Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Yugoslavia

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Yugoslavia Flag symbol I suggest that this flag-map with a plain Yugoslav tricolour be used. It is capable of representing the identity of Yugoslavia beyond that of the SFRY - which though a major part of Yugoslav history does not represent the identity of Yugoslavia as a whole. This user is a Yugoslav A plain Yugoslavian tricolour flag version of the Yugoslavian Merit of Barnstar. This should be available, especially for those who wish for a plain tricolour version and not a SFR Yugoslavian tricolour version. I am noticing a problem with NPOV with WikiProject Yugoslavia. It involves text in the intro and images used in the Project, I have made new images to address this that are presented here to show you, I hope they aren't too distracting from the text. The intro says that this is about the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that it shortens down in an internal link to "Yugoslavia". Plus, though I am aware that the SFRY flag was a prominent symbol of Yugoslavia before the SFRY collapsed in 1991-1992, it is not the exclusive symbol, plus the symbol with the communist red star may not be accepted by those who disagree or oppose communism, but still support Yugoslavia - there were definately such people like this in the history of Yugoslavia - ranging from moderate liberals to extremist anti-communists. Prior to the SFRY flag there was a plain Yugoslav tricolour used both by the state and earlier by Yugoslavists - it is the same flag as the Pan-Slavic flag, plus this plain tricolour was used by the partially-recognized rump Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and plain Yugoslav tricolours have been seen in protests since 2006 (when the last remnant of Yugoslavia - Serbia and Montenegro broke up and the flag was no longer used). I have created a new flag map that displays a plain Yugoslav tricolour on the map of Yugoslavia. I also created a new version for the Yugoslavian Merit Barnstar that has a Yugoslavian plain tricolour - I would prefer this version to be used instead of the SFR Yugoslavian one for the sake of it being less politically-charged, but nevertheless this plain tricolour version should be available to those who wish to have a plain version and not the SFRY version. I have also created a plain tricolour flag version of the Yugoslav user template - I chose the plain pan-Slavic tricolour flag because historically Yugoslavists saw Yugoslavia beyond its post-1945 borders - they saw Bulgarians as Yugoslavs, and Slavic Macedonians in Greece, so just per chance if a Bulgarian or Slavic Macedonian in Greece views themselves as a Yugoslav person, this template accounts for it without connecting the identity with the geographical territory of Yugoslavia from 1946 to 1991.--R-41 (talk) 18:06, 25 February 2012 (UTC) Let me start off by noting that "R-41" was a military plan of the royalist Yugoslav army. Obviously you're a Kingdom of Yugoslavia enthusiast, and that's fine. However, I preset the following objections to your "history lesson" up there. In general terms, the blue-white-red tricolour is the pan Slavic flag. However, when used to depict Yugoslavia, it represents the royalist Kingdom of Yugoslavia. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia article is full of sources explaining that royalist Yugoslavia (an authoritarian state at best, and a right-wing dictatorship at worst) was controlled by ethnic Serbs. This is often described as "Serbian hegemonism". The flag of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia is thus offensive to many non-Serbs. Even worse, and more recent, the plain tricolour is the flag of Serbia and Montenegro (or "FR Yugoslavia"), a state which recently waged bitter war against Croats, Bosniaks, and Slovenes. Once again: offensive to those peoples of Yugoslavia. Not only that, but Serbia and Montenegro is not part of this project, and the templates you propose to change with its flag are not used for it. Next, the territories of any of these three states are not the same. Template:Yugoslavia-stub, that you are trying to change, uses the flag of SFR Yugoslavia over the outline of the territory of SFR Yugoslavia. You apparently wish to push the royalist flag over SFR Yugoslavia :). Finally: that is the last flag of Yugoslavia. We shall use the last flag of Yugoslavia, not the second-to-last. Its communist, yes, and I don't like that, but its the only flag of Yugoslavia that is accepted as having represented all the nations of Yugoslavia. The flag is communist, that is true, but forcing the royalist flag is hardly any better. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia was no "liberal democracy", but an authoritarian, dictatorial regime, openly resented by vast chunks of its population. -- Director (talk) 20:19, 25 February 2012 (UTC) Direktor, I am not a Yugoslav nor a Yugoslav royalist! You're accuasation is groundless If you must know the embarassing details of why I named myself R-41, it is because I am a Star Wars nerd who still uses the user name I adopted on Wookiepedia - I named myself after a spacecraft in the TIE Fighter space-flight simulator game called the "R-41 Starchaser"! See here: [1] I am a Canadian person of English-Irish-Italian-French descent. I know Yugoslavs and I am deeply interested in Yugoslavia's history. That is shown in my talk page, your accusation of me being a "Kingdom of Yugoslavia" enthusiast is groundless personal attack aimed at discrediting what I am discussing here, and also I am a Canadian who sees monarchies as antiquated and useless. The flag was used by Yugoslavists and there were many, many Yugoslav republicans in interwar Yugoslavia who opposed the monarchy - unless DIRECTOR you can prove they all believed the plain tricolour as an exclusively royalist symbol, your claim is groundless. And even during Milosevic's days the flag was not just used by his supporters, but was used by people who OPPOSED Milosevic.--R-41 (talk) 20:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC) I'm not "accusing" you of anything, R-41. I did not say you were a royalist, who's a royalist nowadays anyway...? In fact, I'm a rather big Star Wars fan myself (though I think they really ruined the series with the prequels..). You have to admit, though - its an amazing coincidence with "R-41".. Anyway, cut the WP:SHOUTING please. In Serbia the flag was used by folks who are and aren't pro-Milosevich, that's not the point. Incidentally Milosevich was a socialist, and his strongest opposition were the nationalists, the radicals (from bad to worse, one might say). I'm talking about the flag's perception with Yugoslav non-Serbs. Its the flag of the country non-Serbs were engaged with in bitter war very recently. Can you show there is no resentment, because as a Croat, I can guarantee you there is (the fact that you're not from ex-Yu explains why you even demand evidence from such a thing). -- Director (talk) 20:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC) Here is a a Yugoslavia tricolour flag without the red star that uses a a symbol that contains the different religious symbols of the three major religions of Yugoslavia within it. This image file is used by at least one Yugoslav user. That's a fantasy flag. I do wish we had a non-communist flag of that sort, but we don't. -- Director (talk) 13:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Here is an example of a historical Iranian flag used for the WikiProject Iran template and for the WikiProject Iran user template, it uses a plain Iranian tricolour because it is less politically charged than the flag of the Islamic Republic and not all Iranian people support the theocratic state governing Iran. So you're saying Yugoslavs are stupid to feel the way they do? :) What does this have to do with Iran? We're talking about perceptions in Yugoslavia. -- Director (talk) 13:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC) The flag's perception by non-Serbs who still identify as Yugoslavs is not easily decipherable because the region is tainted by factional ethnic nationalism that oppose the concept of Yugoslavia itself - even the many staunch Serbian nationalists are opposed to