Talk:Caste

Caste society isn't class society.

The nobility of medieval and modern Europe hadn't moral or religious foundament but only juridical foundament. Examples in Italy: Sforza, Visconti, Scaligeri, Gonzaga, Medici ecc, were of bourgeois origin. The families immigrant into the city could change social status in few generations and with money they could buy titles or to marry member of feudal families. I remember that the butchers' guild families ruled on Florence sometime in Renaissance. The Christian faith made ​​problematic the "social difference", indeed all Christians should be equal for God. The caste society instead is completely close ... generally and morally, passively accepted while in Europe in little villages, the serfs hated the feudal society that was imposed that no accepted passively. Sorry for English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.73.44 (talk) 22:41, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to wiki talk page, user 84.222.73.44. Wiki articles summarize all sides of scholarly work, include different theories and controversies from reliable secondary sources. Some sources emphasize the possible differences between caste and class; some sources explain the key differences between class/caste societies of our modern world and societies a 100 or 300 or 1000 years ago; yet, other sources urge that we do not close our assumptions and live with favorite prejudices in this matter. For example, Cagots of France and unehrliche Leute of Germany amongst others were castes. These people were shunned by a closed system not just by the society they lived in, but also by church - and these were morally and religiously justified in medieval and modern Europe. Yes, 'caste is a closed system' is emphasized by many scholars, and this article adequately includes that emphasis. This article is about caste, as described by a wide range of peer reviewed scholarly work, a range that includes much disagreement. Wiki can only strive to present all sides with a neutral point of view, not join the controversies on one side. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 13:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This article is self-contradictory about definitions. It begins by stating "Haviland defines caste as a closed form of social stratification in which membership is determined by birth and remains fixed for life; castes are also endogamous and offsprings are automatically members of their parent's caste" -- there is no alternative, broader definition provided, but this does not apply to Europe. A medieval priest, for example, was not born into a "priest caste" and it was possible for serfs/slaves to rise into the ranks of free men or free men to become serfs. Hierarchy and social class existed, of course, but it wasn't rigid. If the stricter definition of caste is to be employed, then Europe should be removed. If a broader definition is to be used, one that encorporates social class as equivalent to caste, then the beginning of this article needs to be re-written.

DeciusAemilius (talk) 17:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

DeciusAemilius - your comments are welcome and appreciated. Do you have a reliable secondary source for those views? per wiki's WP:VNT and WP:RS guidelines.

The claim priest/clergy were not born into a priest caste, or that these were not hereditary, is inconsistent with scholarly works on papal/clergy history. See the following as a sample of hundreds of articles that European clergy at various times were a hereditary privilege/reality

• Saeculum obscurum and pornocracy in the history of Papacy - one of the several periods of hereditary/nepotism in clergy
• Three Popes - Pope Callixtus III, Pope Alexander VI, Innocent X - and other clergy from the same family
• Hereditary aspects of Russian clergy - the peer reviewed article calls it a caste
• Second source on hereditary caste of Russia clergy (you can find many more articles)
• Various scholars on Church History have published peer reviewed articles on clergy and aristocracy caste in France. (see Norman Ravitch's book on Episcopate as well). For example, check the article on pages 459-460 of the journal: Church History, Volume 37, Issue 04, December 1968 (doi=10.2307/3162267)

Further, this mobility aspect is not without its share of scholarly dispute. After all, there is abundant literature from South Asia, Southeast Asia, Japan, Africa etc that, across history, some people in all cultures could move across class/caste hierarchy, many worked in occupations that their parents didn't, example cases where people moved up or down the hierarchy, etc.

If you provide some reliable secondary sources that strongly support your views, please cite them. I will read them, and we can try to develop a consensus to improve this article. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 18:24, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I add something I missed - check up published books and peer reviewed secondary sources on 'clergy and laity caste in Europe'. Not just medieval times, there is a lot of literature on this through the 20th century. Clergy/monks and laity in Europe, these sources claim, were caste or caste-like, each came from certain families generation after generations, had certain occupations within the Church reserved for them (laity did cleaning/physical work/etc), in many cases even segregated to prevent interaction, mobility was possible but infrequent to rare. See this journal article for example: The Independence of the Laity, Lancelot Sheppard, The Furrow, Volume 4, Issue 10 (Oct., 1953), pages 569-575; jstor=27656324.

Finally, please note it isn't the case the sources and the peer reviewed scholarly articles cited in this article, discuss and exclusively use the term class, and some wiki contributor did some WP:OR and carelessly with a WP:POV substituted the term class with caste. These published and cited sources use or describe the term caste, when they could have used any other social stratification term. The summary in this article, to the best of my verification efforts, and as required by wiki guidelines, directly reflect what the sources have published.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 13:53, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Law Regarding Caste Discrimination in India

The good faith contributions from user Indian.advocate to this wiki article are welcome. On June 15 2012, the user has reverted changes without any explanation; the user is requested to explain his or her actions on this talk page. The added material has several issues.

• Style inconsistent to wiki MOS for encyclopedic article: The user has combined a mix of excessive emphasis with boldface, use of abbreviations such as sc/st (unknown to a worldwide audience), references in square brackets such as [Para 34]. Please see WP:STYLE for these and other wiki style and format guidelines.
• The added content reads as a repository of paragraphs of Indian law. However as WP:NOTREPOSITORY explains, wiki articles are not such a collection.
• The article is about caste. Undue emphasis on individual legal cases, for one or all countries, places undue emphasis on legal contemporary aspect of the topic, thus raising WP:UNDUE issues.

Explanation is requested. A summary of current law would improve this article and Indian.advocate is welcomed to help evolve a constructive summary of newly added legal content. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 17:23, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The contributions made by the user - indian.advocate were made to explain the latest and crucial development in law relating to caste discrimination in India - The kind in which some parts have been displayed in bold are done with the sole purpose to enable the users to understand the nature and content of the contribution and also so as to give clear cut citation reference to the original judgment of an Indian Court [if any person wants to read the whole judgment than through this contribution it will be extremely easy to trace that judgment]. The kind of contribution made is clearly verifiable and authentic. The meaning of SC is Scheduled Castes and the meaning of ST is Scheduled Tribes - both of these words indicate socially backward parts of Indian Society which need some social benefits by the Government. If any further explanation regarding the contribution is required the user -indian.advocate will be obliged to clear them. The judgment given in this contribution also explains the Indian Legal Point of view regarding the real discrimination which ordinary SC and ST people experience in their daily Indian life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indian.advocate (talk • contribs) 10:06, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Excessive bolds and italics violate wiki style guidelines. Please see WP:WWIN and WP:STYLE. On format, please also see WP:CITE/ES.

You write you added this content because '[...] of Indian Society which need some social benefits by the Government'. Why is this not advocacy? (please see WP:NOTADVOCATE)

Why include the case law details in this global article on caste? Why not add case law on caste system for India to caste system in India or caste discrimination in India?

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 13:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

America: caste free? Not necessarily

There may have been castes in the USA, especially in the American South, where the distinction lay largely along racial lines. First of all, the South practiced slavery, which is arguably a caste system in its own right. When that was abolished, it became a sharecropping system, where racial/class distinctions continued to hold, and then segregation reared its ugly head, another sign of a caste system that somehow refused to die. In this case, segregation suggests untouchability, a desire not to be "contaminated" by members of the other group. South Africa took this to the extreme with apartheid, but it existed in the American South, too. And even after the civil-rights movement, there were redlining and the underclass, as well as dynasties of wealthy families such as the Kennedy family and the Rockefellers. So why not put the USA in? 68.37.254.48 (talk) 08:06, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I have added a section to address your comment. Please feel welcome to contribute content that complies with wiki guidelines. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 01:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Serious Neutrality and Balance Issues

I'm afraid this article has serious neutrality and balance issues. Caste is almost universally associated with India. Sure, the word, in transformed and figurative usage, has been applied to forms of stratification or exclusion in other societies, even those of insects, but I've yet to see a significant tertiary source treatment of the subject that does not mention India in the lead sentence or soon thereafter. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It has to be beholden to the longstanding standard in other tertiary sources. We cannot at our will turn the article into a personal essay. The citations for the lead sentence not only are highly selective, but are also selectively chosen from within the cited references. Berreman (1972), cited first for the lead sentence, for example, begins his section on caste with, "A widely applied and frequently contested model for systems of birth ascribed rank is that of ’caste’, deriving from the example of Hindu India where the jati (almost literally ’common ancestry’) is the type-case." and after spending a paragraph discussing the Indian case, says, very cautiously, "If one concedes that caste can be defined cross-culturally (i.e., beyond Hindu India), then the systems under discussion here are describable as caste systems." That sort of academic circumspection hardly lends itself to the abstract, ahistorical, "definition" of the lead sentence. Similarly, the second reference for the lead sentence is Merton's Sociology of Science, which uses the word "caste" obliquely (see the book's index on Google books).

If I don't find a cogent explanation for this somewhat bizarre introduction, in which "India" is mentioned as an afterthought—ensconced in a transparently distancing subordinate clause, to boot—at the end of the lead, I will be tagging the article with neutrality tags. I am also posting on WT:INDIA, where editors, many of whom work on caste-related articles, I believe are unaware of this page and its evolution. I will also look for the better-known tertiary source references and quote a few below. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Here are some tertiary sources:

• Barnard, Alan (2002), Encyclopedia of Social and Cultural Anthropology, Taylor & Francis, pp. 136–137, ISBN 978-0-415-28558-2

  Caste: Caste has been described as the fundamental social institution of India. Sometimes the term is used metaphorically to refer to rigid social distinctions or extreme social exclusiveness wherever found, and some authorities have used the term 'colour-caste system' to describe the stratification based on race in the United States and elsewhere. But it is among the Hindus in India that we find the system in its most fully developed form, ...

• Kuper, Adam; Kuper, Jessica (2003), Social Science Encyclopedia, Taylor & Francis, p. 131, ISBN 978-0-415-28560-5

  Caste systems have been defined in the most general terms as systems of hierarchically ordered endogamous units in which membership is hereditary and permanent (e.g. Berreman 1960). On such a definition a whole range of rigidly stratified societies would be characterized by caste—Japan, for example, or certain Polynesian and East African societies, or the racially divided world of the American Deep South. Hindu India is generally taken as the paradigmatic example. Many scholars would argue, however, that the difference between this case and the others are far more significant than the similarities, and that the term caste should properly be applied only to this context. The morphology of the Hindu caste system can be described in terms of three key characteristics, all of which are religiously underpinned by the religious values of purity....

• Madan, T. N.; Editors (2012), caste, Encyclopæida Britannica Online {{citation}}: |last2= has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |fist2= (help)

  caste, any of the ranked, hereditary, endogamous social groups, often linked with occupation, that together constitute traditional societies in South Asia, particularly among Hindus in India. Although sometimes used to designate similar groups in other societies, the “caste system” is uniquely developed in Hindu societies.

  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:53, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I am delighted with your participation, and with your posting of your concerns first on this talk page. Your efforts to improve this article are very welcome.

I disagree with you on many points. Wiki is a tertiary source, not a copy of tertiary sources (see WP:PSTS). Wiki articles rely on secondary sources, and this article does.

If wiki had just one article on caste, the emphasis would shift - and India covered a lot more - just like other tertiary sources you cite that offer just one article on caste. Wiki, instead has many articles on caste, including one just for 'caste system in India'. That article and this 'caste' article cannot be just a copy of each other - as that would violate several wiki guidelines such as WP:CFORK. Wikipedia has the capability to be far broader, more updated and current, more comprehensive and complete encyclopedia with multiple, non-overlapping articles. This article does so by focussing on the topic of caste, globally, using reliable secondary sources from history, from recent decades and hopefully in future, as they get published.

Yes, in various tertiary sources, such as a few your cite, the topic of caste emphasizes India and is presented with India as context. This wiki article acknowledges that and includes that view in the article's section on India, citing the scholarly work of Dirks. However, for WP:DUE reasons, we must be careful to not imply that this is the only or the dominant view in the world of secondary sources. Per hundreds of secondary sources meeting WP:RS guidelines, many peer reviewed and widely cited, and some published in the last 20-40 years, caste is not 'almost universally associated with India.' The whole article provides ample support.

The introductory sentence is part of the lead. Per WP:LEAD, it is supposed to be a summary of the article's most important aspects. It is not supposed to stereotype India or Latin America or China or wherever. It would be a poor lead summary, if it purely focussed on one section of the article. For what it is worth, the lead includes 'Indian society is often associated with the word caste' in the summary, as it should per WP:DUE.

If your suggestion is that wikipedia should have just one article on caste, like some tertiary sources, please explain why? (I urge you to read the older/archived discussions of this talk page - you will note that other wiki contributors have requested broader, non-ethnocentric focus in this article; please address their concerns too in your reply).

Once again, your input to help improve this article is welcome. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 15:10, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

On Berreman (1972), I quote you: "A widely applied and frequently contested model for systems...". While in this and the other part you quote, you read academic circumspection, I read another evidence of growing dispute between scholars, one Berreman claims is frequent. Per wikipedia's WP:NPOV guidelines, wiki articles must describe the disputes, not engage in them; article must describe all sides/aspects, we must not judge the secondary sources, then pick what we like and summarize that side.

To support that it is more than academic circumspection for Berreman, consider his 1966 paper published in peer reviewed volume 66 of The American Journal of Sociology: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/marilynm/Theorizing_Black_America_Syllabus_files/Caste_in_India_and_the_US.pdf

On page 120, column 2, para 1: Caste can be defined so that it is applicable only to India, just as it is possible to define narrowly almost any socio-cultural phenomenon....[...]

