretation with a reversed order of the acts is preferable to a farce with the original order. [[User:Ontologix|Ontologix]] ([[User talk:Ontologix|talk]]) 20:14, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

The article says that the order (& names) of the acts is often varied and that there is no "correct" ordering, so why does the article then go on to number them? -- [[User:SteveCrook|SteveCrook]] ([[User talk:SteveCrook|talk]]) 13:22, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
:What's the alternative? Just call them by their female main character? -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 13:57, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
::Seems reasonable. Most people I know who talk about it refer to the Antonia segment or the Giulietta segment -- [[User:SteveCrook|SteveCrook]] ([[User talk:SteveCrook|talk]]) 16:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
::: Since Josef Heinzelmann discovered the original libretto that had been handed in to the censors there can be no doubt about the correct order: Olympia - Antonia - Giulietta. [[User:Ontologix|Ontologix]] ([[User talk:Ontologix|talk]]) 14:20, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

==sources and role table==
thank you for the correction on sources; Ernest Newman claims that the character of Pitichinaccio comes from ''Signor Formica'' in ''The Serapion Brethren''(?)

I would like to propose that, to correct some discrepancies in the current table, and to allow creators of roles in the Venice act to be named, the table be amended to this (I also added chorus):

====Roles====
{| class="wikitable"
!Role
![[Voice type]]
!Premiere cast, February 10, 1881<br />([[Conducting|Conductor]]: [[Jules Danbé]])
!Complete with 'Giulietta Act',<br>7 December 1881<br>(Conductor: -)
|-
|Andrès, Cochenille, Frantz
|[[tenor]]
|[[Pierre Grivot]]
|
|-
|Pitichinaccio
|[[tenor]]
| 
|
|-
|Antonia, ''a young girl''
|[[soprano]]
|[[Adèle Isaac]]
|
|-
|Crespel,'' Antonia's father''
|[[bass (voice type)|bass]]
|Hypolite Belhomme	
|
|-
|Giulietta, ''a courtesan''
|soprano
|
|
|-
|Hermann, ''a student''
|bass
|Teste
|
|-
|Hoffmann, ''a poet''
|tenor
|[[Jean-Alexandre Talazac]]
|
|-
|Lindorf, Coppélius, Miracle
|[[bass-baritone]]
|[[Émile-Alexandre Taskin]]
|
|-
|Dapertutto
|[[bass-baritone]]
| 
|
|-
|Luther 
|bass
|Troy
|
|-
|Nathanaël, ''a student''
|tenor
|Chenevières
|
|-
|Nicklausse, ''the muse'' 
|[[mezzo-soprano]]
|[[Marguerite Ugalde]]
|
|- 
|Olympia, ''a mechanical doll''
|soprano
|Adèle Isaac
|
|- 
|Peter Schlémil, ''in love with Giulietta''
|bass
| 
|
|-
|Spalanzani, ''an inventor''
|tenor
|E. Gourdon
|
|-
|Stella, ''a singer''
|soprano
|Adèle Isaac
|
|-
|Voice of the mother of Antonia 
|soprano
|Dupuis
|
|-
|colspan="4"|''Students, Guests''
|}
[[User:Cg2p0B0u8m|Cg2p0B0u8m]] ([[User talk:Cg2p0B0u8m|talk]]) 16:51, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

:We often put revision casts into these tables, so that's fine, however I think it would be a good idea to explain it in the text. Normally we have a whole section on 'Performance history' (distinct from 'revision history') but that's missing here. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 01:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

== E.T.A. Hoffmann sources for the play and libretto ==
In fact more than the three named works by Hoffmann were used in composing the play and libretto. Elements can be found in Don Juan (= Don Giovanni) and Klein Zaches, genannt Zinnober. Possibly Don Juan inspired Barbier and Carré to compose the play. [[User:Ontologix|Ontologix]] ([[User talk:Ontologix|talk]]) 16:48, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