the very idea of Yugoslavia, as limiting Serbian unity. But here is a plain tricolour flag-map used on a Yugoslavia-advocate website from Bosnia and Herzegovina: [2] and on the side of this page I've provided an example of a Yugoslav tricolour that is used by at least one Yugoslav user (it appears on multiple user pages but so far I see that it is used in that one user's signature) that is a Yugoslav tricolour flag without the red star - so Yugoslavs do accept a Yugoslav tricolour without the red star as a symbol. I can tell you that the flag adopted in 1992 was not designed by Milosevic himself - Milosevic's supporters used SR Serbian flag [3] and the SFR Yugoslav flag [4] prior to 1992 - and most likely if Yugoslavia had been changed into a federal multiparty democracy as Ante Markovic and others had planned, probably the very same plain Yugoslav tricolour would have been adopted. The same question could be asked about the SFRY flag, and I can tell you that I've seen a lot of pictures of Croats during the war burning the SFR Yugoslavia flag - so the population of Yugoslavia wasn't wholly pleased with that flag either. It is a historical image, yes, but it is very politically charged. The plain tricolour is not politically charged, besides the tricolour was and continued to be the main symbol of Yugoslavia throughout its history with and without the star. Bottom line the flag with the star has a far more clear distinct political-charged and specific isolated historical context. I don't see how the flag without the star - that is not politically charged - would be irrationally and suddenly viewed as a "symbol of evil" (aside from people with a very strong POV) any more than the SFRY flag - it's the same flag just without the star, and the SFRY flag was based upon the original plain tricolour flag. So keeping this in mind, according to Direktor, does this mean that Tito the League of Communists of Yugoslavia adopted the "offensive" "royalist" tricolour symbol behind the red star?-R-41 (talk) 20:59, 25 February 2012 (UTC) This discussion is really getting ridiculous. What can I tell you? That's not the last flag of Yugoslavia. That's the flag of the state Croats, Bosniaks, and Slovenes (i.e. half of Yugoslavia) were fighting against in a shooting war very recently, packed with ethnic hatred. Its also the flag of the dictatorship where Croats, Bosniaks, Slovenes, Macedonians, and Montenegrins were not even recognized as nations, and were actively repressed. I'm sorry you "can't understand" that using that flag of Yugoslavia would be offensive to those ethnic groups. But even if all of that were not so, I can't see any reason why we should use the old flag of Yugoslavia and not the latest flag. In short, in this context, that is not the "plain tricolour" - its the flag of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro. I wish that were not so, believe me. I'm not a communist or a socialist, but I do like the concept of a Yugoslav state - so I would be the first to prefer the non-communist symbols if they did not carry the message that they do. Its unfortunate that they have come to represent an ethnic Serb-dominated Yugoslav state. Those who find the SFRY flag offensive (the nationalists), would find the symbol of "Serb hegemony" just as, or even more, offensive. By the way, its hard to WP:AGF when you're WP:SHOUTING by bolding half your post, and posting misinformation. I changed the offensive title of the section. This project is NOT "only about the SFRY", and that's stated quite plainly. And for your information, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was also, for a goodly part of its existence, a single-party-regime, under the Yugoslav National Party. Which state was more oppressive is quite debatable indeed. -- Director (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Here is website that has an image of a plain Yugoslav tricolour badge used on uniforms of the Yugoslav Partisans that disproves your claims that the plain Yugoslav tricolour is exclusively a symbol of royalists, and thus legitimizes that the plain tricolour can be used to represent Yugoslavia from beginning to end, see here: [5]. As you can see on that image file, plain versions of the Croatian, Serbian/Montenegrin, and Slovenian tricolours were also used by the Partisans - so it is clearly representing a flag. So this shows that we can use the plain Yugoslav tricolour as a symbol here without worry about offense because the Yugoslav Partisans used the plain tricolour symbol as well.--R-41 (talk) 15:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Oh for heaven's sake... that was in 1943! We're discussing present-day implications. And we're not talking about badges, we're talking about the national flag - the Partisan version of which had a red star. -- Director (talk) 16:07, 26 February 2012 (UTC) I don't know... the only thing I can think of is that we invent some flag of our own. Maybe a Wikipedia "W" over the tricolour? -- Director (talk) 16:25, 26 February 2012 (UTC) By the way I bold when I want to point something out, I am not shouting. Remember we are talking about WikiProject Yugoslavia. The site it's on further more identifies it as the "tricolour flag ribbon".[6] WikiProject Iran's flag-map template is a historical flag that is less politically-charged than the current flag that is very politically-charged with the state's theocratic ideology. Bottom line: you said that the plain tricolour was a symbol of "royalists", I have found and shown to you that it is not a symbol of royalists. I don't care who used the plain tricolour - royalists, republicans, Yugoslav Partisans - I have demonstrated that it was used as a symbol by the Partisans, so you can't complain anymore that it is a royalist symbol. It is a less politically charged flag and can represent Yugoslavia from beginning to end.--R-41 (talk) 16:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC) The combined coat of arms on the first page of a fictional "Illyrian Empire" used by the Illyrian Movement, based on the one found in the Ohmućević Armorial.The divisions are labelled with letters as follows: (A) Macedonia, (B) Slavonia, (C) Bosnia (the star-and-crescent of "Illyria" is present in an inescutcheon in the Bosnian coat of arms), (D) Bulgaria, (E) Dalmatia, (F) Serbia, (G) Croatia, (H) Rascia, (I) "Primordia", with an added imperial double-headed eagle (labelled J) "the only thing I can think of is that we invent some flag of our own." - statement by Direktor (you) - I was thinking about something on similar lines but not the same. Out of my intest in heraldry and the history of Yugoslavia, out of curiosity I experimented and designed a concept of a Yugoslav coat of arms based on the old Fojnica Armorial used by the Yugoslavist Illyrian movement - I am thinking of either selling or voluntarily giving the design to the Nova Jugoslavia movement so that they can adopt it as a symbol - I could never fit in a Montenegrin symbol into it - but I cave a bit to a Serb friend's opinion that Montenegrins are ethnic and cultural kin of Serbs - they have the Serbian Orthodox Church - so the firesteels are used in Montenegrin society - or the golden lion could represent them perhaps - I used the Bulgarian/Macedonian golden lion on red background - original Yugoslavists claimed that Bulgarians were Yugoslavs. Bear in mind that I also drew the svg image of the coat of arms of the SFRY that I admire as visually impressive.