Talk:Homeopathy

Please read before starting First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's homeopathy article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. A common objection made by newly arriving editors is that this article presents homeopathy from a non-neutral point of view, and that the extensive criticism of homeopathy violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Fairness of tone NPOV: Pseudoscience NPOV: Undue weight NPOV: Making necessary assumptions NPOV: Giving "equal validity". &WP:OR The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Some common points of argument are addressed at Wikipedia's Homeopathy FAQ. Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON). This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of homeopathy. See WP:NOT. If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of homeopathy or promote homeopathy please do so at google groups or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

Symptoms are defenses

Friends, I inserted the following sentence in the introductory paragraph and it was undone (hey Infophile...who suggested that I bring this up at the Talk page). Here's what I wrote: "Because homeopaths (and many modern-day physiologists) understand symptoms to be defenses of a person in his or her efforts to respond to infection and/or stress, using a medicine that mimics the symptoms of a sick person are thought to augment the person's own defenses. One of the underlying principles of homeopathy is its respect for the inner wisdom of the body and its viewpoint that symptoms are defenses of the body in its effects to defend and heal itself (references: J.T. Kent; G. Vithoulkas; many others). Because the homeopathic "principle of similars" makes more sense once one acknowledges this assumption, I believe that this information should be at the top of the article. Let's chat about this... DanaUllman^Talk 00:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that the "Law of similars" section is 1 paragraph and is short on information and citations, this seems an appropriate piece to place there. The generality in the current lead, that "Homeopathic practitioners contend that an ill person can be treated using a substance that can produce, in a healthy person, symptoms similar to those of the illness" is accurate without delving into the complex justifications practitioners claim in support of the law of similars and such. — Scientizzle 00:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

As I suggested before, this would be more appropriate for a daughter article on scientific justifications and analyses and criticisms etc of homeopathy. I would like to get those with so much extra energy involved in doing something constructive like writing that article instead of altering this article very much.--Filll (talk) 00:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

While on this subject, I mentioned briefly rewording of this, so I'll clarify what I had in mind. At the beginning, I don't think the note about modern-day physiologists is particularly relevant here (though if we have an appropriate, reliable source stating this, it's reasonable). Secondly, the word "understand" gives the impression that this belief is the truth, whereas it's debatable at best. Something like "believe" would be better here. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 02:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Dana, what part of that reference justifies your phrasing? Please provide a quote from that reference. I have looked, but am unsure what part you're referring to. We need a connection between your phrasing and the reference. Unless there's a clear connection, then it could be OR, but I'd like to hear your reasoning and see the evidence of a connection. -- Fyslee / talk 04:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I've heard this logic somewhere before, so I don't think it's entirely OR. Should just be a matter of finding the right source. I'll check if I can find something myself. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 04:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Checked what Hahnemann said on this, and his theories are different from what's presented here. He basically believed that the remedy would substitute itself for the disease's place in the body, pushing the disease out you could say. So the "symptoms as defenses" theory would have to have come after Hahnemann. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 04:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I am especially interested in making sure Dana's phrasing is based on the source. I'm wondering where his "(and many modern-day physiologists)" part comes from. -- Fyslee / talk 06:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Some symptoms are a defence. Many however such as cold sores are not. No physiologist would lump them in together.

