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More needs to be said about the issues raised by the 20/20 investigation.-- LKS 5/13/06

I think this article is biased due to its allegations that Matthew Shepard was an innocent man; he was a crystal meth dealer who was killed for his inability to pay the men who eventually killed him; it is through his own indecisiveness that he met with his demise.

Any sources on this? --dionyziz 17:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Claims like this are often made against Matthew, and none have been factually corroborated. CaveatLector 05:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If this was true, why did the defense attempt to use the Gay Panic Defense? The Meth BS presented by Elizabeth Vargas sounds more like a Twinkie Defense. --Belinus 01:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Christian bullshit. And even if someone is a dealer, does this justify murder?

Please don't bring your biases against a particular group of people onto Wikipedia. There are many Christians that were appalled by the actions of those two men.

I think this article should contain a paragraph about the scale of international candle lit vigils. The aftershock section focuses on the celebrity reaction, which has the effect of making the protests by Phelps look similar in size to the support from Ellen - and I think that's inaccurate. For sheer numbers (if not media attention) the outpouring of support for Matthew dwarfed the anti-gay crowd. --Camipco 04:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

An event mentioned in this article is an October 6 selected anniversary.

I removed this:

A friend of Shepard's created "The Angel Line". Now, when Phelps protests in various towns at funerals of AIDS victims or slaughtered homosexuals, individuals assemble a circle around them wearing white robes and gigantic wings that literally block the protesters from the view of passers-by.

Neither Google nor InfoTrac finds anything about ("Angel Line" and "Fred Phelps") or ("Angel Line" and "Matthew Shepard"). So I would like to see some confirmation before putting this information back into the article. AxelBoldt 18:09 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

Here's a cite: [1] . They also figure in the play The Laramie Project. Here's an article [2] about a more recent anti-Phelps angel action in Idaho. Montréalais

Great, thanks. It seems the group called itself "Angels of Peace", and searching for that phrase gives a lot more hits. However, I cannot verify that the tactic was used at the funeral, only at the court hearing. See for instance [3]. AxelBoldt 03:35 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

not a hate crime?

20/20 recently interviewed principles in the case, including the prosecutor, who say that the murder was done for robbery in order to get drug money, and that Shepard knew the two killers before the night of his murder. The defense decided to argue that Shepard "came on" to the two, which infuriated them into a frenzied state in which they couldn't control their actions.

I'm not familiar with all of the details and sources, but someone who is should do a major update to this entry, about the truth of the horrendous act, yet how it has helped equal rights activists nonetheless. 54MP0 X 70RG0 05:52, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd be wary about labelling the 20/20 allegations as "the truth of the horrendous act" at the moment, especially as the propositions made in the documentary have been widely disputed by many involved in the original case (indeed, they claim that the convicted murderers contradict statements they made during the original trial process). I agree, however, that the dispute ought to be covered either within the original article or a related one. As a UK resident who hasn't had the benefit of seeing the 20/20 documentary, it'd be best left to someone who has, though. User:smatthewman

Does anyone else think "hate crime" is too much of an inherently POV, loaded term? An example of controlling terminology in order to control the debate? It seems akin to the practice of using "unborn child" when one is referring to a blastocyst or zygote. Cigarette 23:39, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Um. Maybe there should be two pages for Matthew Shepard, one for his life, which is worth more than a paragraph, and one for the details of the attack. This page seems to be too focused on his death. Maybe a separation is in order? -Ross, 16 of May, 2005

It's appropriate given that the only reason he's known is because of his murder. Exploding Boy 00:31, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I've read somewhere that Matthew Sheppard was killed because of a drug deal gone bad. The "hate crime" angle was exaggerated for personal agenda and for media coverage because major news agencies wouldn't report on a "common" drug deal gone awry. Do these statements have any factual basis?

No, they do not. The killers used "gay panic" as their defence in court. They did not say it was a drug deal gone bad. They said he had come onto them and they had beaten him to death for doing it because it had made them insane. The drug deal story was concocted later. -- Grace Note.

- - Regardless of what the killers used as their defense in court, and regardless of the beliefs of those who edit at Wikipedia, crimes against one based solely on their sexual orientation DO NOT constitute a Hate Crime. Thus it is inappropriate and false to include him in the hate crimes section or to mention this as a hate crime. Personal thoughts and feelings are supposed to be absent from these pages and they're supposed to represent pure and undisputed fact. The pure and undisputed fact here is that at the time the murders were committed and to this day, there was no legislation on the books that would consitute this a hate crime. Thus, it should not be included on the page.
    - See Hate Crime. Crimes committed against someone "solely" on the basis of their sexual orientation qualify. This act is widely cited as a hate crime, and prompted federal legislation. It is quite neutral to portray it as it is understood. Srcastic 17:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- - - - If you look closely at the Hate Crime page you will see that it does indeed exclude sexual orientation in the following paragraph...As of October 2001, the federal hate crime law 18 USC 245 (b)(2), passed in 1969, protects religion, race and national origin, and applies only if the victim is engaged in one of six protected activities. Seven states have no hate crime laws, 20 states have hate crime laws that do not protect sexual orientation, and 24 states have hate crime laws that include sexual orientation. I am fairly certain that Wyoming is one of the 20 states that does not include sexual orientation as a basis for a hate crime. Thus, if the following are true, and Wyoming does not recognize it as a hate crime, the articles inclusion in the "Hate Crime" category is inappropriate and non-neutral. Additionally, I believe court and official documents from the trial clearly show that this was not classified as a "Hate Crime" under Wyoming law. As well, the official court transcripts do now show that the killers acted "solely" on the basis of sexual orientation. Several defenses were used at trial. I again reiterate that this articles inclusion in the "Hate Crime" category is inappropriate.