---R-41 (talk) 16:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC) First it needs to be said that this would imply that the project is about the current countries of Yugoslavia, and not the historic state. I would not mind that, truly I wouldn't, but I think others might. That said, lets see how this will go. CoA. Your CoA is excellent, but I can see a few (potential) problems. I can't make out where Macedonia and Slovenia are. I suspect that the lower-left area is Slovene(?) but their symbol nowadays is the Triglav mountain, something they owe to the Slovene Partisans. The Macedonians I just can't find. Bosnia is where nations and states diverge somewhat. The symbol of the Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) is a fleur-de-lis. The blue coat of arms you're using is the coa of all of Bosnia (including Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats), and is strongly opposed by the other two Bosnian ethnic groups, which fought against it in the past war. If you want to represent the six states with the CoA, you should use the present Coat of Arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as the previous CoA is rather unacceptable to Bosnians that are not Bosniaks. If you want to represent the six nationalities (which is what I would do), I suggest simply using some symbol for the Bosniaks such as a single yellow fleur-de-lis on a blue background. Flag. We still don't have a flag though, do you have any proposals in that regard? Incidentally, a flag with seven horizontal stripes of red-blue-white-blue-red-white-blue covers the Serbian (red-blue-white), Slovene (white-blue-red), and Croatian (red-white-blue) tricolours. But still, we'd be missing the Bosniaks, Montenegrins, and Macedonians. -- Director (talk) 17:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC) The Macedonian symbol is the golden lion - its the same symbol as Bulgaria. I used some older symbols of Slovenia and Macedonia to make the symbol look heraldically grounded in their heraldic history - plus to avoid the Vergina Sun controversy of the present FRYOM flag. I made a composite of the flag that I am thinking of giving to the Nova Jugoslavia movement at least for their website, here it is on the left side. I still think a plain tricolour is an appropriate, apolitical, and recognizable symbol that can be used for the WikiProject, similar to the flag-map used on WikiProject Iran that uses a historical flag that appears apolitical.--R-41 (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2012 (UTC) The Macedonian symbol should be the sun, as it is now. The lion is controversial as its pro-Bulgarian and rather right-wing. It would be self-contradictory to have it on a Yugoslav flag or coa. Macedonia is a land between three (or even four) countries that would claim it as their own. Its politics are complicated. In a sentence, the symbol of Macedonia in Yugoslavia would be the sun. -- Director (talk) 17:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC) CoA. Revised problems/suggestions: The Slovene symbol, since WWII, is primarily the Triglav (see Slovene Partisans). The symbol of Macedonia in Yugoslavia would be the sun, since the lion emphasizes pro-Bulgarian (as opposed to pro-Yugoslav) sentiment. I suggest the proposed variants with the sun [7]. I can't find Montenegro? Bosnia is where nations and states diverge somewhat. The symbol of the Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) is a fleur-de-lis. The blue coat of arms you're using is the coa of all of Bosnia (including Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats), and is strongly opposed by the other two Bosnian ethnic groups, which fought against it in the past war. If you want to represent the six states with the CoA, you should use the present Coat of Arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as the previous CoA is rather unacceptable to Bosnians that are not Bosniaks. If you want to represent the six nationalities (which is what I would do), I suggest simply using some symbol for the Bosniaks such as a single yellow fleur-de-lis on a blue background. As an aesthetical suggestion, I propose doing away with the black borders between sections? Flag. To be honest, I just don't like the tricolour with such a complex coat of arms as the modification. And imo, if its not communist, it ought to be 3:2. Maybe we can think of something else? -- Director (talk) 17:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Don't buy the lie made by anti-Bosniak ethnic nationalists who opposed the Bosnian state that the Bosnian fleur-de-lys is an exclusively Bosniak a.k.a. Muslim-only symbol - the Bosnian fleur-de-lys symbol was adopted by a Catholic King Tvrtko I of the Kingdom of Bosnia, plus the Bosnian state of 1992 to 1995 had a number of Sarajevo Serbs in the multiethnic Bosnian Army. If anyone complains about the Bosnian symbol - I will be more than happy to point this out to them to show that that Bosnian symbol was used by non-Muslims. As for the 1:2 flag, Hungary uses a 1:2 flag, and many of the ex-Yugoslav states still do. I also think that it is difficult to see the coat of arms on the flag, that's why I'd prefer we use the plain Yugoslav tricolour flag symbol - as I have shown it has been used by all the governments of Yugoslavia (I include the Partisans as the beginning of the SFRY). As I said, I designed the symbol out of curiosity as a symbol of Yugoslavism. It's best to use the plain tricolour flag for the main symbol on this WikiProject, I'd be honoured if the coat of arms would be accepted here.--R-41 (talk) 17:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC) I am not "buying any lies", R-41, I'm very well familiar with my country's history. What you don't understand is that we're not so much discussing heraldry here, as a hypothetical symbol that just might be acceptable to people today. The "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina", RBiH (as opposed to the modern "Bosnia and Herzegovina"), was unfortunately de facto a Bosniak entity in a war against the entities of the other two nationalities. I'm not saying anything against the Bosniaks (hell no), I'm not suggesting that the RBiH wasn't legally the Bosnian state, and I am fully aware of the heraldic origin of its coa. What I am suggesting is that its simply opposed by many Croats and Serbs, in particular Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs. And can we please discuss point by point? -- Director (talk) 17:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Well the flag is representing the Yugoslav nationalities and not republics, and Bosniaks use the symbol still. The Bosnian fleur-de-lys shield is a beautiful symbol of Bosnia with non-ethnic origins, but that happens to be preferred by the Bosniaks - Izetbegovic authorized the flag as an appropriate non-ethnic flag even though he and his supporters used this flag: [8]. As I said, I would suspect that any Croat or Serb who would be frustrated with the symbol would either (1) be uninformed of its non-ethnic origins and this could be told to them, or (2) a bigot who hates Bosniaks. I suspect that people who would be outraged with the flag even after being told of its origins would be (2) - bigots, and I will not cater to bigots' views in my design.--R-41 (talk) 17:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Bosniaks don't use that symbol, they use a single fleur de lys. Which is my suggestion. The coat of arms of the Kingdom of Bosnia is simply unacceptable to the majority of Croats and Serbs, in particular Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs. The majority I speak of are not necessarily "bigots", but simply nationalists. But they wouldn't like it because using the symbol that has become synonymous with the Bosniaks to represent all of Bosnia and Herzegovina - would be favoring Bosniak nationalists. Its also not the symbol of the Bosniaks as a nation (because if it were, it would suggest that Bosniaks = Bosnians, which is also favoritism). I hope I'm conveying the complexity of the issue. Its not unused for no reason. Would you care to respond to my other concerns re the coa? (Let's at least try to get that out of the way.) P.s. See the File:Bosniak Coat of Arms.png. I would suggest using something like that, but with a blue background, and either no frame, or a white frame (instead of yellow). -- Director (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC) To summarize with regard to the CoA: There's the issue of the Bosnian/Bosniak symbol There's the fact that the Bulgarian lion really makes little sense on a Yugoslav Macedonian CoA The Slovenes use the threefold peaks of the Triglav (topped with the three stars of the Counts of Celje). And there's no Montenegrin symbol. I will say that I myself really would like it if we could agree on a version here. -- Director (talk) 18:38, 26 February 2012 (UTC) I have removed the prior version that was previously shown on the page so that the section is not completely littered with images. But here is the revised version with much of what you wanted. I am reluctant to use the modified Vergina Sun of the flag of Vardar Macedonia due to the Greek Aegean Macedonian vs. Slavic Vardar Macedonian dispute over the symbol - I don't want Greeks mad at me for using it, so I believe it is best to avoid it altogether and use the long-used golden lion used by Vardar Macedonia. I am thinking of adding some sort of modernist mural crown (similar but distinct from that used by Croatia) that will display the symbols of the two major ethnic minorities in Yugoslavia: the Albanians and the Hungarians - but I have to design it. But first let me know if this is acceptable now?