Talk:British National Party

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References of Fascism

All those references that claim the party is Fascistic are outdated, the last being from 2000. Mr.Griffin has since denounced the Nazi ideology which the BNP once abided by.--AryeitskiySaldat 16:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Show evidence that Griffin has denounced facism Lurker (said · done) 09:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Just look at the party's constitution

look, this comes from the first page of the constitution on the left,

7) Every party member has the right to express criticism or dissent on matters internal to the party

While by definition Fascism is a totalitarian and authoritarian ideology.--AryeitskiySaldat 00:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You can't just use the party's own statements in characterizing their ideology. Firstly, because it's possible for groups to lie about their political positions (I'm not saying the BNP are doing this, just pointing out a possibility). Second, because to make a conclusion about what their ideology is, on the basis of their policies, as you do, is original research. If you have a reference to a reliable source that shows a change in the BNP since the time when the sources currently in the article were written, that's a good reason to cease using those sources. But your own belief that the sources do no accurately characterize the BNP does not make the sources "outdated." VoluntarySlave 02:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You are mistaken VoluntarySlave, this is not merely a statement but comes from their constitution, which are the principles that comprise the party. A group's memebers can lie about their political positions but the party's political position as presented is what they campaign on and what they promote, even if they may believe some different things off the record. Nick Griffin probably still has a negative outlook on Jews but his party is officially positioned against Islam and that makes his party's position anti-Islamic. The last reference comes from 2000 and the Constitution was revised in 2003, so I have provided a reference that the party is no longer Fascistic because it shows that the party now rejects authoritarianism.--AryeitskiySaldat 03:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

But concluding from the party's constitution that it is not fascist is original research. An apparently democratic constitution may or may not be incompatible with fascism; but, as WP editors it is not our job to make that decision, but rather to reflect the balance of reliable sources. There's plenty of stuff in the constitution that I could quote to make a case that the BNP are fascist; but my personal interpretation of their constitution is not a reliable source.

As to your more specific claim that the change of the constitution in 2003 invalidates prior sources, the section you cite does not appear to have been changed in the party's history, so I still don't see any reason to suppose that the sources given are out of date. VoluntarySlave 07:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The Soviet Union had a constitution that guaranteed freedom of speech, association, etc, but it was in practice totalitarian. All the constitution can support is claims made about what the BNP say, not what they are/do (i.e. it is a valid source on the constitution of the BNP). To dispute the matetr' we'd need a sourced quote from an official BNP spokesperson denying that they are fascist: but from WP:NPOV that would only lead to a section on whether or not the BNP are fascist, because so many commentators claim they are.--Red Deathy 07:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Lenin himself said that the opposition belongs in prison, would you please give me a reference or something that shows the USSR had that in their constitution. A major reason why I don't think that the BNP can be classified as Fascist, although it shares the racial element of Fascism, is because their major argument against Islam is the fact they believe it is incompatible with a civilized society that values freedom and democracy.--AryeitskiySaldat 16:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Most organisations, political parties etc. would describe the BNP as fascist. To say they are not facist because they claim not to be is to give the BNP undue weight over other sources. Lurker (said · done) 16:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

1936 Soviet Constitution

ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

ARTICLE 125. In conformity with the interests of the working people, and in order to strengthen the socialist system, the citizens of the U.S.S.R. are guaranteed by law:

freedom of speech;

freedom of the press;

freedom of assembly, including the holding of mass meetings;

freedom of street processions and demonstrations.

These civil rights are ensured by placing at the disposal of the working people and their organizations printing presses, stocks of paper, public buildings, the streets, communications facilities and other material requisites for the exercise of these rights.

--Red Deathy 16:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This all good and well but this Is all circumstantial what direct evidence is there to prove the BNP are infact fascists and it is not a creation of the media or an opinion?--Lucy-marie 17:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The main problem I have with those references is that they're books and cannot be verified online.--AryeitskiySaldat 17:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

• Hmm.. well the first definition I find on Google (of Fascism) is "A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism." (www2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/terms.html; comes up 1st with Google). Well, one might argue the toss over the dictator bit, but the BNP are sure described by the rest of that definition. So if the definition is good, then the BNP are fascist. By definition. Of course that is only one definition. And a very brief one at that. Perhaps someone can readily source a definition of Fascism which does not also define the BNP in large part? Would be interesting to see it if such exists. Marcus22 20:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Lucymarie asked "what direct evidence is there to prove the BNP are infact fascists and it is not a creation of the media or an opinion?" Well, the sources that have been deleted (and should be replaced until this debate ends) are perfectly reliable. I will list others below, but it is up to people to read them! Creation of the media? Come on, the British media across the political spectrun describes the BNP as fascist; not unpleasant, not nasty, not unnice, but fascist. Likewise, the mainstream political parties and their leaders describe the BNP as fascist (as quoted in article). Now, if its good enough for the Daily Mail and the Conservative Perty (neither of which align with ny general views), then it's good enough for me. AryeitskiySaldat has a problem that the references are books and cannot be verified online. Tough. Go to a bookshop and buy them or go to a library and borrow them. Wikipedia sources based on the Internet are generally less reliable than published works - if you cannot access the references then you are required to asume good faith - that's a basic Wiki principle. The fact that some books predate 2003 when the leopard apparently changed its spots does not mean it's not a leopard any more! Besides, most of these books have had later editions in any case.

Now for a reading list of journal articles, with some quotes. Each of these puts forward a view that the BNP is fascist and in direct tradition of the fascist groups whicg proceeded it and from which it grew.