- - - - The start of Hate Crime states "Hate crimes are crimes (such as violent crime, hate speech or vandalism) that are motivated by feelings of hostility against any identifiable group of people within a society. If systematic, rather than spontaneous, instigators of such crimes are sometimes organized into hate groups." That broad definition of hate crime certainly includes crimes motivated by animus towards homosexuals. See also Merriam Webster's definition, and Dictionary.com's definitions, which explicitly include sexual orientation. That a statute does not happen to include sexual orientation in the scope does not detract from the term's common understanding, usage, or definition. The inclusion in the Hate Crime category is thus entirely appropriate, and efforts to stifle this mere cross reference cannot be couched on an overly technical reading of the term, when the term itself is not so defined in Wikipedia. Srcastic 23:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the rest of this talk page below. There is a possible NPOV way to say all of this and add everyone's points. Rather than debate the subject, we can try and work together to come up with an NPOV way of stating everyone's points. -- Samuel Wantman 00:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that there is a neutral point of view way to post that some people consider this crime to be a hate crime. But listing it in the hate crime section with the current law in Wyoming clearly void of any mention of sexual orientation is both misleading and inaccurate. It would not be included in an Encyclopedia Brittanica article, thus it should not be included here.

Shepard's murder touched off a tremendous national debate about hate crime. You cannot possibly believe that his death has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of hate crimes. Putting his name in Category:Hate crimes has nothing to do with the fact that the murderers were or were not convicted of a hate crime. Policy on categorization, says that articles should be placed in categories if the topic is discussed in the article. Categories are not a stict taxonomy. If you look in Category:George W. Bush you will find The Pet Goat. The Pet Goat is in Bush's category, not because the book is about Bush, but because Bush is discussed in the article, and its claim to fame was related to Bush. Let's assume that next week there is incontivertible evidence revealed that the convicted murderers of Shepard were framed, and Shepard worked for the CIA and was killed by terrorists. This article should STILL belong in Category:Hate crimes because of national controversy and discussion that has already taken place. -- Samuel Wantman 06:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This was not a hate crime so it is dishonest and inaccurate to include it in the category of hate crimes. Doing so only perpetuates the myth that it was a hate crime. Everything else is irrelevant. --SpinyNorman 08:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This WAS a hate crime, regardless of what do you think about it. And, per arguments above, it is also regardless of what is written in statute, because hate crime is a broad term, including sexual orientation too. 88.155.95.43 07:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Republican majority

Is it necessary to emphasize the Republican majority of the House of Representatives for the hate crime legislation bill, for purposes of neutrality?

The information is relevant. The Republican party's stance is indeed against homosexuality being considered a hate crime (and, in fact, I believe they're against hate crimes in general). So, it adds context. I don't quite see how it's POV. —BorgHunter (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The information is not relevant in that a measure in congress is not listed as "defeated by the republicans" or "defeated by the democrats." It is listed as "defeated by a majority."

State the vote in a NPOV way. I don't know the details, but say "in a senate vote, X democrats joining (all?) Y republicans to defeat the bill." Another possibility is to reference a different article that discusses the vote. -- Samuel Wantman 04:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea, my initial thoughts are that the questionable material was included as a political statement. Further, the argument that "I believe they're against hate crimes in general" should be included in an article about the republican parties political stance, not in a biographical article such as this.

Protected

Please work out your differences here on the talk page, and remember to follow the rules. · Katefan0^(scribble)/mrp 21:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hate crime?

I don't know whether Shepard was killed because he was gay or not. If his murder was the result of homophobia, then on a personal level (as a gay person), I hope everybody would unite in condemning it even more than a drug-related murder. Regardless, I have to agree that the inclusion of a category called "hate" crimes seems rather, well, POV. Maybe a term like "identity-related crimes" or something like that would be more appropriate. Corax 22:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My only point here is that if his murderers weren't convicted of a hate crime, then his murder can't be called a hate crime. Wikipedia is supposed to be in the business of reporting facts, not popular misconceptions. I agree that his murder was tragic and his murderers reprehensible. Whether or not he was targetted because he was gay, and there is conflicting evidence on that, he was certainly targetted because he was smaller and appeared to be weaker than his attackers. --SpinyNorman 00:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spiny, you miss the point. The reason that they were not convicted of a hate crime is becuase under current law crimes done on the basis of sexual orientation are not classified that way. If sexual orientation would have been included they wuld have given the jury convicted the two based on testimonty from the girlfriends stating the two plotted to pose as homosexuals. The court found premeditated - not random. 144.35.254.12 23:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that they were not convicted of hate crimes. The reason why is irrelevant. The fact that Shepard's attackers were found guilty of a premeditated act doesn't mean they committed a hate crime. Lots of premeditated crimes against gays are not "hate crimes". --SpinyNorman 16:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please see my comment above. It is possible for both concerns to be incorporated into a paragraph that is NPOV. Something like this...