--R-41 (talk) 23:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Now you see why the coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia has remained the way it was in the SFRY. The Vergina Sun is offensive to the Greeks, but the Bulgarian lion is pro-Bulgarian. Let me say again: you should under no circumstances use the Bulgarian lyon. 1) Outside of heraldry, it is officially not the symbol of the Republic of Macedonia; 2) it is a (pro-)Bulgarian symbol and has no place on a Yugoslav CoA. It is highly controversial in Macedonia and it is by no means universally accepted as the symbol thereof. It is presumptuous to use it. I recommend you use a sun symbol, which is exactly what Macedonia uses both in its flag and coa. Not necessarily the Vergina Sun, but a sun. You're a wiz, btw. Your work is excellent. I mean I can do Photoshop, but you're just a level beyond :). -- Director (talk) 23:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Here are a few aesthetic suggestions: How would it look without the black borders between the individual coats of arms (and on the outside)? With just the different colours marking the difference (there are also black borders within the Serbian cross). I'm not an expert on heraldry, but I suggest doing without the pointy end at the bottom of the CoA? Its kind of archaic. Have you considered modifying the shape to look more like the Serbian or Croatian coats of arms? The stylized shape and yellow border of the Montenegrin coat of arms seem rather out of place. A yellow/gold border is ok, I think, but perhaps the shape should correspond with the general shape of the coa. -- Director (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2012 (UTC) I tried to remove the black bordering, it is complicated to describe, but in order to make the symbol it required me to construct the shield in pieces, when I remove the borders it makes the image look very unusual - I can't tell you much more than that. I simply used the Montenegrin coat of arms from the Montenegrin flag. The Macedonian lion was actually one of the leading coat of arms in the contest to create a coat of arms for the Republic of Macedonia - yes it may be archaic - from what I've seenb a lot of Eastern European peoples like archaic symbols - they see them as connecting to the roots - such as the Russian flag used during the Tsar period, or the monarchy-appearing coat of arms of Hungary. Plus the Macedonian lion was used on the Fojnica Armorial - it has been a symbol of Vardar Macedonia far longer than the Sun symbol - and it is less internationally controversial than the Sun flag that is a modified version of the Vergina Sun flag - Greeks are still ticked off about the flag of the Republic of Macedonia - they see it as cultural theft of Greek Macedonian symbols - I am not going to make a position for or against that for purposes of not offending one side or the other, using the lion avoids the dispute entirely. Anyway, I have based the coat of arms on in design - and the point at the bottom is like the Fojnica Armorial shield.--R-41 (talk) 23:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Also, by the way, I am using the Macedonian lion that came in close in the contest for the new symbols of the Republic of Macedonia in 1992 (if I am not mistaken on the year) - this version of the Lion was designed by a Slavic Macedonian in contest for the new state's symbol and it was popular - so this version is not connected with the Bulgarian lion.--R-41 (talk) 23:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC) This is not about the Greeks, R-41 - this is about the Macedonians. You should use what they're using. Trust me, all political implications aside, using the lion is quite presumptuous indeed, as in "other people don't like your symbol, so I've decided that you shouldn't use it, and that its sensible for you to use this one". Imagine if the US decided Canada should change its coat of arms because it looks too much like, I don't know, the coat of arms of Maine or wherever. -- Director (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Please listen - this version of the Lion was designed by the same man who designed the later-adopted present-day version Republic of Macedonia flag - Miroslav Grčev - in contest for the new state's symbols and it was very popular - so this version is not connected with the Bulgarian lion and it is designed by the same man who designed the flag. I just do not want the just per change angry complaint from a Greek that I am submitting to accepting the Republic of Macedonia's flag. Bottom line, the same man designed both symbols - the lion has been used as a symbol of Vardar Macedonia for centuries - just look at how far back its been used at Golden Lion of Macedonia. The Golden Lion symbol is fine - plus it avoids the Greek Macedonia symbol issue.--R-41 (talk) 23:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Who designed the flag is quite irrelevant indeed. Like I said, political implications aside - its up to the Macedonians. You can't push your opinion on which coat of arms RoM "should" adopt. Greece has the right to protest, but Macedonia is a sovereign country. If their protest wasn't sufficient to change the position of the Macedonian government - it is presumptuous for you to decide they were "wrong", and that you should make that call for yourself. Do you get my meaning? If and when the Bulgarian Lion actually becomes the symbol (and it was formally rejected), then we can use it. Why not simply use the rising sun as in the current Macedonian CoA, recognized universally across the world? -- Director (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Again, I am removing the older version I posted earlier so that the images don't pile up on this talk page. Here is the latest version with changes you requested. Be advised that if Greek users complaint to me because they say the Sun sumbol is just a modified Vergina Sun and shout anti-FYROM ranting on me, I will say that it was not my original choice to use that symbol - I will show them the original version - I do not want to take crap from Greek users who may be mad at me using the Sun symbol. I do not want to be accused by any user of having sympathies on one side of the other on the issue of the Macedonia naming and symbols conflict I changed the background colour scheme for the Montenegrin lion - the green and blue looked too out of place, I used a red background to keep the colour scheme of the coat of arms - and besides the Montenegrin flag is largely red.--R-41 (talk) 00:58, 27 February 2012 (UTC) Complaints from Greek nationalists (I believe you used the word "bigots") do not concern me in the slightest - and neither should they concern you. The Republic of Macedonia is a sovereign state and is completely within its rights to use any flag or coa it chooses. Frankly I am appalled that this is an issue at all. What the flag of the Republic of Macedonia should be is entirely up to the Macedonians. Whether they will indulge Greek nationalist complaints is entirely a matter of diplomatic courtesy. The Greeks were very quiet indeed when the SFRY existed, with its Macedonian coat of arms featuring the sun symbol, but had no problem pouncing on tiny, destitute, independent Macedonia and making various arrogant threats and demands from its sovereign government. In short, we're talking about symbols of Yugoslavia here - not Greece. In such concerns, I recommend you try to be more considerate as to what Yugoslavs might find acceptable, and significantly less what nationalists in some other country might think. -- Director (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC) I said bigots in general, no I am not saying that all Greek nationalists are automatically bigots - I do not have a problem with patriotism, but I do not wish conversation nor confrontation with bigots of whomever their nationality may be. I am not going to comment on your statements involving your opinions regarding Greece. I have no informed opinion on the matter of the history of the Macedonia naming and symbols dispute, other than that I want to not offend anyone and that I don't want to be harassed by angry users from Greece or the Republic of Macedonia. I did take your comments into consideration - I don't think you've realized that I changed the coat of arms to now include the Republic of Macedonia's sun symbol at the bottom, so let's move on. I am bolding this not for shouting but to bring your attention to this in particular that I want to focus on: I accepted your premise on the sun symbol and the sun symbol is now in the new version of the coat of arms that is shown on the right side of the page - is the coat of arms acceptable now?