Actually, thanx for that example. There is a significant body of research that shows that inflammation has an important defensive role in the body's efforts to fight infection. Hahnemann was a vitalist (a concept that not only emphasizes an energetic components of living things but also that living organisms develop symptoms in its best efforts to defend and heal itself). James Tyler Kent followed in this tradition, and in modern times, George Vithoulkas uses concepts of symptoms as defenses, thus creating the logic for using medicines that MIMIC these defenses. I do not think that anyone knowledgeable of homeopathy would deny that homeopaths respect symptoms as defenses, even though homeopaths will also be the first to recognize that it is not ususally enough to "let the body heal itself." Instead, the sick person needs some type of therapeutic measures that augment (or mimic) the body's defenses in order to overcome infection, environmental exposure, and/or stress.DanaUllman^Talk 07:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Whooops...as for the many modern-day physiologists, one can begin with Walter B. Cannon ("The Wisdom of the Body"), go on to Hans Selye (the father of stress theory), and more recently, I appreciate the work of R. Nesse and G. Williams in their seminal book "Why We Get Sick: The Emerging Science of Darwinian Medicine" (they see symptoms as adaptation and evolutionary efforts of the organism to defend and heal and evolve). There is a serious body of work on fever, on inflammation, and even on high blood pressure...and on and on. DanaUllman^Talk 07:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I basically agree that there is something to it, and some very specific examples can no doubt be cited. My main concern here is your phrasing and it's connection with the source you used. What part of that source are you paraphrasing or using to justify your wording? My quibble here is not with the idea. -- Fyslee / talk 04:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Fyslee, here's my proposal: "Because homeopaths (and many modern-day physiologists, such as Walter B. Cannon and Hans Selye) understand symptoms to be defenses of a person in his or her efforts to respond to infection and/or stress, using a medicine that mimics the symptoms of a sick person are thought to augment the person's own defenses.[2] One of the early and modern principles of homeopathy is its respect for the inner wisdom of the body and its viewpoint that symptoms are defenses of the body in its effects to defend and heal itself [J.T. Kent, Lectures on Homeopathic Philosophy, 1900; G. Vithoulkas, The Science of Homeopathy. New York: Grove, 1980]" I'm a reasonable man and am more than willing to work with others to make this work, or this premise is basic to understanding homeopathic philosophy and practice. DanaUllman^Talk 04:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

A few symptoms are defences, most are not. The life-threatening diarrhoea produced by cholera, the shortness of breath and chest pains of a heart attack, the loss of movement from a stroke, the loss of memory from Alzheimer's, coughing blood from tuberculosis, coma from cerebral malaria, even the stomach pain from an ulcer - none of these could be considered as defences. You can't suggest this as a general idea "are thought to be X", but must make it perfectly clear that these are fringe beliefs "homeopaths believe they are X" Tim Vickers (talk) 05:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This idea (symptoms are defenses) is by no means unique to homeopathy, but is also basic to naturopathy. It is a common and simplistic idea in alternative medicine. Unfortunately reality is much more complicated. That's one of the reasons "allopathic" is a true misnomer, since modern medicine is eclectic and doesn't follow any one rule, but tries to figure out what is really going on and goes with the flow of knowledge, ever changing as it learns. -- Fyslee / talk 06:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to try - yet again - to get my point across. I am totally uninterested in a "proposal" or anything else. I just want my question answered. What part of that source are you paraphrasing or using to justify your wording? My quibble here is not with the idea. BTW, I agree with Tim Vickers, which is basically why I even questioned this to begin with. But right here the sourcing is the question, especially only one source, the one you used to being with. -- Fyslee / talk 05:51, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Tim, you've got a great mind (and body of knowledge), but perhaps I have not been adequately clear. Homeopaths do not believe that a person's symptoms are always effective in healing him/herself, and in fact, we tend to assume that the bodymind is usually not effective in affecting a cure. It may more accurate to say that homeopaths (and many physiologists) believe that symptoms are the bodymind's best efforts to heal, though not always successful efforts to do so. Therefore, rather than use drugs that inhibit symptoms, homeopathic use drugs (nanodoses of them) to augment the body's defenses.

As a footnote, I encourage fellow editors to read the Nesse and Williams' book Why We Get Sick: The Emerging Science of Darwinian Medicine. This book links the body's symptoms as defenses to evolution of the species. (note to skeptics: homeopathy is not mentioned...I note this so that people don't assume that I am a homeo-aholic).

I wrote the above before I saw Fyslee's newest comment (we were writing at the same time)...bit it is now too late in the evening to consider an adequate response right now. DanaUllman^Talk 06:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but I disagree, Dana, that this idea has any merit whatsoever and it should not be included in this article. It is at best a marginal belief even within homeopathy (I bet most homeopaths have never even heard of the idea) and so I fail to see what possible purpose it could serve to include it. It is by no means a mainstream view as presented by Hahnemann. He regarded symptoms solely as an expression of the disordered vital powers and though homeopathy should employ agents that closely mimic those symptoms, that does not mean that the symptoms of themselves have any profound meaning or significance. He expressly distanced himself from that type of theorising in figures like Paracelsus, for example. It is purely speculative metaphysics to make such a contention, with which he had little truck because he was an empirical worker concerned primarily not with building up absurd and evidence-free theories about anything (an impulse in medicine which he repeatedly denounced), but because he was a pragmatist solely concerned with developing methods for healing the sick. I therefore reckon this idea is a dead duck and should be dropped. My 2 cents. Peter morrell 06:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Filll's new template at the top of this page

