Talk:Avaris

Population figures

It is difficult and sometimes even impossible to rank the world´s top five largest cities in ancient times. The Chandler list [1] is based on some very general assumptions.--JFK 12:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It is believed that Avaris was the largest city in the world from 1670 to 1557 BC.[2]

Removed until verified. --JFK 11:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Some of the Egyptian nomes population records have survived in the form of tax records and the distributions of fields. In the 18th Dynasty of Egypt the average size of the population for a nome might have been about 23,810 people and for a town about 566 people not counting women and children I used to have an old published thesis paper on this but have long since misplaced it. Cities like Thebes, Memphis, Tanis, the nome capitals, and Avaris might have had populations that approached 50% of the total for the whole nome. Rktect 17:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Map needed

Where was this in Egypt? – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 19:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You can google map Avaris as a large field in the eastern delta between Faqus and Didamun —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rktect (talk • contribs) 17:29, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

Pronunciation

As Pi-Ramesses does not have it's own page it might be appropriate to include it's pronunciation here considering how it is pronounced doesn't even resemble how it looks like it should be. I have no idea how to do IPA so could someone else do it? It is pronounced Peer-a-mess. Wayne (talk) 04:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

According to whom? Cush (talk) 07:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Although the original Egyptian pronunciation is unknown it's the pronunciation used by Egyptologists. I've heard it used by many including Bietak and have never heard any other pronunciation. If I remember correctly the heiroglyph for Pi-Ramesses is Pr-ra-ms-s which could explain why this pronunciation is used. Wayne (talk) 16:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Peer-a-mess may well be the American chewing gum version of the name, but I doubt that it is any kind of proper pronunciation. · CUSH · 15:50, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Anachronistic

Philistia did not exist as a province until the reign of Rameses III, it was Canaan, not PHilistia. Canaan however was not much of a problem until after the Battle of Kadesh, when there was a brief revolt forcibly put down. John D. Croft (talk) 09:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Hyksos capital

Shouldn't there be a section about Avaris being the Hyksos capital and their primary military stronghold? Cush (talk) 14:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Pi-Ramesses and other Obnoxiousities

No one's been listening; I have numerous sources placing Pi-Ramesses in Qantir, not Avaris (See An Introduction to The Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, Kathryn A. Bard, published 2009 by Blackwell Publishing). This distinction isn't even noted, not to mention how misleading it is to linking this to the series of Egyptian capitals. I'm a new user, someone help instead of just being crude and dismissive because I have no "wiki cred".Karooney (talk) 06:16, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

What's your problem exactly? Pi-Ramesse's extent includes Avaris (it's only 3 km apart), which in fact became the southern quarter of Pi-Ramesses. There is no need to make an artificial distinction that was not made even by the ancients. · CUSH · 11:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Now that my initial early-hour frustration is over, my problem that Avaris is included within the "Ancient Egyptian Capitals" list when Pi-Ramesses actually encompassed much more, and is a separate archaeological entity than Avaris. Although expanding articles is probably tough, I know that this was misleading while I was writing a large term paper. Truly, Pi-Ramesses should not redirect to Avaris although it might have overlapping boundaries with the site. This article makes it seem like they were one and the same place, even when both the stables and the palace seem to be at Qantir. Karooney (talk) 02:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm listening, just haven't had a chance to work on this. An editor made a couple of massive changes with no edit summary and this ended up with terrible formatting (besides the lack of discussion or the fact that material was copied from one article to another with no attribution to the old article in the edit summary, and thus was copyright violation, each editor's edits need to be traceable). Give me a chance, I'll work on this today, ok? Breakfast, etc. first. Dougweller (talk) 06:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Wonderful! I'm sorry, your morning is my 3 AM. If you need more sources, let me know. I'd edit it myself, but I can barely figure out how to format my own user page. Oh, and if you have Bard, it's p215.Karooney (talk) 07:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Cush, are you really suggesting that we should have a redirect from Qantir to Avaris? Take a look at [3]. An article on Pi-Ramesses should have a discussion on the location debate, and I don't see that as proper within the Avaris article. Dougweller (talk) 11:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course we should have a redirect from Qantir to Avaris. Avaris covers the whole excavation area. This is like a question about including the Eiffel Tower in an article about Paris although it is a few kilometers from the city center. Pi-Ramesses was first built as a palace and temple extension of Avaris and then the settlement grew around the palace and the temples so that Avaris became a quarter of Pi-Ramesses (the old city so-to-say).