--R-41 (talk) 02:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC) I'm sorry, but one gets the impression that, to you, Balkans nationalists are "bigots" who don't know what's good for them, whereas we must all be careful to accommodate Greek nationalism? You did not particularly care what Bosnian Croat nationalists and Bosnian Serb nationalists think of the coat of arms you were proposing for Bosnia (and they live there!), whereas you hold Greek nationalist sentiment and their demands in high regard. I have nothing against Greece or Greeks, but I am appalled at the bullying of Macedonia on their part. I find it very distasteful that nationalists in one country prevailed to change the the flag and state name of another sovereign country. And it is a statement of fact that they made no such demands when Macedonia was part of the Yugoslav federation. The CoA looks alright to me, on to the flag. You have no suggestions other than the plain tricolour? -- Director (talk) 15:44, 27 February 2012 (UTC) I believe the plain tricolour is appropriate - it is recognizable, it has been used as a symbol of Yugoslavia from the beginning to end - including as I mentioned as a flag badge on the Yugoslav Partisans' uniforms. The coat of arms could be superimposed on the tricolour - the problem is that it will be confusing to people who have never seen the flag in that arrangement. I do believe that the Yugoslavia Merit Barnstar Award probably needs some symbol on it other than a plain tricolour if we want to make it look impressive - so the coat of arms symbol shown here would be appropriate to put on top of the tricolour in the Merit Barnstar Award. I am going to make a couple more changes to the coat of arms however - I am going to add a modernist-appearing mural crown with the national symbols of the two major minority groups of Yugoslavia - Albanians and Hungarians, and within the crown have the symbols of the three major religions of the country - the cross of Orthodox Christianity, the cross of Catholic Christianity, and the crescent moon and star of Islam. With these added, the symbol will be as inclusive as possible to the peoples of Yugoslavia.--R-41 (talk) 16:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC) CoA suggestions: I still think it would be great if the black borders were removed.. :P Outside, and in between, and in the the Serbian Cross. Perhaps a more "streamlined" general shape of the coa would be appropriate? I still think the pointy end is archaic and unnecessary. Perhaps the kite shield shape Slovenia uses? Or the rounded shape of Croatia and Serbia? I know this will sound silly, but its looking rather too complex. Like something that's really from the 19th century. I don't know how to make it look less complex, but if its possible...? The fleur de lys seems a little off-center, and to a lesser extent the Triglav For the love of all things aesthetically pleasing, please do not add more coats of arms! :) In the crown or elsewhere. Perhaps you could instead use the crown to make the main CoA less complex? You seem to like complexity, but the more complex it gets the more "forced" it looks. I'd go for streamlined simplicity as much as possible. I wouldn't support any version with religious symbols. Separation of church and state. Flag: I don't know what to tell you.. The simple tricolour is just out of the question. As I said before, I would love if we could use it, but we can not. Its unacceptable to a large portion of Yugoslavs. Maybe, if we had a less overwhelmingly complex coat of arms, something like a "lesser coat of arms", we might impose it in the center of a 2:3 tricolour flag and have something that looks like its neutral. Another option is to combine the various tricolours. See the naval ensign here (see the tricolours to the right) or the "Flag of Serbo-Croatian friendship". Also, as I said, a flag with seven horizontal stripes of red-blue-white-blue-red-white-blue covers the Serbian (red-blue-white), Slovene (white-blue-red), and Croatian (red-white-blue) tricolours. Just giving you suggestions/ideas -- Director (talk) 16:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC) File:Grb nove Jugoslavije.svg The new Yugoslavian coat of arms. I am again removing earlier editions of the emblem from here so the talk page isn't clogged by them. The final version that I have designed - I found a way to remove all of the black outlining except for a black outline along the edge of the coat of arms that is followed by a golden rim. I added a golden rim because the golden rim on the star of the SFRY looked impressive on the flag, so I put a gold rim on the coat of arms, especially for the case of putting the coat of arms on the Yugoslav tricolour flag. I am keeping the pointed bottom, it gives space for the the sun emblem of the Republic of Macedonia and makes the coat of arms look distinct.--R-41 (talk) 03:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC) The simple plain tricolour is not out of question for me - the tricolour - regardless of whether it had an emblem or not on it - was used from 1918 to 1991 across Yugoslavia. The plain tricolour symbol has been used by the Partisans, and besides a plain tricolour does not say a political statement - the only royalist flag would be a politically-charged flag that has the Kingdom's crowned eagle coat of arms on it. The tricolour needs to be used - it is the most common known symbol of Yugoslavia. Former Yugoslavian people will know what the blue-white-red tricolour is, whether it has an emblem or not - the tricolour needs to be the primary symbol. The pointed bottom of the coat of arms is intended in the design - I don't mind an archaic looking coat of arms - most eastern European countries have adopted such archaic looking arms. Besides, I have the pointed bottom because I clearly want the symbol to look similar to the Fojnica Armorial used by the Yugoslavist Illyrian Movement that had a pointed bottom and similar aesthetic arrangements. As for combining the coat of arms with the flag, as I mentioned earlier - the coat of arms could be added on top of the tricolour on the Merit Barnstar Award - as the plain tricolour version of the Barnstar that I designed doesn't look distinguishable.