• • "By 1999, the BNP was publicly identified as extremist, far Right or 'Nazi', with many journalists using the latter term." D Renton, "Examining the success of the British National Party", 1993-2003" in Race & Class 45(2) p 73
  • "At far-Right gatherings, Griffin has insisted that his party is still 'National Socialist'; it just puts its message across differently." ibid
  • "The threat of neo-fascist political groups such as the British National Party (BNP) or the National Front (NF) marching into Bradford sparked fury amongst the city’s Pakistani population." Y Hussain and P Bagguley "Citizenship, etnicity and identity" in Sociology 2005; 39; p413
  • "Within cross-national studies of the far right, Britain has generally been viewed as an anomaly, a place where the far right are unlikely to succeed. The reason given to explain this has usually been that the predominant extreme right movement in Britain, the BNP, has failed to modernize and instead has maintained overt links to the old fascist tradition" J Rhodes: "The 'Local' Politics of the British National Party" in SAGE Race Relations Abstracts 31(4) p 8
  • "The problem with this in the case of Britain is that while the BNP have been unable to shake off the tag of fascists, and it could be argued they have done little to suggest otherwise, they have been able to make sporadic breakthroughs." ibid p 14
  • "The BNP was not the first British fascist party to stand in elections." D Renton " ‘A day to make history’? The 2004 elections and the British National Party" in Patterns of Prejudice, vol 39, No 1, 2005 p2
  • And finally, a title that says it all: D Reilly "Contemporary British Fascism: the British National Party and the quest for legitimacy" in Race & Class, 2006: 48; p104 Emeraude 22:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm..,those quotes don't seem particularly reliable and i'll give a few reasons. First of all, since when is a journalist a reliable reference. It is highly possible that the media that published many of these things did so out of 2 motivations. First, to associate a negative connotation to the party and 2 to attract attention and make subsequent sales. Another reason I have a problem with them is the fact that several claims, like the one that said Griffin said his party is still National Socialist is stated without making any reference to which getherings they were or when they took place. Emeraude claims that just because the leopard changed his spots doesn't mean he's still a leopard is a nice metaphor but this is a political party and not a biological entity. The stance of a party can change as its members and the political climate around do, but a leopard is an animal and I think that is just a cliche Emeraude used to try and keep something he wants to believe in the text. It is possible that they still have different feelings from what they preach but until a good reference is given then it is only speculation and isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia.--AryeitskiySaldat 00:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You can't just discount sources because you disagree with them. Race and Class and Sociology are serious scholarly journals; they're clearly reliable sources. In combination with the fact that you've given us no reason to doubt the continuing relevance of the earlier cited sources, there's clearly a significant branch of scholarly opinion that considers the BNP fascist (check the talk archives for even more references). What reliable secondary sources do you have with which to contest this? VoluntarySlave 01:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You're claim is incorrect, I have given reasons. One, by their constitution the BNP is anti-authoritarian or pro-demnocratic and those sources are outdated and deal with the party before Nick Griffin reformed the BNP. This dialogue isn't yet finished and you aren't supposed to re-insert it until this is cleared up. Emeraude claims the party could still be secretly Fascist but that is only hypothetical and I rememner reading an interview between Griffin and Nick Ryan in the book -Into a world of hate, a journey amongst the extreme right- where Griffin was obviously rather critical of Nazism. The whole party's case against Islam for instance is the fact they believe it is a religion that is incompatible with a civilized society which values freedom and democracy.--AryeitskiySaldat 04:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

But this is all original research. Your interpretation of the constitution, your interpretation of the BNP "reforms". We can't base an article on these (because, as I said above, other people can have different interpretations); we need secondary sources; if a journal article says "the BNP are fascists" or "the BNP are not fascists," we can all agree on what the secondary source means, even if we don't agree with what it says. If you want to question the sources that claim that the BNP are fascist, you need to provide unambiguous sources, not your own interpretations of sources. You don't seem to be responding to the substance of people's objections - that you are removing sourced information on the basis of original research (in the form of interpretations of primary sources), rather than on the basis of reliable secondary sources. If you won't engage with these criticisms, I have a hard time seeing how we are going to resolve this disagreement. VoluntarySlave 04:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• On one point "This dialogue isn't yet finished and you aren't supposed to re-insert it until this is cleared up", I'm afraid it doesnt work like that. References to fascism have been added over time by numerous editors. The consensus is that the BNP is a fascist party. If you want to have such sources removed you need to get a consensus that agrees with you. Until you establish that consensus, those sources remain - as does the view that the BNP are fascist - an integral part of this article. (As I'm sure you will understand, it's not the other way around for the simple reason that anyone could dispute anything and have it removed from any article and drag a debate on (and on)..). Hope that clears that up. regards Marcus22 16:17, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It is clearly stated in the party's constitution that every member has a right to criticise the party's strategy and policies. That is not a statement which can be debated as to what is infers. This statement also shows that the party favors a democratic system where freedom of speech is guaranteed. I realize the party has alot in common with Fascism but calling them Fascist infers that they're authoritarian which is incorrect. I subsequently propose that we insert DEMOCRATIC Fascism rather than just Fascism.--AryeitskiySaldat 21:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether the BNP should be described as fascist or not, that will depend on the "Reliable Sources" used (and I don't see any of those in this Talk). But I can tell you that your argument here is "Original Research" and is invalid for use in articles. You must quote what there is in secondary sources, you should not be using primary sources (or certainly not as you are doing). PalestineRemembered 12:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• • I've never heard of "democratic fascism". Does it exist? Isn't that a bit like Military Intelligence? A contradiction in terms. Marcus22 22:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Well then the party cannot be considered fascist because they're pro-democratic. Either being neo-democratic and Fascist are possible or the classification of the BNP as a Fascist party is incorrect.

This is all convoluted and no consensus is ever going to be gained as the BNP have never won any power either by running a local council or a whole parish council so what they would actually do in government is unknown so fascism which is characerised as a "style of government" cannot be used as they have never been any form of government.--84.66.110.223 11:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

No but it's form of leadership shows that the party tolerates dissenting views. Therefore categorization of Fascist is incorrect.--AryeitskiySaldat 15:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that the sources are outdated and that the concept that the BNP is Fascist has been discredited by AR, many of you are still clinging on technicalities to keep your POV against the BNP in this article. Here is a reference which is from 2004 that shows the BNP is no longer Fascist and any claim that they are still secretly fascist is only hypothetical.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/no_confrontation.htm

8th Place

AryeitskiySaldat asked why do I remove this reference? Well because it is misleading and pretty meaningless. In the first place; the BNP did not "finish 8th". There is no 2nd place in a British election. The winner wins and the others lose. So you may as well say they 'lost' the election. Should we put that in? That the BNP lost the election? Secondly; the SNP polled more votes than the BNP. Does that mean the SNP "finished higher"? Nope. The BNP stood nationally. The SNP only stood in Scotland. Thus there is no valid comparison between the results of the SNP and the results of the BNP. (And likewise PC in Wales and the UUP in NI). Thirdly; it's a misleading thing to say. It tries to imply that the BNP are even in the same ballpark as Labour etc... But they are not. They only got 0.7% of the vote. Peanuts. Like it or not, at least in the 2005 Election, they were a minority party with very little support. It's better to just say they got 0.7% of the vote and leave it at that. However, I won't revert this point again until I hear your view. Marcus22 16:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is implying they're in the same ball park as the Labour party, the fact they finished 8th shows this. Everbody knows the BNP has a relatively small support, atleast for now. But it is relevant to show approximately where this party stands in British politics and it shows that they're not irrelevant like Communists and Nazis are.In sporting events everybody loses except the winner but it is still noted who finished where. In sports like Tennis they have a rating system to show people where which atheletes stand and it makes a difference if one is rated 8th and another is rated 40th.--AryeitskiySaldat 21:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Reverts & Fascism sources etc..

