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See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important information

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
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appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by JoeJShmo

JoeJShmo's appeal is declined. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:02, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: JoeJShmo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – JoeJShmo^💌 23:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Topic ban from the subject of Arab-Israel conflict for 6 months and 1000 edits, imposed at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Results concerning JoeJShmo, logged at WP:Arbitration enforcement log#2024 (CT/A-I)

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

[1]

Statement by JoeJShmo

I request the topic ban to be lifted.
Background: An Arb request was opened with concerns on violating ARBPIA as a non EC editor. I explained at length in multiple discussions that I never violated the rules intentionally; I hadn't been clear on what exactly was not allowed (see my statements here, also see my responses on my talk page). Red-tailed hawk ended up giving me a topic ban until I reached EC, asserting that I don't seem to understand the restriction. I thought that assertion was off the mark, but I didn't appeal as I was about to hit EC. There was no gaming the system in hitting EC; every edit was either a part of productive discussion[2], or contributed to build Wikipedia. When I hit EC, I performed a bunch of edits that I had had in the back of my mind in the IAC topic, in what were good-faith contributions. Editors raised concerns with these edits at my talk page and at the Arb request, and shortly after, ScottishFinnishRadish enforced a 6 month 1000 edit ban. Their reasoning reads: "...sanctioned for lack of understanding of WP:PAGS, NPOV issues, and a technical 1RR."[3]
The edits in question are edits to the War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war article. My first edit was to remove a small subsection that I believed was in the wrong section. I do realize now that I could have opened a discussion first, or moved it to where I thought it should go instead of just deleting it. That was a mistake on my part. My second edit was adding context to a human shield instance. I believe that edit was fully warranted; the only source for the incident was the shopkeeper himself (from the video alone it could've been explained as a detainment), who is quoted in the sources as saying he was used to deter stone throwing. Even if there would've been room to disagree, I cannot see this as an example of violating NPOV or PAGS. My third edit I believe similarly warranted, and I didn't realize it would need a discussion, though I learned quickly that more things than usual need discussions in this topic area. However, this does not reflect a lack of understanding and adherence in the above policies. My fourth edit mostly falls in the same boat as the third, as I didn't realize anyone was reverting until I had complete my edits. However, also in the fourth edit, I made a mistake in changing a word from 'stated' to 'claimed'; see the following discussion on my talk page, where a couple of editors helpfully informed me of the terms of the mistake, and I thanked them.[4] This is the discussion SFR pointed me to to back his claims of a violation of NPOV[5] (he stopped responding after we had exchanged a couple messages). However, this doesn't reflect a lack of NPOV, as I actually made the different phrasings consistent with one another, per NPOV, although I now know I should have had both read 'stated' instead of 'claimed' per the discussion linked above. Part of my fourth edit, and my fifth edit, have not been challenged so far. As for 1RR: common practice is not to treat status quo edits as reverts. In this case, it had been nearly 6 months. See discussion here.[6] I believe I've demonstrated in the past a pattern of mindfulness of NPOV, along with a willingness and desire, to accept new information and guidance. I do often seek clarification from editors on the exact problem they are raising, and it is possible that some may have misconstrued that as being 'argumentative'.
In conclusion, I don't believe there's any evidence of POV or a lack of policy awareness to the point of justifying even a temporary topic ban. Some editors may believe I have been too hasty to edit, and I will be slowing down in the future, as I noted above. However, the concerns outlined by SFR do not exist.

Note: The amount of edits counted towards EC that were violations of ECR is negligible, although there were plenty of discussion following the violations where I became better informed. I don't see why discussion wouldn't count towards EC, and even if that is the issue at hand (it isn't), a blanket EC status removal for ~100 edits would've been the answer, not what we have right now. A great majority of my edits have been completely unrelated. JoeJShmo^💌 00:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to say one last thing. I realize I am getting too emotionally involved in this topic right now. Though I don't agree with the 6 month restriction, whatever happens, I'd like to voluntarily take a one month topic ban in the article pages (not discussion), and 100 edits. I'm not here for any one topic, and I enjoy other tasks far more; lately I've been working on making a template for a series of articles. I'd like to thank all the editors who gave me helpful advice so far in editing and following policy: DougWeller, Wordsmith, starship.paint, SFR and RTH (sorry if I missed anyone). As @DougWeller pointed out to me, I realize I can be passive aggressive when I'm under pressure. That's something I'm working on, and I hope to have a positive relationship with everyone in the future. Thank you for hearing me out. JoeJShmo^💌 07:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quick response to SFR. Per 1RR, as I told him on my talk page, I didn't notice anyone was reverting until after I had completed all my edits, and I explained my language in the summary. it's disingenuous not to acknowledge my response. Per MAGS, even if it were true that I didn't have the necessary experience, SFR hasn't demonstrated that I am a overly disruptive editor; and I am EC already. SFR agan references POV violations, but I have yet to see someone demonstrate POV from my edits there. Vague handwaving and linking my edits is not going to cut it. JoeJShmo^💌 19:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear: as I am EC, without gaming the system, there would need to be a separate community wide discussion with consensus, to justify handing out topic bans based on a perceived 'lack of experience'. The bar was set, and I've reached it. Adjustments to the requirements of hitting EC is a different discussion. JoeJShmo^💌 19:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the consensus is to keep the ban. I have taken note of everyone's concerns and will continue to work on learning policy, and as I mentioned above, I understand much more now than I have in the past, and any past issues will no longer be a problem going forward. I'll probably appeal the topic ban in a couple weeks, or whenever I deem appropriate. This process has inspired me to commit to explaining to newer editors how to go about editing in this topic constructively when they hit EC instad of letting them potentially dig themselves into a hole (although they may have enough experience to know basic policy and avoid blatantly disruptive editing, the bar for these topics has been shown here to be much higher and more complicated), and I encourage all involved to do the same. Thank you. JoeJShmo^💌 07:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

The topic ban was placed because the editor clearly does not have the necessary experience and grasp on WP:PAGS to contribute constructively in the topic area. I brought up the technical 1RR violation as it demonstrated that they immediately jumped into removing, even after being reverted, prose that they disagreed with. They did this claiming NPOV violations, and demanding that their edits not be reverted[7][8]. We don't need more stonewalling POV warring going on in the topic area. The discussion at User talk:JoeJShmo#WP:CLAIM demonstrates a lack of a clear understanding of WP:PAGS which is necessary to edit constructively in this incredibly contentious topic. This comes after a block and a topic ban for behavior in the topic. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

No comment on the sanction itself other than I think appellant largely brought this on themselves. As I have indicated before, think we ought to try and avoid that non EC editors end up at this board at all, that's not going to help someone new get to grips with the way WP works, not in a CT. Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by JoeJShmo

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by BilledMammal

A major issue in the enforcement of the ECP restriction is the inconsistency. Whether editors are sanctioned for violating it appears to be entirely based on chance. For example, several months ago I reported IOHANNVSVERVS and Osps7 for gaining ECP primarily through ECR violations, but no action was taken. (To date, neither appear to have made more than 500 edits outside the topic area.) Since then, I've declined to report other such editors, as I've been under the impression that it is not seen as an actionable issue.

I think we need to be consistent in how we treat editors who gain extended-confirmed status through violations; either we sanction all of them or none of them, and if we are going to sanction them we impose comparable sanctions. Personally, I think some level of sanction is appropriate, but it needs to be consistently applied, as to do otherwise would be unfair for editors like JoeJShmo.

See also Redefinition of ECP and Redefining ECP, which are about how to address good-faith edits that work towards extended-confirmed status; the rough consensus of the community appears to be that we should not adjust ECP to make it more difficult to work towards, and nor should we fault editors for working towards it unless they do so through bad-faith edits. BilledMammal (talk) 00:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TarnishedPath

The sanction looked very measured to me given that the editor had not long before received a block for 31 hours for NPA. This topic area needs less disruption, not more. 1000 extra edits and 6 months will give the editor sufficient time to understand WP policies and guidelines. In that way the sanction is purely preventative. TarnishedPath^talk 11:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Kip

While I do agree with BM’s concerns about applying ECR in a consistent manner (and/or redefining it), I concur with those above in that I really don’t see an issue with this particular sanction. As I recently told another editor, hopefully the TBAN results in moderated/refined behavior that they need to develop before any potential return to the area. The Kip ^(contribs) 17:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by berchanhimez

From what I've seen, there is no consensus whatsoever on what even counts as gaming EC. And that seems to be the crux of this topic ban - a belief that the editor "gamed" EC and is still not ready, so it is being "reset" to basically start counting over. While I appreciate administrators are given wide latitude to impose sanctions for Arbitration Enforcement purposes, I do not believe such a "reset of EC" is in line with current lack of consensus on what gaming is (or even if it's a problem to begin with). That said, I don't see any reason that, given the edits after the appellant reached automatic extended confirmed being applied, that a regular topic ban (indefinite or time limited), without a number of edits, for a specific topic area would not be appropriate. I realize that this may be contradictory - I don't believe a "until you redo extended confirmed requirements" topic ban is something that should be applied - yet I also think that a regular topic ban shouldn't be avoided just because the user recently got extended confirmed. There is also the question of what the "extra" restrictions of edit count and time frame mean for appeals. Is it intended that the appellant in this case can't appeal it before 1000 total edits and 6 months? Is it intended that appeals before that time should just be declined, or looked at more carefully? Is it intended to automatically expire at that time, and who is responsible for "assessing" the 1000 edits and 6 months criteria to decide if it's expired? What if the user gets to 900 edits, creates 3 new articles in other contentious topic areas (that they aren't topic banned from) without any issue whatsoever? Best to just make it a regular topic ban, either time-limited or indefinite - and let the user follow normal appeal processes as anyone else if/when they feel they have shown their competence enough to get it removed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 18:41, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question for Doug Weller - EC is only enforced by the software on pages protected with that level of protection. The question to ask here is whether other editors are supposed to know, if they don't use hover-boxes (or whatever the technical gadget is called), that this editor is "not" extended confirmed. And even still, it doesn't sound like they are having extended confirmed removed - because this is a single subject area topic ban. Hence why I feel this is, for all intents and purposes, no different than an indefinite topic ban that can be appealed at any time. The addition of the edit/time restriction serves virtually no purpose, unless it is to mean that an appeal "should be" accepted at that time - but any appeal of it would be considered on the merits and we will be back where we started - so there is no use for the edit/time restrictions. Just make it indefinite and allow the user to appeal whenever as any other topic ban. Either they have gained experience and will be able to show it, or the appeal will fail and be handled as normal for those appealing before a removal is warranted. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 07:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by JoeJShmo

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

In principle, I think that the topic ban issued by ScottishFinnishRadish is appropriate given the series of events that led to here, though I would like to hear the admin's response here to clarify the reasons that this topic ban was given. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I consider the ban to have been appropriate per the arguments given above by ScottishFinnishRadish which is confirmed by my own experience in trying to advise JoeJShmo. The purpose is to help them gain experience with our WP:PAGS. Reaching the 6 months and 1000 edits won't automatically expire so they will have to reach out to an Admin to restore EC, but I believe that this should be granted then without relation to edits in other edits or the quality of their edits. Any problems in other areas should be treated separately. Doug Weller talk 13:23, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with concerns above about consistently enforcing EC restrictions, and responding consistently to gaming ECR; but that does not change my assessment that this editor needs to gain more experience - and hopefully learn restraint - outside this topic. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the TBAN was well within the bounds of admin discretion "to prevent damage or disruption" and there has not been a compelling case put that the ban is no longer necessary therefore I decline the appeal. Absent any further admin comments in the next ~24 hours or so I'll close the appeal as declined as there aren't admins arguing in favour of overturning it. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:37, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dtobias

Dtobias is indefinitely topic banned from gender-related disputes or controversies and associated people, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:05, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Dtobias

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Snokalok (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Dtobias (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_and_sexuality#Standard_discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

(Diffs below)

Anytime there’s a discussion involving an article that falls under GENSEX topics, User:dtobias comes in and more or less just rants about the evil transgenders and trans activists in a way that contributes nothing to the article’s talk page and only serves to espouse his views on trans rights devoid of any relevance to editing the article.

He also frequently either directly accuses or through a paper thin pretense accuses other editors of being trans activists without the wiki’s best interests at heart. This includes saying that properly gendering trans people in line with MOS:GENDERID is comparable to a Muslim user forcing his religious beliefs on Wikipedia, and accusing users of trying to discount any source that’s not PinkNews even when the sources in question are very demonstrably unreliable and/or employ the use of anti-trans slurs. On at least one occasion, he has also made edits to GENSEX articles themselves, referring to trans women using he/him pronouns.

[9] Unasked for rant about how Trans activists are prone to throwing tantrums when they don't get their way. WP:NOTFORUM WP:DIS

[10] Irrelevant WP:NOTFORUM tangent about how There certainly is a set of beliefs, principles, doctrines, and philosophies being promoted by trans activists, so the whole concept that "there's no such thing as trans ideology" is ludicrous.

[11] In response to being told to follow MOS:GENDERID, he goes on a whole WP:NOTFORUM thing about newspeak and thoughtcrimes.

[12] Another WP:NOTFORUM thing about “trans ideology”, this time comparing trans people to people who think they’re Napoleon and are thus entitled to all of Europe.

[13] WP:NOTFORUM ramble about the rise of “transgenderism”.

[14] WP:NOTFORUM rant about the term “TERF” + comment saying that trans men are women.

[15] WP:AGF WP:DIS reply saying that asking editors to follow MOS:GENDERID is comparable to a Muslim editor forcing his religious views on Wikipedia.

[16] Accusing editors of trying to POV-push for saying that a source that used slurs to refer to trans women wasn’t reliable. EDIT: Sorry, the slur one was below. This one was just basic AGF POV accusation. I have no idea why I got the two mixed up or why I thought they were the same response. That’s on me for sloppy proofreading, sincerest apologies.

[17] Ditto. I think he just copied and pasted his response.

[18] Editing a trans woman’s BLP to refer to her by he/him pronouns in violation of MOS:GENDERID.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

[19] Him being taken to ANI previously over his behavior on GENSEX topics

[20] The thread being moved to AE, where he was given a caution over his behavior.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

The AE thread linked above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: I was advised at ANI to file this here instead. I’m not filing this because of his personal POV on GENSEX topics. There are plenty of editors with such views that still contribute positively to GENSEX articles, even if I personally disagree with them. I’m filing this because of the way he deploys said views on talk pages and articles in a way that contributes nothing to the page and instead just seems to use said page as a forum to vent his feelings about trans people, often towards trans editors.

EDIT: Sorry if I’m at all awkward at this! This is my first AE thread.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [21]

Discussion concerning Dtobias

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Dtobias

I stand by the truth (as I see it) of everything I said, if not necessarily the civility or appropriateness in context. This subject brings out the worst in everybody it touches. I will abide by whatever decision the community makes in this action. I do hope that those who look into this matter look at the behavior of all people involved in the discussions the above diffs were part of, and not just at mine; those articles might be better off if a number of people whose views are too strongly held and expressed to make them well-suited for dispassionate encyclopedia creation would step back a bit.

To mention a few of the above diffs where further comment is needed:

[22] was in response to a comment saying that pretty much all of the UK news media should be dismissed as unreliable because people have criticized their "transphobia".

[23] I wasn't "ranting" there, just quoting part of an academic paper being discussed, where it mentions the definition and usage of "TERF", which had also been under discussion on that page.

[24] I wasn't "being told to follow MOS:GENDERID" because I hadn't violated it; the discussion was between others, which I jumped into with my own two cents (er, "tuppence" since it was about a UK subject) about how being compelled to use language based on one side of a controversial issue limits ability to debate. This doesn't mean that I would ever intentionally break Wikipedia style rules, whether or not I agreed with them; see below for where I self-reverted when I accidentally did so (much later than this debate).

[25] An error on my part which I immediately corrected, the final edit here being, as of this writing, the most recent edit on that page, so nobody has yet found it in need of further correction or alteration. *Dan T.* (talk) 01:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There does seem to be a double standard in effect, where people on one side of the issue can use all the forceful and biased language they wish usually with no repercussions, but the other side needs to walk on eggshells. Even saying that there's such a thing as transgender ideology gets you in trouble, as seen in comments below. *Dan T.* (talk) 05:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re LightNightLights: No, nobody should be banned from commenting about a subject due to their personal characteristics or beliefs. But if they are using hyperbolic, violent rhetoric aimed at others of opposing beliefs, one can call into question their objectivity and professionalism on the subject and their suitability for rendering judgment as an uninvolved party. I note the rhetorical technique of using analogies (in this case black people to trans people) to make a point; this is a very commonly done tactic, and one that I'm being rebuked for here.

Re Abecedare: I appreciate your comments even if they're not always what I want to hear. Neat username! Interesting user page quote! Seems like you truly practice what you preach, given your user history as far as I've looked shows absolutely no involvement in culture warring on any side. Can you explain why my use of analogies is "inapt" while others' may not be? I'm not just being argumentative here; I actually care what you think. *Dan T.* (talk) 19:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Firefangledfeathers

I don't think Dan's statement that he does "not necessarily [stand by] the civility or appropriateness in context" is enough here. The quoting of 1984 was pretty egregious. At the time, we were discussing a tough issue. An activist was objecting to the circumstances surrounding an OB/GYN doctor who is a trans woman. The article text had described the doctor as "a male transgender doctor", which I objected to. Another editor proposed a change to "a transgender doctor", with other participants objecting to that. Finding the right option in these disputes is tough work. So many good editors have been pushed away due to the acrimony in this topic area. We deserve people that won't step into a tough content dispute to contribute only a newspeak accusation. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by starship.paint

Certainly Dtobias needs to tone down the inflammatory rhetoric and stop with all of the comparisons. But Snokalok's report needs refinement - misreading a quote (that was literally put in Template:Quote frame) as a "NOTFORUM rant" and noting an instance of misgendering that was literally corrected by Dtobias one minute later. Meanwhile the "Unasked for rant" was a direct response to an editor who called for sources such as The Times, The Guardian and the BBC to be found to be not generally reliable on the topic based on the reporting of sources including the LGBT magazine Them. starship .paint (RUN) 04:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist: - I throw _____ into the sun. YEET certainly could be interpreted like a death threat. I would expect an admin to recuse in that topic area for ______. starship .paint (RUN) 23:27, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BilledMammal

I agree with Starship.Paint. To add to what they said, Snokalok said that Dtobias accused editors of trying to POV-push for saying that a source that used slurs to refer to trans women wasn’t reliable, which seems to mischaracterize the discussion. Slurs do not appear to have been mentioned at any point, and Dtobias' comment appears to be pushing back against considering The Times, The Guardian, and The BBC unreliable.

Snokalok also says that Dtobias said that asking editors to follow MOS:GENDERID is comparable to a Muslim editor forcing his religious views on Wikipedia.

