View source for User talk:Debresser/Archive 5

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== Merger (redux) ==

It would be great if you could merge these
:{{Tl|Wireless systems}}
:{{Tl|Mobile telecommunications standards}}
Now that the TFD has been closed as merge.  You could probably enlist the help of the other editors who voted to merge.  Let me know if there is a problem. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 23:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
: Should I revise the close to keep? [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 20:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
:: I have [[User_talk:Kozuch#Help_in_merging|contacted]] the only editor I could find who had edited both templates and is presently active on Wikipedia, but he hasn't replied yet. I myself am certainly not knowledgable in the subject to be able to merge this on my own. Even though the discussions show that the templates are supposed to be almost identical, I do not see this. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
::: In that case, I suppose they will not be merged.  Thanks! [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 05:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

== Yazidi and monotheism ==

'''Slight misunderstanding''' I was simply removing redundant categories. Since [[:Category:Yazidi]] is already a subcategory of [[:Category:Monotheistic religions]], I was streamlining the organization of information rather than making a theological statement. My recollection is that Yazidis have (like e.g. Zoroastrians) a number of divine beings, but with one ontologically separate deity. But what do I know? Your question is a perfectly legitimate one for [[Talk:Yazidi]], though. If you need to respond, please do so on my talk. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (koavf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 17:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
:'''Duplicate categories''' Sure. I was simply using the example of [[Christianity]] and [[Bahá'í Faith]], which are in minimal categories. Certainly, either of those articles could be in (e.g.) [[:Category:Monotheistic religions]] or [[:Category:Abrahamic religions]], but they aren't. Why, I'm not entirely sure, but it's true. My general rule of thumb is to delete redundant categories, but you correctly point out a (entirely understandable) ambiguity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (koavf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 19:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
::'''RfC?''' I completely see what you're saying. At the same time, once we start adding these categories to these pages, it is inevitable that there will be back-and-forths and inconsistencies abounding. I simply noticed that there were only three (as I recall) articles in [[:Category:Monotheistic religions]] as well as a parent category within it as well, so the easiest thing to do was to remove that category from the articles, rather than add it to the dozen or so pages that didn't already have it. If you want others' feedback on this&mdash;which, again is entirely reasonable&mdash;then [[WP:RfC|RfC]] might be the best option? I have tried posting to the talk page of various WikiProjects for feedback like this, but I have not had much luck. As should be clear from this post, I simply don't know what to do, but I am a big believer in consistency. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (koavf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 19:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
:::'''Of course''' If you take it there, I'll be happy to chip in (although I have to confess that I might forget...) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (koavf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 19:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

== Brazil ==

Hello! Please, I need your help to deal with an issue that has appeared in the article about [[Brazil]]. See it [[Talk:Brazil#Biased information by user Opinoso|in here]]. Thank you very much. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 19:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello, Debresser! I hope you don´t mind if I make a few comments about what you wrote in the Brazil discussion page:

# POV language. '''Comment:''' '''Agree.'''
# Rephrase to "was killed in the war or feel to famine and illnesses". '''Comment:''' ''Is it really necessary to put casualties from a minor rebellion that did not have any true consequence in the history of the country? For example, the famine that happened in the dry years of 1877-78 in the Brazilian Northeast killed 500,000 people. That´s not mentioned in the article and is rarely mentioned in history books! Do you really believe it should be here? Shouldn´t be in the according article about such rebellion? And one last thing: I checked some of my books and 20% of the province's population died, not between 30-40%. I do not know why user Opinoso insists on putting information that are not entirely correct. Is like he simply selects a few and take it out of the context to please his own will of proving his point.''
# Should not be here. '''Comment:''' '''Agree.'''
# This is a factual contradiction. decide based upon external sources. If both parties have a source, include both statements. '''Comment:''' '' User Opinoso has put a book as source, but no page. Strange enough, he uses such book as source for almost anything he writes. The authors that I used are the most renowned Brazilian and British historians. It doesn´t make sense to use as sources books written by an unknown writer instead of a renowned professional in the field. And i took great care to '''use several different authors''' and not only one as you can see on the text.''
# Relevant short mention can be kept. '''Comment:''' '''Ok...'''
# Seems factual correct, because it means "per period", not in absolute terms. So this is a relevant short mention and can be kept. '''Comment:''' ''Why should exist so much text about slavery when other important facts were kept aside, such as politics, sciences, arts, etc? I think it belongs to the article Slavery in Brazil.''
# Is relevant, but if figures are not mentioned for other periods, then neither should it be done here. '''Comment:''' ''Agree. It belongs to the article slavery in Brazil.''
# Very relevant short mention should be kept. '''Comment:''' ''To much text about slavery in the history section. See no reason for such when so many other info was kept aside.''
# Is this sourced? Even if it is, too detailed.'''Comment:''' ''Agree. Shouldn´t be in here. It is already on the article about Pedro II''
# Incorrect. '''Comment:''' '''Agree.''' - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 20:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you for reacting. I'll update my opinions there. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

== Brazil (how section should be) ==

Hello, my friend. Sorry to bother you once again. This is how I believe the section should be: simple and straightforward. It is also smaller and easier to read, with no possible controversial passage. I put an "see also: slavery on Brazil" banner so that the more detailed info can be found in the apropriate article. You may erase it after you read it but I would like to known your thoughts on it. 

=== Emperor Pedro II reign ===
{{Main|Pedro II of Brazil}}
{{Seealso|Slavery in Brazil}}
[[Image:Pedro II of Brazil 1853.jpg|thumb|right|220px|Emperor [[Pedro II of Brazil|Dom Pedro II]] at age 27, 1853. For "the longevity of his government and the transformations that occurred in its course, no other Head of State has marked more deeply the history of the country."<ref>Carvalho (2007), p.9</ref>]]
As the new emperor could not exert his constitutional prerogatives as Emperor ([[Politics of the Empire of Brazil#Executive branch|Executive]] and [[Politics of the Empire of Brazil#Moderating branch|Moderating Power]]) until he reached majority, a [[Regent|regency]] was created.<ref>Carvalho 2007, p.21</ref> Disputes between political factions that led to rebellions resulted in an unstable, almost anarchical, regency.<ref name="Dohlnikoff, p.206">Dohlnikoff, p.206</ref> The rebellious factions, however, continued to uphold the throne of Pedro II as a way of giving the appearance of legitimacy to their actions (that is, they were not in revolt against the monarchy). The [[Cabanagem]]<ref name="Carvalho 2007, p.43"/> the [[Sabinada]]<ref name="Carvalho 2007, p.43">Carvalho (2007), p.43</ref> and the [[Balaiada]],<ref name="Carvalho 2007, p.43"/><ref>Souza, p.326</ref> all followed this course, even though some declared the secession of the provinces as independent republics (but only so long as Pedro II was a minor).<ref>Janotti, p.171 "No Pará, [...] declarou-se que a província não reconheceria o Governo da Regência durante a menoridade do Imperador (1835); começava a ''Cabanagem'', para durar até 1840." and p.172 "explodia em novembro de 1837 a ''Sabinada'' que, declarava-se em ''Estado Republicano Independente'' [...], limitava o tempo da separação até o advento da maioridade de D. Pedro II."</ref> The "generation of politicians who had come to power in the 1830s, following upon the abdication of Pedro I, had learned from bitter experience the difficulties and dangers of government. By 1840  they had lost all faith in their ability to rule the country on their own. They accepted Pedro II as an authority figure whose presence was indispensable for the country's survival."<ref>Barman, p.317</ref>

Thus, Pedro II was prematurely declared of age and “Brazil was to enjoy nearly half a century of internal peace and rapid material progress.”<ref>Munro, p.273</ref> From then "onward the Empire’s stability and prosperity when compared to the turmoil and poverty of the Spanish American republics gave ample proof” of the emperor’s successful government<ref>Barman (1999), p.307</ref> Brazil also won three international wars during his long reign of 58 years ([[Platine War]],<ref>Lyra (v.1),p.164</ref> [[Uruguayan War]]<ref>Lyra (v.1),p.225</ref> and [[War of the Triple Alliance]]).<ref>Lyra (v.1),p.272</ref> The emperor, who never owned slaves,<ref>Barman (1999), p.194</ref> also led the abolitionist campaign<ref>Lyra (v.3), pp.29-30</ref> that eventually extinguished slavery after a slow but steady process that went from the end of international traffic in 1850<ref> Lyra (v.1), p.166</ref> up to the complete abolition in 1888.<ref>Lyra (v.3), p.62</ref> However, he "took too long to trespass the political obstacles”<ref>Schwarcz, p.315</ref> and Brazil became the last american country to abolish slavery.<ref>Bueno, p.218</ref> Slavery had been for decades in decline: in 1823, 29% of the Brazilian population were slaves; it fell to 24% in 1854; then to 15,2% in 1872;<ref>Vainfas, p.239</ref> and finally to less than 5% in 1887.<ref>Vainfas, p.18</ref>

Brazil was a “prosperous and [internationally] respected” country<ref>Lima, p.87</ref> when the monarchy was overthrown in November 15, 1889.<ref>Munro, p.280</ref> There was no desire in Brazil (at least among the majority of its population) to change the [[form of government]]<ref>Ermakoff, p.189 "Não havia, portanto, clamor pela mudança do regime de governo, exceto alguns gritos de "Viva a República", entoados por pequenos grupos de militantes à espreita da passagem da carruagem imperial."</ref> and Pedro II was on the height of his popularity among his subjects.<ref>Schwarcz, p.444</ref><ref>Vainfas, p.201</ref> Pedro II, however, “bore prime, perhaps sole, responsibility for his own overthrown.”<ref>Barman (1999), p.399</ref> After the death of his two male sons, he believed that “the imperial regime was destined to end with him.”<ref>Barman (1999), p.130</ref> The emperor did not care about its fate<ref>Lyra (v.3), p.126</ref><ref>Barman (1999), p.361</ref> and did nothing (nor allowed anyone) to prevent the military coup<ref>Lyra (v.3), p.99</ref> that was backed by former slave owners that resented the abolition of slavery.<ref>Schwarcz, pp.450 and 457</ref> The monarchist reaction after the fall of the empire “was not small and even less its repression”.<ref>Salles, p.194</ref>

:Sorry, I didn´t mean to be rude back there. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 11:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

=== Reply ===

I think you should work it out with the help of other editors, including those who disagree with you. That makes an article balancedand interesting. This is too... positive. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

:Look, I really need your help on this one. I had never had trouble before so I don´t know what to do about this Opinoso guy. I sent him a message trying to make peace and telling him that we should exchange ideas between ourselves and reach a point that could please both. He simply ignored my message. He wrote a large text on the discussion page of article Brazil accusing and attacking for no reason. I made changes to the text once again (as you can see above). I erased many passages that I had wrote and improved some of Opinoso´s own. Read the the second paragraph of the section and you will see. If you want to see the changes, [[Talk:Brazil#New change on the text|see here]]. I try to use several different sources so that I can make it clear a point (like the economic growth). All he does is use this "Darcy Ribeiro" as source. He says that my sources cannot be proven, while he doens´t say anything about his own! Take a look in there, please. You can clearly see that he has some problem with the monarchy era in Brazil and his motives are personnal, not motivated by historical reasons. I don´t know what to do. I want to work now on the text about the Republic, but I cant´until I resolve this matter. But how to do that with only one user that doens´t want to dialogue and keeps attacking me and clearly accuses me of bad faith? - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 01:04, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

=== Issues with Opinoso's sources ===

#  Hello, Debresser. I have trouble in accepting a pssage written by Opinoso that you said that was important to stay: ''"The reign of Pedro II was the period that Brazil imported the largest numbers of slaves from Africa, and in 1864 as many as 1,715,000 people were living under slavery in Brazil"''

:According to Opinoso, he got the information from [[http://www.ibge.gov.br/brasil500/tabelas/negros_regioes.htm| here]]. The problem is that the only thing that the website gives are statistics about the Brazilian population on the year 1864, 1874, 1884 and 1887. '''Nowhere it is said that Pedro II reign was the period when most slaves were imported'''. Just click on the link, even if don´t understand Portuguese you will be able to read it, because it´s only numbers. 

:Not only Opinoso "'''made up'''" an information that the sources does '''not''' tell, he also conveniently chose as an example of how many slaves lived in Brazil the year 1864 where it says 1,715,000 slaves. He didn´t pick the other years 1874 (1,540,829 slaves), 1884 (1,240,806 slaves) or 1887 (723,419 slaves). As you can see, he chose only the information that could "prove" his point.

:What I wrote (and that he undone) I put: "Slavery had been for decades in decline: in 1823, 29% of the Brazilian population were slaves; it fell to 24% in 1854; then to 15,2% in 1872; and finally to less than 5% in 1887." That is data from the independence of Brazil until the end of Slavery. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 12:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

#  ''"but against the uneven social structure that '''it''' imposed"'' - According to Opinoso, his source says that the Monarchy was guilty of creating and imposing an uneven social structure. His source is a book written by Darcy Ribeiro, a sociologist (he is not even a historian!) called "O Povo Brasileiro" (The Brazilian People). I have found an [[http://www.portalsaofrancisco.com.br/alfa/darcy-ribeiro/o-povo-brasileiro.php|online]] version of it and searched for his source. If you click on page six you'll see below a chapter called "AS GUERRAS DO BRASIL" where the author briefly discuss three Brazilian rebellions: Palmares (Colony), Cabanagem (Empire) and Canudos (Republic). He says about Cabanagem:

:''Assim, a luta dos Cabanos, contendo, embora, tensões inter-raciais (brancos versus caboclos), ou classistas (senhores versus serviçais), era, em essência, um conflito interétnico, porque ali uma etnia disputava a hegemonia, querendo dar sua imagem étnica à sociedade.'' 
:Translation: ''"So, the cabano struggle, having, however, inter-racial tensions (white versus caboclos), or classists (masters versus servants(, it was, in essence, an inter-ethnic conflict, because there an ethnicity disputed the hegemony, wanting to give its own ethnicity image to the society."''

:Nowhere does Darcy Bibeiro mentions issues against monarchy, but conclicts in that particular regional society in Brazil. He tries to make also a paralel between that rebellion and Palmares and Canudos, which is not our focus in here. The book is not even a history one. He barely mention the Empire and some pages are geared toward the colony. Most of it, however, focus in what the author sees as a constant war between afro-brazilians and whites. As you can see, Opinoso is not even faithful to his own source.  - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 15:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

:: Confront him with this on the talkpage. Then see what he replies. Perhaps he had something in mind you overlooked. If he didn't, then undoubtebly other editors will agree with you. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 19:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

:::I did that. He simply mocked me saying that he had a real life or something like that. Take a look on what I also wrote in [[Talk:Brazil#Pedro II and his reign viewed by foreign and Brazilian historians|here]]. I am putting some of my sources so that everyone can see by themselves. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 19:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

:::: I see now. Ok, now wait for the guy to come back from his date. Another day is not much. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

::::: He already did, as he created another section with a request to other editor to comment. Now he is trying to evade my claims and is accusing me of blanking the older text. I was looking on his discussion page and I saw that this is not the first time he participate on edit wars and serious discussions. I will wait but I am expecting something ugly out of him. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 20:35, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

:::::: Good. Keep the discussion open. If his - or your - claims are unsubstantial, that will show. Nobody will do anything "ugly", because that would lead to sanctions. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

::::::He keeps insinuating that I have bad faith. I am tired of that. Did you see that he is ignoring the fact that he faked infromation to prove his point and now he is trying to simply revert to the older text so that everyone can forget about it? Read my reply to him, please. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 00:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

=== About the issue in the article about Brazil ===

Hello, Debresser. I would like to thank you for your patience on that matter. I know it gets tired after a while. I am going to travel and I'll be back on tuesday. So, please, until then, hold that guy and prevent him from doing further damage.