User AryeitskiySaldat is continually removing the consensus viewpoint (ie that the BNP are a fascist party) from this article. Can he/she please refrain from doing so until he/she has either provided reliable sources to indicate otherwise or has established a new consensus. Thankyou. Marcus22 18:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

AryeitskiySaldat should read WP:3RR Lurker (said · done) 18:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

There appears to be a legitimate reason for the removal there is no consensus for incision and no firm evidence in the above discussion has been provided to replace the outdated sources,--84.66.110.223 21:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

• (Note: above comment is possibly a sock puppet. Marcus22 21:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC))

Aside from the fact that the sources are outdated and that the concept that the BNP is Fascist has been discredited by AR, many of you are still clinging on technicalities to keep your POV against the BNP in this article. Here is a reference which is from 2004 that shows the BNP is no longer Fascist and any claim that they are still secretly fascist is only hypothetical.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/no_confrontation.htm

• But this is not an acceptable source. It is the BNP leader making a political statement. Though it may have relevance elsewhere in the BNP article ("Griffin has said that...."), it cannot be cited as evidence that the BNP is not fascist. Besides, the Party's constitution is totally irrelevant to this issue, which concerns the BNP's political ideology, not its internal organisation. And let's remember that the Nazis achieved power through the ballot, with some later power struggles. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the BNP, a fascist party, is going to appeal to British voters to let them come to power through a coup?!?! Get real. Mussolini didn't, Hitler didn't. They started as electioneering parties and subverted the national constitution when they had sufficient power given to them. Their internal organisation did not make them fascist - their ideology did. Emeraude 22:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

What you're saying is hypothetical, there is no proof that the BNP would do the same thing Hitler did and that was caused by the stupidity of others who handed that power over to him. The link is admissible because it shows the platform and philosophy the BNP is campaigning under and arguing that they're concealing something is hypothetical. You have shown that you're only pushing your own agenda and opinions and Wikipedia is not a place for this.

The link is valid for a "what the BNP say about themselves" type sentence, however, it doesn't explicitly disavow fascism, and one of the elements of fascism is populism, so a vague commitment to referendums (tyhe device of demagogue and dictators)is not really a devastating counter-point, you need a solid, perferably reputable third party reference stating that it is no longer reasonable top call the BNP fascist. It's not a tall order for you, I'm sure if you seek you will find, until then the weight of referenced evidence is for fascism and your claim based on the constitution comes under WP:OR--Red Deathy 08:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

the weight of reference can only be found in the constitution because the sources are outdated.

Can we get a definition of fascism and can we please have these reliable third party sources shown here on this discussion so there legitimacy can be examined.--84.66.110.223 10:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Just because POV-pushers who want the Fascism bit in the article outnumber those that don't doesn't mean there's a consensus regarding it. If this is truly an encyclopedia it should be based on who makes the best argument and it is a fact that Fascism is Totalitarian and that the BNP doesn't fit into that categorization because it tolerates dissent in its party. Nobody has provided a concrete argument to this. Emeraude has only provided some childish metaphors and highly hypothtical, POV-pushing opinions regarding what would happen if the BNP is elected.

Many of their policies can be linked to Totalitarianism, such as oppression of labour unions, use of propaganda and misinformation, promotion of mass surveillance and the use of fear tactics. Totalitarianism has always been very close to nationalism. Nationalims is believe by many to be a large part of totalitarianism. I believe there are many citations to contradict your claim that the party tolerates dissent. Such as the expelling of John Tyndall, the campaign against chris jackson, in which nick griffen posted comments in his blog threatening his supporters with expulsion. --Neon white 14:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The debate is done and dusted. Several times over. Please stop disrupting this article. Marcus22 11:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

A few users (AryeitskiySaldat (talk · contribs), 84.66.110.223 (talk · contribs), 24.203.217.224 (talk · contribs), and perhaps others) have been removing content describing the BNP as fascist, claiming that the BNP has since renounced Nazism. However, the only source produced was from the BNP itself and its reliability has been doubted by other users (notably Marcus22 (talk · contribs), lurker (talk · contribs), and Emeraude (talk · contribs)). This has disrupted the previous consensus -- that the BNP is indeed fascist -- and the conflict has become a messy edit war. --Ratiocinate ^{(t • c)} 02:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact is that the BNP is presently campaigning on the basis of its constitution which clearly has elements which are incompatible with Fascism. You may be skeptical of this but an encyclopedia is not a place for speculation but of fact. ^{<unsigned comment>}

• I may be wrong but as far as I can tell it is just two users: but it is only the one (blocked) user and his many sock puppets who is disrupting the consensus with continual reverts. Again I may be wrong, but it also appears the same user has done the same thing on several fascist/far-right pages in other guises and that he has, possibly, been blocked permanently in other guises from editing Wikipedia. Marcus22 09:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

That's what it's appeared to me as well, but I want to be neutral and avoid escalating this into something messier. Cheers! --Ratiocinate ^{(t • c)} 18:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

How can we be both sock-puppets if you check our IP adresses we don't even live on the same continents. Funny how when you have no etort you answer with an accusation like that. ^{<unsigned comment>}

[WP:RS]]; claims of this nature cannot be supported solely by evidence from the entity in question. If the editors have third party sources making the same claim, then it'd be a different story. But currently I don't see how they have a case for inclusion of the material under WP:RS. -71.136.245.240 21:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The third party sources are outdated because they pre-date the party's endeavor to reform itself. If you want to find a third party source fine but then find one that isn't archaic. ^{<unsigned comment>}

The BNP have been portraying themselves as "reformed" since well before those sources were published; indeed, some of the sources discuss this change in the way the BNP present themselves. Even if you don't like the sources in the article, Emeraude presented four sources from 2005 and 2006 above. There are clearly reliable third-party sources that argue that the BNP are fascist. Where are the reliable third-party sources that question this? VoluntarySlave 07:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I've now added a note in the infobox that the description of the BNP as fascist is contentious, and denied by the BNP. Although this is ugly, it applies the NPOV policy to this controversy, which looks to me to be the only way to resolve this issue. -- The Anome 07:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll not revert, but is tehre any actual reference to the BNP denying they are fascists? The point about the constitution is presently OR, and hugely contestable.--Red Deathy 07:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I've got one -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/3533941.stm, a BBC report from 2004. Quote from the cited article: "The BNP has denied it is a fascist party and has accused opposition parties of wanting to stifle free speech." -- The Anome 09:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• Well, first off, there's clearly not much debating with someone who may be a banned user with numerous sock puppets. Someone who does not have the common courtesy to even sign their comments. So may I suggest that other, more responsible editors, refrain from continuing to engage this user in any "debate"? Second, I'm also happy to go with The Anome's solution - even though the contested sources have been contested only by suspected aforementioned sock-puppet. Thanks for the input Anome. It might be OK to just replace the small-font which you have added with a simple <disputed> also in small font? But I'll leave that call up to you. However, the sources which refer to 'fascism' must surely stay? Then a reader can read those and make their own mind up as to whether or not the BNP are a fascist(ic) party or not. regards Marcus22 12:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