In this discussion, the context to which is a situation where both sex and gender need to be identified in order for a reader to make sense of the content, Snokalok argues, somewhat uncivilly at times (don’t go asserting nonsensical conventions) that sex is mutable and we should refer to a trans-woman as female. In response to this, which as it relates to sex and not gender appears to be unrelated to MOS:GENDERID, Dtobias' asserted that this was a system of belief (for context, reliable sources generally hold that sex is immutable). This discussion is also where the 1984 quote was made.

BilledMammal (talk) 06:25, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by berchanhimez

Initial comment hidden because I incorporate/clarify it below

I do not agree with the statement by Isabelle below that the use of the terms "transgender ideology" or "transgenderism" should have any impact on this case, nor should they be surprising. They are perfectly valid terms for the things they describe. To be clear, I am fully supportive of those who believe that the solution to feeling as if they were assigned the wrong gender at birth being given all possible forms of treatment for the mental health problems they have because of those feelings. But that does not mean that there is not an "ideology" surrounding it in a political sense, nor does it mean that "transgenderism" is an inaccurate term to describe the concept of someone being transgender. A quick review of the diffs presented by the originator of this complaint - I agree that dtobias may be able to tone down the rhetoric a bit. But let's not ignore the fact that the originator claimed User:dtobias comes in and more or less just rants about the evil transgenders and trans activists without providing any evidence of dtobias calling them "evil transgenders". It seems that the originator may need to take a step back and look at their own rhetoric - legitimate discourse regarding transgender topics cannot be stifled just because someone disagrees with another, and misrepresenting what someone else has said should not be tolerated. To be blunt, I think dtobias may have been correct in saying Trans activists are prone to throwing tantrums when they don't get their way - this appears to be one of those tantrums intended to get an editor that is disagreed with removed from the topic area. In reviewing the "not a forum" complaints made, there seems to be none that are using the talk page as a forum - those comments (from my view) are all relevant to the discussions they were made in.

Ultimately, this appears to be based primarily on one content dispute that the originator of this complaint feels strongly about. I have no opinion (at this time) as to whether the issues raised (over MOS:GENDERID and how we refer to transgender persons in their articles) merit further/wider discussion - but I do not see any action being needed here aside from perhaps a warning to the originator that disagreeing with someone does not mean you can ignore their opinions and try to silence them. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 08:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've collapsed my initial comment as it was very general and I have expanded on it (including directly identifying the diffs I was commenting about) below, I hope this is/can be allowed. The diff analysis below itself is slightly over 500 words, with approximately 450 words of analysis following it. I believe that both of these parts are crucial to examine this issue fully - both dtobias' conduct itself (the diff analysis) but also the analysis and identification of wider problems in the area. I would greatly appreciate being permitted a retroactive extension to permit my comment that follows in its entirety, and if an administrator has questions/requests a reply from me a further allowance of 200 words to form that reply. Apologies if I missed instructions on how to request a pre-emptive extension of the word count - and if I cannot/will not be permitted one retroactively to cover this I will likely simply have to avoid the diff review.

I will begin with analysis of the evidence provided:

Diff 2 is a valid point to make in a discussion over a political viewpoint being reported on by a source.
Diff 3 is a discussion over how to identify the subject when discussing things for which them being transgender is important. In the discussion, it was actually Snokalok who initially went off topic - rather than discussing the improvement to the article in question, they said Male and female are obviously gendered and you are well aware of that. Another user (not dtobias) had further questions over that, and Snokalok continued to attempt to shut down any opposing viewpoint, rather than attempting to explain where MOS:GENDERID comes from and our consensuses on the issue - eventually saying Then don’t go asserting nonsensical conventions that allow an editor to refer to trans women in articles as males. And this is when dtobias stepped in and pointed out that this was, in effect, attempted censorship based on viewpoint - to which Snokalok replied with yet another veiled threat of That’s worked out for the last thousand editors who’ve done so.
Diff 4 is an example being provided to explain the difference between "being trans" and the politics surrounding transgender education/etc. Was it a great analogy? No. But it is not inflammatory to attempt to explain oneself using analogies.
Diff 5 is a reply to a discussion thread that yet again was started by Snokalok - not a NOTFORUM violation. it is a discussion over the historical prevalence of the concepts and thus a look to avoid recentism bias in assigning due weight. Now Snokalok is claiming it's "irrelevant" because they didn't like the reply to their bringing the issue up.
Diff 6 is nonproblematic - there was a post by Void if removed that presented a possible source, and dtobias pulled out a footnote to discuss further. In no way should quoting a source to discuss whether it may be useful or not be problematic.
Diff 7 completely misrepresents what was being replied to - it was in fact Snokalok that turned the discussion away from what Wikipedia policies/guidelines say and to personal viewpoints. Dtobias pointed out that Wikipedia doesn't care what the personal viewpoints of an editor/editors are.
Diff 8 is an accurate "what if" - it cannot be denied that there is much more of a push against the reliability of "anti-trans" sources on Wikipedia than there is against the reliability of dubious "pro-trans" sources such as Pink News. Of note, Snokalok clearly has an opinion on this - a source that uses a term they don't like can't be reliable according to their explanation of the diff presented. And that completely ignores the lengthy discussion that was had regarding the source - but also makes dtobias' reply retrospectively reasonable - since it is clear that Snokalok wishes for sources that use words they don't like to be prohibited.
Diff 9 is a valid criticism of someone that aspoused a similar "if they use words I don't like, burn the source" viewpoint.
Finally, diff 10 has already been admitted to have been a mistake, has not been repeated, and was swiftly corrected.

So what are we left with? One minorly problematic diff where dtobias claims that trans activists are prone to throwing tantrums when they don't get their way as the worst statement in it. To be quite frank, that is an accurate representation of what is going on here. Snokalok is unhappy that dtobias won't sit back and accept censorship of sources based on using the "wrong terminology", is unhappy that dtobias is trying to critically evaluate sources and our articles from all angles and ensure that all things are considered, and so they have now come here to "throw a tantrum" trying to get them removed from the topic area. In doing so, they have found the support of many of the same editors who, in the discussions that led to the "evidentiary" comments, espoused the same sort of "ban people who say words I don't like" views. Whether this is considered a "first shot wins" situation, or simply an "unclean hands" situation, it would be improper to sanction dtobias for this report.

On the terminology argument, I cannot accept that "sometimes offensive" on wiktionary is grounds for a word being considered "improper" - much less effectively banning it from use under penalty of being sanctioned. Nor can I accept as offensive the act of calling a political viewpoint an "ideology" - which is what was being discussed in the cases that dtobias used that phrase, not the existence of transgender people as a whole. In the grand scheme of things on Wikipedia, discussions every single day contain much more "offensive" or inflammatory language - in fact the originator of this complaint has (inaccurately) stated that dtobias thinks there's evil transgenders. Further, multiple other users on the talkpage in question (Talk:LGB Alliance) have described the "anti-trans" (or similar) viewpoints as "ideolog[ies]". Trying to limit the verbiage used by "one side" of a discussion when permitting the same verbiage to be used by the "other side" is flat out antithetical to the purpose and principles of Wikipedia - and should only be considered where the language being used is either completely inaccurate/misleading, or is so extreme or widely considered offensive so as to have zero purpose whatsoever. And that's not the case with what dtobias has said.

This is a contentious topic, yes, but that does not mean that those supporting a viewpoint that get the most "likes" should be allowed to silence their critics, nor freely roam Wikipedia attempting to twist and turn Wikipedia policies to fit their desired outcome of limiting alternate views being reported in articles. And they certainly should not be allowed to start discussions about their views that are questionably relevant at best, then use someone trying to engage in legitimate discussion about such comments as "evidence" against them. That is what is primarily disruptive here. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 22:20, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (Sweet6970)

I see that Isabelle Belato has said This is a topic already fraught with hostility. This is, indeed, true. And I do not think that an admin who until recently had an image on her User page which included the slogan: I THROW TERFS INTO THE SUN yeet is a suitable person to be sitting in judgment on this matter. (It looks like the only reason this image is no longer visible is that it has been centrally deleted. [26] ) Sweet6970 (talk) 13:00, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment about the final diff quoted in the complaint above [27]. Without any input from anyone else, this was corrected one minute later. [28]. This edit is part of a series of edits, which started with an edit where ‘Wadhwa’ was misspelled as ‘Wradha’ [29]. This was corrected in the next edit, one minute later: [30]. Dtobias is obviously correcting himself as he goes along. To present the final diff in the complaint out of context is misleading, to put it politely. I think that Snokalok needs a formal warning not to behave like this. Sweet6970 (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist: Yes, of course, someone who endorses threats of violence against anyone is not fit to sit in judgment on them. And your comparison of feminism to racism is inflammatory. Sweet6970 (talk) 19:40, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist: Regarding your latest comment: WP:NOTFORUM, and this kind of discussion is particularly unsuitable to be held at AE. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist

wikt:transgenderism:

(sometimes derogatory) A purported ideology behind transgender identities, trans activism and trans rights movements; transness as an ideology. (Compare homosexual agenda.)

transgender ideology and gender ideology link to Anti-LGBT rhetoric and Anti-gender movement, where more context is given for RS considering these offensive and deliberately vague buzzwords seeking to portray trans people as ideologically driven.

Now, DTobias knows these are offensive phrases, because at WP:NOQUEERPHOBES (an essay written by myself and other queer editors to address rampant queerphobia on Wikipedia) they objectd on the grounds that: In particular, it's quite a useful thing that one of the prime tenets of gender ideology is that there's no such thing as gender ideology; that nips any opposing arguments in the bud! The aim of Newspeak was to ensure that expression of dissident opinions was impossible due to all relevant words being either eliminated or redefined. Modern social-justice crusaders are making great progress at achieving this, particularly in the area of sex and gender.[31]

It's only after these kinds of phrases are noted to be offensive they argue things like Ideology means a "Doctrine, philosophy, body of beliefs or principles belonging to an individual or group." There certainly is a set of beliefs, principles, doctrines, and philosophies being promoted by trans activists, so the whole concept that "there's no such thing as trans ideology" is ludicrous.[32] He gleefully continues to insist that "trans ideology" is a real thing even above: Even saying that there's such a thing as transgender ideology gets you in trouble, as seen in comments below.

There's also snide comments arguing the mainstream media is unduly saying trans people are marginalized: particularly when a lot of the media keeps hammering in the idea that this group is highly marginalized (which kind of contradicts the idea that all of mainstream society favors them, but never mind...). [33]

I was thinking of giving this user a warning on his talk page following this comment at LGB Alliance: Activists call everything "transphobic" if it doesn't ask "how high?" when the activists say to jump[34], because I'd also noticed these forum-style rants and found them offputting.

And there is a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality evidenced in comments like: If one side attains complete victory in this battle, they are likely to win the war, since their side is thereby unanimously supported by reliable sources (because all differing sources have been deemed unreliable) in reference to the Telegraph discussion, what should have been a discussion about the reliability of a source is argued to be warring sides in a battle.[35]

This user repeatedly, in every situation they can, deliberately uses provocative and offensive language - comparing trans people to people who think they're Napolean, religious beliefs, Authoritarian Orwellianism, and generally using language that frames being transgender as a powerful ideology.

To all those who think this isn't problematic - would you argue the same if he repeatedly referred to the "homosexual agenda" and "gay activists calling everything homophobic" and called being questioned on such language evidence of Newspeak? WP:RGW behavior for sure. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WRT those calling Isabelle Bellato into question, would y'all argue "I toss race realists into the sun YEET" disqualifies admins from arbitrating race and intelligence? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sweet6970 - I suppose we can agree to disagree on how publicly anti-bigotry you can be. I'm a little confused, are you arguing DTobias is a TERF?

your comparison of feminism to racism is inflammatory. - Trans exclusionary radical feminism is a very minor branch of feminists, defined entirely by their opposition to transgender people's civil liberties, considered by the majority of the worlds feminist and LGBT watchdogs to be transphobic. You know this. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:23, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Isaidnoway

I do agree with the statement by Isabelle below that the use of the terms "transgender ideology" or "transgenderism" should have an impact on this case. And it doesn't "surprise me" either because it is terminology (ideologically-motivated ... ideological objective), Dtobias frequently uses when editing in this CT area. Two of the diffs below are three years old, but it shows a pattern, along with the multiple diffs above.

Diff – But what else but an "ideology" can you call a set of beliefs about sex and gender that include such things as "Trans Women Are Women" (quite often used as a thought-terminating cliche, like when it's chanted mindlessly by activists trying to drown out all opposition) (May 2024)
Diff – Sometimes I feel I've woken up in the looking-glass world or the Bizarro World, where perfectly normal terminology in use for centuries and defined in dictionaries is "POV" and "fringe", while ideologically-motivated neologisms are "NPOV" and standard. (Oct 2021)
Diff – But that wouldn't accomplish the ideological objective of forcing everybody to think of it as if it's an arbitrary assignment instead of a biological fact. (Oct 2021)

From a personal viewpoint, I believe that comment in the first diff is insulting and denigrating Transgender Women. See also: "Gender ideology". Isaidnoway (talk) 16:54, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LightNightLights

Regarding this edit: Sure thing. Let us ban black people too from speaking about racism just because they are anti-racism. LightNightLights (talk • contribs) 17:04, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LunaHasArrived

I also think it is relevant that on multiple of these edits (1,3,5) Dtobias was reminded about notforum, and yet decided to ignore this policy and continuing in this behaviour. Also all of these diffs are from within the last month, they seem to have done 50 contributions in this time period so this controversial editing contributed a significant part of their recent editing history. LunaHasArrived (talk) 10:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Dtobias

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This is a topic already fraught with hostility, and some of their highlighted comments do nothing but add heat. While comparing the use of gender inclusive terms to Newspeak is a tired one, comparing trans people to people who believe they are Napoleon Bonaparte is a new one to me. That they'd use terms such as "transgender ideology" and "transgenderism" does not surprise me. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 03:23, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Berchanhimez: the issue with those terms is that they add up to the inflammatory language used by Dtobias, and which has been shown here by the OP and Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist. There is a clear pattern of battleground behavior, which the user has already been warned about. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 19:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A reminder that all editors are supposed to comment only in their own section and have a limit of 500 words and 20 diffs, unless they request and are granted an extension. So please keep your comments focused and to the point.

I have deleted comments by editors in sections other than their own (I also deleted some responses by BilledMammal in their own section, which though wouldn't have made sense with other comments removed). @Snokalok: if you now believe that some diffs are not relevant to the complaint, you can strikethrough them. Abecedare (talk) 16:52, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, now I have reviewed all the diffs presented in the original complaint: one was a misgendering error that was quickly corrected and a few others ([36], [37], [38]), while non-ideal, arguably fall in the grey/AGF area given the context of the respective discussions. The same cannot be said about the other diffs where either the snark ([39], [40]), belittling language ("throwing tantrums", "screams of activists") or inapt analogies ([41], and especially [42]) served only to inflame the discussions.

Given that similar issues were previously raised at AE regarding Dtobias's participation in this area, when they were issued a reminder about their tone, I believe a WP:GENSEX-topic ban is now justified and needed. Abecedare (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not impressed with a lot of their behavior, but when an editor invokes the ol someone thinks they're -insert inane thing here- so everyone has to agree with them? canard and has already been warned for their behavior they're ripe for a time-out. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:50, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Emdosis

There is a rough consenus of uninvolved administrators to close this as moot given subsequent topic ban. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Emdosis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Emdosis (talk) 19:51, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: for WP:ECR violations, imposed at

      Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2024#c-ScottishFinnishRadish-20240721163500-User_sanctions_(CT/A-I),

logged at

      16:34, 21 July 2024

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Yeah, I'm aware. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Emdosis

I was about to post the following to Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee when I saw I got banned. I'll post it here instead:

 (topic:ECR)

"The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed"

I'm guessing it's so broad that it includes user talk pages, and going even further, that it would allow a non-admin to remove an edit on another user's talk page (even though that would clash with WP:UP#OOUP). (To be very clear, I absolutely did not add that comment on Joe Roe's page knowingly violating ECR rules)

Statement by Emdosis²

Just found out the original block wasn't even applicable under the ARBPIA decision to begin with:

Definition of the "area of conflict"
4) For the purposes of editing restrictions in the ARBPIA topic area, the "area of conflict" shall be defined as encompassing

the entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted ("primary articles"), and
edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace ("related content")

Passed 6 to 0 at 05:06, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Emdosis (talk) 22:30, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Theleekycauldron:
"I wouldn't immediately understand "userspace" to apply to another user's talk page in this case."
Idk. To me, 'Userspace' means all space. Not just 'Userpage'.
"...seems more like wikilawyering than anything else to say that this edit falls outside of the CT regime."
And? Can you please point me to the part in the ARBPIA page that explains the exception to the exception as being "if it is contentious"? You know damn well no-one is going to read all of ARBPIA, let alone WP:CTOP. It would have been helpful if, instead of just a long and pedantic essay that reads like a legal document, it would simply say (in the first paragraph) what the goal of the restrictions are, and the scope of it. Because it seems to me you guys keep on increasing the scope of the restrictions (which weren't clearly defined to begin with) with every follow-up. It's also not clear (based on admin activity) what the purpose, or more precisely, the scope of the purpose, is. What are we trying to prevent here? Is this what we're trying to prevent here? Emdosis (talk) 23:25, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Just noting that I have indefinitely topic banned them as well, for WP:BATTLEGROUND editing and casting aspersions.[43][44][45] ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:02, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Emdosis

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by BilledMammal

Emdosis made a comment that was in violation of ECR, it was reverted, and they reinstated despite discussion on their talk page saying they shouldn't. Reasonable block.

Emdosis, if I can give you some advice; this sanction is the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. I suggest that you withdraw this appeal and instead accept it. In a week, when it expires, you can return, make 200 productive edits and non-trivial edits in other topic areas, and join this topic area if you are still interested in doing so. Don't earn yourself a more permanent sanction over trying to contribute to the topic area a couple of weeks early.

I realize you're only 100 edits from ECR, but I suggest 200 just to avoid any controversy in the future over the edits you made within the topic area contributing to you earning ECR.