I am not impressed with Filll's new template. There is obvious personal POV editorializing by his inclusion of the following:

A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents homeopathy in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of homeopathy is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are:

• NPOV: Pseudoscience
• NPOV: Undue weight
• NPOV: Making necessary assumptions

Does anyone else see a problem with Filll's template? Arion 3x3 (talk) 00:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually I was lazy and just copied it directly from the intelligent design talk page. So although it could be improved I am sure, I figured I would just start with what we already had on an FA article.--Filll (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I think its fine, although i would reccomend expanding it since i am quite certian that those are not the only 4 issues ever discussd here. perhaps a reference to WP:Orignal research and WP:balance would be in order. Smith Jones (talk) 01:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

OR is already there, though it's not as prominent. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 01:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

yeah right Anywy i added it in. Smith Jones (talk) 01:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I would add the following:

• Where it says "tempers have flared," I would say that for some unknown reason homeopathy seems to excite in people the very wildest passions for or against it. Please therefore go steady and try to assume good faith and adopt as far as possible a collaborative and respectful attitude at all times towards other contributors.

• where it says about "soapboxing and personal attacks" it should also add that repeated abuse of the talk page or of other contributors will not be tolerated and is likely to lead to blocks or bans. Peter morrell

I added the link to the NPOV policy on "Fairness of tone" Arion 3x3 (talk) 23:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

in rough proportion to their prominence ?

I thought NPOV meant "neutral point of view." Negative material does not seem very neutral.

Actually NPOV is not really neutral, but includes all points of view in rough proportion to their prominence, including negative views, critical views, mainstream views etc.

"In rough proportion to their prominence" ; how this is defined? By the publiched studies in RS? If yes then the lead should change a bit to reflect that. --70.107.246.88 (talk) 15:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of ways to determine prominence, and I am not aware of any "official" method on WP. What it basically means is that there must be a good strong measure of mainstream and critical material in any FRINGE article, or pseudoscience article. Many view this negative material as nonneutral, but NPOV does not really mean neutral (in that sense anyway); instead, NPOV means including all the divergent views in one article. Some think that NPOV leads to bad writing, and it could be; however, there are other wikis which do not have NPOV and allow each article on a topic to promote a different view or agenda.--Filll (talk) 16:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

thanks Filll. ( The rest of your answer does not concern me - of course - otherwhise I would take it as a personal attack )

Anybody who has an idea how prominence is determined? --70.107.246.88 (talk) 16:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17429507-- Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not.270.107.246.88 (talk)

15:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

This would be a good source if we decide to create a subsiduary daughter article on scientific studies of homeopathic efficacy, or science and homeopathy or something.--Filll (talk) 16:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

@ Filll this is already in the article.

@ Jehochman what action are you taking if someone reverts without discussion? --70.107.246.88 (talk) 16:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not. I will add this in the article. --70.107.246.88 (talk) 16:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC) Comments ? Objections?--70.107.246.88 (talk) 17:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead but some will doubtless object. Peter morrell 17:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The paper has some lies serious misstatements in its lead which suggest it should not be used as a reference. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Well maybe you can detail these LIES here so we can all assess what you say? thanks Peter morrell 18:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"Regulated under federal Food and Drug Acts in Canada and the United States, homeopathic preparations are recognized as drugs in both countries...." is false in regard the US. They are regulated under FDA acts as foods or dietary supplements, not as drugs. There's no requirement for proof of safety or efficacy, as required even for grandfathered drugs (drugs in common use before the FDA acts). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You are confusing various regulations imposed on conventional drugs with classification as a "drug". However, the FDA quite clearly classifies homeopathic remedies as drugs (as ridiculous as that seems), including the normal establishment of rules on over-the-counter sales and prescriptions of such "medicine".[3] Vassyana (talk) 08:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can call them lies exactly more perhaps as errors of fact, apart from which the article would seem otherwise to be a good source, yes? Peter morrell 19:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