About the matter, I would like to make a few comments. Opinoso is not there because he is defending the inclusion of historical information into the article. he is there simply to cause trouble and because he will not accept to "lose" (which is childsh, in my opinion, as we are not in here to win, just to contribute). I read almost all the book written by Darcy Ribeiro and none of his claims are in there. About poverty and stagnation in other Brazilian provinces, all I saw was that Ribeiro said that after the U.S. Civil War the province of Pernambuco grew economicaly. Pernambuco is one of the areas that according to Opinoso was stagnated. Or Darcy Ribeiro contradicted himself or once again Opinoso is faking information. Anyway, the information that he faked must be removed, that's a fact. I don´t believe he will back down, unless other editors tell him to stop the disruption that he is causing. I don´t think that will happen and meanwhile, as you must have noticed, Opinoso keeps attacking my integrity trying to evade from the misdeed he commited. So, wait for my until tuesday. Best regards, - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 16:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

:Im back. The reason I did not answer why I changed the old text was becaue I simply refuse to care to what Opinoso cares, as he has already revealed that he cannot be trusted. As I've noticed that at least another editor asked for clarification, I'll explain it everything. And I have seen that he reverted the text without bothering with the discussion still going on. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 15:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

:: He has. I am no linger impartial to this conflict, since I dislike [[User:Opinoso]]'s behavior in this conflict. Therefore I can not help any more as an uninvolved third party. I am still around as a watchdog, though. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 17:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Don´t worry. I will explain everything, piece by piece, with great care, and why I have improved the text. However, Opinoso will not stop until other editors tell him to. I have found another of his '''frauds''', though. In the Republic era text (not the text that is is now, but the one he reverted that had my contributions), he wrote down (as usual according to Darcy Ribeiro) that the landowners that "ruled" during the Empire forced the ex-slaves to depart to cities and then live in the "favelas". However, in the book written by Dacy Ribeiro, it says that the demographic explosion (during the 1920s-1940s) in the Brazilian cities compelled Afro-Brazilians (the ones who had low income) to move into the "favelas". He has no respect at all with sources and will do anything to prove his point. I was surprised to see that he accused me of creating fake editors to support me. That is so absurd that it could be proven simply by checking the IP. Well, it will take me some time to write it down everything, as the discussion has gone way to far, but I will not give up. Everything he wrote has lies attached to it. That has to end, and it has to end now. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 17:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

:::I just read what Opinoso wrote in the discussion page. While I put historians' view of Pedro II reign, Opinoso put his grandmother's opinion. I can't believe that I am losing my time with this guy! It is clear not only that he is dishonest but also that he does '''not''' know anything about history. Check it out! While I write down historian views, he does '''not''' do the same. He simply gives his personal opinion and accuses me of giving my personal opinion. What?! I can´t fight back so much nonsense! - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 17:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

=== Issue with sources used by Opinoso, part 2 ===

Debresser, I am reading carefully the sociology book “the Brazilian People” (onlive version in [[http://www.portalsaofrancisco.com.br/alfa/darcy-ribeiro/o-povo-brasileiro.php here]]) written by Darcy Ribeiro and used as source by Opinoso. I must admit that the more I read, the more I get astonished with the author’s opinions. The book, in summary, is a piece of communist/Marxist propaganda with strong messages of racial hatred. In it, the whites/Europeans are cruel and oppressive, while the africans and Indians as innocent victims that lived in some kind of a proto-Communist (where all were equal and everything perfect) society before the conquest of the “evil” capitalist Europeans. And later they are dominated by the rich (bourgeois) elite and equally oppressive. Below are some passages (translated from Portuguese to English by me). When you finish reading, you will certainly notice that many of the ideas of Darcy Ribeiro are in the old text in the section history (that one that Opinoso brought back and also in those passages that he wrote that I was against it), where “the elites” or “white ruling classes” themes are common. It is very probably that is was Opinoso the one who wrote the old text and that is why he opposes any modification to it.

* ...a new protagonist, the European. Although very small, the tiny group that had just arrived from beyond the sea was '''super-aggressive''' and capable of acting '''destructively''' in multiple ways. (Page 1 on online version)

*It is impossible because we only have the testimony of one of the protagonists, the '''invader'''. It is he who says about his exploits. It is he, also, who tells what occurred to the indians and the blacks, rarely giving the word of register from their own words. What the large documentation tells us is the version of the '''dominator'''. (Page 1)

*After all, the Crown itself, in the person of the marquis of Pombal, decides to end with that '''precocious socialist experience''', banishing them from Brazil. Then, it occurs the saddest. The priests deliver the missions obediently to the '''rich colonists'''. (Page 2)

*Thus it is how it was being composed a speech more and more rational and each time more insane, against what truly happened to the Indians: smashed and enslaved by the colonist, who were blind and deaf to anything with the exception of what was related to '''money'''. (Page 2)

*To attribute some formal dignity to the '''extermination war''' that was being carried, to the brutality of the conquest, the perversity of the elimination of so many peoples. (Page 2)

*The colonists, working to reproduce a '''healthy mercantile''' world in here, moved on by their '''greed''' and '''usuries'''. (Page 2)

Darcy Ribeiro even finds an opportunity to blame the Jews, whom he accuses of having "dominated" the Portuguese. He is probably blaming Jewish merchants, I don´t know, I have never seen so much craziness in one book. See by yourself:

*Free of the Saracen occupation, relieved of the Jewish exploitation… (Page 2)

*Nothing more natural than to think on that way for an Iberian [Portuguese] who had just finished banishing the heretics Saracens and Jewish, who had dominated them for centuries. (Page 2) --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 14:30, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

On page 3 (online version) Darcy Ribeiro says that the Portuguese that came to Brazil were men who had been banished, or that were bandits, criminals, or similar. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 14:39, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

::Debresser, I am tired of that discussion. It is all pointless. It doesn´t matter if I prove piece by piece that every allegation of Opinoso is based on lies. No one cares. He can do and undo anything he wants and no one complains. He destroys Wikipedia as a reliable enciclopedia and no one gives a damn about it. I write, write and write and nothing happens. The guy is still there, like he is an honesty contributor who just have different sources to the same matter. All those aditions to the text he did, all based on lies (as I showed countless times), are still there. He should be banished from Wikipedia, but no one has even thought on that. Good luck in there and once again, thanks for everything you did, I trully apreciated it. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 12:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

::: If you won't continue the fight, nobody will. It is having some success, because 1. Another user has also complained about him 2. The issue has been brought to the attention of palces like [[WP:ANI/3RR]] and [[WP:WQA]] 3. His edits ''will'' be undone if shown to have been wrong. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 12:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: I saw, but the discussion page is a mess. Someone who is new to the dispute won´t understand anything. Not only you, but other users had already made the "10 points" suggestion to improve the text before Opinoso interrupted. I do not have anything against changing or improving the text, as long as it is not will false information as it was done by Opinoso. I will not engange on any discussion anymore, unless if it is: 1) to answer another editor; 2) or to answer an Administrator. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 13:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

::You wrote: His edits ''will'' be undone if shown to have been wrong

::But I have already done that. What do you think I still need to point out? (this a question, not an ironic remark) - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 13:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Opinoso reverted the text again! When it is still under debate! This guy is out of control! - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 14:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

::::I'm not out of control. If there's something under debate, the original text must stay in the article, not the new one (the biased one). User Lecen was not able to point not a single "wrong" information about the old text, even though he claimed it was wrong. Since the old text is not wrong, nobody is able to erase it to post a biased one in its place. [[User:Opinoso|Opinoso]] ([[User talk:Opinoso|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

::::: [[User:Lecen]] has pointed to many things that he considered wrong. It is just that you disagree. Note also that at least two other editors seem to agree with him rather than with you. Your last revert was untactfull, and could be considered edit-warring. I was on the brink of undoing it, but decided to await the outcome of the discussion. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:28, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

== Moving categories ==

Hi, I'm rather new to editing categories, so I am very sorry if I did something against protocol. I assumed that moving a category was similar to moving an article, which is being done without going to AfD. Is there a page somewhere where these things are explained? As you may have seen from the (long) discussion on my talk page, the journals categories are somewhat of a mess and need cleaning and I would like to do things correctly. Thanks! --[[User:Crusio|Crusio]] ([[User talk:Crusio|talk]]) 09:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

: Started and continued on [[User_talk:Crusio#Journals|user talkpage]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 09:33, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

== Broken reference ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles_Wilson_Cross&action=historysubmit&diff=322721848&oldid=322681852 Fixed].  Thanks for bringing that to my attention. [[User:Steve Smith|Steve Smith]] ([[User talk:Steve Smith|talk]]) 12:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

: Thank ''you'' for fixing it. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

== Prod2 ==

My bad. [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 02:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

== Geobox ==

Where are they used? ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 18:08, 31 October 2009 (UTC).
:User pages? Sometimes I think we dhouldn;t worry about them, sometimes I fix them. And parameter 1 is River or Range. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 16:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC).

== Japan parental abduction ==

I'm not that technically literate. Until very recently, I simply used []. I have made an effort to learn how to use {{Cite}}. However, for some reason, it didn't work right so I'm sticking to what work. [[User:Vapour|Vapour]] ([[User talk:Vapour|talk]]) 20:54, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
:So do you mean as long as I have "|url=" and "|title", it will work. Thanks. [[User:Vapour|Vapour]] ([[User talk:Vapour|talk]]) 21:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

== X-ray transient ==

You recent edit to the article, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=X-ray_transient&action=historysubmit&diff=323151209&oldid=323080664 here] removed a large chunk of text.  Did you mean to do that?  [[Special:Contributions/75.69.0.58|75.69.0.58]] ([[User talk:75.69.0.58|talk]]) 23:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

: No, and I have no idea how it happened. I undid it, while at the same time keeping the fix that was made later, and fixing what I intended originally. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:02, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

: I must have searched for that broken link in the history, and then saved an older version. That is the best I can come up with by way of explanation. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion|Nomination for deletion]] of [[:Template:{{ucfirst:Sockpuppeteerproven}}]] ==

[[File:Nuvola_apps_important.svg|30px]][[Template:{{ucfirst:Sockpuppeteerproven}}]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#Template:{{ucfirst:Sockpuppeteerproven}}|the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page]]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> [[User:Avraham|Avi]] ([[User talk:Avraham|talk]]) 00:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification. I have now voted there. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

== TfD ==

Thanks. I think the problem was that I usually use the Twinkle (I think) script to nominate things and it wouldn't post. Perhaps that is because there is no section for November 1 on the TfD page. I think I am going to hold off just a bit until a discussion about the templates in question concludes. Thanks so much. [[User:Wildhartlivie|Wildhartlivie]] ([[User talk:Wildhartlivie|talk]]) 10:45, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks. I was trying to rationalize my inability to use the script tonight, I guess. Cheers! [[User:Wildhartlivie|Wildhartlivie]] ([[User talk:Wildhartlivie|talk]]) 10:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

== Improving Coverage of Judaism ==

Re: the [[Judaism]] article, I appreciate your work.  I'd like to know if you're interested in joining the effort for other sections of the article besides Kashrut.  In particular, I'm concerned I would have trouble expanding the very incomplete section about "niddah and family purity" by myself, because I'm not very knowledgeable in that area.  By now, I think that section looks like it needs more attention than Kashrut and it's also an important aspect of Halakha.  Do you think you would be able to expand that section, or do you have any other ideas about how to improve the article?  Thanks so much.  --[[User:AFriedman|AFriedman]] ([[User talk:AFriedman|talk]]) 05:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

: I ''am'' an "expert" on the subject. I have left a few posts on the talkpage of [[Niddah]] at one time, that may give you an indication. I am more of a [[Wikipedia:Wikignome|wikgnome]] than a writer. If somebody were to start, I'd jump in. Preferably the person writing should know beforehand that it would be a joint venture. :) To avoid conflicts.

: BTW, I agree that the chicken thing didn't warrant a paragraph of its own. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 09:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

== HIV dissent ‎ (Use transclusion, not substitution.) ==

Forgive me for sounding naive... While I know what transclusion is, I am not sure I understand your reference, and your edit doesn't shed any light on the subject for me. Clarification would be most appreciated. [[User:Neuromancer|Neuromancer]] ([[User talk:Neuromancer|talk]]) 13:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

: I understand. I made a paste&copy error when I added that edit summary. I noticed it too late to stop it. The edit summary should have been "Removed or replaced non-applicable protection template". [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 13:34, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

:: Thank you for the clarification. That makes much more sense. [[User:Neuromancer|Neuromancer]] ([[User talk:Neuromancer|talk]]) 13:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

== Cleanup ==

Thanks for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tragic_hero&diff=next&oldid=323248520 this]. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 15:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

== Bombings ==

I don't want to argue about [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_October_31#Category:Suicide_bombing_in_the_Chechen-Russian_conflict|this]] (really, I don't!), but I think I'm just misunderstanding what you have meant in your comments there. I don't have anything invested in saving the category from deletion, but I'm more just curious because not being able to understand is bugging me. Could you enlighten me, either here, or there, or on my talk page? No hurry. [[User:Good Olfactory|Good Ol’factory]] <sup>[[User talk:Good Olfactory|(talk)]]</sup> 21:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

: I somehow didn't notice the other articles in the category. Don't know how that happened. See the discussion that I have changed my point of view. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

::Ah, OK. Thanks. Thought I myself was missing something. [[User:Good Olfactory|Good Ol’factory]] <sup>[[User talk:Good Olfactory|(talk)]]</sup> 21:54, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

::: Neah. that would be impossible! :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:56, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

== Issue ==

I tried to, but it blocked me from doing so. I e-mailed him to ask if he has done this before, but I haven't gotten a response yet. I'll e-mail him soon with a suggestion if he doesn't respond in the next day. I'm new too, so we're on the same boat. [[user:Ktr101|Kevin Rutherford]] ([[User_talk:Ktr101|talk]]) 22:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
:I might as well e-mail it then and I plan on applying for "account creator" status soon. [[user:Ktr101|Kevin Rutherford]] ([[User_talk:Ktr101|talk]]) 22:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
::So apparently he only wanted to rename his account. I told him how to do so, so all is good. [[user:Ktr101|Kevin Rutherford]] ([[User_talk:Ktr101|talk]]) 22:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, because on the documentation page it says to do just that because I think the other way reveals your I.P. I think that we've had quite a thrilling day over at the Account Creation thing. [[user:Ktr101|Kevin Rutherford]] ([[User_talk:Ktr101|talk]]) 19:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:No, not really. It picks up though late at night, and since everyone else is on, I haven't created an account in 16 hours. [[user:Ktr101|Kevin Rutherford]] ([[User_talk:Ktr101|talk]]) 20:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

== Palestine ==

Thanks.  I haven't been following what the agreed-upon nomenclature is.  And frankly, don't have any strong views on the subject, and I appreciate your input.  

But I do notice that there is actually a Wikipedia article called [[State of Palestine]].  How does that square with your comments?  

All I was trying to do was match the language used in the article I was editing ([[Al-Najah Secondary School]]), which refers to Palestine.  But looking on it now, even that reference is perhaps not the best, since it refers to the geographical area and not the State.  Thoughts?--[[User:Epeefleche|Epeefleche]] ([[User talk:Epeefleche|talk]]) 00:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

: I am content with the status-quo. The [[State of Palestine]] is not recognised by many, me included. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:21, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

== Brazil - ending the problem ==

Hello! Well, I have [[Talk:Brazil#10 points settement to history section|brought back the 10 points discussion]]. I already put my thoughts in there, and also yours. However, you should re-read them and change whatever you think it must. Remember that some of the passages that you said that should stay were later proved to false information created by Opinoso. Só, read it carefully and post your signature (I don´t want to see Opinoso accusing me of "creating" your opinion). I will warn the other editors about the 10 points. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 17:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

:Debresser, I was wondering that it would be a good idea if we erase the following passage that I wrote: "Brazil was a 'prosperous and [internationally] respected' country". I have noticed that, although it is correct (at least, according to historians), the way it is written and where it was put makes the view of Pedro II reign "too positive" as you told me once. Whoever reads it will have the feeling that it was almost sad that the monarchy ended and that was not my intention. So, I thought it could be removed it and wouldn´t hurt the text. What are your thoughts on it? - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 17:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

:: Since you quoted me, I should not sign. Anybody can see that those were my words.
:: Perhaps indeed replace "Brazil was a “prosperous and [internationally] respected” country[112] when the monarchy was overthrown in November 15, 1889." by a simple "The monarchy was overthrown in November 15, 1889." Although the first part is sourced, it is not very relevant. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 17:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

== Thanks for the 'consensus' version ==

You don't work for the FBI do you?  No.  I didn't think so.  Pardon my delusions. 

