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== Image date ==

The photo of Engels which is dated 1840, is this correct? The file page of the photo seems to contradict this, and I don't know much about photography at the time but 1840 seems awfully early for a photographic portrait. [[User:Lizard the Wizard|<font color="#008000">Lizard</font>]] ([[User talk:Lizard the Wizard|talk]]) 18:01, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
:Yes, that looks quite doubtful. Is it possible that, for whatever reason, it has been given a misleading name? The source given is [https://davidnessle.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/friedrich-engels-varldens-basta-kompis/ here], the website of [[David Nessle]] and the text around it (in Swedish) gives no clue as to it's date. The explanation in the image file description, seems to suggest there may be two possible mentions in correspondence for a photograph which may be this one. And that the dates would be 1857 or 1859. The front of a book, the year 1929 and Moscow are also mentioned, but I can't quite make out what is meant. The image also appears on the cover of [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sV7-AQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false this book] by W. O. Henderson, first published in 1976, and I suspect it's also used on the frontispiece as the list of Illustrations lists it as "Friedrich Engels at the age of 25, 1845, by courtesy of the Radio Times Hulton Picture Library". The uploader [[User:DieBuche]] seems to be still active, so maybe he will see this and come over to explain a bit more. To me Engels looks more like age 37 or 39, than 20, in this photo. And yes 1840 is an early date for photography in general. In the meantime I'll boldly adjust the caption to what I think '''may be''' closer to the possible likely provenance. To add further confusion, the referece given in the caption here s to [https://www.worldcat.org/title/marxs-general-the-revolutionary-life-of-friedrich-engels/oclc/263983621 this book] by [[Tristram Hunt]], but I don't know if the image appears in the book or what the caption is there. The online sample text has no pictures. If that book gives a real date, then maybe [[User:DieBuche]] may have to amend his file description. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 19:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
:: To chip in, I was admin at commons and prbably only transfered or zploaded it, I cannot provide any info on the date. Would be intersting to see if that book refers to the same photo. --[[User:DieBuche|DieBuche]] ([[User talk:DieBuche|talk]]) 08:54, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
::: Ah, I see. Sorry to drag you over here. Thanks for clarifying, DieBuche. I'll leave the caption as is for now. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 09:07, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
::::[http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-friedrich-engels-1845-portrait-of-the-communist-philosopher-and-patron-9616712.html This source] seems quite clear? The date was 1845. But it has "Copyright: © Lordprice Collection / Alamy Stock Photo", alas. There's also a remarkably similar one used by BBC [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30375063 here] but which has "Getty Images" on it. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 14:33, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
:::::So the copyright situation is unclear - is it Hulton Picture Library? is it Lordprice Collection? is it Getty Images? Is suspect the latter, as [[Hulton Press Library]] was was bought by Getty Images for £8.6 million in 1996. So before the image gets deleted, I'll update the caption to 1845. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 19:25, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
:::::: Regarding the comment above, "the referece given in the caption here s to this book by Tristram Hunt, but I don't know if the image appears in the book or what the caption is there"—this was already explained in my talk page comment of 27 March 2015 ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Friedrich_Engels&diff=653696132&oldid=651340474 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Friedrich_Engels&diff=653696132&oldid=651340474]), that Hunt 2009 dates the photo as '''1840'''. Too bad someone set up a robot to archive comments too quickly. But this is Wikipedia, where it's better to prematurely hide and lose information and have [[Chinese whispers]] than just allow talk threads to stand. And yet a comment from 2005 still stands at the top of this page as I write this? [[User:Karmanatory|Karmanatory]] ([[User talk:Karmanatory|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
::::::: And by the way, any claim by any present-day organization like Getty Images that they own a [[copyright]] on this photograph has got to be pure bullshit. I challenge anyone to even irrefutably identify the name of the person who took the photo, let alone identify the chain of generations of people who may have bought or inherited that copyright in the '''circa 180 years''' since then. Is any copyright from '''circa 180 years ago''' even legally enforceable at all anymore? I doubt it. Prove me wrong. Notwithstanding that such outdated property, if still legally protected after 180 years, would be theft of historical heritage of the commons by this point anyway. So regarding "is it Hulton Picture Library? is it Lordprice Collection? is it Getty Images?"—it's [[Chinese whispers]], is what it is. [[User:Karmanatory|Karmanatory]] ([[User talk:Karmanatory|talk]]) 04:12, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

