Talk:Flags of the Ottoman Empire

post-1844

Whats wrong with the post-1844 flag? All references I could find refer to the post-1844 as only official standard flag of the Ottomans. I haven't seen the flag depicted in the poor quality image at the top of this article in any references. --Yodakii 16:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

In reality there was no A flag.

All the western referances that talk about the Ottoman Flag is incomplete. During Tanzimat, with the influence of western powers, they tried to reach a form of unity in a state that is as structured as a fractal image. Ottoman state was designed against a single concept to compansate the differences. Their millet notion is a good symbolism to cover this concept. The reflection of this multiple image was reflected to their flags, not to a single flag. By the way for the thinking minds, the current meaning of flag do not translate one to one to ottoman empire use of the word (literrally). For the flag under the ottoman page, we refer to Turkey's presidential insignia, as a source. That shape is accepted as the official flag of Ottomans, by the Republic of Turkeys presidental law. Other western sources, some I have chance to read, shows a general bais towards Muslim Ottomans, which the word by itself acts as an barrier to their credibility, if you know what I mean. I hope this explanation is good enough.

Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying there never was an official Ottoman flag? And that the Turkish government recognises the current flag as the official Ottoman flag?
How is the current flag better than the more recognisable one? Can you point to any sources for that image?
If there was no official flag, then what is the most commonly used state flag? What is the most widely recognised Ottoman flag? --Yodakii 18:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

U are thinking with 20th century terminology. That does not mean more advance, just it means our time. There was no nation for ottomans, to come up a national flag. I do not know how much else I can help to u with this. All the falgs (not a single flag) defined the nation (their devleti aliye). I advise you to watch the Ottoman Mehter Takimi, that will give you a visual clue about their conept, if you can get it! :-). There is a link at the page to insignia law which is the highest referance I can give to you on the internet. Rest is on your shoulders. ps:The recognizable flag you are talking has the star cutting the outer peripher of the moon, that is REPUBLIC OF TURKEY's flag. Just to remind you, again for the importance of the visual clues... By the way this is a comman mistake, even among the most respectful western source. The logic goes like this I guess; If it is not your flag, they all look the same. --tommiks 18:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

So there is no one official flag? In that case, what makes the flag currently in the introduction any better? --Yodakii 03:39, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, mention any references you know of in References section. --Yodakii 05:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The Kızıl Tuğ(The red flag) was the only thing that we can consider as a "flag" at the Ottoman Empire until the modern flag of the empire was designed in the last times of the empire. All old Turkish states used the Kızıl Tuğ(Mongol Empire and Golden Horde also used it even if they weren't Turkish states, Mongols are the Turan brothers of Turks). It was the most important figure(as well as grey wolf) in the Turkish history. With respect, Deliogul 22:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"Standard" Ottoman flag?

I'd like to point out that there was no standard regarding the shape of the crescent until the turn of the 20th century or so (Ottomans lacking flag standards? I'm shocked! Shocked and appalled I tell you! lol!) however the only one that ever WAS standardized is what is now the flag of the Republic of Turkey. I really don't see the point in using a flag from the days of no standards when the modern Turkish flag WAS USED from 1844 on.

The reason you see a lot of "banana crescents" in flag books is it is harder to make a proper crescent out of crappy material (not every Ottoman war galley is going to be able to afford a silk flag like the sultan) but that crescent should really be rounder.

I really wish I could get a firm confirmation on how the golden crescents were placed on the green disc during the Ottoman Caliphate era (1520s - 1844) though I'm getting the grim suspicion that there was no standard there either...

