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== "[[:F angels]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
== When did Engels meet Marx ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=F_angels&redirect=no F angels]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 17#F angels}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Rusalkii|<span style="color:#259a83">Rusalkii</span>]] ([[User talk:Rusalkii|talk]]) 20:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


== Article is of poor quality ==
The article seems to give two different dates for Engels fist meeting Marx--first on his way to Manchester, in the offices of the Rheinische Zeitung, and then, later, in Paris. The latter is not explicit in saying "first" meeting, but seems to be a conclusion that could be drawn from "earlier correspondence," and "prior to meeting Marx." Although possibly not contradictory, the references are confusing.


i don't know what you all are doing, but please do better than this!!! [[Special:Contributions/2601:642:4100:5050:6315:6DEF:3E13:835A|2601:642:4100:5050:6315:6DEF:3E13:835A]] ([[User talk:2601:642:4100:5050:6315:6DEF:3E13:835A|talk]]) 12:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
[[User:Bgladish|Bgladish]] ([[User talk:Bgladish|talk]]) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)


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:What improvements would you like to suggest? By all means make a list here. Many thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
:Yes, I agree, that's less than perfectly clear. So the offices of ''[[Rheinische Zeitung]]'', where the two met in "late November 1842", was in [[Cologne]], yes? It might be much clearer if the article stated that instead of just saying "On his way to Manchester", which might even suggest it was somewhere in England. It looks like the phrase "Prior to meeting Marx, Engels had become established as a fully developed materialist and scientific socialist, independent of Marx's philosophical development." should be moved back to that meeting in Cologne. But we ought to check what is said on p.71 of P. N. Fedoseyev et al. However, somewhat contradicting that claim, the ''[[Rheinische Zeitung]]'' article says this (emphasis added): "[[Frederick Engels]], who first established close personal relations with Karl Marx in 1844, later affirmed that '''it was Marx's journalism at the ''Rheinische Zeitung'' which led him "from pure politics to economic relationships and so to socialism."''' (sourced to McLellan p.57). [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 20:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

== Feminist categories ==

{{yo|Martinevans123}} I'm having trouble understanding your edit summary. {{tq|the article does not currently seem to support it}} - do you mean the article does not support Engels' status as a feminist? If so why reinstate the categories? [[User:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist|talk]]) 18:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
:Ah. For some reason I thought you had added them. Please go ahead and remove. Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps I am subconsciously [[Electra complex|internally conflicted]]. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 18:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

== Irish ==

{{Quote|text=On the sands at Ramsgate there was a performing dwarf – a clown – who was surrounded by a crowd of small boys; he was dressed as a Brazilian general. Engels spoke to him in Portuguese, then in Spanish, but got no answer. At last the “general” spoke a word. “Ah"! called out Engels, “this Brazilian is an Irishman “'''And he addressed him in his own language.''' The poor wretch wept with joy when he heard him talk.|author=Paul Lafargue|title=Personal Recollections of Engels (1905)|source=<br/>[https://www.marxists.org/archive/lafargue/1905/08/engels.htm]}}

This seems fairly feeble support for the statement that…
<blockquote>Engels was … able to '''write and speak''' in languages including … Irish …</blockquote>

Being able to say hello is no guide to his ability to write in a language at all. —☸ <span style="font-variant: small-caps">[[User:Moilleadóir|Moilleadóir]]</span> [[User talk:Moilleadóir|☎]] 07:01, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

