Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

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The 10 most-viewed, worst-quality articles according to this Wikiproject

c 65 Army of Thieves 322,737 10,410 Stub Unknown

• 129 Dark Side of the Ring 228,155 7,359 Stub Unknown
• 405 Madam Chief Minister 125,341 4,043 Stub Unknown
• 488 One (2021 film) 116,797 3,767 Stub Unknown
• 530 Justice Society: World War II 113,115 3,648 Stub Unknown
• 575 I Am All Girls 108,711 3,506 Stub Unknown
• 628 Spirit Untamed 104,171 3,360 Stub Unknown
• 742 The Last Letter from Your Lover 94,778 3,057 Stub Unknown
• 845 Greater (film) 88,762 2,863 Stub Unknown
• 2 Radhe (2021 film) 2,038,627 65,762 Start Unknown

Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Popular pages--Coin945 (talk)

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

If you answered yes or no to that, you may be interested in this page move discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Helen (film, 2008)

Please can someone move Helen (film, 2008) to its best title? I think it may be Helen (2009 Irish film), and we may need to rename Helen (2009 film) too, but this looks like a job for a naming expert. Thanks, Certes (talk) 12:09, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Moved to Helen (2008 film). The film premiered in 2008, not 2009. Nardog (talk) 12:40, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Queerbaiting examples list

Input would be useful at Talk:Queerbaiting#Examples section lacks credibility, as would anyone willing to edit the queerbaiting article itself and excise the WP:UNDUE. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:32, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

The Light Bulb Conspiracy

The Article The Light Bulb Conspiracy received a "More citations needed" box.

It has 13 refereces for 4.8 kB text - that's about the same ratio as found for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (film). On top of that, the English version of The Light Bulb Conspiracy has the most references of all parallel articles in other languages. My question where references are missing was not answered. Please make this request concrete. I'd like to remove the box. Thanks! Bikkit ! (talk) 09:32, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

That list of alternate titles should really be cited or removed (BFI is often a good source for international titles) but aside from that it seems fine, if a little prose-light. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ^ˣ 09:50, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Will be done! Bikkit ! (talk) 16:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Two page moves

Hi. You may be interested in these move discussions:

• Ghostbusters (2016)
• Matrix Resurrections

Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Question regarding inclusion of a film in a filmography table

There's a film "based on a idea" by Slavoj Žižek that has been included in his filmography section. He doesn't have any active role in the film, his only contribution is inspiring the writer. Is there then any justification to keep that entry? To my understanding, if he doesn't participate in any tangible way then it doesn't count. I already deleted it once and was reverted so I don't wanna engage in a edit war without making sure I'm right. - Ïvana (talk) 15:35, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

If he's not officially credited with anything, then it shouldn't be in his filmography.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 20:14, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

He is credited. It says on the website "Based on an idea by Slavoj Zizek" The film was made in collaboration with him and is based on one of his published jokes. I think people coming to the Zizek Wikipedia page would definitely be interested to see such a film in the filmography. I don't really understand why you are so keen to remove it?

One of the problems I can see is that the filmography table only lists a title. This implies that he is either an actor, or a writer/director. If he has different roles in these things, then a better table needs to be used.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:19, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

@Andy Lambert 18: It has been pointed out that the table may need to be modified, so stop reverting the article while we sort that out. Also I just saw that you're the writer and director, so doesn't this fall under WP:CONFLICT and/or WP:PROMO?