Even though the murderers were not convicted of a hate crime, the case is often considered a hate crime because court testimony claimed that Matthew Shepard was targeted on the basis of his sexual orientation [citations here calling it a hate crime]; . Under federal United States law and Wyoming state law, crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation are not considered hate crimes [citation here]. Shortly after the murder President Bill Clinton tried to push legislation through Congress adding sexual orientation to the hate crimes law. The measure was defeated [citation here].

--Samuel Wantman 02:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The prosecutor charged that Matthew's killers plotted beforehand to pose as homosexual to rob one. The court found them guilty. They targeted homosexuals, on the basis of their sexual orientation. The only reason it is not officialy a hate crime is because current laws do not includes sexual orientation. That is exactly why his death resulted in a push to include it. 144.35.254.12 23:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like Samuel's proposal. 144.35.254.12 23:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we can reach consensus on the paragraph, I can unblock the page. I'm just here trying to facilitate. Citations are still needed, and the parties who have been reverting each other need to agree on the wording. -- Samuel Wantman 07:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You can't say "often considered a hate crime" because that's an editorial comment. You could say "some consider the attack to be a hate crime" - that would be neutral, but it doesn't really matter in the end because what some people consider isn't really relevant. The fact is that it wasn't a hate crime. Calling it a hate crime is factually incorrect. --SpinyNorman 16:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"You can't say 'often considered a hate crime' because that's an editorial comment." Say what? If you can get several citations, from different points in time, then it's not an editorial comment, it's a statement of fact. (As someone who has kept tabs on items about this murder since I wrote about it at the time, I can assure you that finding such references will not be difficult, because it is often considered a hate crime.) "As often as not" might be an editorial comment, but that's not what it says. --TreyHarris 18:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is. The word "often" is judgmental. You could say "some consider it the attack to be motivated by Shepard's sexuality" if you had several references, and that would not be editorial. But there is another problem with the phrase: whether people "consider it a hate crime" is irrelevant. Some people also consider it a "public service" to attack gays. The opinions of individuals are not relevant in this context. The term "hate crime" has a specific legal meaning. You can't say it was a "hate crime" any more than you can say that it was "jaywalking" or "money laundering". --SpinyNorman 18:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The word "often" is judgmental." Wikipedia is not a search for the Perfectly Objective Truth. (The viewpoint that such a thing as Perfectly Objective Truth even exists is itself not NPOV.) Just because the word "often" requires a minor judgment call, just because there are no values n, m such that n per m is "often" but n-1 per m is "not often", does not mean that the word "often" is inherently POV. "Often" is defined as "frequently; many times." If we can show (and we can) through citations that various people have considered this a hate crime "many times" or "frequently", then it is "often considered a hate crime". We're about to descend into metaphysics here; this is ridiculous. --TreyHarris 21:01, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The fact is that it wasn't a hate crime." Do I understand your argument correctly: you're saying that, because neither Henderson nor McKinney were convicted of violating a statute popularly known as a "hate crime", it can factually be said that the act was not a hate crime, correct? --TreyHarris 18:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is worth noting that the FBI would consider it a hate crime for reporting purposes, as they explicitly track sexual orientation motivated crimes. Please see my comments in the above section to the effect that hate crime's broad definition, along Merriam Webster's definition, and Dictionary.com's definitions, explicitly and implicitly include sexual orientation in the meaning of hate crime. I would support "often considered a hate crime" over "some consider it to be a hate crime," as that is perfectly consistent with Wikipedia's stated goal of including "notable perspectives ... without an attempt to determine an objective truth". Other support for "often considered" would include references to media outlets and foundations like MTV, the BBC, and the Matthew Shepard Foundation. Also, see major newspaper articles, including:

McGhee, Tom. "Summit Focus on LGBT Workers." The Denver Post, September 22, 2005: C-04
Killeen, Wendy. "Stories, Music, Magic." The Boston Globe, December 04, 2005: pg. 13
Spencer, Charles. "Bigotry in the Backwoods." The Daily Telegraph, June 28, 2005 London Edition: Arts pg. 017
Cooperman, Alan. "Christian Groups Plan More Monuments." The Washington Post, June 28, 2005. pg. A06.
Shuttleworth, Ian. "The Laramie Project - Sound Theatre." The Financial Times, July 1, 2005. Pg. 15.