Ancient Greek origin of Star and crescent

Someone keeps trying to delete entries about the ancient Greek origin of the star and crescent. There is no reason for the romantic myth abotu the battle of kosovo to be contained within the first paragraph without mentioning the factual origin of the symbol. nationalism, especially when it comes to straight out lies cannot be accepted on wikipedia

The flag has a complex origin. The color red is a prominent color in Turkish history. The crescent and star, however comes from an an ancient Greek symbol of Byzantium (now Istanbul). Upon capturing the city in 1453 the Turks found many flags with stars and crescents and adopted this symbol as a good omen. while it is now used as an Islamic symbol, this is only because of the fact that the Turks adopted the ancient Greek symbol and then their infulence over the middle east meant that it came to be a symbol for Islam. There are also several myths regarding the adaptation is that the Turks had won a great victory with heavy losses in the Battle of Manzikert against the Byzantines in the year 1071, which led them to move into Anatolia. After the battle when the Sultan (The Khan at the time) walked through the battle field, there was a pool of blood formed between a group of Turkish soldiers, with the crescent moon and the star reflecting upon it. The Sultan adopted this reflection as the flag of Turks, however this view is one more of a romantic myth than any factual basis.

Well, the crescent as a symbol was also in use in the pre-Islamic Uygur-Turk kingdoms, e.g. usually artistic depictions portraying monarchs or religious dignitaries show a crescent whose both sharp ends point to the top. (Will try to find an example from the scource in my college library, think it was the 'Uygurica'...)

In ancient and contemporary non-Islamic Turkic and Lamaist Mongolian art crescents are to be found, too. Since Manichaeism was the the first state-religion to be introduced by a Uyghur-Turk ruler after shamanism, this might be the explanation for the spread of this symbol in Mongolia, East-Tukistan, even when Buddhism and other religions gained more importance, and eventually in the Ottoman empire. Manichaeism somehow acted as a bridge to the cultural sphere of the various Iranic empires and manifold cultures in Middle Eastern and Anatolian antiquity that influenced its neighbours and successors, including Greek and Persian cultures respectively. The crescent symbol, if I am not mistaken, goes back to the originally Phoenician goddess Ashtoreth and the Hellenic goddesses Selene and Phoebe... and that finally lead to this usage of the moon symbol in its crescent-shaped form throughout that region. Nevertheless since animism was the aboriginal belief system of the ancient Turks, Turkic and other similar - related or unrelated - peoples throughout East Central Asia and Siberia, that even shows parallels to Japanese Shintoism, it has to be taken into account that Sun and Moon deities (well, Stars, too..) were deeply inherent to these aboriginal cultures. So it could be mere chance that a crescent was used there as well. Even if you doubt that, the moon played an important role there too, and the crescent shape as symbol was already of relevance in the Manichaeist and Buddhist Uyghur kingdoms! So the Turks who appeared in Anatolia got it from them. Period. 134.100.1.121 09:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization

Shouldn't this page be at Ottoman flag instead of Ottoman Flag? —Khoikhoi 00:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

It should. Done. —Nightstallion (?) 12:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

1389 or 1453

These dates 1299-1453 and 1453-1789 not true. The simulation in the article proves that the Ottoman Flag comes from Kosova war whicn happened in 1389. As you can see these date 1453 is false. I change that. Ruzgar 19:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no proof of your assertion. On the one hand we have the overwhelming weight of evidence for the Ottoman Empire adopting the symbol after 1453, and on the other we have an anachronistic legend that isn't even referring to the correct flag (the flag they adopted in the 15th century didn't have a star on it).

There was no star on the Ottoman state flag until 1844.

I've added some comment over on the talk page for Flag of Turkey explaining why the 1389 theory is unlikely; the Battle of Kosovo happened on 15 June (Julian calendar), which is the 23rd June (Proleptic Gregorian Calendar) and this astronomical coincidence did happen on the 28th July - but that is over a month after the battle and the death of Murad I. The confusion of 28ths would point to this theory originating after 1900, since 15th June (Julian) is now 28th June (Gregorian). Given the factual innacuracies, this definitely needs a citation. Bazzargh (talk) 15:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The modern naval flag is not the same as the national flag

I wish people would stop replacing the Ottoman flag with the "correct" flag. It is not the correct flag, it is the naval flag. Look at it, and look at the naval flag. The 7 pointed star is for the navy, the 5 pointed star is for the state. --Ingoman 19:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

GA status

Here is the assessment according to the Good Article criteria:

