Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Macedonia/main articles

This page is for discussion of the page titles of the principal pages relating to Macedonia. All letters on proposals were derived from proposals made during the first phase of the discussion.

Please endorse only one proposal, and leave a (preferably) short comment if you wish. Direct any discussion of other users' endorsements to the talk page.

Statement of question

• What title should be used for the article about the country constitutionally known as the Republic of Macedonia?

• What should the article named simply "Macedonia" be about?

Proposal A: "Macedonia" solution

• Macedonia is the article about the country
• Macedonia (disambiguation) is the disambiguation page

Rationale

• The country is the primary topic of the term "Macedonia" in current common usage in English, in the sense of the WP:DAB guideline, as established through investigation of English-language corpora outside Wikipedia.
• The country article has far more readers than any other Macedonia article (5 times more than Macedonia (ancient kingdom), 10 times more than Macedonia (Greece), 20 times more than Macedonia (region), and 3 times more than all the other related pages together) (see statistics)
• The intention of the "primary topic" rule of WP:DAB is not to express value judgments about the historical significance of an entity and its name, but purely a pragmatic intention of making things more efficient for the majority of readers. Therefore, reader expectations based on present-day discourse should be the guiding criterion. WP:DAB defines no concrete cutoff point of how much more common a usage needs to be to qualify as primary, but the country leads so strongly in both page views and web/corpus counts it would qualify under any reasonable criterion.
• This solution is patterned on Wikipedia's existing treatment of other countries that share their name with a wider or neighbouring geographical region of the same name, notably Luxembourg (disambiguation), Azerbaijan (disambiguation) and Mongolia (disambiguation) and has the advantage of consistency with existing nomenclature on Wikipedia.
• Published encyclopedias, dictionaries and other reference works predominately list the country as the primary meaning of the term "Macedonia". The majority of readers will expect the country article to be at that name.

Envisaged impact on readers

• This proposal leads fewer people through the disambiguation page. The majority of readers will immediately reach the article they were looking for. A minority will be one click away from their intended target article, and a yet smaller minority have to navigate back to the disambiguation page through the hat note (currently fewer than 10% of those who used the dab page earlier.)
• Page view statistics show that the move of the disambiguation page from Macedonia to Macedonia (disambiguation) has not adversely affected readership of the other Macedonia articles.

Compliance with Wikipedia policy

• Compliant with WP:NPOV's requirement to use "the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources".
• Compliant with WP:NCON's requirement to use the English version of the country's self-identifying name.
• Compliant with WP:DAB's requirement to use the term indicated as the primary topic for the title of the article on that topic.

Why is this better than the previous status?

• Improved navigation - eliminates an unnecessary detour through a disambiguation page for the great majority of people who look for "Macedonia".
• Consistent with nomenclature elsewhere on Wikipedia (country as primary topic, further meanings at disambiguation page).
• Consistent with external nomenclature, where the term "Macedonia" is overwhelmingly employed in common usage to refer to the country, and therefore the best match with readers' expectations about the meaning of the term.

Arguments against proposal A

• The country may not be the "primary topic" in all domains of English usage, especially not in older academic discourse.
• The country's status as one meaning of Macedonia and possibly a primary topic is only a very recent historical phenomenon.
• Choosing the country as the main topic may be perceived by some as choosing a side in the political naming dispute, in favour of the stance dominant in most English-speaking nations.
• The semantics of choosing the country as the main topic may be perceived by some as taking sides with one POV coming from the Republic of Macedonia[1]