As such an error of fact should have been caught in the peer-review stage, it seems to be to negate the presumption that an article in a peer-reviewed journal is itself peer-reviewed. Hence it depends solely on the reputation of the secondary author (the primary author being a member of the society passing the article on for publication). If we can assert that the secondary author is a recognized expert in the appropriate field, the article might remain, and the statement might remain in the lead as a minority opinion. Otherwise.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• Ernst E (2005). "Is homeopathy a clinically valuable approach?". Trends Pharmacol. Sci. 26 (11): 547–8. PMID 16165225.
  • "Homeopathy is defined as ‘a therapeutic method using preparations of substances whose effects when administered to healthy subjects correspond to the manipulation of the disorder (symptoms, clinical signs, pathological states) in the individual patient’ [1]. It is based on two axioms: the ‘like cures like principle’ (as in the definition above) and the notion that ‘potentiation’ (serial dilution with vigorous shaking) renders a medicine not less and less but more and more powerful. Thus, many homeopathic remedies are diluted beyond Avogadro's number (6.0225×1023) where the likelihood approaches zero that a single molecule of the original substance is contained in the remedy. Both axioms are scientifically implausible."
• Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American journal of pharmaceutical education. 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507.
  • "This is a system of medicine that has been in widespread use for the last 200 years, the theory of which is diametrically opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge and theories."

What is the problem? Tim Vickers (talk) 19:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the {{verify source}} tag. I had assumed Boon (not Johnson, as I read the heading of the article) was used to reference the statement there that were some scientific studies showing a clinical effect, rather than the existing "diametrically opposed" clause. {{verify credibility}} is still open, though. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

TIBS is one of the top pharmacy review journals, I don't see why you are concerned that it might not be a reliable source. Could you explain your problem? Tim Vickers (talk) 19:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The statement that homeopathic remedies are regulated as drugs is clearly false. Even our article recognizes (with sources) that they are regulated as food supplements, rather than as drugs. Such a misstatement of fact seems to remove the presumption of peer review, as I commented in the section above. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Reading the later sections I notice they cite the later paper PMID 10391656 as "Additional scrutiny, including methodological revisions by the authors themselves in a subsequent paper, confirmed these findings", while in fact the re-analysis by the authors concluded that "We conclude that in the study set investigated, there was clear evidence that studies with better methodological quality tended to yield less positive results." and in the discussion "The evidence of bias weakens the findings of our original meta-analysis. Since we completed our literature search in 1995, a considerable number of new homeopathy trials have been published. The fact that a number of the new high-quality trials (e.g. [14,15]) have negative results, and a recent update of our review for the most “original” subtype of homeopathy (classical or individualized homeopathy), seem to confirm the finding that more rigorous trials have less-promising results. It seems, therefore, likely that our meta-analysis at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments." Any review that describes this conclusion as "confirming" the findings of the original meta-analysis is being at minimum disingenuous. I think I agree with you about this source Arthur, something with such obvious distortions can't be used uncritically. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Tim, I have a lot of respect for you and for you knowledge of research. However, you somehow overlooked the first sentence (!) of the article by Linde to which you refer above. "There is increasing evidence that more rigorous trials tend to yield less optimistic results than trials with less preacutions against bias." (They then provide 3 significant references). Their observations are that ALL clinical research results (not just homeopathic research) have diminishing positive finds the better the studies are designed and conducted. Further, you inserted into the article a statement that asserts that conventional medical studies are of a higher quality than homeopathic studies. According to Shang (2005), more than twice the homeopathic studies reviewed were of a "high quality" than the conventional medical studies reviewed. Can you show good faith by inserting this statement (it seems that some editors delete my contributions). DanaUllman^Talk 21:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In response to: According to Shang (2005), more than twice the homeopathic studies reviewed were of a "high quality" than the conventional medical studies reviewed. What's the ratio of studies done by homeopaths to those done by conventional medical researchers? Because this can easily explain how it can both be true that conventional studies are, on average, better than homeopathic studies and that there are more high-quality homeopathic studies than conventional studies.