1. It is well written

Need improvements

• The first paragraph starting with The early years are a time … is story-like prose which should be made more encyclopaedic. Another example of prose that needs improvement: this going all the way back to when.
• Run-on sentence. His son Orhan I saw himself differently, he saw…
• Sudden introduction of a subject without sufficient explanation: who bore the level of Roman legitimacy. Some additional explanations on “Roman legitimacy” is needed if this is related to the subject of the flag.
• Example of weasel words: It could be because, might just have been

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

Need improvements

• No sources are cited. The “Legends” section definitely needs citations.
• Example of bad prose that also needs a citation: Why red was the perfect colour to say this with, we shall never know.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

Weak pass – Coverage seems fine, but I am not sure why there are passages concerning the status of dhimmi (Jews and Christians). Is this related to the flag or the history of the Ottoman Empire?

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

Pass

5. It is stable

Pass

6. It contains images

Pass

In summary, the article should go through a copyedit and a better encyclopaedic tone should be adopted and then the references should be inline cited within the article. After making these changes, please resubmit the article for GA nomination. RelHistBuff 12:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Upon reviewing, I am under the impression that the most critical point is the referencing, as good copyeditors aren't as hard to find. From what I see, most of the text comes from the books cited in the end. What should be done is to retrieve the pages where the statements are made and stuff the article with inline citations, using the "cite book" template. From there GA is quasi-guaranteed.--SidiLemine 13:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Need THIRD OPINION

Wikipedia:Third opinion is the request an outside opinion in a dispute between two editors. This request is about which flag is approximates best to the flag shown during deceleration of Jihad at the WWI

The Republic of Turkey and Ottoman Empire flag are not strictly the same flags. The size of the moon and placement of star is different. Most importantly, they have two different tones of red. I have seen this argument brought by User:Lambiam, User:Res Gestæ Divi Augusti and User:Flavius Belisarius. I checked the images brought by all these users. The "red" in these images are not standard, but all of them have a darker red. One of the images (claimed to have the correct color) was paint-brushed over an historical back-white postcard. All these images have the "Crescent" centered in the flag. The "Five-pointed star" tends to be closer to the crescent. Lets look at the facts: There was a standardization of the Turkish flag in 1936. standardization of Turkish flag in 1936 This means that beginning with 1936, the flag of Republic of Turkey is uniquely different. I also look at the proposed Late_Ottoman_Flag_1844-1922.png. I do not see any difference between standardized Turkish flag and this proposal. Lets assume that we will never know what the Ottoman flag was. We know that Republic of Turkey's flag become different as of 1936. --Kemalist (talk) 22:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you are totally wrong.

Late Ottoman flag (1844-1922) based on historic documents such as:

http://www.turquie-memoire.com/jihad.jpg (photo from 1914: Declaration of Jihad for WWI - highly reliable)
http://www.osmanzengin.com/ESKi__iSTANBUL/kararkoy02.jpg (postcard photo from 1920 - artificially coloured in that epoch)
http://www.osmanzengin.com/ESKi__iSTANBUL/tepebasi.jpg (postcard photo from 1920 - artificially coloured in that epoch)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ottoman_Navy_at_the_Golden_Horn.jpg (postcard drawing from 1914 - arbitrary)

Note: The last flag of the Ottoman Empire (1844-1922) was practically identical to the present-day flag of the Republic of Turkey, except for the difference that the crescent and star were slightly "fatter" and "less sharp" on the edges.