--R-41 (talk) 03:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC) Excellent work thus far, here are a few further suggestions from me: Greater CoA Why the thick yellow border? I would use either no border (just the colour), or a thin light grey border like the Serbian coa uses [9]. If you really like the wider outline, how about doing it in light grey? Yellow isn't really a "Yugoslav colour". That shield shape just isn't used in Yugoslavia. Its archaic, what can I tell ya? It also looks like the shape of Serbia and Montenegro's coa (and I hope we've established that any likeness to the symbols of a "Serboslavia" needs to be avoided like the plague - the threat of Serb predominance essentially toppled both Yugoslavias). How about picking one of the shapes that are actually currently used by Yugoslav states? Or better yet, picking one as the shapes thereof as the general model and then modifying its details as needed? Or how about this shape? Forget about the Fojnica Armorial, we're trying to cater to modern Yugoslavs. Its ancient history, most people never even heard about it. And never mind "eastern Europeans". Fyi, most Yugoslavs do not consider themselves "eastern Europeans", that's a typically North American view. I for example live more to the west than Vienna. The fleur-de-lys still looks a bit off-center, if you don't mind me saying so. In general, I would desaturate the colours just a bit, to avoid contrast. Red and blue don't look very well when they're next to each-other. I'm by no means suggesting you should use their shade (just a limited desaturation), but see how Serbia solved that problem with their new flag [10] by desaturating the colours they had previously been using [11]. And look at poor Russia [12] and Taiwan [13], my eyes hurt looking at their flags :). Lesser CoA If we could cook-up a (significantly simpler) "Lesser Coat of Arms" we might use it with the tricolour and solve the flag issue. I've been thinking along those lines but could not think of any really good proposals. Do you have any ideas? P.S. I see that your original inspiration for the coa shape was the Coat of Arms of Serbia and Montenegro [14]? Either way its a good thing you gave-up on the Serbian/Byzantine two-headed eagle [15]. That'a very Serbian symbol and its absolutely despised by non-Serbs. Again, I don't mind it, to me it looks "kinda cool", but I understand what it would mean to non-Serbs. I'll say again, the thing to avoid like the bloody plague, are any sort of allusions to the superiority of Serbian symbols or (perhaps even more) to symbols of a Serb-dominated Yugoslav state. Serbs are the most numerous Yugoslav ethnic group, by a rather wide margin, and the threat of their supremacy in Yugoslavia (à la Russians in Russia) essentially destabilized/destroyed both Yugoslavias. -- Director (talk) 17:36, 28 February 2012 (UTC) Well I designed it to look like the Fojinca Armorial - an ancient symbol used by Yugoslavists like the Illyrian movement, if you want to design your own version with a rounded bottom you can, I have made every other change you asked for. It is not a Serb-centred symbol - it doesn't have a big Serbian eagle in the background and because as I said it is clearly based on the design of the Fojinca Armorial used by the Illyrian movement, and remember that both Bosnia's arms and Montenegro's arms have a pointed bottom but Serbia's arms do not. The golden outline is like that of the SFRY star - it aides in giving the symbol a visual unity with the golden border - and I have seen golden borders used frequently on Yugoslav and ex-Yugoslav flags. You have to understand that there are multiple layers in this vector image with the pointed bottom outline - I would have to go through layer after layer to change it, I've already spent enough time changing it to address the more serious issues that you addressed. I've spend enough time on this - the pointed bottom is fine, the golden rim looks good, gives the symbol a sense of unity and all the serious issues that you addressed and I acknowledged that needed to be dealt with, have been dealt with.--R-41 (talk) 19:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC) Obviously I'm not "forcing" you to do anything. Designing a whole new coat of arms for an area as complex as ex-Yugoslavia naturally isn't a little side project. You'd be hard pressed to think of a more difficult task in heraldry. -- Director (talk) 19:41, 28 February 2012 (UTC) That is why this last design is my final offer. It will take too much time to redesign the multiple layers that have that pointed bottom - I would likely have to start the whole symbol over from scratch-beginning just to account for all the changes of shapes that would occur. The only elements that I may consider adding to it are a mural crown with two small shields in it for the Albanian and Hungarian minorities - though I may not because some may say that this would favour a Serb irredentist view towards Kosovo. The symbols represent the six republics that formed Yugoslavia. I don't like to brag about my work - that can be shotty and crappy at times - but this coat of arms since you and I worked out the details is the best and most complete and balanced symbol for a modern coat of arms of Yugoslavia. I have invested as much time in this as I am willing to, I know from experience of designing an emblem for a local church that nitpicking over tiny issues can go on and on forever, eventually the designer has to say "this is the best I can do, I addressed as many of the issues that you addressed that I could, I am satisfied with what I designed, and I have invested as much time as I wish to into this, and this is my final offer". And that is the case here, all major issues have been addressed, the symbol is satisfactory to me, and this is as much time as I want to invest in designing it.--R-41 (talk) 19:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC) Now I will add the symbol to the tricolour flag for a "Yugoslavian flag with coat of arms" option and put up a new proposal for a new Yugoslavian Merit Barnstar Award symbol with the tricolour and this coat of arms on top of it, and see if you and others think it is an acceptable apolitical version for the Barnstar Award.--R-41 (talk) 19:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC) What?? This is a historical WikiProject. Like WikiProject Soviet Union. Using the last Yugoslav flag is not "political" - its historically accurate. Far from apoliticizing the project, to use a user-created symbol of a "new Yugoslavia" would indicate this is some kind of Yugoslavist political "forum" or "club". Its not. And I'm afraid there is simply no way we can use any of the symbols of Serbia and Montenegro which you seem to prefer and think they're "apolitical". Maybe if we had a few symbols we all of us agreed on, we could put them up on the Project page as a novelty nice piece of work, but that's it. No fantasy/sci-fi barnstar symbols or "future Yugoslavias". At least not unless people agree that a "new Yugoslavia" is what this project is about. -- Director (talk) 22:18, 28 February 2012 (UTC) Here is an example of a historical Iranian flag used for the WikiProject Iran template and for the WikiProject Iran user template. Iran is not Yugoslavia, and flags are not interchangeable. Please stop clogging the thread with these nonsense unrelated images. -- Director (talk) 00:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC) Here is the flag map that is used at WikiProject Iran. It does not use the most recent flag - the current flag of the Islamic Republic. We've gone through this before, the plain tricolour is not politically-charged, the tricolour with our without an emblem has been used from 1918 to 1991, and the Partisans used the plain tricolour flag as a symbol, and you cannot prove that everyone who flew the plain tricolour was a royalist from 1918 to 1943, and you can't prove that everyone who flew the plain tricolour flag from 1992 to 2006 was a Milosevic fanatic. Don't anal retentively overanalyze a flag that is made of three stripes that has been used with or without an emblem for almost a century.--R-41 (talk) 23:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC) I am not changing the coat of arms symbol anymore - you have no right to be angry or frustrated with my work - I listened to almost every one of your concerns - but complaining about a curve is nitpicking - stop worrying about some symbol fanatic who will burst into outrage because they think the curve looks too much like that of S&M - anyone who would burst into a fit of rage over a curve is irrational and insane. There is no big Serbian eagle clutching the arms like that on the S&M coat of arms - if that was there then that would be inappropriate. The coat of arms is fine to me, it will take too long to change all of the layers that have the curve in it - I have invested as much time as I can with it, it is done.