The above demonstrate fairly conclusively that Shepards murder was a hate crime, as commonly understood, though perhaps not under the law at the time in the jurisdiction. It is worth mentioning that there is controversy over labeling the murder as a hate crime, and that can be reflected on the hate crime page. Nonetheless, NPOV certainly supports its inclusion. Srcastic 00:21, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "most people consider it a hate crime" is inherently POV. The person using this phrase is using an "appeal to the majority" argument to claim that it was a hate crime with the implication that hate crimes are somehow worse than identical crimes that were not motivated by prejudice. Yet the question of whether or not it was a hate crime can be answered asbolutely and objectively. Were Shepard's attackers convicted of a hate crime? The answer to that question is not subject to interpretation or the whim of public opinion. It could be stated that a number of people believe that they should have been convicted of a hate crime or that US federal law included attacks on gays as being within the scope of a hate crime. But the fact remains that Shepard's murder was not prodecuted as a hate crime and that the girlfriend of one of the attackers has stated that the attack was not motivated by Shepard's sexuality but by the fact that he was small, weak and appeared to be someone who had a lot of money on them. And as an editorial note of my own, I'd like to know why a murder committed by bigots is worse than a murder committed by bullies/cowards. --SpinyNorman 17:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC) Please note that your comment in response to mine mischaracterizes my argument. I did not say that we should say "most people." Rather, I said it should be referred to as "often considered" which merely acknowledges reality. Srcastic 02:08, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I repeat my question. Do I understand your argument correctly: you're saying that, because neither Henderson nor McKinney were convicted of violating a statute popularly known as a "hate crime", it can factually be said that the act was not a hate crime, correct? --TreyHarris 21:01, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying that since Shepard's attackers were not convicted of a hate crime, it is inaccurate to say that they were. --SpinyNorman 01:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And again, you fail to seperate the legal definition from the popular understanding, Wikipedia definition, and dictionary definations. No one is contending that it should say they were convicted of a hate crime, but certainly it is NPOV to state that they are widely understood, though contentiously so, to be perpetrators of a hate crime (meaning crime motivated by bias, not legal definition). Please engage with the Wikipedia purpose of reflecting widely held views without seeking to portray objective truth instead of merely restating your opinion. Srcastic 02:05, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Popular understanding (aka popular ignorance) is irrelevant in an encyclopedia. This article must reported what ACTUALLY happened - not what some people wish would have happened as though it actually did happen. --SpinyNorman 00:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's try a different tact here. I am copying my proposed paragraph below. Could we start by just ADDING to it any points of view about the crime being a hate crime. Let me be clear. I don't want you to add YOUR point of view, I want people to add POV's that can be cited, and add the POV's in as NPOV way as you can. For now, let's agree not to discuss these individually, but just make the paragraph as complete as possible. Afterwards, we can talk about how to edit it down to something we all agree represents the varying opinions about this issue. I want to reiterate again that we are not deciding the correct POV of this issue is. We are just laying out what the issues are, and what the different citable POVs are.

Even though the murderers were not convicted of a hate crime, the case has been called a hate crime by [gay rights groups and some media reports (this should be adjusted to match the citations)] because court testimony claimed that Matthew Shepard was targeted on the basis of his sexual orientation [citations here calling it a hate crime]; . Under federal United States law and Wyoming state law, crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation are not considered hate crimes [citation here]. Shortly after the murder President Bill Clinton tried to push legislation through Congress adding sexual orientation to the hate crimes law. The measure was defeated [citation here].

So what needs to be added to this? -- Samuel Wantman 22:14, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because there are statements from witnesses in the case that Shepard was not targetted because of his sexuality, the phrase "because court testimony claimed that Matthew Shepard was targeted on the basis of his sexual orientation" shouldn't be included unless there are excerpts from the court record that support the claim. Also, the statement about president Clinton and federal hate crimes legislation is irrelevant. Shepard's attackers weren't prosecuted by the federal government and the federal law wouldn't have applied to this case even if it had been in effect. --SpinyNorman 01:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The reasons should match whatever the citations are. I am not participating in the editing of this page, just facilitating. If there are citations (which I believe there many) talking about this case being a hate crime, the citations will have the reasons. You cannot claim that the people making the claims IN THE CITATION are wrong, and since they are wrong, their statements and the controversy that resulted should not be mentioned. This would be revisionist. You can find citations that counter the claims. Your claim that the hate crimes legislation "is irrelevant" would be true if someone cannot produce a citation that connects the legislation to the case. I believe that will also be an easy citation to find. You can find counter claims with citations and add them. Everyone needs to back up claims with citations. I wrote the paragraph with the assumption that these citations will be found. -- Samuel Wantman 02:14, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So we apparently agree. If there are excerpts from the court record where witnesses offer testimony that Shepard was targetted because of his sexuality, then those can be reported here. However, the bare statement "Shepard was targetted because of his sexuality" shouldn't be included without that supporting evidence, especially in light of the claims by the attackers and the girlfriend that this was not the case. As for the comments on the legislation being relevant, we evidently agree on that as well. It should only be mentioned if someone can produce evidence that federal law is connected with Wyoming state law (which, in this case, it is not). Ergo, the mention of federal hate-crime legislation is not relevant. If, however, the Shepard case had a direct effect on Wyoming legislation, that would be relevant and should probably be mentioned. --SpinyNorman 05:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me be clear. We are not retrying the case on this page. If someone produces a citation that says "_____ considers this a hate crime because ______", it is a legit cite and can be used. If the reasons put forward in the cite are in error, the cite can STILL be used. If you want to refute the cite with another cite you can and should. BOTH cites may be used. If someone produces a cite that says that the case led directly or indirectly to the push for federal legislation, that can be use also. If you find a cite that states there is no connection, BOTH cites may be used.