== German? ==

Encyclopedia Britannica titles him "Friedrich Engels GERMAN PHILOSOPHER". I think many other encyclopedias do likewise. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:54, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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:Note: all work, although last one requires log-in/subscription. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:13, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

== missing racism sections both here and for Marx ==

Why is there no mention of what racists both Marx and Engels were? Anti-black, anti-Mexican, anti-semitic, for starters. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.65.215.149|74.65.215.149]] ([[User talk:74.65.215.149#top|talk]]) 00:56, 10 June 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Engels in Brighton 1877 ==

My sources are Κарл Μаркс Фридрих Энгельс. Собрание фотографий. Moskow 1976, pp. 261-264; Boris Rudjak: Die Photographien von Friedrich Engels Marx im Zentralen Parteiarchiv des Instituts für Marxismus-Leninismus beim ZK der KPdSU. In Marx-Engels-Jahrbuch 4, Berlin 1981, p. 436. TRegards --[[User:WhoisWhoME|WhoisWhoME]] ([[User talk:WhoisWhoME|talk]]) 12:45, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:See [https://search.socialhistory.org/Record/615611 IISG Amsterdam]. --[[User:WhoisWhoME|WhoisWhoME]] ([[User talk:WhoisWhoME|talk]]) 12:54, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks. This may be a book that's difficult to find outside Russia? Do you know if it's ever been published, perhaps in translation, in English? I have no reason to doubt your sources, but you might want to make these details clear at the page for the source image at Commons i.e. correct the details which are inaccurate over there. Otherwise there will be a conflict and another editor might easily come along and revert your caption like I did. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:07, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::: I own this books. The russian book is print in English, French and German too. Amsterdam own 2/3 of the Marx-Engels handwriting and many photos. Regards --[[User:WhoisWhoME|WhoisWhoME]] ([[User talk:WhoisWhoME|talk]]) 13:39, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::::I am very glad for you. Thanks for the info. But, if that book can be relied on, we still need to update the date and location at the Commons image source page. Thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:44, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
: Done --[[User:WhoisWhoME|WhoisWhoME]] ([[User talk:WhoisWhoME|talk]]) 16:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::Sorry. You did what? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 18:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::: [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Engels.jpg here]. Regards --[[User:WhoisWhoME|WhoisWhoME]] ([[User talk:WhoisWhoME|talk]]) 05:51, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Um, that's a totally different image? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 08:01, 26 July 2017 (UTC)


==The Condition of the Working Class in England==
Article first says
The book was published in English in 1887.
and then says
In late May 1845 Engels published the English version of his new book.
Can both statements be true ?! [[User:TGcoa|TGcoa]] ([[User talk:TGcoa|talk]]) 13:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:It was first publised, in German, in late May 1845. I have corrected the text. Thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:17, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

== Anglicised version of his name? ==

A number of sources (including some referenced in the article) Anglicise Engels' first name as '''Frederick''', rather than '''Friedrich'''. Should this be included in the lede, or included in a note as on the [[Mao Zedong]] article? [[User:Kujilia|Kujilia]] ([[User talk:Kujilia|talk]]) 13:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
:I think those sources, even if we quite them, are misguided. His name was Friedrich. I also think the situation with [[Mao Zedong]] is somewhat different. But happy to go with consensus. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:20, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
::Perhaps Mao was not the greatest comparison to make. I see where you're coming from. I just find it curious that websites such as the [[Marxist Internet Archive]] and other publications which aren't (a) antiquated or (b) unknowing about who Engels was still use the anglicised version. I have no strong feelings either way; I'm just curious as to what Wikipedia editors think of this. [[User:Kujilia|Kujilia]] ([[User talk:Kujilia|talk]]) 13:39, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

== When did Engels meet Marx ==

The article seems to give two different dates for Engels fist meeting Marx--first on his way to Manchester, in the offices of the Rheinische Zeitung, and then, later, in Paris. The latter is not explicit in saying "first" meeting, but seems to be a conclusion that could be drawn from "earlier correspondence," and "prior to meeting Marx." Although possibly not contradictory, the references are confusing.