--R-41 (talk) 23:45, 28 February 2012 (UTC) Right, I'm done here. You consider your own personal perceptions "superior" to those of Yugoslavs with regard to their own symbols. Its quite baffling. Let me stop you here: there is no reason whatsoever to consider any older or newer flag than the one Yugoslavia used last, and for the longest period of time. Both Yugoslav flags are politically charged, the versions with and without the red star. You may not "think" they are, or you may think they "shouldn't" be, but they are. And that's a matter of general knowledge around here. Deal with it. -- Director (talk) 00:18, 29 February 2012 (UTC) Here is what a Yugoslav user uses for a flag of Yugoslavia - it is based upon the plain tricolour - it does not have the red star. I don't appreciate being spit upon after doing all that work for you. You think you are angry, I am OUTRAGED with your utter disrespect for all the work I have done for you! Don't start playing a fit of anger - I worked with you to resolve almost every issue you addressed - you have no right to be this angry at me after all the work I did for you to address you concerns. Didn't you hear what I said - it will take TOO LONG to redesign the bottom of the symbol - I would have to change multiple layers. No I do not think I am "superior" to Yugoslavs on the symbols - I wanted input - THAT'S WHY I LISTENED TO MUCH OF YOUR ADVICE! And no - you do not represent every single Yugoslav just as I do not represent every single Canadian. I have in fact encountered a Yugoslav royalist on Wikipedia, and you clearly and deliberately discriminate against Yugoslav royalists as seen in your comments - they are Yugoslavs too. I showed you a Yugoslav user's image who uses a plain tricolour with a new arms. We have to have a symbol that can represent all Yugoslavs - Yugoslavs know what the tricolour is. You are being anal retentive about "tricolour flag with star=good and makes me happy :)" "tricolour flag without star=evil and makes me angry! >:(" (the last symbols are a happy face and angry face). I could make up the same argument for the WikiProject Iran template - that the plain Iranian tricolour is associated with the Shah and not the Islamic Republic and thus argue that it is reactionary, but it has not just been used by the Shah - the flag was shortly used by the Islamic Republic. WikiProject Iran uses a historical flag on the flag-map template, this project's flag-map can too. You relented when you said this comment: "I don't know... the only thing I can think of is that we invent some flag of our own. Maybe a Wikipedia "W" over the tricolour?" I already showed you that the Partisans used a plain tricolour flag symbol - do you have a problem with the symbol that the Partisans chose to use themselves?--R-41 (talk) 00:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC) If you do not immediately apologize for insulting the hours of work that I have done for you, I will report you for violation of WP:CIVIL, and I will even report myself alongside you in a report of both of us, because I have been significantly uncivil with you here, because I will not tolerate working in exchange for abuse, and if you keep it up, I am willing to sacrifice my Wikipedia privileges to have you reprimanded for this work abuse. If you are such a patriot to your country of Yugoslavia you should know better that people like Tito would not tolerate people working hard in exchange for abuse and being spit upon by those they have worked for for, as you have done to me!--R-41 (talk) 01:05, 29 February 2012 (UTC) "You worked for me"? Ok this is just creeping me out man. There was some HUGE misunderstanding here. At no point would I myself agree to using some made-up coat of arms for this historical country project. Using it would make this look like a Yugoslavist political "club" that supports a new Yugoslavia, not a WikiProject about a defunct historical country. You made these coats of arms for yourself quite a while ago. All I did was I liked your work and made a few suggestions on how I think you might modernize and improve the design (you talked about selling it somehwere). Now you're angry because I don't agree with you on the Serbia and Montenegro tricolour.. Feel free to report me, but please do not harass me further on my talkpage. -- Director (talk) 01:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC) Please just apologize for insulting hours of work that I did - stop acting like a jerk to me.--R-41 (talk) 01:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC) Um.. what??' I'll respond on my talkpage. -- Director (talk) 01:47, 29 February 2012 (UTC) WikiProject Yugoslavia should be extended to include modern times because Yugoslavs still exist, there remains Yugoslav culture, and issues of the Yugoslav wars As said above there are current issues involving Yugoslavia that continue to exist. There are people who are still Yugoslavs, there are Yugoslav veterans from World War II, there remains a Yugoslav culture among those who still relate to Yugoslavia, and there are issues that continue to this day involving the breakup of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav wars - and international tribunal trials are still being held about the Yugoslav wars.--R-41 (talk) 16:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC) I support this motion. Perhaps you should notify the members personally. -- Director (talk) 18:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC) Great, i like it too... --WhiteWriterspeaks 11:18, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Supported. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:01, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Can you explain exactly what would you extend? Which new articles would you tag with the WPFY tag? Yugoslavs and ICTY are already tagged anyway. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2012 (UTC) Well insofar as I understand the idea, R-41 believes the scope of the WikiProject Yugoslavia should be extended up to the present day. In other words, all articles who's subject is related to the area of Yugoslavia, period. That is, the WikiProject would not only encompass the historical state(s) and its formation, but would include modern-say subjects related to ex-Yugoslavia as well. I myself support this in principle. I do, however, anticipate certain problems when someone tries to enter articles like Croatia into WikiProject Yugoslavia :). That said, its really up to us alone as WikiProject members to decide on the scope. -- Director (talk) 19:18, 23 March 2012 (UTC) I fail to see the point myself. What is "Yugoslav" about e.g. Varaždin? Should we tag that with WP:A-H too? It looks like a very slippery slope and there is no immediately obvious benefit. If one wants to track all articles about former Yugoslavia, they can track the seven other WikiProjects instead, and have it all nicely categorized per republic/province. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:17, 23 March 2012 (UTC) Yes... seven WikiProjects.. one might notice a benefit in tracking these articles through one project. Well Varazdin was a Yugoslav city, and if its decided on those grounds that WikiProject Yugoslavia should extend to include it, then it should include it. As for "slippery slope", slippery slope to what? I fail to perceive any possible negative aspects of this proposal as regards the functioning of Wikipedia. There are some "ideological" difficulties, and it is perhaps debatable whether there are some strong benefits to this, but I do not foresee any particularly negative outcome at the bottom of the proverbial "slippery slope". It's a slope to pointless scope creep, and you know it. We don't tag all historical articles with {{WikiProject History}}, or all geographical articles with {{WikiProject Geography}}; instead, they're split by period, region, etc. There is nothing ideological about not spamming talk pages with excess WP categorization. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:02, 24 March 2012 (UTC) Also, I will mention here that should this proposal go through, i.e. if the scope of the project is expanded from coverage of the historical states themselves, the (historical) communist symbols on the WikiProject banners might be modified to a more ideologically "neutral" version (as was discussed at embarrassing length just above). -- Director (talk) 00:09, 24 March 2012 (UTC) @Joy. Well I suppose its a matter of perspective whether adding this banner would be "spamming", that's one of the points up for discussion in this thread. @"and you know it" - what I know is that this expansion would be controversial on an "ideological" level. I see no inherent detrimental aspects from the perspective of the functioning of Wikipedia. -- Director (talk) 13:38, 24 March 2012 (UTC) Such an extension of use of the project tag is entirely pointless. The WP:FY itself says specifically that it does not include "articles on modern-day settlements, countries and/or regions that were part of Yugoslavia during its existence" or "history articles of modern-day settlements, countries and/or regions that do not exclusively cover a period during which the place was a part of Yugoslavia" and that is for a good reason - that would offer no benefit and therefore be pointless.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:19, 24 March 2012 (UTC) "As said above there are current issues involving Yugoslavia that continue to exist. There are people who are still Yugoslavs, there are Yugoslav veterans from World War II, there remains a Yugoslav culture among those who still relate to Yugoslavia, and there are issues that continue to this day involving the breakup of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav wars - and international tribunal trials are still being held about the Yugoslav wars." There are very few "issues involving Yugoslavia" that come to mind. "People who are still Yugoslavs" have no public visibility in any of Yugoslav successor countries - either as an ethnic group or a political force; "Yugoslav veterans from WW2" have their associations, none of which is notable enough or politically influential enough to merit an article here. "Yugoslav culture among those who still relate to Yugoslavia" is quite a vague and meaningless construct. Have you ever seen a book published post-breakup which deals with current "Yugoslav culture"? Issues involving the breakup of Yugoslavia probably involve succession treaties on the former state's properties an the Hague tribunal - the former have been resolved for the most part and the latter has announced that its work has been finished - there will be no more indictments at the Hague, everyone wanted by the court has been extradited and once the ongoing trials are done the whole thing will be over. Yugoslavia is just a chapter in history and should be treated as such, not unlike Austria-Hungary or the Ottoman Empire. Not to mention that this would for sure attract a flood of vandalism across hundreds of pages and would on the other hand offer little or no benefit editing-wise. Timbouctou (talk) 15:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC) It's totaly unnecessary, since we alredy have WikiProjects taking care of subjects related to Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia and Slovenia. What's the point of adding templates to the talk pages? That wouldn't have any connection with reallity. This WikiProject was founded to take care of Yugoslavia-related articles, that is history related articles. Everything other is just unnecessary. --Wustenfuchs 19:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC) Poll? Everyone, should we do this with a poll? Its really not so much a factual dispute but a matter of personal opinion. It might be a good idea to notify all members and ask them to state their position on the proposal. The actual discussion could continue just above. -- Director (talk) 15:42, 24 March 2012 (UTC) It's unnecessary. People joined this project to improve Yugoslavia's historical articles, and also joined some other WikiProjects, like WP Slovenia to improve articles related to present-day Slovenia. Adding WP Yugoslavia template to a talk page have no connection to reallity, and it's funny a bit. What's the point to add a template? I'm sure users in WP Croatia will do way better improving Croatia-related articles then those in WP Yugoslavia, so no need for this one. --Wustenfuchs 19:18, 26 March 2012 (UTC) Flag and barnstar issue: a non-SFRY version of the barnstar should be available as well, a plain map of Yugoslavia File:Yugoslav tricolours.png Flag composed of the Serbian (top), Slovene (middle), and Croatian (bottom) tricolours File:Flag of Yugoslavia (proposed).png This is my suggestion :), or at least, its the best I've thought of so far A plain Yugoslavian tricolour flag version of the Yugoslavian Merit of Barnstar. This should be available, especially for those who wish for a plain tricolour version and not a SFR Yugoslavian tricolour version. This is the plain tricolour version of the Yugoslavia barnstar that I designed. Due to the possibility of assumption of political affiliation of Yugoslavia's historic Communist regime with the SFRY flag with the red star, I believe that two versions of the Yugoslavia barnstar should be available - one with the SFRY red star and a plain Yugoslav tricolour. A person presented with such an award should be asked whether they wish to be presented with the SFRY flag barnstar or the plain Yugoslav tricolour barnstar. Also the right is a plain map of Yugoslavia with no flag or political symbols on it - this or a similar map I think should replace the current map on the main page that uses the SFRY flag, the plain map is more neutral.--R-41 (talk) 18:23, 15 May 2012 (UTC) As I explained several times, your aim does you credit but the plain tricolor unfortunately also carries political connotations. -- Director (talk) 14:39, 16 May 2012 (UTC) You need to provide evidence that others find the plain tricolour flag offensive, otherwise it only appears to be your opinion. The problem with your tricolours flag is that it excludes Bosnia, Macedonia, and Montenegro that either don't have such tricolours. I am not requesting that the plain tricolour barnstar replace the current barnstar, but that it be a second option for those awarded the barnstar to choose from should they not wish to have a barnstar with the SFRY red star on it.--R-41 (talk) 17:58, 16 May 2012 (UTC) R-41 that flag is far from neutral and has represented KoY and FRY. The latter of which was a participant in the Yugoslav Wars. The map you've presented is of SFRY and is evident to anyone with a basic understanding of the region. DIREKTOR, your suggestion neglects the other republics of Yugoslavia. Anyway enough of these silly fantasy symbols guys. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 18:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC) Haha, the voice of reason :). Its kind of fun, actually.. thinking up a reasonably satisfactory hypothetical flag. (That's not my suggestion, its just a neat idea I had. We would of course have to incorporate others too. I'll post my suggestion.) -- Director (talk) 19:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC) I've attached my idea. It's derived from an old sketch by a famous Yugoslavist named Tomislav Jeffersonovic. It incorporates the pan-slavic colors; however, it uses bi-color stripes rather than tri-color stripes to avoid offending anyone. A star is also included to represent how glorious the wikiproject is; however, it's repeated 50 times to decrease the viewer chances of not grasping how truly glorious we are. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 22:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC) The most glorious and neutral flag. Director, you still need to provide evidence that others find the plain tricolour flag offensive otherwise it is your opinion. What sources do you have that demonstrate that Yugoslavs find a plain tricolour offensive? (Don't just give pictures of Croats burning or descerating that flag, because Croats in 1990 to 1992 can be seen burning and desecrating the SFRY flag as well - Croatian nationalists despised Yugoslavia, provide written sources and be careful with them - there sources written by nationalists who opposed Yugoslavia altogether). Polish Wikipedia's article on Yugoslavia represents all the historical flags of Yugoslavia [16] - you may contest the use of the flag of the FRY - but what about Polish Wikipedia's use of both the plain tricolour and the SFRY tricolour - could both be used. --R-41 (talk) 22:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC) Apologies R-41, I'm too busy rolling on the floor to respond in detail. -- Director (talk) 09:55, 17 May 2012 (UTC)