If someone says "The Earth is flat because _________", would that be a "legit cite"? I don't think so. The question of whether or not this is a hate crime isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Shepard's murderers were not convicted of a hate crime, ergo the murder was not a hate crime. --SpinyNorman 09:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

YES! absolutely. If I were writing about Colombus, I would not remove text about those that worried that he would fall off the earth. Also, in this case there is more than one meaning of hate crime and you are insisting that we only consider conviction under Wyoming law as the only possible meaning of hate crime. That makes no sense, especially when the paragraph I have proposed makes it clear that they were not convicted of a hate crime and why. -- Samuel Wantman 09:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your logic escapes me. It is like saying that the 1963 Civil Rights March in Washington, had nothing to do with the Civil Rights legislation that followed because laws are made by congress and not by protesters. Wyoming is part of the U.S. the last I checked. The case got NATIONAL attention, and if that attention led to FEDERAL legislation it SHOULD be mentioned in this article. -- Samuel Wantman 06:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're overlooking an important difference. The federal hate-crimes law doesn't tell states how to prosecute their criminals. --SpinyNorman 09:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it led to higher gasoline prices it would be relevant. If the legislation was related even indirectly to this case, it is worth mentioning. Please try to make constructive changes and work collaboratively. -- Samuel Wantman

Indeed not, however if the federal government did have such a LGBT hate-crime law, they could choose to prosecute for violations of a person's civil rights. Remember, it is an opinion that this could've/should've be constitued as a hate crime, and opinions generally have no place here. However, it is a fact that many people would've liked to have it considered a hate crime, and reporting that fact does not violate any NPOV rules. I don't know why you don't understand that. Maverick 07:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SpinyNorman is tactitly assuming that a crime that isn't tried in court cannot be as such, as the requisite motivational aspect that enters into the definition of a hate crime was not itself part of the charges being tried. But that view is flawed. Had the DAs in the case not tried the defendants for kidnapping, would the crime not still been a case of kidnapping? You tell me. ProfessorFokker 10:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term "hate crime" is a legal one. It can't be used any other way. It is like the term "murder". Someone can't accurately be called a "murderer" unless they've been convicted of murder. An act can't accurately be called a "hate crime" unless the perpetrators have been convicted of a hate crime. The murderers of Matthew Shepard were not convicted of a hate crime, ergo Matthew Shepard's murder was not a hate crime. It really is that simple. --SpinyNorman 00:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even though the crime was not considered a hate crime by the state of Wyoming and US law, it has been called a hate crime and reported as a hate crime by many groups and media outlets. That is what the article says, in a NPOV way. To igonre those facts would be taking a POV stance. The crime stimulated more recent discussion about "hate crimes" than any other recent event I can think of. Someone can't be called a murderer unless found guilty of murder, however they can be accused of murder, and there can be mention of news accounts about them getting away with murder. The article does not say that the accused were convicted of a hate crime. It does report that many thought they derserved to be so charged, yet for legal reasons could not be. There is nothing wrong with saying this in the article. -- Samuel Wantman 01:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing that matters here is the reporting of facts. The fact is that Shepards killers were neither charged with, nor convicted of, a hate crime. They weren't even accused by prosecutors of having committed a hate crime. Ergo, Shepard's murder is not a hate crime - despite some people's insistence on misusing the term. It is nothing short of dishonest to call Shepard's murder a "hate crime" or to include it in the category of hate crimes. Yes, some people think that it should have been prosecuted as a hate crime and there's nothing wrong with reporting that fact. But to deliberately attempt to blur reality here is unacceptable. --SpinyNorman 04:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Background

On the Matthew Shepard page under background, it says "Shepard was born in Casper, the only son of..." Matthew actually had a younger brother, Logan. Therefore, this section is inaccurate.

The page also does not mention Matthew's trip to Morocco, where he was attacked and raped by a group of locals.

Do you have sources for these assertions? -Will Beback 20:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have personally spoken with Judy Shepard (Matthew's mother) many times over many years since Matthew's murder, and Logan Shepard does indeed exist - Matthew's younger brother. I also concur on the lack of any mention of Matthew's trip to Morocco and the attack that occurred there - it too is true. Beyond verification by family members (& even IMDB for info on the well-researched films), simple Google searches yield Denis Shepard's statement in court that verifies Logan's existence and numerous citations from reputable entities about his Morocco experience. 68.94.41.100 01:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)PFink[reply]

Getting this page unblocked

To get this page unblocked we have to agree on the wording of this paragraph, or agree on a different paragraph.

Even though the murderers were not convicted of a hate crime, the case has been called a hate crime by [gay rights groups and some media reports (this should be adjusted to match the citations)] because [reason for calling it a hate crime as mentioned in the citation] [citations here calling it a hate crime] . Under federal United States law and Wyoming state law, crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation are not considered hate crimes [citation here]. Shortly after the murder President Bill Clinton tried to push legislation through Congress adding sexual orientation to the hate crimes law. The measure was defeated [citation here].

I am just mediating this, and as such, I am requesting that the blanks be filled in, or alternatives written for consideration. -- Samuel Wantman 07:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

extra sentence in first paragraph clarifying dates.

just added to the first paragraph a sentence that clarifies the attack was on Oct 7 and that he died on Oct 12. I think it can be confusing to folks how this first sentence originally lists his dates as 12/1/76 - 10/12/98 and then also says he was murdered on the night of October 6 - October 7. This gets detailed later in the section "The Attack," but I thought it was worth mentioning upfront. Snowden666 21:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)snowden666[reply]

Melissa Etheridge Reference

The wording "Lesbian Singer Melissa Etheridge" doesn't sound quite unbiased. While it is relevant that she is a homosexual, it's not the way to start that sentence, and kind of sounds like the "Lesbian Singer" part was added by someone who wanted to make absolutely sure people didn't think a heterosexual had sympathy for Shepard.

re: Melissa

I dont think it is too relavent that she was a lesbian, in reguards to feeling sympathy. So, yeah saying "lesbian singer" does sound rather bias and degrading - does being a lesbian affect how she gives her condolence? One might say "human rights activist and singer" instead.