On page 120, column 2, para 2: However, caste can be accurately defined in broader terms....[...] (my emphasis)

On the three tertiary sources cited above, I checked again. All of them do have just one article. Two of them cover the subject of caste in 4 para each, the third is longer but with a 1962 Srinivas book as the only bibliography. If you have any secondary sources that meet WP:RS guidelines, that are not covered by this article, please do provide. I will read them as we discuss this article, so we can together help improve this article.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 16:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Tertiary sources Obviously I'm not suggesting that we abandon Wikipedia's longstanding policy of relying on secondary sources. However, tertiary sources are a guide to broad overviews. Wikipedia policy on tertiary sources states: "Policy: Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, especially when those sources contradict each other." When the emphasis (and summary) in a Wikipedia article runs counter to those in pretty much all other tertiary sources on that topic (and I can cite dozens more), then we can judge the article to be biased; we can judge the article not to be providing a balanced overview. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:23, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Content forks This is the flagship article for all caste-related articles, a WP:Summary style article. The Caste system in India is not an independent topic, but a sub-topic; its article Caste system in India is not an independent article, but a spinoff of this article, just as History of India is a spinoff of India (the flagship page for India-related articles). WP:SPINOFF clearly states, "Summary style articles, with sub-articles giving greater detail, are not POV forking, provided that all the sub-articles, and the summary, conform to Neutral Point of View. Essentially, it is generally acceptable to have different levels of detail of a subject on different pages, provided that each provides a balanced view of the subject matter." In other words, although this article needs to be written in a summary style, its overall emphasis remains the same as that of a single very-long article on "Caste," such as the ones found in other encyclopedias. Again WP:SPINOFF states clearly, "However, the moved material must be replaced with an NPOV summary of that material. If it is not, then the "spinning out" is really a clear act of POV forking: a new article has been created so that the main article can favor some viewpoints over others." This I suggest is exactly what you have done. By treating the Caste system in India as an independent article, and by emphasizing its topic less in this article, it is you (and others who have contributed to this page) who have created a POV-fork. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:28, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

These are the main issues. I don't want to diffuse the focus by going into other issues at this time. I will note that the Caste system in India has had major input from you. Its emphasis too is problematic, citing, as it does, Berreman's single article half a dozen times and early on, and giving weight to Dirks's highly polemical account, whereas Susan Bayly's Caste, Society, and Politics in India, the most widely-used textbook on caste worldwide, goes unreferenced. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:31, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:TPG, I invite you to keep our focus on improving this article. Speculating on other wiki contributor's motives and other articles is inappropriate, as you are doing above and you did more explicitly here when you wrote, 'In the past, this sort of distancing of India from its evils, was engaged in by editors who ...' Such assumptions of yours are not constructive. Our goal in this article shouldn't be to distance India or hold India responsible with a stereotyping summary on caste. Our goal must be to create a good article per wiki guidelines. Please do not assume that caste doesn't exist in Nigeria, or Yemen, or Japan, or elsewhere; that journalists from New York Times to Asahi Shimbun; as well as thousands of scholars from around the world are trying to distance India from its evils, when they write in peer reviewed medium that caste has been and is a worldwide phenomenon. Some of these articles are amongst the most cited of all topics and articles in socio-cultural studies - a summary of these secondary sources on the topic of caste belongs here. Wikipedia is not about creating article that prevent 'distancing X from evil Y'. I request you assume good faith.

On Susan Bayly, I am the one who added her as a reference to this article. Can she be cited more often on this topic?, sure; but the question is: do we need to? Not really, if you consider WP:OVERCITE guidelines. Bayly's work is tertiary, as many textbooks are. Bayly relies on secondary sources, as does this article. Bayly content is already summarized directly and indirectly in this article. (You are mistaken by the way; Bayly has been referenced in other article too by some wiki contributor - check again.)

On to your other points: Tertiary sources such as Wikipedia are indeed guide to broad overviews. Wikipedia strives to provide broad summaries, in neutral and balanced way, covering all significant sides, of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources that may contradict each other. To interpret wiki's sourcing policy, you must consider the whole policy, and its full context. On policy, WP:PSTS suggests this:

Policy: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources.

Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources.

Note that the guidelines do not suggest 'wiki articles usually rely on tertiary sources', rather again and again, it is urging us to use published reliable secondary sources. That is what this article currently does with well over 150 citations, many added not by me, but numerous other wiki contributors. You have, as yet, neither suggested nor shown that this article is not based on reliable, published secondary sources. I ask that you do so.

You allege, "When Wikipedia article runs counter to those in pretty much all other tertiary sources on that topic, then we can judge the article to be biased." This is your point of view. Show us where in WP:PSTS or any other policy guideline page does it state that this is wiki's content policy?

Futher, WP:PSTS guidelines remind us: Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others. We must evaluate a tertiary source or an article in tertiary source. On the topic of caste, there are no reasons to assume that thousands of published, peer reviewed, secondary sources are less reliable, and only the three short articles you cite are reliable or complete. Are there?

Furthermore, your allegation is difficult to understand. You have not shown that this article actually runs counter to any reliable secondary or tertiary source. No tertiary source you have cited so far claims that caste did not exist or is not found in the rest of the world; nor do the three tertiary and Berreman secondary source you cited write that this socio-cultural phenomenon is not a broad phenomenon. Actually, two of your four citations suggest, and one strongly, that caste is a broad phenomena found in non-Indian context. Are you asking that we ignore this part from this article and keep the focus purely on India? why?

On content spin-off and forks: I do not understand your claim that caste system in India is not an independent article. It is both a section in this article and an independent article, see here. This article has a link to the independent, very long article (which, by the way, I encourage you to participate in improving, see its talk page too). One section in this article summarizes the caste system on India. Wiki guidelines suggest that different spin off pages, on related topics, generally offer different levels of detail of a subject, provided that each provides a balanced view of the subject matter. To appreciate this guideline, I urge you to read other complex and broad socio-cultural phenomenon topics, for example, see the related and linked but independent articles: Racism, Racism in the United States and Racial segregation in the United States. The summary sections about United States within the independent article on Racism are short, not an emphasized copy of it. The caste article is and best structured the same way. It would be difficult to maintain two pages with lots of overlapping content. This article on caste does something similar.

Caste is a broad topic, and wikipedia at its best strives to include all significant viewpoints in a balanced and neutral way. Thousands of articles by reliable sources have been published about caste system in India, and thousands of articles by reliable sources have been published about caste system outside India (just like thousands on the broad global topic of racism, and thousands on the specific topic of racism in United States). Exclusively limiting the coverage to one nation on this broad article about caste, avoiding coverage on other nations, or avoiding coverage of this socio-cultural phenomenon in history, of the type you appear to suggest would create serious imbalance and neutrality issues. To persuade, you must explain why Nigerian caste system as discussed in reliable secondary sources by scholars and media in Africa is any less important or any less significant than those about India; or for that matter, in Korea, Japan, Tibet, Yemen, or from history such as Cagots, New Spain, and others? ApostleVonColorado (talk) 15:31, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Additional notes: Susan Bayly (1999), whom you refer to, felt compelled to include this as footnote on page 28 in her book: 'For debate on the existence of caste systems outside India, see... [...]; ... detailed consideration of caste system in Sri Lanka and Nepal is outside the scope of this volume; ...[...].. have pointed to caste like groupings in China and Madagascar;.... colonial Algeria as a caste system.' Let us note that Bayly book is titled Caste, Society, and Politics in India. For this global article on caste, we must broaden our focus past the scope of Bayly's book. We must read, include and summarize other reliable published secondary sources from around the world, over the centuries.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I have only a minute, so let me suggest that you'll waste a lot less time (and space) if you actually read what I've written. Susan Bayly's book, Caste, Society and Politics in India, was mentioned only in the context of the Caste system in India article at the end of my last post, not that of this article. As I had also stated, the book is not cited in that article, only her earlier book, Saint, goddesses and kings is. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:43, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I see Bayly's Caste, Society and Politics in India included, though not cited, in both articles. My focus on this talk page is on this article. You may have mentioned Bayly in the other context, but on this talk page, Bayly's notes on caste system outside India are relevant. Let us focus on this article here. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 20:26, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Reasons why this article should include Gerald Berreman and Nicholas Dirks. Citations and h-index are a means to measure impact, significance, extent of acceptance of major authors and their scholarly contribution. On the topic of caste, here is the data as of August 4 2012:

• Citations for Susan Bayly = 876, h-index = 9
• Citations for Nicholas Dirks = 4200, h-index = 25
• Citations for Gerald Berreman = 2865, h-index = 26
• Nicholas Dirks' book Castes of Mind: Colonialism and the Making of Modern India is well over 250,000 spots higher on books sales list than Susan Bayly's Caste, Society, and Politics in India.

Setting aside the book sales list, both Dirks and Berreman have significantly higher citation index scores (see wiki's WP:RS guidelines for relevance); both are well respected by the community of scholars, and have had more impact/acceptance on the subject than other authors on this subject. The contributions of Berreman and of Dirks should be included in this article about caste. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 21:54, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Conflict in tertiary sources

1. Here is a part of an article on caste from Encyclopedia Americana, the first significant tertiary source encyclopedia published in America. I copy the initial portion of it, because it is from the 1851 version and the copyright has long expired.

CASTE: certain classes whose burdens and privileges are hereditary. The word is derived from the Portuguese casta, and was originally applied, by the conquerors of the East Indies, to the Indian families, whose occupations, customs, privileges and duties are hereditary. This term has been sometimes applied to the hereditary classes in Europe; and we speak of the spirit or the prerogatives and usurpations of a caste, to express particularly that unnatural constitution of society, which makes distinction dependent on the accidents of birth or fortune. The division into castes, among the people of the old world, comes to us from a period to which the light of history does not extend; hence its origin cannot be clearly traced: but it is highly probable that, wherever it exists, it was originally grounded on a difference of descent, and in the modes of living, and that the separate castes were originally separate races of people. This institution, is found among many nations.

The article then goes on to explain caste in Egypt, Persia etc etc., including a note about four castes in India.

Reading this American encyclopedic article on caste and three cited above suggests a conflict between tertiary sources.

2. Is this a unique fringe conflict? I respectively submit, no. Consider Encyclopedia of Africa by Henry Gates Jr., Kwame Appiah (ISBN 978-0195337709). I can not copy and paste it here, because that would be a copyvio. However, if you read it:

There are many articles that discuss castes in various countries of Africa, a continent with great ethnic diversity. For example, see pages 34-47, 132-135, 503-504, 597-598, and other places. Many of these cover socio-cultural facts about caste, are exquisitely detailed, and none of these articles mention India.

Reading this Africa-focussed encyclopedia and those cited above confirms tertiary sources have significant differences/conflicts on the subject of caste.

Tertiary literature about Africa is no less significant than tertiary literature that is India-focussed such as the Taylor & Francis sources cited above. Tertiary publications from America are no less significant either.

If there is conflict or differences amongst tertiary sources, we must consider if one or more of them are comprehensive and complete. The identified conflicts between tertiary sources are more reasons to stick with community agreed Wiki's content sourcing guidelines: use published reliable secondary sources per WP:RS guidelines. That is what this article does.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 12:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

There are two possibilities: a) you are being facetious when offering as evidence the 1851 edition of Encyclopedia Americana or b) you are being serious. My response to the two scenarios are: a) Haha. b) Can you find any Wikipedia policy or guideline that will admit a source from 1851 among reliable sources? Can you suggest any forum on Wikipedia where you would like to discuss the plausibility of an 1851 Encyclopedia Americana volume as an example of a reliable tertiary source? All the examples I have offered you are contemporary examples. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:14, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Has it occurred to you that in 1851 in America there was little knowledge of India? There are significant changes between the 1851 entry on "caste" in Encyclopedia Americana and the 1920 entry on "caste" in Encyclopedia Americana (also available for full view on Google). The 1920 edition says:

CASTE, a social class whose burdens and privileges are hereditary. The word is from the Portuguese casta, race, and was applied by the Portuguese, who became familiar with Hindustan, to the classes in India whose occupations, privileges and duties are hereditary. This term is sometimes applied to the hereditary classes in Europe; and we speak of thc spirit or the prerogatives and usurpations of a caste, to express particularly that peculiar constitution of society which makes distinction dependent on the accidents of birth or fortune. ... Recent evidence however has made the existence of a strict caste system in Egypt rather doubtful. The institution of caste is best known to us as it exists in Hindustan, where it is well known to have existed since perhaps 1,500 or 2000 years before the Christian era. (Note: The remaining three-quarters of the article discusses the caste system in India.)

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:18, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Britannica, on the other hand, its knowledge of India more acute on account of East India Company rule in India, had a more up to date treatment even in 1833. See for example, Baynes, Thomas Spencer (editor) (1833), "Caste", The Encyclopaedia Britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, and general literature, Volume 5, C. Scribner's sons, pp. 186–192, retrieved 5 August 2012 {{citation}}: |first= has generic name (help) (Full view available.) The main point, however, is that all three sources, while great for coffee table displays and antiquarian discussions, are not reliable for Wikipedia purposes. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:21, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Next, I will list some more contemporary tertiary sources (of the last 25 years) and discuss what they say on the subject of "caste." Tertiary sources are useful for gauging overall balance in article. Again, if a Wikipedia article runs counter to the emphasis in articles on the same subject in all other encyclopedias, then the article does not provide a balanced overview (or summary) of the subject. (Please do not interrupt for the next half hour or so while I gather the evidence.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:27, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler's contemporary tertiary sources

The lead paragraphs of tertiary sources published within the last 25 years on the subject of "caste"