[[User:Bgladish|Bgladish]] ([[User talk:Bgladish|talk]]) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

:Yes, I agree, that's less than perfectly clear. So the offices of ''[[Rheinische Zeitung]]'', where the two met in "late November 1842", was in [[Cologne]], yes? It might be much clearer if the article stated that instead of just saying "On his way to Manchester", which might even suggest it was somewhere in England. It looks like the phrase "Prior to meeting Marx, Engels had become established as a fully developed materialist and scientific socialist, independent of Marx's philosophical development." should be moved back to that meeting in Cologne. But we ought to check what is said on p.71 of P. N. Fedoseyev et al. However, somewhat contradicting that claim, the ''[[Rheinische Zeitung]]'' article says this (emphasis added): "[[Frederick Engels]], who first established close personal relations with Karl Marx in 1844, later affirmed that '''it was Marx's journalism at the ''Rheinische Zeitung'' which led him "from pure politics to economic relationships and so to socialism."''' (sourced to McLellan p.57). [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 20:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

== Feminist categories ==

{{yo|Martinevans123}} I'm having trouble understanding your edit summary. {{tq|the article does not currently seem to support it}} - do you mean the article does not support Engels' status as a feminist? If so why reinstate the categories? [[User:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist|talk]]) 18:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
:Ah. For some reason I thought you had added them. Please go ahead and remove. Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps I am subconsciously [[Electra complex|internally conflicted]]. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 18:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

== Irish ==

{{Quote|text=On the sands at Ramsgate there was a performing dwarf – a clown – who was surrounded by a crowd of small boys; he was dressed as a Brazilian general. Engels spoke to him in Portuguese, then in Spanish, but got no answer. At last the “general” spoke a word. “Ah"! called out Engels, “this Brazilian is an Irishman “'''And he addressed him in his own language.''' The poor wretch wept with joy when he heard him talk.|author=Paul Lafargue|title=Personal Recollections of Engels (1905)|source=<br/>[https://www.marxists.org/archive/lafargue/1905/08/engels.htm]}}

This seems fairly feeble support for the statement that…
<blockquote>Engels was … able to '''write and speak''' in languages including … Irish …</blockquote>

Being able to say hello is no guide to his ability to write in a language at all. —☸ <span style="font-variant: small-caps">[[User:Moilleadóir|Moilleadóir]]</span> [[User talk:Moilleadóir|☎]] 07:01, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

:Yes that seems rather weak support. Although the same source also says: "His wife, who was of Irish origin, and a warm patriot, was in close relation with the Irish, who were numerous in Manchester, and knew of their plans. Many Fenians sought refuge in her house, and among them the man who planned the rescue of the Irish prisoners from the prison van." He and [[Mary Burns]] in fact never married. But it seems likely he may have spoken Irish with her? All supposition if course. I'm also assuming Burns was an Irish-speaker. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 07:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
::p.s. quite a good little article on Engels and the Irish [http://www.theirishstory.com/2015/08/03/frederick-engels-and-ireland/#.W9Df8GhKjIU here], although it says nothing about his knowledge of the language. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:15, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
:However, looking to the de.wiki article [[de:Friedrich Engels|Friedrich Engels]], it says this (sources copied over in German):
::"Engels spoke twelve languages ​​actively and twenty passively, including ancient Greek, Old Norse, Arabic, Bulgarian, Danish, English, French, Frisian, Gothic, Irish, Italian, Latin, Dutch, Norwegian, Persian,<ref>Thou Sichen: Friedrich Engels’ Studium der persischen Sprache. In: Beiträge zur Marx-Engels-Forschung. Neue Folge 2014/15. Argument, Hamburg 2016. ISBN 978-3-86754-682-9, S. 67–74.</ref> Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Scottish, Swedish, Serbo-Croat, <ref>Friedehilde Krause: M''arginalien zu den serbischen Sprachstudien von Friedrich Engels''. In: Beiträge zur ''Marx-Engels-Forschung'' 20, Berlin 1986, S. 67–70.</ref> Spanish, Czech.<ref>Hans Peter Bleuel: ''Friedrich Engels&nbsp;– Bürger und Revolutionär.'' S.&nbsp;298.</ref><ref>Heinrich Gemkow (u.&nbsp;a.): ''Friedrich Engels.'' S.&nbsp;274.</ref>
:So I think perhaps the entry here could be expanded somewhat? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:24, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
::The statement in the de.wiki article above is not entirely clear - I think "spoke" probably means "understood"? But were his 20 "passive" languages wholly different to his 12 "active"? It is curious that the list actually contains '''23'''. Also, his native tongue of German is not included. So that would make 24? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 11:41, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== How Engels met Mary Burns ==