Users who endorse Proposal A

• Although I can accept a compromise (C over B), this is my preference since it 1) is more solidly based on policy than any other option, 2) is more NPOV than any other option, and 3) represents the article destination for the majority of Wikipedia users, thus wasting less aggregate time. (Taivo (talk) 15:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC))
• Let's be clear - this is the only proposal that meets the requirements of WP:NPOV#Article naming, i.e. "use the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources". "Republic of Macedonia" is a formal name, not a common name, and the great majority of verifiable reliable sources (as surveyed here) do not use this name at all to refer to the country. NPOV sets clear criteria for country naming. If we set those criteria aside in order to "reduce tension", as one editor has put it, we would be abandoning NPOV and verifiability in order to appease disruptive nationalists. That approach ignores encyclopedic consistency, violates two of our most fundamental policies and is unlikely to "reduce tension" whatever happens - as the discussion on this page's talk page shows, the nationalists do not even accept the country's formal name. We would not even be having this discussion if it was not for nationalist objections to our standing approach to naming. This proposal is the only one that does what we are supposed to do - ignore the politics and follow NPOV. -- ChrisO (talk) 15:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposal B: "Republic of Macedonia" solution

• Republic of Macedonia is the article about the country.
• Macedonia is the disambiguation page

Rationale

• The country is not clearly the "primary topic" for plain "Macedonia", because in academic discourse, as documented in counts of Google Books and similar sources, referents other than the modern country (especially the ancient kingdom) have a comparably high prominence. Therefore the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC pattern should not be applied.
• If readers are taken straight to the country page from a wiki search on "Macedonia", some readers might not realize they are not on the most pertinent page, when the information they are really looking for might be more appropriately found at Macedonia (region) or Macedonia (ancient kingdom).
• Regarding the country article's title this convention is similar to Wikipedia's current treatment of such cases as:
  • Republic of Ireland rather than Ireland,
  • Federated States of Micronesia (common English name Micronesia[2]),
  • Republic of China (common English name Taiwan) and People's Republic of China (common English name China)
  • Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (rather than Nagorno-Karabakh).

  Other more loosely related examples exist [3].

• "Republic of Macedonia" is an acceptable disambiguator because it is also the self-identifying official (constitution) name.
• This proposal has some advantage over the other proposals in that it can be applied not only to the main article (dealing with the page title of the main country article), but also to other page titles (dealing with the page titles of various sub-articles), and in the text of other articles (how to refer to the country in normal article text in other articles, including articles of international organizations and Greece-related articles). A universal solution applied everywhere looks more neat. It is very easy to see why other proposals can not achieve this: Greece-related articles can not use Macedonia to refer to the country, because Greece has a region with the same name. (But could (in principle) use "Republic of Macedonia" without the possibility of confusion!) That excludes proposal A. "Category:Politics of Macedonia (country)" looks very odd, while "Category:Politics of the Republic of Macedonia" looks decent. That excludes proposal C. And so on. Other proposals simply don't fit the universality criterion (even in theory).

Envisaged impact on readers

• Readers using the wiki-search function on "Macedonia" will be led through the disambiguation page.
• Readership of the disambiguation page will be artificially inflated by its placement at the term used by most sources to refer to the country, as was the case before April 2009. However all readers would very quickly continue towards the article they want.
• The great majority of readers will need to take an extra step to reach the article with the greatest level of usage, i.e. the country article.

Compliance with Wikipedia policy

• Compliant with WP:DAB (use simple title for disambiguation page) and WP:PRECISION (prefer precisely specified names when ambiguity exists) under the premise that there is no clear "primary topic".
• Compliant with WP:NCON's criterion favouring the English version of the country's self-identifying (constitutional) name [4][5].
• Compliant with WP:DAB suggestion that "If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic"
• Compliant with suggestion of WP:Naming conventions (common names)#Do not overdo it that "if there is no agreement over whether a page title is "overdoing it", apply the guidelines at WP:PRECISION"

Why is this better than the status quo?

The title of the country article would be unambiguous. In no circumstance would any reader find himself directed to an article he didn't seek for. This version would be the least likely to raise objections. No one is likely to think of this solution as representing any POV on any matter.