This appears that unless credible sources which prove the BNP are fascist today and not in the past and an accurate definition of fascism then there can be no grounds for the inclusion of the label fascist. It is not disprove to remove but prove to include, which must remain the principle focus.--Lucy-marie 22:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The reliable third party sources claimj teh BNP is fascist, without another third party source reliably claiming the opposite it remains the verifiable content. the membership hasn't changed significantly, Griffin was around when the sources reliably said it was fascist.--Red Deathy 07:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• • BNP apologists may not like it, but there are two pertinent facts here: 1. Reliable third party sources say the BNP is a fascist/ic party - and some of these sources are included in this article 2. No third party sources (reliable or otherwise) have been provided which state that the BNP is not a fascist/ic party. Until those sources have been provided, that's an end to the matter. Marcus22 09:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Can we get a definition of fascism and can we please have these reliable third party sources shown here on this discussion so there legitimacy can be examined.--84.66.110.223 10:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• No. Look up both things yourself and/or stop being a pest. Marcus22 17:14, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• I understand the frustration on each side, and this is a contentious issue. However, I am a bit uncomfortable simply dismissing these users. Though you allege them to be sockpuppets -- which may or may not be true, that's not my point -- they did raise a reasonable objection. In addition, Lucy-marie, who has made nothing but valuable contributions to this article, has made a point which nobody has refuted. While I believe that the BNP is fascist/ic, we must have an up-to-date, reliable, third-party source. --Ratiocinate ^{(t • c)} 17:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Ah, but the issue of socks or not v regular editors is important here. Countless regular editors - not just those involved now - have created this article and they have provided sources for the fascism claim. (There are many more sources which could be used to make the same point). So now.. along comes a possibly dubious user who, time and again, removes those aforementioned sources and reverts on the basis of what exactly? On the basis that the BNP claim they are not fascist. Now that's OK once or twice. Sock or not. We can all make a point. But that user then continues to make these reverts in the face of i: the aformentioned and clearly still established consensus and ii: the existence of third party sources in the article which refer to the BNP as fascist. Not content with that, they then fail to provide any third party source to support their claim. In short, without any third party source, one anonymous user (thus far) is doing multiple reverts and running counter to the will, sources and work of every other editor. Surely they must desist? I see only anarchy for Wikipedia if this type of editing and reverting - on such grounds - is allowed to continue. Marcus22 19:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

  I see your point, and I agree -- I was the one of the editors who reverted the repeated removal of the fascism label. In addition, I don't think we ought to remove it unless it's clear that the BNP is, indeed, no longer fascistic. This cannot be established by just citing the BNP declaring itself so. Nevertheless, I haven't seen anyone address the issues that this user (or these users) raised. Let's say, hypothetically, that the BNP isn't fascist any longer. If all the sources we pull up are from before its declaration, then it's rather clear that these sources are out of date. While Red Deathy has a point, we can't just assume that the BNP is still fascist because the membership hasn't changed significantly. We need to keep WP:V and WP:OR in mind, so let's find a reliable, up-to-date, third-party source. Cheers! --Ratiocinate ^{(t • c)} 19:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• That's fine by me. So the conclusion to this debate would be; the references to fascism stay for now (otherwise we open the gates to anarchy in Wiki world) but we have the (fairly common) qualifying <disputed> tag placed next to the word fascism. New 3rd party references are then sought which might support either one viewpoint or the other. If such sources are found to support one side but not the other - then we go with that. If such sources are found and they support both views, the <disputed> tag remains as would all new sources. Perhaps the other user(s) can agree this to? No more need to revert. The discussion seems to be over. Marcus22 21:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is reasonable. --Ratiocinate ^{(t • c)} 21:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
• I have an interesting point what if no sources are found?--Lucy-marie 00:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• If no new sources are found, then it should be left as <disputed>. (Because that would be the truth). Marcus22 09:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• Sigh. Looks like another sock/meat puppet. --Ratiocinate ^{(t • c)} 16:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yup, the same sock/user in one guise or another has been attacking this page now - on the spurious BNP claim that they are no longer fascist - for some months. It is perhaps time that the article was permanently protected from edits by all except registered users? Otherwise this is going to run and run... Marcus22 18:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Unfortunately, I have not been able to access Wikipedia as much as I would like recently and won't be for several weeks, so I find this whole argument rather frustrating. Let me make one thing absolutely clear - the statement that the BNP is fascist appears in the infobox, and like all infoboxes, is intended as a brief and clear summary. The article itself is the place to say that the BNP denies it is fascist (which I beleive it currently does) and that this is disputed (again, the article does this). It is not good enough to put <disputed> in the infobox simply because the BNP disputes it; there are no reliable independent source that dispute it. Whatever, the references to the BNP being a fascist party are sound and I (and others) have provided plenty of other sources, all equaly reliable. May I repeat what I said some time ago: the internal organisation of the party is completely irrelevant here - we are debating the party's ideology - so any constitutional changes to the internal organisation a few years ago do not invalidate references that predate it. Besides, as any half competent political scientist will tell you, the constitution of a party has absolutely no relation to its philospophy, ideology or policies. (You might want to argue that any party that does not elect its leader is undemocratic. You will then find that the Conservatives were not a democratic force until very, very recently!) 213.36.152.189 21:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC) Apologies. Connection keeps logging me off so this appeared unsigned. Emeraude 22:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I second Emeraude's position.--Red Deathy 08:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

So what is the actual conclusion to the discussion here it seems that there are a lot of conflicting points which were being harmonised and now the debate has ceased so what is the outcome?--Lucy-marie 14:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the current article now reflects the consensus on this Talk page, pending any new references. --Duncan 14:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Coming from RFC, If the source used is from the party itself and it clearly states that it has renounced fascism or Nazism then that is definitely a reliable resource. An alternative example would be if George W. Bush claimed that he was a "Methodist" and it was referenced a s a source that he was a methodist. Who would call it unreliable? If he says he's a methodist then who are we to dispute it? If the BNP says that they aren't fascists or Nazi's then who are we to say that they definitely are? What we CAN DO is mention that specific people (sourced) say that it has fascist or Nazi tendencies, though we can't label it a fascist party if itself says it isn't one. That would be POV. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 21:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Wholly agree it is what I have been trying to say from the start I just haven't been able to be as succinct. The label is a POV push in my opinion and belongs in the opposition section only.--Lucy-marie 00:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, as this gives undue weight to the BNP. Wikipedia is supposed to be objective- if the balance of opinion among reliable sources is that the BNP is facist, it should be described as such. If not, it should not be described as such. What the BNP's PR people say is irrelevant- this is not an advertising site. Lurker (said · done) 10:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Lurker - if George Bush said he was a methodist, and then witnesses reliably claimed he had never set foot in a methodist chapel, regularly attended Mormon chapels, had been raised a Mormon and all his friends, family and acquaintances were Mormons, we'd list him as a Mormon, and note his curious claim...--Red Deathy 12:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

• I also concur. If I say, "I'm 700 years old", would that therefore be true? Marcus22 15:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Until reliable sources start referring to the BNP as an "ex-fascist" or "post-fascist" party (or start saying that the party is not fascist) then there's no reason for a change in the article. Reginald Perrin 19:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick thought, but those making the case that a clause allowing freedom fo dissent in the BNP means it isn't fascist seem to be missing the other factor that the role of the leader is still the dominant one - as the article currently makes clear, all decisions on policy are made by the chairman - the kind of arbitrary personal rule associaed with fascistic practice. So OR cuts both ways, an original research reading of the constitution could be used to reference a claim the BNP is fascist. or maybe we could wait for the reliable third party sources...--Red Deathy 10:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The BNP are implementing the Voting Membership where the activists and candidates vote on party policy, this means that the party chairman no longer makes the party policies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.204.208 (talk) 17:20, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

Although I myself do not consider the BNP to be a fascist party, couldn't we clear up this mess by saying that they are alleged to be a Facsist party by critics-User:GeorgeFormby1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeFormby1 (talk • contribs) 08:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• No. The debate is over. The overwhelming consensus is that the BNP are properly described as Fascist. Get used to it and please stop disrupting this page in one guise or another. Marcus22 11:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't stand some people, if every newspaper and news programme said that the world was flat, would that make it so?-User:GeorgeFormby1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.252.225.225 (talk) 19:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

This link simply gives the facts on the British National Party, and does not allege that the BNP are fascist, I think the article should be cleaned up and based on this.