Oxford English Dictionary ("caste, n.", Oxford English Dictionary, Second edition; online version June 2012, Oxford University Press, 1989, retrieved 05 August 2012 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)) caste, n. 2a. spec. One of the several hereditary classes into which society in India has from time immemorial been divided; ... This is now the leading sense, which influences all others. Webster's Unabridged Dictionary ("caste", Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged, Merriam-Webster, 2002, retrieved 5 August 2012). caste n. 1 obsolete : .... 2 : one of the hereditary classes into which the society of India is divided in accordance with a system fundamental in Hinduism, reaching back into distant antiquity, .... Barnard, Alan (2002), Encyclopedia of Social and Cultural Anthropology, Taylor & Francis, pp. 136–137, ISBN 978-0-415-28558-2 Caste: Caste has been described as the fundamental social institution of India. Sometimes the term is used metaphorically to refer to rigid social distinctions or extreme social exclusiveness wherever found, and some authorities have used the term 'colour-caste system' to describe the stratification based on race in the United States and elsewhere. But it is among the Hindus in India that we find the system in its most fully developed form, ... Kuper, Adam; Kuper, Jessica (2003), Social Science Encyclopedia, Taylor & Francis, p. 131, ISBN 978-0-415-28560-5 Caste systems have been defined in the most general terms as systems of hierarchically ordered endogamous units in which membership is hereditary and permanent (e.g. Berreman 1960). On such a definition a whole range of rigidly stratified societies would be characterized by caste—Japan, for example, or certain Polynesian and East African societies, or the racially divided world of the American Deep South. Hindu India is generally taken as the paradigmatic example. Many scholars would argue, however, that the difference between this case and the others are far more significant than the similarities, and that the term caste should properly be applied only to this context. ... Madan, T. N.; Editors (2012), caste, Encyclopæida Britannica Online {{citation}}: |last2= has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |fist2= (help) caste, any of the ranked, hereditary, endogamous social groups, often linked with occupation, that together constitute traditional societies in South Asia, particularly among Hindus in India. Although sometimes used to designate similar groups in other societies, the “caste system” is uniquely developed in Hindu societies. "caste", Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th edition, 2012 caste [Port., casta=basket], ranked groups based on heredity within rigid systems of social stratification, especially those that constitute Hindu India. Some scholars, in fact, deny that true caste systems are found outside India. ... "Caste", International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, 2008 Caste: Nearly all societies have had some form of social stratification, whether ascriptive or achieved, based on race, class, religion, ethnicity, language, education, or occupation. The Hindu ascriptive caste system in India is perhaps the most complex and rigid. It is based on birth, which determines one’s occupation (especially in contemporary rural India), and is maintained by endogamy, commensality, rituals, dietary practices, and norms of purity and pollution. The English term caste is derived from the Portuguese word casta, which refers to lineage, breed, or race. ... (The remaining sections of the article are: THE HINDU CASTE SYSTEM, CASTE IN MODERN INDIA, SOME VISIBLE CHANGES IN CASTE RELATIONS, OTHER RELIGIONS AND CASTE, CASTE OUTSIDE INDIA) O'Brien, Jodi (2008), Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, SAGE, pp. 114–117, ISBN 978-1-4129-0916-7 Caste: Caste is a form of social organization that is unique to India and is based on Hindu religious belief. This essay defines the meaning of the caste system and describes the ways in which it has been used to control sexuality, marital status, and economic and social life among women in India. .... Schaefer, Richard T. (2008), Encyclopedia of Race, Ethnicity, and Society, SAGE, pp. 246–, ISBN 978-1-4129-2694-2, retrieved 5 August 2012 Caste: What makes Indian society unique is the phenomenon of caste. Economic, religious, and linguistic differentiations, even race-based discrimination, are known elsewhere, but nowhere else does one see caste but in India (and, by extension, the subcontinent). This entry reviews the history of caste and discusses its impact on individuals and society. Leonard, Thomas M. (editor) (2006), Encyclopedia of the Developing World, Taylor & Francis, pp. 252–, ISBN 978-0-415-97662-6, retrieved 5 August 2012 {{citation}}: |first= has generic name (help) CASTE SYSTEMS Caste is an age-old institution, evoked through several centuries. As a system of stratification, it has existed in many parts of the world and is being practiced today in some countries. But the caste system of closed endogamous descent groups as prevalent and practiced in India is not found elsewhere (Bayly 2010; Kolenda 1984). Caste is a well-entrenched phenomenon in countries like India. ... "Caste", Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions, Merriam-Webster Inc, 1999-09-01, p. 459, ISBN 978-0-87779-044-0 CASTE, group of people having a specific social rank, defined generally by descent, marriage, commensality, and occupation. Although the term caste is applied to hierarchically ranked groups in many different societies around the world, the caste system in its most developed form is found in India. .... (Note: the rest of the article describes the caste system in India.) Forsyth, Tim (2004), Encyclopedia of International Development, Routledge, p. 63, ISBN 978-0-415-25342-0 Caste The jati (caste) system, which evolved during the Vedic period (1500–500 BCE), of Hinduism refers to the endogamous social groups comprising contemporary and Vedic Hindu society and the rules of behavior that govern interaction between these groups. ... (Note: after six long paragraphs on India) Finally, while caste is distinctively Indian in origin, social scientists also often use it to describe inflexible social barriers in other contexts. Christensen, Karen; Levinson, David (2003), Encyclopedia of Community: From the Village to the Virtual World, SAGE, pp. 115–, ISBN 978-0-7619-2598-9, retrieved 5 August 2012 Caste: The term caste is derived from casta, a word used by the Portuguese to describe the Hindu religious system. The caste system categorizes people into various hierarchical levels, which determine and define their social, religious, and hegemonic standings within the society. ... A classic example of the caste system is the one found in India, which has existed there for hundreds of years. Kramarae, Cheris; Spender, Dale (2000), Routledge international encyclopedia of women: global women's issues and knowledge, Taylor & Francis, pp. 142–144, ISBN 978-0-415-92088-9, retrieved 5 August 2012 Caste: Caste is a hierarchical, hegemonic ranking of social groups found predominantly on the Indian subcontinent. A word of Portuguese and Spanish origin .... Junius P. Rodriguez (1997), The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery, Volume 1, ABC-CLIO, p. 133, ISBN 978-0-87436-885-7, retrieved 5 August 2012 Caste: There is a strenuous argument among social scientists over whether the word "caste" can be used anywhere other than in referring to India. The major characteristics of India's caste system are that castes are hereditary, ranked hierarchically, religiously based, theoretically rigid, endogamous, tied to occupations, and politically supported. Additionally, there are rules of ritual purity to prevent or cleanse contamination. Note: This 1968 article is now superseded by the 2008 edition of the encyclopedia (see above): "caste", International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, 1968 Section 1: Concept of Caste (Berreman): The term “caste” has been widely used to describe ranked groups within rigid systems of social stratification and especially those which constitute the society of Hindu India. Debate over whether castes are found outside of India has intensified with increased knowledge and understanding of the Indian caste system. Among social scientists, and especially among those who have worked in India, there are basically two views: (1) that the caste system is to be defined in terms of its Hindu attributes and rationale and, therefore, is unique to India or at least to south Asia; (2) that the caste system is to be defined in terms of structural features which are found not only in Hindu India but in a number of other societies as well. Those who hold the latter view find caste groups in such widely scattered areas as the Arabian Peninsula, Polynesia, north Africa, east Africa, Guatemala, Japan, aboriginal North America, and the contemporary United States. ... Section 2: Indian Caste System (Mayer): The term “caste” is used to designate each unit in the hierarchically arranged organic systems of closed groups to be found on the Indian subcontinent. Besides this, it has been applied to the classical division of Hindu society and to systems of ranked and closed populations found outside India. ...

I have produced 15 tertiary sources published during the last 25 years that all emphasize the Indian context very early on in the lead paragraph. I challenge you to find two contemporary tertiary sources (published in the last 25 years) that have the emphasis and balance of the Wikipedia article. I am out of time now, but will check again tomorrow. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:35, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I do not wish to repeat my comments and questions on tertiary versus secondary sources. I request you read them. Per WP:TPG, I invite you to answer my questions above, so that we can build a consensus on how we can together improve this article. If it would help you, I will summarize my questions, that I am unable to find answers to in your reply.

I have read your 16 sources - dictionaries, etc.; I feel you and I are interpreting the single caste article in those sources and wiki collection of caste articles differently. FWIW, the current article already has over 100 contemporary reliable secondary sources. To help reach a consensus, I am willing to make the effort and post here a few contemporary tertiary sources as well (and I will exclude dictionaries, see WP:WWIN). It will help me save time, and save space on this talk page, if in addition to answering my August 04 2010 questions above, you can answer the following with yes/no: (a) Do you have access to and have you read the various volumes of Encyclopedia Britannica published from 1901 to 1987? (b) Do you have access to and have you read the various print editions of Encyclopedia Americana published from 1920 to 2006? (c) Have you read the caste articles in Encyclopedia of Africa (2010) that I cited above?

Once again, I welcome your efforts to improve this article and invite you to join me in starting the process of reaching a consensus. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 23:51, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid, I don't see you as responding to my two main points. Instead, you are asking me yes/no questions about encyclopedias published between 1901 and 1987! This is the last time I will make these points here. If I do not receive an cogent response, I will not only tag the article for imbalance and bias, but, more importantly, will be forced to pursue this issue at a more trafficked Wikipedia forum.

Let me repeat again: as I see it,

(a)Wikipedia relies on secondary sources for individual statements within an article; however, it has no mechanism for evaluating (how the myriad available secondary sources are combined to create) the balance, the overview, or the perspective of the article other than reliable tertiary sources. These include not only other encyclopedias, but also textbooks, and survey articles in scholarly journals. Unfortunately, there are no textbooks (published in the last 25 years) on the subject of "caste" in all its contexts. There are plenty of textbooks about "Caste in India," but they obviously cannot be used to evaluate the historical/geographical balance of this article. Similarly, there are no contemporary surveys (in scholarly journals) on the topic of "caste" in all its contexts (without reference to geography). That leaves encyclopedias. These, as I have already shown you, are unanimously agreed on emphasizing the context of India (and Hindu India) in the general notion of "caste;" and these spend most of their contents discussing India. You will note that I have listed only encyclopedias that do not restrict their geographical contexts. There are, of course, dozens of encyclopedias about specific geographical contexts, such as Encyclopedia of Hinduism (which has an article, "caste," that discusses caste in Hinduism), Encyclopedia of African-American History (which has an article on "occupational castes" in some West African ethnic groups), Encyclopedia of Sri Lanka (which has an article, "caste," that discusses caste in Sri Lanka) and so forth. But these we cannot use for evaluating geographical emphasis within this article. That, clearly, also rules of Encyclopedia of Africa you have mentioned.

(b) The article Caste is the flagship article for all caste-related issues. "Caste in India" is a sub-topic of "Caste;" consequently, the Caste system in India is a sub-article of Caste. There are other sub-articles, such as Caste system (Sri Lanka), Caste system in Africa, Caste system among South Asian Muslims, and so forth. If you are suggesting that the Caste article is about the notion of "caste" in the abstract, then move the contents of this article to Caste (Concept) or Caste (Sociology), but the article Caste has to be in overall perspective what the predominance of tertiary sources have emphasized it to be. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

My response follows. It is longer than I feel necessary to reach consensus, because you have not answered some of my questions. I will try to keep this short.

I have over 20 tertiary sources that show there is no ‘unanimous agreement’ you claim, but ‘frequently contested’ coverage. Of these 20+, I include a few that are relatively more cited, more circulated; my aim is to focus our attention to what constitutes commonly accepted mainstream scholarship. Do note, tertiary sources are not anywhere near as cited as some secondary sources already in this article.

Many of user Fowler&fowler sources seem to be cut-and-paste of internet commercial websites such as encyclopedia dot com. My sources are based on the full, hardcopy print version. I encourage you to verify my citations below, but do so by locating the hard copy version (there are differences between online and print versions).

I have focussed primarily on contemporary/postmodern tertiary works. Since this talk page discussion may be reviewed by future editors years from now, in their attempts to improve the quality and keep this article current, I include two summaries published between 1911 - 1951 as well, and a dictionary claimed by some to the most trusted authority on the English language in America. I have also skipped 2010 edition of Encyclopedia of Africa etc. which are already mentioned above, and must also be considered.

After citing a few sources, I shall summarize what these added evidence mean in context of wikipedia’s content sourcing guidelines and this article.

ApostleVonColorado’s contemporary and 20th century tertiary sources

The LEAD from more cited, more referred to tertiary sources on caste.