If you knew *why* I got interested in this article, and had issue with the unsourced opinions (the so-called consensus version referencing sundry hearsay) you'd grasp my point.  I grasp what may be yours.<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:80.254.72.154|80.254.72.154]] ([[User talk:80.254.72.154|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/80.254.72.154|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

: Oh, I can tell you how I got interested in this article. I saw it on a list of articles with errors, [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

LOL.  No, that's not how.  One of the guy running his case in Kabul... oh, never mind.  I have work to do.  And I really don't give a hoot to get into it.  Let's just say one person involved in... oh never mind. 

I do so hate this pillorying of human beings on Wikipedia, I have to say.  Over half of this guy's page reads like an FBI file (my what a coincidence).  The guy is clearly an excitable type.  But no one deserves this kind of trashing.  Especially the mentions of his father's obit, the mention of his 'common law wife' and various references to anything and everything derogatory under the planet (including calling his charity a dog kennel, for Christ's sake).  It's not even veiled.

All the business information is a bunch of nonsense that no one cares about (a paintball firm?  God.  He's not Richard Branson.  Give up the lifelong timeline.  This kind of nonsense is simple and clear smear work.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.254.72.154|80.254.72.154]] ([[User talk:80.254.72.154|talk]]) 22:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: I have removed some of the most blatant unrelated sentences. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[Atlantean language]] ==
Thnks for yr comment. Don't know what went wrong, but it seemed to me something still was not okay. Fixed it now. [[User:Ida Shaw|Ida Shaw]] ([[User talk:Ida Shaw|talk]]) 06:11, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

== Being Admin ==

I saw your comment on Rich Farmbrough's talk. I hope it goes without saying that everything I say here is meant as constructive criticism.

I do not want, or have never applied, to be an admin. I simply do not want the hassle. I want to edit articles and make them better, wikignoming if you like, but I am a software engineer and do not want to spemd my free time fixing up. Nevertheéess I do.

I think, frankly, you would be better off not being admin and doing what you do best, gnoming, without the hassle. Just my view, of course. And if I need an admin to dispute a move or anything can I come to you first? No special pleading, just you know me well enough I am trying to make WP better.

My sincere best wishes [[User:SimonTrew|Si Trew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 18:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, I agree, RFA has become a [[trial by hazard|hazard]] rather than "no big deal".  My strong belief is that 90% of management is about getting out of people's way - of course bureaucracy does precisely the opposite. Can't fix, won't fix. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 18:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC).

::Rich totally agree. Management is about letting people do their jobs, and then getting out of the way. I hope you saw that I fixed up a few articles this morning for [[Parks and Recreation]], put them into standard form and made a tempolate with documentation, I hope I was going along the right lines there, but if you could cast your eye over {{tlx|Parks and Recreation episode}} I should be very grateful.

::Will post to your page to indirect here. [[User:SimonTrew|Si Trew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 19:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

::: No problem. But I am not an admin. That is precisely the problem. Why do I consider it a problem? Because if I were an admin, 1. I could make edits to protected pages. As a gnome, I sometimes want to fix something on protected pages as well. 2. To be able to help in [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion]], where I am active on a daily basis partaking in discussions. But to do the hard work of deleting or renaming categories one needs to be an admin. 3. Things like blocking users or deleting/protecting pages usually do not interest me, but may be handy once in a while. Most of my fighting vandalism I do with my rollback rights. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 19:11, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

:::: Both CSD and AfD are very gnomish jobs, CSD is particularly in need of diligent gnoming - pages get CSD'd wrongly then speedily deleted.  Also speedy tends to be a couple of minutes which is great for most CSD stuff but some needs to be prodded of AfD'd or plain kept...  Anyway.  Propose yourself for Admin, or if you prefer I will gnominate you. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 20:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC).

::::I didn't say, and should have, that I respect Debresser very much for everything done, and I am sure I only coincidentally meet. My greatest respect, Debresser, for your hard work. I would also support you for admin it if helps you in your gnoming. [[User:SimonTrew|Si Trew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 21:09, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

::::: You are going to have me blush soon. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:11, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::Just to blunder into the discussion, I was actually thinking about you and adminship a little while ago.  If you ever felt like going for it then you would certainly have my support.  --<b>[[User:Xdamr|<span style="font-family: Times"><span style="font-size:140%">X</span><span style="font-size:110%">damr</span></span>]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Xdamr|talk]]</sup></b> 12:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC) 

::::::: Thank you for the good word. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 12:48, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

:{{tps}} FWIW, I think the argument that adminship conflicts with editing is too often used incorrectly. Just look at admins like {{user|Moni3}}. I have never ever really attempted article writing until ca. 6 months after I became admin. If you think adminship can be useful in what you already do, just run for it (if you haven't got any skeletons in your closet that is {{=)|wink}}). Noone forces you to act any different if you succeed, you can still do most of the things you do now, just more productively sometimes. Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #35628F">Why</span>]]''' 21:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Cut the UTC business. I made a template at {{tlx|Time of day in words}}. ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]])<nowiki>{{time of day in words|21|27|part of day=yes}}</nowiki>

== What disrupting editing? ==

Dude the article links to the wrong allmusic guide review, how in any way was my edit destructive? - [[Special:Contributions/220.239.227.105|220.239.227.105]] ([[User talk:220.239.227.105|talk]]) 12:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

: Replied on user talkpage. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 12:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

DUDE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I DID! I did not touch anything else on the article, all I did was replace the link and you're calling me a vandal.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/220.239.227.105|220.239.227.105]] ([[User talk:220.239.227.105|talk]]) 12:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:ahh righto that ref thing was an accident (why would I fix the link, and then destroy something else on the page?) - [[Special:Contributions/220.239.227.105|220.239.227.105]] ([[User talk:220.239.227.105|talk]]) 12:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

::Hello Deb, I noticed the warning you issued to this anon, although the matter seems to be cleared up now, I think it would be good if in future only a first warning were issued for this kind of thing, or, even better, if no warning were issued at all and instead the matter were discussed. But to my mind a final warning for an edit such as made by this anon is completely disproportionate. But that's just what I think and naturally you are entitled to think otherwise. Anyway, I Hope everything is well with you, kind regards,
::[[User:Spitfire|Spitfire]]<sup>[[User talk:Spitfire|Tally-ho!]]</sup> 21:14, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

::: If I remember correctly, I posted a 3rd level warning out of 5. That is not a "final" warning. And this was after I fixed his edit in which he made <code><nowiki></ref></nowiki></code> into <code><nowiki></reff></nowiki></code>, which was vandalism act number one, and he reverted me, which was vandalism act number 2. And the reason I gave a 3rd level warning was for 2 vandalism edits + 1 for the [[chutzpah]] of undoing a fix by an experienced editor. This is what I remeber by heart. In view of this, I find your remark here quite off point. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

::: I admit that this user is not a vandal, according to his contributions, but this specific edit was. I might have used a 2nd level warning, that would have been better. But that is as far as I'll go. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

== Wizard again ==

Hi, I've added "source=ArticleWizard" to the Article Wizard's calling of {{tl|userspace draft}} and {{tl|new unreviewed article}}. Could you fix it so that this switch acts appropriately, and the templates can be used for other purposes too? Thanks! [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 13:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

: I noticed the switch. What do you have in mind? That these templates should do the same thing as they do now but without the addition that they come from the Article Wizard? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 13:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

: Something like [[User:Debresser/Sandbox]]? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:04, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

:: Yes, I think so. The idea being that users can apply those tags manually without the template or categorisation giving the impression the page came from the Wizard. Thanks. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 14:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

::: They are ready at [[User:Debresser/Sandbox/Userspace draft]] and [[User:Debresser/Sandbox/New unreviewed article]]. Please delete those pages after you copied the templates.
::: {{Tl|New unreviewed article}} still could use a function reporting it when it is applied outside article namespace. Before, that function was provided by {{Tl|Userspace draft}}, but now that {{Tl|New unreviewed article}} can be used independently, that should be build in. For that purpose a special error category would have to be created. Or you could leave it without error detection, just as many other maintenance templates. That would be my suggestion. A person who would use this template independently, without the Article Wizard, probbaly kows what he is doing. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:33, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
::: Note: no categories exist as of yet for the use of these templates outside Article Wizard. they are redlinked. It is ironical that I had those of New unrevied article deleted just yesterday. However, no need to create them before they would actually be needed. Which reminds me. Are you sure this change is a good idea? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: Why wouldn't it be? [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 14:46, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: It won't hurt, surely, but I wonder how likely it is to be used. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:56, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Well there's one way to find out...! :) [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 14:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Especially since we already have [[Template:UserWorkInProgress]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 15:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::: I want to merge those. See [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/userfication]]. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 20:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

== I got your note ==

I read the note you left in the edit summary at [[List of Awards of The Bill]]! I apologise for creating extra work for you and I promise I'll try not to cock it up again! As a matter of interest, what did you do to fix the ref? I tried twice and ended up reverting myself because I made it worse. Thanks for cleaning it up, anyway. Regards, [[User:HJ Mitchell|<span style="color:Teal; font-family:Tahoma;">'''HJMitchell'''</span>]]  [[User_Talk:HJ Mitchell|<span style="color:Navy; font-family:Times New Roman;">You rang? </span>]]  20:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[Alice B. Toklas]] ==

Whoops, went offline for a few hours in the middle of an edit session. Thanks for fixing things up temporarily - my edits are now all in place, and I incorporated the reflist template you suggested.--[[User:Larrybob|Larrybob]] ([[User talk:Larrybob|talk]]) 03:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

: You're welcome. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 07:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

== Re ==

Thank you for advice, Debresser. I will certainly take better care of providing correct reference names. [[User:Ellol|ellol]] ([[User talk:Ellol|talk]]) 07:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

== Re: Patience ==

Well, if I managed to convince the others I own that much to you, my heroine (I presume you are a girl). Opinoso has vanished, like he had been just a bad dream. I have ended writing the history section, but I think I'll need to downsize it somehow. 

The only issue now is that an user called "Auréola" has added sections that are full of nonsense. In sum, it is like he is doing publicity towards Brazil and worse, the info there is non-enciclopedic. I am not Opinoso, and I will not erase what he did, of course. I have written my thoughts on the discussion page to see what happens. Anyway, the article has become larger and it has to get smaller.

'''P.S.:''' Thank you for everything. I'm on debt with you, anytime you need, you can call me for help. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 16:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

: I'm a galant knight, rather than a heroine. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 16:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
:: I am sorry! My bad! By the way, how do I I put on the archives the old discussion on the article Brazil? All that discussion with Opinoso makes harder to talk about new subjects. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 17:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
::: You should not do that! There is a bot archiving the talkpage, but that will take some time yet. Leave this to somebody else. Especially since this is too early to archive this discussion. I previously collapsed big parts of it, and that should be enough for the time being. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 17:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: Ow, I did not know that. I just thought that since the matter is dead, we could save space. But don't worry, I won't touch anything. By the way, '''Opinoso''' is back to the article. Take a look on what he wrote:

:::::''Why couldn't Auréola post glamorous informations about Brazil if a section of this article is already devoted to glamourise the Monarchy? Why couldn't Auréola criticize the Military Dictatorship or Capitalism if there is an specific section dedicated to criticize the Republic? Auréola may be only following a tendency here. And he/she has sources, then, it's ok.''

:::::''By the way, I like the section about "Brazilian women" that Auréola posted. If Emperor Pedro II has an entire section dedicated to enhance his skills and his glorious government, it is clear that the Brazilian women also deserve their own section too. The brave Brazilian women deserve it. Auréola, if you have "sources", go ahead, keep posting.''

::::You know, in a very, very weird way, I am starting to like him. You know that kind of people that you love hating? Something like that. Hah hah hah... I know, I know, that was a cruel joke. Kind regards, --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 21:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

== What is this?  ==

Is there something you wished to say? Why did you post [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bus_stop#Kosher this] on my Talk page? Please use the Talk page of the appropriate article, namely the [[Judaism]] article, to make whatever constructive comments you feel need to be made. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 01:24, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

:I made a comment of more personal nature on your talkpage, in complete conformance with Wikipedia rules and practises. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 02:11, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

::Meant what? That I am ignorant? Is that your idea of the starting point for a constructive dialogue? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 02:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

:::See [[User_talk:Bus_stop#Kosher]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 02:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

::::Debresser, Please use the Talk page of the relevant article to engage in dialogue concerning writing or improving the article. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 02:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::I will do so. But you should not be there, because you do not know the subject at hand. Please be wise enough to remove yourself from that article. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 02:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::Please remove myself from the article? Are you serious? Are you of the opinion that someone has to have innate knowledge of a subject to participate on Wikipedia? How do you see what you are doing as being constructive? By telling me to go away, you are contributing to the project? You make me sound like a vandal. Were my edits vandalism? They were sourced from an established text called ''The Foundation of Judaism'', by ''Akiva Aaronson'', first published in 1997. It happens to be a text that is given out free to attendees of a [[Gateways (organization)|Gateways Organization]] series of lectures. When I add material to an article I adhere very closely to text in my source. I happen to take very seriously the prohibition on adding [[WP:OR|original research]] to an article. Do you actually think that I am not qualified to participate in editing any part of the Judaism article? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 03:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::::I did not use the word vandalism, nor did I have it in mind. And it is very good that you take care not to engage in original research. But that only proves my point, that a person not knowledgable enough in the subject matter is apt to make mistakes even when aided by certain sources. Do you think it is for nothing that rabbis study these subjects for 1-2 years? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 03:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::::Wikipedia and a rabbi's area of practice are not necessarily congruent. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 03:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Debresser, I disagree with Bus stop's personal behavior but I still think we should be gentler to Bus stop when he edits the Judaism article, given that his last 2 edits came from verifiable sources (even if they happened to repeat incorrect information from those sources).  I can mention several instances in which Bus stop made constructive criticisms of the Kashrut section.  I've tried to behave gently and not make ad hominem attacks on him, because I think we should respect these Wikipedia policies when someone edits in good faith.  Overall, with him in the group of collaborative editors I think the article improves.  Do you agree?

I am not a rabbi either.  In fact, I regularly contribute to articles and sections of articles at the edge of my own expertise, including Niddah.  Why are we criticizing Bus stop's personal level of expertise, rather than focusing on the issues with his specific edits and interpersonal behavior?  Many people's edits need to be double-checked, even when they are knowledgeable.  You've certainly improved on mine, for example.  WP should be open to anyone of any credentials who edits in good faith.  Bus stop's access to verifiable sources, in my opinion, should be enough of a qualification to allow him to edit Judaism.

Bus stop's civility is a separate issue and I'm bringing it up with him.  --[[User:AFriedman|AFriedman]] ([[User talk:AFriedman|talk]]) 03:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

:I have posted on his takpage in the same vine, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bus_stop&diff=325025732&oldid=324987275 my last edit there]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 10:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

::Debresser, please use the article Talk page. That is a central location for addressing issues concerning writing and improving the article. I think it is less constructive to be posting your issues with my edits to the [[Judaism]] article on my User Talk page. Others are also involved, and they deserve the courtesy of seeing the issues under discussion in one central place. That place is logically the Talk page of the Judaism article. I only posted here because you have been making a habit of posting on my User Talk page. Let us both try to put a stop to this. The article Talk page is the proper place for most of this. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 15:33, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

:::I am sorry, but you are wrong. Again. The talkpage is about the article. I am not discussing the article: I am discussing you. The only right place to do that is on user talkpages. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:41, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) I don't see why you are discussing me. The article is what matters. My edits can be addressed in terms of my edits. It is with the following comment that you opened your discussion on my User Talk page:

:''"It may be that I am not the right person to tell you this, but in view of your clearly proven ignorance about the subject of kashrus, I think you should really stop editing the Judaism article. Debresser (talk) 00:27, 10 November 2009 (UTC)"'' 

That is found [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bus_stop#Kosher here].