"In Manchester, Engels met Mary Burns, a fierce young Irish woman with radical opinions who worked in the Engels factory."

But there [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-friedrich-engels-radical-lover-helped-him-father-socialism-21415560/ doesn't seem to be much consensus]? At any rate, at least may it seem less ''final'' that it's how they met.

From the Smithsonian article:
If Mary was not a factory girl, there were not too many other ways in which she could have made a living. She lacked the education to teach, and the only other respectable employment available was probably domestic service; an 1841 census does suggest that she and her younger sister, Lizzie, worked as servants for a while. A ”Mary Burn” of the right age and “born in this parish” is recorded in the household of a master painter named George Chadfield, and it may be, as Belinda Webb suggests, that Burns took this job because it offered accommodation. Her mother had died in 1835, and she and her sister had to come to terms with a stepmother when their father remarried a year later; perhaps there were pressing reasons for their leaving home. Certainly a career in domestic service would have taught Mary and Lizzie the skills they needed to keep house for Engels, which they did for many years beginning in 1843.

Not every historian of the period believes that Mary was in service, though. Webb, noting that Engels described taking frequent, lengthy walking tours of the city, argues that Mary would scarcely have had the time to act as his guide to Manchester had she labored as a factory hand or servant, and may instead have been a prostitute. Webb notes that Burns was said to have sold oranges at Manchester’s Hall of Science–and “orange selling” had long been a euphemism for involvement in the sex trade. Nell Gwyn, King Charles II’s “Protestant Whore,” famously hawked fruit at Drury Lane Theater, and the radical poet Georg Weerth–whom Mary knew, and who was one of Engels’ closest associates—penned some double entendre-laced lines in which he described a dark-eyed Irish strumpet named Mary who sold her “juicy fruits” to “bearded acquaintances” at the Liverpool docks.



(Mary initially being a prostitute appears more likely.)

[[User:CLML427|CLML427]] ([[User talk:CLML427|talk]]) 06:54, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

== Inconsistent spellings in article ==


== "[[:F angels]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
The current article has inconsistent spellings with:
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
* both US and UK spellings, e.g. both 'labor' and 'labour';
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=F_angels&redirect=no F angels]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 17#F angels}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Rusalkii|<span style="color:#259a83">Rusalkii</span>]] ([[User talk:Rusalkii|talk]]) 20:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
* references to both ''Das Kapital'' and ''Capital''.


== Article is of poor quality ==
If the article is made consistent, which of the above should be selected?<br>Hsq7278 18:55, 17 November 2019 (UTC)


i don't know what you all are doing, but please do better than this!!! [[Special:Contributions/2601:642:4100:5050:6315:6DEF:3E13:835A|2601:642:4100:5050:6315:6DEF:3E13:835A]] ([[User talk:2601:642:4100:5050:6315:6DEF:3E13:835A|talk]]) 12:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
:As Engels lived for some of his life in England, I'd suggest that British English should be used. And I think ''[[Das Kapital]],'' as in the article name, is preferable. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 19:03, 17 November 2019 (UTC)


:What improvements would you like to suggest? By all means make a list here. Many thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks for this. Have changed accordingly as this approach makes sense<br>Hsq7278 23:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:05, 21 October 2024

"F angels" listed at Redirects for discussion

[edit]

The redirect F angels has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 17 § F angels until a consensus is reached. Rusalkii (talk) 20:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article is of poor quality

[edit]

i don't know what you all are doing, but please do better than this!!! 2601:642:4100:5050:6315:6DEF:3E13:835A (talk) 12:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What improvements would you like to suggest? By all means make a list here. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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