1. International Encyclopedia of the Social and Behavioral Sciences, Smelser and Baltes (Editors), ISBN: 0-08-043076-7, Volume 3, 2001 Caste The career of caste as an anthropological concept provides a fascinating terrain on which to examine how anthropological objects come to be invented and stabilized, and the relation they bear to patterns of sociality, needs of government, and production of knowledge. Many textbooks in sociology and social anthropology represent caste as fundamental institution of Indian society....(...) This textbook picture of the caste system, though influential, has come under serious scrutiny in recent years as being not only ahistorical but also ignoring the power axis in the production of social science concepts. Notes: This encyclopedia is the most cited/referred to in social and behavioral sciences. 2. Encyclopedia of Sociology, Borgatta & Montgomery (Editors), ISBN: 0-02-864853-6, Volume 1, 2000 Caste and Inherited Status The study of social inequalities is one of the most important areas of sociology as inequalities in property, power, and prestige have long term consequences on access to the basic necessities of life. [...] All societies in the world are socially stratified. However, they vary in the ways in which inequality is structured. One of the most frequent used bases for categorizing different forms of stratification systems is the way status is acquired. [...] Sociologists who study stratification use the idea of ascribed and achieved status to contrast caste systems and class systems. In class systems, [...] at least in theory, allows individual mobility that is not possible in caste systems. In caste systems a person’s social position is determined by birth, and social intercourse outside one’s caste is prohibited. The term caste itself is often used to denote large scale kinship groups that are hierarchically organized within a rigid system of stratification. Caste systems are to be found among the Hindus in India and among societies where groups are ranked and closed as in South Africa during the apartheid period. Notes: The first four lead paragraphs focus on the worldwide concept of caste. India and South Africa are mentioned in the fourth para. The coverage is 5.5 columns on India, and 3.25 columns on non-Indian intro and castes worldwide. 3. Encyclopedia of Developing World, Thomas Leonard (Editor), ISBN: 1-57958-388-1, Volume 1, 2006 Caste Systems Caste is an age-old institution, evolved through several centuries. As a system of stratification, it has existed in many parts of the world and is being practiced today in some countries. Notes: After this generic lead, the article mentions India, then goes on in the next 4 paragraphs to describe caste in generic terms. The article thereafter covers India, Algeria, South Africa, Burma, Japan, Kenya, Somalia, Rwanda, Nigeria, Jews and Gypsies of Europe (with a minor note), Egypt. Please note that the literature and coverage about African, East Asian and European human beings is as relevant, important, significant as about human beings from any South Asian nation. 4. Encyclopedia of World Cultures, David Levinson(Editor), ISBN:0-8161-1815-9, Volume 9, 1995 Social Organization - Caste Wolof society is characterized by a relatively rigid, complex system of social stratification. This system consists of a series of hierarchically ranked social groups. In the literature, these groups are usually called castes, or less frequently as social classes. Notes: This source does not have a separate article on caste, rather the topic caste is split into independent sections/articles for each culture/people. It covers caste in many parts of Africa, Latin America, East Europe, Middle East, South Asia, Southeast Asia, etc. 5. Latin America - An Encyclopedia, Tenenbaum (Editor), ISBN:0-684-80576-6, Volume 1, 1999 COLONIAL LATIN AMERICA Colonial society developed as a caste system based on race. At the top of the social ladder were....[...] Notes: This encyclopedia describes castes in many pages, makes no mention of India. Not surprising though, because it is an encyclopedia on Latin America. Please note that the literature and coverage about Latin American human beings is as relevant, important, significant as about human beings from any South Asian nation. 6. Merriam-Webster’s 3rd New International Dictionary, Philip Gove(Editor), Published in the USA, 1993 Caste\‘Kast n -s caste race, breed, lineage fr. casta, fem. of casto / chaste 1. race, stock or breed of men 2. one of the hereditary classes into which the society of India is divided, see Varna 3. a division or class of society comprised of persons within a separate and exclusive order based variously upon differences of wealth, inherited rank or privilege, profession, occupation 4. a system of social stratification more rigid than a class and characterized by hereditary status, endogamy and social barriers rigidly sanctioned by custom, law or religion 5. (skip definition of caste in insects) Notes: I skipped stuff (the skipped stuff from definitions 1, 3, and 4 have nothing to do with India; they are generic definition of concept, worldwide usage.) 7. Encyclopedia Americana, A.H. MacDonald (Editor), Library of Congress ID: AE5.E333, the lead below is in 1921, 1946, 1953 and 1977 prints CASTE, a social class whose burdens and privileges are hereditary. The word is derived from the Portuguese casta, race and was applied by the Portuguese, who became familiar with Hindustan, to the classes in India whose occupations, privileges and duties are hereditary. This term is sometimes applied to the hereditary classes in Europe; and we speak of the spirit or the prerogatives and usurpations of a caste, to express particularly that unnatural constitution of society, which makes distinction dependent on the accidents of birth or fortune. The division into castes, where it appears in its most typical form, comes to us from a period to which the light of history does not extend; hence its origin cannot be clearly traced: but it is highly probable that, wherever it exists, it was originally grounded on a difference of descent, and in the modes of living, and that the separate castes were originally separate races of people. This institution, is found among many nations. Notes: There are subtle changes between each print over 120+ years (starting 1851), even though the editors and scholars revising the article changed over this time. The generic worldwide treatment of the concept caste, remained intact). 8. Encyclopedia Britannica, 1911 print CASTE (through the Fr. from Span, and Port, casta, lineage, Lat. castus, pure). There are not many forms of social organization on a large scale to which the name "caste" has not been applied in a good or in a bad sense. Its Portuguese origin simply suggests the idea of family; but before the word came to be extensively used in modern European languages, it had been for some time identified with the Brahmanic division of Hindu society into classes. The corresponding Hindu word is varna, or colour, and the words gati, kula, gotra, pravara and karana are also used with different shades of meaning. Wherever, therefore, a writer has seen something which reminds him of any part of the extremely indeterminate notion, Indian caste, he has used the word, without regard to any particular age, race, locality or set of social institutions. Thus Palgrave maintains that the colleges of operatives, which inscriptions prove to have existed in Britain during the Roman period, were practically castes, because by the Theodosian code the son was compelled to follow the father's employment, and marriage into a family involved adoption of the family employment. But these collegia opificum seem to be just the forerunners of the voluntary associations for the regulation of industry and trade, the frith-gilds, and craft-gilds of later times, in which, no doubt, sons had great advantages as apprentices, but which admitted qualified strangers, and for which intermarriage was a matter of social feeling. The history of the formation of gilds shows, in fact, that they were really protests against the authoritative regulation of life from without and above. [...delete for brevity (deleted material has nothing on or about India)...] There is no doubt that at some time or other professions were in most countries hereditary. Thus Prescott tells us that in Peru, notwithstanding the general rule that every man should make himself acquainted with the various arts, "there were certain individuals carefully trained to those occupations which minister to the wants of the more opulent classes. These occupations, like every other calling and office in Peru, always descended from father to son. The division of castes was in this particular as precise as that which existed in Hindustan or Egypt." Again, Zurita says that in Mexico no one could carry on trade except by right of inheritance, or by public permission. The Fiji carpenters form a separate caste, and in the Tonga Islands all the trades, except tattoo-markers, barbers and club-carvers are hereditary,—the separate classes being named matabooles, mooas and tooas. Nothing is more natural than that a father should teach his son his handicraft, especially if there be no organized system of public instruction; it gives the father help at a cheap rate, it is the easiest introduction to life for the son, and the custom or reputation of the father as a craftsman is often the most important legacy he has to leave. [...deleted for brevity...] In Madagascar marriage is strictly forbidden between the four classes of Nobles, Hovas, Zarahovas and Andevos,—the lowest of whom, however, are apparently mere slaves. In a sense slavery might be called the lowest of castes, because in most of its forms it does permit some small customary rights to the slave. In a sense, too, the survival in European royalty of the idea of "equality of birth" (Ebenbürtigkeit) is that of a caste conception, and the marriage of one of the members of a European royal family with a person not of royal blood might be described as an infraction of caste rule. Notes: In the long lead, the first 1000 words, India/Hindu is mentioned first, its emphasis is similar to other countries/religions; the coverage exclusively to India in number of words is 2.5% of the 1000 words total of the lead. I have used the 1911 version because copyright has expired. The later editions, for many decades, for which copyright hasn't expired are similar.

The above shows overwhelming differences in content and style between tertiary sources. Some ignore India on the subject of caste, some treat India as a mere example of many, some ignore the world and cover just India alleging India is unique in this matter, without showing how?, without explaining why African/other authors are wrong when they publish in peer reviewed journals that castes - hereditary, hierarchical, ritual pollution driven, rebirth believing, local religion inspired, endogamous, closed systems - were and are present in Africa/outside India. Furthermore, one tertiary source you cited strangely asserts India is unique (ISBN: 1-57958-388-1), nevertheless hurriedly add examples of caste in other parts of the world. FWIW, American tertiary sources, in my interpretation, have a more global view on the subject of caste; Some British/Indian tertiary sources (by British/Indian authors) have an India-obsessed coverage of caste (except some, such as the various print editions of Encyclopedia Britannica between 1911 to mid 20th century).

Who is right, I don’t know, nor does anyone else. For wikipedia, this does not matter. We must, to the best of our ability, summarize all sides. Wikipedia, an encyclopedia for the world, must cherish and summarize the global view from reliable secondary sources. User Fowler&fowler acknowledges there are many encyclopedias that have caste articles with regional focus, then asserts 'But these we cannot use for evaluating geographical emphasis within this article.' Why? In addition, identify any wikipedia guideline that suggests we must ignore all reliable literature from 190+ other countries, and use your favorite country-focussed literature. We do not need Caste (concept) article or such content forks. I counter that if you wish to see India-dominated coverage of the topic of caste, please go to Varna or Caste system in India.

Given this conflict and differences between tertiary sources, where should the emphasis be? I submit this should be carefully reflected upon, not rushed. Bayly, which you and some tertiary sources you included cite, has felt compelled to note that castes exist outside India and those are outside the scope of her book. If you go by citation index, number of citations, extent of coverage, commonly accepted mainstream scholarship, then the sources I have cited, today and over last few days, score substantially higher, when we study literature that includes India with rest of the world. In African literature, in Latin American literature, in East Asian literature, my sources are predominant - it would be WP:FRINGE to assert caste system did not or do not exist in Africa, Latin America, Korea, Japan, etc. Similarly, in reliable secondary sources in anthropology, in history of the concept of caste, and in similar fields, my sources are far far more cited and respected than those you mention.

I disagree that wikipedia should measure itself against latest tertiary sources for this article, or that it should focus and summarize the latest content of some tabloid-like source, or ignore the history of publications in reliable sources within the last 25-100 years. Caste and similar socio-cultural phenomena did not erupt in last few years. There is a history behind these. History is important, it is part and essence of context. History is the root that nurtures our emotional knowledge.

It must also be noted that encyclopedias have evolved (see 1851 and 1953 version of Encyclopedia Americana on the topic of caste, for example). Encyclopedias can and have differed significantly in their emphasis on the topic of caste, while they were published concurrently (e.g. see encyclopedias published in early 1900s on topic of caste). The editors of encyclopedias printed a 100 years ago did not try to fit in or copy each other. Wikipedia should not strive to fit in and repeat what commercial, advertisement supported 4 paragraph tabloid encyclopedias on internet are offering as content. Wikipedia must strive to discover and summarize, where possible, the most respected and reliable published secondary sources. There is nothing wrong or suspicious in refusing to fit in, in being different and independent.

The current article on caste (August 7 2012 version) mentions India first, mentions India twice in the lead. This flagship article already has wiki links to main independent exclusive article on caste system in India. Given that wikipedia has a family of articles on caste, there is no need to delete/ignore the rest of the world, and replace the content of this article with overwhelming or major focus on India.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 19:25, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid your list is both misleading and disingenuous. I have Veena Das's article on Caste in the International Encyclopedia of Social and Behavioral Sciences (your first tertiary reference) sitting right in front of me. The entire article is about caste in India!! Where does it mention anything about caste in other parts of the world?? All the 17 references in the article (Louis Dumont, Kim Marriot, MN Srinivas, GS Ghurye, Andre Beteille, ...) are to scholars who have worked on caste in India! She might have her disagreements with previous scholars on the subject of caste, but the article is about caste in India (and nowhere else). I have already provide the link to Leonard, Thomas M. (editor) (2006), "Caste systems", Encyclopedia of the Developing World, Taylor & Francis, pp. 252–, ISBN 978-0-415-97662-6, retrieved 5 August 2012 {{citation}}: |first= has generic name (help), my 10th reference and your third. Here is the lead again:

CASTE SYSTEMS Caste is an age-old institution, evoked through several centuries. As a system of stratification, it has existed in many parts of the world and is being practiced today in some countries. But the caste system of closed endogamous descent groups as prevalent and practiced in India is not found elsewhere (Bayly 2010; Kolenda 1984). Caste is a well-entrenched phenomenon in countries like India. ...

Here, as in other quotes in your list, you stop just short of the first mention of India; in other words you quote only the first two sentences. You then summarize the article in your "Notes" as: "After this generic lead (emphasis added), the article mentions India, then goes on in the next 4 paragraphs to describe caste in generic terms. The article thereafter covers India, Algeria, South Africa, Burma, Japan, Kenya, Somalia, Rwanda, Nigeria, Jews and Gypsies of Europe (with a minor note), Egypt." Well, the lead is "generic" because you have halved it, removing mention of India in the next two sentences (plainly to be seen by anyone who clicks on the link)!! By the way, it's not the next 4 paragraphs, but only the next 3. What you fail to mention is that two-thirds of the article (the next 11 paragraphs) are devoted to India!! Over and over again, you have attempted to distort the quotes themselves using ellipses when there is mention of India. These you have mixed with old, obscure, citations from hundred year old encyclopedias. I'm not sure what is the point of your rambling comment on Encyclopedia Americana when I had already provided the link to its 1918 entry on "caste". Anyone can directly see that three-quarters of the article is about India. As for the modern Encyclopedia Americana (2006 edition), here is its lead:

Encyclopedia Americana, 2006, Volume 5, page 775: CASTE is a largely static, exclusive social class, membership in which is determined by birth and involves particular customary restrictions and privileges. The word derives from the Portuguese casta, meaning "breed," "race," or "kind," and was first used to denote the Hindu social classification on the Indian subcontinent. While this remains the basic connotation (emphasis added), the word "caste" is also used to describe in whole or in part social systems that emerged at various times in other parts of the world. Generally castes are organized, with a chief and a council acting in concerted authority. Often united in the celebration of certain festivals, the members of a caste are further bound by common occupation and by common customs relating particularly to marriage, food, and questions of pollution by members of lower castes. .... (ellipses represent a few sentences of definition. The next section with many subsections is about India.) (Section) Castes in India—Organizational Structure Among the Hindus. According to some estimates, there are more than 3000 castes on the the Indian subcontinent, greatly varying in size from a few score members to millions. Originally there were only ....

Nowhere have I said that this article should be about India only. However, I am saying that the major emphasis needs to be on India, which it currently is not. The Wikipedia article on caste perfunctorily mentions India here and there. There needs to be essential discussion of India, and Hindu India in particular, as there is in all other tertiary sources. You cannot have the sections on the caste systems in China, Tibet, Korea, West Africa, and England, be each longer than the one on the caste system India, even if the India section has its own longer parent article!! When we write a flagship article such as this in WP:SUMMARY STYLE, we cannot push essential discussion of India into the subarticle Caste system in India. This article currently focuses on caste outside India, and has thereby become a POV fork. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:03, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. I clicked on Caste, and there too the lead is what I quoted. Generic.

One of us is misunderstanding the WP:SUMMARY STYLE guidelines. I submit the current article follows this guideline, which reads: A fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own. The original article should contain a section with a summary of the subtopic's article as well as a link to it. Again in Basic Technique, the guideline suggests: Ideally many of these sections will eventually provide summaries of separate articles on the subtopics covered in those sections.

In this article, some sections - such as one on China - are longer because there is no dedicated separate article for those sections/sub-sections. India is a shorter summary as it has an independent separate article of its own. Any interested wiki reader has all the access and necessary links.

The same format is in the World War II example described in WP:SUMMARY STYLE. Certain sections are short in World War II - e.g. World War II#Japanese invasion of China, with far more details in the linked independent article. This article follows a same format, per the WP:SUMMARY STYLE guidelines.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 20:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

You disagree? What you have clicked on is not the lead; it is the abstract. The actual lead is even more generic, but that is because the Indian context in the article is understood. Like I said, find me a sentence in the article that mentions any society other than India. It is after all the emphasis of the entire article we are concerned about. Veena Das's article is, in its entirety, about the Cast system in India. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

If the articles on caste in China, Korea, etc., do not have parents articles, then create a parent article Caste beyond South Asia (or some such name), include the details there, and summarize that article's content in a section "Cast beyond South Asia" here. The emphasis on India has to be paramount here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:26, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I am delighted by your admission that the 'actual lead is even more generic'. You may assume whatever implicit context you understand or misunderstand, it is none of my concern. This talk page's purpose is to help reach consensus, not to debate or lecture me or anyone else on socio-cultural phenomena topics such as caste. I do not want to repeat my disagreements with you - just read my discussion on leads in various tertiary sources and various prints of same publication from 100 years ago to recent years. I do not want to debate Veena Das, student of M.N. Srinivas - both of whom are Indians known for voluntarily limiting their publications to caste system in India.

As before, I welcome clarifications and suggestions to help reach consensus. Perhaps you can clarify what other summary paragraph(s) you want to add from Caste system in India, that would improve this article. I am open to expanding the summary on India. I insist, however, we respect WP:SUMMARY guidelines on including just a summary, rather than cutting and pasting that independent article into this article.