Arguments against Proposal B

• Less efficient than A for the majority of readers using the wiki search function.
• Minor practical issue: every proposal except A (and E) will require substantial cleanup of a large number of incoming wikilinks pointing to plain Macedonia and meaning the country; that should be changed to the appropriate target rather than a disambiguation page. This pratical issue is labeled minor, because a bot can solve it; nevertheless a bot would have to be set up, so it is not zero-effort.
• The use of full formal names is generally deprecated by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), as they "require people to know that name, and to type more." Full formal names are generally only used on Wikipedia to distinguish sovereign states which share a geographical name with another state, namely the two Chinas, the two Congos, the (formerly) two Germanies. There is no other contemporary country called Macedonia.
• Reference works and cartographic works make very little use of "Republic of Macedonia". The formal name appears to have little common usage, making it likely that the term will be unfamiliar to the non-knowledgeable reader.
• Some of the examples with which this proposal is compared, e.g. to use Republic of Ireland, not Ireland, are considered by some as controversial, and in the case of Ireland a parallel wikidiscussion is going on.
• Violates WP:NPOV#Article naming's requirement to use the "common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources".

Users who endorse Proposal B

• —Nightstallion 10:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
• First preference. Per the general naming guidelines proposal A would be correct, but I am generally in favour of compromises that reduce tension. I believe this is such a compromise, and we are fortunate that this way of arriving at a compromise has been codified in the naming convention in WP:UCN#Do not overdo it. This proposal is analogous to the Nobel Prize in Economics, which redirects to Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences. Hans Adler 11:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
• First preference. It's what the Library of Congress does [6], representing a scholarly consensus, and an extra mouse click for readers is not burdensome. Novickas (talk) 13:19, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
• It makes sense to use the full name of the country for the page name especially that there are disambiguation issues otherwise man with one red shoe 13:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
• It seems an abvious choice to use the country's constitutional name for itself, and doing so ought to reduce tension on Wikipedia. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
• For the reasons stated by those who signed before me. Hiberniantears (talk) 14:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposal C: "Macedonia (country)" solution

• Macedonia (country) is the article about the country.
• Macedonia is the disambiguation page

Rationale

• Same rationale for putting the disambiguation page under the simple title as for [B]
• This solution reflects the practice that the most common naming to be used in article text elsewhere will be plain "Macedonia" and that the rest ("country") is just a disambiguation addition; the common way of linking to it will be through the pipe trick "[[Macedonia (country)|]]".
• This solution may be more stable than [B] in the hypothetical case that a political solution in the real world is reached, involving a change in the country's official name. In that case, "Republic of Macedonia" as the official name may become factually incorrect, while plain "Macedonia" may well continue to remain in use as the most common informal appellation at least for some time, until the new naming takes hold in practice.
• This solution is comparable to Georgia (country) with Georgia as a disambiguation page (though note that Georgia is the only country in the world for which Wikipedia uses a "(country)" disambiguator, although not the only country with an ambiguous name).

Envisaged impact on readers

• same as B

Compliance with Wikipedia policy

• some points shared with B.
• Compliant with WP:NPOV's requirement to use "the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources".
• Compliant with WP:NCON's requirement to use the English version of the country's self-identifying name.
• Compliant with WP:DAB's requirements that when there is no primary topic "the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no '(disambiguation)'".
• Compliant with WP:DAB suggestion that "If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic"

Why is this better than the status quo?"

• same as B and additionally
• focus of editors is directed to more productive issues than arguing about what is the primary topic for a topic that has such a complex state that it needs a Macedonia (terminology) article similar to the American (word) page.

Users who endorse Proposal C

• Used to prefer A, but I no longer expect a clear consensus for that. Still believe that the degree of "primacy" in usage is strong enough to justify A in principle, but I can't claim it's overwhelmingly strong enough to make A mandatory, so B/C is also acceptable. Slight preference for C over B, since it reflects more clearly that every addition beyond plain "M." is only for disambiguation, and "M." is otherwise the normal default name. It's also more likely to survive any future name change that might occur in the real world. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposal D: "Region" solution

• Macedonia to be the article about the wider geographical region, currently Macedonia (region)
• Macedonia (country) or Republic of Macedonia to be the article about the country
• Macedonia (disambiguation) to be the disambiguation page

This was the status quo before 23 September 2005.