@Bignole: do you think adding a column for notes + row stating that it is based on an idea by him is enough? My original question was regarding the validity of the inclusion because he is not credited with any concrete role. - Ïvana (talk) 17:47, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Ivana, it's probably two-fold. There probably needs to be a bigger table that covers what his roles on those films actually are. See Stephen King#Filmography as an example. I'm not saying it's perfect (e.g., Carrie needs an explanation as to what his role is, otherwise it should be removed or in the notes say "based on his work"). So, if you know what his roles are in each of those films you can see if there is a pattern (e.g., a specific actor column or writer column) or if it's all over the plan and you just need a single column with a brief description of his role. As for this film in question, you just need a reliable source for the credit. Being "based on an idea" isn't an official credit, even if they are giving him that credit. That would be like crediting Michael Jackson for a film because someone listened to a song of his and it inspired a short film. Nice to give recognition, but it isn't an officially recognize credit by any means. Again, it comes down to context and what is the rest of the table including.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:35, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Ivana & Bignole Thanks for your response. Noted that the table needs to be modified. Re: conflict of interest, I didn’t consider such a minor addition to fall under that definition, but you know the rules better than me. I merely wanted to add what I saw as a legitimate entry into Žižek’s impressive filmography. I genuinely feel that readers of Žižek’s Wikipedia page would be curious about such a thing and that these kind of details are what make Wikipedia so interesting. As for being “based on an idea” being like making a film “inspired” by a Michael Jackson song, I personally don’t think that is the same at all. The film in question, “Turn On” is based very closely on this piece by Žižek from his book “Zizek's Jokes: (Did You Hear the One about Hegel and Negation?)” https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FlT5DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=vibrator+joke+zizek&source=bl&ots=M5ZMBA15Yi&sig=ACfU3U2mn4J4jQ2ILVPMBjWJocvz2D1tzg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDv8yQxtPyAhXvQEEAHc3IAnwQ6AF6BAgoEAM#v=onepage&q=vibrator%20joke%20zizek&f=false Permission had to be obtained from Žižek himself who gave the film his blessing. Perhaps the word “idea” is the thing causing concern, and maybe it would have been better to say that “Turn On” is in fact based on a published piece of writing. But then again, Apocalypse Now is listed on the Heart of Darkness Wikipedia page as being based on Conrad’s book, despite having no credit in the film! ;-) Žižek has a lot of fans many of whom have an insatiable desire to know everything about him in a completist way, and including films based on his work as well as the films he appears in would seem appropriate. Hope you guys agree. cheers, Andy

"Taiwan" or "Republic of China (Taiwan)"?

Earlier this month, I created an article for the 2021 Taiwanese horror film The Sadness. Recently, User:Kylinki edited the country parameter of its infobox, changing "Taiwan" to "Republic of China (Taiwan)". I'm neither well-versed in the history nor the politics of the region, but considering that arguments over "'Taiwan' vs 'Republic of China'" are mentioned in one of the headers over on Talk:Taiwan, I imagine this is somewhat of a contentious subject. I undid Kylinki's edit, partly because I've never seen Taiwan referred to as "Republic of China (Taiwan)" in the infobox of an article about a Taiwanese film, but mostly because the article for Taiwan itself is simply called Taiwan, not Republic of China (Taiwan). Kylinki then restored their edit, which is why I've decided to bring up the matter here. Thoughts? —Matthew - (talk) 01:21, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

While I'm sure there's probably some policy on the matter here somewhere, my first inclination would be to go with how we title the article. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ^ˣ 12:29, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Grapple. MOS:CHINESE isn't a great help, but the country and the Wiki project are both at "Taiwan" and not the "Republic of China". FWIW, I've always placed "Taiwan" as the country in the infobox for any Taiwanese film articles I've created. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 12:39, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Definitely Taiwan per Lugnuts and Grapple. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:19, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

"Taiwan" is the correct name per above as well as per WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:NATURALDIS. — Starforce¹³ 15:08, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Science SARU#Requested move 15 August 2021

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Science SARU#Requested move 15 August 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 02:33, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Rotten Tomatoes info editing bot

I've created a bot that edits Rotten Tomatoes prose on Wikipedia. I've submitted a Bot Approval Request here, but it needs discussion from the film community. Let me try to describe in detail what the bot does.

We use an example from Titanic (1997 film), where we have the following wikitext:

On [[review aggregator]] website [[Rotten Tomatoes]], the film has an approval rating of 89% based on 193 reviews, with an [[Weighted mean|average rating]] of 8/10. The site's critical consensus reads, "A mostly unqualified triumph for James Cameron, who offers a dizzying blend of spectacular visuals and old-fashioned melodrama."<ref name="www.rottentomatoes.com"/>

The bot updates the percentage score, the review count, and the average rating. In particular, the average rating of 8 would be changed to 8.00 since that is how it is displayed on Rotten Tomatoes, and it indicates that the average score of a film is in fact calculated to two decimal places. This numeric precision modification was brought up in the BRFA as potentially being contentious.

The bot also removes the wikilink to weighted mean, leaving just "average rating". I don't believe Rotten Tomatoes uses a weighted mean, and I believe the reason this wikilink is so common in Rotten Tomatoes prose is because of redirects which have since been deleted. It might also be because Metacritic does explicitly use a weighted average.

If there is prose like "As of June 2020", whether using the template {{As of}} or not, the bot updates the date and uses the template {{As of}}. It includes the day if the original prose includes the day, and keeps US date format if the original uses that format.

If the critical consensus is missing, the bot would also add a sentence of the form The site's critical consensus reads, "blah blah blah.".