I do not like the 'Caste beyond South Asia'; or based on your 'India has to be paramount' note, perhaps a 'Caste beyond India' suggestion. It is a bad idea because no wiki guidelines encourage that approach, WP:CFORK and WP:SUMMARY discourage it, and because it would also be an implicit WP:UNDUE bias and disrespect for thousands of reliable secondary sources worldwide and to ethnic group-specific scholarship on caste in English language publications.

We must follow wikpedia guidelines on how and when to split this article. You can find some on WP:SS. For what it is worth, at this point, I feel most sections that should be split have already been split by wiki contributors other than me (e.g. Cagots, Caste system in India, Nepalese caste system, etc.). If anything, wiki has stubs such as Priestly caste that need to deleted/merged into this article.

If you can identify which non-India caste section is already covered elsewhere in wikipedia, I would welcome changing revising that section/sub-section with a summary, to help trim this article.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Let me suggest very bluntly that you not try to have the last word on everything. Otherwise, no consensus will be reached here and I will simply take it to another, bigger forum. You were clearly wrong in your characterization of the Veena Das article, which you had not even read, and you've been making far-fetched points about the British-Indian bias in many tertiary sources, providing us with 160 year-old quotes from Encyclopedia Americana, but not realizing that the Americana (2006) article on caste itself devotes most of its space to India. There is a limit to the patience of people who try to present the best available tertiary sources here. After all, I have not made a single content-related edit to the article during this time.

I will make edits to the article in the coming weeks, as and when I find time. We can then discuss the issues again. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:15, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome to initiate WP:DR. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 23:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler writes, "... I will simply take it to another, bigger forum. You were clearly wrong in your characterization of the Veena Das article, which you had not even read..."

Please stop alleging nonsense such as 'which you have not even read...'. You are making false accusations, being uncivil, and are violating WP:TPG guidelines.

I have changed some of your edit today to this article, because your sources were mostly poorly written tertiary sources and one article was Tanjore-village focussed publication. Your changes are in dispute, inconsistent with peer reviewed secondary sources, do not meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP and wiki content sourcing guidelines.

As I noted yesterday, before you began editing today, please do take this to bigger forum and dispute resolution process. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 13:18, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but you can't by perfunctorily quoting Wikipedia guidelines to a longstanding editor (who knows the spirit of the guidelines, not just the letter), stuff biased nonsense into the article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:24, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Since I subscribe to 1RR, I won't revert, but be warned that caste-related articles now fall under discretionary sanctions. Edit-warring is not the way out, neither are long, verbose, obfuscating posts you have been making above. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

As for "poorly written tertiary sources," it was the same tertiary source, Haviland et al, that you have already cited in the lead! Beteille's definition is widely-used and turns up in various tertiary accounts of caste. Tertiary sources, by the way, are acceptable in the lead since they summarize a wide variety of source, just as the lead does. Otherwise, given the thousands of secondary sources available on "caste," we could never arrive at a consensus on what goes in the article or its summary. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

As for the spurious implication in your Caste edit summary that "Tanjore village focussed (sic) study" is reason for excluding Beteille's definition of caste, here is Scott, John; Marshall, Gordon (2005), "caste", Oxford Dictionary of Sociology, Oxford University Press, p. 66, ISBN 978-0-19-860987-2, retrieved 10 August 2012

caste An institution of considerable internal complexity, which has been over-simplified by those seeking an ideal type of rigid hierarchical social stratification, based on extreme closure criteria. In Max Weber's writings it was synonymous with ethnic status stratification and constituted one end of the continuum which contrasted status honour stratification with commercial classes and the market. Possibly the clearest definition is that proffered by André Béteille, who describes a caste as 'a small and named group of persons characterized by endogamy, hereditary membership and a specific style of life which sometimes includes the pursuit by tradition of a particular occupation and is usually associated with a more or less distinct ritual status in a hierarchical system, based on concepts of purity and pollution' (Caste, Class and Power, 1965). Caste is especially important in the lives of Indian Hindus, for whom its basis is the traditional idea of the five varna: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra, and Untouchable. ....

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Edits by user@ 117.205.129.69 - on British manipulation of history/caste

The user@ 117.205.129.69 has been trying to add the following two parts to this article on caste, without any verifiable support -

• The British for reasons best known to themselves, and therefore, eventually the rest of the world have not only accepted this manipulation of history, but have earnestly perpetuated it.

• South Asian society has consisted of thousands of castes called Jatis since ancient times. The Brahmins (more correctly Brahmans), who were a small and politically marginal community, became powerful during the British colonial period, and seem to have convinced the colonial masters to adopt their own theoretical view of the society as the only correct one. According to this view, which had no basis in reality at any time during India's long history...

I reverted this once because the above is neither supported nor balanced/neutral. The user is requested to identify and include a reliable source for these viewpoints per WP:VNT and WP:RS guidelines.

The user is welcome here, and I will be glad to read/discuss/help summarize any reliable source that inspires him or her to those claims. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 03:55, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler's 30 tertiary sources published within the last 25 years on the subject of "caste" and of the centrality of India, especially Hindu India, in it