In addition, I see you cited WP:IAR; for inexperienced editors, IAR is a trap that will only get you in trouble. Eventually you'll realize when it's appropriate to apply, but for now, especially within contentious topic areas, I suggest you stay well clear of it. BilledMammal (talk) 20:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

I know that in theory all blocks are appealable but I will say it again, non EC editors arguing about EC restrictions should not have any standing at this board. By the time we are done here, the block will have run its course. Selfstudier (talk) 21:53, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep: How to resolve the technicality, although I would have thought the later should override the earlier in case of ambiguity? An ARCA? Selfstudier (talk) 09:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

In my opinion, the belief that userspace edits are not in the ARBPIA topic area is well founded. Not only was the exclusion of userspace passed 6-0 by the arbcom decision that defined the topic area, but it is stated explicitly in the list of topic areas which is specified at WP:ARBECR (footnote 2) as the topic areas which are covered. Once userspace is deemed outside the topic area, even phrases like "all pages in the topic area" do not include it. Zero^talk 12:19, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Emdosis

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Given the subsequent topic-ban, this appeal regarding the scope of ECR would seem to be moot. Any objection to closing on that basis? Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:59, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Good question NYB. I think in the end I have no objections. However, I will note that the contradiction between the "topic area" as defined and what areas ECR do not allow for is present. And so in a different scenario I would say this user shouldn't have to eat a block that could then be escalated if there are future transgressions. However, given that there was other conduct leading to a topic ban that factor doesn't seem to apply here. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with closing as moot as well, and endorse SFR's topic ban. I wouldn't immediately understand "userspace" to apply to another user's talk page in this case – seems more like wikilawyering than anything else to say that this edit falls outside of the CT regime. We can drag this to ARCA if we have to, but just agreeing that the filer made a vexatious argument is easier. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 16:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ABHammad

There is a rough consensus that ABHammad has been engaging in battleground behavior and as an attempt to stop that without going to a full topic ban, is subjected to a 0 revert restriction. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:52, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning ABHammad

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:51, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested: ABHammad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPIA
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

"Tag-team" edit warring at Zionism over "colonization", a continuation of the edit war discussed above at #Nishidani, which closed July 11 ("A bunch of socks/compromised accounts blocked. Further action related to anything here will need a separate report."). I won't repeat what I wrote there at #Statement by Levivich (Nishidani).

Removals of "colonization" and similar (partial list): מתיאל June 6, Kentucky Rain24 June 6, האופה (not to be confused with User:מתיאל) June 7, KR June 8, ABHammad June 10 (another), O.maximov June 11, האופה June 12, Galamore June 12, מתיאל July 1, ABHammad July 2, O.maximov July 3, האופה July 4, Icebear244 July 4, [fully-protected July 11-14], ABHammad July 21
For context: they've made 16 edits total to this article [46], they are (not in chronological order):
- The 4 edits linked above
- 5: removing a source (The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine) and replacing it with {{dubious}}
- 6, 7: making a bold edit and later reinstating part of it
- 8, 9, 10, 11, 12: adding "we were here first" content
- The remaining 4 are innocuous: 13, 14, 15, 16
2 talk page edits [47], both in May: first one claims that Nur Masalha and New Historians like Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim often present fringe views; the second one doubles down.

Discussion concerning ABHammad

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by ABHammad

I cannot speak for the other editors mentioned, but I can confirm that I have no connection with them. It seems that Levivich's complaint is simply pointed at those who disagree with Levivich's point of view. This is evident from his recent, deeply inflammatory comment that we are "We are witnessing the last gasps of Zionism", and their edit warring, both leaving no question regarding their views on the IP conflict.

Levivich's complaint appears to be exactly over what Wikipedia expects its editors to do: debate content, and when it comes to POV-pushing, reject the disruptive addition of controversial information forcibly added without, or before consensus is reached. The reverts Levivich shows were made in response to:

Attempts to push the controversial framing of Zionism as colonialism in Wikipedia's voice, despite the lack of consensus on this matter. This was done anyway due to consistent edit warring by several editors, including Levivich ([75], a revert which also saw them attacking other accounts just for being "new"). The article now uses colonization in Wiki voice at the very first sentence.
Attempts to remove maps of ancient Israel and info on Jewish identity
Attempts to describe the events in Gaza as genocide in Wikipedia's voice, unfortunately also successful

If anything, the real issue here is a group of veteran editors pushing an anti-Israeli viewpoint on Wikipedia, promoting controversial views as encyclopedic facts, and threatening those who oppose them. This complaint is just the latest in a series of attempts to silence opposition and force a single, biased pov over all of the Israel-Palestine area in Wikipedia, which truthfully, has lost all neutrality due to the above conduct. ABHammad (talk) 08:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish what has been noted on Israel and apartheid is quite similar to other experienced I had. Take for example Zionism, where a new framing of it as "the colonization of a land outside of Europe", was implemented through edit warring by experienced editors in June and July, against consensus and while discussions are still ongoing. In these and other articles mentioned above (another example is List of genocides), my reverts were to the consensus version, not to a preferred new version. Vanamonde93, I want to emphasize that this was not about being 'correct on the ideological issues' but about preventing forceful changes made against consensus. I would really ask what should one do in cases like this. ABHammad (talk) 12:47, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

@ABHammad: the real issue here is a group of veteran editors pushing an anti-Israeli viewpoint on Wikipedia, promoting controversial views as encyclopedic facts, and threatening those who oppose them. If this is the real issue, then evidence, please. At the moment it appears from the evidence presented that it may be yourself that is engaged in WP:CPUSH rather than others. Perhaps comment at the same time re User talk:ABHammad#1R breach about your edit blatantly promotes false information and User talk:ABHammad#Enough already about You are going against consensus and the principles of collaborative editing. Taking it to my talk page instead of collaborating on the talk page instead feels like bullying and harassment. Selfstudier (talk) 09:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish:The current consensus version seems to match the POV of ABHammad and האופה. Apart from the fact that I had valid reasons for reversion, that's not even true. On the weaponization matter, the current state is as I wished it (that is the link is included, not excluded, and I helped workshop the RFC that led to that conclusion). So, please, find another rabbit to hunt. Selfstudier (talk) 18:05, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I am at it, where is the response to the questions I posed? We have an editor casting aspersions left and right and that passes us by? Selfstudier (talk) 18:10, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: I don't understand that revert, what is it exactly, it seems that many things have been changed, is it just going back to a previous version of the page? Selfstudier (talk) 15:35, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49: Editor Levivich has made a decent fist of trying to pin it down, the bulk of it is as he says and editor Iskandar has confirmed that all of his edits were reverted, no matter the reason they gave for removal in the first place, while the business about the image should have been subject of talk page discussion, the edit even reverts notelist and reflist (!), presumably to some prior version and I know not why. I will try to dissect it further but it will take some time and frankly, this sort of editing is uninspiring however it was manufactured.Selfstudier (talk) 17:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by starship.paint (2)

@ABHammad: you say that It seems that Levivich's complaint is simply pointed at those who disagree with Levivich's point of view. - but this complaint is about you, instead of pointing to anyone else who disagrees with Levivich. Your response fails to dispel the notion of WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct. starship .paint (RUN) 14:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sean.hoyland: is absolutely right, in fact the offsite recruitment on Israel subforums has already occurred multiple times in the past week. See [76], [77] and [78]. starship .paint (RUN) 23:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also agree with KoA, I am not at all impressed by the jumping to conclusions and doubling down by Vegan416 at this venue. In the very same week where the International Court of Justice ruled that Israel had "an obligation to cease immediately all new settlement activities and to evacuate all settlers", Vegan416 is claiming that settlement disbandment means the dismantling of Israel. starship .paint (RUN) 23:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vegan416 stressed that it is worth considering [Levivich's] motivations when evaluating the case. Even after the strikeouts, Vegan416 stresses that Levivich is apparently trying to push his ... anti-Zionist views, and still discussing whether Levivich does wish for the end of Zionism. What is the relevance of this? Sanctioning ABHammad (or not) will not end Zionism, does not dismantle Israel, and does not dismantle Israeli society. Separately, let's say editor X has a personal view that there should be a one-state solution to the conflict, combining all inhabitants of Israel, Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank as equal citizens of one new state: Isgazjerubank. Should editor X never file reports at WP:AE then for being 'anti-Zionist'? starship .paint (RUN) 15:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

As a general point, beliefs resembling the "If anything..." statements by ABHammad are essentially conspiracy theories. They are corrosive. They are used to rationalize all sorts of non-constructive and destabilizing activities in the topic area like sockpuppetry, edit warring, tag-teaming, non-compliance with ECR, email canvassing, vote stacking and off-site campaigning and recruitment. They are self-sustaining beliefs used to justify rule-breaking that have a long association with disruption here. They should probably be actively suppressed.

Statement by xDanielx

@Selfstudier: with regard to the Zionism dispute in particular, I think the evidence @Vegan416 collected makes it pretty clear that we have diverged from a neutral viewpoint. It is surprising to see Zionism referred to as colonization, in wikivoice with no qualifications, when there's a long list of notable scholars who take issue with that characterization.

That said, NPOV issues should be fixed through consensus-building discussions, and ABHammad's recent contributions do seem to involve too many reverts with too little discussion. Since this is recent and their broader history seems more constructive, I think they should be given a chance to change this behavior, but it seems they may need a reminder that edit warring is not limited to 1RR/3RR. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 18:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Iskandar323: yes the 1RR violation Selfstudier pointed out is clear, but it involved a ~21 hour gap, and ABHammad self-reverted when it was pointed out. Seems like a timing error. Regarding the other instance, I'm not sure this would be considered a revert? It seems like any deletion might technically fit under the broad definitions of reverts given in WP:3RR and elsewhere, but at least there wasn't a specific recent change being reverted here (the closest seems to be this, almost a month ago). — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 21:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vegan416

I object to this AE request as I had objected to the AE request against Nishidani. In this case, it is clear that Levivich is just trying to push his ~~extreme eliminationist~~ anti-Zionist views~~, exemplified by his statement "We are witnessing the last gasps of Zionism"~~.

@ScottishFinnishRadish: I'll just put here a fuller quote of Levivich here: "The return of left-wing parties to power is just one election away, and settlement dismantlement will soon follow. We are witnessing the last gasps of Zionism". It looks to me that he wishes for the end of Zionism and the dismantling of Israel which he regards as a colonial "settlement". Of course, if I misunderstood him he is welcome to clarify his words. Until that happens I don't see any reason to rephrase. Vegan416 (talk) 20:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: I notice that you still do not say explicitly that you do not wish for the end of Zionism. And when you promote the view that Israel is the outcome of settler-colonialism and then speak of "settlement dismantlement" in the singular it is natural to think you are talking about dismantling of Israel. All in all, your language here about the last gasps of Zionism, which is completely disconnected from reality, doesn't sound like a report about reality, but rather as wishful thinking that reminds one of Iranian rhetoric like that one "Israel Drawing Its Last Breaths, Says Iranian Commander Behind Foiled Drone Attack" (update: especially when you link it to the "last gasps of Zionism"). And thanks for reminding me of your false accusations about my entering a debate just to bludgeon it, including some fancy libelous hints (which I refuted) about how I came into that discussion in the first place. I still ask for an apology for that. Vegan416 (talk) 21:47, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In answer to various new comments: 1. I reject the false accusation of McCarthyism. I didn't say that any administrative actions should be taken against Levivich. In fact, as I have proven in the recent Nishidani AE, I am firmly against taking administrative actions against editors, even when their opinions are loathsome to me, and even when their behavior is problematic (except for cases of extreme abuse, which none of the involved parties here, from either side, seems to be implicated in). 2. I only say that when someone is trying to initiate administrative actions to suppress other editors, as Levivich does here, it is worth considering his motivations when evaluating the case. 3. We can see that one veteran editor here explicitly wishes for the end of Zionism and the dismantling of Israeli society, and another veteran editor seems to see that as a legitimate wish. So the possibility that yet another veteran editor holds this view is not far-fetched, and Levivich himself still uses equivocal language about this issue. Despite that, I'm willing to give Levivich himself the benefit of the doubt, so I stroke some of the words in my initial comment. Vegan416 (talk) 06:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: 1. "Nobody said anything about dismantling Israeli society". Apparently, you missed RolnaldR statement here: "And, for the avoidance of any doubt, I do wish for the end of Zionism and the dismantling of Israel's colonial settler society." 2. Your argument about trolling is just as false. This is a serious argument. 3. If you felt that my statement was drawing focus from your request, then you could just ignore it. After all, we humble editors don't have any vote in here, only the admins. Or you could simply have said from the beginning that you don't wish for the end of Zionism. That would have finished the discussion. That's what I do when I think someone attributes to me something that I don't think. Instead, you are just lengthening the discussion with your still evasive language. Vegan416 (talk) 14:51, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: You are continuing the discussion even as you complain that it is a distraction. I responded to you on my talk page here, so that you don't falsely accuse me of bludgeoning and trolling again, and I suggest that we continue the discussion there if you are interested. Vegan416 (talk) 16:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Starship.paint: As for your question - I didn't say that anyone should be blocked from requesting AE. But if someone asks to "punish" editors who oppose his views, then I think his motives should be considered when deciding whether to accept his request. And I see that in the recent AE request about Nishsidani, there was a discussion about the motives of the complainer, and it didn't look irrelevant to most participants. But anyway, I trust the admins to decide what they consider relevant. And if they think that my argument is irrelevant then they will ignore it. Which is fine by me. And with that I end my participation in this discussion here (unless someone will insist on involving me again).

Statement by KoA

Not involved in the subject, and honestly I've been at odds with Levivich with behavioral things in the past, but it's apparent to even me that Vegan416's comments here towards Levivich are pretty inflammatory as a sort of potshot/aspersion or an attempt at a rhetorical gotcha as Levivich describes it. That does come across to me as Vegan416 being at least one editor raising the temperature in this topic. There's a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude in those comments, and usually CT designations are meant to help keep such editors out of controversial areas.

Even I know referencing Zionism is a charged word that anyone editing the topic should know better than to use it loosely in rhetoric. Maybe Levivich's "last gasp" comment had a tinge of a POV to it or was a little forumy, but the way Vegan416 grabbed onto the Zionism mention to make a leap to assertions on dismantling Israel and asserting that in a "Maybe I'm wrong, but . . . [insert potshot here]" style comment without evidence really rubs me the wrong way. I do feel like you'd have to have a chip on your shoulder to make that jump from what I'm actually reading in Levivich's comments. If Levivich was actually doing what Vegan416 claims (I sure don't see it), then they would have presented actual evidence of it and how that has affected the topic rather than the type of assertions I'm seeing here. Instead, Vegan's comments to ScottishFinnishRadish leave me concerned they'd just double down in the future instead. KoA (talk) 22:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

We are not supposed to be discussing our own or others personal political beliefs, but I for one find outrageous the McCarthyist I notice that you still do not say explicitly that you do not wish for the end of Zionism, and further object to the idea that wishing such a thing is somehow either relevant or incompatible with participation here. So what if he does wish that? You ever wonder why we have no Palestinian editors in this topic area? Things like this. nableezy - 23:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dan Murphy

"... Iranian rhetoric like that one 'Israel Drawing Its Last Breaths, Says Iranian Commander Behind Foiled Drone Attack.'" Subtle! Dan Murphy (talk) 23:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RolandR

It is not only Levivich that believes that we are witnessing the beginning of the end of the Zionist project. In a recent article in New Left Review, Israeli historian Ilan Pappé argues that "We are witnessing a historical process – or, more accurately, the beginnings of one – that is likely to culminate in the downfall of Zionism." Vegan416 is entitled to disagree with this assessment, but not to smear and delegitimise anyone who shares it. And, for the avoidance of any doubt, I do wish for the end of Zionism and the dismantling of Israel's colonial settler society. It is a perfectly legitimate belief. RolandR (talk) 00:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iskandar323

Aside from the general behaviours mentioned, including a lot of reverting, aren't there two very specific instances of very clear and very knowingly performed WP:1RR breaches on templated pages after the user was aware? The first is mentioned by SelfStudier, and the second is visible in the two diffs provided by Levivich, both on the 23 June. That appears to be two blatant breaches in as many months. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@XDanielx: The edit summaries make it plain that they were reverting content based on a disagreement. And yes, material added a month ago counts, especially when it has been contested and is part of a slow-motion edit war. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: The 2x 1RR breach in just over a month has been noticed right? Back in my day, phew one could get in trouble for that. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:42, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's hard to see how Hammad's doggedly persistent habit of drive-by mass revision and edit warring (with often little to no talk page engagement) can be considered constructive or collegiate, and given the persistence of such behaviours even during this AE, how they are expected to refrain from such behaviours with only a slap on the wrist. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning ABHammad

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The edit-warring is concerning, but more concerning is what appears to be removal or negation of a priori reliable sources without apparent justification besides ideological leaning. ABHammad, your entire argument as presented here appears to be that your conduct was justified because you believe yourself correct on the ideological issues, which is not a persuasive argument if you wish to continue editing this topic. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:02, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SFR, my concern above is almost independent of the number of reverts; ABHammad is bringing a battleground attitude to this topic, which to me indicates they're not going to be a net positive within it. I think a logged warning for battleground conduct is the minimum we should consider: tag-teaming is secondary to me (and much harder to legislate against, as you say). Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Vanamonde93, if you'd like to see a topic ban, the real issue here is a group of veteran editors pushing an anti-Israeli viewpoint on Wikipedia, promoting controversial views as encyclopedic facts, and threatening those who oppose them is enough to get me there, as that is plain battleground editing. I just think we need to be holding everyone to these standards. This is not an uncommon type of statement, and the topic is full to the brim with battleground mentality. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm okay with a logged warning, and won't advocate for a TBAN given that you are BK49 appear to be less in favor of one. But I think the emphasis needs to be on the battleground issues, not tag-teaming as such. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about Vegan416

Vegan416, perhaps you'd like to rephrase Levivich is just trying to push his extreme eliminationist anti-Zionist views, exemplified by his statement "We are witnessing the last gasps of Zionism". ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have topic banned Vegan416 from the Arab/Israel conflict, broadly construed for BATTLEGROUND editing, casting aspersions, and inappropriate politicization. I'm still stewing on the actual report. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've read some but not all of what's going on here and hope to have time to fully catch up on this. However, I share ‌Levivich's concern about the comment And still above all you simply refuse to say the simple words "I don't wish for the end of Zionism". Why is that?. I hesitate to suggest one absent the fuller context, and about an editor who this report isn't filed about but feel confident in that assessment. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:44, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having now looked into this, my analysis largely agrees with that on Vanamonde. I think there has been enough good faith efforts at collobartive editing to merit a logged warning rather than a harsher sanction. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:18, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, the conduct I would like to warn about is the battleground attitude for the reasons Vanamonde has pointed out on 22 July and 26 July. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Selfstudier what diff is being restored? Because whatever it is is more than weeks old which seems like an inappropriate amount of time to restore a diff from without a talk page consensus. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is important to me. Because acting like this while at AE is very troubling for me because as it stands now I see that edit as battleground conduct in multiple ways. It makes me lean towards a topic ban rather than a warning. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with a warning for this, but if we're going to start treating single reverts to an article after someone on the same "side" has reverted as edit warring we'll need to hold everyone to that standard. There was concern above about even application of ECR, and this is going to open a much larger can of worms than that. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich, taking Israel and apartheid from your examples to illustrate what I'm saying, we see that Selfstudier has reverted twice [79][80] and Makeandtoss once [81]. The current consensus version seems to match the POV of ABHammad and האופה. How many other articles where Makeandtoss and Selfstudier have both reverted the same content do you think I would find? How many times did would consensus eventually be against their position? Should we warn them for edit warring or POV violations because of this? If we're going to warn someone over this behavior then everyone needs to meet that standard. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:47, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Selfstudier, the current consensus falls closer to what was reverted here, which is what I was pointing out. I'm not saying you should be on the hook, but that if we're going to start looking at reverts broadly like this we'll find it all over the place. As to your question the real issue here is a group of veteran editors pushing an anti-Israeli viewpoint on Wikipedia, promoting controversial views as encyclopedic facts, and threatening those who oppose them is bad, and that should certainly be part of any warning, but if you want action on your edit blatantly promotes false information then, again, that will need to be enforced topic-wide. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:18, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Levivich, I'm echoing what was said by other admins up the page a bit about consistency of enforcement. I'm not saying don't do anything about this, I'm saying that when we do and the next report shows up showing a pattern of editors making the same or similar reverts across multiple pages we can't just shrug it off. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:34, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How do we feel about a warning for battleground conduct and 0rr? Or just a topic ban? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:56, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ytyerushalmi

Ytyerushalmi (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from the Arab/Israel conflict, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Ytyerushalmi

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:40, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Ytyerushalmi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Extended confirmed restriction, 500/30 rule

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19:19, 25 July 2024, removes: " internationally recognized as the occupied Palestinian territories."
19:08, 25 July 2024, ads that the occupied and disputed city of Jerusalem is in "Israel"

These two edits were made after I notified him about the 500/30 rule 16:13, 25 July 2024 , I also asked him to self revert which he declined: [82]

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:13, 25 July 2024

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[83]

Discussion concerning Ytyerushalmi

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ytyerushalmi

According to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles the article should be - "reasonably construed" as in -

"4) For the purposes of editing restrictions in the

ARBPIA

topic area, the "area of conflict" shall be defined as encompassing

the entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted ("primary articles"), and
edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace ("related content")"

Is Or Sasson the related to the Arab-Israeli conflict? If so, then Judo, Clothing and any other article on Wikipedia is related in one way or another to the Arab-Israeli conflict. If one follows your edits, it is clear as day that you are trying to erase as many as possible mentions of Israel. As seen, you reverted my edit to Ori Sasson and Doms in Israel although both Articles are not related to the Conflict. Also, you tried to frame Hanadi Jaradat, a known terrorist, using the ambiguous term "militant" while her actions were objective terrorism.