If the review count or average rating is missing, the bot performs a complete rewrite of the prose since it cannot safely integrate the missing info. Currently the complete rewrite is of the form, On Rotten Tomatoes, TITLE holds an approval rating of 80% based on 80 reviews, with an average rating of 8.88/10. This is obviously another point of contention. My understanding is that no single format will please everyone, and there are a huge variety of formats in use. If this bot behavior is too contentious, the bot can simply avoid these situations by not adding the missing info and always keeping the original prose format. (A ridiculous option would be to have it randomly use a variety of formats.)

Finally, the bot always uses the template {{Cite Rotten Tomatoes}}. This is simply for convenience. It was brought up in the BRFA that such a change in reference may cause problems, but my understanding is that {{Cite Rotten Tomatoes}} is just a shorter version of {{Cite Web}} specifically for Rotten Tomatoes. (Note that Cite Rotten Tomatoes was considered for deletion but kept.) The bot will keep archive info in the citation if it is already present. See a small discussion about archiving here.

The bot will keep ref names, and keeps list-defined references as well, only updating the definition. An edit is not made if only the reference is changed.

(Other minor changes include always using '%' instead of 'percent', and always using '/10' instead of 'out of 10'. Again, this kind of behavior can be removed if too contentious.)

In summary, can some version of this Rotten Tomatoes bot meet the approval of the community? If yes, I believe the major point of discussion is how conservative the bot has to be with its modifications, as described above. Winston (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

In theory, yes, this sounds promising. As long as the bot is just changing the data points and not the actual wording used in the construction of the data as that is always seemingly a contentious topic between editors who all have a preference on wording. I do have some points of issue with the test edits, which I'll add to the bot request. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:12, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I like this except for the cite template. Even though it wasn't deleted, there are still faults as soon as RT changes their urls (with hyphens and dates, it's surprisingly common even for uncommon film titles, with cite RT format meaning redirects aren't shown) and doesn't archive well. Cite web perfectly suffices and doesn't have those problems, I really don't see the point of cite RT, and as stated, it can introduce inconsistent ref style which is never ideal. Kingsif (talk) 20:26, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

This is pointless busywork that will clog my watchlist. I oppose any bot job like this. If no human deems it important enough to change "44% approval rating and 5.56/10" to "43% approval rating and 5.27/10", it should just stay at the previous value. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:19, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I admit it's not the most important editing work, but I think there are a lot of bot edits that in isolation seem unimportant, yet still have been made. Also, there are definitely humans making edits like the example you gave. I myself I have made those kinds of edits before, and if you think of a film off the top of your head and go to that film's article, chances are you will find an edit like the example you gave. One way you can check this is to go to the revision history, pick an old version (maybe about a year old) to compare, and scroll down to the Rotten Tomatoes part. Winston (talk) 06:18, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

If the data was concentrated in a template (or templates) and the articles were simply transcluding them, it wouldn't clog your watchlist. And that's the way I, too, would want it to be if it was put in practice. Nardog (talk) 07:28, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

The template {{Rotten Tomatoes prose}} exists, but is not widely used and runs into the contentious issue of (uniform) wording. Winston (talk) 07:57, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't want that either. What I'm thinking of is a template that automatically pulls the percentage, average rating, or number of reviews (or the respective "as of" date) from centralized data that's updated by a bot.

Come to think of it, this would be a perfect project for Wikidata. Perhaps you should request a bot operation there, although you may have to get property proposals first. Once this gets running, we can create a template that pulls the data from Wikidata here, and we would be freed from having to update the scores on this project. Nardog (talk) 10:51, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Wait just to clarify, this is a separate idea you are proposing (basically an automated version of {{Rotten Tomatoes prose}}), and not a replacement for the current bot idea of updating Rotten Tomatoes info right? Winston (talk) 12:03, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I must confess I missed that you had already written a bot and were seeking approval. As for this specific bot task I completely agree with NinjaRobotPirate. Bots (re)writing prose sentences is almost never a good idea. I would particularly advise against automatically adding critical consensuses as they are not always so germane or useful. Look at the one for Nine Lives to see what I mean (although the article does currently include it—I don't think it should). (I've always thought links to and mentions of "weighted average" need to be removed, but that seems a task more suited for AWB as simply removing the links may not be enough.)