So carrying on with the Eifel Tower analogy, although we obviously should mention Qantir and Pi-Ramesses in this article, we should have a separate article for Pi-Ramesses, just as we have one for the EIffel Tower, right? I haven't looked into this much yet, what's your source for it being built first as an extension of Avaris? Or do you not actually mean extending Avaris (ie contiguous), but built outside of Avaris? Thanks Dougweller (talk) 16:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

right|thumb|240px (P.S., this map is awesome-thanks for posting) Karooney (talk) 02:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, on neighboring islands and peninsulas. Avaris had always been scattered over a large area that was dissected by a multitude of arms and bayous of the Nile (the green parts in the map overlay were flooded during the inundation season). Pi-Ramesses was erected in the angle between two branches of the Nile, but the existing infrastructure of Avaris on the southern river bank was still used (especially the remains of the huge Hyksos fortress, cf. the small brighter inset in the map) and its major Seth temple extended (if not even replaced by a larger building). · CUSH · 18:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. This] describes them as adjoining sites. Ian shaws uses the word 'adjacent'. Bard's encyclopedia says "The area of ancient Pi-Ramesses, stretching over more than 30km2 within the region of Qantir/Tell ed-Dab’a" and refers to "Avaris/Tell ed-Dab’a". Dougweller (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

It is somewhat difficult to actually define the limits of Pi-Ramesse as such. This was not a walled fortress as Avaris had been in the Hyksos period, but a rather open settlement that was constantly surrounded by tent camps. After all, this and Tjafanet (Tahpanhes, Daphnae, Baal Zephon 30.860708°N 32.171475°E / 30.860708; 32.171475 (Tjafanet (Tahpanhes, Daphnae, Baal Zephon))) were the principal military bases used to control the Sinai and Canaan (and to maintain the safe passage along the via maris). · CUSH · 20:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I definitely agree that Pi-Ramesses had (as most archaeological sites do) indefinite borders. And the term Avaris, as you have mentioned, is both referencing a walled fortress and a larger scattered Tell el-Daba area. That being said, my "problem" is that Pi-Ramesses from the "Capitals of Egypt" page redirects to Avaris, and conflates it with the Hyksos empire capital-a walled, defined fortress. I do not feel the geographical proximity of the two negates the need for two separate pages. As a student and a reader, this is confusing. Karooney (talk) 02:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

No reason was given for the redirect, and I think some good arguments have been made for removing it. Cush, I hope you are ok with this. It will keep irrelevant stuff out of the Avaris article and give us a cleaner set of articles. Dougweller (talk) 07:33, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course I am not ok with this. But my opinion is not necessarily relevant here. · CUSH · 11:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. Karooney (talk) 02:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Biblical Ramses?

I have a concern with this section being in the article on Avaris. If we are agreeing that The biblical Raamses is associated with Pi-Ramesses, and thus a period of time after Avaris and Hyksos rule, than logically it has no place in an article dealing with Avaris. I understand that Pi-Ramesses has been redirected to this article, however it seems that this association has opened up the door for sections of this article that are further and further away from the actual subject matter. I agree with Karooney in suggesting a separate page for Pi-Ramesses, which would also include the section on "Biblical Ramses". HoraceBronte (talk) 02:52, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

In the Bible "Raamses" is used indiscriminately for Avaris and Pi-Ramesse in any period. So what is your point, really?

And btw, the the Hyksos period does not necessarily preceed the Exodus. · CUSH · 11:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

If the understanding is that Ramses was in power during the exodus, as the name of the city Raamses might suggest, than it can be assumed that the period of time surrounding Exodus must at least precede the reign of Seti I if not Ramses I. Avaris is not mentioned in the Bible, nor is Hut-Waret or any linguistic variation. Raamses, however, has a possible association with both Ramses and Pi-Ramesses. Furthermore, whether or not my conclusions are invalid in your eyes, Cush, the section on "Biblical Ramses" itself makes no reference to Avaris, only to Pi-Ramesses, and so in its current state has no place in an article which is entitled "Avaris". HoraceBronte (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

The name Ramses is used even when Joseph brought his folks to Egypt (Genesis 47:11), over 200 years before the Exodus. Ramses does in fact refer to Avaris, simply because no king of the name Ramesses had reigned in or before the time of Joseph (in any chronology). The use of the name is anachronistic.

The Exodus took place at the end of the 13th Dynasty anyways, so no Ramesses yet for a very looong time. · CUSH · 21:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I've restored the Pi-Ramesses article which still needs work but haven't yet worked on this one. I'm off to bed but will remove the biblical section now. Dougweller (talk) 21:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Karooney (talk) 02:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)