User talk:EdJohnston

Edit warring noticeboard Q

Hi, Ed.

Commenting on the note you left on my talk page: Elvey reported me for edit warring, but I was not doing any Wikipedia work over the weekend (family time) and did not follow up, and its been bot-archived after 48 hours; it's now in the archives here . I think it's worth responding to, but I don't know the protocol for that. Can you advise? TJRC (talk) 19:22, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

This is about an archived 3RR report. It seems that you, User:Elvey and User:Prosfilaes all have some knowledge of this topic. Generally you and Prosfilaes are in agreement but Elvey is on the other side. I suggest following the steps of WP:Dispute resolution. Even if you don't have the patience to open up a formal WP:RFC, you could at least state your preference on the talk page and ask others to comment. When an outsider like myself looks at the page, it is unclear what the dispute is about. This could make it more difficult to recruit people new to the problem to offer their opinion. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 20:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I regret getting involved at all and probably would have left it alone altogether had Elvey not repeatedly posted to my talk page complaining about my (single) edit.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:12, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Ed. I'm about to leave for vacation in a few days, and don't think we'd get any resolution before leaving, so I'll open something there when I get back. There's not a lot of point in editing the article in the meantime, so I am with some reluctance leaving Elvey's version there (I just self-reverted), and will keep away from this article for the next couple of weeks. TJRC (talk) 13:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Ed,

(I replied to your recent comment on my talk page; please reply.) Above, you said "When an outsider like myself looks at the page, it is unclear what the dispute is about." I think there's now a clearer | summary of the overall dispute here but I'd like to know if you have any suggestions; it works for you? I could copy it over. FYI, TJRC has resorted to misquoting policy (unapologetically, as always) and so forth on his talk page. --Elvey (talk) 21:31, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and copied it over, with some tweaking. Does it make clear what the dispute is about, in your view? It's here. --Elvey (talk) 06:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

• Hello Elvey. Normally I'd suggest taking this to the WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard. However the tone that each of you uses toward the other is so unpleasant that you would probably exhaust the patience of the DRN volunteers before they even got started. Also the dispute presents a mix of content and conduct issues which will interfere with settling it. I'd recommend that you look within yourself to see if there is an untapped reserve of diplomacy that you could call upon, and then try to open a formal WP:Request for comment on the article talk page. If you post any criticism of the other editor on article talk it will probably scare off anybody who is tempted to help. Even User:Prosfilaes might consider coming back if you could tone down the rhetoric for a few days. As a first step, I recommend that you remove the material you posted under 'Further Dispute Resolution' and try to replace it with a revised version that only talks about content issues, very calmly, and doesn't accuse anyone else of misbehavior. EdJohnston (talk) 16:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

As I mentioned above and on Elvey's talk page, I'm heading out for vacation, and not back for about 10 days. I'd request that any RFC be held off until then. This shouldn't have any unfair impact: the last edit made before the page was protected was when I reversed my own edit to put Elvey's preferred text back in, so it's not like he has to put up with having my preferred text there in the meantime. TJRC (talk) 00:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

TJRC asked that I hold off on any RFC. I've respected that request.

Ed, Thanks for the point about tone regarding what I posted on article talk. I posted it after not hearing from you for a couple days. In the past (e.g. many weeks ago) I tried to pay it forward and help with a few WP:Dispute resolution cases, but more often than not I either can't grok the gist of the dispute, having read the case, or run out of patience while still reading it. A good learning experience, but apparently it hasn't been enough. 'Further Dispute Resolution' is gone. User:Elvey/sandbox-content is a start at a revised version that follows the suggestions I've received.

I'd asked you about the | summary of the overall dispute here on AN/EW, but you only responded regarding a posting to the talk page that I hadn't asked about. I see why you mentioned the talk page, but I don't understand whether "what the dispute is about" means something different in the context of AN/EW, which is where I posted and asked for feedback. When posting on AN/EW, I recall one is supposed to talk about conduct, rather than content. I don't know if you looked at what I posted on AN/EW, or if it makes clear what the dispute is about, in your view. Does User:Elvey/sandbox-content?

Again, I'd appreciate it if you replied to the comment to you on my talk page. After all, WP:CIVIL says, "Editors are expected to be reasonably cooperative… …and to be responsive to good-faith questions." And that's exactly what I'm asking there - good faith questions. If I didn't think getting a reply was important, I wouldn't be reminding you about it - especially after I updated it (diff). --Elvey (talk) 03:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I won't be available to work on this topic any more. Feel free to ask for assistance elsewhere. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 13:16, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I have some questions

Hi, i saw what you wrote in my talk page and i have some questions, kind of simple ones:

• 1- In the case that i found new sources on the topic can i contact you and ask your opinion directly?