== Venice act ==

I fully believe this took a bit to get in, but very early press illustrations include this act. Any idea what date, exactly, it came in? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup></span> 13:36, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
*I wonder if there is a mistake on Gallica and in fact the picture is of the 1851 play? [[User:Cg2p0B0u8m|Cg2p0B0u8m]] ([[User talk:Cg2p0B0u8m|talk]]) 16:31, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
* It seems to fit a lot of specific details, like the gondola Giulietta left on in early performances. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup></span> 05:01, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't think the act was performed in Paris for the rest of the century, which is why the 1904 Monte Carlo production was important. It was seen briefly in Vienna, and possibly in the places listed in the last paragraph of the Performance History. If the artist did die in 1880 he was either imagining it or depicting the play. [[User:Cg2p0B0u8m|Cg2p0B0u8m]] ([[User talk:Cg2p0B0u8m|talk]]) 20:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
::Died circa 1880 is perfectly consistent with him still being alive in 1881. And that presumes I've correctly identified the signature.  Also, the article says the Giulietta act was performed late 1881, but then a fire struck which delayed further performances to 1904.
:::the fire was the Vienna [[Ringtheater]] in December. I suppose he could have been there if he was a travelling specialist in theatrical illustration. [[User:Cg2p0B0u8m|Cg2p0B0u8m]] ([[User talk:Cg2p0B0u8m|talk]]) 22:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
::I don't think we should presume it's the play without actual evidence of such, e.g. that the scene fits specific details in the play that were not in early operatic performances. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup></span> 22:05, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
:::No of course we must not guess, but given the lack of an operatic Venice act in Paris during the artist's lifetime, it must be a possibility, unless he imagined it from conversations with Barbier and Offenbach before Carvalho interfered. [[User:Cg2p0B0u8m|Cg2p0B0u8m]] ([[User talk:Cg2p0B0u8m|talk]]) 22:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
::::But Offenbach died in 1880, so that's not saying much. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8437110s/f1.item.r=contes%20d'hoffmann provides fairly strong backing for the first image of the set being accurate - there's the usual compressions and simplifications that engravings tend to have, but that's clearly the same set. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90086567.r=contes+d'hoffmann.langEN and http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84371094.r=contes+d'hoffmann.langEN are also similar, providing decent evidence for at least one of the three. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup></span> 11:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
:::::Don't get me wrong. I do appreciate the need to defend the point. It's important to get this right. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup></span> 11:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
::::::I don't know what to add...  1851=premiere of the play by Barbier and Carré; May 1879=private concert performance of main extracts; 1880 possible death of artist; Feb 1881 posthumous premiere at Opéra-Comique without Venice act; Dec 1881 two performances in Vienna with Venice act;  The Gallica page is a selection of Hoffmann illustrations; maybe the original source for the Lamy is needed? [[User:Cg2p0B0u8m|Cg2p0B0u8m]] ([[User talk:Cg2p0B0u8m|talk]]) 18:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I personally would say that having the same set as other opera illustrations is ample evidence. Otherwise, we're presuming a 30-year storage of the prologue set and it being reused at a different theatre, by a different company.   <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup></span> 22:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

== Editions ==

Why are there no notes to direct people to the various editions mentioned in the Editions section? Was the joint project to be published in 2011 published? Can the autograph music that was found later be accessed? [[Special:Contributions/98.14.15.215|98.14.15.215]] ([[User talk:98.14.15.215|talk]]) 20:14, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

==Reviews==
Why did somebody delete the link to the page www.offenbach-hoffmann.de? This is the page that has so far reviewed over 100 different productions of this opera? No other page worldwide offers a similar overview of current productions. [[User:Ontologix|Ontologix]] ([[User talk:Ontologix|talk]]) 08:03, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
:When I removed that link on 29 September 2016, it was dead. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 13:09, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
:: The page is alive and kicking and has been reviewing dozens of European productions between Norway and Austria since Sep 2016. The latest review dates from Nov 2017. I visited the page frequently in the past years and never found it offline. Latest review www.myway.de/hoffmann/1718-flensburg.html Is user Bednarek aware that a page can be offline for a limited time when it is being updated? Did you retry a little later? Are we seeing a case of vandalism by Bednarek here? Just put the link back in or produce another similar page.([[User:Ontologix|Ontologix]] ([[User talk:Ontologix|talk]]) 03:33, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

== Featured picture scheduled for POTD ==

Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture [[:File:Pierre-Auguste Lamy (?) - Les contes d'Hoffmann by Jacques Offenbach, Giulietta act.jpg]], which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Picture of the day|picture of the day]] (POTD) for September 23, 2021. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at [[Template:POTD/2021-09-23]]. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the [[Main Page]].  If you have any concerns, please place a message at [[Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day]]. Thank you! [[User:Cwmhiraeth|Cwmhiraeth]] ([[User talk:Cwmhiraeth|talk]]) 09:56, 8 September 2021 (UTC) <!-- Template:UpcomingPOTD -->
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== Featured picture scheduled for POTD ==

Hello! This is to let editors know that [[:File:Pierre-Auguste Lamy (?) - Les contes d'Hoffmann by Jacques Offenbach, Olympia act.jpg]], a [[Wikipedia:Featured pictures|featured picture]] used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Picture of the day|picture of the day]] (POTD) for December 31, 2021. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at [[Template:POTD/2021-12-31]]. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the [[Main Page]].  If you have any concerns, please place a message at [[Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day]]. Thank you! [[User:Cwmhiraeth|Cwmhiraeth]] ([[User talk:Cwmhiraeth|talk]]) 14:31, 24 December 2021 (UTC) <!-- Template:UpcomingPOTD -->
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== Not completed? ==

In the article about Offenbach, it is stated that the work was not completed (i.e., not completed during his life-time).  This article about the opera reads as if he did in fact complete it. Some clarification and co-ordination would help. [[User:Kdammers|Kdammers]] ([[User talk:Kdammers|talk]]) 00:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

:I was just coming to post that!  It certainly sounds like it was completed. [[User:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz|Mr Serjeant Buzfuz]] ([[User talk:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz|talk]]) 05:02, 15 July 2024 (UTC)