30 tertiary sources

Wikipedia uses secondary sources for details, but tertiary sources for determining emphasis within an article. Oxford English Dictionary ("caste, n.", Oxford English Dictionary, Second edition; online version June 2012, Oxford University Press, 1989, retrieved 05 August 2012 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)) caste, n. 2a. spec. One of the several hereditary classes into which society in India has from time immemorial been divided; ... This is now the leading sense, which influences all others. Webster's Unabridged Dictionary ("caste", Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged, Merriam-Webster, 2002, retrieved 5 August 2012). caste n. 1 obsolete : .... 2 : one of the hereditary classes into which the society of India is divided in accordance with a system fundamental in Hinduism, reaching back into distant antiquity, .... Barnard, Alan (2002), Encyclopedia of Social and Cultural Anthropology, Taylor & Francis, pp. 136–137, ISBN 978-0-415-28558-2 Caste: Caste has been described as the fundamental social institution of India. Sometimes the term is used metaphorically to refer to rigid social distinctions or extreme social exclusiveness wherever found, and some authorities have used the term 'colour-caste system' to describe the stratification based on race in the United States and elsewhere. But it is among the Hindus in India that we find the system in its most fully developed form, ... Kuper, Adam; Kuper, Jessica (2003), Social Science Encyclopedia, Taylor & Francis, p. 131, ISBN 978-0-415-28560-5 Caste systems have been defined in the most general terms as systems of hierarchically ordered endogamous units in which membership is hereditary and permanent (e.g. Berreman 1960). On such a definition a whole range of rigidly stratified societies would be characterized by caste—Japan, for example, or certain Polynesian and East African societies, or the racially divided world of the American Deep South. Hindu India is generally taken as the paradigmatic example. Many scholars would argue, however, that the difference between this case and the others are far more significant than the similarities, and that the term caste should properly be applied only to this context. ... Madan, T. N.; Editors (2012), caste, Encyclopæida Britannica Online {{citation}}: |last2= has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |fist2= (help) caste, any of the ranked, hereditary, endogamous social groups, often linked with occupation, that together constitute traditional societies in South Asia, particularly among Hindus in India. Although sometimes used to designate similar groups in other societies, the “caste system” is uniquely developed in Hindu societies. "caste", Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th edition, 2012 caste [Port., casta=basket], ranked groups based on heredity within rigid systems of social stratification, especially those that constitute Hindu India. Some scholars, in fact, deny that true caste systems are found outside India. ... "Caste", International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, 2008 Caste: Nearly all societies have had some form of social stratification, whether ascriptive or achieved, based on race, class, religion, ethnicity, language, education, or occupation. The Hindu ascriptive caste system in India is perhaps the most complex and rigid. It is based on birth, which determines one’s occupation (especially in contemporary rural India), and is maintained by endogamy, commensality, rituals, dietary practices, and norms of purity and pollution. The English term caste is derived from the Portuguese word casta, which refers to lineage, breed, or race. ... (The remaining sections of the article are: THE HINDU CASTE SYSTEM, CASTE IN MODERN INDIA, SOME VISIBLE CHANGES IN CASTE RELATIONS, OTHER RELIGIONS AND CASTE, CASTE OUTSIDE INDIA) O'Brien, Jodi (2008), Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, SAGE, pp. 114–117, ISBN 978-1-4129-0916-7 Caste: Caste is a form of social organization that is unique to India and is based on Hindu religious belief. This essay defines the meaning of the caste system and describes the ways in which it has been used to control sexuality, marital status, and economic and social life among women in India. .... Schaefer, Richard T. (2008), Encyclopedia of Race, Ethnicity, and Society, SAGE, pp. 246–, ISBN 978-1-4129-2694-2, retrieved 5 August 2012 Caste: What makes Indian society unique is the phenomenon of caste. Economic, religious, and linguistic differentiations, even race-based discrimination, are known elsewhere, but nowhere else does one see caste but in India (and, by extension, the subcontinent). This entry reviews the history of caste and discusses its impact on individuals and society. Leonard, Thomas M. (editor) (2006), Encyclopedia of the Developing World, Taylor & Francis, pp. 252–, ISBN 978-0-415-97662-6, retrieved 5 August 2012 {{citation}}: |first= has generic name (help) CASTE SYSTEMS Caste is an age-old institution, evoked through several centuries. As a system of stratification, it has existed in many parts of the world and is being practiced today in some countries. But the caste system of closed endogamous descent groups as prevalent and practiced in India is not found elsewhere (Bayly 2010; Kolenda 1984). Caste is a well-entrenched phenomenon in countries like India. ... "Caste", Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions, Merriam-Webster Inc, 1999-09-01, p. 459, ISBN 978-0-87779-044-0 CASTE, group of people having a specific social rank, defined generally by descent, marriage, commensality, and occupation. Although the term caste is applied to hierarchically ranked groups in many different societies around the world, the caste system in its most developed form is found in India. .... (Note: the rest of the article describes the caste system in India.) Forsyth, Tim (2004), Encyclopedia of International Development, Routledge, p. 63, ISBN 978-0-415-25342-0 Caste The jati (caste) system, which evolved during the Vedic period (1500–500 BCE), of Hinduism refers to the endogamous social groups comprising contemporary and Vedic Hindu society and the rules of behavior that govern interaction between these groups. ... (Note: after six long paragraphs on India) Finally, while caste is distinctively Indian in origin, social scientists also often use it to describe inflexible social barriers in other contexts. Christensen, Karen; Levinson, David (2003), Encyclopedia of Community: From the Village to the Virtual World, SAGE, pp. 115–, ISBN 978-0-7619-2598-9, retrieved 5 August 2012 Caste: The term caste is derived from casta, a word used by the Portuguese to describe the Hindu religious system. The caste system categorizes people into various hierarchical levels, which determine and define their social, religious, and hegemonic standings within the society. ... A classic example of the caste system is the one found in India, which has existed there for hundreds of years. Kramarae, Cheris; Spender, Dale (2000), Routledge international encyclopedia of women: global women's issues and knowledge, Taylor & Francis, pp. 142–144, ISBN 978-0-415-92088-9, retrieved 5 August 2012 Caste: Caste is a hierarchical, hegemonic ranking of social groups found predominantly on the Indian subcontinent. A word of Portuguese and Spanish origin .... Junius P. Rodriguez (1997), The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery, Volume 1, ABC-CLIO, p. 133, ISBN 978-0-87436-885-7, retrieved 5 August 2012 Caste: There is a strenuous argument among social scientists over whether the word "caste" can be used anywhere other than in referring to India. The major characteristics of India's caste system are that castes are hereditary, ranked hierarchically, religiously based, theoretically rigid, endogamous, tied to occupations, and politically supported. Additionally, there are rules of ritual purity to prevent or cleanse contamination. Note: This 1968 article is now superseded by the 2008 edition of the encyclopedia (see above): "caste", International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, 1968 Section 1: Concept of Caste (Berreman): The term “caste” has been widely used to describe ranked groups within rigid systems of social stratification and especially those which constitute the society of Hindu India. Debate over whether castes are found outside of India has intensified with increased knowledge and understanding of the Indian caste system. Among social scientists, and especially among those who have worked in India, there are basically two views: (1) that the caste system is to be defined in terms of its Hindu attributes and rationale and, therefore, is unique to India or at least to south Asia; (2) that the caste system is to be defined in terms of structural features which are found not only in Hindu India but in a number of other societies as well. Those who hold the latter view find caste groups in such widely scattered areas as the Arabian Peninsula, Polynesia, north Africa, east Africa, Guatemala, Japan, aboriginal North America, and the contemporary United States. ... Section 2: Indian Caste System (Mayer): The term “caste” is used to designate each unit in the hierarchically arranged organic systems of closed groups to be found on the Indian subcontinent. Besides this, it has been applied to the classical division of Hindu society and to systems of ranked and closed populations found outside India. ... Nanda, Serena; Warms, Richard L. (2010), Cultural Anthropology, Cengage Learning, pp. 282–, ISBN 978-0-495-81083-4, retrieved 10 August 2012 Caste systems exist in various cultures; in many West African societies blacksmiths, praise-singers, and leather workers function as endogamous castes. In traditional European society peasants and nobility were endogamous castes and in Japan the Burakumin people, who were set apart based on their participation in "unclean" occupations, represented a caste, although they were defined in racial terms. Indeed, before the 1950s era of expanding civil rights, black/white relations in the American South also incorporated many elements of a caste system. The ascribed status of race prohibited people from intermarrying, eating together, and interacting with each other in ways very similar to those of a caste system (Dollard 1937). Most frequently however, caste is identified with India, where it is deeply and historically embedded in culture and plays a central role in social stratification. Caste system in India The unique elements of the Indian caste system are its complexity ... Eller, Jack David (2009), Cultural Anthropology: Global Forces, Local Lives, Taylor & Francis, pp. 203–204, ISBN 978-0-415-48538-8, retrieved 11 August 2012 The best-known closed or caste system is that of India, in which caste membership is ascribed at birth. It would not be quite correct to say that membership is ascribed "by" birth, although usually one belongs to the caste of one's parents. However, you are not in your caste because you are born to certain parents: rather, you are born to certain parents because you are in your caste. Castes, or jatis, represent a combination of economic, kinship, political, and religious elements. You do share your caste with your kin and most immediately inherit it from them. Your occupation or economic contribution is also defined by caste: castes are, in fact, occupational groups. Beals (1980) reports that Gopalpur had fifty different jatis resident in or passing through the village, each with its own role, including priest, farmer, blacksmith, salt-maker, barber, butcher, stoneworker, leatherworker, and so on. While these were clearly economic roles, he notes that there was no direct correlation between the wealth of an individual or group and his or her or its caste: any person in any jati might be rich or poor, and there were as many rich shepherds and farmers as there were rich priests in the village. Rather, the defining feature of a jati was its spiritual condition — its ritual purity and spiritual cleanliness. Humans who were "purer" as a result of behaviors in their past lives were born into higher jatis, and those who were more "impure" were born into lower ones. The lowest castes did the dirtiest work, including handling dead (animal and human) bodies and other unclean substances. ... Lewis, I. M. (1985 (reprinted 2003)), Social & Cultural Anthropology in Perspective, Cambridge University Press (reprinted by Transaction Publishers), pp. 190–191, ISBN 978-0-7658-0986-5, retrieved 10 August 2012 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) The immense potential for social differentiation which economic specialization offers is nowhere more logically or elaborately realized than in the Indian caste system. Unlike the situation in Rwanda and many other stratified societies where power is held by a minority, here, despite considerable regional variations, the high castes and their numerous sub-divisions are generally in the majority. Partly for this reason, and because of its very distinctive cultural (and especially ritual) features, and the way in which hierarchy is assumed to be the natural order of things, many scholars insist that caste is uniquely Indian and Hindu, and does not exist elsewhere. The same, of course, can be said of any social institution. But whether we accept this parochial view or not (and we shall return to the issue later), the fact is that over three hundred million Hindus see human society as a composite structure of five interlocking but rigidly demarcated divisions. Morris, Mike (27 March 2012), "caste", Concise Dictionary of Social and Cultural Anthropology, John Wiley & Sons, p. 33, ISBN 978-1-4443-3209-4, retrieved 10 August 2012 caste. The hereditary and hierarchical (see HIERARCHY) division Of SOCIETY in (usually) India, associated there with Hinduism. Members of a caste share the same profession and STATUS and traditionally avoid physical contact with members of other castes. Subdivisions of castes ("jatis") are linked to particular obligations and rights (the "jajmani" system). Anthropologists disagree on whether caste should be read in ways similar to SOCIAL STRUCTURES outside India or as something unique. The nature of jajmani conventions has also been disputed. The word "caste" derives from Spanish and Portuguese, casta ("race"). (Further reading: Dumont (1980); Beteille (1996).) Scott, John; Marshall, Gordon (2005), "caste", A Dictionary of Sociology, Oxford University Press, p. 66, ISBN 978-0-19-860987-2, retrieved 10 August 2012 caste An institution of considerable internal complexity, which has been over-simplified by those seeking an ideal type of rigid hierarchical social stratification, based on extreme closure criteria. In Max Weber's writings it was synonymous with ethnic status stratification and constituted one end of the continuum which contrasted status honour stratification with commercial classes and the market. Possibly the clearest definition is that proffered by André Béteille, who describes a caste as 'a small and named group of persons characterized by endogamy, hereditary membership and a specific style of life which sometimes includes the pursuit by tradition of a particular occupation and is usually associated with a more or less distinct ritual status in a hierarchical system, based on concepts of purity and pollution' (Caste, Class and Power, 1965). Caste is especially important in the lives of Indian Hindus, for whom its basis is the traditional idea of the five varna: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra, and Untouchable. Within each vama there are myriad jati, which are small endogamous .... Abercrombie, Nicholas; Hill, Stephen; Turner, Bryan S. (2006-02-28), "caste", The Penguin dictionary of sociology, Penguin, p. 46, ISBN 978-0-14-101375-6 caste A caste system is a form of social STRATIFICATION in which castes are hierarchically organized and separated from each other by rules of ritual purity. The lowest strata of the caste system are referred to as 'untouchables', because they are excluded from the performance of rituals which confer religious purity. In this hierarchical system, each caste is ritually purer than the one below it. The caste system is an illustration of SOCIAL CLOSURE in which access to wealth and prestige is closed to social groups which are excluded from the performance of purifying rituals. This ritual segregation is further reinforced by rules of ENDOGAMY. In Max Weber's study of India (1958a), caste represented an important illustration of social ranking by prestige and formed part of a wider interest in pariah groups. ... There is considerable debate as to whether the caste system is specific to Hindu culture, or whether its principal features are more widely found in other societies where hierarchically organized, endogamous strata are present. In the first position, caste cannot be defined independently of 'caste system', which is specific to classical Hindu society. In the second argument, the term caste is extended to embrace the stratification of ethnic groups, for example in the southern states of the USA. While the Hindu caste system is organized in terms of four major castes (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra) there is considerable diversity at the local, village level .... Lawson, Tony (2001), "caste", Dictionary of Sociology, Taylor & Francis, p. 25, ISBN 978-1-57958-291-3, retrieved 10 August 2012 caste: a social class within the stratification system of India. The system is based on four traditional groups organized in a hierarchy and originally based on an occupational classification. The system is now hereditary, with caste being determined at birth by parents' caste membership, and cannot be changed during a lifetime. The system is a complicated one with the four main castes being subdivided into thousands of "jati," or subcastes. The four main castes from top to bottom are: 1. Brahmin: 2. Kshatriyas: 3. Vaishyas; 4. Sudras. Standing below the castes are the Harijan. who are literally "out-caste" and who occupy a position in society that makes them the object of much discrimination. Mitchell, Geoffrey Duncan (1 October 2006), "Castes", A New Dictionary of the Social Sciences, Transaction Publishers, pp. 194–195, ISBN 978-0-202-30878-4, retrieved 10 August 2012 Castes A pure caste system is rooted in the religious order and may be thought of as a hierarchy of hereditary, endogamous, occupational groups with positions fixed and mobility barred by ritual distances between each caste. Empirically, the classical Hindu system of India approximated most closely to pure caste. The system existed for some 3,000 years and continues today despite many attempts to get rid of some of its restrictions. It is essentially connected with Hinduism. In theory all Hindus belong to one of four main groups, denoted by a colour, these were originally in order of precedence the Kshatriyas (a warrior group), the Brahmans (a priestly group), the Vaishyas (trading and manufacturing people) and the Sudras (servants and slaves). These are all mentioned in the Hindu writings of the sixth century B.C. Later the Brahmans replaced the Kshatriyas in the prime position. Outside these four main castes there are over fifty million so-called 'outcastes' but of course these too are part of the caste system, sharing the dominant beliefs about ritual pollution they are among the least privileged and their occupations are among the least esteemed, e.g. those of the tanner or the washerman. ... For its members, a caste system is a coherent and comprehensive system of allocating ritualistic functions on the basis of a ritualistic social order to which all subscribe. It is precisely on this score that to apply the concept of caste to the social stratification of slave-states of North America is both inaccurate and misleading. Here the deep and entrenched social divisions between the white and coloured populations, although, as in contemporary South Africa, given the veneer of religious sanction, arise not from allocation of differential functions in a ritual order but from allocation of menial tasks to men of distinct colour. Winthrop, Robert H. (1991), Dictionary of Concepts in Cultural Anthropology, ABC-CLIO, pp. 27–30, ISBN 978-0-313-24280-9, retrieved 10 August 2012 CASTE 1. An explicitly hierarchical social system based on hereditary, endogamous groups, in which each is characterized by a specific status, occupation, mode of life, and pattern of customary interactions with other such groups. 2. One of the endogamous units of such a system. Caste is one of a number of terms (cf. order, estate, class) denoting a ranked segment of society. Although caste is used primarily with reference to India, it is a European term, applied (at least originally) by Europeans to the analysis of Hindu life. ... The following analysis will consider caste primarily as an Indian phenomenon, with some attention also given to the relevance of caste as a cross-cultural category. In the Hindu perspective, society is of necessity highly differentiated; there is a PATTERN of behavior appropriate to each caste and stage of life. ... (New Section) Caste in India ... (New Section) Theories of Caste Anthropological debate regarding the caste concept has been dominated by two related questions: (1) What principles determine caste ranking? and (2) Is caste a cross-cultural phenomenon, or is it limited to the South Asian CULTURE AREA? ... whether caste phenomena can be found entirely outside the South Asian culture sphere remains a fundamental point of controversy (see Bartlett et al. 1976; Berreman 1968; see also INEQUALITY). Lindholm, Charles (1998), "caste, caste societies", in Thomas Barfield (ed.), The Dictionary of Anthropology, Wiley, pp. 50–51, ISBN 978-1-57718-057-9 caste, caste societies: In a caste society groups of persons engaged in specific occupations or with specific characteristics are ranked hierarchically. These ranks are ostensibly based on the degree of pollution incurred by work at the caste specialty or by other group characteristics, and one's position in the caste scale may be regarded as a reward or punishment for spiritual attainments (see PURITY/POLLUTION). India is the most famous (some say the only) caste society. There caste is broken into four great varnas: the "twice-born" Brahman priests, Kshatriya warriors, and Vaisiya merchants, and the "once-born" Sudra peasants. Beneath these and officially excluded from the caste system are the Untouchables (Gandhi's harijans, or "children of God," now self-designated as Dalits, or "oppressed"), who fill the most polluting occupations. Although the Brahmans are universally recognized as the least spiritually polluted caste, there is no absolute consensus as to who is on top or why. For instance, religious renunciants can make claims to special holiness either by showing extraordinary asceticism and purity, or by engaging in cannibalism and self-degradation or indulging in intoxication and excess (J. Parry 1982; Lynch 1990). Furthermore, the Kshatriya, who traditionally served as rulers, established competing axes of valuation for themselves to counterbalance the Brahmans' claims to pre-eminence (Inden 1990; Heesterman 1985). In fact, Dirks (1987) argued that the Brahmanical portrait of caste was simply a wishful fantasy of priests in a colonial atmosphere that favored the disjuncture between kingly power and religious legitimacy. Among ordinary people, however, the main competition between castes remains at a lower level of organization. All the varnas are divided into multitudinous jatis, or local, endogamous occupational groups, that constitute the varied labor force of the society. These jatis can and do contest their relative positions and attempt to rise in the ranks through what Srinivas (1962) famously called "Sanskritization': emulating the attributes of higher caste groups. Thus, an economically successful lower caste may take up less polluting occupations and habits and claim higher caste status. Whether these claims are accepted varies (F. Bailey 1957), but clearly slow upward (and downward) mobility in the caste rank of jati was far more likely prior to colonial censuses, which fixed caste positions immutably in written records. Academic definitions of caste are also not solidified, and fall into two mutually exclusive positions. The first is structural-functional and views caste as a category or type, comparable in many respects to hierarchical organizations elsewhere. In this vein, Gerald Berreman wrote that "a caste system resembles a plural society whose discrete sections all ranked vertically." (1968: 55). Indian caste therefore is analogous to social structures elsewhere in which rank is ascribed, such as American racial grading (Goethals 1961; Bujra 1971). The second school understands Indian caste as a total symbolic world, unique, self-contained, and not comparable to other systems. Most of these theorists would agree with the classic definition by Bougle, who wrote that "the spirit of caste unites these three tendencies: repulsion, hierarchy and hereditary specialization" (1971: 9); controversies are primarily over which of these aspects is stressed. Dumont, the best known of the symbolic school, based his interpretation of caste on the attributes of hierarchy and repulsion. In his book Homo hierarchicus (1970), he focused on the rigidity of caste positions at each end of the hierarchical spectrum (Brahmans and outcastes) and the radical opposition in Hindu thought between categories of power and categories of status. LEACH, on the other hand, gave first place to hereditary specialization; the diagnostic of the system, for him, was that "every caste, not merely the upper elite, has its special 'privileges" (1960a: 7). A somewhat different approach was taken by Marriott and Indcn. They postulated an indigenous monism, grounded in the assumption that in a caste society "all living beings are differentiated into genera, or classes, each of which is thought to possess a defining substance" (1974: 983). These substances, according to the theory, arc formed by various transactions, particularly exchanges of food. Marriott and Inden were then able to develop transactional flow charts that locate all different Indian groups within their paradigm. A difficulty for interpretive theory is the place of non-Hindus within a caste system. For instance, Muslims, who make up approximately 12 percent of India's population, advocate the equality of all believers and deny the validity of notions of pollution (Lindholm 1986). The problem of accommodating such nonbelievers within caste society is not merely academic, as present-day sectarian battles chillingly testify. Johnson, Allan G. (2000), "caste", The Blackwell Dictionary of Sociology: A User's Guide to Sociological Language, Wiley, p. 34, ISBN 978-0-631-21681-0, retrieved 10 August 2012 caste. A caste is a rigid category into which people arc born with no possibility of change. In some systems Of STRATIFICATION AND INEQUALITY, the distribution of rewards and resources is organized around castes. In India, the caste system historically has consisted of four basic categories - Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra - each with its own specific and rigid location in the stratification system. In addition to these, an "outcaste" of "untouchables" is beneath the lowest caste. The crossing of caste boundaries is rigidly prohibited through controls over occupational distribution and residence, and especially through control over the choice of marriage partners. Within the four major castes, there are numerous sub-castes among which a certain amount of mobility is possible. According to the Indian caste system, which is codified in the Hindu religion, people may move from one caste to another across several life-times through the process of reincarnation. Such movements depend upon successful performance in the present caste position, which means that the system provides a powerful incentive for enforcing acceptance of the caste system itself and its inequalities. Although the concept of caste is associated almost exclusively with India, elements of caste can be found in a few other societies, such as Japan during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and more recently in the United States and South Africa. Although the caste system was officially banned in India in 1949, its influence remains in rural areas. (Dated reference) Winich, Charles (1956), "caste", Dictionary of Anthropology, Citadel Press, p. 100, ISBN 978-0-8065-2919-6 caste. An hierarchical system of social control in India, with each sub-group assigned a ranked status, depending on its origin and religious strictness. In Europe, a minority group with its own culture, such as the Gypsies. In the United States, a hereditary class status, the members of which are limited in residence, job, marriage, and economic possibilities. In India, theoretically there are four castes: Brahmans, warriors, farmers and business men, and workers. When seven years old, members of the three top castes have a spiritual rebirth. In actuality, there are more than four castes. and Brahmans are not all priests. Pollution by leather and contact with the lowest group is a common religious idea, as is the idea that only persons of the same caste can eat together. Some foods are forbidden. Endogamy is the rule. Hereditary occupations for caste members are common. Nagar, Richa (2011), "caste", in Derek Gregory (ed.), The Dictionary of Human Geography, Ron Johnston, Geraldine Pratt, Michael Watts, Sarah Whatmore, John Wiley & Sons, p. 72, ISBN 978-1-4443-5995-4, retrieved 10 August 2012 caste An endogamous social hierarchy of enduring political significance, believed to have emerged some 3500 years ago around highly questionable categories of Aryans and non-Aryans in the Indian subcontinent. The former - comprising brahmart, kshatriya and vaishya - emerged as dominant occupational castes of so-called dvija (twice-born). The shudra caste(s) - regarded as non-Aryan and 'mixed' - were occupationally marginalized and racialized, as was also the case later with the `outcastes' (Dalit), whose touch was deemed polluting (Thapar, 1966). This order was challenged from the sixth century BCE, but all major religions in India came to bear the social imprint of caste. Brahman social dominance was bolstered by a British neo-Brahmanical ruling IDEOLOGY, and provoked a backlash (Bose and Jalal, 1997). Significantly, leaders such as Lohia analytically separated the high castes from women, shudra, Dalit, Muslim and adivasi ('indigenous') and underscored the political necessity of marriages between shudra and dvija, while disrupting the rift between manual and brain work, which contributed to the formation, rigidification and violence of caste. Calhoun, Craig (2002), "caste", Dictionary of the Social Sciences, Oxford University Press, p. 60, ISBN 978-0-19-512371-5, retrieved 10 August 2012 caste The term that the Portuguese and later the British used to describe the hereditary Hindu system of rank that organizes society in India. In principle, there are four castes—the priests (Brahmin), the warriors (Kshatriya), the merchants (Vaisiya), and the peasants (Sudra). There is also a group below and excluded from the caste system—the untouchables. The exclusivity of the castes was reinforced through rigid norms that governed contact among them and that especially proscribed marriage outside each caste. Traditionally, caste dictated employment possibilities according to a system that ranked occupations by their degree of spiritual pollution. In practice, in an occupationally complex and modernizing society, the castes are divided into many subcastes, which vary across localities. Certain occupations are open or vied for by more than one caste, and a significant minority in Indian society rejects the system altogether—notably the Muslims. India has proved a rich and difficult subject of anthropological and sociological interpretation—one that resists simple accounts of caste practices. The study of the Indian caste system has also had an impact on the accounts of divided societies more generally, contributing the notion of a SUBALTERN as a way of thinking about subordination that cuts across lines of class, race, and gender. Haviland, William A.; Prins, Harald E. L.; Walrath, Dana (2010), Anthropology: The Human Challenge, Cengage Learning, pp. 536–537, ISBN 978-0-495-81084-1, retrieved 11 August 2012 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) A caste is a closed social class in a stratified society in which membership is determined by birth and fixed for life. The opposite of the principle that all humans are born equal, the caste system is based on the principle that humans neither are nor can be equal. Castes are strongly endogamous, and offspring are automatically members of their parents' caste. (New Section) TRADITIONAL HINDU CASTE SYSTEM The classic ethnographic example of a caste system is the traditional Hindu caste system of India (also found in other parts of Asia, including Nepal and Bali). Perhaps the world's longest surviving social hierarchy, it encompasses a complex ranking of social groups on the basis of "ritual purity:' Each of some 2,000 different castes considers itself as a distinct community higher or lower than other castes, although their particular ranking varies among geographic regions and over time. (After seven long paragraphs on the Hindu caste system, the textbook has the following one paragraph on other castlike situations.) ... Castelike situations are found in other places in the world. In Bolivia, Ecuador, and several other South and Central American countries, for example, the wealthy upper class is almost exclusively white and rarely intermarries with people of non-European descent. In contrast, the lower class of working poor in those countries is primarily made up of American Indian laborers and peasants. Likewise, most European stratified societies were historically organized in closed social classes known as estates—ranked as clergy, nobility, and citizens and each with distinctive political rights (privileges). These were hierarchically identified by titles and forms of address, and they were publicly identified by distinctive dress and codes of behavior.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:24, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Please provide evidence of major disagreement in the tertiary sources