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/bnp1.html

Actually, the article you have linked to states a European Parliament committee on racism described the BNP as an "openly Nazi party". Lurker (said · done) 14:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the article doesn't actually state that the BNP are Fascist (Like we have done) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.252.226.217 (talk) 17:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

not convinced about the reliablility and verifiablity of the source anyway. --Neon white 14:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Can I ask Lurker, and other regular editors, to not give these socks any more time? Debating with such casual IP's is fruitless. Marcus22 18:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Other Issues

No mention of the Facebook advertising controversy?

Earlier this month around 10 British companies pulled their advertisments from facebook because of their sanctioning of BNP related pages. Surely this deserves a mention? 81.154.133.162 19:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Londium 21:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

And when do we stop adding in every piece of anti-BNP news? When the article reaches critical mass and sufficiently warps space time enough to cause a black hole? The article doesn't exist to provide a streaming news blog. 81.153.49.180 15:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Racism in the article

The BNP are a racist party. I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that. And so due coverage should be given to this matter. But.. isn't it over done in the article? They are, in fact, more than just a racist party. They are sexist. They are militaristic (dangerously so). They are authoritarian (dangerously so). They are economic protectionists - ruinous to the economy of the UK. Shouldn't some of these things be elaborated upon? So that people who are attracted by the racism may see them for the cranks they are? And in order to make space for that elaboration, can we not cut back on some of the racism content? Marcus22 10:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

well the ecomony thing is opinion. They are also homphobic or anti-gay. --Neon white 14:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

another Neo-Marxist, the British National Party have specifically stated that they don't hate anyone, they blame the government for out-of-control immigration-User:GeorgeFormby1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.252.225.225 (talk) 19:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for that. Very erudite. But as your comment has nothing to do with the point I am making, can I ask that you move it to wheresoever it may belong? Thankyou, comrade. Marcus22 20:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Marcus22, do you think you are approaching this article from a NPOV or an anti-BNP slant? Be honest now. If you aren't NPOV, then why are you working on an Encyclopedia and not your own website where you can rip apart the BNP all you like? 81.153.49.180 15:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

the article is factually accurate, it does not contain any slander or libel. As extremist organisations are usually controversial. The controversy is noteworthy. --Neon white 14:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for that. Very erudite. But as your comment has nothing to do with the point I am making, can I ask that you move it to wheresoever it may belong? Thankyou, comrade 2. Marcus22 10:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial

What has this got to do with their policies? 86.156.88.25 21:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

No reply, so if no-one minds, shall I delete this section or move it to where it may be more appropriate?86.156.88.25 16:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, for a start, as this is a notoriously 'hot' article, it's not the best idea to wade in and make a lot of edits as an unregistered user without first making a case for those edits. Nor is it best designed to win friends and influence people to make single - and rather abrupt - statements such as the above. That said, as for the point you make here, I actually agree with you. Anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial are clearly NOT policies per se. So, as far as I am concerned, by all means move them to the appropriate section. Others, however, who may have put a lot of work into this article, may not agree. So why not show (some) good manners and wait to see what they say? Marcus22 16:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly relevant. The BNP tries to deny that it is a fascist party, yet these incidents and events in its and its leaders' not-so-distant past point to the opposite in this respect at least and are part of the evidence base that the BNP is fascist. The section could probably do with a rewrite, but not deletion or moving "to where it may be more appropriate". (Where would that be exactly?)Emeraude 13:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"but not ... moving "to where it may be more appropriate"" Why is it appropriate under policies? 86.146.124.30 18:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't their leader charged with offenses regarding publishing anti-semetic hate literature which involved some holocaust denial? --Neon white 13:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the consensus on moving this to where appropriate?86.146.124.30 20:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Fascism, redact

Template:RFCpol The page is now protected, and the simple issue is this: should it be included in the infobox that this is a fascist group, without giving the information that this is denied by the group? I am an outsider (American, silly me), and it seems like there would be a better way to handle this than to simply state they're a fascist group if they deny it. Can't it be stated something like "far right"? If fascism is included, then we should probably at least state that the group denies it. However, I am an outsider, and for all I know, this group could be Hitler reincarnate... The Evil Spartan 01:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• There are reliable 3rd party sources which state that the BNP are a fascist party. There are NO reliable 3rd party sources which state the opposite. They claim that they are not. Well they would, wouldnt they. That's an end to it as far as I am concerned. Please remove the protection. Marcus22 12:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• To be honest, I'm not quite seeing how we're going to negotiate if you're going to come across as that. It is relevant that they say they're not fascists, whether it happens to suit anyone's political point of view or not. The Evil Spartan 13:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• • "Come across as that"?!? Have you read the endless anonymous IP edits to the effect you propose? The countless times this page has been vandalised? The almost endless attempts to have this fiction inserted into this article by those anonymous IP's despite the countless regular editors who source the opposite?