Being disputed doesn't change the fact that it is de-facto a part of The State of Israel and under its sovereignty, so he was born in Israel. Again, whether disputed or not, it is a fact that relates to him.

I removed it from the Dom article because it is not related to the Doms themselves and there's no need to mention it as it discussed further in the subject of the West Bank itself.

Again, as these two articles are not a part of the Arab-Israeli conflict nor the edits were relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict but to the subjects themselves, and therefore, not under the Arbitration rule, I will not revert.

If his request is accepted, then each and every namespace with the mention of Israel/Palestine and Any Arab country or any other country which had interaction with the region or the entities above and every object, physical or not, geographical or not, that is directly or indirectly related to any of the mentioned entities above should be under the Extended confirmed protection.

Oh no I understand, it just seems very absurd considering the edit and the subjects. If you would check, for other subjects which are an actual part of the conflict, such as Hanadi Jaradat, I did not revert his changes.Ytyerushalmi (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Selfstudier - It doesn't seem like you appear to be in an objective position to recommend.

Statement by Selfstudier

One more in what is turning into a procession of non EC editors contesting without merit WP:ARBECR restrictions. The talk page discussion following the awareness notice is in addition sufficient reason for a sanction. Selfstudier (talk) 16:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Ytyerushalmi

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Ytyerushalmi, the edits are clearly related to the Arab/Israel conflict. If you continue to violate ECR you will be blocked.
Other admins, after reviewing their contribs, basically all of it is ECR violations. Is a warning sufficient here, or should we save our time and just block now? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it will depend on whether they can show they understand their edits fall under our ECR. Their initial response here does not fill me with confidence. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 16:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The battleground swipe at Selfstudier also doesn't do a lot to make me think that we won't be back here shortly. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree and was going to say the same. I think some form of sanction would be better in this situation. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 19:05, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is the solution of "tban broadly until they hit XC" going to work here? Or are we concerned that a sanction that requires the user to limit their own editing is just going to not be followed here? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:21, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm thinking indef tban minimum. Getting to EC isn't going to fix battleground editing. Even a topic ban I think will end up at indef, bit at least we can try it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An indef tban would give them a chance to learn the ropes and correct their behavior. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 01:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm somewhat hesitant to indef TBAN someone with all of 33 edits, all of which are roughly in one particular topic area. It feel either overkill (as WP:BITE notes, [w]e must treat newcomers with kindness and patience... Make the newcomer feel genuinely welcome, not as though they must win your approval in order to be granted membership into an exclusive club) or not enough (should for example, the user simply be WP:NOTHERE). But an indef TBAN here feels odd to me; the principle behind indef TBANs is that the user is productive except in one area, but we don't really have that here if all the edits are in one area. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:36, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Noting Red-tailed hawk's comment above, but am not convinced this is a newcomer. Support an indef tban for wp:battleground conduct, reviewable if/when there's a constructive edit history elsewhere. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

KlayCax

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning KlayCax

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Prcc27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: KlayCax (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:CTOP

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

August 9th, 2024 Added RFKJR to infobox without consensus.
July 21st, 2024 Discussion attempt to add RFKJR to infobox.
June 18th, 2024 Added Cornell West to infobox without consensus.
May 16th, 2024 Discussion attempt to add RFKJR to infobox.
May 13th, 2024 Added RFKJR to infobox without consensus.
March 6th, 2024 Added RFKJR to infobox without consensus.
February 27th, 2024 Discussion attempt to add RFKJR to the infobox.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

December 15th, 2023 Block for edit-warring on Joe Biden article/arbitration decision enforced.
October 7th, 2023 Partial block for edit-warring.
November 4th, 2023 Blocked for edit-warring.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on July 27th, 2022 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

KlayCax has started several different discussions and made actual edits pushing for third-party candidates (especially RFKJR) to be added to the infobox. The July 21st discussion literally was started while discussions on the matter were already ongoing ([84][85]). They have continuously been trying to add Kennedy to the infobox, even though the matter has already been resolved [86][87]. The addition of Cornell West went against the ballot access and polling criteria spelled out in the consensus for state infoboxes. We shouldn’t have to have a discussion with KlayCax every month explaining that there’s no consensus for adding Kennedy at this stage. They have been told their behavior is disruptive, but nonetheless they have persisted. Prcc27 (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to KlayCax: To clarify, this is not an RfC (you just claimed it was in your statement). We came up with a consensus for state infoboxes at the main article’s talk page: 5%+ polling average and ballot access. Cornell West has never had a polling average of 5%+ in Michigan. The main issue regarding you adding West to the infobox is you added someone that is not even on the ballot in Michigan and is polling poorly. This has nothing to do with polling consistency; West has consistently polled below 5%. Prcc27 (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]; Response to KlayCax: Wrong again. Your May 13th edit was made after this RfC was closed on May 12th. Nevertheless, it was clear even before that RfC that consensus was against inclusion. Prcc27 (talk) 19:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]; Response to @Red-tailed hawk: I believe David O. Johnson was the user that was initially planning on reporting KlayCax. But since that user appears to be busy, I offered to take over and make the report in their place. (Please see: [88][89]). Prcc27 (talk) 03:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]; Comment: As far as sanctions go, I think KlayCax should either be topic banned, or given KlayCax’s disruptive actions are not isolated to only one topic, a ban that is more broad may be in order. Prcc27 (talk) 02:13, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]; Note to admins (@ScottishFinnishRadish: @Red-tailed hawk:): I just wanted to let you both know that I added yet another diff of @KlayCax:’s disruptive behavior pushing third party candidates into the infoboxes. A few minutes ago, KlayCax added RFKJR. to the Texas infobox, even though RFKJR. has not appeared in any Harris v. Trump v. Kennedy state polls. Clearly Kennedy fails the polling criterion per consensus. KlayCax is still ignoring WP:CAREFUL, even after I already explained to them that WP:BOLD has limits. Prcc27 (talk) 10:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]; Respond to Super Goku V: The context of my statement was to use the same criteria: polling and ballot access. Nationwide polling for the national infobox; statewide polling for state infoboxes. Never once said qualifying for national infobox = qualifying for every single state infobox. Prcc27 (talk) 11:07, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[90]

Discussion concerning KlayCax

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by KlayCax

Response to Prcc27's initial AE:

To summarize:

Prcc27 is wrong to claim that my opinions violate the principle of WP: POV or that I'm pushing candidates into the infobox. On article after article, including most recently in the 2024 United Kingdom general election (I supported Sinn Féin, Reform UK, Democratic Unionist Party, and other parties being added) I have consistently have been an advocate of broadly displaying the candidates within election articles within the infobox. Differences of opinions among editors is normal. Particularly when it involves controversial subject matter such as the 2024 United States presidential election. Talk page discussion in these instances is a good thing. A look at the edits in question shows it was a good faith attempt to reach consensus. Not an attempt to overturn the RFC.

Furthermore, I was not "attempting" to overturn an "already... resolved [manner]". At no point did I ever even attempt to overturn the RFC. It should be clear by the context that I was polling editors on whether the requirements of the RFC has been made. (As the criteria laid out has been noted by multiple editors as being heavily ambiguous and reliant on contradicting sources.) Because of this, I was clearly pinging involved editors to state that it appears that Kennedy Jr. has either met or was about to immediately meet the requirements of the RFC: being certified in a total amount of states that exceed 270 electoral votes and polling above 5%. The goal of the discussion was to see whether there was now a consensus to add.

The March 6th and May 13th edits were before this RFC or its meaning was concluded. (Added later: The RFC concluded on the 12th. Ballot petitions were seen by many as counting.)

Both Jill Stein and Cornell West are/were polling above 5% and had either reported by WP: RS or confirmed certified ballot access at the time the June 18th edit was made, it was a self-proclaimed WP: BOLD edit, and it was on the 2024 United States presidential election in Michigan article, not the 2024 United States presidential election article. Prcc27 favored a "three poll criteria + 5%" but there was nothing in the linked source to say that this was a consensus of editors. (Even under WP: ONUS) He then removed it, it was not reverted, and I don't feel particularly strong either way or another about West or Stein being in the infobox.

The Lukt64 and Sendpls user edits had nothing to do with discussions on whether the RFC was resolved. Rather, they were just requests to add RFK into the article, so this was not simply "spamming the same thing three times" as argued.

Finally, many editors in mid-July stated that the issue needed to be revisited. The other aspects are clearly taken out of context and not rules violations. KlayCax (talk) 07:46, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Prcc27's reply:

The RFC was this.

1.) I explained my reasoning at the time. Both Jill Stein and Cornell West have polled at or above 5% in Michigan. There was never a consensus on whether 5% should be an average or individual polls (since RFK has been the only one to get both it's not been approached at all outside of our conversations) and the matter was left to editor's discretion.

2.) At the time, local newspapers wrongly reported West's ballot access statement as a fact in their own voice, as West had stated that he had been certified w/ ballot access at the time. (The newspapers in question were of course considered WP: RS and I was working off of that.) In terms of Jill Stein, she has ballot access in Michigan as a member of the Green Party.

3.) Per WP: ONUS it was not reinstated. KlayCax (talk) 21:48, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third Prcc27:

Not true. On May 13th, "ballot access" was seen by many editors as having "had enough petitions" (as clearly visible), it was reverted, a talk page discussion ensured, and it was not reinstated by me per WP: ONUS. KlayCax (talk) 23:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Muboshgu:

Muboshgu's claims that I was violating WP: NPOV in the J.D. Vance and Kamala Harris articles. In response to this:

I was not pushing any kind or sort of "left-wing" point of view in the J.D. Vance article — you seem to be arguing that I'm both violating WP: NPOV by promoting a disproportionate left (on Vance article) AND right-wing perspective (on Kamala article), and with all due respect: that doesn't make sense — by noting that he has been influenced by the Dark Enlightenment movement, a fact and description that he has also claimed and has been widely reported. It certainly does look like vandalism when it's not trimmed but removed from the article entirely. The entire notion that it is POV-pushing seems to be based on the claim that "his opinions on X or Y are unpopular so they shouldn't be in the article". That is of course not what WP: NPOV means. WP: NPOV is about reflecting the opinion of reliable sources. Not "doesn't improve or diminish their standing in the eyes of the median voter". Reliable sources have mentioned J.D. Vance's ties to the "dissent/edgy online right." It certainly does deserve mention on Wikipedia and reactionary thought is by no means too "obscure" a concept or too difficult to understand for readers.

At the time, there was already a Wikilinks for readers who want more detail. I reached out on talk - as you noted - and a majority wanted it kept.

Many American conservatives do use Marxism as an insult against those who hold left-wing economic positions. This is however clearly not what my edits were. Donald J. Harris is considered an economist in the post-Keynesian and Marxian schools of thought. His primary influences are Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and Karl Marx, is labeled a post-Keynesian and Marxian economist by multiple sources, and it's not POV-pushing to mention it, nor "fail verification". It's also typical to list the ideology of economists in the first sentence of the article. (See Richard D. Wolff for instance.) Explanations for both edits were also given on their respective talk pages before the start of the WP: AE.

You left out that I also added at the same time a statement that, which undercuts the idea that Donald J. Harris influenced Kamala to any significant extent. (Donald J. Harris and Kamala Harris are notoriously not close and differ widely on politics.) The difference of the edit can be seen here showing that it was added in at the same time the diffs cited by him were. Are Marxists fans of the Democratic Party? No, of course not. All of this, again, is just differing editorial perspectives that led to discussion. KlayCax (talk) 21:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to SashiRolls:

Edits in question.

The June 12, 2024 edit was in regards to political parties rather than coalitions. Listing New Popular Front or its constituent parties would have been WP: CRYSTAL at the time due to the notorious fragmentation of the French left. The Deccan Herald source in question states: In France, currently there are two major parties in the running, among others. The first is the ruling party, Renaissance(RE), or En Marche! as it was earlier known. The hold the majority in the National Assembly, France's lower house and the Senate... In opposition is Marine Le Pen and her party, National Rally, a.k.a. Rassemblement National(RN). RN is a right wing populist party that recently gained a large number of seats in the 2024 EU elections.

The February 26, 2024 edit was in reference to this article, which starts off by saying: In the often contentious and acrimonious debates over... (in regards to historians/political scientists over the matter.) What was being cited there wasn't the author's opinion on the matter. What was being referred was his meta-analysis of the the state of the literature as of 2023.

The October 1, 2023 edit is sourced to an online survey. That is true. However, telephone surveys have become increasingly inaccurate in recent years due to low-response rates/other factors, with the differences between online/telephone survey accuracy sharply decreasing. Partisan polling is fine as long as it comes from a WP: RS. (See WP:LDS/RS for Deseret News) I also later replaced it with this higher-quality source seen here.

Sourcing in question.

The April 21, 2024 edit sourced The Spectator (WP:SPECTATOR), a WP:MREL, and followed the guidelines for a WP:RSOPINION right-wing view, attributing the view exclusively to Jeff Fynn-Paul.

The September 20, 2023 edit doesn't make the claim. It states that the claim has been widely believed among sociologists. Those are two different claims with two very different meanings.

Final concluding notes:

I'm requesting that the closing admin go through every edit cited before coming to a AE decision. I'm happy to explain any edit that is seem as problematic if need be through private (email) or public response (here).

I do not believe that there was a violation of Wikipedia rules within the differences cited. Many of the individuals commenting have made personal attacks, false WP:SOCKPUPPET accusations, and similar things against me over the past year, but per WP: CIVILITY/WP: AGF guidelines I've been hesitant about mentioning this until now, as not sure what I can write on this outside of vague references.

I've reached the max word limit (~at 1500 albeit going slightly over) to respond to every claim but it should be clear by the above that the claims are baseless and throwing the kitchen sink. KlayCax (talk) 09:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Qutlook

:It may also be noted that KlayCax has been warned in the past on other articles for deceptive editing and has been given a “Final Warning” by ScottishFinnishRadish. Just FYI and my two cents for the time being. Qutlooker (talk) 04:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This has already been stated in the head, please disregard. Qutlooker (talk) 18:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Response to Left guide's first statement) Yes, I did do that complaint. HOWEVER, I did not have the diffs of which people were talking about. So I did not open a case. Qutlooker (talk) 14:41, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Response to Super Goku V’s second statement) Maybe it would be best to clarify that I was told if I wanted disciplinary action against KlayCax I would need to open an AE. Though, as stated, I did not have the diffs that would be needed to properly open an AE request. Qutlooker (talk) 03:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I mean has everyone said what they have wanted to say. Qutlooker (talk) 16:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Response to KlayCax's bulletpoint No. 5) An outlier poll does not, and WOULD NOT argue enough for an inclusion into the infobox, nor does a party "claiming" to have ballot access mean anything until it is fact-checked and proven by factual sources. Qutlooker (talk) 20:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Response to Prcc27’s comment) May it be considered that an indefinite block be done considering you have said that it is not only one topic they interact with. Qutlooker (talk) 04:44, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Response to KlayCax) The max word limit you were told to be under was 1000 words. Not 1500. Qutlooker (talk) 16:00, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have reckon everyone here has made up their minds on KlayCax have we? Qutlooker (talk) 02:32, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by David A

I personally think that this editor seems well-intended and mostly harmless, so I hope that his punishment (if any) will not be unnecessarily harsh. Perhaps he can simply be ordered by a Wikipedia administrator to stop attempting to add West, Kennedy, and other minor candidates to the infobox? David A (talk) 09:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Left guide

It's worth noting that less than a week ago, an apparently similar complaint was lodged at an admin's talk page by a user different from the filer of this request. Left guide (talk) 09:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I ran KlayCax's section into the word count tool and the result was 1241 words, more than double the 500 limit. Left guide (talk) 00:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Muboshgu

KlayCax has made disruptive POV edits at the 2024 US presidential election page as discussed. They have also been disruptive on other articles related to the election, including JD Vance, edit warring over some obscure political views. See Talk:JD Vance#Should there be a summary of Vance's ideology in the lead? for discussion they started after they were reverted. Also they made accusations of vandalism when a user removed information that should have been removed, and "apparent accident deletion/vandalism from WP: SPA. (?)". They also tried to add to Donald J. Harris and Kamala Harris that Donald Harris was involved in Marxism, which fails verification and is a significant POV term used by the right wing in today's US political situation.[91][92] See Talk:Kamala Harris#Removal of Shyamala Gopalan and Donald J. Harris from the lead for more of that discussion. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GreatCaesarsGhost

~~I agree with David A that KlayCax is mostly harmless but deserves some sanction~~. My concern is they are not adhering to WP:RECKLESS. KlayCax is being too bold in making major edits that they know will be subject to revert or controversy. As I noted here[93] they will sometimes act against established consensus due to evolving events that they deem have negated that consensus (when most others disagree). I do wish that they would acknowledge and reflect that criticism of their edits is coming from many editors. GreatCaesarsGhost 16:48, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Striking my prior advocacy for leniency. I have limited engagement with KC, and am thus not in a position to comment on their overall behavior. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Super Goku V

There seems to be some confusion about the RfC that was mentioned due to how it was linked to, so to clear that up it is my understanding that the referenced RfC is "RFC: What should the criteria of inclusion be for the infobox? (Question 1)" --Super Goku V (talk) 03:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To add, the below mentioned archived talk page discussion is relevant to this as it involved discussion on the 22nd and 23rd about KlayCax's talk page edits. There were comments that the appropriate venue was either ANI or AE. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Left guide: Yes, that seems to be from this archived talk page discussion. Qutlook said at the time, After speaking to an admin who has warned KlayCax before for disruptive editing I have been told to do this... One Problem, I don't have those diffs so I don't currently have an open AE request. Not sure why he said he was told to do so, but it is related in my opinion. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Qutlook: Gotcha. I will note above that the archived talk page discussion is still relevant to this discussion. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you mean. If you are referring to your earlier indefinite block comment, then I don't agree on that. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gotcha. For myself, I think that it should be noted that there was a single false SOCKPUPPET accusation, not multiple. Other than that, I think that either ScottishFinnishRadish's or Prcc27's suggested remedies would work. --Super Goku V (talk) 18:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to KlayCax: Just to check, do you understand the word limits as noted at the top of this page? Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. My understanding is that you get 500 words total for your statements, not 500 words per statement. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Striking given the extension request. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Prcc27: I understand the criteria at 2024 United States presidential election having Kennedy listed in the infobox, but I guess not for the other states. This is the discussion you are referring to, correct? If so, can you clarify what you meant by but I think it seems more practical to just follow the lead of the national infobox criteria then? From my reading, it seems to support adding Kennedy to the other articles. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SashiRolls

I agree that the problem is not related to the topic area. I'm not sure I would agree that KlayCax is entirely harmless after having had to spend a lot of time cleaning up after them.

