Talk:Frédéric Vitoux (tennis)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Stephane Huet - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 07:21, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved by INeverCry. --BDD (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Frederic Vitoux (tennis) → Frédéric Vitoux (tennis) – Two requests: (Request A) move to full spelling per consistent en.wp practice across 100,000s of articles, WP:FRMOS, WP:EN examples, WP:UE examples, WP:MOSBIO examples, WP:AT "Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles" with Frédéric Vitoux (writer). (Request B) removal of current duplication from lead first sentence per WP:OPENPARA examples [currently reads: Frédéric Vitoux (born Versailles, 30 October 1970) known professionally as Frederic Vitoux [dubious – discuss]"] per source Fédération française de tennis FFT website which shows Vitoux, a French citizen who has no dual nationality (played in 2 French Opens, appearing once at a US Open) is "professionally known" in France as Frédéric with French accents: "Frédéric Vitoux : Union nationale des joueurs professionnels de tennis (UNJPT)" where he is a coach and official. Per WT:TENNISNAMES RfC June 2012 and WP:BLP This page in a nutshell: Material about living persons added to any Wikipedia page must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoidance of original research. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:08, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• comment - Let's at least not fabricate when we post these moves. Never played abroad is completely false: This guy has played on the continents of North America, Africa, Europe, South America, Asia and Indonesia. That's pretty "abroad" to me. Never played at the US Open... again another falsehood. One has only to look at the 1996 draw to see he not only played, he made it to round two. I have no problem in moving it away from English if that's the consensus these days, but the governing bodies of his sport (the reason he is listed here at all) and the English press, spell his name differently, and that must be noted in some way. I can tweak the wording to better fit the sourcing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Fyunck, please refrain from personal attacks. I clicked the footnote ref http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Vi/F/Frederic-Vitoux.aspx and read what was in the link. The link says "Qualified for the 1990 and '93 French Open, his only Grand Slam outings." There is no evidence in the footnoted link of any notable player activity abroad. If atpworldtour.com is unreliable about matches played then why is it even being used as a source? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:26, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I see if one goes to the second tab and resets the year to 1996 http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Vi/F/Frederic-Vitoux.aspx?t=pa&y=1996&m=s&e=0# one can produce reference to a notable game in an English speaking country. I will amend RM to reflect this. The facing footnote still says however "Qualified for the 1990 and '93 French Open, his only Grand Slam outings." blame the website. Also the governing body of his sport in his country is Fédération française de tennis who do not have a ban on French names. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:29, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I see you've changed the lead sentence after the RM request to change the lead sentence. The request B stands, this "professionally known as" is the one that has been added to around 100x BLPs since last years RfC, so it makes sense to address that wording. All the best, nothing personal - would be requesting this if it was ["François Mitterrand.. also professionally known as Francois Mitterrand"] (the example used at WP:OPENPARA) it's the same principle. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support the RM, and the removal of the pedantic "professionally known as." If this person's name is Frédéric Vitoux, we have no business representing it otherwise. Just because the ITF or whoever doesn't use diacritics doesn't mean he has a "professional name" that just happens to be the same as his real name without diacritics. --BDD (talk) 16:21, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support and agree with BDD. If we must list the name w/o diacritics, something like "listed by the ITF as..." would make more sense; but it's transparent enough to be worth omitting. Dicklyon (talk) 01:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support as being in the interests of general encyclopaedic accuracy; the "professionally known as" qualifier to account for diacritical differences is laughable, and the practice should be expunged. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 03:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Not too fussed whether we use diacritics or not, but strongly support removing "professionally known as" or any name duplication from lead. I think it's pretty obvious what Frédéric Vitoux would be in English. Jevansen (talk) 06:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what is wanted, it's required by wiki policy that all significant spellings be present in the lead. We aren't talking about a smattering of hits. There are significant sources that spell it Frederic Vitoux. I had suggested alternate ways of writing it, and suggested that we could even go against policy and put it in a different section as a compromise, but total censorship of a spelling used more often than not isn't a viable option as it is easily sourced. Common names are shunned these days as titles, as are English spellings... not my choice but those !voting have spoken and that issue is really an either or. But consensus is not supposed to be an either or... if possible. It's supposed to be the art of compromise so all parties have some satisfaction, though the majority may have more satisfaction. That was the wiki community I originally was part of at least. Maybe that's changed too. It's one thing to change the initial view of a name, it's quite another to outright ban a sourced version when it's used almost exclusively by the press, Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open, French Open, Davis Cup, ITF, ATP, Fed Cup, television, their tennis registration id's, their personal English websites, etc. Sorry, per administrative advice I avoid some editors here, so this response is sort of an all-encompassing answer to all of the above. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support; more accurate spelling. bobrayner (talk) 14:04, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support per encyclopedic accuracy, and support removal of the "known professionally as" stuff. He's not exactly travelling incognito under "Frédéric Vitoux", and then unmasking himself in the tennis stadia as "Frederic Vitoux". Btw, he's "professionally known" in France as himself. The English-speaking world and the world of professional tennis do overlap, but are not the same; the French have pros too (needless to say). For this nonsense to be correct, it would have to be "professionally known in the English-speaking world as", making it even more nonsensical. HandsomeFella (talk) 14:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Closing Comment - it appears there is clear consensus to remove the diacritics use the diacritics (corrected on 06:10, 25 April 2013 (UTC) since clearly I was in support of using diacritics since I G6'ed to enable the move to the diacritics version), and IMHO I believe a redirect from the non-diacritic form will suffice for end user searchability of this article. It also appears clearly supported to remove the redundent "aka" form on this page. I will request a CDG#G6 to make way for the move, and will go ahead and edit the OPENPARA now. Tiggerjay (talk) 16:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