In 1936 (!) only the geometric proportions were standardized and legalized. What flag (do you think) did the Republic of Turkey use between 1923 and 1936? A different flag? :) Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 12:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

If you "still" have any doubts, I suggest you to buy (or check out) the book "Ottoman Steam Navy: 1828-1923" by Langensiepen and Güleryüz at a bookstore (such as the marine bookstore on İstiklal Avenue in Istanbul, or a Barnes & Noble bookstore in New York.) That book has ZILLIONS of Ottoman Navy ship photos from the 19th and early 20th centuries that are carrying the present-day Turkish flag, which dates from 1844.

http://www.amazon.com/Ottoman-Steam-Navy-1828-1923/dp/1557506590

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AD045AY0L._SS500_.jpg

As for the "tone of red", there was no colour photograph in that period, so all "interpretations of red" on postcards are arbitrary; they do not necessarily represent the truth. The red on this postcard from 1920 matches the current tone of red, for instance: http://www.osmanzengin.com/ESKi__iSTANBUL/kararkoy02.jpg Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 12:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You are using "Current Turkish Flag" as Ottoman Empire Flag. And you copy "Turkish Flag" with different names and claim that they are Ottoman flag. I'm a Turkish veteran. I would be very disappointed if you are a citizen of my country. When A Turkish citizen can not recognize the ""unique"" symbol of its own state, the state becomes a "failed state". I wonder what happened to education system. Hope this table will help you understand. The table lists item by item the differences between these two flags. --Kemalist (talk) 14:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

	Flag Ottoman Empire	Republic of Turkey since 1936
Color	background is claimed many sources as color of blood (c30a17)	Pantone 186
shape of Moon	The radius is 0.5 G. Makes the moon half of the with which centers it along the with This is clear in this picture	The radius is 0.34875 G. Creates spaces at the top and bottom. Flag of North Cyprus filled the space with lines
placement of Moon	There is no unique space left for white band.	Distance between the center of the outer crescent and the seam of the white band is 1/2 G
shape of star	The Ottoman flag was different than christian "golden ratio." In layman's term it is a fat star This is clear in this jihad picture	The diameter 1/4 G, with the proportion 2:3 creates a mathematically Golden triangle (mathematics)
placement of star	centred (length and with) This is clear in this picture.	left of center.

image	Wrong with the picture. (contain a real flag)	Wrong with the claim. (represent a fact)
[1]	clearly brushed and colored with pastel tones and lost its originality. We can not even use for the shape, as we do not know the process of coloring deformed the image or not. The artist may easily "perfected" the image during the process. Besides the flags look like a drawing of a flag not a real flag.
[2] and [3] are same picture	The flag in the picture is not even a real flag of the ship. There is no originality of the "red colored drawing" over the postcard image of a ship. This is a drawing of a flag not a real flag.
postcard drawing from 1914 - arbitrary	This postcard is originally black and white. The flag or its color is added with the photo-shop it is clear from the smears (digital manipulation) around the flag. This is a drawing of a flag not a real flag.	This image can not be used for your claim "The red on this postcard from 1920 matches the current tone of red"
[4]	There are multiple flags which all have different shape than current flag of Republic of Turkey. This picture is a proof that current Turkish Flag is uniquely different.	This image falsifies your claim "identical to the present-day flag of the Republic of Turkey"

The best sample clearly shows that republic of Turkey's current falg is uniquely different. Kemalist (talk) 14:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

What I gave above are real life photos and not assumptions by Wikipedians based on arbitrary postcards. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 18:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, I didn't mention the "cover" of the book "Ottoman Steam Navy", I said go to a bookstore and look at the photos inside the book; there are zillions of Ottoman Navy ship photos with the present-day Turkish flag. Kitabın kapağından bahsetmiyorum, içindeki gerçek siyah-beyaz fotoğraflardan bahsediyorum. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 18:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The only "real life photo" is [5]. In this photo the shape of moon and star is very different. By just looking at this picture I can see that this flag is not the flag I served under. Do not name call people ( assumptions by Wikipedians.). It is rude. Don't be rude. Be civil. I gave you a page full of reasons why you are wrong. I gave you one by one explanation for each image. I do not understand why you continue to insist. The pho to you presented clearly shows different shapes, so different flags. --Kemalist (talk) 18:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's a larger version of the image from 1914: http://www.flickr.com/photos/inanc2/1360902178/sizes/o/in/photostream/ Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 18:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Can't you see that the star you present in this picture is not a Golden triangle (mathematics)? Turkish star is composed from Golden triangle (mathematics). --Kemalist (talk) 18:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