KCx is known for edit summaries which hide the nature of their edits:

12 June 2024 -- While the edit summary is WP:MOS, in fact it introduces POV content not supported by the source supplied. Questioned about this, KCx later provided a link to the Deccan Herald on the TP, which also did not support the sweeping statement, though he wisely refrained from adding it to the entry after two people pointed out the claim he wanted to add to the first line of the lede was nonsense.
26 February 2024 -- @Drmies: writes, "your edit summary makes no sense in relation to the actual edit, and your response is to repeat the same irrelevant citation, this time with a quote which also totally doesn't make your point." and four days later adds "It's just one deflection after another" further suggesting bringing the problem up at ANI for disussion of a topic ban. 2 March 2024

KCx also seems to have trouble identifying reliable sources, beyond the Deccan Herald example cited above.

21 April 2024: Adds back an opinion piece from The Spectator (Cf. its entry at RSN) as the second link in the lede of an entry, after it had been removed.
1 October 2023 adds the results of an online survey conducted on behalf of Skylight, "an initiative of the Radiance foundation". The source states: "Skylight’s mission is to use technology to help young people embrace God-centered spiritual habits.
1 October 2023 adds the same online survey to another top-level page, buried in an avalanche of text.
20 Sept 2023: inserts the claim that the religion in the US is the final "death nail" of the secularization hypothesis based on an article that argues that this claim is empirically false (without using the term "death nail" of course). When questioned on it, he says that it's a poor source (not for the claim, but in general).

Finally, KCx has a habit of creating RfC & RM that are snow-closed against the position they were promoting: Cf. here and here and insists on long discussions about RfCs past they disagree with (see the context of the 26 February 2024 diff above).

I grant some of these diffs are a bit dated, but a pattern is clearly visible over the past year...-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 17:52, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

12 June: The source KCx added didn't support their claim that the RN was one of two major political parties in France in any way. The Deccan Herald article found later is talking about one election. For context, the RN has three out of 348 senators (<1%).

21 April: the second line of the lede says "Remini... states" something. KCx's "marginally reliable" source does not mention Remini even once. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 16:18, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning KlayCax

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Please keep the word limits in mind and only comment in your own sections. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:51, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm not terribly impressed with the response to frequent warnings and blocks for edit warring being badgering and bludgeoning. This seems to be their general behavior whenever there is disagreement rather than isolated to one article or topic. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

KlayCax, I suggest you condense down what you have already. I can tell you I don't find Marxian/Marxist economists see capitalism as being inherently tied to class conflict (albeit this can be repressed in their views through false consciousness) and subsequent exploitation. Many American conservatives do use it as an insult against those who hold left-wing economic positions. This is however clearly not what my edits were. It is an uncontroversial and demonstrable fact that Donald J. Harris is considered an economist in the post-Keynesian and Marxian schools of thought. His primary influences are Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and Karl Marx, he's been described as a post-Keynesian and Marxian economist by multiple sources, and it's not POV-pushing to mention it in the article. It certainly does not "fail verification" and I can provide over a dozen sources on the matter. Furthermore, you left out that I also added at the same time a statement that, which undercuts the idea that Donald J. Harris influenced Kamala to any significant extent. (Donald J. Harris and Kamala Harris are notoriously not close and differ widely on politics.) The diff of the edit can be seen here. Are you under the assumption that Marxists are fans of the Democratic Party? No, of course not.^{194 words, or 2/5 of the word limit} particularly useful. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two things:
1. @Prcc27: Can you explain why this was filed one week after the most recent edit that you've placed in the diff list?
2. @KlayCax: If you would like an extension, please request one at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. But otherwise, please condense down the comment a bit.

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They asked for an extension on my talk page, and I told them to try and keep it under 1000 words. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had missed that. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KlayCax: You're still over the word limit extension by ~500 words. Please condense it, or hat intricate details. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 10:35, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Red-tailed hawk, have you had a chance to look this over yet? With their history of edit warring, and moving on to this IDHT/bludgeoning I'm thinking six month topic ban from the 2024 American presidential election might be the ticket. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken my chance to fully read through all the diffs yet, no. I don't think I will in the next 24 hours, either, so please do not wait on me if you have already found some narrowly tailored approach here that you believe will work. — Red-tailed sock _{(Red-tailed hawk's nest)} 13:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still up in the air between a narrow topic ban here, or something broader. Considering the issues with edit warring that have led to multiple blocks and a final warning before an indef leading in to this recent behavior I'm not certain that a tightly tailored topic ban is sufficient. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SashiRolls appeal of AE Topic ban given in Sagecandor v. Tlroche

SashiRolls topic ban against participating in AE discussions is rescinded. ~~Per a rough consensus of uninvolved administrators, if there is any disruption at AE in the next 12 months any uninvolved administrator may reinstate the topic ban without further consensus.~~ Procedural note: there was also consensus, including from the closing administrator, that the AE restriction listed as part of their unblock restrictions was not a separate community restriction and so no further community appeal was needed. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: SashiRolls (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) –

Sanction being appealed: AE Topic ban, imposed at Sagecandor v Tlroche

Administrator imposing the sanction: Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: User talk:Timotheus Canens#AE appeal (Cirt case)

I was topic-banned from AE (16 December 2016) as a result of making a comment warning about a sockpuppet of Cirt (Sagecandor), who was at the time massively weaponizing AE in order to take out political opponents (among other things).

In retrospect, I would be surprised if anyone were to maintain that this was not a case of shooting the messenger. Since that time, some people have expressed their distaste for Wikipediocracy. Perhaps if en.wp's behavioural "courts" were less likely to sanction whistleblowers, there would be less reason for folks to show diffs of misbehaviour off-wiki rather than trusting internal processes.

Today, with significant evidence to present in an active AE case, I find myself still gagged by this decision protecting former administrator Cirt's Sagecandor sockpuppet.

Though I did request on 24 February 2019 that the admin remove the sanction, they declined to do so and, as such, I have scrupulously respected that AE ban by not participating in any cases to which I was not a named party. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 13:48, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The AE ban having been imposed at AE and having only been mentioned as a pre-existing topic ban, it can obviously be removed at AE, otherwise it would be double jeopardy for having spoken up about a rogue admin sockpuppeting weaponizing AE in 2016. There was absolutely no discussion of the TBAN in question at AN, therefore the "community" is not responsible for it in any way. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 21:22, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After 7.5 years served, this "parole" does not seem to be asking me to never again be found "injecting" ~~unrelated matters~~ evidence of a user's misbehaviour into an AE thread about ~~someone else's~~ that user's conduct. Is that correct? If that is correct, that's fine. If not, please explain further. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As with the dubious (EE) TBAN imposed in the AN close and then subsequently removed by the community, there won't be any problems from me. That I can promise. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by KoA

Posting here as an involved editor since I had to deal with a lot of the battleground issues Sashirolls caused at AE and in the GMO topic.

1. Barkeep49 and Extraordinary Writ, seeing your conversation mentioning Sashirolls wanting to comment in the KlayCax thread above, wouldn't that be in violation of their AP2 topic ban anyways since that dispute seems to be entirely centered on the US election?

2. What really caught my eye here though is Sashirolls' WP:NOTTHEM attitude about their sanction and related behavior. It's dismissive and avoids mentioning what else happened:

Dec 2016 (4 days after AE restriction), they were also blocked (6 months) for disruptive editing and wikihounding, which was closely tied to their AE actions/battleground behavior.
June 2017. After the block expires, they only go a few days until they are blocked for 1 year for continuing similar hounding issues.
May 2019. Sanctioned again for continued personal comments/battleground pursuit.

The point here is that a series of related sanctions occurred closely tied to Sashirolls' pursuit of editors in AE and other venues. The way Sashirolls leaves that context out and dismisses the initial sanction is concerning. Sashirolls even links to their 2019 direct appeal to the admin where the sanctioning admin was clear You were sanctioned for the manner in which you expressed these concerns. . . and This sanction was imposed for injecting unrelated matters into an AE thread about someone else's conduct. . .. Similar comments came up when Sashirolls then appealed at AE that was unanimously rejected, I'd suggest admins review those discussions for more context since this is feeling like a repeat of those.

The NOTTHEM issue came up in their 2020 site ban and appeal to return last year Like that ban appeal, they don't seem to show an understanding of why they were restricted from AE and instead show dismissal of the pursuit of editors problem claiming it was "shooting the messenger" instead. That's usually a sign the sanction is still needed to some degree, especially since they've had trouble not pursuing editors in the past (not getting into their full block/sanction list here). If that sanction had been a more isolated case given its age and the appeal wasn't so dismissive of the behavior that persisted after the initial sanction, then there would be more weight towards the sanction being unneeded. Instead, I'd have to echo what Volunteer Marek asked Sashirolls during an appeal; why would they want to comment at AE? That's especially given the guidance they were given after their site unban to stay away from CT topics. KoA (talk) 00:54, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Result concerning SashiRolls appeal of AE Topic ban given in Sagecandor v. Tlroche

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm probably open to repealing the topic ban completely, but will note that when filing a request someone is inherently a party so I do not think this tban would stop you from filing a request Sashi. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like SashiRolls wants to comment in the KlayCax thread. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:07, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SashiRolls: my suggestion is more "probation" than "parole" (words I both intentionally avoided when writing my thought). If there are no problems in 12 months, it all goes away. If there is disruption, the topic ban could be imposed. I would hope/expect that it would all go away, otherwise I wouldn't be supporting it. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This topic ban was later separately imposed by the community as an unban condition, so even if we lift the first one you'd still have to go back to AN for the second one. I'm not exactly thrilled with this appeal on the merits, but it might make the paperwork easier to just lift this topic ban and let the community sort it out from there. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:07, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The community has the ability to undo the topic ban as well. So given this it seems like the community should just handle it all? Barkeep49 (talk) 21:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would work too. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sashi seems to prefer that AE undo the AE ban which is their right. Given your correction to me of what Sashi wants to do, I'm in favor of "on the merits" (the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed) repeal and as such the tone of the appeal is less bothersome to me. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ping to ScottishFinnishRadish about the community restriction. Was there consensus for the community to double up the AE topic ban or were you just summarizing all the restrictions in one place and so if AE repeals the topic ban, SashiRolls won't also need community approval? Barkeep49 (talk) 21:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see those as the conditions the community required for the unban. I don't know paperwork-wise if that means that the community assumed the topic ban or created their own. As I don't recall any specific discussion on that topic ban I'd say it's fair to call it just the AE tban. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:30, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose I can support (no probation needed); this was an unusual sanction that didn't really fit the problem it was supposed to address, as became clear a few days later. But I don't at all agree with SashiRolls' portrayal of the original sanction as "shooting the messenger", "sanction[ing] whistleblowers" "protecting" sockpuppets, etc., and I agree with KoA that this persistent NOTTHEM attitude doesn't augur well for the future. Hopefully we're wrong. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be OK to remove this AE TBAN, particularly given the context of what has happened thereafter. I do find the title a bit odd; we normally don't title AE complaints as X v. Y (though this might be some legacy thing?), but the title isn't relevant to the substance of the appeal. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same. I also am in favour of repealing on the merits. To clarify, there are three ways to appeal: the community at WP:AN, a quorum of uninvolved admins here at WP:AE, or to ArbCom at WP:ARCA. Either of the former two would be fine for this appeal (the latter probably less so), so like others here, I see no issue with having AE as the venue. El_C 01:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given KoA's feedback and the general consensus here, what are thoughts from other uninvolved admin of removing the TBAN but allowing an uninvolved administrator to reinstate it, if necessary, in the next 12 months. This is possible with a rough consensus here but isn't something normally open to individual admin (though I do think individual admin could cutoff further participation from Sashi in a given AE discussion where there's been discussion). Barkeep49 (talk) 14:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a good idea and compromise. El_C 19:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think a sort of probation here is warranted. The user was unblocked with a good number of conditions, and one has been successfully appealed one so far without any behavioral issues reported. I'm not seeing any evidence of malfeasance by SashiRolls post-2020 presented here, and the current trajectory of the user does not indicate that a parole restriction is necessary. Of course, if I am wrongo and the user does wind up showing persistent behavioral issues here after the topic ban is lifed outright, we can still partially block the user from this page as an ordinary admin action. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like discussion has moved past this, but just to confirm: I don't think it's sensible to construe the unblock as requiring community review of the AE TBAN, and I think this is the proper venue for an appeal. I support removing the TBAN; time served + the revelation of sockpuppetry is enough for me. I'd be fine granting the appeal with or without B49's 12-month parole proposal. Either way, I echo the unblock discussion's suggestion that SR avoid contentious topics and this discussion's suggestion that disruption on this page is very likely to lead to a restored TBAN. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oleg Yunakov

No action. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Oleg Yunakov

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: RAN1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:08, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Oleg Yunakov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

21:57, 27 July 2024: Graphic war image and copyright violation (NSFW) removed from article by third-party.
NSFW: 13:15, 28 July 2024: Oleg Yunakov reinserts the image.
15:19, 28 July 2024 and 15:42, 28 July 2024: I remove the image as copyvio.
Extended discussion under complaints about the image being too graphic.
16:13, 28 July 2024: Oleg Yunakov knew the image was uploaded to Commons the day before the first revert after comparing the time with other sources. RAN1 (talk) 02:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
NSFW: 17:48, 28 July 2024: Oleg Yunakov reinserts the image again, violating 1RR.
18:05, 28 July 2024: Oleg Yunakov knew the image was published in Wikipedia the day before the first revert. RAN1 (talk) 02:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Participated in process about the area of conflict (such as a request or appeal at AE, AN or an Arbitration Committee process page), on 02:14, 7 July 2024.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The image is clearly an upload from social media: Different crops were posted ~~on e.g. X~~ on X that show bystanders at the top (added 14:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)) which could not be derivatives of the image uploaded to Commons. Since this is a copyright violation, I removed it as exempt from 1RR. Oleg Yunakov disputed it, and after deciding my exemption reason was invalid, proceeded to revert and violate 1RR.

I should mention that before I found out that Oleg Yunakov participated at AE, I reported this to ANEW. I withdrew that report before requesting here. RAN1 (talk) 20:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After Oleg Yunakov reverted to bring back the copyvio, I couldn't find a CT alert and the process diff I linked above didn't turn up in search because it was self-reverted. I did find a 1RR warning from a month ago (see here), but I didn't think that counted for awareness, so I ended up sending a CT alert and reporting to ANEW. Then I found the process diff. That's my bad, but reverting to bring back an NSFW suspected copyvio image, after being warned, is abusive at best. RAN1 (talk) 01:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: No, I did not warn 1RR or ask for a self-revert because of the previous discussion here. RAN1 (talk) 15:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Oleg Yunakov: My understanding was your notifications sent you about here, which was obviously not the bottom of the page, so I found it hard to believe you didn't know there was a previous dispute. That convinced me that you knew you had reverted somebody else when you reverted me. I don't know what else you could have understood from being pinged to the first section. RAN1 (talk) 08:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Oleg Yunakov: I just found out you're a prolific uploader to Commons (contribs), you are well aware that only the creator of a photo can license it, and of the differences between creator-uploaded photos and plagiarized ones. I'm incredulous you think that image isn't a copyvio. As for the talk page, the fact that you replied to the bottom of the first section is not an assumption. RAN1 (talk) 18:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've amended my complaint to include diffs where Oleg Yunakov discusses when the image was uploaded and published. They show that Oleg Yunakov knew the image had been published in Wikipedia before the first revert around the time of the second. RAN1 (talk) 02:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: The underlying issue here isn't being addressed; Oleg Yunakov edit warred over an obvious copyvio image because the non-derivatives we found were published after the Commons upload. In any case, that turns the 1RR exemption on its head, and considering I brought up 1RR at 15:43, 28 July 2024, I request you explain why this should be closed with no action. RAN1 (talk) 16:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

20:09, 28 July 2024

Discussion concerning Oleg Yunakov

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Oleg Yunakov

The info was provided here. Those continuous actions start to look like a harassment (1, 2, 3, 4). With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 20:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC) Till now still there is no confirmation of copyright issues or at least copies found which were published before the time when an image was uploaded to Commons as can be seen here. If someone thinks otherwise please provide reasoning why. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 18:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC) Also I did only one addition and just one revert after no valid argument were given on the copyright violation. Did no do any reverts after it. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 18:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RAN1: You understanding is incorrect. My main wiki is ruwiki and here I spend a very little time. I didn't check prior history of edits and only read what you wrote to me and any subsequential discussion. You could mention that there were prior reverts and not to assume things like your assumption that the image is copyvio when no one was able to provide any earlier posts of the image till now. If you perform two reverses and refuse to undo when being asked do no assume that others are like this as well. I usually speak and listen to the arguments and would revert if I see that any rule is violated. If that wouldn't be the case I'd not be a ruwiki sysop for many years and arbcom member and many other things. Communication is a great tool. But this was a good learning experience and now I know how to file arbcom requests here. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 11:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BilledMammal

First, the exemption only applies to "clear copyright violations". This is not a clear violation, being based solely on RAN1's suspicions, so it doesn’t apply here - RAN1 should not have violated 1RR, and should have self-reverted when asked.