No one wishes to be told about their ''"…clearly proven ignorance…"'' and I am no exception. This is not the first time you have posted in such a manner on my User Talk page. You posted [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bus_stop#Judaism this] without anything nearly approaching an appropriate level of provocation. If I remember correctly I made 3 edits over 36 hours (to the kashrut section of the [[Judaism]] article). That's what apparently provoked you to post that warning on my User Talk page. That does not make sense to me. A person can't edit an article if someone such as yourself is issuing dire-sounding warnings after 3 well-sourced edits over a period of 36 hours.

Bear in mind that the infrequent edits that I have attempted to make to that article were accompanied by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. I'm sorry if I am repeating myself, but I need to say again that I am very careful to adhere very closely to my sources, which I am posting at the same moment that I post an edit. Wikipedia unfortunately suffers from a popularly held perception that it is "unreliable" because "anyone can edit it." In my conception, that problem is most directly traceable to failure to properly source articles and to cleave closely to those sources. I do not wish to contribute to the perception that Wikipedia is unreliable. I honestly base my input on what sources actually say.

You have made it clear that you want me to go away. But it is not [[WP:OWN|your]] article. That you are a "rabbi" is somewhat irrelevant. I say that with no malice. I can respect you for being a rabbi. But the currency here at Wikipedia is primarily [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. I am reasonably proficient at reading English. I can read source material and make appropriate edits to accurately reflect that material. 

Therefore you should be addressing my edits, and not me as a person, or a robot, or whatever the case may be. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 23:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
:I wouldn't call Bus stop's edits "infrequent"--I check the Judaism page daily and often see them--but otherwise, I think Bus stop has made a valid point here.  Please stop making ad hominem attacks on his level of knowledge.  If Bus stop enters the realms of edit warring and interfering with consensus, these are valid arguments to make.  I don't think he's in either realm at this point.  But I think you should keep [[WP:Civil]] in mind when dealing with Bus stop.  I noticed you've toned down your argument that Bus stop should stop editing the Judaism article, and I think that's good.  Actually, I think your previous attacks on Bus stop's person were counterproductive and obscured the point you were trying to get across.  Why don't we think about what we can do from this point onward.  --[[User:AFriedman|AFriedman]] ([[User talk:AFriedman|talk]]) 23:48, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

:::AFriedman, where are these supposed violations of [[WP:CIVIL]] that you are apparently finding for me? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 00:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
::::Bus stop, I have posted this on your talk page.  The post I wrote directly above yours was mostly a criticism of Debresser and how he treated you.  --[[User:AFriedman|AFriedman]] ([[User talk:AFriedman|talk]]) 01:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: Please be so kind not to have that discussion on my talkpage. That was not the point. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:53, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

::These are not attacks, and I resent you calling them such. These are assessments based on the evidence of his edits. I am not alking about various technical or stylistic improvements, or about the fact that he has raised some valid points. But sometimes he makes factual statements that are just incorrect, because he doesn't know the subject matter well enough. And that would not be a problem, if he were to accept that others know the subject better than he does. But unfortunately he is a moderately aggressive editor as well. So I counted my blessings, and advised him to refrain from editing this article. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 23:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

::::Debresser, you may think that I have made ''"factual statements that are just incorrect."'' At [[WP:VERIFY]] I find:

:::::''"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."''

::::The above is not to say that the material that I have put in the article is untrue. But you are not your own [[WP:RS|source]], are you? 

::::Though you and AFriedman have reverted my edits numerous times, I have seen a notable dearth of reliable sources brought by either of you to support any of those reversions. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 00:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

::::: I think the problem is more you not understanding. But I told you before, that I do not see much of a point in trying to explain this to you. Since you obviously continue to see yourself competent to edit the [[Judaism]] article, by all means do so, and give other editors more to do. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 01:09, 11 November 2009 (UTC)  

::::::Debresser, why wouldn't I be competent to edit the [[Judaism]] article? The problem is me ''"not understanding?"'' Not understanding what? Pardon me for saying so, but you make kashrut sound like a mystery. Maybe that is what our disagreement is about: I am trying to make kashrut crystal clear to anyone who glances at the kashrut section of the Judaism article. And you are insisting on the inclusion of obscure and unexplained material. Take for instance your insistence on including that the pig is perhaps the un-kosher animal most familiar to most people. After much argumentation with me you finally revealed that there is a historical precedent for this in the form of something akin to a parable. (I may not be getting all this right. But I think you will recall our discussion related to this.) But most astonishingly, to me at least, is that no mention of that historic parable like allusion is included in the article. As I asked you at the time &mdash; what is the point? Are we trying to baffle people? Are we trying to "prime" people for some future inevitable encounter with that parable? 

::::::I'm in favor of explication. My "vision" for the kashrut section is simple explication in very brief sentences of all aspects of dietary kashrut. My "vision" is to have that very logically laid out. For further reference the reader clicks the link to the [[Kashrut]] article. You and AFriedman are more in favor of writing a prose piece, to your liking. Therein lies the problem: your version is a hodgepodge of your notion of the most popular ideas in kashrut. I want to rationalize that. That is where our differences lie. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 01:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::::That already is part of a content discussion, which had better take place on the talkpage. Just be prepared to accept the fact that if other editors disagree with you, or if your "vision" is at odds with Wikipedia's style requirement, you are going to have to compromise. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 01:57, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Okay, I take back calling what you did "attacks" because I'm not sure they meet the criteria.  However, the policy [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks]] says "Comment on content, not on the contributor."  I think this is important to keep in mind.  --[[User:AFriedman|AFriedman]] ([[User talk:AFriedman|talk]]) 00:05, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

== You removed a protection template on Manupatra ==
In this edit your removed a protection on [[Manupatra]].[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manupatra&diff=prev&oldid=322118079] This allowed an anon IP who has been warned for copyright violation by an administrator[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:122.160.177.194] to re-insert the copyright violation material.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manupatra&action=historysubmit&diff=324806391&oldid=322118079]. Just an fyi. [[User:Piano non troppo|Piano non troppo]] ([[User talk:Piano non troppo|talk]]) 06:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
:The template itself has nothing to do with the article being protected or not. The article protection actually expired in August. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Manupatra] The pp series of templates are removed from pages when the page is no longer protected. --[[User:Tothwolf|Tothwolf]] ([[User talk:Tothwolf|talk]]) 06:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
:: Thank you, [[User:Tothwolf|Tothwolf]] for jumping in. You are, of course, completely correct. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 10:52, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Thank you both. I see now that the protection did indeed expire in August. I spent a few minutes looking through the documentation, but didn't see offhand what the date in <nowiki>{{pp-semi-indef|small=yes|expiry=December 21, 2009}}</nowiki> does actually mean? Regards, [[User:Piano non troppo|Piano non troppo]] ([[User talk:Piano non troppo|talk]]) 19:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: Good luck in editing. See you around, [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:47, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

== Pictures on Hasidic pages ==

Hello Debresser! I've been anonamously putting up the pictures on [[Hasidic philosophy]] over the past few days. I notice you made some slight reversions today. Recently I wrote about the character of Reb Zushya on the page of [[Elimelech of Lizhensk]], and therefore made connections to it from Hasidic philosophy page, as I thought some information about Reb Zushya is better than none! However, if you prefer to leave his name in red in order to stimulate someone to make a new page for him, then OK! (Perhaps you could make such a page?)

However, I really think the picture of the son of the Rhuziner Rebbe should be on the page. I haven't yet quite finished adding/rearranging the pictures, which I hope to do this week. I've selected pictures that cover the full range of Hasidic diversity and aspects of its thought, across the whole movement. For instance, the picture of the ohel of the Berditchever Rebbe, I thought, most brings out the aspect in Hasidut of love of another Jew. In the same vein, a connecting picture to the Rhuziner Rebbe would most bring out the royal aspect of the Hasidic tzaddik, as he most exemplified it. I put this in the section about the connection of Hasidut to Mashiach, as the unique innovation in Judaism of the Hasidic tzaddik offered a minor level of physical and spiritual redemption, one aspect of the foretaste of King Mashiach and the Messianic era in Hasidism. I think I'll reinstate that picture therefore. Keep watching for my final arrangement this week and next week of pictures on [[Hasidic philosophy]], [[Hasidic Judaism]] and also hopefully [[Kabbalah]].

P.S. I'm a Lubavitcher too! And a devotee of "Classical" tradition music (plus Harry Potter etc. etc.!). For me it's Mahler, Vaughan Williams, Handel, Beethoven ....etc. Have a look at my new, not yet quite finished [[User:April8]] page-I think you'll like it!! [[User:April8|April8]] ([[User talk:April8|talk]]) 19:16, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

: I think a picture of the ''son'' of the Rhuziner is by several magnitudes too irrelevant for the article. But my main problem was with the text you added below the picture. It was unencyclopedical. Far too personal and emotional. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

As wikipedia commons doesn't have a picture of the Rhuziner, his son is close enough, particularly if the caption mentions the regal tradition he inhereted. My main motivation in editing wikipedia is to inform readers of the true nature and position of Jewish mysticism in wider Jewish thought, and to inspire their attraction to it. This picture of the son is wonderfully inspirational! You'll see my improved caption beneath it.
P.S. The image I used for Rabbi Nachman's imaginative creativity is quite good, though I did look a long time for alternatives, notably:
[[Image:Oberlichtgitter 1814.jpg|120px|Imaginative fretwork also including bird like in his tales]]
<br />What would really be ideal would be an image of his holy chair, with its animal and bird woodcarvings. [[User:April8|April8]] ([[User talk:April8|talk]]) 22:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

== You have no right to revert me. ==

I have watched the Judaism article for a long time.  A month ago[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&oldid=319332734], two months ago[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&oldid=313407109], three months ago[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&oldid=306862015], four [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&oldid=302310681], five months ago [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&oldid=295349533], more than six months ago[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&oldid=286234966].  (Note, Debresser, that many of the examples above come from edits you made - i.e. times when you edited the page but ''kept'' the consensus version of the introduction).  

Then [user: Navnløs] ''changed'' the consensus version: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&diff=324798877&oldid=324759824].  I reverted ''back'' to the consensus version.   Then [[user: Navnløs] made the same edit, again, against consensus: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&diff=324958030&oldid=324957809], and I restord the consensus version.  Then another imposition of his edit[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&diff=324969087&oldid=324968728] which this time AFriedman rverted.  My point is, that Navnlos is clearly POV warring here, insisting on his edit which is changing the consensus version.  Then [[user:A Sniper]] made the controversial edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism&diff=325098584&oldid=325079800] and again, i restored ''the consensus version.  Now you are reverting me?  Why?  All I have done was to protect the consensus edit by reverting a change made to a text that has been stable for over six months.

Why is it that when YOU keep the consensus version, that is alright ... but when I try to protect the same consensus version, I get reverted?  You should look at my edits in good faith.  If someone accuses me of breaking consensus nd I explain on the talk page that I am not breaking consensus, I think I hae a right to someone providing edit diffs i.e. evidence to prove I am wrong before reverting me... like the edit diffs I provide above (except - they show that what i have been protecting has been the consensus version). [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 23:00, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

: Or you are confused, or I am. The consensus version says "This article is about the Jewish religion. For consideration of ethnic, historic, and cultural aspects of the Jewish identity, see Jew." This I copied from the links you gave here. Isn't that what I restored? [[ser:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 23:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
::Ah, Debresser, I am sure I am confused about many things!  But I am not confused about this - I restored the lead to what it was a week ago, four weeks ago, four months ago ... [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 14:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
: Ok. Now I see it. The last edit you made restored the consensus version only in regard with the lead, but the disambiguation on the top was still wrong. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 23:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, here you are correct, but the disambiguation ought to be consistent with the article.  It should not have said what it said, its language should have been consistent with the lead.  this is a simple correction.  The real argument (If we must argue) is about the lead. [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 14:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
: But wait a second, didn'twe agree in the section before the last on the talkpage to replace "sets of beliefs and practices" by "religion"? So there is a new consensus about that. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 23:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
::I did not agree, and I do not see a lot of people agreeing following a thorough discussion so my opinion is that the consensus has not changed yet, I think one needs far more discussion with reliable sources brought in before the consensus version should be changed.  You know that you have made many edits that no one has challenged, people see the sense.  But I am not the only one to question this change.  It is not so simple as following the Shulchan Aruch, kol ha kavod.  This edit Blizzard claims is simple an non-controversial but it is not.  
Debresser, with all due respect, disambiguations should reflect the articles, not the other way around.  We work on the articles (Judaism, and Jews) and then we write disambiguation lines.  My revert was to the consensus version - a version that was stable for many months, a version that you seemed not to object to even as you were making many improvements to the article.  I think it is a minor and uncontroversial edit to change the disambiguation explanation to be consistent with the article.

Now, as for a new consensus, I do not see any long inclusive discussion leading to a new consensusl  I see two users you insist on this change and use what they consider logical arguments but with all due respect what I consider sophistry to argue their case.  Dod the Rishonim consider Judaism to be a "religion?"  Did the Tannaim?  For a long time, "Judaism" was the law of Israel, and that law included religious law and secular law.  The goyische word "religion" only has meaning in this modern world where religion, politics, economy are all considered separate institutions.  This was not the case in Medieval Europe, but modernity transformed these into separate institutions.  Now the question is, are they separate in Judaism?  Are beliefs about the economy, ideals about politics, and religion separeate, or intertwined?  I think they are intertwined.

But this is the important point: many others - historians and Jewish thinkers - in reliable sources, have also claimed they are intertwined, or that Judaism can mean different things.

And here is the big question: which is a better article: one that says Judaism is one thing, what one point of view believes?  Or one that says that Judaism is different things, ''including'' what one point of view believes and ''including'' other points of view? 

This is a simple question and I think this is the real issue.  It is not for us to say what Judaism is, when there are different points of view.  I have just edited the introduction, largely to restore the introduction we had for a very long time, because that introduction was inclusive of different views.  I was not erasing a view, I was making space for different views.