But to answer your query, I'll put it bluntly for you, by way of an example: my mother and father say I am a certain age. My doctor agrees. My birth certificate agrees too. However, despite all those sources saying one thing, I say I am 700 years old. Does that therefore make my age a matter of debate? Would you now argue that "it is relevant that I say I am 700 years old"? What court of law would uphold my say so against reputable 3rd party evidence to the contrary? I cant think of one. There is no reputable claim to answer here. Marcus22 13:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• • • The difference here is that how old you are is not a matter of a point of view. And we must adhere to a neutral point of view. As for the other IPs, I have no idea what they add; all I'm addressing is that you want to include in the infobox that this is a fascist organization, without even letting it be included that they deny this. This strikes me as WP:WEASEL wording, honestly. If all these sources exist, then surely you will be able to come up with them: because the only one I see right now that says anything about Fascism is the Guardian, and even as an American, I know they're a pretty left-wing newspaper. At the moment, I'm not sure you have enough sources to even state in the article at all that they're Fascists, let alone exclude that they deny it. Please remember that we can't go by common knowledge, because a lot of people don't have that common knowledge (which is the reason we're writing the encyclopedia in the first place). So please do provide the sources. The Evil Spartan 13:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
      • i dont believe there is even a question of WP:WEASEL words. Fascism has a definition. It's not just opinion. The opinion of the party itself cannot be considered a valid source. I believe a consensus was already reached if you read above --Neon white 14:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
        • Um, if consensus was achieved above, then why is the edit war still going on? Clearely, consensus was not achieved. Look, guys, I'm going to have to be a bit crass about this: you're going to have to be more concrete than just saying "they're Facist, and that's just the way it is". Please, give me sources, reliable ones, so I can at least work with it. Once we establish that, then we can work on whether this claim should be in the infobox or not, and whether they're denial of it should be. The Evil Spartan 14:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
          • The issue is that the info box states an unqualified fact rather than the opinions of say a newspaper, therefore it has to be based on a definition of fascism. How do you source that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neon white (talk • contribs) 14:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
            • If we are basing the validity of sources on the assertion that the Guardian is a "pretty left-wing newspaper" then we have a problem. Ridiculous. Lurker (said · done) 15:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• "Please, give me sources, reliable ones, so I can at least work with it". There are reliable sources; they are there, in the article and edit history. What is going on here is that The Evil Spartan, is inverting the norms of Wikipedia by claiming that a 3rd party sourced claim - that the BNP is fascist - cannot be allowed to stand because as an unsourced 1st party claim - that they are NOT fascist - is being advocated by some people. I think that whole protect is very suspect. It might be an idea to get other administrators to look at this unless this matter is resolved quickly. Marcus22 15:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

He's not inverting anything. FACT, the sources are outdated and pre-date the party's reformed constitution which shows they tolerate dissent within the party. This shows that they abid by the concept of Democracy and being pro-Democratic is incompatible with being Fascist. This is a point that nobody was able to refute and there was an argument where some wanted the label Fascist completely removed, the part in brackets was the concession which everyone agreed upon, Marcus22 explicitly agreed upon that for instance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sviatoslav86 (talk • contribs) 02:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The sources are not "outdated"; in particular, they do not predate the introduction of the language you point to in the constitution.VoluntarySlave 03:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

They are outdated, the most recent one(I checked it) comes from 2000 and generally books that deal with political science or related things are of observations from 1 or 2 years prior. According to facts in this text that are sourced, the party no longer engages in Holocaust Denial, no longer associates with Skinheads or with Nazi groups like Combat 18, no longer promotes banning Homosexuality, no longer supports mandatory expulsion for non-whites but rather favors voluntary emigration under financial incentive etc.., All these reforms are from after the last reference was published and for this reason it is outdated, not to mention the fact the party supports dissent within the party is a rather strong refutation of the concept that the party is Fascist in itself. It would be like writing that the Republican party of the United States is White Supremacist whilst using a reference from 1950 to support that claim.--Sviatoslav86 13:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really, because teh senior members will have been members in 2000, the bulk of the membership remains the same. You can parade the OR of the permission of dissent in the constitution, and I can parade the references to the leader making all the decisions, till we're both blue in the face - you need credible, reliable, 3rd party sources. All teh points you address are discussed more or less in the article. Can you not find one soruces, otehr than an unnamed BNP spokesperson? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Red Deathy (talk • contribs) 15:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Sviatoslav86, at the very least, you need to provide sources that these changes have taken place since 2000. Note also that there are a number of other sources from more recently (I think up to 2006) mentioned in the talk archives. VoluntarySlave 00:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• Where and who are the sources that show the BNP is no longer fascist? Please provide them. And remember, they have to be reliable 3rd party sources. Not blogs, not gossip, not "the BNP say so" but independent reliable 3rd party sources. Marcus22 17:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Here you are, plenty of space for them:-

Everything I said about the BNP, which show that it cannot be accurately labelled a Fascist party, appears in the text and each thing is sourced, don't be lazy you can find them yourself if you look. Also, the senior membership can stay the same but things in life change. There are many Nazis which used to be Communists, Horst Mahler and Bill White are examples. Or look at the Skinheads, they started as a sub-culture that was inter-twined with aspects of Jamaican culture but the vast majority of them embraced the Nazi ideology in the 70's.

So that is the first reply from one of those who insist the BNP is no longer fascist; in other words, they appear to have no sources. Marcus22 18:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Would someone else care to provide these sources? The Evil Spartan perhaps? Marcus22 18:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Any balanced newspaper article nowadays, e.g.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1672185.ece http://politics.guardian.co.uk/farright http://www.express.co.uk/search/bnp/1/created/

etc etc all clearly show the common consensus that the BNP isn't labelled a fascist party.86.146.124.30 18:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• er.. But none of those sources say that. Do you think we cant read? The first talks, for example, about how anti-fascists oppose the BNP. The second mentions things like 'far right' etc... I cant see anywhere where it says the BNP are not fascist. OK, so, for a third time of asking, if there are ANY 3rd party reliable sources which say that the BNP are no longer fascist(ic) PLEASE DO PROVIDE SUCH SOURCES HERE. Marcus22 19:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
  • To be honest, it sounds to me like we should include that they are called far right in the infobox, or if we include that they are Fascists then it must be included that they disavow this. I'm sorry, but fair is fair - if a group claims not be of a certain persuasion, this needs to be included in the article. From my search on google, there is clearly no consensus on whether or not they are a de facto Fascist party, any more than Le Pen's party in France is. And I'm still waiting on the sources, guys, stating unequivocally that they're Fascist. The Evil Spartan 20:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree it should be included in the article that they claim not to be fascists. The question is, is the weight of sources sufficient to include the description in the infobox? It seems to me that it is; no-one has provided any third-party sources arguing against the description.VoluntarySlave 00:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
  • When the articles explain the BNP's political stance they never use "fascist". e.g. "Today, the far-right BNP..." To say that anti-fascists oppose the BNP helps in declaring them fascist is wrong. For example, the Stop The War Coalition protested Jack Straws comments about Muslim women wearing veils in public. Is this action helping to stop the war in Iraq?86.146.124.30 20:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• For a start, try a look at this google search. Looks like one or two people disagree. [[1]] Marcus22 20:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Reliable sources, dude (sorry). I could type in the same nonsense about Hillary Clinton being a communist, and get far more google hits: [2]. I suggest seeing WP:NPOV and WP:RS. And you still haven't provided any reliable sources, let alone any that state it so unequivocably as to convince me that we shouldn't even include the BLP's dissenting opinion of the classification. The Evil Spartan 20:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Dont DUDE me, pal. There are 189000 GHits on that search. There are sources already in the article. Marcus22 20:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Frankly this endeavour to make a point that the fact that self-described anti-fascist groups term the BNP Fascist is not admissible here on Wikipedia because for anything to be legitimate it has to come from a neutral source which these groups are not, they have it as their objective to discourage people from supporting the BNP. It would be like using something said on a site like JewWatch to claim that AIPAC or the ADL are Judeo-fascist groups. And the party isn't even Far Right, they have absolutely nothing in common with people like David Cameron or George Bush. They are rather Socialist oriented. In my opinion the party should be labelled Independent in the part of the Infobox which refers to their Political Position.--Sviatoslav86 21:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