Second, RAN1 did not follow the gentleman’s agreement by asking Oleg to self-revert before coming here.

I think a boomerang is appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 23:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SFR, I don’t think "good faith copyvio concerns" Is sufficient to meet the standard of WP:3RRNO, as good faith concerns can exist without the copyvio being clear.

Further, the image js still on commons over a week later - at this point, I think it is time for RAN1 to self-revert. BilledMammal (talk) 17:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Oleg Yunakov

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

In my view, the copyright concern was reasonable enough that it meets the threshold for 3RRNO, or at least that I wouldn't take immediate action for the 1RR violation. RAN1, did you inform them of the 1RR violation and ask them to self-revert? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If there is no other admin input in the next day I'll be closing this as no action. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RAN1, I'm assuming good faith that what they said here was true, I didn't check prior history of edits and only read what you wrote to me and any subsequential discussion. They didn't think they had violated 1RR, you didn't ask them to self revert while explaining the situation, and you had good-faith copyvio concerns. The whole thing is a wash. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am okay with ScottishFinnishRadish's proposed closure. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GreekParadise

GreekParadise partial blocked for one week by ScottishFinnishRadish. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:18, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning GreekParadise

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: GreekParadise (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: 1RR

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19:47, 1 August 2024 Ads US recognition in lead of article.
15:00, 1 August 2024 Ads US recognition in lead of article.
14:28, 1 August 2024 Ads US recognition in lead of article.
13:37, 31 July 2024 Ads US recognition in lead of article.
03:25, 31 July 2024 Ads US recognition in lead of article.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Was notified before: [94]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning GreekParadise

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by GreekParadise

Statement by (username)

Result concerning GreekParadise

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Blocked for a week from Golan Heights. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Astropulse

Astropulse (talk · contribs) blocked for one week from Hamas for violating 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Astropulse

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Astropulse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Violated WP:1RR at Hamas with 13:16, 1 August 2024 which reinstated several earlier reverts, with the justification reverting because of violation of WP:3RR and 1 edit revert max 24hrs. The most self-evident of these reverts is 06:19, 1 August 2024, which reverted 20:46, 31 July 2024.

They have refused to self-revert or discuss further, saying that consensus is required to restore the previous content. My assessment of the talk page discussion is that consensus is against their edit.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 4 July 2024

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Astropulse has now, rather than self-reverting, expanded one of the sections their revert affected, making it harder for them to self-revert. BilledMammal (talk) 03:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Astropulse, this wasn’t your only revert, just the most self-evident. BilledMammal (talk) 05:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

02:14, 3 August 2024

Discussion concerning Astropulse

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Astropulse

I have explained my reasoning on my talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Astropulse

There is already discussion about this here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hamas#Neutrality

BilledMammal is not involved in any of these discussion. People are okay with the current version. We are debating on how to include details about oct 7 attacks without violating NPOV

Edits in question is an attempt to fix NPOV issues flagged by other editors.

some consensus reached here : quoting replies from article talk page

I don't think the article currently needs an NPOV tag, and I would support its removal. Hemiauchenia (talk)

After the latest edits I agree, although I still think the original edit that emphasised the war crimes and stated the background to the ongoing war was a better article Stratojet94 (talk)

+1 FortunateSons (talk)

Astropulse (talk) 02:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you want me to revert to? You want me to revert to a version that violated NPOV ? please read the hammas talk page. latest replies by Hemiauchenia, Stratojet94 and FortunateSons. Good progress has been made to resolve the differences. People agree, current version is better and we are close to remove the NPOV tag. We are still ironing out few last pieces. Astropulse (talk) 02:32, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
quoting replies from article hammas talk page

I don't think the article currently needs an NPOV tag, and I would support its removal. Hemiauchenia (talk)

After the latest edits I agree, although I still think the original edit that emphasised the war crimes and stated the background to the ongoing war was a better article Stratojet94 (talk)

+1 FortunateSons (talk) Astropulse (talk) 02:33, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish people has made further edits to fix issues in my edit. BilledMammal is not the involved editor. Im tagging @Hemiauchenia whose edit i reverted. I think we resolved most of the differences. Please confirm. BilledMammal is claiming i need to revert this [[95]] Astropulse (talk) 02:42, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hemiaucheniawe have some consensus from some other people about current version. reverting all changes will take more time to resolve the NPOV. We should work to resolve issue by making further edits not reverting to old version. Astropulse (talk) 03:20, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see WP:DRNC and WP:DOREVERT Astropulse (talk) 03:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ ScottishFinnishRadish Please see WP:DRNC and WP:DOREVERT - i think this discussion should be closed as per WP:PRESERVE and make further edits to make improvements. Astropulse (talk) 03:33, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still maintain i only did one revert [[96]]. this edit [[97]] is minor - even though appear to be a revert - it is an edit because this tag is no longer needed as no more edits were made on that topic Astropulse (talk) 03:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also i want to confirm the edit i reverted [[98]] is as per wiki policies.

It says in WP:3RR that "A series of consecutively saved reverting edits by one user, with no intervening edits by another user, counts as one revert." But here there were intervening edits made by other user [99]] Is this revert [[100]] by Hemiauchenia still count as one revert? Astropulse (talk) 04:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish

I acknowledge that my edit technically constituted a 1RR violation, and I apologize for any confusion it caused. My primary intention was to address the NPOV concerns raised by multiple editors on the talk page. My edits were aimed at improving the article and aligning it with Wikipedia’s neutrality standards.

As noted in the talk page discussions, there is a developing consensus that the current version, which includes my edits and subsequent adjustments by other editors, is an improvement over the previous version.

Given this context, I propose that we continue to refine the article collaboratively rather than reverting to an earlier version that still had unresolved neutrality issues.

I understand the importance of adhering to the 1RR rule, I will take more time to read it fully. But i think we should balance it with other policies. Also i have not involved in edit warring with BilledMammal. If there is a problem - i think it is with Hemiauchenia - who has not made this Enforcement request.

I have no further comments on this matter. Do what you feel is right. Astropulse (talk) 18:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hemiauchenia

I am confused. The accused made some edits to the Hamas page, I did a reversion back to a previous version before these edits were made (as I was entitled to do under the 1RR). The accused then reverted my reversion under mistaken logic that I was violating the 1RR. As far as I am aware, they did not make a revert on the page prior to that during the previous 24 hour period, so I assumed that they were entitled to make that revert under the 1RR even if their logic was wrong. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I get it, they did make a technical (not clearly demarked) revert several hours prior, though the actual content change was pretty minor. I agree that they did violate the 1RR. One issue is that the changes to the lead will have to be reverted manually (I am okay with my edits being undone as part of this, as they were partially restoring the previous version anyway). Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:08, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

Regarding Astropulse's "consensus reached here : quoting replies from article talk page", since Stratojet94 is not extendedconfirmed and should not be participating in that discussion, their views have no bearing on assessments of consensus. That statement should probably be struck out. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by FortunateSons

There is also this gem. It’s not catastrophic or anything, but I think it’s clearly over the line, particularly within a Contentious Topic. FortunateSons (talk) 08:29, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Astropulse

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Astropulse, nothing in your explanation meets the exceptions in WP:3RRNO. Please self revert. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:26, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If other editors believe that version is correct then they can restore it, provided they have not made a revert. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Astropulse, yes, that revert by Hemiauchenia was a single edit and therefore a single revert. Also the essays you cite are not included in WP:3RRNO, out edit warring policy. Your lack of understanding of the policy coupled with doubling down with your editing while this discussion is ongoing doesn't inspire much confidence that this won't recur. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:27, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So that's a no on the self-revert? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

O.maximov

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning O.maximov

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: O.maximov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPIA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

On Aug 3, O.maximov reinstated one of ABHammad's edits. (ABHammad received a 0RR restriction at Jul 31 20:52, see #ABHammad.)

O.maximov Aug 3 edit 1 at Israel
- O.maximov changed were expelled by Jewish and then Israeli forces or fled to were expelled or fled due to various causes with the edit summary last consensual version of this before weight changes
- However, this is not the "last consensual version." In this edit, O.maximov reinstated an edit by ABHammad June 23 that introduced the various causes language, changing were expelled or made to flee, by paramilitaries and later its military, an expulsion known as the Nakba to were expelled or made to flee due to various causes. This edit was changed by Nableezy on Jul 31 15:34 to were expelled by Jewish and then Israeli forces or fled from the territory Israel would come to control.
- There has been discussion about this line since May at Talk:Israel/Archive 105#Nakba in the lede, and a pending RFC at Talk:Israel#RFC: How should the Nakba described?
- The "due to various causes" language is whitewashing via WP:WEASEL words, an example of Nakba denial. "Various causes" is a dogwhistle for debunked theories like "they left voluntarily" or "their leaders told them to leave," intended to distract from the actual cause, which is violence by the Yishuv.

Other similar issues:

O.maximov Aug 3 edit 2 at Israel
- Changes Israel has established and continues to expand settlements... to Israel has established settlements, removing and continues to expand, with edit summary This can be trimmed without changing the meaning
- Of course, it significantly changes the meaning, again whitewashing that settlement expansion continues to this day (e.g. AP News July 3, 2024: "Israel turbocharges West Bank settlement expansion with largest land grab in decades")
Jul 24 (combined diff) at Israel
- Jul 24 11:39, edit summary More on media
  - removed that Israel is behind Qatar
  - added positive content about Israel (Israeli media is diverse, reflecting the spectrum of Israeli audiences.)
  - added that Al Jazeera is Qatari
- Jul 24 11:41, edit summary One time event, wp:bold
  - removed negative content about Israel seizing journalists' equipment
- Jul 24 11:50, edit summary reasoning
  - added that Israeli officials accuse Qatari Al Jazeera of promoting antisemitism and terrorism
Tag-team edit warring at Israeli–Palestinian conflict: ABHammad Jun 24, O.maximov Jun 24, ABHammad Jun 28 - note these are such "blind reverts," that they even change "https" to "http", a sure sign that people are pressing the undo button without paying attention to what they're undoing
At Zionism in June-July (same "colonization" edit-war I've posted before that was the catalyst for #ABHammad filing; these are just the O.maximov/ABHammad edits): ABHammad June 10 (another), O.maximov June 11, ABHammad July 2, O.maximov July 3, ABHammad July 21
At Genocide of indigenous peoples: ABHammad May 24, O.maximov May 27 (ABHammad June 23, and again)
At 2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses May 19-20
- "Some" to "Numerous"
  - O.maximov May 19 - changing Some prominent pro-Israel figures have described the protests as antisemitic, ... to Numerous antisemitic incidents, characterized by hate speech, violence, and discriminatory behavior targeting Jewish students, were documented during the protests.
  - ABHammad May 20 - Allegations of antisemitic incidents were documented during the protests, ... back to Numerous ...
- Removing see also link to Anti-apartheid movement in the United States: O.maximov May 19, ABHammad May 20
- O.maximov May 31 removed content about violence by pro-Israeli protesters with edit summary One case is undue. However, they added (or expanded) content about single instances of violence by pro-Palestinian protesters on May 19 here (literally begins the line with In one instance...), here, here, and here.
- O.maximov also May 19 - changes allegations to incidents
- Another, same day - changes ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to displacement of Palestinians

My first complaint was at ABHammad's talk page (O.maximov was pinged): User talk:ABHammad#Enough already. My second complaint was at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive336#Nishidani in July, which I notified O.maximov about on their user talk page. My third complaint was at #ABHammad (O.maximov was pinged).

Aside from the tag-team edit warring, the edit summaries are not accurate, and the edits push a pro-Israeli POV. Levivich (talk) 18:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

No previous sanctions AFAIK, but multiple user talk page threads: User talk:O.maximov#March 2024, User talk:O.maximov#May 2024, User talk:O.maximov#WP:1RR at 2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses, User talk:O.maximov#June 2024, User talk:O.maximov#prior accounts, User talk:O.maximov#Editing against a clear consensus

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

alert, response

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Re Vanamonde93's question about talk page edits:

Israel and the Nakba/"various causes" edit: 2021 discussion predates the account; no participation by O.max in the March or May discussions. O.max did vote in the RFC back in June, but otherwise no talk page comments about this issue (though there are talk page comments about other issues).
Israel and the settlement expansion edit, or the Jul 24 media-related edits, I don't see any relevant discussion on the talk page by O.max or anyone else
Israeli–Palestinian conflict: no talk page edits
Zionism: three talk page edits in July:
1. Jul 3 10:42 - arguing for "re-" establishment, and "I will be adding this factual information shortly", which was followed by the Jul 3 edit diff'd above, which is just repeating the same edit that O.max previously made on June 11 (and ABHammad on June 10, July 2, and July 21, plus other editors on other dates)
2. Jul 3 11:16 - Agreeing with 916crdshn that there is no consensus for "colonization" and arguing WP:ONUS
3. Jul 3 11:46 - calling for WP:AGF w/r/t 916crdshn (now CU blocked as compromised account)
Genocide of indigenous peoples: O.max voted in the RFC the day after making the revert Special:Diff/1226134653; no other talk page posts
2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses: no talk page edits

Something else I noticed today. I initially skipped over these diffs because of the innocuous edit summaries, but on further look, at Israel lobby in the United Kingdom on Aug 1, O.max basically rewrote it to turn it into a conspiracy theory -- as in, the existence of an Israel lobby in the UK is a conspiracy theory: 1, 2, 3; there are more edits, but those three are indicative. Search the article (any revision) for "conspiracy" and note that the sources do not even come close to supporting this notion. It's a complete misrepresentation of sources and some of the most blatant POV-pushing I've seen, even in the context of the blatant POV-pushing I've been complaining about lately. Levivich (talk) 16:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PeleYoetz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (CTOP alert Jun 21) has repeated the "O.maximov Aug 3 edit 1" diff'd at the beginning of this report. This is their first edit to the article, no edits to the talk page. Levivich (talk) 15:43, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BK49: That book does not say that the Israeli lobby in the UK is a conspiracy theory, it gives examples of conspiracy theories involving the Israeli lobby in the UK, which doesn't mean that the lobby itself is a conspiracy theory, i.e., that the lobby doesn't actually exist. By analogy, there are lots of conspiracy theories involving Freemasonry, that doesn't mean the Freemasonry is a conspiracy theory, or that they don't actually exist.

We would not tolerate someone changing the short description for the Freemasonry article to Alternatively a conspiracy theory or group of fraternal organizations, but that is what O.max did at the Israeli lobby article in this edit.

The Freemasonry article mentions conspiracy theories in the last lead paragraph, it does not mention conspiracy theories as the first thing in the lead sentence. But O.max changed the lead of the Israeli lobby article from this:

The Israel lobby in the United Kingdom are individuals and groups seeking to influence the foreign policy of the United Kingdom in favour of bilateral ties with Israel, Zionism, Israel, or the policies of the Israeli government.

to this:

The idea of an Israel lobby in the United Kingdom has been used to raise conspire theories regarding a "Jewish plot" to influence Britain are individuals and groups and alternativly refers to those seeking to influence the foreign policy of the United Kingdom in favour of bilateral ties with Israel, Zionism, Israel, or the policies of the Israeli government.

These edits are, if not POV-pushing, at least a serious misapplication of WP:DUE. Levivich (talk) 22:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BK: I agree that "The idea of an Israel lobby in the United Kingdom has been used to raise conspire theories" is not, in and of itself, a conduct problem. And if that was all there was, I wouldn't have brought it up. But when you put that change -- putting the "been used to raise conspiracy theories" right up front -- together with the short description edit ("Alternatively a conspiracy theory or [a lobby]"), and then the comment here in this AE ("Many sources use the word conspiracy also ... Others say Israel has a big and powerful lobby ... I wanted to show both sides ... The body had both ideas. I think there is an Israel lobby ... Sources also say that this can be exagerated into a conspiracy theory. Therefore, both need to be in lead."), this shows, I think quite clearly, that he thinks there are two views of the Israel lobby: (1) it's a conspiracy theory, it doesn't exist, and (2) it's a real thing that exists. That is not a content dispute, that is -- take your pick -- POV pushing to suggest that there isn't such a thing as an Israel lobby (that would be a moon-is-made-of-cheese level falsehood), a reading comprehension problem (because no source questions whether the Israel lobby exists, and no source says that its existence is, itself, a conspiracy theory), or a total lack of understanding of WP:DUE (because the fact that the lobby has been used to raise conspiracy theories is, by no means, the very first thing that should be said in the article, under any reasonable application of WP:DUE, even an incorrect, but reasonable, application would not arrive here).

So this isn't a good-faith content dispute, it's either POV pushing or CIR, both are conduct problems. The end result is that they changed the article to question whether the Israel lobby actually exists -- that's a major problem, in my view. It's disinformation, not just misinformation. It's an attempt to cover up the very existence of the Israel lobby, to cast doubt on it. If it comes from a genuine belief that maybe the lobby isn't real, it's CIR; otherwise, it's POV-pushing.