Blizzard's basic reason is that Christianity is a religion so Judaism must also be a religion.  I just do not see why, because Christians call themselves a religion, we must therefore also view judaism as a religion.  Maybe this is how Christians see things.  And if some Jews see things this way I will never criticize them.  But not all Jews see it this way.  Not all Jews think that since Christianity is a religion, Judaism has to be a religion too.  Some Juews think Judaism is more complicated than this.  And if some Christians do not understand this, well, I regret that but it does not mean that we have to change our introduction to say "Judaism IS a religion."  It can be a religion, and it can also be much more than that too. This is not my personal view. [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 14:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

: I myself don't like the new "religion" version. I liked the old "set of beliefs and pratices" better. This I have stated on the talkpage of Judaism as well. But since there were a few other editors who insisted, and they have acceptable arguments, I decided not to make an issue about it. But the hatnote you changed from the consensus version of many months, as you can see for yourself in the links you placed here, so that you shouldn't do. And another minor point: do not tell me what I "have or not have the right". [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 15:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is wrong of you to revert me claiming I am working against consensus.  Two editors who hav enot provided reliable sources does not make for a consensus. I will defer to you about the hatnote, but I would like to have a discussion about this.  [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 16:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

: Ok. That works for me. On [[Talk:Judaism#Judaism]]? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 17:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I am glad, and glad to continue discussing it on the article talk page.  I must say, though, that I still do not believe Blizzard's argument is acceptable.  He summed up his reason as saying that Christianity and Islam are identified as religions and Wikipedia should have uniformity.  There is no rule that Wikipedia should have uniformity (for example, our MOS allows articles to use BC/AD ''or'' BCE/CE), and I do not consider this in and of itself a good reason.  Christianity and Islam identify themselves as religions.  Perhaps one could have made an argument that the Saducees or Priests running the Temple constituted a Jewish religion, or that the Essenes were another Jewish religion.  But I think that even the Bible contains within it parts that are clearly about religion, and parts that are about other things, and that the Talmud is an inclusive record of much of Jewish life that again includes religion but other things as well.  I am very uncomfortable with the insistance that Judaism, whatever it is, has to be comparable to Christianity or Islam; that because they are described a certain way so should Judaism.  This argument does not come from a reliable source, it is just Blizzard's conviction, and I do not consider it an acceptable reason to change what had been stable language in the introduction. [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 18:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

== Citation templates ==

Could you point me to the discussion you mentioned [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Amalthea&diff=prev&oldid=324701374] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Amalthea&diff=prev&oldid=325024972] or summarise the bug? I've been working on other issues in {{tl|Citation/core/sandbox}} and I'm trying to figure out if what you mentioned was something that needed to be fixed there too? If you have a moment, could you also look over the tests that I linked in my last replies [[User talk:Amalthea#Template:Citation/core/sandbox|here]]? The current sandbox code looks ok to me but I always prefer to have those sort of changes double checked. --[[User:Tothwolf|Tothwolf]] ([[User talk:Tothwolf|talk]]) 17:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:Best I can tell, Amalthea's edit and my edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Citation/core/sandbox&diff=prev&oldid=323453419] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Citation/core/sandbox&diff=prev&oldid=323741105] should have fixed the IncludedWorkURL/OriginalURL/ArchiveURL issue with {{tl|Citation/core}} but please test {{tl|Citation/core/sandbox}} and make sure. I'm otherwise ready to do an editprotected request to get the other corrections I've made merged into the live version of the template. --[[User:Tothwolf|Tothwolf]] ([[User talk:Tothwolf|talk]]) 22:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:: That was fixed, I know. The issue left was about {{para|contribution-url}}. See the link to the sandbox in that section. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Ah, {{tl|Citation/sandbox}} then... I'll have a look at it. --[[User:Tothwolf|Tothwolf]] ([[User talk:Tothwolf|talk]]) 22:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Those edits in {{tl|Citation/sandbox}} look fine to me. The additions to OriginalURL would be somewhat redundant now with the OriginalURL/IncludedWorkURL changes to {{tl|Citation/core/sandbox}} but either way it won't hurt anything. --[[User:Tothwolf|Tothwolf]] ([[User talk:Tothwolf|talk]]) 23:53, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

== Broke Ref==
The reference is from is the same one from the economy sections in the first sentence, but when i copy and paste it to the opening it messes up? If you can fix it, u da man.--[[User:Threeblur0|Threeblur0]] ([[User talk:Threeblur0|talk]]) 21:05, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I dont understand how you did it, but u da man, thanks also.--[[User:Threeblur0|Threeblur0]] ([[User talk:Threeblur0|talk]]) 14:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

== NRHP references ==

Thanks for finding and fixing the broken references on these NRHP articles; they're often large enough that they take a while to access, so I don't often preview.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

: They were hard to find. It would have been better if the people who know what to look for and where to find it would have provided all the details from the start. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

::Pardon, but are you saying that I did something wrongly?  I'll not be unhappy if you say yes; I'm just unsure what you mean, and I'm happy to try to keep errors from happening.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

::: If I remember correctly these were edits I made a little over 2 weeks ago. So I don't remeber who was or were the editors who added the source without details. If it were you, then yes, by all means be carefull to always add full details about all references. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 05:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

== Slrubinstein ==

This is the user who once accused me of being a ''kid'', and now I am part of a ''tag team''.  The point is that Blizzard Beast came up with a legitimate edit, there was discussion around the edit, there were no moves to revert, but then slrubinstein comes along outside of the discussion and changes it. The user has to be made to understand that this will not be tolerated, no more than anything anyone of us would be tolerated in the same circumstance. Best, [[User:A Sniper|A Sniper]] ([[User talk:A Sniper|talk]]) 23:07, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you for posting. I was aware of the subject already, and have stated my opinion about the edit ''and'' the editwar on [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism#Judaism:_not_just_a_religion]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 06:15, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

== My oversight ==

Thank you for adding the link from Wikiproject Judaism to the Judaism Talk pag. [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 10:53, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

: You're welcome. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 15:59, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

== Sub Saharan Jews ==

Just a wee note to say, thanks for fixing that link for me! --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 11:26, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

: It was my pleasure. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 16:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

== Redesigning the citation errors ==

See [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Redesigning the citation errors]]. ---'''''—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue">&nbsp;</span>'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 19:47, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I have added my opinion as well. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

== Judaism article ==

What is your problem with my edits? The talkfest is attempting to [[Reinventing the wheel|reinvent the wheel]] by looking for a consensus where one already exists. There is more ways than one to get on ANI, and admins go there also--'''[[User:Meieimatai|<span style="color:	#0095B6">Meieimatai?</span>]]''' 23:13, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

: The problem has been explained to you at length by two editors on your talkpage. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 23:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

::Just in case you didn't notice it, I was not in the edit war, and promised nothing to nobody. 
::I did however promise to abide by Wikipedia policies, one of which is to provide readers with a ''source of information that makes sense''. After reading the talk page BEFORE making my edits, I came to the conclusion that common sense was abandoned, or never used at the start of the discussion in the first place. For me it would have been the first step to look at the other articles that connect to Judaism, and are found in the higher level category, i.e. religions. Has anyone done ''that''? There is a certain logical process one is suppose to follow before starting to type isn't there? Consensus is reached on four core and many sub- articles related to Judaism, but not on Judaism?! 
::Now just for a moment consider yourself writing an essay at university where you declare that Judaism is not a religion, but only 'beliefs and practices'. What mark do you think you will get for that essay?
::As for representing everyone's views, thats fine, but in the body of the article, not in the introduction. Minority opinions would not exist if Judaism did not exist as a religion, and it would not have survived 3000 years if it was not a religion either. It is only because of Judaism that atheism exists since both Christianity and Islam forbade it until quite recently in terms of history or religions. Please reconsider my edit, and allow common sense to prevail.--'''[[User:Meieimatai|<span style="color:	#0095B6">Meieimatai?</span>]]''' 23:41, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
::: Please understand that my main reason for reverting was the absense of prior consensus on the talkpage. Please see [[Talk:Judaism#Lift_protection]] that without that, no edits should be made to the lede of this article. You have posted your arguments there (in [[Talk:Judaism#Proposed_Wording]]), so now let's see if consensus will agree with you. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 23:51, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[2009 in Australian subscription television]] ==
Why did you remove the {{fact}} tags when you did not provide a reference?[[User:Reubot|Reubot]] ([[User talk:Reubot|talk]]) 01:20, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

== Ana WHO? ==

I'm wondering who the heck [[Ana Arendt]] (or [[Anne Arendt]], as Galisa recently wrote it at her attempt to get an admin to give me a whooping) is myself!  [[Hannah Arendt]], on the other hand, I certainly know.  ;)  [[User:A Sniper|A Sniper]] ([[User talk:A Sniper|talk]]) 01:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

== Halakha ==

Dear Debresser, the use of the TOF instead of the SOF is not "how we talk here". Both are used, though as a majority Ashkenazi, our custom in fact dictates the use of the Ashkenazi pronunciation. Recent popularization of the "Modern Hebrew" pronunciation does not mean "we" all talk that way. Also, in your responses regarding my correcting spellings, you should be sure not to misspell ENGLISH words. Read more. Good luck.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.229.28.18|72.229.28.18]] ([[User talk:72.229.28.18|talk]]) 02:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: You are, apart from insolent, also mistaken. What I told you is the Wikipedia '''rule'''. it is as simple as that. Taunt it, and you will not only be reverted, but also blocked from editing. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 02:25, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Your rebuttals are childish. As a Lubavitcher, I don't even see why you'd 1) site issue with the pronunciation or 2) waste your time on this narrischkeit.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.229.28.18|72.229.28.18]] ([[User talk:72.229.28.18|talk]]) 03:00, 16 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Chuvash poets ==

Hi. I saw your message in [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_November_12#Category:Chuvashs]] (seems that you placed it in the wrong thread). I wanted to point out that the word "Chuvash" is an adjective that refers to nationality, while "Chuvashian" is an adjective that refers to [[Chuvashia|Republic of Chuvashia]]. See [[:Category:Poets by nationality]] for reference. It lists "Afghan" and "Slovak" poets, not "Afghanistani" or "Slovakian". Chuvashes are the same case. [[User:Ali Savatar|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color:#00a651; background:fffe00; border-top:1px solid #ed1c24; border-bottom:1px solid #ed1c24; padding:.1em">Ali Savatar</span>]] 11:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
:Thank you for understanding! :) [[User:Ali Savatar|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color:#00a651; background:fffe00; border-top:1px solid #ed1c24; border-bottom:1px solid #ed1c24; padding:.1em">Ali Savatar</span>]] 12:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Dear sir, you seem to esteem yourself too highly. Any ordination you may hold is not relevant to this discussion. No one is questioning your knowledge. Are you always so condescending and accusatory?
Wikipedia "rule"? I have seen various sites using T, S, and Th. Where is the rule in that? If I am missing it please do correct me so I may know better. Right now, it just seems to be a common practice, not a rule. I am neither taunting you, nor it, nor is your use of 'insolent' warranted or appropriate. I merely pointed out that one should use correct spellings, especially when commenting on 'correct' or preferential spellings. I mean no disrespect to you, however you've been less than cordial to me.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.229.28.18|72.229.28.18]] ([[User talk:72.229.28.18|talk]]) 23:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Re:Protection templates ==

I am aware of the fact that Protection templates work only when added by an admin....Since the edit made prior to the removal of template from the [[Walt Disney]] article was vandalism, I restore the edit and the template....It was a oversight and I was under the impression that the page was protected...Anyways ...Sorry and Thnx for the reminder...[[User:Gprince007|Gprince007]] ([[User talk:Gprince007|talk]]) 13:09, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

: Ok. All is well that ends well. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 13:50, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

== Judaism suggestions ==

I'd value knowing what you think of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Judaism#Article_improvement_suggestions these ideas].  My main thought is this: the article already emphasizes (correctly, in my view) what Jews ''do'' over what they ''believe.''  But it strikes me that one thing Jews do a lot - or rather, one deed of central importance to Judaism, is ''to study''.  It is even in the words, "schul" or "Beis Midrash."  The point of my specific suggestions is that ''how'' Jews study, which involves theological assumptions (e.g. God in heaven is also studying, and the idea of lo b'shamayim hu, that perhaps God gives attention to the debates of the sages, so that when we study we are in a way in communion with God) as well as specific procedures and principles of logic and interpretation - e.g. Rabbi Ishmael's 13 rules from Sifra, which can be compared and contrasted to Western principles of logic and interpretation (e.g. Aristotle) and which can be applied to any text, not just strictly Jewish or religious ones - that ''characterize'' "Judaism" and thus merit explication in the article.  I am not the most qualifies person to write such a section.  I think you perhaps are.  In any event I'd like to know whether you think this idea has merit. [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 14:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

: I think it definitely has. I'll support such additions. My nature is that I am a [[Wikipedia:Wikignome|wikignome]], so I'll wait to see what is happening and make any corrections or comments when I see the need for them. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:42, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.  I do not believe I know enough to add content on this. I do wish others could develop this part of the article ... [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]]   |  [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 17:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

== Syntax advice wanted ==

I would like your advice on the syntax for {{tl|if pagename}}, since we are now deploying that template among others in the {{tl|cat handler}}. I have written up my question and some examples at [[Template talk:If pagename#Pattern syntax]], if/when you feel like it take a look.

--[[User:Davidgothberg|David Göthberg]] ([[User talk:Davidgothberg|talk]]) 19:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

: I'll be happy to look into it, but today I have been otherwise occupied. Didn't know I was an expert templater. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 01:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

::Haha, I admit that I don't know what your level of template coding is nowadays. (I've been away for too long on a wikivacation, for all I know you might have become "''Grand Master templateer''" while I was away. :)) What I do know is that you are a nice guy that is good to discuss with. And in this case, I like the advice from both experts and amateurs, since the syntax should if possible be readable also for the amateurs.
::And that reminds me: Anyone else reading this is of course very welcome to take a look and comment over at [[Template talk:If pagename#Pattern syntax]].
::--[[User:Davidgothberg|David Göthberg]] ([[User talk:Davidgothberg|talk]]) 18:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

::: Shame on you for advertising on my talkpage. :) I have indeed become a reasonable template editor with a few improvements on my account that I am really proud of. And I am glad you are back. I wish I'd see more people here from those whom I hold in esteem. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

== Trouble with Opinoso ==

Debresser, I am having trouble with Opinoso again. He has baseless reverted sourced information at the sime time he called it "personal theories". See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brazil&action=historysubmit&diff=326061912&oldid=326061084 here]. He also said that the renowned [[Barsa_(encyclopedia)|Enciclopedia Barsa]] is not a reliable source. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABrazil&action=historysubmit&diff=326060546&oldid=326052889 here]. he also again attacked me about the history section while it was discussed and settled by other editors. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABrazil&action=historysubmit&diff=326062019&oldid=326061670 here]. 

He simply reverts anything without even bothering to open a discussion thread or to wait other Editors opinions about it. I can not revert it back because it will become a revert war. How can I handle someone who has no respect for rules? - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 23:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
::Oh no... oh no... oh no... And look who has appeared out of nowhere immediately after I've complained about Opinoso's behavior? That [[User:Grenzer22]] guy! See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABrazil&action=historysubmit&diff=326064764&oldid=326063035 here]. I can't believe he is not a suckpuppet. Is there anyway to check both user's IPs? - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 23:35, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

::: Post on [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations]] describing your suspiscions and the reasons for them. If [[User:Opinoso|Opinoso]] is using a sockpuppet, both will be blocked. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 01:26, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

::::That is not the only problem. There is an user called [[User:Auréola|Auréola]] who made recent edits in the article. I did not agree with some of them and I created a topic in the discussion page to learn about the other editor's opinions about it. I did not change, erase or touched in anyway in what he wrote. Nothing. I just asked for other editor's opinions about it. I was amazed to see that he also used Darcy Ribeiro as source. What happened? This Auréola appeared in the discussion thread and take a look on what he wrote. In [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABrazil&action=historysubmit&diff=325356177&oldid=325020111 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABrazil&action=historysubmit&diff=325356486&oldid=325356177 here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABrazil&action=historysubmit&diff=325359594&oldid=325357996 here].

::::Just take a look at the links. See it by yourself. Tell me, Debresser, who does you know in Wikipedia that always use Darcy Ribeiro as source, enjoy using the words "very weird" to bring suspicious about other editors motives, complain that only Brazilians should write in the article about Brazil and accuses other editors of having ideological motives behind their edits? Yes, him. Opinoso.

::::And what happened next? Opinoso and Auréola [[User talk:Auréola#Brazil|became "friends"]] and now both have "joined forces" against me in [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Personal threats from User:Lecen|here]]. God, I thought it was over. But it isn't. I can't fight dirty like that. I just can't. - --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 10:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Debresser, Opinoso just posted this on the Brazil Talk Page:

::''The IBGE does count Blacks and Pardos as Blacks. This is not the place to discuss if IBGE is right or not. It is the official agency of the government, and it is the main source when it comes to racial figures about Brazil. I won't answer Ninguém, because this user is angry with me for months, since I realized he was using Phone Books and surnames of people from Brazilian colleges to claim they are of "Portuguese descent" (as if African Americans who have British surnames are of "British descent"). Since then, this user's account is dedicated to criticize me whatever there is an opportunity. I only ignore this user.''