Santa Monica Blvd memorial

I drive through West Hollywood about once or twice a week, and I noticed that there is a corner, or landscaped snippet of a median at Santa Monica Blvd and Crescent Heights that was dedicated to Shepard. I thought maybe it would be something interesting to add to the article; I saw that someone commented on the lack of info of nation-wide empathy, i.e. candlelight vigils and such.

Apparently, an activist by the name of Morris Kight proposed the idea for this memorial area. a small biography which contains this can be found here. Scroll to the bottom of the page to find out about the memorial. Other than this biography, I haven't been able to find any terribly thorough sources.

WP:POINT cite requests

Sorry for those I just trounced on. I saw all of those {{fact}} notations, and thought they were legitimate, so I started researching. Then when I got a few done and tried to save, I saw the edit conflict, and discovered that it was actually just trying to make a point. But rather than throw away the research, I just saved (incorporating in, in a pitiful sort of way, the simultaneous edit that also tried to add references).

Unhappy.... --TreyHarris 00:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, thanks for the additional sourcing for the article. I'm sorry that you went to the trouble. I'd removed the spurious requests, but due to an edit conflict they were restored. That's why WP:POINT is an important guideline. -Will Beback 00:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, they're all cited. Whew! --TreyHarris 08:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

20/20

More needs to be said about the issues raised by the 20/20 investigation..-- LKS 5/13/06

Category:Hate crime

Several months ago, to accommodate Spiny Norman, I split the category Hate crimes. It is now Category:Hate crime which is for articles that discuss the TOPIC of hate crime, and there is Category:Hate crimes (with an "s") that is for crimes that were prosecuted as hate crimes. While there may be disagreement about putting this article in the latter category, I cannot think of any reason not to put it in the former. This article discusses hate crime, it talks about the legislation that was proposed as a result of Matthew's murder. It is very NPOV to categorize this in the TOPIC of hate crime. Someone researching the topic, no matter what their bias, might want to visit this article. I do not want to rehash all the discussions that we have already have. I thought this was settled, but recently Spiny Norman removed the "Hate crime" categorization. I am going to assume good faith that he did not see or understand the "s". -- Samuel Wantman 00:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The new category is irrelevant - it is just a way to do an end-run around the issue. The "new category" is essentially just a thinly-veiled redirection to the hate crime article which brings us back to the legal issue. The fact remains that Shepard's attackers were neither charged with, nor convicted of a hate crime. As such it is blatantly deceptive to mention hate crimes in connection with his case. The fact that some people believe that Shepard's attackers SHOULD HAVE been charged with a hate crime is irrelevent. It is their personal opinions and speculation and is not relevant to an encyclopedia article. There isn't even agreement that Shepard was targetted because of his sexuality. First his attackers said he was (evidently as a legal ploy) and then they said he wasn't (when they had no motive to lie). --SpinyNorman 21:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to butt in late in this conversation, but I fail to see how your arguments to nullyfy the use of "hate crime" as a categorization scheme will help the Wikipedia project. As an indexing tool, it is valid. The fact that Matthew Shepard's death is linked hate crime laws and the development of hate crime legislation is well established by various U.S. government publications. [5]. I think you are confusing the issue in saying that we cannot depend upon de facto status and must instead rely upon de jure interpretations. The fact that no "hate crime law" existed in the state of his death is not disputed, nor is it really relevant here. And, true, you cannot charge someone for a hate crime, per se, if the criminalization of hate crimes is not on the books in that particular jurisdiction. But that does not mean that the case is not relevant to the "hate crime" topic, under common academic usage and understanding of the term. Furthermore, reasoning is not cogent when it is based upon the legal trivia of a particular state's laws, especially when they conflict with the de facto truth of the matter: Matthew Sheppard's death was/is an instrumental milestone in the development of hate crime legislation, both pro and con (as your arguments illustrate). To not recognize that Matthew Shepard's slaying payed such a role would be academically dishonest. So, therefore, that fact the killers were not charged with "hate crimes" or not has no merit as to the notability this case has in the hate crime debate or in the study of hate-crime law. That alone makes it a valid hate crime topic, particularly to scholars of LGBT topics and criminal law. - Davodd 22:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's also very misleading to say "Shepard's attackers were neither charged with, nor convicted of a hate crime." The fact that Wyoming didn't have hate crimes legislation on its books (and still doesn't)[6], -- and that there is no federal hate crimes legislation based on sexual orientation -- means that the perpetrators couldn't be charged with a hate crime. That doesn't mean, however, that it wasn't a hate crime. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 22:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter WHY they weren't charged with a hate crime. The only relevant issue is Shepard's attackers were not so-charged and despite the informal association of Shepard's name with the issue of hate crimes, the fact remains that his murderers were not subject to prosecution for hate crimes. To say otherwise is wrong. It is like people who insist on calling OJ Simpson a murderer. He's not. He might well have killed his ex wife and her maybe-boyfriend, but he wasn't convicted of murder, so to include Simpson in the category of "murderers" is simply incorrect. --SpinyNorman 03:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your analogy is not correct. If O.J. Simpson got away with murder because the State of California did not try people for murder but only for assault; and thousands of people were appalled and called on the government to make murder illegal; and if the President called for congress to make murder illegal; then I would certainly think that the article about O.J. Simpson could be put in the category "Murder" even if he was not in the category "Murderers". His guilt or innocence, or his not being convicted of murder would be irrelevant. -- Samuel Wantman 04:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the fact of the matter is that Shepard's attackers were not charged with or convicted of a hate crime. Why they were not is irrelevant. The fact some people think (incorrectly) that Shepard's murder was a hate crime is also irrelevant. Wikipedia is about reporting facts, not wishful thinking or popular ignorance. --SpinyNorman 21:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What you're saying is there's a difference between "OJ Simpson was convicted of murdering his wife" and "OJ Simpson is believed to have murdered his wife". And you're right. But either one would be included in his Wikipedia page. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the latter wouldn't be included because whether or not some hypothetical person's opinion is that OJ is a murderer isn't relevant. --SpinyNorman 06:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(reset margin) And yet the fact remains that Shepard's attackers were not charged with or convicted of a hate crime. Ergo, this was not a hate crime - the opinions and wishful thinking of the public notwithstanding. --SpinyNorman 18:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See, this is the problem - you see an "ergo" that just isn't there. Why does it matter what the state of Wyoming charged them with, or what they were convicted of? How does that affect whether the murder was a hate crime? You seem to have the peculiar delusion that the definition of a hate crime depends on what a state chooses to do about it. This is clear nonsense. The Sheppard murder was either motivated by hate or it wasn't, but that doesn't depend in any way on what charges were brought. Next you'll say that if nobody is charged with a murder then it never happened!