Let's take an example. Let's say that 80% of all studies on homeopathy are run by homeopaths, while 20% are run by mainstream researchers. Now, let's say that of the studies run by homeopaths, one quarter (25%) are high-quality, and that of the studies run by mainstream researchers, half (50%) are high-quality. Then we get the results that of all studies, 20% are high-quality and run by homeopaths, and 10% are high-quality and run by conventional researchers. Thus, twice as many high-quality studies by homeopaths as conventional researchers, and yet conventional researchers have a higher standard for quality in general. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 21:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The Linde review deals only with the trials of homeopathic medicines, so their analysis and observations only apply to their data set. However, you're quite right that this is a problem across all clinical trials, it just becomes more of a problem when you're trying to distinguish the difference between no effect and a small effect. However, homeopathic trials seem particularly poor PMID 11801202, I've changed my addition so this statement should be uncontroversial. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that we all agree that MOST trials (homeopathic OR not) are poorly designed and/or conducted. I suggest that we ignore poor trials and only report on those trials that are RS and/or have had RS secondary sources say were high quality. The various meta-analyses that I posted earlier today are worthy of discussion because of their high quality. DanaUllman^Talk 01:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Dana, what exactly do you mean by "high quality"? Skinwalker (talk) 02:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Good question, Skinwalker. First, I do not think that we editors can or should make the determinations of what is and what isn't "high quality" research, though it is always tempting to do so. Instead, most meta-analyses have specific criteria for how they define high quality. Thus, I think that we need to rely upon RS's secondary literature. The exception here is when there is NEW research for which secondary sources have not yet evaluated them. The other exception might be publication in the upper region of RS. That said, all editors need to know that each field and type of scientific experiment has its own definition of high quality. For instance, while double-blind research seems essential for clinical research, there are research published in high impact physics journals that are not blinded. Also, there is also a body of "clinical outcome studies" that may represent more real and typical clinical medicine, thereby providing us with reliable information. Double-blind and randomized trials are not the only "gold standard." DanaUllman^Talk 03:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

" Also, there is also a body of "clinical outcome studies" that may represent more real and typical clinical medicine, thereby providing us with reliable information. Double-blind and randomized trials are not the only "gold standard." " Well, I think you have disqualified yourself from further comment on this subject, but in case it needs to be spelled out "clinical outcome studies" is just a euphemism for customer satisfaction surveys as applied to SCAM therapies. They allow you to infer exactly ZERO about the specific therapeutic benefit of the intervention under consideration. The fact that this tired canard is trotted out so frequently by SCAM advocates merely serves to show how weak is their evidence-base. Please do not insert any such surveys into any articles concerning homeopathy. To continue, you will find many RS to say that double-blind randomised controlled trials are the 'gold standard'. However, that is not quite true. DBRCTs are rather poor at allowing correction assessments of be made of highly unfeasible hypotheses. The fact that homeopathy, given a relatively easy ride in trials, still comes up with such weak trial data simply adds to the overall weight of evidence against it. "Instead, most meta-analyses have specific criteria for how they define high quality." Since the Linde meta-analysis of toxicology trials failed to define the parameters by which they judged trial quality I shall now remove it from the Ars Album page. Thank you for clarifying and agreeing this point. OffTheFence (talk) 18:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Wrong! The Linde meta-analysis (1994) cited have 31 (!) criteria (see page 483) for their evaluation of studies. Either you are showing sloppy scholarship here or are showing bad faith to fellow wiki-readers and editors. This subject was previously discussed, so I'm not clear how you missed it, but heck, we all make mistakes. I wish to AGF, and I hope that you will now stop inflicting your POV on this article. Work to maintain consensus and avoid large changes without it. DanaUllman^Talk 00:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, friend, they list the criteria, but they do not do so in a manner that permits one to work out how they were applied. Though there is enough detail to know that it was done badly. We needn't trouble the nice people here with all 31 criteria, but among them we have "Month of intervention(animal studies)" which is given 1 point, just the same as "Randomization/Matching". Well, that makes sense. Not. "Adequate Description of Number per test/group" gets 2 points. Note that the points are given for the adequate description, not whether the numbers are adequate. Well done. "Blinding" also gets 2 points. Hooray! Didn't stop them from creating a subset of studies to submit to meta-analysis where almost none of the studies were blinded and randomised so I think we can fairly conclude that their quality evaluation scheme didn't work. Another triumph from the homeopathic literature archive lies shredded on the floor. OffTheFence (talk) 21:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

30c

With regard to that ref about Hahnemann recommending 30c for provings, this is not entirely accurate. Most provings during his lifetime were done with crude doses of drugs or very low material dose potencies (such as 1x, 3x etc) so that quote is correct as per the later Organon, but taken on its own is very misleading. A better quote would be his recommendation that remedies should be given in 30c to patients. That can be found in Bradford's Biography. In any case Hahnemann did not recommend 30c for all patients until about 1830. Do you want me to find a good ref for that? For example: In the year 1829, Hahnemann came upon the strange idea of setting up a kind of standard dose for all curative remedies used in homoeopathy. This was to be the 30th centesimal. (Haehl, Samuel Hahnemann His Life and Works, Vol 1, pp321-22) thanks Peter morrell 19:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Here you go: "but for the Homoeopathic treatment of patients it is expedient in the preparation of all kinds of medicines to remain stationary at the decillionth attenuation and potency, in order that Homoeopathic practitioners may be able to promise themselves uniform results in their cures." (Hahnemann to Dr Schreter in a letter quoted in T L Bradford, Life and Letters of Hahnemann, 1895, p.467) [4] The decillionth dilution is of course the 30th centesimal. It shows that Hahnemann desired at that time (c.1830) for homeopaths to fix potency at 30c and not go higher. This is a better quote or source than that placed in the article today by User:Brunton IMO thanks Peter morrell 19:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