  "... to remove the diacritics"? The consensus favours a move to the diacriticized version – and a removal of the a.k.a. form. HandsomeFella (talk) 18:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment - This is a "request to move", not an "rfc on policy" which would go against alternate spellings, or in use English. Mention of the most common English spelling is important and sourced. You overstepped your authority in this move request as we do not censor here at wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:35, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Anyone can implement a clear consensus reached on the talkpage. Why would a closing admin be disqualified from doing that? HandsomeFella (talk) 18:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

One, he's not an administrator. Two, this is a request for move. And three, consensus does not trump policy. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:04, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Continued WP:TENNISNAME edits

Despite 8:1 against the duplicate name, we now have a footnote currently Spelled as Frederic Vitoux in some English press of the 1990s[4][5][6] and governing bodies of tennis.[7][8][9]. The English press is less relevant, since we can see NYTimes in 1993 didn't have French accents, today it does, so what. It seems the issue is "the governing bodies of tennis" (meaning a couple of FREDERIC VITOUX player listings on sports listings websites?). If not, how is this any different from Zoë Eliot Baird (English: Zoe Eliot Baird; born June 20, 1952) ? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I BOLDLY removed it per BRD. Now we can discuss. I believe that we have already made it clear that it would be irrelevant and commonsense that other countries might drop accent marks. Additionally, if we are concerned about people being able to find this article, we already have an appropriate redirect form the non-accented form. Tiggerjay (talk) 10:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I boldly moved it back to it's original place. Plus the edit was broken and is now fixed. It is not irrelevant at all when almost all English sources spell it a certain way. We acknowledge that this spelling exists in some fashion. As Encyclopedia Britannica does with Ilie Nastase. They find it important enough not to censor it. As for newspapers.... when someone plays in the early 1990s one would expect the articles to be from the 1990s. Goodness. If we look at French players from today like Alizé Cornet or Michaël Llodra of course their newspaper articles would be more up to date with the same results. Alize Cornet NY Times, Michael Llodra NY Times. Im sure Zoë Baird has her name registered with the State bar. How is it spelled there? At the Markle Foundation (where she's president) they spell it Zoë Baird. That's not the case here as the governing bodies, the individual events and the English press spell it Frederic Vitoux. It would be strange indeed if the the English press wasn't relevant in an English wikipedia. If there are suggestions on how best to place this info I'm listening and willing to bend. But forbidding or banning it is not the answer. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Fyunck, cut it out. There's bold, and there's foolhardy. You know full well that you are outnumbered on this, and have been so several times over, on several tennis player articles. Keep in mind that you have already been warned, and might be reported for edit-warring or disruptive editing any moment now. You're walking on thin ice. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2013 (UTC)