Combine that with the other edits, and I think it's pretty clear. Look at my examples, from the top, they are:

Aug 3: changing the text from the Nakba was caused by Israel to the Nakba was caused by "various causes"
Aug 3: removing content about Israel and media that makes Israel look bad or second to an Arab country, while adding content that makes the Arab media look bad instead
Jul 24: eliminating content that says Israel continues to expand settlements
Jun 24: a bunch of changes, but including changing "expelled or fled" to "fled or expelled," removing a line about Palestinian right to resist; adding attribution of Palestinian justifications to Norman Finkelstein (a particularly controversial figure, but by far not the only person who has said what is attributed to him), while expanding Israeli justifications in wikivoice
Jun 11 and Jul 3: removing "colonization" from the lead of Zionism
removing mention of Israel of the indigenous genocides article
on the campus protest article, changing "some" to "numerous," and removing violence by pro-Israelis but adding violence by pro-Palestinians
Recasting the Israeli lobby in the UK article to say it's maybe a conspiracy theory, and doubling down on that interpretation at AE

Anybody got an example of O.max making a pro-Palestinian edit? I suppose YMMV but it's pretty clear to me. Levivich (talk) 17:19, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: Special:Diff/1238598820

Discussion concerning O.maximov

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by O.maximov

Levivich, I respect different thinking. You must respect that I think differently. If your purpose is for me to say that Palestinians fled or were expelled then there is no problem. I have no problem saying this and other stuff. It is a problem that you post on my page just a link and expect me to press the link. It is a problem that first thing I get from Nableezy is that he asked me if I have prior accounts. The answer is no. I don't know why you behave like this. You have a problem with a person, you speak to the person. I invite you to my talk page to discuss things. I saw Levivich posted stuff on 1RR. Bro, you are a senior editor. You know it's not 1RR. I also did my best to kindly explain to Unbandito who posted it why it's not a 1RR violation. All the warnings you posted are really unrelated. Nableezy asks me if I have another account. I told him - no. Here someone says I edited against consensus, I say - look at the page! You see many people are saying different things! You posted a message I got because I was not writing encyclopedically on Economics, I understood and improved my writing. But Levivich, why don't you post on my talk page and explain? Nableezy can you explain which edit I did is against consensus and which consensus (You posted discussions)? I have no problem talking, look at all my talking in Israel and in other articles. I have no problem to talk. If you wish to collaborate as I do, you should treat others with respect, and this does not help to improve the temperature. O.maximov (talk) 10:54, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: the Israel lobby is viewed by some as a conspiracy to say there is a Jewish plot to control the UK, the British media… Many sources use the word conspiracy also:

Others say Israel has a big and powerful lobby that influences UK politics like other countries which other sources indicate. The body had a big problem of synth and no sources to back stuff. I fixed it (it is back to the same because of the rv). The body said many things and the lead didn’t. I wanted to show both sides. It’s also what I edited in the short description. If the page is only supposed to show the real lobby I am sorry, I thought it was neutral to show both sides. O.maximov (talk) 10:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde93, ScottishFinnishRadish, Barkeep49

The article talks also about British Politics, MPs and their remarks in the body. [101] [102], [103], [104] , [105] , [106], [107] , [108], [109] The article also talks about Jewish community being scared of what some say is a conspiracy theory. [110]. Here sources talk about Israel/Zionist lobby as exaggerated as a conspiracy theory. [111],

[112] the “The Power of the Zionist Lobby” subsection under the “United Kingdom” section as well as the sentence on “engaging in conspiracies about Israel’s power that draw on anti-Semitic tropes”.,

[113] , page 1,7,8

[114] talks directly about Israel lobby being used as a conspiracy and explains why,

[115] “Conspiracist antisemitism is found across the political spectrum. For every left-winger who believes there is a well-funded Zionist lobby inventing fake smears of antisemitism to prevent a socialist government, you will find a comparable right-winger who holds George Soros responsible for immigration”. ,

[116] , page 110 - 112, all relevant, specific sentence also relevant “The conspiracist element of ‘new antisemitism’ is most obvious in discussions about the existence and the machinations of what has become known as the Israel/Zionist/Jewish lobby. A common assumption of left-wing anti-Zionist critique is that Israel commits its fiendish acts with the unwavering political, military and financial support from America and to a lesser extent Britain, whose governments are in the grip of the menacing and all powerful pro-Israel lobby”. , [117] “A more recent example of how such ideas can appear in mainstream media coverage of Jews, Zionism and Israel was found in the 2009 dispatches documentary by the British journalist Peter Oborne, entitled “Inside Britain’s Israel Lobby” … This misses the point that using such a framework to explain Jewish or Zionist political activism relies, however unwittingly, on ideas and common understandings drawn from preexisting antisemitic conspiracy theories in order to make sense to its audience. At the very least, it was inevitable that antisemites would, and did, interpret it as an endorsement of their own conspiracy theories about Jews”. , [118], [119] pg 60, 65,66, [120] page 31 to 32 from “Within Labour” to “modern Labour politics” [121] “Labour MPs were found to have used “anti-Semitic tropes and suggesting that the complaints of anti-Semitism were fakes or smears.” A case cited in the report involved former London Mayor Ken Livingstone, who said “the Israel Lobby,” which aimed “to undermine Corbyn’s leadership,” was responsible for allegations of anti-Semitism against fellow Labour MP Naz Shah. Livingstone later resigned from the party. The EHRC found a further 18 “borderline cases” involving local councillors, election candidates, and branch officials. It also noted several incidents of political interference by the Leader of the Opposition’s Office in addressing complaints of anti-Semitism. ”. My mistake was not to attribute to Haaretz in the lead. I am sorry about it. I know about WP:NOR and WP:V but I thought that it was established enough without written attribution in the lead. O.maximov (talk) 17:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No Vanamonde93, my opinion is irrelevant. Like fiveby said, the body existed before. The body had both ideas. I think there is an Israel lobby, just like every country has a lobby. Sources also say that this can be exagerated into a conspiracy theory. Therefore, both need to be in lead. That is why the body and the page before me, speaks of both Groups and individuals who seek to influence policy and alternatively a conspiracy theory. That is what sources say and that is what I wrote. O.maximov (talk) 19:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

We had a previous consensus on this material and edit warring without a new one should result in sanctions for disruptive editing. Full stop. nableezy - 19:04, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish Talk:Israel/Archive 80#new paragraph on conflict for lead nableezy - 12:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Israel/Archive 102#Clarify details about explusion in lead. nableezy - 13:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also I wouldn't call the bit on violence in protests some fairly straightforward partisan editing, that is blatantly tendentious. Either you think a single instance does not belong or you think it does, but O.maximov apparently changes what they think based on whose violence is being discussed. Violence by pro-Israeli protestors, oh dear not we cant have that, violence by pro-Palestinian protestors must be included and expanded. That is, to my mind, textbook tendentious editing. The bit on the seizure of the AP equipment, an event that resulted in the US demanding its return and was covered extremely widely, is likewise textbook tendentious editing. Same for this diff with its easter egg wikilinks and the fact that the source it cites for supposed reasoning leads with "The government will not make public the details of position papers submitted by the security services saying that Al Jazeera has harmed Israeli security, following a cabinet decision on Monday to temporarily shut down the Qatari news network." They are not simply politely pushing a POV, which itself is banned. There are users that are not engaging in attempting to productively discuss content disputes with the aim of coming to some agreement or consensus on what to include, they are simply acting as roadblocks. This is one of them. nableezy - 14:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

Checkusers should be run on O.maximov and ABHammad.

Regarding "It is a problem that first thing I get from Nableezy is that he asked me if I have prior accounts. The answer is no." From a purely technical perspective the question seems reasonable to me. When I look at the proximity of the O.maximov account to other accounts using a variety of different techniques, I would like to understand why the closest matches are to blocked accounts with a single master, here and here, for example. Perhaps these are false positives, but if they are not, this AE report is a waste of time and sanctions will have no impact. Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:53, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding "I find the calls for CU as unconvincing...". A reason to conduct a CU is that the amount of work required to process the AE report, and the effectiveness of potential sanctions are dependent on the result of a CU. It's about efficiency and the optimal ordering of actions. If an account is found to be a disposable sockpuppet account, there is no need to spend time evaluating their editing or imposing sanctions. Assuming good faith is not the optimal approach in all cases. Other approaches can have more utility. I would argue, like FortunateSons, that it should be standard practice for AE reports once the report has been accepted as worth spending time on. The potential costs associated certain actions, like edit warring, are different for socks and non-socks. So, the likelihoods of the behavior are different. Willingness to edit war is itself an indictor that an account may be a sock because the cost of sanctions to them are zero. Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ABHammad

This is the second time this month I have seen Levivich doing what seems like a weaponization of this noticeboard against editors who do not share their point of view based on their politics (and they are unsuprisingly joined by others). Previously, they accused me and other editors of tag teaming—a very serious allegation—without providing substantial evidence. While I received a 0RR sanction (rightfully), their tag teaming allegations were dismissed. Going over the new allegations, I don't see anything close to a sanctionable violation of anything. It's all content disputes that can and should be solved through discussions. But, I don't see any attempt by Levivich to do so, nor did they even try to discuss the issues with O.maximov personally. And the above claims about 'previous consensus on this material' are clearly false (if anything is happening on ARBPIA right now is forced controversial changes that take place without any attempt to achieve consensus). I think it might be time to consider sanctions of the WP:Boomerang sort. ABHammad (talk) 12:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by FortunateSons

I think the suggestion of a CU is reasonable, and really should be standard practice in any topic area as a contentious as this one once there is reasonable suspicion.

Having said that, I’m not seeing conduct that goes beyond the ‘standard’ biased editing, with decent talk page engagement and no “horrible” conduct. While I’m not inherently opposed to banning for such conduct, a ban for that might catch some of our more experienced editors too, and despite some people’s well-reasoned objections, I don’t think banning most frequent contributors and starting fresh is likely to do us any good. As such, biased editors (and this seems to be closer to bias than ‘true’ partisanship) are the unavoidable norm.

Regarding the filer, while I wouldn’t say that we are at a boomerang yet, they should be mindful about weaponising AE; considering the past talk page discussion, a sockpuppet investigation would have been the more productive avenue for this. FortunateSons (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by fiveby

Levivich, take a look at the "Politics" section for the version prior. It has Tam Dalyell's "cabal of Jewish advisers", Jenny Tonge's "financial grips", and Chris Davies' "enjoyed wallowing in her own filth" to start. I don't think you can claim that the article is merely concerned with the existence of an Israel lobby. O.max did not write that section, "the existence of an Israel lobby in the UK is a conspiracy theory" is your framing and near as i can tell not his, and if not limited to 'existence' or UK there are a number of sources which will use the words "conspiracy theory".

Vanamonde93, ScottishFinnishRadish what exactly is so extremely concerning about this diff, or the other two—no doubt bad edits to a bad article—which call for a TBAN for those alone? fiveby(zero) 07:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC) fiveby(zero) 07:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49 The best source here is probably Walter Russell Mead's The Arc of a Covenant, but it's really mostly discussed in relation to U.S. and Walt and Mearsheimer work. In my opinion those are bad edits, that politics section should probably be dialed back on the conspiracy POV, it's just the hyperbole here is unwarranted. Thanks for looking. fiveby(zero) 21:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by xDanielx

The accusations of whitewashing, dogwhistles, or Nakba denial based on various causes are a stretch. Similar language remains on the current Israel page: various reasons and numerous factors. We also have a whole page examining the various causes of the exodus: causes of the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight. There's a consensus among scholars (today) that expulsions occurred, but not about the significance of other causes. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 05:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning O.maximov

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Nableezy, which material are you talking about? The Nakba in the lead of Israel?
I'm seeing some fairly straightforward partisan editing, but not anything severely out of the norm in the topic. Although that is a bit concerning, I'm more interested in where their editing has violated established consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Vanamonde93 about those most recent diffs. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fiveby, unilaterally changing the topic of an article from lobbying efforts by a country in another country to a conspiracy theory or groups and individuals seeking to influence UK foreign policy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still parsing some of this; to me the distinction between tendentiousness partisanship is at least partly determined by whether the user is justifying edits on the talk page and/or otherwise engaging in discussion; I'm less happy with reverts or substantive changes in the absence of consensus without accompanying substantive talk page engagement. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am still struggling to wade through the morass of talk page discussions. But Levivich's recent diffs are extremely concerning, these two in particular: [122], [123]. I would consider a TBAN for those edits alone. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A unilateral POV change would be concerning, per SFR, but to me it's more than that; it's a unilateral change to the lead and framing, without supporting sources and without an equally substantive change to the body. The statement justifying it here at AE is bordering on a competence issue. This source (the 9th O.maximov provided, the first I clicked on) speaks of a single British MP, who claimed Tony Blair was being influenced by a coterie of Jewish advisors, and who was roundly criticized for saying so. It has no bearing at all on the claim that the Israeli lobby is a conspiracy theory, or otherwise; because there is no substantive analysis of the phenomenon in the source at all. I have no opinion on the existence or otherwise of an Israeli lobby; but if someone writes that it is a conspiracy theory, I expect that claim to be backed up by multiple heavyweight sources explicitly supporting that. O.maximov needs to show they can comply with WP:NOR and WP:V before they are allowed to mess around in a contentious topic. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your errors go a lot further than that, O. maximov. There is a profound difference between "Criticisms of UK policy toward Israel have veered into anti-semitic conspiracy theories" (which your sources support) and "The claim that an Israeli lobby exists in the UK is a conspiracy theory", which is effectively what you wrote. You appear to be unable to separate that nuance, which to me shows you have gotten too close to the material you're trying to edit. Further argument here isn't going to fix that; you need to show that you can edit within the bounds of policy, outside the CTOP. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:39, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't investigated this, but presuming what Vanamonde writes is true (and I do) conflating anti-semetic conspiracy theories and Israeli lobby is a conspiracy theory is more than just a failed nuance. It is, in my mind, POVPUSHING. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:43, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So I have now examined many (but not all) of the sources presented. I do find there to be support to the idea of the Israel Lobby being called a conspiracy in the UK. I think this is most clearly seen on p.10 of Conspiracy Theories: A Critical Introduction. Not all the sources I looked at make the grade, but enough of them do that I feel more comfortable saying that we're in content, rather than conduct, territory with that particular piece. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Levivich (cc fiveby): I agree with That book does not say that the Israeli lobby in the UK is a conspiracy theory, it gives examples of conspiracy theories involving the Israeli lobby in the UK, which doesn't mean that the lobby itself is a conspiracy theory and your subsequent freemason comparison is a good one. But in the diff you then cite it says The idea of an Israel lobby in the United Kingdom has been used to raise conspire theories (emphasis added). I think you're focused on the italics part where as I think the bolded part is drawing that distinction - though the italics part would need to be reworded to avoid the problem you're seeing. I'm not sure this line should be in there at all, but all of this strikes me as with-in the bounds of a content discussion. Someone can be wrong/out of consensus on content in a contentious topic, even with regularity, and not, for me, cross the line into a conduct problem. To return to the first comment I made in this thread (below as it so happens), I AGF that a non-native English speaker can imperfectly walk the line of "There are conspiracies about the Israel Lobby in the UK" versus "The idea that there is an Israel Lobby is a conspiracy theory". I would expect, however, O.maximov to be a lot more careful about this distinction going forward. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure when/if I will have time to look into the merits of the complaint here as it seems like a lot of background reading is required. However, I know enough to say that I find the calls for CU as unconvincing as I do the call for a boomerang on BM. Assume good faith matters just as much, if not more, in contentious topics. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@O.maximov does the Israel Lobby exist? Whether or not it does what would your description of it be? Barkeep49 (talk) 17:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Givengo1

Givengo1 confirmed to be a sockpuppet at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SelfStarter2. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:29, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Givengo1

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: The Kip (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Givengo1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

ARBPIA ECR

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

User initially made these two edits to the Current Events portal:

19:24, 1 August - Changes wording/content on two Israel-Hamas war current event blurbs
19:42, 1 August - Does the same (including saying an Israeli civilian was "liquidated" rather than "killed")

I then issued the standard CTOP alert and ARBPIA welcome/ECR notification. They did not respond/acknowledge, then started editing again on the topic:

02:41 4 August - Additions to a passage regarding Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank
03:53 4 August - More content changes, multiple replacements of "Israel" with "the Israeli regime"
21:24 4 August - Comparatively minor, but replaces Arab-Israeli conflict with Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

N/A - albeit, see #1 below?

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Made aware on 1 August.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Based on similar areas of interest, POV, and especially the wording of edit summaries, I suspect this editor may be this IP, who was previously blocked in May for two weeks after similar ECR violations. I asked the user about it, but they didn't respond.
Outside of the ECR violations, the user seems to edit with a distinct POV; their edits have often seemed to downplay/euphemize Islam-related violence/controversy ("Acid attacks" to "Acid-related incidents," "Islamic dress" to "modest dress," "Islamist/ic" to "religious" or "fundamentalist,") while heavily emphasizing anti-Islamic and/or Middle Eastern violence/controversy (prior Mannheim stabbing edits regarding the far-right organizers, "conquests" to "invasions,", "hold on to" to "continue occupying," some rather blunt/POV descriptions). While I'll openly admit that, in my opinion, some of these changes aren't entirely wrong, simply changing the wording to one's POV without good reason/sourcing isn't the way to go about it. The Kip ^(contribs) 22:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bellerophon451, if that acct and the aforementioned IP are both this same guy, that means they’ve already been arb-blocked twice - ouch. The Kip ^(contribs) 18:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish, just noticed - Givengo and SelfStarter made almost the exact same edits to 2024 Mannheim stabbing, including adding the rather uncommon word “injuriously.” In light of that, it seems to be a pretty clear WP:DUCK. The Kip ^(contribs) 18:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified at time of report.

Discussion concerning Givengo1

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Givengo1

Statement by Bellerophon451

I think this user is quite obviously an alt account of blocked user SelfStarter2 (talk · contribs), based on the content of his edits and the pages edited. --Bellerophon451 (talk) 16:33, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Givengo1

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

@Givengo1: There is an extended confirmed restriction in place for this topic area. This means that, until you obtain the extended confirmed user right, you may not:

Make any edits to articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted; nor
Make edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace.

The sole exception to this is to make properly formatted edit requests on a talk page. Editors ordinarily receive the extended confirmed user right when they have contributed 500 edits and their account has been open for 30 days.

You were first informed about this restriction on 1 August at 19:56 UTC, but proceeded to make several edits that are broadly related to the relevant topic area after being informed of the restriction.

Would you please explain, in your own words, why you believe making these edits was or was not appropriate, in light of the restriction?

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current events portal editing is pretty quacky but not enough for an immediate block. I'll wait to see if they make any statement here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked and opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SelfStarter2. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Astropulse

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Astropulse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Astropulse (talk) 21:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: 7 day block on article Hammas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Astropulse

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish#appealing

Statement by Astropulse

a) this was my first possible violation of 1RR - instead of a 24hrs block, a 7 day block was placed - which i think is undue.

b) there were never a disruption to Wikipedia. After a possible minor violation of 1RR, Most of my changes still stand on the page. Some of it were improved upon.

c) i believe the offending edit i reverted itself is violation of 1RR. This is because another editor reverted several of my edits in one edit. According to WP:3RR "A series of consecutively saved reverting edits by one user, with no intervening edits by another user, counts as one revert." In this case, there were intervening edits by another user. The edit i reverted also violated WP:DRNC , WP:DOREVERT and WP:PRESERVE, also WP:ONUS

d) I was asked to revert my changes, but I refused because doing so would have introduced NPOV issues into the article. Several days have passed, and no one else has reverted my changes, as they are beneficial and have gained growing consensus on the talk page.

e) editor who accused me of 1RR violation - is not a involved editor. I have settled the differences with involved editor and everything is resolved. And hence a block at this point is undue. it is a punishment, rather than a genuine attempt to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia. This violates wiki blocking policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy

f) I'm not convinced i violated 1RR -> I removed a tag on the page [[124]] -> this was being counted as a revert. But i think it is just a edit because that tag was not needed anymore. No one re-added the tag - after i removed it. I dont know what is the problem. The only revert was this [[125]] because another editor reverted two people edits here [[126]] which itself i believe is a violation of 1RR Astropulse (talk) 21:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Red-tailed hawk first and third edit you quoted aren't reverts. these are changes to long standing lead. if you are calling it as revert, most change's on wiki will be a revert. As per WP:ONUS im entitled to make than change. second is questionable. i have good reasons to do it. No one added it back after i removed it. So there is no conflict or disagreement on that one. Astropulse (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Their appeal demonstrates that they still don't understand what a revert is, and that they believe their own view of NPOV exempts them from 1RR. Everyone believes their edit is the neutral one, which is why it is not an exemption as listed in WP:3RRNO. This lack of understanding leads me to believe we're going to be back here fairly soon. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Red-tailed hawk, first revert, second, and third.