I am asking for some action against this. Opinoso likes to slander me with that phone book foolery, and I take it as a personal attack. Thanks in advance. [[User:Ninguém|Ninguém]] ([[User talk:Ninguém|talk]]) 17:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

== Shabbat mode ==

Hi. I don't know a great deal about the subject, but your edits looked good. One question: In several places it's spelled "Sabbat mode" (without an "h" in Shabbat). Is that just a typo, or is there a reason for it? —&nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]</sub> 03:37, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

: Will fix. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 09:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

== Template merge completed ==

Hi. I know that the discussion results for the suggestion of merging {{tl|idwc}} and {{tl|idw-commons}} into {{tl|fdw-iw}} (aka {{tl|fdw-commons}}) were "no consensus", but it was a pretty logical and straight-forward issue. By making sure that the new template is backwards compatible to the old ones, hopefully there won't be any issues. I have completed the merge by adding some additional wording and attributes to {{tl|fdw-iw}}. &mdash;[[User:Willscrlt|<span style="color:#03D">Will</span><span style="color:#B01">scrlt</span>]]&nbsp;<small>(&nbsp;[[User talk:Willscrlt|“Talk”]]&nbsp;)</small> 11:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you for updating me. You made a good effort, and the result is just fine with me. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

== oDor 1988 ==

Yes!  Thanks for checking & fixing it!  [[User:Smith609|Martin]]&nbsp;'''<small>([[User:Smith609|Smith609]]&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User_talk:Smith609|Talk]])</small>''' 15:22, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

== Trouble with Opinoso, part 2, and hopefully, final. ==

You might think that the present dispute in the article about [[Brazil]] is nothing more than two editors (myself and [[User:Opinoso|Opinoso]]) who can not get along. However, I had never, ever, had any issue with another editor until I met this person. He, on the other hand, for a couple of years has been causing trouble and disruption in here, as I will prove to you now:

Opinoso has legally threatened twice another editor called [[User: Felipe Menegaz|Felipe Menegaz]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Felipe_Menegaz&diff=prev&oldid=139010004] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Felipe_Menegaz&diff=prev&oldid=149055510]). Opinoso writes in Portuguese, as he probably knows that most do not speak English in here. Below I translate piece of both messages:

:First message: “You have added several pictures of White Brazilians and, maliciously, erased pictures of Black, Mestizos and Asian Brazilians. If you have problems with racism, you should look after a psychiatry medic because, in Brazil, racism it is a crime with no bail and, in the future, you might end up in jail.”

:Second message: “Your ignorance manages to scare me. I did not know public education in Brazil was so decadent to the point of producing people like you. [...]  You probably have inferiority complex, because you must had wanted to be Nordic White but you are not. With all sure you are not descendant of European immigrants. [...] You are a Pardo boy who wanted to be European. It is really sad. I just warn you to be careful, because racism in Brazil it is a crime and I already have enough proofs to denounce you for this crime and put you in jail [...]. Those are enough motives to keep you behind bars for some years.”

This is the second time I (and other editors) have trouble with him on the article about [[Brazil]]. I found out that Opinoso got into serious discussions with other editors before, also accusing them of being racists. He accused editors [[User:João Felipe C.S|João Felipe C.S]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brazil&diff=prev&oldid=140310121] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brazil&diff=prev&oldid=151859049]), [[User:Sparks1979|Sparks1979]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brazil&diff=prev&oldid=160583755] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brazil&diff=prev&oldid=160814197]) and [[User: Felipe Menegaz|Felipe Menegaz]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rio_de_Janeiro&diff=prev&oldid=169471354]). Also, he is very, very aggressive towards other editors, such as with [[User:Janiovj|Janiovj]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Janiovj&diff=prev&oldid=149155672]). He also has no respect for rules or anything ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dalillama&diff=prev&oldid=156203862]) and he knows when to request from the other editor to speak in English ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dalillama&diff=prev&oldid=156203052]) He also frequently calls good faith edits from other users “vandalism”([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rio_de_Janeiro&diff=prev&oldid=194203420] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brazil&diff=prev&oldid=194088977] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SWik78&diff=prev&oldid=181895966]) if not “racists” ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Par%C3%A1&diff=prev&oldid=177071106] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amazonas_(Brazilian_state)&diff=prev&oldid=188137271]) when clearly they do not please him. And a user has complained to him to stop calling them “vandalism” but to no avail ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Carioca&diff=prev&oldid=196447028]).

Could you, for kindness, explain to me how someone like Opinoso, who legally threatens another editor and is abusive towards other editors it is still in here? It is clearly that for at least 2 years he has causing trouble and disruption in Wikipedia, nonetheless, he is still in here. Why he was not blocked? Why he still roaming freely around? --[[User:Lecen|Lecen]] ([[User talk:Lecen|talk]]) 01:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

:Already answered [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hoary&oldid=326515687#Dealing_with_user_Opinoso.2C_part_2. here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gwen_Gale&oldid=326521593#Opinoso_causing_troubles_and_legally_threatening_another_editor here]. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 12:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

:: Thanks to both editors for keeping me updated. I agree that [[User:Opinoso]] is a problematic editor, and that we might be better off without him. I have posted on [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive115#Brazil]], but (as happens far too often) nobody could care. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

== Bashert ==

Hi Dovid,

The debate at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bashert]] has closed as merge to Shidduch. Would you be able to take care of that merge? 

Also, when using the Talkback template, how do you update the person you're responding to after you've used the template once already for the same heading?

Thanks, [[User:Shlomke|Shlomke]] ([[User talk:Shlomke|talk]]) 22:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

: I will. Within another 12 hours.

: There is no way to do that. But if you add a whiteline, the person will receive a yellow "new message on your talkpage" bar, which usually is enough for the other guy to work it out. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 08:19, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

:: {{Done}} Feel free to improve. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 13:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

== Categories CSD ==

Just a quick reminder re your BOLD edits to No.6 - you will also need to edit the categories section of WP:CSD to keep the two pages in sync.  A bit of a nuisance I know, but one which I can't think of a way to solve at present.  --<b>[[User:Xdamr|<span style="font-family: Times"><span style="font-size:140%">X</span><span style="font-size:110%">damr</span></span>]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Xdamr|talk]]</sup></b> 00:52, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

: Right. Thanks. Forgot about that. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:: I have solved this by transcluding [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy criteria]] into [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion]], just as it is transcluded into [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion]], see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Speedy_criteria&diff=326843601&oldid=326834248 these] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&diff=326842177&oldid=326838416 three] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Speedy&diff=326843231&oldid=326820666 edits]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 01:10, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:::I thought about that solution, but decided against it for various reasons.  Firstly I feel as a philosophical matter, that the speedy criteria should be listed wholly and entirely at CSD, not subject to tranclusion from other pages.  This makes the CSD page the complete and unified statement of the various criteria and also means all changes will be highlighted for those who have this policy page watchlisted.  I don't like the idea of changes going unnoticed because they were made to a transcluded page that most people don't know exists.  Secondly, the question of anchor links.  I was concerned that widely used shorthand forms such as [[WP:CSD#C1]] would no longer work if the page was transcluded.  Having just tested this, it appears that I was wrong, and they do in fact work.

:::<b>[[User:Xdamr|<span style="font-family: Times"><span style="font-size:140%">X</span><span style="font-size:110%">damr</span></span>]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Xdamr|talk]]</sup></b> 01:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:::: I can relate to your point, but refuse to let it complicate my life. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 01:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::Strong, robust attitude - I like it!  Cfd is already complicated enough, why burden ourselves more than we have to?  Aside from my brief episode of philosophical hand-wringing above, I'm actually happy with the change - especially now I know the anchor links work.  That was what really kept me from doing this myself, though, bizzarely in hindsight, I didn't ever try and check my hypothesis that they would break.  We'll have to see if any of the CSD regulars have similar philosophical issues, but, otherwise, the issue seems resolved - good job.

:::::<b>[[User:Xdamr|<span style="font-family: Times"><span style="font-size:140%">X</span><span style="font-size:110%">damr</span></span>]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Xdamr|talk]]</sup></b> 02:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

== Edit to Template:Cite web/doc ==

Debresser, can you please self-revert your last edit to [[Template:Cite web/doc]]? The text that you are reverting to is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ACite_web%2Fdoc&action=historysubmit&diff=308571511&oldid=308570496 brand new] as of August, so I find the claim that it has some sort of standing to be... wrong. This sort of aggressive editing isn't very conducive to collegial collaboration.<br/>— [[User:Ohms law|<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>I</i> * <i>R</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Ohms law|talk to Ω]]) 13:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

: It has been there for more than three whole months, while the removal is brand new. Just that you should know, I come from the "field". See [[User:Debresser/My_work_on_Wikipedia#Wikipedia_problematic_articles]]. I must have fixed over 10,000 references errors by now. And the comment you are removing is very relevant. I have no problem with consensus reaching stupid decisions, but at least let them do it first. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 13:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

::Three months is hardly any time for a page such as this, though. I wan't even aware of the change until this week. We're not talking about the Village Pump here, and there was ''zero'' discussion about it on the talk page talking about changing the instructions in this manner anyway. This edit therefore fails in multiple ways.
::<s>I'd also seriously question the "work" that you've been doing to "fix" references.</s> Please see the conversation on [[Template talk:Cite web]] before continuing further edits only to change use of the work/publisher parameter in {{tl|cite web}} templates. Attempting to forcing consensus in this manner is just not good (and I don't see comments insinuating that I'm "stupid" in some manner to be very helpful).<br/>— [[User:Ohms law|<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>I</i> * <i>R</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Ohms law|talk to Ω]]) 13:44, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

*<small>I've notified [[User:SMcCandlish]] about this discussion, as well.<br/>— [[User:Ohms law|<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>I</i> * <i>R</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Ohms law|talk to Ω]]) 13:47, 20 November 2009 (UTC)</small>

:::# I never said ''you'' are stupid.
:::# I was not talking about "mass edits". I was talking about my daily [[Wikipedia:Wikignome|wikignoming]], for which I have received various rewards and many thanks from fellow editors.
:::# Three months is really enough for such a heavily discussed template like {{Tl|Cite web}}. Other changes have been reverted withing the day in the past, like yours... So this argument is really not to the point. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 13:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
:::#: regarding #1) there is an implication in your statement, regardless of whether or not it was intentional. Regarding #2) I already adjusted my statement above, slightly. I'm happy that you've received awards for editing, that's terrific, but... I'm not really sure how it's relevant here. Regarding #3) erhm... your wrong. First, there are only [http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/cgi-bin/watcher.py?db=enwiki_p&titles=Template_talk:Cite_web ~170-180 watchers] of the talk page, so stating that it's "heavily discussed" is disingenuous. Template talk pages have discussion crop up when it's needed, but very few users actively maintain those pages on a long term basis. I'd also like to point out that I didn't make the change. If there is actual consensus for it then we should go ahead and do that, but there has been no real consensus building here for ''this solution''. Something should change, but this is a decidedly sub-optimal solution, and edit warring over it is hardly constructive.<br/>— [[User:Ohms law|<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>I</i> * <i>R</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Ohms law|talk to Ω]]) 14:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
:::#:# It takes two to edit war...
:::#:# So here we disagree. A ''template'' with 170-180 watchers, who have repeatedly been known to jump in within a day, I call heavily discussed. Not only in comparison with other templates, but also in absolute terms. Enough to say that anything that stays there for a week, let alone over three months, has consensus. So ''you'' didn't notice it untill a week ago. That may say more about you and your involvement with Wikipedia and this template in particular. You may want to discuss this with other editors, whom, I'm sure, you will find to agree with me at least on this account. I wish you a nice day, but the Jewish [[Shabbath]] forces me to leave the discussion for the moment. I'll be happy to rejoin it in another 26 hours. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:16, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
:::#:#:I'll just ignore the insulting insinuations about what I do or do not know, and simply ask that you allow the [[WP:BRD]] process to properly occur. A bold change was made, which is great. It's been reverted. we should be discussing the change on the talk page, not re-reverting the change.<br/>— [[User:Ohms law|<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>I</i> * <i>R</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Ohms law|talk to Ω]]) 14:31, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent) Re: "Revert (again). How about we finish the discussion on the talk page before edit warring over this?" (edit summary from {{User|Ohms law}}):

A: Several months is more than enough time.  Per [[WP:BOLD]], [[WP:FILIBUSTER]], [[WP:CONSENSUS]], etc., productive, good faith editing is not to be held up by a "lone ranger" objector. There is no active controversy on that talk page, there is simply [[User:Ohms law]] reverting without fully understanding.

B: There is nothing at all even potentially controversial about the part I restored. I really don't care about the part that I did not restore, nor do I see how anyone could find it objectionable enough to have reversion fit about it, but oh well.  The part I restored is plain and 100% factual.  Some boneheads do not understand how the citation templates work, nor grok that their application must be consistent. My one sentence addition helps fix that.

PS: I am not watching this page; if someone wants to argue with me, they can come find me. I think it would be more productive to keep this discussion on the template talk page. — <b><span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]</span></b> &#91;[[User talk:SMcCandlish|talk]]&#93; &#91;[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|cont]]&#93;  <b>‹(-¿-)›</b> 14:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:"Lone ranger"? comeon... it's not as though there was a widespread community discussion about this, and if you actually read the discussion that is occuring on the talk page you'll see that i'm hardly alone.
:And again with the name calling. It's great to be called "boneheaded" in addition to "stupid". Real nice attitudes here, people. Now I'm actually starting to get upset.<br/>— [[User:Ohms law|<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>I</i> * <i>R</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Ohms law|talk to Ω]]) 14:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:: You are edit warring against two editors, out of stated aggrevation. Apart from that you are undoing a valuable and consensus edit. Any more reverts by you will be posted on [[WP:ANI/3RR]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 16:10, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

:::See, that wasn't actually hard, now was it? There's no need to be a [[meta:Don't be a dick|DICK]] if you're actually willing to work with others. If you really want to go to a noticeboard though, feel free.<br/>— [[User:Ohms law|<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>I</i> * <i>R</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Ohms law|talk to Ω]]) 20:18, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

:::: One man's freedom fighter is the other man's terrorist. So I have my own opininon, who was the real [[wp:dick|dick]] here. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:46, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

== Editing a large article ==

Hi,

It's me, again. Nothing to fix - yet :-). Just a question. How do you edit the first part of an article that is too large to edit as a whole when that first section doesn't have a separate "edit" button? Thanks. -- [[User:Michael David|Michael David]] ([[User talk:Michael David|talk]]) 14:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

: How can an article be "too large to edit"? And why doesn't it have an "edit" button? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 16:16, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

::I came across one the other day, but I can't remember which article it was. It had a main "Edit this Page" button, but when I tried to edit the first section (which did not have a separate edit button) it beeped at me and wouldn't allow an edit. If I come across one again, I'll put the link here. Thanks. -- [[User:Michael David|Michael David]] ([[User talk:Michael David|talk]]) 17:40, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
If you look at some of the monobook scripts they allow editing of section 0.  However the article should be split if it is that long (and I have edited some pretty big articles).  It should also show up at one of the special pages I think. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 12:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC).

== Category:Analysis ==

Hi Debresser, could you have a look at [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_November_14#Category:Analysis]] ? Is that good enough as a rationale ? Thanks [[User:Mion|Mion]] ([[User talk:Mion|talk]]) 17:23, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

: Ok. Keep me posted please, because I do not usually follow up on Cfd after I have placed my vote. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 17:55, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
:: I will, thanks for expressing your opinion. [[User:Mion|Mion]] ([[User talk:Mion|talk]]) 18:21, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
:::The closing admin closed it as delete.[[User:Mion|Mion]] ([[User talk:Mion|talk]]) 15:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

== Reflists ==

Hi Debresser, long time no see! I hope all is well. Much of my time at the moment is taken up with work and general living, when I am editing here it is usually doing article creation or rewriting. My total time on Wikipedia is ''way'' down from previous months. I'll try to help out with the missing reflist pages when I can, but I can't honestly promise anything. Have you thought about asking at the [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)|tech village pump]] to see if anyone else has a bot that could do more references work? I know bots don't work in all cases, but the majority can be solved this way. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]]<small> ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy#top|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Sillyfolkboy|edits]])</small>''[[User:Sillyfolkboy/A|<sup style="color:#0B7C08;">Join WikiProject Athletics!</sup>]]'' 11:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

: I'll be happy with any help you can give. [[User:SmackBot|SmackBot]] can fix most things, but as of late [[User:Rich Farmbrough]], who operates this bot, has been eradic in editing. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 11:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Tis done. I have run that task yesterday too - well see the log. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 11:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC).