That is a good idea, though I think that it would be wise to make it clear that Hahnemann begun using simply somewhat small doses and that after 20+ years of careful observation of the results of his patients, he and fellow homeopaths began using high and higher potencies. At present, the article seems to suggest that homeopaths began using doses "without a single molecule" from the beginning (which is not true). DanaUllman^Talk 21:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The Martinphi-ScienceApologist Interview

What is the role of science in producing authoritative knowledge? How should Wikipedia report on pseudoscience? Veterans of numerous edit wars and talk page battles spanning dozens of articles across Wikipedia, User:Martinphi and User:ScienceApologist will go head to head on the subject of Wikipedia, Science, and Pseudoscience in a groundbreaking interview to be published in an upcoming issue of Signpost. User:Zvika will moderate the discussion. Post suggested topics and questions at The Martinphi-ScienceApologist Interview page.66.30.77.62 (talk) 11:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Placebo? Quackery!!

You people say that you have a Neutral Point of View, but when the article has something like this:-
Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not (but I believe the latter studies were flawed), it can’t have this matter as well:-
Claims for efficacy of homeopathic treatment beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by scientific and clinical studies,[7][8][9][10] although meta-analyses of homeopathy, which compare the results of many studies, face difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and the fact that most of these studies suffer from serious shortcomings in their methods.[11][12][13] The ideas behind homeopathy are scientifically implausible and "diametrically opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge".[14][15][16][unreliable source?] The lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy,[17] and its contradiction of basic scientific principles, have caused homeopathy to be regarded as pseudoscience,[18][19][20][21] or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, as "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst".[22]
Rather, it should be:-
There is evidence that Homeopathy works (see the book, "Homeopathy: The scientific proofs of efficacy"), but critics who haven't tried it, say that claims for efficacy of homeopathic treatment beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by scientific and clinical studies and that the ideas behind Homeopathy are scientifically implausible and "diametrically opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge"; the lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy, and its contradiction of basic scientific principles, have caused homeopathy to be regarded as pseudoscience, or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, as "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst"- the last sentence, obviously, will be objectionable to Homeopaths.
([[User talk:|talk]]) 08:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)Dr.Jhingadé

Hi, the policies relevant to your discussion are WP:NPoV, WP:Reliable sources and WP:Undue weight. You'll have a hard time convincing people that "Homeopathy: The scientific proofs of efficacy" is a reliable source, you would be best to stick to publications from mainstream scientific journals for claims of efficacy. The article lead is written to reflect the weight of scientific and medical consensus on homeopathy, but also gives some space to the minority who believe it is effective. Giving equal weight is a common journalistic standard, but on Wikipedia viewpoints are represented according to their weight. Jefffire (talk) 08:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

We then need to change Wikipedia viewpoints to "a common journalistic standard". I believe Homeopaths are not posting here because of paucity of time or else this article would not have been allowed to be so 'anti-Homeopathy'. I can post about the clinical trials the book mentions, but there will be too many to post about. Is that O.K.?-Dr.Jhingadé

No, we do not need to change Wikipedia's founding philosophy to accommodate fringe beliefs. There have been dozens of homeopaths posting here, at great expense of time and wasted breath on all sides discussing this issue. The article is "anti-homeopathy" only to the eyes of those who are believers in it. The article reflects mainstream opinion and reliable sourced material. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

When this sentence is O.K., viz.:"Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not (but I believe the latter studies were flawed)", one should accept the clinical trials the book writes about. I can post about the clinical trials the book mentions, but there will be too many to post about. Is that O.K.?-Dr.Jhingadé