:Yes that seems rather weak support. Although the same source also says: "His wife, who was of Irish origin, and a warm patriot, was in close relation with the Irish, who were numerous in Manchester, and knew of their plans. Many Fenians sought refuge in her house, and among them the man who planned the rescue of the Irish prisoners from the prison van." He and [[Mary Burns]] in fact never married. But it seems likely he may have spoken Irish with her? All supposition if course. I'm also assuming Burns was an Irish-speaker. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 07:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
::p.s. quite a good little article on Engels and the Irish [http://www.theirishstory.com/2015/08/03/frederick-engels-and-ireland/#.W9Df8GhKjIU here], although it says nothing about his knowledge of the language. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:15, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
:However, looking to the de.wiki article [[de:Friedrich Engels|Friedrich Engels]], it says this (sources copied over in German):
::"Engels spoke twelve languages ​​actively and twenty passively, including ancient Greek, Old Norse, Arabic, Bulgarian, Danish, English, French, Frisian, Gothic, Irish, Italian, Latin, Dutch, Norwegian, Persian,<ref>Thou Sichen: Friedrich Engels’ Studium der persischen Sprache. In: Beiträge zur Marx-Engels-Forschung. Neue Folge 2014/15. Argument, Hamburg 2016. ISBN 978-3-86754-682-9, S. 67–74.</ref> Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Scottish, Swedish, Serbo-Croat, <ref>Friedehilde Krause: M''arginalien zu den serbischen Sprachstudien von Friedrich Engels''. In: Beiträge zur ''Marx-Engels-Forschung'' 20, Berlin 1986, S. 67–70.</ref> Spanish, Czech.<ref>Hans Peter Bleuel: ''Friedrich Engels&nbsp;– Bürger und Revolutionär.'' S.&nbsp;298.</ref><ref>Heinrich Gemkow (u.&nbsp;a.): ''Friedrich Engels.'' S.&nbsp;274.</ref>
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:So I think perhaps the entry here could be expanded somewhat? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:24, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
::The statement in the de.wiki article above is not entirely clear - I think "spoke" probably means "understood"? But were his 20 "passive" languages wholly different to his 12 "active"? It is curious that the list actually contains '''23'''. Also, his native tongue of German is not included. So that would make 24? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 11:41, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== How Engels met Mary Burns ==

"In Manchester, Engels met Mary Burns, a fierce young Irish woman with radical opinions who worked in the Engels factory."

But there [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-friedrich-engels-radical-lover-helped-him-father-socialism-21415560/ doesn't seem to be much consensus]? At any rate, at least may it seem less ''final'' that it's how they met.

From the Smithsonian article:
If Mary was not a factory girl, there were not too many other ways in which she could have made a living. She lacked the education to teach, and the only other respectable employment available was probably domestic service; an 1841 census does suggest that she and her younger sister, Lizzie, worked as servants for a while. A ”Mary Burn” of the right age and “born in this parish” is recorded in the household of a master painter named George Chadfield, and it may be, as Belinda Webb suggests, that Burns took this job because it offered accommodation. Her mother had died in 1835, and she and her sister had to come to terms with a stepmother when their father remarried a year later; perhaps there were pressing reasons for their leaving home. Certainly a career in domestic service would have taught Mary and Lizzie the skills they needed to keep house for Engels, which they did for many years beginning in 1843.

Not every historian of the period believes that Mary was in service, though. Webb, noting that Engels described taking frequent, lengthy walking tours of the city, argues that Mary would scarcely have had the time to act as his guide to Manchester had she labored as a factory hand or servant, and may instead have been a prostitute. Webb notes that Burns was said to have sold oranges at Manchester’s Hall of Science–and “orange selling” had long been a euphemism for involvement in the sex trade. Nell Gwyn, King Charles II’s “Protestant Whore,” famously hawked fruit at Drury Lane Theater, and the radical poet Georg Weerth–whom Mary knew, and who was one of Engels’ closest associates—penned some double entendre-laced lines in which he described a dark-eyed Irish strumpet named Mary who sold her “juicy fruits” to “bearded acquaintances” at the Liverpool docks.



(Mary initially being a prostitute appears more likely.)

[[User:CLML427|CLML427]] ([[User talk:CLML427|talk]]) 06:54, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

== Inconsistent spellings in article ==

The current article has inconsistent spellings with:
* both US and UK spellings, e.g. both 'labor' and 'labour';
* references to both ''Das Kapital'' and ''Capital''.

If the article is made consistent, which of the above should be selected?<br>Hsq7278 18:55, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

:As Engels lived for some of his life in England, I'd suggest that British English should be used. And I think ''[[Das Kapital]],'' as in the article name, is preferable. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 19:03, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

::Thanks for this. Have changed accordingly as this approach makes sense<br>Hsq7278 23:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:05, 21 October 2024

"F angels" listed at Redirects for discussion

[edit]

The redirect F angels has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 17 § F angels until a consensus is reached. Rusalkii (talk) 20:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article is of poor quality

[edit]

i don't know what you all are doing, but please do better than this!!! 2601:642:4100:5050:6315:6DEF:3E13:835A (talk) 12:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What improvements would you like to suggest? By all means make a list here. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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