I have listed 31 modern tertiary references. Please provide evidence that the modern tertiary sources (not Encylopedia American 1851 or Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911) have major disagreement on the centrality of India, especially Hindu India, to the notion of caste. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:40, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

31+ tertiary sources on caste compared and analyzed

Wikipedia uses secondary sources for details (see WP:SCHOLARSHIP). If secondary and tertiary sources are in dispute, articles mustn't take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias (see WP:NPOV). To conserve space and time, I avoid repeating what has been previously discussed on this talk page. I also skip commenting on references already commented on by another wiki contributor on this talk page. My focus are those references that still await cross-examination as of September 4 2012. First 15 tertiary references of Fowler&fowler Comment: Those first 15 tertiary sources have been compared and analyzed here. The numerous tertiary sources I cited during that discussion, published variously in 19th century, early 20th century, mid 20th century, late 20th century and early 21st century show that there is dispute between tertiary sources. Some of the sources I cited were across time; the same encyclopedia published in 1850s, 1900s, 1910s, 1940s, 1950s, 1970s show an evolving, but a consistent summary that caste is a worldwide sociological phenomenon. Some of my tertiary sources exclusively focus on caste in Latin America and caste in Africa, with no mention of India or any other Asian country or religion. To save time and space, I focus on citations that have not been cross examined yet, skipping those cross examined already by wiki contributors other than Fowler&fowler and ApostleVonColorado. 19. Lewis, I. M. (1985 (reprinted 2003)), Social & Cultural Anthropology in Perspective, Cambridge University Press (reprinted by Transaction Publishers), pp. 190–191, ISBN 978-0-7658-0986-5, retrieved 10 August 2012 Comment: This tertiary source has several articles on caste, one of which is on India. It has additional articles on castes worldwide. I cite two (only briefly to save space): Page 189: Central African Kingdom of Rwanda as it existed prior to and following the imposition of Belgian rule in 1916. This state had traditionally a threefold caste structure,... Page 223: Zande state. (Evans Pritchard) states clearly and unequivocally that the ruling Avongara elite, whom he describes as an exclusive caste, took no part in the production of food... (Of course, Evans Pritchard is not a fringe sociologist on this; a lot of literature is out there: see Adam Jackson's paper on Zande society and the effect of colonialism This tertiary source in other articles also mentions castes in Colombia, Ceylon, etc. 23. Lawson, Tony (2001), "caste", Dictionary of Sociology, Taylor & Francis, p. 25, ISBN 978-1-57958-291-3, retrieved 10 August 2012 24. Mitchell, Geoffrey Duncan (1 October 2006), "Castes", A New Dictionary of the Social Sciences, Transaction Publishers, pp. 194–195, ISBN 978-0-202-30878-4, retrieved 10 August 2012 29. Nagar, Richa (2011), "caste", in Derek Gregory, The Dictionary of Human Geography, Ron Johnston, Geraldine Pratt, Michael Watts, Sarah Whatmore, John Wiley & Sons, p. 72, ISBN 978-1-4443-5995-4, retrieved 10 August 2012 30. Calhoun, Craig (2002), "caste", Dictionary of the Social Sciences, Oxford University Press, p. 60, ISBN 978-0-19-512371-5, retrieved 10 August 2012 Comment: First, we must ignore dictionaries, since wikipedia is not a dictionary (see WP:WWIN). Second, on caste, dictionaries disagree with each other too; for example, see definitions 1, 3, and 4 from Merriam-Webster’s 3rd New International Dictionary (1993). Merriam-Webster's includes broader definition of caste, that has nothing to do with India. As another example, see definition 1 of Winthrop, Robert H. (1991), Dictionary of Concepts in Cultural Anthropology; as yet another example, see Penguin dictionary which includes, "'There is considerable debate as to whether the caste system is specific to Hindu culture, or whether its principal features are more widely found in other societies where hierarchically organized, endogamous strata are present." There are at least an additional 6 dictionaries that mention or discuss a broader definition of caste as a worldwide phenomenon, and acknowledge associated dispute between scholars. I also note that the actual author of some of these dictionary articles (not necessarily the editor) have a low H-index, some have published only a few articles on caste, and have received too few citations on their peer reviewed caste articles so far to supersede other authors. I also note that on page 132, Craig Calhoun's edition acknowledges analysis of caste has provoked controversy; and uses the word caste in non-Indian context elsewhere such as on page 141.

The above combined with this past analysis show that historical and modern tertiary sources agree that caste is neither unique nor exclusive to India. Additionally, that past discussion also presented some of the most widely cited, peer reviewed contemporary secondary publications on caste, showing that it is neither unique nor exclusive to India.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 03:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Does the article minimize the centrality of India to the notion of caste?

The tertiary sources are largely agreed that Hindu India is central to a discussion of caste. Yet in this article (see this version) India is casually mentioned as just one example. Does this article minimize that central role (in a social and historical ill) and thereby engage in a kind of defensive universalism, not to mention original research and synthesis? 02:20, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:RFC guideline, I note that this RfC is improperly worded. Here is an alternate statement: The tertiary sources on the subject of caste largely admit dispute (see here). Some tertiary sources on caste focus primarily on Latin America or Africa, some focus primarily on India, and many tertiary sources discuss caste as a worldwide phenomenon. Beyond tertiary sources, numerous peer reviewed secondary source publications, highly cited per citation index scores, overwhelmingly note that caste is not unique to India and it is a socio-cultural phenomena widely observed in the world. Wikipedia has a family of interlinked articles on caste, including one exclusively on Caste system in India and numerous articles related to the subject. Does it make sense to ignore thousands of scholarly articles on caste and its history around the world, and reduce this article to something that essentially duplicates the article Caste system in India (Fowler&fowler has linked to an old version of this article above, for this RfC purposes please see the pre-RfC September 3 2012 version of this article here)? ApostleVonColorado (talk) 01:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler removed the above. I re-added this because the official WP:RFC#Suggestions for responding states this: If you feel a RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template. FWIW, your time stamp is preserved above. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 03:54, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

---

Comment by Ratnakar.kulkarni

Before I comment let me inform you again we need secondary source but still I will comment on your tertiary

Review of 30 tertiary sources

3: some authorities have used the term 'colour-caste system' to describe the stratification based on race in the United States and elsewhere. But it is among the Hindus in India that we find the system in its most fully developed form. The source says that the system is present elsewhere but fully developed in India 4: Caste systems have been defined in the most general terms as systems of hierarchically ordered endogamous units in which membership is hereditary and permanent (e.g. Berreman 1960). On such a definition a whole range of rigidly stratified societies would be characterized by caste—Japan, for example, or certain Polynesian and East African societies, or the racially divided world of the American Deep South. The source just takes Hindus as an example and says caste is present elsewhere 5: any of the ranked, hereditary, endogamous social groups, often linked with occupation, that together constitute traditional societies in South Asia, particularly among Hindus in India Meaning it is also present in other countries and communities 7: Nearly all societies have had some form of social stratification, whether ascriptive or achieved, based on race, class, religion, ethnicity, language, education, or occupation This says that all societies 10: Caste is an age-old institution, evoked through several centuries. As a system of stratification, it has existed in many parts of the world and is being practiced today in some countries. But the caste system of closed endogamous descent groups as prevalent and practiced in India is not found elsewhere Ok so a different form of caste system is practiced, fair enough 11: group of people having a specific social rank, defined generally by descent, marriage, commensality, and occupation. Although the term caste is applied to hierarchically ranked groups in many different societies around the world This is same as number 5 12: while caste is distinctively Indian in origin, social scientists also often use it to describe inflexible social barriers in other contexts This comes very close to your theory 13: A classic example of the caste system is the one found in India, which has existed there for hundreds of years Yes India Caste system is an example but not the only such thing may be the best example 14: Caste is a hierarchical, hegemonic ranking of social groups found predominantly on the Indian subcontinent. Yes present elsewhere but predominant in India 15: There is a strenuous argument among social scientists over whether the word "caste" can be used anywhere other than in referring to India. It explains what happens in India but says that there is argument among social scientists. 16: the caste system is to be defined in terms of structural features which are found not only in Hindu India but in a number of other societies as well. Those who hold the latter view find caste groups in such widely scattered areas as the Arabian Peninsula, Polynesia, north Africa, east Africa, Guatemala, Japan, aboriginal North America, and the contemporary United States This again contains the debate about caste system 17: Caste systems exist in various cultures; in many West African societies blacksmiths, praise-singers, and leather workers function as endogamous castes. In traditional European society peasants and nobility were endogamous castes and in Japan the Burakumin people, who were set apart based on their participation in "unclean" occupations, represented a caste, although they were defined in racial terms. Indeed, before the 1950s era of expanding civil rights, black/white relations in the American South also incorporated many elements of a caste system. The ascribed status of race prohibited people from intermarrying, eating together, and interacting with each other in ways very similar to those of a caste system (Dollard 1937). Most frequently however, caste is identified with India, where it is deeply and historically embedded in culture and plays a central role in social stratification This says nothing about caste being mostly a Indian thing 18: The best-known closed or caste system is that of India ok it is best know so there are lot of not so well known society 20: Anthropologists disagree on whether caste should be read in ways similar to SOCIAL STRUCTURES outside India or as something unique. The nature of jajmani conventions has also been disputed. The word "caste" derives from Spanish and Portuguese, casta ("race") Again a debate 21: caste An institution of considerable internal complexity, which has been over-simplified by those seeking an ideal type of rigid hierarchical social stratification, based on extreme closure criteria. In Max Weber's writings it was synonymous with ethnic status stratification and constituted one end of the continuum which contrasted status honour stratification with commercial classes and the market. Possibly the clearest definition is that proffered by André Béteille, who describes a caste as 'a small and named group of persons characterized by endogamy, hereditary membership and a specific style of life which sometimes includes the pursuit by tradition of a particular occupation and is usually associated with a more or less distinct ritual status in a hierarchical system, based on concepts of purity and pollution' (Caste, Class and Power, 1965). even this has some kind of generalization 22: There is considerable debate as to whether the caste system is specific to Hindu culture, or whether its principal features are more widely found in other societies where hierarchically organized, endogamous strata are present. In the first position, caste cannot be defined independently of 'caste system', which is specific to classical Hindu society. In the second argument, the term caste is extended to embrace the stratification of ethnic groups, for example in the southern states of the USA. While the Hindu caste system is organized in terms of four major castes (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra) there is considerable diversity at the local, village level Again a debatable thing, the possibility of presence of caste in other society 25: Again this take example of India and discusses the theory of caste 26: The first is structural-functional and views caste as a category or type, comparable in many respects to hierarchical organizations elsewhere. In this vein, Gerald Berreman wrote that "a caste system resembles a plural society whose discrete sections all ranked vertically." (1968: 55). Indian caste therefore is analogous to social structures elsewhere in which rank is ascribed, such as American racial grading (Goethals 1961; Bujra 1971). The second school understands Indian caste as a total symbolic world, unique, self-contained, and not comparable to other systems. Again a debate and you preffered to choose whatever you want 27: Although the concept of caste is associated almost exclusively with India, elements of caste can be found in a few other societies, such as Japan during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and more recently in the United States and South Africa. Although the caste system was officially banned in India in 1949, its influence remains in rural areas. Again it is found in few other societies 28: An hierarchical system of social control in India, with each sub-group assigned a ranked status, depending on its origin and religious strictness. In Europe, a minority group with its own culture, such as the Gypsies. In the United States, a hereditary class status, the members of which are limited in residence, job, marriage, and economic possibilities Other groups in other part of the world. 31: Castelike situations are found in other places in the world. In Bolivia, Ecuador, and several other South and Central American countries, for example, the wealthy upper class is almost exclusively white and rarely intermarries with people of non-European descent. In contrast, the lower class of working poor in those countries is primarily made up of American Indian laborers and peasants. Likewise, most European stratified societies were historically organized in closed social classes known as estates—ranked as clergy, nobility, and citizens and each with distinctive political rights (privileges). These were hierarchically identified by titles and forms of address, and they were publicly identified by distinctive dress and codes of behavior. May be followed by a long para but it notes that caste like system does exist in other part of the world.