We have that. We also have other material that's garnered us death threats. We don't let them sway us from NPOV, and so we're certainly not going to let your arguments do so. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 14:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, I'm posting this here because you seem to be on a rotating IP and I can't trust you'll see it on your talk page, but you should know that all homeopathy-related articles are currently under probation. There is reduced tolerance here for disruptive edits. You should be careful about continuing to advocate changing the rules of Wikipedia to accommodate the homeopathic viewpoint. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 14:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article on Islam is positive, it's only the article on Criticism of Islam that is negative, so why can't we apply the same rule here? Good you realised I'm on a rotating I.P., what else am I supposed to do? I can't let you guys allege we use placebo and are 'Quacks (I'm a Qualified Homeopathic Doctor)'.-Dr.Jhingadé

I'm considering semi protecting this page, because of inappropriate comments. In particular, the comment about Muslims was completely unacceptable. Also, stating the obvious, encyclopedic articles aren't written in the first person. Otherwise, your comments betray an overwhelming conflict of interest, to the extent that if you continue in this manner you are probably going to be banned from all homeopathy related subjects. Addhoc (talk) 14:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid these comments show that "Neutral Point Of View" is misunderstood to be "neutral" or "positive" or "non-negative" or "noncritical" or something. You have to actually read the section WP:NPOV. NPOV really means we include all relevant viewpoints. And in this case, the mainstream thinks that homeopathy is nonsense. And so, we have to describe that or we are not following NPOV. You see?--Filll (talk) 15:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Then why don't you write all the critical comments about Islam in the article on Islam, instead of the article on 'Criticism of Islam'? Addhoc (I don't know your real name), Muslims will support me if I write what I've written above - they will defend their religion against criticism.-Dr.Jhingadé
I'm sure we can have the the article on Homeopathy, edited to say what Homeopaths want and create an article on 'Criticism of Homeopathy' where all you critics can post to your hearts content-Dr.Jhingadé

Dear Dr. Jhingadé, it is most definitely not OK to "post about the clinical trials the book mentions" here. If you have read the discussions among the editors, you will understand that we have very good reasons to rely on secondary sources and will consider mentioning individual trials in only very restricted circumstances. If you have not read the discussions, I strongly urge you to do before diving in - in order to maximize your constructive contribution and out of fairness to the other editors. I have a problem with your comment that you "can't let you guys allege we use placebo and are 'Quacks'". If you can support your position with reliable sources, that is fine, but if you feel your honor is under attack because of properly sourced negative material, you demonstrate a lack of the required editorial neutrality. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Art (if you don't like being called Art, let me know, I'll call you Mr.Carlson), I'm not here to become an Editor, but I do feel my honor is under attack because of 'properly (really?)' sourced negative material. "I can't let you guys allege we use placebo and are 'Quacks (I'm a Qualified Homeopathic Doctor)'".-Dr.Jhingadé

If you don't want to be an editor then you have no business being here. This talk page is to be used to improve the article not for general discussion. Make specific recommendations based on reliable sources or don't comment here. If you want to right great wrongs, this is not the place. If you want to go prove how great homeopathy is, this is not the place. We can't do anything for you, but James Randi can, he'll give you a million dollars. So without any new sources for us with explicit examples of how to change our article, this conversation should be closed. Thanks. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Some articles on WP do have "criticism forks". These are normally discouraged and only are created as a result of consensus, and in the case of topics that are so extensive that it is felt that criticism forks are necessary. There is no consensus to create a criticism fork for homeopathy. Also, there is a fundamental difference between the homeopathy situation and the Islam situation. In Islam, criticism of Islam is a minority position and view at best. Even among religions, criticism of Islam is not an overwhelming majority position. Criticism of Islam is arguably a WP:FRINGE position. However, in medicine, homeopathy is clearly a WP:FRINGE view. The criticism of homeopathy is the dominant mainstream view in medicine. Therefore, when comparing Islam and Homeopathy, it is like comparing apples to oranges.--Filll (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, they're both fruit. It's more like comparing apples to camels. :) Tim Vickers (talk) 16:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

O.K. Schmucky, I'm going to be an Editor by default, because this article can be found on the Internet, presenting only the negative viewpoint. I did mention the book, "Homeopathy: The scientific proofs of efficacy" and if that is not reliable enough, I can post about the clinical trials the book mentions, but there will be too many to post about. Is that O.K.? Moreover, the trials conducted by Allopaths which condemn Homeopathy did not follow the principles of Homeopathy in selecting the remedies, so should y'all consider them to be reliable?