• 2- Will there be any sanction for the user Andythegrump for opening a case at ANI acusing me of something that i wasn't doing? Regardless of the fact that the comunity seems to hate me, he opened the case saying that i was doing things that i wasn't.

regards. Czixhc (talk) 22:22, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

You should avoid the topic of Jonathan Hagos's map entirely for the foreseeable future. I am not going to review your futher content proposals. The community doesn't hate you, but you seemed oblivious to the feedback you were getting. An indefinite block would also have been a justifiable result for the ANI discussion. If you want to continue to edit Wikipedia, you should try to find other topics where you can contribute. There will be no sanctions of other editors as a result of the ANI. Closures at ANI are usually more difficult than this one. It was really you against the world, and you didn't seem to be aware. EdJohnston (talk) 22:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, regarding that I'll see you on 6 months, though i'd like to know if there is a way of shortening the lenght of the ban due good behavoir, by making maintenance works on wiki or something, i'm not a bad person. I knew that it was me vs the world, that's why i said multiple times that i didn't cared about it anymore, but the people commenting still said that i was insisting on pushing the original topic anyway. It's confusing really, but in the end doesn't makes much diference. Czixhc (talk) 22:49, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like there is no way to shorten the term, well, i'll try on 6 months. Czixhc (talk) 23:21, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

A proposal regarding articles tagged under the WP:ARBPIA decision

I have written here a proposal to enforce complying with WP:PRESERVE and WP:CANTFIX in the articles tagged under the WP:ARBPIA decision.

As there is no reply after about a week, have I inserted my proposal in a wrong page?

BTW in order to come with clean hands, I was warned and took it seriously. Ykantor (talk) 02:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

You shouldn't be changing the Workshop page of an arbitration case that was closed in 2008. I recommend that you undo your change immediately. If you believe that another editor is repeatedly or seriously fail[ing] to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia.." in an area covered by the WP:ARBPIA decision, you can open a request for enforcement at WP:AE. See the instructions at the top of that noticeboard. But your incorrectly-posted material doesn't seem well organized and I would beware the WP:BOOMERANG. EdJohnston (talk) 02:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I have undone the Workshop page

I am not looking for a punitive action. I propose to enforce the WP:PRESERVE and WP:CANTFIX in the articles tagged under the WP:ARBPIA decision. If editors will adhere to those rules , a lot of trouble will be avoided. When people know what should really be avoided, they will adapt themselves to the rules. Is there a page in which it can be proposed? Ykantor (talk) 05:50, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

To get Wikipedia policy changed, you need a lot of discussion. It looks to me that you are having simple content disputes in some ARBPIA articles. You are unhappy that others disagree with you, and you may believe that some of these editors are behaving badly. It seems unlikely that WP:PRESERVE and WP:CANTFIX will solve what is displeasing you. Consider the steps of WP:Dispute resolution. EdJohnston (talk) 06:20, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• In my limited experience WP:Dispute resolution is useless. (sorry for the harsh words).e.g. This is my experience during the last months:

1. DRN expired with no solution. The other side changed his mind and left the discussion.
2. DRN expired with no solution. The other sites respond was not what he was asked for by the volunteer.

I intervene in Ykantor's text aware it is not welcome because this is a perfect illustration of the way he proceeds. In fact, the volunteer has not edited for 10 days; and in fact, I have answered very precisely to what he has asked but I have just provided a link to the talk page where I had provided more than 1 month before to Ykantor what the volunteer expects in a normal process of content disputed resolution... Pluto2012 (talk) 20:16, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

1. DRN expired with no solution. No volunteer.
2. "Requests for mediation/Kfar Etzion massacre" have not started The other side declined.
3. DRN expired with no solution Futile, no participation by one editor; has been refiled at WP:3O
4. "1948 Arab–Israeli War" DRN expired with no solution. The volunteer could not continue

• I am probably wrong sometimes, but as my edits are deleted because of bizarre reasons (e.g. bad grammer, because I am required to prove what the Arab people thought as opposed to what their governments said), I do not think that I am the problem.
• Within the Arab- Israel conflict articles, I have an automatic concensus against me, since I am the only regular Israeli editor. I assume that other editors stopped writing in those articles since they experienced the same type of problems. I heard in the Hebrew wikipedia that the English Wikipedia is a lost case.
• Personally I believe that enforcement is better that punishment. When editors knows that even a petit offense (e.g. WP:CANTFIX) will be followed by a warning (only), they will not extend it to more serios behavior, which might need a DRN volunteer lot of attention. BTW If some rules are not enforced, would not it better to get rid of those rules?
• yours:"To get Wikipedia policy changed, you need a lot of discussion". I propose an rules enforcement and not a policy change. Even if it takes a lot of discussion, it will be finished some day. Ykantor (talk) 09:49, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