Zsero 21:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It matters because if they were convicted of a hate crime, then it would be truthful to include this article in the category of hate crimes. Since they weren't, it is dishonest to categorize the article in this way. If someone is not convicted of murder, then they can't honestly be called a murderer. And, since you mention it, Shepard's attackers say that they were motivated by greed rather than hate. So are you undermining your own claim? --SpinyNorman 10:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If someone is not convicted of murder, then they can't honestly be called a murderer.

This is just a bizarre statement. Many murderers are never convicted, or even caught in the first place. Are you really saying that they're not murderers? Are you really that detached from reality? Or are you speaking some strange private language in which "murderer" means "convicted of murder", and "committed a hate crime" means "was convicted of a hate crime". Or perhaps in your universe nothing exists until a court says it does.

But in the real world things do happen outside courtrooms, and in the English language "murderer" means someone who committed a murder, whether or not they were ever caught, charged, or convicted. And a "hate crime" is any crime that is motivated by hatred for a broad class of people, regardless of whether the local laws have special procedures for such crimes, or of whether the motivation ever became a legal issue. Zsero 10:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Categorization isn't what you think it is". I'm not sure if you guys have covered this, but categories are not as hard-and-fast as you describe. I'll bring you a quote from Talk:Parapsychology:

This whole discussion is hinged on an incorrect assumption about the nature of categorization on Wikipedia. That an article is in a category indicates that the article has some relevance to that category. It is the article, and not the topic which is categorized. If you understand this, then a great many categorizations on Wikipedia will make sense to you, which are otherwise patently absurd. Placing Parapsychology in Category:Pseudoscience is not a POV statement about parapsychology, it is an assertion that someone interested in the parapsychology article might benefit from further research through other articles which touch on pseudoscience, and conversely that people researching the pseudoscience category would benefit from the parapsycology article. Period. -Harmil 20:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