== Profanity ==

{{tb|Newman Luke|Forbidden relationships in Judaism}}
{{tb|Newman Luke|Forbidden relationships in Judaism}}

== New page on Reb Zushya ==

After saying in my last correspondence to you that, as of now there isn't a page on Zushya of Anipoli, since then I've found his recently created one! It wasn't linked up to the pages I had visited, but I've now linked it to the reference on [[Hasidic philosophy]] with a redirect. The new page is [[Zusha of Hanipol]]. Best Wishes [[User:April8|April8]] ([[User talk:April8|talk]]) 20:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

: Thanks for keeping me updated. Other pages can link there directly or via redirects (since the term "of Hanipol" is less common than "of Anipoli"). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[Judaism]] dispute ==

I noticed you are having a difference of opinion on the [[Judaism]] article, and have made a content reversion without discussing the issue on the article Talk: page. Discuss this on the talkpage and do not edit the article without reaching consensus first. We have only recently unprotected the page, and can not tolerate any more edit-wars here. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup>[[User_talk:Jayjg|<small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk)</small>]]</sup> 22:05, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

: I have posted your aggressive behavior on [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Jayjg]], because you are turning the truth 180 degrees. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Debresser - I [[WP:AGF|assume you are acting here in good faith]] but reviewing both the WQA and ANI threads, it is evident that there's consensus at both pages that you were an involved party and causing a large part of the problem, whether you thought you were doing so as a topic-uninvolved independent editor or not.

Please work on communicating more effectively when you make edits, particularly reverts.  Also, perhaps take a break from that article.  There are plenty of others monitoring it who can keep it from being biased too badly.

Thank you.  [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 18:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

: I have communicated clearly, the diffs are on [[Wikipedia:WQA#User:Jayjg|WP:WQA]]. I was not involved in the subject, and anybody who says otherwise (illogical as it is that people should have opinions about what is in my mind) is mistaken, either in good faith or not. Your "advise" is completely redundant, because I have already stated that I acknowledge that my intervention is not having the desired result, as well as that I have no intent to become involved in the content dispute itself. In all, your post is like rubbing salt in open wounds and not appreciated. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
: That does not mean in think you posted in bad faith, just that I feel you have not considered everthing that has been said thoroughly enough. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:54, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::Debresser, I would like to apologize for the tone of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts&diff=prev&oldid=327397013 my comment] at WQA.  After I posted it, I realized that part of it could be read with a tone much more negative than I had intended.  I wanted to come back and strike out some of the words, but by the time I logged in again the thread had been archived. 
::In answer to your question:  No, I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out that Jayjg's comment used many of the same words and similar pattern as yours.  
::We're each just trying to help in our own way.  I hope things go well for you. <span style="color:Orangered; font-size:17pt;">☺</span>[[User:Coppertwig|Coppertwig]] ([[User talk:Coppertwig|talk]]) 16:41, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
::: I appreciate this. Best of luck for you as well. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 16:49, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

== Speedy criterion 6 ==

Your removal of this criterion (second time) has been reverted by another editor before I had the chance to do it. All of Cfd is completely in favor of this criterion, and a few opinions on the Village Pump are not considered relevant. See e.g. [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_November_18#Category:Mixed_martial_artists_from_Georgia]]. I do not mean to start a discussion with you about this, because if you want to discuss this the right place would be on [[Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion]], I just wanted to inform you why you are being reverted. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 20:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
*You seem to have me at a disadvantage.  If the discussion to re-instate it doesn't need to happen at [[Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion]], I don't see how you feel you can dictate to me where I discuss things.  Perhaps the next time you post to someone's talk page you can find a less confrontational way of doing it.  Cheers pal, [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:54, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
:::I've reverted it and started a discussion at the talk page.  Best to comment there, explaining why you feel you can label the opinions of fellow editors as irrelevant. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 22:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::::I don't mind anyone restoring it after a widely advertised discussion at the village pump or some other central area where everyone has the chance to participate.  I don't even mind what your opinion is on how relevant other people's opinions are, as long as you agree that your opinion is no basis to create Wikipedia policy.  [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 22:17, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::::*And by the way, if you want to come to my talk page and assert you are acting in good faith, you might want to think twice about what you place in your edit summaries. In four and a half years as a Wikipedian you are the second person to accuse me of edit warring, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hiding&diff=327550120&oldid=327548265]. Cheers pal. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 22:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: I hope the first one is still alive? :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:24, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::Indef blocked as a troll. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 22:25, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::: [[File:Smiley.svg|20px]] Nevertheless, you have been informed that consensus is otherwise, and insists on reverting. That comes close to edit warring. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:36, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

== AWB ==

Something like 

\n(==+) *([^=].*[^=]) *==+ *\n

replace with 

\n$1 $2 $1\n

options reg-ex and multi-line.

''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 13:00, 24 November 2009 (UTC).

:* Thanks. That worked, but with two buts:
:# It doesn't work if the article starts with a header (and I would like it to, because many articles there start with a header there)
::^(==+) *([^= ].*[^= ]) *==+ *\n
:# It tries to add an ''additional'' second space at the end when I revisit the page.
::\n(==+) *([^= ].*[^= ]) *==+ *\n
:* How can I make it change <nowiki>[[Image:uncapitalised]] to [[File:Capitalised]]</nowiki>?

\[\[Image:a

replace with 

\[\[File:A

etc..
:* Where can I read about how to program such things myself? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 13:51, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

[[Regex]]. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 15:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC).

In the above example of files and images, it replaced "[[Image" by "\[\[File". When I used simply "[[Image" and "[[File" it worked. I had to uncheck "regex" and "multiline". [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:18, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

This is better:

\[\[(Image|File):a

replace with 

[[File:A

etc.. will capitalise file:aardvark for you

After the change you made to the header detection, it now adds a second whiteline in front of headers. What to do? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Change the replace to

$1 $2 $1\n

the first  \n (newline) is no longer needed.

''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 23:14, 24 November 2009 (UTC).

== [[Special school]] ==

Would you be interested in posting a comment here: [[WP:RM]] [[Talk:Special school#Requested move|discussion]]? [[User:Rovea|Rovea]] ([[User talk:Rovea|talk]]) 22:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

: Yes, and I have. Along the same lines as in the Cfd discussion. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:26, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
::I don't see your comment at the [[Talk:Special school#Requested move|discussion]]. [[User:Rovea|Rovea]] ([[User talk:Rovea|talk]]) 15:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

::: Because I didn't know at that time how to use the [[WP:RM]] page, and I placed my commentaries there. Not only about the move you drew my attention to, but about a few others as well. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 15:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

::::Well are you going to add a comment? I still don't see it. [[User:Rovea|Rovea]] ([[User talk:Rovea|talk]]) 16:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

::::: {{Done}} [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 18:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::Thanks. [[User:Rovea|Rovea]] ([[User talk:Rovea|talk]]) 19:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

== Completely unambiguous? ==

Debresser, if you think the term "Jew by heritage" is really "completely unambiguous", then you should have no trouble answering the questions. Does "Jew by heritage" mean someone with two Jewish parents? Someone with one Jewish parent? A Jewish grandparent? A Jewish great-grandparent? Someone who is married to a Jew? If the child of a Catholic and a Jew is being raised in the Catholic faith, are they a "Jew by heritage"? If their sibling is being raised in the Jewish faith, are they a "Jew by heritage"? If a term is "completely unambiguous", then you should have no trouble immediately saying "yes" or "no" to all of these questions, and anyone else who answers them should have identical answers. So, what are the specific answers? [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup>[[User_talk:Jayjg|<small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk)</small>]]</sup> 00:44, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

: Indeed the answers are easy to give. If any of the parents/grandparents/etc. was Jewish, then so is the child/grandchild/etc. of Jewish heritage. Later in the article it will be specified that mainstream Judiasm recognises only the matrilineary decent, etc., but first establish that it is, by all means, a matter of heritage. This also answers the other questions: how a child was raised does not matter (the details about "hishtamed", forced conversion, "tinok shenishba" etc. can come later, or in another, more specific article); marriage does not have the least impact on one's Jewishness, etc. So yes, in my opinion, the word "heritage" says it all. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 06:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

== Tallit ==

Hi Debresser,

Here is what I have been able to discover:

# "Upon arising for ''Selichos''... in Ashkenazic communities, it is customary for the prayer leader to put on a ''tallis'' even though it is still night." [http://books.google.ca/books?id=gISl55geRaAC&pg=RA1-PA1042&dq=Sephardi+tallis&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false]
# "The only time the tallit is worn at night is on Yom Kippur - at Kol Nidre - which, after all, begins during the daylight hours... we wear the tallit only in the daylight. Once we have put it on for Kol Nidre, however, we take it off only after the ''ma'ariv'' service." [http://books.google.ca/books?id=oXhBgCJjCmcC&pg=PA73&dq=ma%27ariv+tallit&lr=#v=onepage&q=ma'ariv%20tallit&f=false]
# Slightly varied information here: [http://books.google.ca/books?id=_qGHi_9K154C&pg=PT232&dq=mincha+tallit#v=onepage&q=mincha%20tallit&f=false]

I hope this helps you in expanding the information on the [[Tallit]] article!

Happy editing,

[[User:Neelix|Neelix]] ([[User talk:Neelix|talk]]) 16:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you! I'll work on it today. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 17:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
: {{Done}} [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 18:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
::Hi Debresser,

::Nice additions! I'm glad the sources came in handy.

::[[User:Neelix|Neelix]] ([[User talk:Neelix|talk]]) 14:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

== Template:Otherpersons3 ==

Thanks for that minor edit on the template. I'd copied it directly from {{tl|otherpersons}}, which ''is'' protected, and so ''does'' have that template. On the other hand, discussion suggests the new feature may simply get merged back into {{tl|otherpersons}}, so everything will end up protected again anyway. Ahhh, so safe.... :)  <small>— [[User:Sizzle Flambé|'''Sizzle&nbsp;Flambé''']] ([[User_talk:Sizzle Flambé|☎]]/[[Special:Contributions/Sizzle_Flambé|✍]]) 21:20, 25 November 2009 (UTC)</small>

: That's just the way things work: protect, unprotect, protect, unpr... :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

== Request for comment ==

Hi.  You recently participated in a debate regarding Categories for deletion criteria G6: Disambiguation fixes from an unqualified name.  Your input would be appreciated at [[Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion#Request for comment on Categories for deletion criteria G6: Disambiguation fixes from an unqualified name|this RFC]].  Thanks for your time. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 14:32, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you. I'll have a look right now. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 19:35, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

: I had to repress an urge to add a note saying: This Rfc is a follow-up of another discussion [[Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion#G6|above]], where all editors (to whom the [[User:Hiding]] has refered as "experienced editors at Cfd") have disagreed with the instigator of this Rfc, and this Rfc should thus be considered forum-shopping. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:11, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
::I already linked to the discussion.  I was trying to be as neutral as possible per instructions, but if you prefer I will strike the word "experienced".  We can certainly discuss forum shopping; the best place to start would be how that would apply to this cfd: [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 November 18#Category:Mixed martial artists from Georgia]].  Personally I envisage this RFC lasting roughly a week or longer as the conversation dictates, and then getting someone in via the admin's noticeboard to summarise.  And then job done, move on whichever way the chips fall. If the criterion remains, its consensus has been strengthened and supporters have something substantial to refer people to if it is ever challenged again. Perhaps we both need to have a read of [[Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot]] and [[Wikipedia:Etiquette]], keep our egos in check and work to resolve this disagreement in the spirit of Wikipedia's best behavioural practises like the long-standing editors we are, to set a good example to those that come after us. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:31, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

::: Don't worry, in the end I didn't write this note. I don't like to be petty. But I do think you are being unreasonably obstinate in this case. That is why I decided to let you have a look at this. Nobody else will see this, likely. BTW, I didn't notice even 1 discussion on Cfd where we agreed. Isn't that extraordinary? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
::::It's entirely possible the situation may have resolved itself a lot better had conversations played out differently. I don't think a neutral observer would agree there is only one obstinate editor involved in the dispute.  All I tend to do is work through the options at [[WP:DR]].  I haven't understood why that has proven so objectionable, but there you have it. As to CFD, you'll find we actually agree far more than we disagree. I don't tend to opine unless I disagree with the way a debate is going, so we tend to be in agreement on most debates currently open. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 22:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: I see. Good. Because I found that really strange. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:20, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

== Interesting answer ==

It's a throwback to the days when Hagermanbot used to do the job, although it went a bit weird and that was one way some of us were trying to force it to sign our pages. The category used to be [[:Category:Non-talk pages automatically signed by HagermanBot]].  You'll have to ask the person who emptied and deleted that as to why I have the new category on my page. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:48, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
*Ah, well, it's just as likely my fault for leaving it there.  Who can tell. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 22:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[Safek Brakha Daoraita]] ==

Hi again. this Afd closed as merge to [[Berakhah]]. Perhaps you would have the time to merge this one too? 

Thanks, [[User:Shlomke|Shlomke]] ([[User talk:Shlomke|talk]]) 07:10, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

: I do. That is not a big article. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 09:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

:: {{Done}} See [[Talk:Berakhah]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 09:49, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

== CfM etc ==

Not forgotten. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 10:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC).
:Looks like its done. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 22:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC).
:: That was about time. Wonder who did that? And where he got that strange edit summary? :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Well it's quicker with AWB, Even if I did break one of the top 100 templates today...  And no reason you can't use DMC since it is just the parameters that would be substed. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 22:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC).
: Well, three of the templates are protected, so I propose you do it. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Well lets let this bed in. Not sure there's much to be gained from DMC - DMCC perhaps. What needs doing to talk pages etc? ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 22:41, 30 November 2009 (UTC).

== Your note ==

I have semi-protected the article per your request. [[User:Crum375|Crum375]] ([[User talk:Crum375|talk]]) 22:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

: I guess you found more convincing reasons to do so than just my request. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

== Invade-tation ==

{| class="messagebox standard-talk"
|-
|[[Image:The Prodigy Wikiproject logo.svg|100px|The Prodigy... Liam Howlett has founded the group.]]
|align="center"|This user which is sending you a message have seen you doing something to a [[The Prodigy]]-related thing. That looks like you are going to be in '''[[WP:THE PRODIGY|The Prodigy Wikiproject]]'''! This WikiProject is founded by the now Defunct, but blocked, [[User:Guitarherochristopher]], and It aims to Improve Coverage of the [[Alternative Music|Alternative]] [[Electronica|Electronic]] [[Dance Punk|Punk]] [[Breakbeat|Rock-hop]] trio, [[The Prodigy]]. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_The_Prodigy#List Of Members|Join the project now or later]].

This message is sent by [[Special:Contributions/75.101.66.46|75.101.66.46]] [[Special:Contributions/75.101.66.82|75.101.66.82]] ([[User talk:75.101.66.82|talk]]) at 23:38, 30 November 2009 (UTC).
|}

Actually, I was just [[Wikipedia:Wikignome|wikignoming]], i.e. fixing something small. Joining a project was not my intention. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 23:50, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|AfD]] nomination of [[List of cities by GDP]] ==
[[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|left|48px|]]An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for [[Wikipedia:Deletion process|deletion]]. The nominated article is [[List of cities by GDP]]. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also [[Wikipedia:Notability]] and "[[WP:NOT|What Wikipedia is not]]").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cities by GDP]]. Please be sure to [[WP:SIG|sign your comments]] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the [[WP:AfD|articles for deletion]] template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate.

'''Please note:''' This is an automatic notification by a [[WP:BOT|bot]]. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --[[User:Erwin85Bot|Erwin85Bot]] ([[User talk:Erwin85Bot|talk]]) 01:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

== Transclusion in templates ==

I saw you added and then removed <nowiki>{{Templaterefsection}}</nowiki> to [[Template:KwaraStateGovernors]]. Maybe you can give me advice on this ...