There is no automatic consensus against you, and it is not a POV-pushing opposition. Take me, if you wish, to be a 'pro-Pal POV-pushing' jihadi lout of the filthiest water if you like, but Pluto 2012 is basically (revisionist) Zionist, while Zero is 'notoriously' neutral but a stickler for exact sourcing. We happen to agree on most of these disputes, I hazard to guess, because we are obsessive about verifiably content, and hunting down good sources, rather than discovering some 'truth' (which you claim is what you aspire to write). As to my neutrality, at Six Days War I tried to challenge you for editing in a statement about Israel that I thought falsified the facts by an anachronism, in an edit that made Israel look particularly bad. I will also add that, while on very good terms with Pluto 2012, I did not automatically intervene in several disputes you had with him, because I reserved my judgement, unsure as to whether he or you were right. My impression was that, despite your declaration that the truth (on one side?) is your objective, you were a promising editor for the English wikipedia. In my view, many of these disputes arise from an incomprehension of wikipedia policy, which is not concerned with verifying the historical truth, but with assuring that readers get all relevant material of the highest quality before their purview. I privately believe it is not healthy that the major high quality RS here (on wars) comes from eminent (and very good) historians from one side of the conflict. But I have to accept that, and duly edit in material that I privately think skewed because it is impeccably sourced. To illustrate: when you raised a query about an assertion by Henry Laurens (that villagers thought Kfar Etzion responsible for the outbreak of hostilities in December 1947), just to be sure, I undercut or 'problematicized' his point by adding that David Tal noted an attack on Jewish convoys as early as December 10, 1947. A close reader would understand that my second source makes Laurens's statement wobbly, but that, since both are ranking historians, both have to be accepted. Further research will clarify the point - forum shopping will not. Nishidani (talk) 11:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

ps. sorry for the intrusion, Ed. But this is a communication problem, and perhaps some of the difficulties might be thrashed out before an administrator, rather than multiplying the complaints over numerous pages. If Ykantor wishes to register a complaint about me, perhaps he should, if you will bear with us, set it forth here (or at AE).Nishidani (talk) 11:20, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• if the situation is so calm , why have you declined this "Requests for mediation/Kfar Etzion massacre" Requests for mediation ? Please change your mind and cooperate, and then the volunteer (if there will be a volunteer) will decide who is wrong and who is correct.
• yours:"If Ykantor wishes to register a complaint about me". Objection. It is much better to sort out content arguements rather than personal arguement.
• As is, I can not contribute anything in those articles, since a lot of my writing will be deleted (sometimes for a bizzare reason), and there is no functioning dispute resolution mechanism. Ykantor (talk) 11:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• (a) I declined for the reasons given. Look at your record. If you find some difficulties on the talk pages, you repeatedly raise the issue at a variety of forums- That's okay, but doing it for every other conflict is extremely time-consuming. I have a huge amount of wood to saw and stockpile, a journey to help relatives in a foreign country, requests to fix deeply flawed articles, and my own work and life to get on with. I simply haven't the time, after complying with one or two requests, to engage in 'dispute resolution' when I think the problem is your inability to WP:AGF and understand key policies like WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and WP:NPOV. I think you wore out Pluto, so, yep, I'm imposing a limit on the time I have available to work here.
• (b) I am just one of several individuals on the relevant pages. It happens that nearly all concur on the key content issues you raise. Either (a) Zero, Pluto and I are engaged in a conspiracy to tagteam and block you or (b) you are consistently failing to understand the policy grounds all base their objections on. An independant review would make a call one way or another, but your habit by now is to take one, or another, of the editors on the page to some review forum, when in fact no one backs you. I assure you there is no tagteaming.
• (c) I have appreciated from the outset the scruple and drive that guides your editing. We need people, rather than reverting IPs and the usual motherlode of sockpuppets, who are actually prepared to wade through numerous quality sources to get a reasonable picture of the state of the art in historical research. You are clearly capable of this order of hard work. But the flaw in this is your repeated statement that you believe there is some 'truth' to be written into the article. No. There is only the need to (a) isolate the best relevant sources and (b) make sure all information added to articles is verifiable. I know, as a published scholar, how hard it is to adapt to this 'humiliation', but if we work here, we have to accept that the 'truth' wherever it lies, is not, often, within the purview of scholars, let alone humble tillers of their seeded soil like us peons. There are at least two perspectives here - 'truth' is, provisorily and operatively, the sum of the most informed perspectives laid before a third party, for them to make up their minds. That is as far as one can go on wikipedia. If you understand this, and understand that one must not make a 'case' but rather induct all relevant information from both perspectives, then you will not encounter the difficulties you speak of.Nishidani (talk) 12:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