Rationale

• This has been proposed mainly because of its perceived analogy to two other problematic naming cases: Ireland and China. In each of them, the simple page title currently leads to a geographical/historical survey article (Ireland = Ireland (island); China = China (historical region), Taiwan = Taiwan (island)), while the modern country of the same name is at a longer disambiguated title. The same solution is used for the less disputed Micronesia case.
• The geographical meaning of Macedonia, while not "primary" in the sense of quantity of page views, may be regarded as naturally "primary" in a logical sense, insofar as it is the historically prior meaning to both the country and the Greek province, and encompasses them both.
• Reflecting the practice of the Library of Congress that uses the label "Macedonia", alone, to cover the region (from antiquity to 1912) in its taxonomy preferences.
• Many reliable dictionaries list the region (or the ancient region) first, suggesting the region as primary topic - examples: Merriam Webster[7] and The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language[8]. However the ordering of the meanings might be irrelevant (reasons explained in rationale against A)

Compliance with Wikipedia policy

• Not compliant with WP:DAB. It would have been compliant if the region were in fact the primary meaning of the word in English.

Envisaged impact on readers

• Readers who want to read about the country (the most numerous group) will arrive at the region of the same name, of which the country is part. It is possible that some of the information they seek is in the Region article, the rest is one click forward.
• Same for readers looking for the other meanings.
• Readers are unlikely to perceive this as having reached the wrong article.

Why is this better than the status quo?

• No, or almost no users (as opposed to editors) would perceive that they had landed at the "wrong page." With proper hat notes, they could all be at the right place, or just one click away.
• No readers will go to the DAB page unless they direct themselves there.

Arguments against Proposal D

• Not compliant with WP:DAB -- "Macedonia region" is the least common (fourth place) meaning of "Macedonia", it comes after Republic of Macedonia, Macedonia (Greece) and Ancient Macedonia.
• Landing people on an article about the region is actually the least likely to give them the info they are looking for (because the main usage of "Macedonia" and because of observed page visiting patterns).
• "Macedonia" in its modern geographical sense is not an inherently salient and natural geographic unit (like the islands Ireland and Taiwan) but a highly arbitrary product of historical coincidences. As such, it is a relevant unit of geographical categorization only for a very short historical time period, roughly from the mid-19th to the mid-20th centuries.
• For a reader to navigate onwards to their real target page through a large article is less efficient than navigating onwards through a disambiguation page.

Proposal F: Use "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or "FYROM" for short

1. Use "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" as the name to refer to the country in all occasions.

Rationale

• This proposal expresses the only naming proposal that can exhibit the maximum degree of consistency throughout Wikipedia. Since plain "Macedonia" will be ambiguous in most occasions and "Republic of Macedonia" is not recognised by Greece, the EU, and almost all international organisations as a political entity.

This proposal would not need any qualifiers, in situations mentioned in the previous proposals, that lie on editors' choice.

Rationale against

• The use of formal names is generally deprecated (see WP:COMMONNAMES) except in circumstances where disambiguation is required. In most circumstances, plain "Macedonia" will refer unambiguously to the country; therefore no disambiguation will be needed.

Users who endorse Proposal E

ACCEPT All other proposals seek to steal the identity of Greek Macedonia and Macedonian history and are racist, politically motivated, violate Wikipedia's rules on accuracy and neutrality and is insulting to Greeks and academics who know that the only Macedonia is the province of Greece and the FYROM is the result of Titos bid to lay claim to Greek territory by renaming the Yugoslav province of Vardarska Banovinia with the name of the Greek province to which it has no historical or geographic connection to whatsoever. At no time in history did the Slavs of Vardarska Banovinia ever refer to themselves as Macedonians or the region in which they lived as Macedonians. Only the Greeks used the terms Macedonia and Macedonians to refer to themseselves and the land they inhabited in northern Greece and the term was never used to refer to a wider fixed geographic region. The term Macedonia only pertained to Greece and Greeks. The only acceptable way to refer to the entity know as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is the name by which it entered the United Nations, FYROM. This is the name by which it is recognised by all the international organisation it is a member over and the only name which stands to reason.--Odin5000 (talk) 15:51, 26 June 2009 (UTC)