Talk:Friedrich Engels

When did Engels meet Marx

The article seems to give two different dates for Engels fist meeting Marx--first on his way to Manchester, in the offices of the Rheinische Zeitung, and then, later, in Paris. The latter is not explicit in saying "first" meeting, but seems to be a conclusion that could be drawn from "earlier correspondence," and "prior to meeting Marx." Although possibly not contradictory, the references are confusing.

Bgladish (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, that's less than perfectly clear. So the offices of Rheinische Zeitung, where the two met in "late November 1842", was in Cologne, yes? It might be much clearer if the article stated that instead of just saying "On his way to Manchester", which might even suggest it was somewhere in England. It looks like the phrase "Prior to meeting Marx, Engels had become established as a fully developed materialist and scientific socialist, independent of Marx's philosophical development." should be moved back to that meeting in Cologne. But we ought to check what is said on p.71 of P. N. Fedoseyev et al. However, somewhat contradicting that claim, the Rheinische Zeitung article says this (emphasis added): "Frederick Engels, who first established close personal relations with Karl Marx in 1844, later affirmed that it was Marx's journalism at the Rheinische Zeitung which led him "from pure politics to economic relationships and so to socialism." (sourced to McLellan p.57). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Feminist categories

@Martinevans123: I'm having trouble understanding your edit summary. the article does not currently seem to support it - do you mean the article does not support Engels' status as a feminist? If so why reinstate the categories? feminist (talk) 18:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Ah. For some reason I thought you had added them. Please go ahead and remove. Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps I am subconsciously internally conflicted. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Irish

On the sands at Ramsgate there was a performing dwarf – a clown – who was surrounded by a crowd of small boys; he was dressed as a Brazilian general. Engels spoke to him in Portuguese, then in Spanish, but got no answer. At last the “general” spoke a word. “Ah"! called out Engels, “this Brazilian is an Irishman “And he addressed him in his own language. The poor wretch wept with joy when he heard him talk.

— Paul Lafargue, Personal Recollections of Engels (1905),
[1]

This seems fairly feeble support for the statement that…

Engels was … able to write and speak in languages including … Irish …

Being able to say hello is no guide to his ability to write in a language at all. —☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:01, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes that seems rather weak support. Although the same source also says: "His wife, who was of Irish origin, and a warm patriot, was in close relation with the Irish, who were numerous in Manchester, and knew of their plans. Many Fenians sought refuge in her house, and among them the man who planned the rescue of the Irish prisoners from the prison van." He and Mary Burns in fact never married. But it seems likely he may have spoken Irish with her? All supposition if course. I'm also assuming Burns was an Irish-speaker. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

p.s. quite a good little article on Engels and the Irish here, although it says nothing about his knowledge of the language. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

However, looking to the de.wiki article Friedrich Engels, it says this (sources copied over in German):

"Engels spoke twelve languages ​​actively and twenty passively, including ancient Greek, Old Norse, Arabic, Bulgarian, Danish, English, French, Frisian, Gothic, Irish, Italian, Latin, Dutch, Norwegian, Persian, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Scottish, Swedish, Serbo-Croat, Spanish, Czech.

So I think perhaps the entry here could be expanded somewhat? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:24, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

The statement in the de.wiki article above is not entirely clear - I think "spoke" probably means "understood"? But were his 20 "passive" languages wholly different to his 12 "active"? It is curious that the list actually contains 23. Also, his native tongue of German is not included. So that would make 24? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:41, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

References

How Engels met Mary Burns

"In Manchester, Engels met Mary Burns, a fierce young Irish woman with radical opinions who worked in the Engels factory."

But there doesn't seem to be much consensus? At any rate, at least may it seem less final that it's how they met.

From the Smithsonian article: If Mary was not a factory girl, there were not too many other ways in which she could have made a living. She lacked the education to teach, and the only other respectable employment available was probably domestic service; an 1841 census does suggest that she and her younger sister, Lizzie, worked as servants for a while. A ”Mary Burn” of the right age and “born in this parish” is recorded in the household of a master painter named George Chadfield, and it may be, as Belinda Webb suggests, that Burns took this job because it offered accommodation. Her mother had died in 1835, and she and her sister had to come to terms with a stepmother when their father remarried a year later; perhaps there were pressing reasons for their leaving home. Certainly a career in domestic service would have taught Mary and Lizzie the skills they needed to keep house for Engels, which they did for many years beginning in 1843.

Not every historian of the period believes that Mary was in service, though. Webb, noting that Engels described taking frequent, lengthy walking tours of the city, argues that Mary would scarcely have had the time to act as his guide to Manchester had she labored as a factory hand or servant, and may instead have been a prostitute. Webb notes that Burns was said to have sold oranges at Manchester’s Hall of Science–and “orange selling” had long been a euphemism for involvement in the sex trade. Nell Gwyn, King Charles II’s “Protestant Whore,” famously hawked fruit at Drury Lane Theater, and the radical poet Georg Weerth–whom Mary knew, and who was one of Engels’ closest associates—penned some double entendre-laced lines in which he described a dark-eyed Irish strumpet named Mary who sold her “juicy fruits” to “bearded acquaintances” at the Liverpool docks.

(Mary initially being a prostitute appears more likely.)

CLML427 (talk) 06:54, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Inconsistent spellings in article

The current article has inconsistent spellings with:

• both US and UK spellings, e.g. both 'labor' and 'labour';
• references to both Das Kapital and Capital.

If the article is made consistent, which of the above should be selected?
Hsq7278 18:55, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

As Engels lived for some of his life in England, I'd suggest that British English should be used. And I think Das Kapital, as in the article name, is preferable. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:03, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Have changed accordingly as this approach makes sense
Hsq7278 23:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)