With all those nice words, the Litmus test is the cooperation in the wp:drn or similar. Unfortunately you decline the wp:drn. Ykantor (talk) 17:24, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The litmus test is convincing more than one person, other than yourself, that you alone know how to edit wikipedia. I have 40 quince apples to peel for jam-making, which is a more productive task than dealing with a WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. I'm sorry, but you do not appear to understand goodwill, the rules, or the time-limits people have to engage with you on futile quibblings. Goodbye. Nishidani (talk) 17:54, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, I've tried to be polite, but this suggests to me it is pointless, as I objected hereand here. If Ykantor really believes I do what he charged me as doing, then he should report me to AE. If not, he should strike that out. Back to the woodpile for me. Talking at this point is to no purpose. Sorry for the disturbance.Nishidani (talk) 13:28, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Diners Club International

Hi Ed. I was wondering if I could ask for your help again here. Pine suggested I use OTRS, but in the past they've advised me that OTRS is "not a clearinghouse" for bad information ;-) CorporateM (Talk) 02:19, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Responded at Talk:Diners Club International. EdJohnston (talk) 04:27, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:MRV Closing script

FYI

I have created a closing script for move reviews, which can found at User:Armbrust/closemrv.js. If you want to use it, than simply add

importScript('User:Armbrust/closemrv.js');

to your vector JS page and bypass your cache. (Not tested on monobook or modern either.) Regards, Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 02:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
You received this message because you closed at least one MRV discussion in the last six months.

WP:ANEW

Hello EdJohnston, now that you blocked the user for edit warring, can you revert Acid Rap back to the correct reversion before the disruption, and delete Acid Rap (mixtape) for being a redundant copy of the page (also a copy-paste move). I would revert it back myself, but I would prefer not violating 3rr. STATic message me! 04:51, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't like to revert articles myself after an edit war unless it's a BLP issue or vandalism. Why don't you propose this revert on the article talk page. If there is no response from other editors in a reasonable time, you could go ahead and make the change. The Acid Rap (mixtape) article is already tagged with WP:CSD#A10 and maybe another admin will delete it. EdJohnston (talk) 04:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I could understand that, I was under the impression that the entire content of an article can not be copy-paste moved to another article in any case, and the entire topic of the article can not be changed without discussion. It is not really a content dispute, it is just general housekeeping as the other article might not be speedyed now since Acid Rap no longer matches it, I assume someone that does not know the situation is going to stumble upon it and assume the criteria does not apply. Not to mention now the edit histories of both articles are now messed up. I mean if someone blanked Detail, and replaced the content with the content from Detail (musician), you would expect that to be reverted. STATic message me! 05:19, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It looks like another admin has now taken care of this. EdJohnston (talk) 13:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Moved article

Hi Ed. I was having trouble moving the article. It should be back to normal now. If not, please provide some assistance over here. Thanks Ben0kto (talk) 15:06, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Another admin has already deleted Acid Rap (album) which is what I guessed might happen. If you have a plan for how these articles should be organized consider making a proposal at Talk:Esham or some other convenient place. Please try to avoid making further mistakes about article moves. If you just wait a few hours somebody will usually help out. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 15:09, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

• Hey, you might need to step in again with this. I'm trying very, very hard to be neutral about this, but it's getting a little aggravating since Ben0kto has been warned against this before, has been blocked for edit warring, and has pretty much just ignored any and all requests and warnings. I don't want to bite the newbie, but they've had this explained pretty clearly and still show no signs of cooperating or following guidelines. I've reported the user to ANI, as it's gotten to the point where this has become rather disruptive in general. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:48, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Web host IP

Nice. So they really were a sock editing via proxy or some other redirection through a web host. I mean, it was obvious from the behavior, but I was confused by the different IP ranges. The attitude sure said it was the same editor, though. Thanks. Yworo (talk) 21:07, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

WhitePages.com

Hi Ed. If I am ever bugging you too much, just let me know.