Filll, Homeopathy is not a fringe view, in fact, Homeopathy is the most widely used alternative medicine. Islam and Homeopathy are both articles and both are lesser known to the majority (Christians in the former and Allopaths in the latter case), so I'm sure you can create a fork for criticism with the main article giving the right perspective of Homeopathy-Dr.Jhingadé
P.S.: Effects should be good enough to accept that Homeopathy works. There is a Homeopathic remedy, "Nux Vomica", which in the 30th potency, taken thrice a day, can produce loose motion in anyone except the 'Constitutional' Nux Vomica Patient - this any one can try, to prove it works.
Most of you critics posting here haven't even tried Homeopathy, so if it is 'placebo', please try the above trial before posting about something you're ignorant about (I can send you the remedies for free, if you search for me on the Net and send me an e-mail).

Homeopathy is not a fringe view

Here are the facts:

• (1) Homeopathy is not a "fringe" view within the fields of alternative, complementary, and integrative medicine.

• (2) There have not been "dozens of homeopaths posting here". By my count, there have only been three (if you count Dr.Jhingadé).

• (3) "Dicklyon" and "Slim Virgin" are just 2 of a number of uninvolved editors - with no position on homeopathy one way or another - who have noted over the last several months the biased "anti-homeopathy" tone of this article.

This talk page is to be used to improve the article, and is not for general discussion and condemnation of homeopathy.

I propose that all editors work towards a consension version of this article - one that presents both sides of the issues involved without taking a stand for or against homeopathy.

For starters, I propose that this sentence be removed from the lead section:

The lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy, and its contradiction of basic scientific principles, have caused homeopathy to be regarded as pseudoscience, or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, as "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst".

This is simply a restatement of the negative previous sentence, and a violation of the Wikipedia policy: "Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization." (see Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Fairness_of_tone) Arion 3x3 (talk) 00:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Arion, You seem to be the only one here who has a 'Fairness_of_tone (not counting the proponents of Homeopathy)'. I believe Homeopaths are not posting here because of paucity of time (should we be seeing Patients or posting here?) and because the critics don't let them post here (critics keep blocking them) or else this article would not have been allowed to be so 'anti-Homeopathy'.-Dr.Jhingadé

It's verified with reliable sources. We're not here to support a POV of homeopathic pushers. Sorry to bust your bubble. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 01:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the trials mentioned were conducted, but those trials conducted by Allopaths which condemn Homeopathy did not follow the principles of Homeopathy in selecting the remedies (imagine if acetaminophen/paracetamol was given for a sprain, instead of a pain killer - it won't 'kill' the pain), so should y'all consider them to be reliable? I'm just asking y'all to give Homeopathy a fair chance, not support a POV of homeopathic pushers.-Dr.Jhingadé

Look what the truth about homeopathy is not really the issue. What you believe is not the issue. What we believe is not the issue.

However, would you agree that there are some in the world that are skeptical of homeopathy? If you agree that there are some skeptics and critics out there, we have to represent their views in the article too. It is that simple. Got it?--Filll (talk) 02:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

So I'm sure you can create a fork for criticism with the main article giving the right perspective of Homeopathy (reason same as above/before)-Dr.Jhingadé

First of all, why don't you get an account. Second, use a signature. Third, we don't do POV forks, because there is no POV, except yours. The NPOV is that homeopathy is unsupported by science. We're done here. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

There is good reason for not doing so. He is an indef banned user who has previously linkspammed Wikipedia:

• User:Dr.Jhingaadey
• User:Dr.Ramanand Jhingaadey
• Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Dr.Jhingaadey

-- Fyslee / talk 04:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I should have known. Add him to the sockpuppet list. Can't wait to have him banned. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, he's rotating his IP now, so we either have to get a rangeblock (though it does seem broad) or semi-protect this page. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 04:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I was blocked the first time because I had given external links to what I posted the first time (I did not know it was not allowed); the second time, I was blocked for 'sockpuppetry'. That's when I decided to start rotating my IP (you guys haven't been fair to me). Have you guys even bothered to look up the book I mentioned (I'm not associated with that book or web-site in any way)? At least remove that allegation that we use placebo and are 'Quacks (I'm a Qualified Homeopathic Doctor who's cured more than 10,000 Patients)'".-Dr.Jhingadé

Notes & references

This should be the last section. If you notice a new section below, please "fix it" by moving this section back to the bottom of the page. Thankyou