If we are to call them fascist we should definiotely include that they dont like the term but I think far-right would be better as fascist is an insult that people in England very easily take offence to. Gogle hits is original research and thus not admissible. Troling Spartan away from this article is unacceptable and we must all remain civil and friendly, SqueakBox 00:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

But, presently, reliable academic/3rd party sources give them as fascist, we're looking for similar ones that state the opposite. Remember, this is the info box - the article could include a section on the fact that they dispute this appellation, but within the terms of wikipedia, WP:V in particular, the due balance has to be that they are fascists. I'kll give an example, the spgb page, at the time I was editting it I had access to the membership database, I knew exactly how many members there were - other editors wouldn't admit that as being compliant with Wikipedia policy, so I had to seek out a published source, that I knew to be outdated and incorrect, because that was verifiable. The standard for wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. Unless substantive, verifiable, reasons can be shown to invalidate the current references, then the apellation should stand - un-modified.--Red Deathy 06:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Look, you people are dodging the point that those sources are outdated and the thing you cited below is only speculation. In the text there are many things which show that they have disassociated from Fascism and Nazism and these facts in the text are all sourced. As I pointed out with several examples the fact that many senior members are the same doesn't necessarily prove anything because people often change in life and can radically change their views, often in more radical ways than the BNP has.Frankly I think that Fascism shouldn't even be there but I am willing to make the concession of letting it stay in as long as the part in brackets next to it remains.--Sviatoslav86 17:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Sviatoslav86, you're the one dodging the point - you've provided no third-party sources that the BNP changed their views after 2000, nor have you provided any third-party sources that reject the description of the BNP as fascist. You have at least, at long last, provided a source for your claim that the BNP denies that it is fascist; but, while that should be mentioned in the article, it is not sufficient to cast doubt on the many reliable sources that do claim that the BNP are fascist. VoluntarySlave 22:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there is a source I can think of which shows conclusively that Nick Griffin himself is not a Fascist, in fact that is the main reason why he ousted John Tyndall as party leader. There is a book mentioned in the text by a man called Nick Ryan called "Into a World of Hate, a journey amongst the extreme right" and in an interview he had with Nick Griffin in 1999 Nick Griffin actually states his dislike for the concept of a Nazi party and why he believes it has no place in Britain. You may claim he was lying but one thing that can be said about Nazis and other Fascists is that they are very overt and are often willing to risk being imprisoned for expressing their beliefs. If you are going to claim that they may be trying to guise it to gain power, one that is only hypothetical and two look at Russia where overt Nazis and in particular Skinheads are becoming very prevalent so logically they would not feel inclined to do so. If you go on sites of Nazi or otherwise Fasicst groups like B&H, the National Front etc.., you'll see that they strongly dislike the BNP.--Sviatoslav86 17:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Ironically, ousting rivals because of differences in policy is one of the key characteristics of historical facism. A non-fascist would have allowed discourse and differing opinions to have fair influence --Neon white 17:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what your point is exactly but the BNP actually tolerates dissenting opinions within the party. Just look at their Constitution.--Sviatoslav86 22:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

This'll be their constitution which asserts that the leader has teh final say on policy, and which openly commits teh BNP to opposing Marxism and Liberalism (hallmarks of classic fascism - see, my original research trumps your flimsy original resaearch. Perhaps we should rely on credible, verifiable, reliable 3rd party sources...--Red Deathy 06:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• It seems to me a reasonable approach would be to keep the fascist label with sources, but noting in small print directly below it that the BNP itself denies being fascist. OTOH, perhaps simply keeping the "far-right" label, which they definitely are, would be fair enough? Ngchen 13:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the case for any party that the leader has the final say but people in the group are permitted to bring up dissenting opinions, that is not typical of Fascist party and your sources are outdated.--Sviatoslav86 15:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The latest source is from february 2007! The Lib-Dems, teh Green Party, and teh Labour Party of yore the final say was with conference, not with the leader, nor are all appointments discretionary of the leader - but this is a debate about original research, research that is just as strong and original as yours, what you need are reliable third party verifiable resources to back up your claim. As I've indicated above WP:V says it must be verifiable, not necessarilly true,and if you can't find a source to back it up, it can't go in, and I've got a source from 2007, that is not out of date and explicitly looks at teh changes since 2000...--Red Deathy 15:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the source from 2007 and it is only a hypothetical assumption. Of the scholarly stuff the latest is from 2000 and that pre-dates the reforms the BNP has made. In any party the person elected as the leader has the final say on all matters, yet the fact Nick Griffin was able to replace John Tyndall through an elected process within the party shows that even before the BNP was at most only quasi-Fascist.--Sviatoslav86 18:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

A little help

Whilst a google search isn't much use, a look on Google Scholar for BNP "fascist party" (which is a search taht should bring up both sides of the claims) may help, so, happy hunting, lets see if an article you can cite turns up from there.

This has brought up at least one interesting article: Changing course or changing clothes? Reflections on the ideological evolution of the British National Party 1999-2006 Author: Nigel Copsey (Show Biography) DOI: 10.1080/00313220601118777 Publication Frequency: 5 issues per year Published in: Patterns of Prejudice, Volume 41, Issue 1 February 2007 , pages 61 - 82 [3]

"Yet, in truth, despite cleverly dissociating itself from inter-war fascism, Nick Griffin's British National Party remains intuitively fascist. To locate the BNP on the national-populist right is ill-advised, and even to argue that it is a hybrid of fascism and national-populism misses the point. At its core, its ideological vision is revolutionary: its long-term objective is a post-liberal, regenerated national community although Griffin's own permutation owes more to the radical ideology of the 1980s National Front and the ITP than the closet neo-Nazism of Tyndall's BNP or, for that matter, the national-populism of the French Front National. Consequently, the party's new ideological position should be treated with caution." --Red Deathy 08:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

n·tu·i·tion (nt-shn, -ty-)

n. 1. a. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing withthe use of rational processes; immediate cognition. See Synonyms at reason. b. Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight. 2. A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.