I was hoping you might take a look at the draft I posted on the Talk page of the WhitePages article a couple weeks ago. User:John Broughton said he would get to it, but I think he's just busy - hasn't gotten back to me. On account of my COI, I am primarily concerned about having an impartial editor chime in on the best way to cover some criticisms from in the VentureBeat articles mentioned on Talk. CorporateM (Talk) 01:21, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Your article changes are well-intentioned and you seem to understand the policies. I fixed a couple of spelling errors in User:CorporateM/WhitePages. Your draft is missing a couple of images. See where it says '175 px' in the infobox, and look at the image box for the 'Services' section. In my opinion your new draft is better than the current article text. The existing article says nothing about the VentureBeat criticisms and the new draft at least mentions what Matt Marshall said. Nothing would be lost if you replaced the current article text with your draft. Further improvement can go from there. EdJohnston (talk) 02:25, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Yah, the images are non-free images that I can't fill-in until it's moved to article-space - one of the many not-so-smooth aspects of contributing in a fashion that Wikipedia was never really built around. I'll quote your comments there and make a Request Edit. If it gets implemented, I'll point out the issue again to the GA reviewer eventually, whenever they get around to reviewing it. CorporateM (Talk) 03:28, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I submitted a Request Edit if you care to do the honors, unless you want me to get more feedback or ask someone else, etc.. Alternatively, I can also make the edit myself if you give me a {{request edit|g}} confirming it is acceptable for me to do so. CorporateM (Talk) 13:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Can I bug you for another or have I exhausted my welcome yet? Totally ok if you're all petered out ;-) CorporateM (Talk) 17:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead. EdJohnston (talk) 19:57, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I have a very small request here regarding an article I have already brought up to the GA standard. However, since I originally updated it, they made an acquisition, went through a rebrand and introduced new products. CorporateM (Talk) 00:36, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Replied at Talk:Hightail#A few updates. EdJohnston (talk) 14:30, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I've asked User:SlimVirgin here for an opinion on whether it is acceptable for me to make the move myself after you've said it is ok to do so. There are a few RfCs circulating on a paid editing policy and there does not seem to be consensus around whether someone in my position could make such an edit even after being given the go-ahead. Anyways, if I'm not bothering you too much, I also need some help on the Monster (company) page and have been bugging a few editors about it without response. It's only been a few days, but if you have the time/interest to help out, I can get it ready for a GAN that much faster. CorporateM (Talk) 16:57, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved the article to WhitePages (company). If it turns out that someone disagrees we can open a formal move discussion on the article talk, using the {{requested move}} template. EdJohnston (talk) 01:09, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Terry Pratchett reflist; invalid ISBN backlog

Ed, I fixed some problems in the Terry Pratchett reflist (diffs) prior to reporting what I thought might be a bug, or inept feature, in the generation of the special page notice.

Having made those fixes (among other things), I linked to a previous version for purpose of report at Category talk: Articles with invalid ISBNs#Appearance in reflist, but you should visit the current version Terry Pratchett for other purposes.

Regarding the huge backlog of invalid ISBN, perhaps other categories may be used to help set priorities. For one example, the intersection of categories Articles with invalid ISBNs and Good articles may be worth special attention. (The Pratchett biography would have been in that intersection this week.) Unfortunately I often experience "time out" or a server problem using category intersection tools, and now is one of those times. --P64 (talk) 19:33, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Is it conceivable that a bot could fix the invalid ISBNs? EdJohnston (talk) 16:00, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Yet another colourful thread in life's rich tapestry?

Thanks for the normality / rationality / objectiveness / etc. of your behaviour whilst I've been absent. This is very much appreciated by me, (not only for its specific impact on me and the circumstances related to me and my current "events", but much more importantly), for restoring the faith of people like me in the fact that there are still some people left on Wikipedia who can see past the boundaries of their own ego and their own self importance.
(Sorry if that sounds like a political statement, it is not intended to be - I'm trying to say that it's good to see that there are still people around like you who appear to think that improving the encyclopaedia is more important than being "right". Sadly, it appears to me that people like you are rather few, and rather far between.)
It would seem I am in your debt. Please feel free to recoup that obligation whenever it suits you. Meanwhile ... Thank you! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:46, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't perceive either a question or an answer here, so I don't know what to say. EdJohnston (talk) 16:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Response by User:Uscbubblegirl

Ed, This is crazy. PaulMcDonald reported me for warring on an Aaron Jack page. You then said I had to stay away for seven days! Why? All of my new edits are accurate and I did not delete anything after I was to not delete. Adding new information that is accurate should not be something you have a problem with! Do not block me! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uscbubblegirl (talk • contribs) 17:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Ed, You are wrong! First, I cited an article and I sourced it. You have no right to delete that information! Secondly, every single thing posted was accurate! Ed- I am AARON JACK's attorney. Quit deleting Aaron's bio information that I post. You are choosing to highlight a defamatory political "hit piece" article and citing it as if it is an objective news article. That is unethical editing and you know it. You are now willfully walking a fine line on the edge of defamation. What you are doing can not be justified simply as strict rules regarding a biographical website. My client will sue you if you block our truthful edits to Aaron Jack's wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uscbubblegirl (talk • contribs) 18:41, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I assure you that editing my client's wiki bio is NOT malicious. If it was I would lose my law license! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uscbubblegirl (talk • contribs) 18:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Question about my Tumbleman AE close