First click on the flag of Turkey then click on the Ottoman flag - I purposefully made the star and crescent "fatter" and "less sharp" so that they will be different. They are not the same. The star and crescent in the Flag of Turkey are thinner and sharper. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 18:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Please Answer this question in (Yes) or (No). Do you believe the "Ottoman Empire" and "Republic of Turkey" have the same flag which they are replaceable for one another?Kemalist (talk) 19:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Ottoman flag: The star is bigger in proportion to the crescent (compared with the flag of Turkey). Both the star and crescent are fatter and less sharp on the edges (click on the Ottoman flag, then immediately click on the Turkish flag to see the difference):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Late_Ottoman_Flag_1844-1922.png

Turkish flag: The star is smaller. Both the star and crescent are thinner and sharper on the edges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Turkey.svg

O "yamuk yumuk paçavrayı" Osmanlı bayrağı diye koyma. Ben de Kemalistim ama Osmanlı kökenimden utanmıyorum, onu "uzaylı" haline getirmiyorum. Türk bayrağı 1936 yılında birden bire ortaya çıkmadı. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 19:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Be civil. Using insult does not help your prove your point. The flag you claim to designed has the star with "golden ratio." That is Republic of Turkey's star. The current "Ottoman Flag" with the placement and size of moon and star is closer to the photo [6] than yours. Kemalist (talk) 19:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not insulting, please don't lie. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 19:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Translation in English of the Turkish sentence above: "Please don't add that "disproportionate piece of cloth" as the Ottoman flag. I am also a Kemalist but I'm not ashamed of my Ottoman past, nor am I trying to show the Ottomans as "from outer space". The Turkish flag didn't come out of nothing in 1936." Where's the insult? Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 19:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You are a shame for Kemalism (in English) Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 19:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to be patient as possible. No one will try to be responsive, as much as I have been. I have never heard anyone calling me "Sen Kemalizm için utançsın but you." Lets turn the discussion to the problem.

	The current Ottoman Flag	The Turkish Flag	Your proposal
Color	Blood red	Turkish flag color (Pantane 186)	yours closer too Pantane 186 to blood red
shape of Moon	It is a fat moon	Turkish moon is slim	Yours closer too slim
placement of moon	This flag ignores the white line and spaces the moon center of W	Turkish flag calculates white space and places the moon closer to left	Yours closer too left (w)
shape of star	The star is clearly a fat star	Turkish flag uses golden triangle	Yours closer too golden triangle
placement of star	This star is centered	Turkish flag is slightly left	Yours is closer to left

Your image does not approximate to Picture you have presented. The current one does a better job. --Kemalist (talk) 19:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

That's your personal opinion. Show me a single photo with a star that faces the crescent in that way. Not postcards, but real life photos. You can't. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 19:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's a real life photo from 1914: http://www.flickr.com/photos/inanc2/1360902178/sizes/o/in/photostream Show me a single real life photo with your version of the flag. You can't. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 19:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Bear in mind that the postcards in the Ottoman period were drawn by foreign artists who had no idea about how the star and crescent should face each other. Foreign artists and caricaturists still today make the same error when drawing the flag of the Republic of Turkey, even in respected magazines like The Economist, Time or Newsweek. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 19:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to be patient. No one will try to be responsive, as much as I have been. I have never heard anyone calling me "Sen Kemalizm için utançsın but only you." Lets turn the discussion to the problem.

I'm not in "sidik yarisi" with you. I'm here with "Good Will." You presented a photo, which shows Talaat Pasha, Seyhul Islam in front of flags declaring Jihad during World War One. Everyone I showed that picture claims that the moon and star in the current ottoman flag is closer to the photo you brought up. I did not create the current version of Ottoman flag. Do not say "it is your version." I'm just in supporting a position, which I believe as the correct position. You insulted me. You made me spend hours to show one by one where your assumptions are wrong. Sincerely there is nothing I can do more. If you like we can ask an Administrator to help us. --Kemalist (talk) 19:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)