In other words, someone who came to Matthew Shepard might want to know about hate crimes. Therefore, keep the category in. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 19:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is already a link to hate crime in the article, it isn't necessary to lie to the reader and claim something that isn't true - that Shepard's attack was a hate crime. --SpinyNorman 10:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter if it was a hate crime or if it wasn't. If someone's searching through the category tree for hate crimes, they should be able to find this case, which is relavant to the concept of hate crimes whether or not it actually was one. Just the way someone searching through Category:Science should be able to find the topic Parapsychology - whether it really is a science or not. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it relevant? Because people think it should have been charged as a hate crime? That isn't relevant at all. Since when is wishful thinking a criteria for reporting? Oh, and I disagree with your claim about parapsychology as well. Someone searching through the science category shouldn't have to sift through pseudoscience. Now if you want to create a category for pseudoscience, then I agree parapsychology should be there. Likewise, if you want to create a category for attacks that weren't prosecuted as hate crimes even though some people think they should have been, then you can include Matthew Shepard. --SpinyNorman 04:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's relevant not just for wishful thinking. It's also relevant because the debate over whether or not it was a hate crime made national news and sparked activity in the Oval Office[7] as well as Capitol Hill. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Such "debate" that existed was manufactured out of ignorance and misinformation. As such, it isn't relevant. What happened is that certain activists used the incident as an excuse to talk about gay-bashing. What happened to Shepard was a tragedy to be sure and the men who attacked him are in prison where they belong. However, that doesn't make what they did a hate crime. --SpinyNorman 06:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For the sake of argument, let's assume that everything you say is true. If the debate was manufactured out of ignorance and misinformation, add citations to the article that document how the debate was manufactured, and that dispute the misinformation. Let us also assume that tomorrow, undeniable evidence comes to light that clearly shows that the murder was not a hate crime and over time everyone agrees that it was not a hate crime. Even then, this article should remain in the "hate crime" category because of the murder's strong connection with the hate crime debate. I cannot think of any other incident, rightly or wrongly, that brought more attention on the topic of hate crime against LGBT people. Even if the murder was not a hate crime, the aftermath most certainly was related to the topic of hate crime. So Spiny, what you are arguing has nothing to do with putting this article in a hate crime category. Your own statement above, "What happened is that certain activists used the incident as an excuse to talk about gay-bashing" is reason enough to put this in the hate crime category. -- Samuel Wantman 07:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence of which you speak already exists. Shepard's attackers have, after they passed the point where they were motivated to lie about it, admitted that they didn't target Shepard for attack based on his being gay. So we're back to the crux of the matter - that Shepard was not the victim of a hate crime and his attackers were not prosecuted for having committed a hate crime. The uninformed and irrelevant discussion by activists is beside the point. Wikipedia is here to report facts - not gossip and propaganda. --SpinyNorman 07:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'd want more than just the attackers (and one of their friends) asserting that they didn't beat Matthew Shepard to death because he was gay. But, in any case, I think taking the position that the attackers claim now that it wasn't a hate crime is futile: the attack was certainly at the time claimed by his attackers to be motivated by their hatred for gay men, and without doubt became part of the national and international debate about hate crime on that basis. To argue that it can't be included in the category hate crime because the criminals have since changed their story about the motivation for their attack on him is to rewrite history. Yonmei 11:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason they claimed they attacked Shepard because he was gay was to play into a legal defense tactic that turned out to be futile. Statements made by both the attackers and people who knew them show that it was a defense tactic. Now that the two are in prison and they have no motive to lie anymore they have said that their motive in the attack was greed, not hate. --SpinyNorman 16:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter why the debate existed - the fact is that it does exist. People (the press, the government, the talk shows, co-workers around the water cooler - not just wishful thinking, but a large percentage of the population) were talking about hate crimes and hate crime legistlation. To use your own argument, it doesn't matter why there was a debate - the point is that there was one. That alone makes the article eligible for the category. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually, it doesn't. Encylopedia articles are supposed to report facts, not reflect popular ignorance. One of wikipedia's greatest strengths (the fact that anyone can edit articles) is also its greatest weakness. The amount of popular ignorance to be found in these pages is astonishing. It is also difficult to remove since popular ignorance tends to be, well, popular. And also, I'm getting pretty pissed off that people are reverting other legitimate changes I've made to the article along with the disputed category removal. But I guess that's just another example of the kind of intellectual laziness that plagues this site. --SpinyNorman 16:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spiny, you are missing the point. The point is that that national debate occured in a large part due to Shepard's death and the surrounding events. Therefore the category is relevant. JoshuaZ 16:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK Spiny, lets talk about the other changes. You added "however, there is no evidence that Shepard was targeted because he was gay and his attackers deny targeting him for this reason." The evidence that he was targeted because he was gay came from the attackers. If they later denied it, it doesn't erase that evidence. It is quite possible that their initial accounts were correct, and they lied about the denial. Do you have some sort of crystal ball that lets you know which account is a lie? Even if you did, it would be original research. If you post a cited claim which has evidence that supports their denial, feel free to add it. But even having a cited claim does not mean that you can state it as a fact. SpinyNorman is not the arbiter of truth at Wikipedia. Nobody is. -- Samuel Wantman 21:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 16:35, 3 September 2006 edit JoshuaZ (talk \| contribs) Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers 31,655 edits →[[:Category:Hate crime]]: not the point ← Previous edit		Revision as of 21:12, 3 September 2006 edit undo Sam (talk \| contribs) Administrators 16,657 edits →[[:Category:Hate crime]]: You are not the arbiter of truth Next edit →
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	::::::::::: Spiny, you are missing the point. The point is that that national debate occured in a large part due to Shepard's death and the surrounding events. Therefore the category is relevant. [[User:JoshuaZ\|JoshuaZ]] 16:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)		::::::::::: Spiny, you are missing the point. The point is that that national debate occured in a large part due to Shepard's death and the surrounding events. Therefore the category is relevant. [[User:JoshuaZ\|JoshuaZ]] 16:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

			:::::::::::OK Spiny, lets talk about the other changes. You added "however, there is no evidence that Shepard was targeted because he was gay and his attackers deny targeting him for this reason." The evidence that he was targeted because he was gay came from the attackers. If they later denied it, it doesn't erase that evidence. It is quite possible that their initial accounts were correct, and they lied about the denial. Do you have some sort of crystal ball that lets you know which account is a lie? Even if you did, it would be original research. If you post a cited claim which has evidence that supports their denial, feel free to add it. But even having a cited claim does not mean that you can state it as a fact. SpinyNorman is not the arbiter of truth at Wikipedia. Nobody is. -- [[User:SamuelWantman\|Samuel Wantman]] 21:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)