• Tumbleman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hi Ed,

I closed the Tumbleman AE request as consensus of five admins for an indef block per WP:NOTHERE. I didn't weigh in, I just assessed consensus and closed it. I applied the indef block, and marked it as an AE block. However I am now concerned that the result is improper. The article affected is under WP:ARB/PS, which is now Standard Discretionary Sanctions. Quoting from the background on those, the maximum sanction allowed is: "The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length." I looked through the past year or so of AE results and I did not find one that resulted in an AE indef block. It would seem that if we wanted to apply an indef block per NOTHERE, it can't be an AE enforcement block, it has to be a "so-and-so admin imposed an indef per WP:NOTHERE", and the bar to appeal and overturn that is much lower. To appeal an AE block, you have to appeal to ArbCom. To appeal a block instituted by an admin, you post a standard unblock template on your User Talk, and any passing admin can handle it. What happened is a "consensus of 5 admins" block, which isn't really any kind of category of block I am aware of. I see you supported an indef block for Tumbleman, and also you're one of the most active admins at AE. Can you give me your opinion on this -- is this indef block valid as an AE action, or does it need to be changed to "Zad68 (as an individual admin) blocked per WP:NOTHERE"?

Thanks... Zad68 18:13, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• If you can't find a diff that suggests Tumbleman was aware of WP:ARBPS you should consider modifying your block notice on his page to indicate that it's a conventional indefinite block. Then he can apply for unblock through the usual block appeal channels. Generally an admin can close an AE with a conventional (non arb-based) sanction but then whatever the admin chooses to do is appealable at AN or ANI, and doesn't have immunity to reversal by a single admin.

• If you think the situation is too unclear, just undo your closure of the AE and wait for someone else to act. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 18:31, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks Ed. I think the consensus of that discussion was certainly clear enough that the block should be applied, but just the status of the block needed to be changed. I have changed the block message, struck out the AE block message on his User Talk, and replaced it with a standard "conventional" block message. Zad68 19:06, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• I have also undone the close of the AE discussion, leaving for another to close. Zad68 19:13, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

User:NovaSkola

• NovaSkola (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello there. This user was topic-banned (WP:TBAN) from everything related to Armenia or Azerbaijan for six months on 2 June 2013. On 8 July, the user was blocked by you for a month for creating Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. However, after the block expired, the user continues to edit articles that are in violation of the ban, including Azerbaijan, Azerbaijan national football team, Meykhana, Mugham, Azerbaijanis in Russia, etc. The user also created List of Azerbaijani inventions and discoveries on 12 October. --Երևանցի ^talk 15:58, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Most likely a block should be issued to cover the rest of the topic ban period (through 2 December 2013). I prefer not to be the only admin taking action on this case, so please make a request at WP:AE or ask another admin familiar with WP:ARBAA2. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC) See my revised comment below. EdJohnston (talk) 16:53, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I understand. Thank you! --Երևանցի ^talk 16:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, he is only writing about general Azerbaijan topics and sports, so I personally don't think it's a problem. The Black Garden article was certainly about the AA conflict, so that block was needed, but at the moment I don't see any reason to take action myself. It was Sandstein who chose the extra-strong wording of 'everything related to Armenia and Azerbaijan.' Sandstein also gave him a sports exception on 10 June 2013 that is recorded in WP:ARBAA2. You could ask User:Sandstein what he thinks. EdJohnston (talk) 16:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

that's a good idea. I will ask him now. --Երևանցի ^talk 16:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Khojaly Massacre

Ed, could u please look at here. I wrote to Sandstein but he didn't reply

I want to ask is someone can remove normal reference by just saying fake? Due I've noticed in here, perfect reference has been removed without constructive discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Khojaly_Massacre&diff=575301927&oldid=575301252

--NovaSkola (talk) 23:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

NovaSkola, the Khojaly Massacre was part of the AA conflict. Your topic ban restricts you from all discussion of it, even here on this page. So please don't keep asking about it. Your ban expires on 2 December. EdJohnston (talk) 01:57, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Question from User talk:Berniebrew

Attention Ed:

Back in February you stepped in and provided protection on a template. Here are your entries.

(cur | prev) 04:00, 19 February 2013‎ EdJohnston (talk | contribs)‎ . . (14,779 bytes) (+27)‎ . . (Add semiprotection template) (thank) (cur | prev) 03:59, 19 February 2013‎ EdJohnston (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (14,752 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Protected Bob Uecker: Persistent sock puppetry: Requested at WP:RFPP ([Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 03:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)) [Move=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 03:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)))) (thank)

There is currently someone by the Editing User Name Delaywaves that has gone in and added our copyrighted PRESSWIRE photo. I tried to post this on a discussion page to have it corrected, but the Rivertorch talker is back at it and is mistaken.