Nigeria has 36 states, each of which has had 5-15 governors since it was created. There are lists of governors for each state, like [[List of Governors of Adamawa State]], which I suppose are sort-of useful. I have been trying to make them consistent, and transcluded them all into [[List of all Nigerian state governors]] so I could compare them. Maybe that one is sort-of useful too. But where I really want to go is transclude the lists into navbox templates like the one you looked at, and stick them at the foot of the article for each governor, like [[Bukola Saraki]]. (O.k., that article needs a whole lot of work, but that is a different problem.)

I think navbox templates linking a collection of related articles are genuinely useful. Someone interested in one of these governors may well click on other entries in the navbox, and start browsing from one subject to another, which is exactly what we want readers to do. I think the transclusion approach is good too, because that way someone doing a search on "Kwara Governor" will see the list right away, where a template would not show in the search results. And by transcluding the list into the template there is only one list to be maintained. But refs in the transcluded text don't work, or not for the average editor. I can see you have been playing with it. Any advice or comments on technicalities or on the approach in general would be welcome. Thanks. [[User:Aymatth2|Aymatth2]] ([[User talk:Aymatth2|talk]]) 04:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

: Have replied in some detail at [[User_talk:Aymatth2#Transclusion_in_template_-_reply]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 11:17, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply - that is what I suspected. Not a big deal. The lists are "mere facts" (not subject to copyright) so it is not particularly important to carry the references forward. The only problem I see is that an editor who doesn't understand what is happening will add a ref to one of the lists, causing error messages in articles that use the template. I will add a standard warning comment to the lists. Probably not really an issue at all. Thanks, [[User:Aymatth2|Aymatth2]] ([[User talk:Aymatth2|talk]]) 13:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

== Ratings template ==

Per your question [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 December 2#Template:Rating-5|here]], the {{Tl|Rating-5}} template can be replaced with {{Tl|Rating}} using '5' as the second argument. For example, if the entry says <nowiki>{{Rating-5|3}}</nowiki>, then you can replace it with <nowiki>{{Rating|3|5}}</nowiki>. The output should be identical, as you can see in examples such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Redefining_Music&diff=prev&oldid=329306362 this]. --[[User:RL0919|RL0919]] ([[User talk:RL0919|talk]]) 22:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you. I was just about to replace the reamining usages, when I found that there were only three left. So that's all I fixed. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

== Category:Pages containing cite templates with deprecated parameters ==

We are down to 600+ here and another 200+ in the old cat. Be good to get this empty. I am suggesting that <year> and <month> be deprecated in favour of (and potentially merged into) <date> - they were also part of the auto-formatting  problem (<date> was auto-formatted and "July 1981" might have been a red-link).  What do you think? ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 15:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC).

: I was reluctant to propose that, because many (VERY many) references have {{para|year}} and no date parameter. But I would support this: one accessdate parameter, and one date parameter. The thing is that many books cite only a year of publication, and calling that a "date" might be confusing. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 16:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
: Another problem is where to discuss this. The previous deprecations were discussed only on {{Tl|Cite web}}, and I boldly implemented them everywhere. You may try doing the same. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 16:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
:: Well I would use "deprecated" rather than obsolete.  I.E. removed from the documentation, maybe an AWB general fix or I suggested RjwilmsiBot to remove/merge in due course. Certainly a GF to remove blank month/year fields would help. I don't think calling a year a date is confusing. Unless you were going on a date. Then it could be very confusing.  ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 16:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC).
Cool. These are not necessarily hard, but they are different. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 02:36, 4 December 2009 (UTC).
:No it means I write a rule and it picks up maybe 10 or 20 articles. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 02:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC).

Ran some old rules against the [[:Category:Pages containing cite templates with deprecated parameters]], rather successfully. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 08:28, 13 December 2009 (UTC).

: Indeed. I'll try to clean up the rest. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 10:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

== Cite video ==

Depends why date is deprecated. Would have thought the aim would be to end up with the simplest parameter name. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 21:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC).

== April ==

Yes I am aware that there is a preponderance of "01"s, in many articles. I assumed that it was probably CitationBot. If you can deal with them that's fine, although I expect CitationBot can cite the cite, and there is a database somewhere either assigning "1" or they have a nominal date of the 1st.  Basically do what you wish as long as it is good sense and doesn't reintroduce deprecated or likely deprecated fields.  ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 23:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC).

== Takkanos Shum ==

Hi. I'm not sure what you meant in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Takkanot_Shum&action=historysubmit&diff=330409420&oldid=330409240 this edit summary]? I think we were edit conflicting; did I overwrite something? -- [[User:Avraham|Avi]] ([[User talk:Avraham|talk]]) 06:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

: Yes, you did. See the edit history. But it was not anything important. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 06:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
::Sorry about that. -- [[User:Avraham|Avi]] ([[User talk:Avraham|talk]]) 13:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

: Don't be. You did a great job rewriting the article. But I did have a remark/question, which I left on the talk page. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 14:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

::Responded; what can we do to make the article better? -- [[User:Avraham|Avi]] ([[User talk:Avraham|talk]]) 15:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

Thank you. I have been through a months-long mediation in the past, and come to the conclusion that just working in an orderly manner is far better <g>.   [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 11:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

: Likely. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 13:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

== Night of the Demons 2010: help? ==

Hi! I was wondering if you could help me semi-protect the page or at least to keep an eye on it. There's an unregistered user who keeps trying to add in lengthy & unproven character information for the movie. I've asked them to do a synopsis if they've seen the movie or knows someone who has, but to no avail. Thanks for any help or at least for reading this! [[User:Tokyogirl79|Tokyogirl79]] ([[User talk:Tokyogirl79|talk]]) 21:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)tokyogirl79

: One day, sooner or later, somebody will write that plot. Don't worry: this article is in good shape, believe me. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 22:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

== Re:Kosovo-geo-stub ==

Hi Debresser - about [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Kosovo-geo-stub&curid=15626386&diff=330533833&oldid=330135886 this edit] - first, sorry. I forgot to remove the protection tag when I unprotected the template. About your other comment, though - given that all stub templates are basically fed from one all-encompassing stub /doc file, protection tags and i/w links always go on the template itself. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

: I have to admit that I just copied one of the two edit summaries I always use when doing my [[Wikipedia:Wikignome|wikignoming]] in [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with incorrect protection templates]], and din't even consider your obviously true point. Thank you. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 08:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

== Why are you posting this here? ==

[[User:Debresser|Debresser]], is there some reason you are posting this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bus_stop#As_a_suggestion here?] It is very nice that you are giving a [[WP:BARN|barnstar]] to [[User:Collect|Collect]]. But why am I being notified? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 15:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

: As a suggestion that all involved add a small word of appreciation. I left the same note on a few more user talk pages. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 15:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I liked your idea of giving a barnstar to Collect and just left a supportive little note on his talk page.  The admins work hard and not every one could accomplish what Collect did, in terms of making the Judaism discussion more constructive.  --[[User:AFriedman|<span style="color:navy;"><b>AFriedman </b></span>]][[User talk:AFriedman|<span style="color:#303030;"><b>(talk)</b></span>]] 03:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

== [[2004 Indian Ocean earthquake]] ==

Thank you for taking care of that protection template that I forgot to remove. - [[User talk:2over0|2/0]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/2over0|cont.]])</small> 00:47, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

: My pleasure. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
:: That was 5 years ago!  Oh my. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 00:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC).

== Reflist ==

No I can do a more thorough reflist run shortly. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 00:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC).

: That would be good. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 00:52, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
:: Done also about 38 of those userspace  pages. 

== Marine camels ==

As a Dutchman, do you happen to know anything about marine camels and waterships? [[Special:Contributions/213.114.155.23|213.114.155.23]] ([[User talk:213.114.155.23|talk]]) 17:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

: No. Sorry. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 17:50, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

== Talkback: Nils von Barth ==

{{Talkback|User_talk:Nbarth#Deprecated_parameters}}

== Masood Ahmed ==

Ha! Big thanks for filling out that reference. I wrote it offline and didn't realise I hadn't done it properly. I'm so forgetful :) <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|AnemoneProjectors]] <small>([[User talk:AnemoneProjectors|talk]])</small></span> 15:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

: You're welcome. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 15:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

== Catherine Asaro ==

I am always happy to accept reversions on good faith when people are courteous enough to inform me. However I am intrigued:
:*Could you elaborate on why her date of birth is not included?
:*Which redirect is aimed at the section I moved?
[[User:Green Giant|Green Giant]] ([[User talk:Green Giant|talk]]) 19:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

: To answer your second question first (because I know the answer by heart). That is the target of the merged [[Saga of the Skolian Empire]]. Which, as you surely agree with me, is the magnum opus of Catherine Asaro. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 19:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

: See [[Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Privacy_of_personal_information]], which specifically mentions dates of birth. I seem to remember that Catherine Asaro removed her birthdate herself (as an IP user). A year should be fine though. If you can source it. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 19:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

== FYI ==

I have [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_December_11#Category:Creators_and_founders_of_sports_and_sporting_institutions responded to your CfD query]. — <b><span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]</span></b> &#91;[[User talk:SMcCandlish|talk]]&#93; &#91;[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|cont]]&#93;  <b>‹(-¿-)›</b> 19:19, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

: So I have voted to support this nomination. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 19:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

== Skolian Empire ==

A timeline is a useful crib for the casual reader of such a sprawling series, but there seem to be 2 problems. 1)Just reproducing the published timeline from the book looks like copyright infringement. 2)Somehow independently creating a timeline would be attacked as original research. Examples of how to handle it might come from the Harry Potter series or the Robert Heinlein "[[Future History]]." The actual timeline listing by Heinlein is not reproduced as such, but there is a listing of the stories in "story world" chronology with the approximate years they take place. In [[Harry Potter universe]] there does not appear to be a timeline, althoiugh in the past I believe there were disputes about including hypothetical timelines of when Dumbledore was born, when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts, etc, based on inferences and calculations from dates and ages given in the books, or from interviewws given by Rowling.  Now the article just says the events take place between 1991 and 1998. [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 19:47, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

== Saga of the Skolian Empire articles saved at Wikia ==

Wikipedia has a sister project called Wikia.  If you go to the adoption request at http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Adoption you can create a Wikia for the Saga of Skolian Empire.  They grant any request, you just having to wait a day or two for someone to approve you.  You can then enter every Wikipedia article you want to copy over at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export and save it to your computer.  At your Wikia you click special places, then click import, and all of those pages, edit history and all, are uploaded.  Its very simple.  Once it exist, others will stop in and help with it from time to time, allowing it to grow. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 22:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

: I was aware of Wikia, from previous experience with [[Honorverse]] articles. I didn't know how it works, though. I'm afraid, I am too lazy to really make the effort. Perhaps somebody else can do that. There are even a few articles that were deleted back in July that can be undeleted temporarily for copying there. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 23:05, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

== Re Thank you ==

You are welcome. [[No worries]], '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 23:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

== Advice on navbox template ==

See below.
{{Cabinet of President Umaru Yar'Adua}}
{{O Obasanjo cabinet}}
I just did the Yar'Adua template, but I prefer the more compact format of the Obasanjo template.  The difficulty is that the Obasanjo template does not completely work.  It goes up to group20, then stops. I can't find documentation, but suspect that 20 groups is the maximum supported. Both sets have just over 20 entries. I suppose I could figure out a way to format a table that gets the best of both, but don't want to clutter up the content with mark-up that would be forbidding to a new editor. Any ideas or advice? [[User:Aymatth2|Aymatth2]] ([[User talk:Aymatth2|talk]]) 01:38, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

: Sorry, but I have no idea. Ask [[User:Davidgothberg]] or [[User:Rich Farmbrough]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 10:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

== [[User talk:Haroldsultan]] ==

Hi, this User has made some changes to the page about Tzniut and a number of other editors have been attacking him.  I'm concerned that, as a new editor, he may not know how to work his ideas into the article.  Do you know of a source, such as a liberal Orthodox interpretation, that would support the views he added?  Thanks.  --[[User:AFriedman|<span style="color:navy;"><b>AFriedman </b></span>]][[User talk:AFriedman|<span style="color:#303030;"><b>(talk)</b></span>]] 02:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

: I have added my opinion to the [[Talk:Tzniut#Why_finding_sources_that_verify_.28or_discredit.29_the_edits_made_by_User:Haroldsultan_is_a_mitzvah:_An_argument|talk page section]]. As to your question, I am an ''orthodox'' rabbi, and I think the issue is about the [[Halakha|halachic point of view]], so I do not see the relevance of liberal opinions, which, as you correctly call them, are only interpretations. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 10:36, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I've posted a response to you on [[Talk:Tzniut]].  --[[User:AFriedman|<span style="color:navy;"><b>AFriedman </b></span>]][[User talk:AFriedman|<span style="color:#303030;"><b>(talk)</b></span>]] 14:01, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:The Great Wikipedia Dramaout|The Great Wikipedia Dramaout]] ==
Hi! As you have expressed an interest in the initial [[Wikipedia:The Great Wikipedia Dramaout/1st|'''The Great Wikipedia Dramaout''']], you're being notified because we are currently planning another one in January! We hope to have an even greater level of participation this time around, and we need your help. If you're still interested please sign up now at [[Wikipedia:The Great Wikipedia Dramaout/2nd]]. Thanks, and Happy Holidays! [[User:JCbot|JCbot]] ([[User talk:JCbot|talk]]) 04:28, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

: Signed up. Thanks. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 10:38, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

== Shabbat mode ==

Spotted this at [[Wikipedia:Requested_moves#December_16.2C_2009]] and I wonder if it's malformed? Seems to be a proposal for no change! [[User:PamD|PamD]] ([[User talk:PamD|talk]]) 14:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

: Indeed. On the article's talk page you can see the correct version. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 15:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

== [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Spinningspark/Sandbox2&curid=20562504&diff=331795797&oldid=331146043 Your edit in my user space] ==

You do know what ''sandbox'' means don't you? [[User:Spinningspark|'''<span style="background:#FFF090;color:#00C000">Sp<span style="background:#FFF0A0;color:#80C000">in<span style="color:#C08000">ni</span></span><span style="color:#C00000">ng</span></span><span style="color:#2820F0">Spark</span>''']] 20:48, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
:{{tps}} Pages with incorrect protection templates get listed at [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with incorrect protection templates]], could be a little annoying if it gets full of tests. Deb was justified in removing the template. Kind regards, [[User:Spitfire|Spitfire]]<sup>[[User talk:Spitfire|Tally-ho!]]</sup> 20:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

: As per a discussion I can't seem to find just now, I wait at least 24 hours before I remove an incorrect protection template from a userpage sandbox. You hadn't edited [[User:Spinningspark/Sandbox2]] for 4 days when I came along. I was just working through [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with incorrect protection templates]]. I hope you understand me, and that you won't hold this against me. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 21:03, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

::No, I won't hold it against you, fair enough if it is cluttering up a maintenance list.  The talkback template, on the other hand is another matter, I intend to hate you forever for that. [[User:Spinningspark|'''<span style="background:#FFF090;color:#00C000">Sp<span style="background:#FFF0A0;color:#80C000">in<span style="color:#C08000">ni</span></span><span style="color:#C00000">ng</span></span><span style="color:#2820F0">Spark</span>''']] 21:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

== Am box template categories ==

Thanks for the note but I am unsure why [[:Category:Ambox templates]] hasn't been listed - there are 3 pages in 4 sub-categories and it looks like the lot could go. I'm fine with the comics ones going as they seem redundant now but we might as well tidy up the whole area at the same time, as they seem to be suffering from the same problems. ([[User:Emperor|Emperor]] ([[User talk:Emperor|talk]]) 20:02, 17 December 2009 (UTC))

: I'll look into it. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:04, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
:: {{Done}} [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser#top|talk]]) 20:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

:::Thanks - it stops things falling through the cracks. ([[User:Emperor|Emperor]] ([[User talk:Emperor|talk]]) 02:26, 18 December 2009 (UTC))