Newyorkbrad, a warning is fine if they remedy their violation, which is how I normally handle this. When there is a refusal to remedy a blatant violation and the behavior is confined to a single areticle I generally start with a one week pblock, which you can see in the report immediately before theirs. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:47, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, I am sensitive to the position of someone who would otherwise be willing to self-revert an isolated 1RR violation, but does not want to be associated with an edit in their name that they feel would reintroduce bias or misinformation into the contentious article. That is what almost every edit war in the topic area is about. One side thinks NPOV is violated, and the other feels it is violated if the prose is changed. That is why "but I don't like what it said before I changed it" isn't an acceptable edit warring defense. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:55, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by AstroPulse

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Astropulse

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

@ScottishFinnishRadish: For posterity's sake, can you link to the diffs that violated the 1RR? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Red-tailed hawk: The offending diff and the context are given in the original enforcement thread. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that. I do see a clear violation of WP:1RR there. The user was aware that this is a contentious topics area. This looks like an extremely ordinary case, where a warning or reminder would have been sufficient had the appellant self-reverted after being asked, but the appellant refused to do so.

Restrictions like WP:1RR require editors to limit their own editing behavior, as there is no technical mechanism to enforce them directly. As such, they require an editor to acknowledge them and choose to abide by them, even if this does not generate a content outcome that they desire. If they do not choose to abide by these restrictions, such as by blowing through 1RR and also refusing to self-revert, then that justifies the use of more restrictive measures (such as partial blocks). A partial block of one week is reasonable in this circumstance (though one of 72 hours probably would have been equally so).

As such, I think that the sanction is reasonable in light of the appellant's refusal to abide by 1RR, and I would decline this appeal. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am sensitive to the position of someone who would otherwise be willing to self-revert an isolated 1RR violation, but does not want to be associated with an edit in their name that they feel would reintroduce bias or misinformation into the contentious article. If this is indeed a "first offense," I would probably have warned rather than p-blocked, and certainly would not have p-blocked for a full week. A block (of any reasonable length) from just a single article is not a severe sanction in and of itself, but it can have a stigmatizing effect and will also be invoked if this user's comes to be scrutinized again. In short, I am somewhat troubled, but I am not sure my disagreement rises to the level of !voting to overturn the sanction. Looking forward to other admins' thoughts. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also don't think I'd have p blocked in this instance. However, I think it was with-in the range of admin discretion given the facts in play here - if at the very upper end. As such I don't think the standard to repeal has been met and so I also am in favor of declining this appeal. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a shorter p-block could have done the job, but before p-blocks were rolled out a site-wide block would have been considered quite normal for a 1RR violation. This is far from the most severe block we could have handed out. And loath as I am to disagree with Newyorkbrad, I agree with SFR's assessment above; every single edit-war in this topic has participants who believe they are the ones correcting an egregious NPOV violation. That is not, in my view, reasonable grounds for leniency. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3E1I5S8B9RF7

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning 3E1I5S8B9RF7

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: 3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPIA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

WP:NOTFORUM/WP:BLP/WP:NOR, Round 1, at Talk:Gaza genocide: "If dead, would Mohammed Deif be a victim of genocide?" I collapsed and archived that thread.

Round 2: "Should Hamas fighters be included in the genocide death count?" I also collapsed and archived that thread, posted a template warning and alert on the user talk page, and started a new thread about the same general topic (what is the genocide death toll according to RS), with sources, without the FORUM/BLP/NOR violations.

Round 3, in the thread I started: 1, 2; the second one is after the CTOP awareness alert.

Across all 3 rounds, they brought exactly one source (in Round 2), and that source does not contain the words "Deif" or "genocide". Otherwise, no sources. 11 out of 12 of their most-recent (Aug 3-7) contribs are the above FORUM/BLP/NOR violations.

In sum, 3E1 is persistently using this article talk page to discuss whether certain individuals/groups are innocent enough to be considered victims of genocide, without any real engagement with RS. This violates our FORUM/BLP/NOR policies.

Note that there has recently been an increase in press coverage of this article (see the press template at the top of the article talk page for links), and with it an increase in disruption, and the talk page is currently ECP'd as a result. Levivich (talk) 18:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any: No blocks or CTLOG entries, some warnings on the UTP

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics): Special:Diff/1239002016

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

@SFR/Van: Yes, it's the only one after the ARBPIA alert. There were previous alerts in other topic areas (see their UTP); I don't know if that counts as awareness under the new rules or not. I don't see this as "the first after a CTOP alert" so much as "the 11th in a row this week." The CTOP awareness alert is the reason this is at AE instead of ANI, but otherwise it's not terribly relevant in my view. CTOP awareness is a prerequisite for CTOP sanctions, but I don't think any CTOP sanctions are necessarily merited here. This doesn't rise to the level of a TBAN or anything that serious in my view; though disruptive, it's limited to one article, and I think this is the first complaint against an established editor. While they're not listening to me, they'll probably listen to admins. Levivich (talk) 15:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find 3E1's comment here Levivich's argument is that I need to provide sources that only civilians are victims of genocide; my argument is that sources currently only mention a total death toll of the Israel-Hamas War, but not a death toll of Gaza genocide in itself and xDanielx's comment here Levivich's view is that the casualty figure is properly sourced, but this isn't entirely clear ... the available sources don't explicitly give a casualty figure for Gaza genocide to be very puzzling, considering Talk:Gaza genocide#Death toll, the thread I started, begins with The sources used for the death toll in the article aren't all specifically about the Gaza genocide ... and ends with Here are some sources ... followed by quotes from 5 sources that give a death toll of the Gaza genocide itself. They're both raising the same talking point, but the entire purpose of the thread I started is to address that exact point. I don't understand how two editors both missed this? Levivich (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: Special:Diff/1239171553

Discussion concerning 3E1I5S8B9RF7

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by 3E1I5S8B9RF7

My comments weren't a forum, they were relevant questions to the controversial decision in the article to include all Hamas militants, regarded as a terrorist organization by several countries, as victims of genocide, regardless if they fell as armed fighters in a battle. I can understand if this was narrowed down to only civilian fatalities, but the current article warrants a detailed explanation. I just wanted to hear a rational explanation if this can be accepted and hear other users' thoughts. My "inconvenient" question still stands unanswered; can terrorists be considered victims of genocide?--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 15:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So you do agree that my original question is reasonable here? How would you anwser this question then?

The purpose of the talk page is to discuss contentious issues of an article. If users cannot pose questions revealing contradictions of some articles, then Wikipedia should abolish talk pages. Levivich's argument is that I need to provide sources that only civilians are victims of genocide; my argument is that sources currently only mention a total death toll of the Israel-Hamas War, but not a death toll of Gaza genocide in itself, a term which is not universally accepted yet.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 16:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Logged warning for what, exactly? This can and should be used to improve the article by pointing out the glaring contradiction (and fallacy) in it. Are Hamas militants who perpetrated the Re'im music festival massacre, and who were later killed for it, victims of genocide? Are terrorists victims of a genocide? My crime is that I pose this question. And I think it should be posed for clarification. Feel free to answer it, or if this question is forbidden, then just say it.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 18:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

I get that the reported editor has a beef with the article, having also initiated MR on it. That's not a license to forum the talk page, repeatedly refusing to take the hint. Think this editor should maybe stay away from the page for a while. Selfstudier (talk) 18:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@XDanielx: I'm glad that you mentioned BM intervention in the middle of this contretemps, two days before the diff you have posted, here, any idea what on earth was the purpose of adding {{npov|Is Mohammed Deif a victim of genocide?}} other than to encourage the reported party in their talk page bludgeoning? How on earth is that a "content dispute"? Deif was not even mentioned in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 15:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

.@3E1I5S8B9RF7: See here. The simplest answer to your (and BM) pointy question. If the killings are because of who they are, rather than because of what they did, then they may be victims. That question will be answered in due course by the court. Selfstudier (talk) 11:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by xDanielx

This isn't WP:NOTFORUM territory at all, since 3E1I5S8B9RF7 was raising concerns about content in an effort to improve it. Levivich closing the discussions as such seems inappropriate. It's also not WP:OR to question whether sources are being interpreted or summarized correctly. One doesn't need new sources to question the application of the current ones. While WP:BLP applies to all namespaces, in practice its sourcing requirements are not enforced to the letter outside of article space.

Levivich's view is that the casualty figure is properly sourced (edit: or rather that proper sources exist and can be added), but this isn't entirely clear. BilledMammal argued that it itself involves OR, since the available sources don't explicitly give a casualty figure for Gaza genocide. Giving a casualty figure for the war, and then a separate statement that a genocide is occurring, is not the same thing; one can believe that a genocide is occurring without sharing the view that combatant deaths are part of that genocide.

This seems like a normal content dispute, with no legitimate policy-based reason for closing the discussions or bringing it to AE. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 14:20, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: you provided five sources, but none of them actually provide a count of genocide victims, as BilledMammal pointed out on the talk page. A statement that X people were killed in a war, and a separate statement that a genocide is occurring, does not amount to a statement that X people were victims of a genocide. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 01:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sean.hoyland: your argument seems to be that WP:NOR was violated, not WP:NOTFORUM. "Patently false" is not an argument, and it's hard to see how flagging a perceived issue in an article could be NOTFORUM territory.

Regarding NOR, the policy does not apply to talk pages. At worst one could say that 3E1I5S8B9RF7 was suggesting a change which would have been OR had it been enacted. A NOR violation would require actually enacting the change.

It also seem impossible to keep any count of genocide victims without bending NOR, since we don't have any reliable sources providing an explicit count of genocide victims. If we're going to enforce NOR to the letter here, we'll have to remove the victim count. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 01:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

"This isn't WP:NOTFORUM territory at all"...patently false and not helpful at all in my view. Rewarding easily avoided WP:TALKNO violations is counterproductive in PIA and has a cost. Editors who try to convince people that they have figured out how Wikipedia should count victims of an alleged genocide based on a personal decision procedure that makes sense to them should not be taken seriously. It's bordering on a competence issue. Buried inside 3E1I5S8B9RF7's unhelpful musings and irrelevant personal opinions there is a simple and reasonable point about statistics that could easily have been expressed by "pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies", the key word there being policies. No need to start fires to get attention. I fully support Levivich's entirely sensible actions. I'm sure 3E1I5S8B9RF7 is a perfectly decent editor, but no one needs to hear about how they think victim counting should work. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

XDanielx,

I think it's possible to understand quite a lot of the things that happen in PIA, the rule breaking, the defense of rule breaking etc., if you assume that people sometimes use an approach that can be characterized as 'the ends justify the means', an after the fact rationalization of non-compliance. But the ends don't justify the means. There's just a set of policies and guidelines that everyone has to follow.
In this case, it seems crystal clear (to me at least) that the editor made statements that are inconsistent with talk page guidelines. There are numerous examples in that discussion where they try to get editors to discuss who can be counted as a victim and who can't etc. In general, in Wikipedia, I don't think this really matters much, but in PIA, I think it matters because there are very few knobs we can turn to try to improve the dynamics of the topic area. Strictly enforcing compliance in discussions is one of them.
Let's assume everyone in that discussion agreed with the editor's proposed counting method. If you ask, 'Is that consensus consistent with policy?', the answer is no. So, that already tells me that, aside from being a misuse of talk pages, it is a pointless waste of everyone's time.
To be honest, I don't really understand why so many editors behave this way, treat themselves as RS, when the alternative, just following sources and the rules, liberates editors from having to answer, or even think about, questions like 'is this a massacre?', 'is this a genocide?', 'why doesn't genocide law distinguish between combatants and non-combatants?' etc. My wife and I often argue over whether a thing is color A or color B. This happens, in part, because the mappings from wavelengths to tokens are interestingly inconsistent across languages. This is fun and all, but these kinds of discussions/disagreements shouldn't happen in PIA because we are supposed to just reflect reliable sources rather than elevate ourselves to RS-level and argue our theory of the case. We all know this. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BilledMammal

It feels a little unfair to focus on 3E1I5S8B9RF7 when this is a problem on both sides.

The editors advocating that we count every casualty as a victim of genocide are doing the same thing that 3E1I5S8B9RF7 is, by trying to convince people that they have figured out how Wikipedia should count victims of an alleged genocide based on a personal decision procedure that makes sense to them - the sources presented in support of that claim don't say that X many people are victims, only that X many people have died in the war. BilledMammal (talk) 22:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Selfstudier:, when used that way the template links to the talk page section, which at the time was titled "Is Mohammed Deif a victim of genocide?". That section was soon after closed and archived by an involved editor, which is why the link stopped working. BilledMammal (talk) 22:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning 3E1I5S8B9RF7

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Levivich, so this is the sole diff from after they were given a CTOP alert? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same question from me: is there evidence of CTOP awareness earlier? The single edit SFR notes is a bit of a NOTFORUM violation, but not at a level where I would consider any action for it alone. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm okay with a logged warning. 3E1I5S8B9RF7, if you have concerns about the text, please raise them without any number of straw men and rhetorical questions. This cannot reasonably be construed as an attempt to improve the article. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Please keep your comments to your own section.) A logged warning for violating WP:NOTFORUM, and for treating Wikipedia as a battleground. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given Levivich's comment I would be in favor of a logged warning. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:45, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bluethricecreamman

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Bluethricecreamman

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:42, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Bluethricecreamman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Violating WP:1RR and edit warring at Genocide of indigenous peoples by repeatedly reinstating the same disputed content:

17:49, 24 June 2024
20:28, 5 August 2024
13:21, 6 August 2024 (self-reverted 13:51, 6 August 2024 following talk page request)
12:44, 7 August 2024

They refused to self-revert, saying that because they self-reverted 13:21, 6 August 2024 they were free to re-implement the edit. However, my understanding is that self-reverting, particularly when done only after the self-revert is requested, doesn't permit editors to ignore the most recent revert when re-implementing the edit and doing so comes across as WP:GAMING.

It is relevant that an RfC was held on including this content, which closed as "no consensus". As the content was only in the article for six weeks, insufficient to establish it as the status quo, this means it should be excluded until a consensus is found to include it and editors should not be reinstating it even when done without edit warring or 1RR violations.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:29, 19 January 2024 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

23:42, 8 August 2024

Discussion concerning Bluethricecreamman

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Bluethricecreamman

a) I've explained revert then self revert doesn't count towards the counter, but BilledMammal has been harrassing me and others in talkpage to self revert. Also like... wouldn't the applicable place for this report be the edit war noticeboard? WP:AN/EW. Bluethricecreamman (talk)
Seen some folks argue that no consensus means removal. WP:NOCONSENSUS states specifically "When discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles end without consensus, the common result is to retain the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." Obviously, after that May RFC fails, we should probably keep the version of the article that had been in place since March with the included paragraph. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ABHammad

I also noticed these problematic diffs, which seem to be part of a broader recent trend where disputed content is repeatedly inserted through edit warring in ARBPIA, despite being reverted multiple times. When asked to stop and wait for consensus, there are editors who reintroduce the disputed content anyway and insist that discussions should focus on whether the new content should be removed, rather than if it should be added in the first place. In some cases, they claim consensus exists, even when reverts indicate otherwise. Here are a few examples for these re-adds,leading to controversial content now appearing in the article:

Genocide of indigenous peoples: beside Bluethericecreamman, the disputed content was also restored by others following the RFC closure as no consensus: [127], [128].
Palestinians, where a new description as native/indigenous was introduced through edit warring: [129] [130] [131]
Israeli allegations against UNRWA, where a scope change in all but name was introduced through edit warring, [132], [133], while a RM to move to "UNRWA and Israel" is now ongoing.
Similar dynamics can be found also at Zionism. This is how its primary description as a "movement that ... aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a land outside of Europe." was introduced, despite many reverts and substantial talk disagreement.

This seems why this may be part of the reason why Wikipedia is not pereceived as trustworthy anymore by some outside media when it comes to ARBPIA. ABHammad (talk) 08:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Left guide

@Bluethricecreamman: No, that noticeboard is only for normal edit-warring subject to 3RR in non-contentious topics. For edit-warring in designated contentious topics with stricter revert rules, this is the appropriate venue. Left guide (talk) 10:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

@BilledMammal: 6 weeks? Where's that from? (also see Wikipedia_talk:Consensus#WP:NOCONSENSUS where myself and others aren't in agreement with your rather simplistic take on this matter). As for who started it, that would have been yourself on 5 August, a month and a half (!) after the RFc closure on 25 June? Selfstudier (talk) 18:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Bluethricecreamman

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

A self revert does not reset the revert counter, in my opinion. Beyond that @Bluethricecreamman: I suggest you re-read the introduction to to contentious topics given your comments as from what I read here you to need edit carefully and constructively (emphasis in the original). In contentious topics Wikipedia’s norms and policies are more strictly enforced and so this self-evert resets your ability to do other reverts. In general your response here - including the suggestion it's the wrong forum which it's not - indicates you don't understand what it means to be a contentious topic and don't understand that norms and policies being more strictly enforced are exactly about this sort of thing. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 1,513: / Line 1,513: @@
 ====Statement by Selfstudier====
-{{Re|Billedmammal}} 6 weeks? Where's that from? (also see [[Wikipedia_talk:Consensus#WP:NOCONSENSUS]] where myself and others aren't in agreement with your rather simplistic take on this matter). As for who started it, that would have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples&diff=1238797877&oldid=1238786242 yourself] on 5 August, a month and a half (!) after [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#RFC:_Palestinian_genocide_accusations the RFc closure on 25 June]? [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 18:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
+{{Re|BilledMammal}} 6 weeks? Where's that from? (also see [[Wikipedia_talk:Consensus#WP:NOCONSENSUS]] where myself and others aren't in agreement with your rather simplistic take on this matter). As for who started it, that would have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples&diff=1238797877&oldid=1238786242 yourself] on 5 August, a month and a half (!) after [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#RFC:_Palestinian_genocide_accusations the RFc closure on 25 June]? [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 18:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
 ===Result concerning Bluethricecreamman===

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