"the party's new ideological position should be treated with caution"

This quote doesn't prove anything except saying that he doesn't do anything other than SUSPECT the BNP are fascist, because he hasn't the evidence to make a solid claim of it.86.146.124.30 21:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You're misreading, I think. Copsey doesn't say that his intuition is that the BNP are fascist; he says that the BNP's intuitions are fascist ones.VoluntarySlave 22:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, plus I was just quoting the concluding paragraph of an article that generally maintaions, with definitions, that the BNP is a fascist party.--Red Deathy 07:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

That seems a good enough source as far as i'm conerned --Neon white 17:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to ask an Admin to add that article as a citation to the fascist description in the info box. I'd also suggest removing the BNP claim not to be fascist, that is something for the core text of the article...--Red Deathy 07:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

And you don't think we are giving an incorrect impression of the BNP by doing that? How notable is that source? And how neutral is it, with a magazine title like "Patterns of Prejudice"? Would you use an article by Searchlight to describe the BNP? The links I produced show quite clearly that in mainstream opinion the BNP is NOT referred to or recognised as fascist.86.146.124.30 13:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It's an academic, peer reviewed, third party source - by someone whose biography is one of writing on the subject of the far-right - explicitly arguing that the BNP is a fascist organisation - the links you give are merely the absence of such a claim, to refute it, you'd need to show us similar 3rd party, reliable sources from a peer reviewed journal. I've given you the link to a google scholar search that'll be your most likely chance of finding one, go forth, go forth. If the page were not protected I would have added that source.--Red Deathy 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll just add the stated aim for the journal Patterns of Prejudice provides a forum for exploring the historical roots and contemporary varieties of social exclusion and the demonization or stigmatisation of the Other. It probes the language and construction of 'race', nation, colour, and ethnicity, as well as the linkages between these categories. It encourages discussion of issues at the top of the public policy agenda, such as asylum, immigration, hate crimes and citizenship. As none of these issues are confined to any one region, Patterns of Prejudice maintains a global optic, at the same time as scrutinizing intensely the history and development of intolerance and chauvinism in the United States and Europe, both East and West.

Patterns of Prejudice is a peer reviewed journal published five times a year. The views expressed in its pages are those of the individual

As an ethno nationalist grouping the BNP are properly the subject of such a journal, without any warrant of assuming a priori prejudice by such an inclusion...--Red Deathy 13:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The discussion in the above the section is on-going, it hasn't been settled yet and you people haven't offered any rebuttals to some points of ours that have been made.--Sviatoslav86 14:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

That's right, this is a different section.--Red Deathy 15:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

So you think that the categorisation of every British newspaper can be swept under the carpet and left unmentioned because of one scholars opinion? Why is he notable? How many people read the journal compared to newspapers? "to refute it, you'd need to show us similar 3rd party, reliable sources from a peer reviewed journal" Where does Wikipedia policy state this? 86.146.124.30 17:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

He is a fellow of the royal historical society, 'the premier society in the United Kingdom which promotes and defends the scholarly study of the past.' He did his PhD on right-wing extremism in contemporary France and Britain. http://www.tees.ac.uk/schools/SAM/history_staff.cfm?copsey=true To quote the reliable aources page 'Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers'. It's verifiable therefore i don't see a problem with it.--Neon white 17:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

And so why are we ignoring every mainstream newspaper, and the BNP's own stated stance?86.146.124.30 18:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Which newspapers say that the BNP are not fascists? Cites, please. VoluntarySlave 19:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I have stated these before a little ways up the page:

Any balanced newspaper article nowadays, e.g.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1672185.ece http://politics.guardian.co.uk/farright http://www.express.co.uk/search/bnp/1/created/

Look for any newspaper website yourself. 86.146.124.30 20:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any articles at those links that say that the BNP is not a fascist party.VoluntarySlave 22:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Look up articles pertinent to te BNP on Amren.com. It is a racial site but is nonetheless of scholars and you'll find articles that disagree with the assertion that the BNP is a Fascist party.--Sviatoslav86 22:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I didn't see any such articles - most were eiether feeds from mainstream news outlets, what articles appeared to be internally produced seemed to just discuss teh BNP in terms oof ethno-nationalism - could you point us to a specific one? I'm afraid, with regards to your links above, the absence of evidence is not proof of absence - or, rather, just because mainstream news don't routinely call them a fascist party, doesn't mean they are. Look, it's very simple, find a credible, reliable, 3rd party source, makign the claim they are no longer a fascist party, and your job is done. At present such a credible, 3rd party source does make the claim they are fascist, and fascist after Griffin got in...--Red Deathy 06:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Despite your endeavours to impose your agenda here on Wikipedia, I have a reference here which shows that the party is no longer Fascist and it comes from 2006.

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/04/most_britons_ac.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sviatoslav86 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

My agenda being to uphold the rules of Wikipedia, remember WP:CIVIL that article does not mention the word fascism one, does not address whether the BNP is a fascist organisation, nor even convey any claim from the BNP to be a non-fascist organisation. You need a reliable, 3rd party source which explicitly makes the claim that the BNP is not a fascist organisation. That is, not something which you can construe as suggesting the BNP is not fascist, nor which can be interpreted or inferred from that they are not fascist, it must explicitly, directly say so.--Red Deathy 15:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

That article clearly shows that the BNP has reformed its policies and it is from 2006. The most recent reference you had was from 2000 and pre-dates the party's reformed stance.--Sviatoslav86 15:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, the most recent reference, which was no. 10 on the previous edit, and which is cited at the top of this section, is from 2007. Teh article only clearly indicates a degree of sympathy and widespread agreement with BNP policies. It does not mention fascism once, nor discuss in any way, shape or form whether or not the BNP is fascist.--Red Deathy 15:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I checked the references which you put next to fascism in the infobox and the most recent comes from 2007. The article doesn't mention Fascism because it probably thinks that the concept of labelling the BNP as Fascist is ludicrous. However, it does mention the REFORMED policies of the BNP which is our point that the BNP was probably Fascist before when those sources were published but has since changed and this neutral article shows that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sviatoslav86 (talk • contribs) 15:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

-I don't acknowledge the patterns of prejudice reference because aside from being biased it is only a hypothetical assumption.--Sviatoslav86 15:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

So, the most recent article is up-todate. Whether you recognise it or not, it is a text explicitly arguing that the BNP is fascist (tehre is no hypothetical, have you read the article?) Now, I've re-read the article you've linked to, it doesn't mention reform, or reformed once. you are intepolating ffrom the text, so it requires original research to use that text to demonstrate that teh BNP are not fascist, you need reliable, 3rd party sources that directly, explicitly - on any reasonable reading - claim that the BNP is not fascist. Now, you've gone beyond WP:3RR, and don't intend to, but please, consider trying to find a source that can be rationally used...--Red Deathy 15:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is a source needed to explicitly say they aren't fascist? Isn't public/mainstream representation by the media good enough to discount your articles that struggle to seem unbiased?86.146.124.30 17:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

POV addition

I added the POV header for a few reasons:

Having Fascism in the ideology box is clearly considered POVish by a fair number here.

Much of the article uses sources that are clearly anti-BNP and they claim this themselves.

Most of the article is dedicated to non-notable news items that invariably show the BNP in a bad light, without taking into consideration the BNP's opinion or reply. Now I can't make any edit to reconcile these points because they will immediately be reverted. It's no secret that most of the people who look after this article do not like the BNP one bit. So I'm asking for us all to have a look through this article to deal with the points I have raised and hopefully find some problems that we can all/mostly agree need to be solved somehow.

86.146.124.30 18:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It is funny how they thought you were a sock-puppet of me, when you're from London, and then accused another one of the same thing, when that person is from Montreal! It is almost funny how many of them try to use tricks when they can't refute something they dislike.--Sviatoslav86 18:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Could you be a bit more specific? What are the "non-notable news stories"? Which sources are you rejecting? VoluntarySlave 19:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)