I don't think that there is any debate about existence of caste system among Hindus in India but even according to your source (which are tertiary references while we need secondary) caste system very much exists outside India. You just cannot cherry pick your favorite source and change the lead of the article and make it look like the article of "Caste System of India". Please note this is a general article if you say that it is dominant in India mention you can do it in a better way. I should appreciate you audacity. You are trying to fool people by writing Caste a complex social institution characterized by endogamy, hereditary transmission of occupation, and status in a hierarchy, which is especially important in the lives of Hindus in India.--sarvajna (talk) 14:21, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. I wholly concur. The fact of the matter is that the much touted tertiary sources don't seem to contradict our stance, rather many corroborate what we have been saying all along, that yes Caste-system was and is a problem in Hinduism/Indian society but social stratification is present outside of Hinduism or India also. Repeating the same claims again and again, is not really helpful when they are either accepted or replied to or rebutted. That is the problem with Fowler. Mrt3366 ^{(Talk page?) (New section?)} 15:43, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Well if social stratification exists outside India, then put that content in the page social stratification. If social segregation exists outside India, put that content in social segregation. If racial segregation exists outside India, put that content in racial segregation. If racial discrimination exists outside India, put that content in racial discrimination. If social hierarchy exists outside India, put that content in the page social hierarchy. Why are you stuffing the garbage in Caste? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:33, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment by CorrectKnowledge

Before we go off into a tangential direction, let me point out that this is technical issue rather than a NPOV/balance related issue. India like Yemen, Korea etc. has just one section in this article even though it is a predominant example of caste because of the summary style of writing articles. The content on India is just a summary of Caste system in India, History of the Indian caste system, Varna (Hinduism) etc. which in turn branch out into hundreds of other articles on caste. As such the size of the section cannot be longer than a certain limit for this article. I don't see where the problem is, please clarify further if I've missed something. Regards. Correct Knowledge^«৳alk» 14:37, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Ratnakar.kulkarni and CorrectKnowledge. Per WP:SS official wiki guidelines, "a fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own. The original article should contain a section with a summary of the subtopic's article as well as a link to it."

I plan to add a few points and a summary comparison between tertiary sources not previously covered.

Meanwhile, anyone who has not followed the discussion on this topic since early August, is urged to get the full history and consequent development of this article by reading this discussion and the last version of this article dated September 3 2012.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, CorrectKnowledge, it is not even remotely a technical issue. It is one of creating a content fork so that the content of this article can be distorted. See Wikipedia:Content_forking#Article_spinouts:_.22Summary_style.22_articles, which states, "the moved material must be replaced with an NPOV summary of that material. If it is not, then the "spinning out" is really a clear act of POV forking." The caste system in India section is not even remotely a NPOV summary of the Caste system in India article; for it to be so, it will need to be much longer, if not longer than all the other caste systems combined. Besides many subsections, such as Korea, have their own parent articles, yet the "Caste system in Korea" subsection is longer than the India subsection. The combined length of the content under "East Asia" is not much smaller than the article Caste system in India; one could easily create an article "Caste system in East Asia" and summarize it here in a proportionate one small paragraph. Notice also that an article Caste system in East Asia would have a hard time passing any AfD discussion; yet here is is blithely masquerading as "legitimate" content. If you disagree, try creating such an article. Same with "Caste in Europe." Try creating that article. The Europe section certainly has article length content under it. If it survives AfD, I'll eat my hat; yet that content is alive and well in this page. Notice also that many of the sub sections are simply titled "England," "Korea," etc, not "Caste in England," "Caste in Korea," etc. that is because many of the reference cited do not use the word "caste" at all. They simply talk of some form of social stratification. That is the major original research part of this article, which I haven't even particularly talked about. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:19, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Sections shouldn't be named Caste in England etc. per MOS:HEAD (Headings should not refer redundantly to the subject of the article), but I catch your drift. There seem to be two different issues here: a)The summaries of spinouts of India, Korea etc. do not accurately represent them, b)Some sections contain original research and/or misrepresent their sources. I am not sure how this RfC will help, it seems a bit premature. The issues need to be discussed separately and in detail. Some of the sections in this article cannot be spun out into new articles, but that does not make their inclusion here questionable (unless they violate WP:OR of course). You are also implying that India's section should have the longest length in this article. That need not be the case because editors do not predetermine the size of content they are adding to the article. It flows naturally from the number of reliable secondary sources available and the directions on splitting out into a new article. The smaller size of India's section does not necessarily imply that it is unbalanced. However, if it does not accurately represent the spun out articles it requires further discussion. Correct Knowledge^«৳alk» 15:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I encourage Fowler&fowler to identify sources supporting his assertion:

....'that is because many of the reference cited do not use the word "caste" at all.'

A while ago, I verified the sources cited in this article's section on England, Korea, France, Africa, Yemen, China, etc. and each source I checked did use the word caste. FWIW, the article Caste system in India and numerous linked and sub-linked spin-off articles therein, taken together, is many many times larger than this article. They had grown to be much larger than they are now, and were heavily trimmed per consensus (see talk page of Caste system in India, for example). ApostleVonColorado (talk) 15:52, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Very simple solution. Why don't you try creating the article, Caste in Europe, the content here is some ten times as long as the India section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

"India like Yemen, Korea etc. has just one section in this article even though it is a predominant example of caste because of the summary style of writing articles." - yup. But the thing is India is predominantly cited as an example. India is not the only example, keep that in mind. Mrt3366 ^{(Talk page?) (New section?)} 16:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

As for your other assertion, ApostlevonColorado, hah, it is hard to figure out where "caste" is mentioned because in many instances (eg citations 122, 123, 124, 125, 127, 128) you don't provide any page numbers whatsoever in the references. Are you saying the word caste occurs somewhere in the 300 page book. How were you able to verify that? By going through every page in the book? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:06, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Creating an article on Caste in Europe might not be a bad idea at all. It is the only major section to not have a spin out. Correct Knowledge^«৳alk» 16:20, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I think sooner or later one ought to create it. Mrt3366 ^{(Talk page?) (New section?)} 16:24, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

ApostlevonColorado, reference number 114 is a New York Times article about the Cagots from 1888, which uses only the word "outcast," (not the word "outcaste"). "Caste" doesn't seem to make an appearance, in this highly dated (and obviously unreliable) reference. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:27, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

See citation 14, for Cagots, by Tom Knox (10 June 2010). "The untouchables of FRANCE: How swarthy Pyrenean race persecuted for centuries are still being abused today". London: Daily Mail. He uses the word caste in paragraphs 25-40. The New York Times meet wiki's reliable source guidelines, is included as a second independent source; the NYTimes article verifies the 'Cagots were considered repulsive, morally impure and shunned' part of the summary. On Roma, see Lemon's book and other publications - you will find she uses the word caste. Your own tertiary sources, listed above on this talk page, mention gypsies/Roma people have been described as castes by various scholars. Yes, please get the book and read the sources. I am certain that you will find the sources cited about castes outside India, in this article, include the word "caste".

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 17:16, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, it is reference 116. I am not talking about the article Cagots, but the lead paragraph of the section Caste#Europe and its reference 116. It is unsupported by any other reference and doesn't mention caste. The very next reference 117, Beatrice Gottlieb (1994). The Family in the Western World from the Black Death to the Industrial Age. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-509056-7., which is cited again in the England section, seems to make no mention of the word "caste," at least the Google search fails to find the word. How many examples do you want me to find? These are just random two. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:00, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting that the New York Times from 1888, with a 150 year old printer typeface to boot, is a reliable source per Wikipedia guidelines? Would you like to debate that on the Reliable Sources talk page? Please read it again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

PS It is not even the New York Times; it is the Times quoting Popular Science (formerly the Popular Science Montly). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:15, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I was also referring to Caste#Europe. The first time citation 116 is mentioned in that section of this article, it is mentioned together with citation 14. Please read both, I do not want to repeat my explanation above. Gotlieb supports the summary; get the book and read it. On England or Cagots or anything else, if the quality of this article would be improved by citing additional sources, we can work towards that goal. There are numerous citations out there that use the word caste in describing historical England, Cagots, etc.

Meanwhile, part of our month long dispute is whether this article should be almost entirely about India (your position as I understand it), or should it be a more balanced article with worldwide perspective as described by all sides of the WP:RS scholarly dispute on the subject of caste (my position). I request that you respect the WP:DR process. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 19:24, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Since when did the Daily Mail supported by a 130 year old article from the Popular Science Monthly which uses "cretin" to describe congenital hypothyroidism become a Wikipedia reliable source? Your admonitions for etiquette notwithstanding, I am far from simply suggesting that this article can be improved by finding better sources, I am rather suggesting that you have engaged in en masse original research in much of the article. "Get the book and read it," is not an adequate response in the face of such a serious allegation, especially when a book (Gottlieb) which never uses the word "caste" once is used in a citation which does not provide page numbers. Lastly, let me suggest that you make a separate statement here, a response to the RfC statement, rather than carry on an endless dialog with me in a subsection meant for someone else's statement. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:05, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Apostlevoncolorado, it is best not to change the article for the duration of the RfC. It becomes very difficult for the people who are commenting as they have a moving target. Please self-revert your Cagots edits. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:39, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler - I did not change the content, simply added two citations for WP:V - one book and one peer reviewed journal article citation that address your concern above. If there is an official wiki policy that suggests wiki contributors should not add citations to address verifiability concerns during RfC, please link the relevant page below. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 00:17, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

In an article, in which much of the criticism is about original research and, consequently about the sourcing, it is not a good idea to keep changing the sourcing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:36, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Mrt3366

I didn't have time to go through all of the sources and frankly I think its sheer redundancy puts it close to the category of WP:TLDR.

But from a cursory glance I can tell most of the tertiary sources that were deposited agree on one thing nearly all societies have had some form of social stratification, whether ascriptive or achieved, based on race, class, religion, ethnicity, language, education, or occupation. But they also claim, what we already accepted, that the caste system is a complicated problem in India is possibly the most complex and rigid. But we have already accepted that. How many times does the nominator want to make us repeat that. What's wrong with you (Fowler) buddy? Mrt3366 ^{(Talk page?) (New section?)} 15:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

AFAIK, caste is a form of 'social segregation' and should be treated and talked about in such terms. The very word "caste" has been of a non-Indian origin (meaning "segregation"), yet has been imputed to Indian hindu culture umpteenth number of times in this discussion, why so? Why is fowler so eager to ascribe 'castus' - (latin word meaning segregation) mostly to Hinduism as well as Hindu culture? Mrt3366 ^{(Talk page?) (New section?)} 16:09, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

The tertiary sources, whose content you distort in summary, consider India, especially Hindu India, to be the classic and most frequently cited (and some say only) ethnographic example of the caste system. As such it should be given major emphasis and space in this article. Instead, this article after a transparently perfunctory discussion of India under "South Asia," moves on to spend more time on the section Caste#Africa, which, it turns out, is longer than the parent article it cites, Caste system in Africa!!! What do you call that other than content-forking? This article is not about social segregation, which has its own article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:28, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment by ApostleVonColorado

Per WP:RFC guideline, I note that this RfC is improperly worded. Here is an alternate statement: The tertiary sources on the subject of caste largely admit dispute (see here). Some tertiary sources on caste focus primarily on Latin America or Africa, some focus primarily on India, and many tertiary sources discuss caste as a worldwide phenomenon. Beyond tertiary sources, numerous peer reviewed secondary source publications, highly cited per citation index scores, overwhelmingly note that caste is not unique to India and it is a socio-cultural phenomena widely observed in the world. Wikipedia has a family of interlinked articles on caste, including one exclusively on Caste system in India and numerous articles related to the subject. Does it make sense to ignore thousands of scholarly articles on caste and its history around the world, and reduce this article to something that essentially duplicates the article Caste system in India (Fowler&fowler has linked to an old version of this article above, for this RfC purposes please see the pre-RfC September 3 2012 version of this article here)? ApostleVonColorado (talk) 01:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, you can't change the wording of the RfC. You can make your objections here. Please don't be disruptive. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:22, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I linked it to the version that existed before I made a contribution and before the dispute began, the version we were disputing but in which I was not able to make my contribution as a result of your edit warring, not just once, but twice, especially after you made spurious implications in edit summaries about Andre Beteille's "village focused study," when his definition is quoted in the article on caste in the Oxford Dictionary of Sociology. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:36, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Please do not delete, pretend to be me, or edit my sections on my behalf. It is uncivil. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 03:54, 5 September 2012 (UTC)