If anything of this sort was to be done on this wiki locally, dump the data in a module and let templates transclude it. As in As of {{RT data|movie_title|type=date}}, the film holds an approval rating of {{RT data|movie_title|type=score}} based on {{RT average|movie_title|type=count}} reviews, with an average rating of {{RT data|movie_title|type=average}} turns into "As of August 2021, the film holds an approval rating of 88% based on 49 reviews, with an average rating of 7.10/10", with the possibility of omitting the first parameter if it's already attached on Wikidata.

But at that point it would be far more beneficial if the bot just put the data on Wikidata, which would allow for dynamic use of the data (e.g. on lists) and on other projects. Nardog (talk) 12:38, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I like your Wikidata idea, and I will probably look into it (I'm still pretty new to anything beyond English Wikipedia's mainspace). My current bot could be "evolved" to implement your idea.

For now, I'm making the current bot much more conservative. In particular, it will not add missing review counts or averages (and so will not rewrite sentences), it only updates/adds access dates for citations, and when a citation is missing a new citation will use the {{Cite web}} template instead of {{Cite Rotten Tomatoes}}. The precision of the originally present average rating is also preserved.

I'd like to get this more conservative version of the current bot approved.

As for the "weighted average" issue, the bot indeed doesn't just remove the links (including the recently deleted redirects); it removes all mention of "weighted" which I think is what you agree with. Regarding your view of the critical consensus, I agree that sometimes the critical consensus is more humorous than informative, especially for poorly received movies, but in these instances it is harmless to include if not already included. I feel the consensus is usually useful, and from what I've seen it is almost always included here. Winston (talk) 13:53, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Since it's been brought up, for the record, I don't remember anyone liking the RT prose template when it was brought up and still think it's a horrible editing practice. Leave automated text for hatnotes and maintenance. So please do nothing more with it. Kingsif (talk) 01:57, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:List of films featuring prisons#Requested move 20 August 2021

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:List of films featuring prisons#Requested move 20 August 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:13, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Large IP range vandalizing with categories

Hi, please take a look at Special:Contributions/2603:7000:1A00::/45, who is continuously vandalizing film articles by miscategorizing and adding other false info to articles on various films. I believe this is all done by the same user, who is evading this active block on one of their old /48s. Is anyone familiar with any LTAs or former users that have done this type of vandalizing? Additionally, I would appreciate it if people kept an eye out on sketchy edits like these. Thanks. eviolite (talk) 02:17, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up and looks like they've been range blocked. Same user behind this gem. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 12:10, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Trick (1999 film)

Hello. Fine Line Features (the film's US distributor) stated that the film did "credible business" in the United States. I tried to put the fact in the article, but it was keep removed by User:Joeyconnick.

I don't want to get involved in editing war for a long time, so I put the matter in here for discussion. Other wiki pages also indicated that whether a film is a commercial success, like Eighth Grade (film) and An Inconvenient Truth. If the film's US distributor indicated that the film did "credible business", I think the wiki page can also mention that too. -  Marychan41 ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:29, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

The source seems reliable and all but "credible business" seems like a very awkward piece of information—does that mean it underperformed, was a modest success, made its budget back? Looking at the article, it seems the gross is reliably sourced (to Box Office Mojo) but the budget isn't (imdb is not to be used as a source), so it might be worth phrasing this in a way that shows context: "Trick grossed $2,087,228 at the box office,[1] which was seen by as its distributors as "credible business".[2]". If the budget could be sourced reliably then just work it into that same sentence. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ^ˣ 13:43, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Your suggestion is very good. Thank you very much. -  Marychan41 ^{(♔ ♕)} 12:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Feedback requested at WT:Biography

Your feedback would be appreciated at this discussion at WikiProject Biography: WT:BIOGRAPHY#Modification of several dozen biographies to note signatories of the Polanski support letter. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 00:37, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

RT and MC wording

Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated at WT:Review aggregators#Arbitrary break. This has come up countless times over the years, and WP:AGG is just an essay, but it would be great to have some level of participation we can deem relevant and put this conversation in the rearview. Thanks in advance! --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:37, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

The Unsung Heroes

Additional eyes could be used at The Unsung Heroes (film). An editor who created the article continues to add redundant promotional citations, and some of these citations contain deliberate false information (appearing in festivals, winning information). I am concerned that this film's notability has been inflated by rounds of the same promotional articles being published by different news sources. Could someone please take some time to look over it or dive for more sources? It is a fairly recent film, but sources may be in Malayalam. BOVINEBOY2008 18:03, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Streaming

Should movies infoboxes and templates include in which streaming service the movie is available?

Zidane tribal (talk) 03:15, 5 September 2021 (UTC)