Here is the entry below that shows that Delaywaves added the photo:

(cur | prev) 18:47, 14 September 2013‎ Delaywaves (talk | contribs)‎ . . (15,222 bytes) (+62)‎ . . (Add photo.) (thank) (cur | prev) 08:00, 29 July 2013‎ Mdumas43073 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (15,160 bytes) (+12)‎ . . (→‎Acting roles) (thank)

Here is the PRESSWIRE photo we asked to have removed. Can you assist?

Uecker at Miller Park, 2011. Photo from Wikimedia Commons, uploaded by Steven Paluch

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Berniebrew (talk • contribs) 00:25, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Berniebrew. If you believe this photo is from Presswire, can you provide evidence? For example a link to where it can be found on the web? There is a related photo of Bob Uecker (taken at the same game, in the same pose, holding a baseball in his raised hand) at this Uspresswire link, a photo which is credited to Jerry Lai. You can tell that it's a completely different shot, though. The one in our article is from Wikimedia Commons, where it was uploaded by User:Spaluch1, who says he took the photo himself. If you believe you are the copyright owner you can use Commons:OTRS to assert your claim. Warring with other editors on the article is unlikely to be effective. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 02:21, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: 3rr.php script not working

Sorry, didn't see this until now. E-mailed them. I coulda sworn it was every 6 months, but every time they help me renew it, they make it substantially shorter (like 2 or something) and it never lets me actually renew it until the deadline's right on top of me in the first place. :\ Bleh. --slakr^\ talk / 11:17, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I wonder if 3rr.php will be affected by the move of some tools to the WMF Labs. EdJohnston (talk) 14:11, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe

My name was added to a list within this article arbitration. I do not watch this article and don't recall ever editing it. I have no interest in the article. Nor am I interested in being part of the arbitration process.

It was added with the phrase "known genocide-denier." This label is false. The Holocaust happened. It was genocide.

I do not believe in negatively labeling people and avoid doing that.

Details of dispute

This appears to be a retaliatory measure for reporting Wikibullying at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Intimidation_of_newbie_88.104.219.76 The Administrator's noticeboard.

Which, in turn, came out of an attempt by myself, the now-disappeared newbie, and another editor to place a minority opinion in the article, Genocides in history, with cites from three scholarly authors with bios in Wikipedia, whose names I came across because they were at the top of a search list. I never heard of any of them before.

I was attempting to rm my name from the arbitration list per normal vandalism templates, having exhausted all others means. The editor informed me that "anyone" can put a name on this list, after I reverted him several times. He did not mention that earlier. While inconsistent with his previous behavior, the material looked like standard vandalism to me: unsubstantiated, incorrect material in the wrong place.

I do not think that it is a good idea to allow just anyone to maintain a personal blacklist or list of enemies as part of a personal vendetta. I'm not even sure a group of admins should do that without some discussion first.

Other examples of ownership

The only other area I've encountered a stone wall, with no toleration for dissent were the Venezuelan articles. I haven't checked since his death, but nothing was allowed to be said that was detrimental to Hugo Chavez. I had to stop editing. But, in their favor, there was no enemies list. Having said that, one of the "citations" in the Genocides in history article came from Chavez! I was permitted to remove him, after getting no support for the cite on the discussion page. Anytime an editor tried to enter an npov substantiated change that was not flattering, someone blew a whistle and suddenly you were on the wrong end of a "consensus." Cites from the Washington Post and NY Times were listed as pov, because they were "running dogs of US Imperialism," doubtless a surprise to their readers and critics.

I am not interested in being part of this arbitration. I do not know, nor care to know, what it is about. It would be true irony indeed if I were banned for life from Wikipedia for appearing on a list for arbitration on an article in which I had expressed no interest whatever, and which was placed there by someone with an axe to grind.

My discussion page is unedited. The usual collection of people who think I'm okay and people who think I'm an idiot. They are both right and wrong to a degree.

I'm older than most editors, and try my best to avoid conflicts by waiting as long as possible to go through my watchlist. Usually vandalism is caught by someone else by the time I get there, which is a great relief for me. I've done this for years and had totally forgotten about the 1RR rule. By the time I get back to the article page, often five days later, I reverted again, if necessary. This time, my name was imbedded in the vandalism, so it was at the top of the page. I forgot. I was wrong.

I expect no slack. Just let me know what general set of articles are off limits to minority substantiated opinions. I've lived with a ban on Venezuela. I can live with a ban on all genocide articles and all Armenian articles. I do edit a few articles on violence. Would that be okay? Just let me know. Student7 (talk) 15:06, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

It looks like you've made a number of reverts at Genocides in history. Most likely User:Darkness Shines believes your edits there are covered by the ARBEE topic. I suggest that nobody make any further reverts there without a talk page consensus. As of now you are only notified under WP:ARBEE but not sanctioned. If you are willing to step back from genocide issues for the moment it's unlikely that anyone will complain. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Exactly Ed, I notified him because of his slow mo edit warring fringe material into the article, and using known genocide deniers as sources, everything is on the talk page for all to see. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:ARBPIA

Ed, thanks for your comments at Sandstein's talk page. In my view, the best option is to update the template listed on the case decision page to more closely match the most current amended decision. Although both of the templates you listed are better than {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, neither is quite right. Failing changing the template, it would be helpful (and easy) to list the two other templates as options on the case decision page. What do you think?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:42, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

It's risky to edit the case itself. I remember the sequence of events since 2012 and it's kind of twisty. Take a look at this old version from January 2012 for comparison. In that version it's evident that 'General 1RR restriction' gives the result of a community discussion which was held at this page in late 2010. If you think that the warning template ought to be updated, why not wait under Arbcom finishes their Discretionary Sanctions review and then ask a clerk what the best way would be to go about it. I suspect a proposal at WP:AN is best if the Arbcom clerks don't object. The underlying issue is that Arbcom itself is usually reluctant to impose a general 1RR across a broad topic. Due to an amendment request in March 2012, they tweaked the wording of the community's 1RR. If all else fails a request at ARCA should fix whatever concerns you, but the committee sometimes goes in circles if you ask them something very technical. They are more suited to 'big picture' questions. EdJohnston (talk) 00:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to take a look at this later. I gotta go eat dinner, and I'll be yelled at if I'm late.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

It was a great dinner. I had already looked at the links you provided above. Despite a certain amount of confusion on the case page as to the current sanctions, I think it's clear that the 1RR restriction applies to all articles in the topic area (here). I think the first bullet point that was struck and apparently amended in the same section could be clearer but that relates only to vandalism. The only remaining issue is the template. I suppose I could wait until the discretionary sanctions review is complete - assuming I remember to bring this up at that time. As for the template, I don't think it's a big deal to update that section of the case page, but I'll defer to your more cautious judgment and leave it alone. I'll just start using one of the other templates you pointed out at Sandstein's page.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Back in the day, I used to propose my edits to case pages to User:NuclearWarfare (when he was a clerk) and between us we managed to get some routine updates in. There is a magic force field that deters ordinary editing of case pages (at least in my mind). Also, templates cited by cases. EdJohnston (talk) 00:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sounds very mystical/sci-fi. If anyone can destroy a force field, it should be an editor with a handle like NW.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:02, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

When you look at an old case closely enough you are bound to find inconsistencies or things that are not quite right. Certainly there are things that would not be done the same way now. I remember the WP:TROUBLES case which was very confusing. Luckily most of the problems are now fixed. EdJohnston (talk) 01:39, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The force field is really only in Ed's mind :)

You guys are both experienced admins who work in AE; I don't think anyone would mind if you did basic cleanup on those pages if you let someone know ahead of time (or post-hoc). Or became a clerk (I know Ed has declined many times, but Bbb23, I'm sure the clerks would love to have you). NW (Talk) 02:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

While I ponder NW's suggestion that I do more work (I already feel a wee bit stretched, particularly since becoming a trainee clerk at SPI), I have a question for Ed: why did you decline "many times"?--Bbb23 (talk) 01:12, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I might reconsider in the future. EdJohnston (talk) 02:04, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Hopefully, it wasn't your wife who popped the question. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 02:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm trying to limit the number of things I do on WP that may cause aggravation and require patience. Of course actually writing articles is lower-stress than adminning disputes so maybe I should do more of that. It could be time for more improvements at Cell encapsulation. EdJohnston (talk) 02:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

SPI Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/AndresHerutJaim

In regards to an edit by User:Rogttender who was then blocked as a SP, it seems User:Gate 86 has only made edits to that page alone with no other history. Could this be a spock?(Lihaas (talk) 13:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)).

Question about reducing size in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Cavann

Hello. I am not sure how to reduce the size as I am trying to draw attention to the behaviour of 3 editors working as a team in addition to responding claims against myself. Should I file a separate case? Would limiting my response to 1500 words and 60 diffs (500 words and 20 diffs for each editor reported in addition to my response) be reasonable? I can also always refrain from editing Wikipedia, except ARBCOM case, to give administrators more time to review the case? Cavann ^(talk) 18:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Why not simply reply to the complaints about your own editing. Everything is expected to follow the conduct policies regardless of what others do. (WP:NOTTHEM makes a similar point). If admins believe that sanctions for others should be considered but they need more information to decide, they could ask for more statements. EdJohnston (talk) 19:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)