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October 22

Wikipedia Homepage Organization

Why is Spanish on the top right of Wikipedia's homepage --where Deutsch(German) should be at?

Spanish only has 400,000+ articles, while German has 800,000+ articles.

The language with the most articles should be place on top of the languages with fewer articles.

MrZhuKeeper (talk) 04:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any source to back this up but I would venture a guess that Spanish is the most popular second language in otherwise English speaking countries. And also, due to the fact that Wikipedia was started by Americans (correct me if I'm wrong) they chose the second most popular language in the US to take that spot. Dismas|^(talk) 07:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I also don't know the answer. But do you have an authoritative source for the claim that "The language with the most articles should be place on top of the languages with fewer articles"? It sounds like a personal opinion to me. --ColinFine (talk) 07:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

There was a recent decision, forget where I saw it, that the order would be by the number of readers rather than articles, which had previously determined the order.John Z (talk) 09:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

If they gave out the rankings based on pure enthusiasm, Esperanto would be in the top left corner. It blows me away that a language spoken by fewer than 2 million people worldwide has 100,000 articles in their wikipedia. English is spoken by 1.8 billion people and we only have 2.5 million articles. Darkspots (talk) 13:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008_August_1#New_Wikipedia.org_organization--132.206.22.13 (talk) 17:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The decision (which seems very logical to me) was to order them by the number of visitors (according to http://www.alexa.com rankings) - not by the number of contributors or by the number of articles or anything of that sort. Evidently, while the Spanish speaking world is not as enthusiastic about writing articles as the German speaking world - they do actually USE Wikipedia more frequently than German speakers do. It was generally considered to be better to organise the list by utility (greatest use for greatest number of people) than to reward active wikipedians or something of that sort. After all, who can say that the greater number of articles in German are necessarily of better quality - or relate to more useful topics than the Spanish version? In the end, the readership are the people who matter...if they find Wikipedia useful then we can help visitors out by listing the national versions that the greatest number of people wish to visit. Hence the Wikipedia's that are in the top ten list are the top ten most visited.

For those who are amazed at the number of articles in some of the more obscure Wikipedia's, it's important to realize that in some of these languages, the VAST majority of the articles are bot-generated from some kind of bulk source data. It's very easy to write a piece of software that takes (for example) lists of data for towns and cities in the USA from public databases and automatically generates an article in some language for every single city. That kind of automation gets you an enormous number of articles for almost zero effort. Some of the language versions that have been deleted (Klingon, for example(!)) were removed despite having more articles than other languages precisely because their inflated article counts were due to bot-manufactured pages. Even in English Wikipedia, you'll notice that articles about very small towns in the USA are almost word-for-word identical with each other - but with the salient facts about them inserted into the appropriate places. That's because all of those articles started off life as bot-generated boilerplate in the very early days of Wikipedia. Compare (for example) our articles on Springfield, Jackson County, Wisconsin and Springfield, St. Croix County, Wisconsin - they are almost word-for-word identical! Now let's take a look at the West Frisian language wikipedia - it has almost 10,000 articles - yet there are less than 100,000 people who can write the language with any kind of fluency. Let's look at their article on Illinois - it's perhaps a little surprising that the inhabitants of an island off the coast of the Netherlands would have taken the time to write such a comprehensive treatment about a US state...but go take a look at the article - it has the exact same structure as the Aragonese wikipedia's article here. Aragonese has maybe 10,000 speakers who all live in a couple of towns in the mountainous regions of Spain - we have over 10,000 articles written in that language - more articles than people who speak the language!! Clearly the same bot wrote both articles - and it's obviously the exact same bot that wrote the English article on Springfield, Jackson County, Wisconsin.

SteveBaker (talk) 12:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Although Friesland is a province not an island - its still quite small. Rmhermen (talk) 23:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

While the general idea of sorting by visitors is sounds, the idea of sorting by Alexa rank is highly flawed Alexa rank#Concerns over Alexa rank information and the Alexa Toolbar . It appears that this is now being sorted using the most logical measure (we run the sites, we should be able to measure visitors ourselves Meta:Talk:Www.wikipedia.org template#most visited wikipedias). I'm very disappointed that no one noticed the flaw in the proposal before it was implemented. Of course this isn't the place for such a discussion but since you suggested sorting by Alexa ranking was a good idea, I felt it needed to be said. Incidentally, German does in fact have more visitors then Spanish Nil Einne (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Taxes (IRS)

Does anyone knows what happens when you file your taxes late? A family member manages an athlete and they received the IRS in their home country until May. They mailed them to the IRS on May but they have yet to hear back. Whats the latest you can possibly be and still have everything go through? Keep in mind that the earner was in the US on a visa and resides overseas. Any bit of information will help. Thanks! Brusegadi (talk) 06:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How to Contact the IRS has an international contact section. Darkspots (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

From www.irs.gov:

If you are a United States citizen or resident, whose home and
main place of business or post of duty is outside the United States
and Puerto Rico on the due date of your return, you are allowed an
automatic extension until June 15, to file your return and pay any
tax due. This also applies if you are in military or naval service on
duty outside the United States and Puerto Rico.

This is in a section that is conditional on your tax year ending Dec 31. It is not entirely clear from this section what the deadline is if you're a fiscal-year filer whose home and main place of business is outside the US. I am just quoting here; this should not be considered advice of any kind and I could even have made editing errors, so if you want to be sure you should go to the site yourself. --Trovatore (talk) 19:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, actually, on rereading your question, it looks like this is not your situation, though it's a bit hard to tell from the way you phrase it. --Trovatore (talk) 19:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, taking advice from random strangers at a website regarding tax law is a fantastically bad idea. Contact the IRS, a certified public accountant, or a tax lawyer if you really want to know. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Very true, which is why I limited myself to quoting the official IRS site directly. --Trovatore (talk) 20:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all. BTW, I was not strictly seeking advice, just curious to see if I would find an experience that would make a good beginning. Taxes in the US are complicated. Thanks again, Brusegadi (talk) 04:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

the latest you can possibly be and still have everything go through is April 15th. Any later, and you need an extension. Even if you have an extension, you will still have to (a) pay an estimate of the taxes owed; and (b) pay interest on any tax owed but not covered in the estimate. And, yes, US taxes are needlessly complicated. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Effect of heat on food

How does heat add taste and flavour to food items61.2.235.1 (talk) 09:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Cooking is a little thin but covers this subject. Darkspots (talk) 10:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a little vague on what you mean by heat? Do you mean like higher temperatures or do you mean pungency? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 10:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I just meant the heat we provide for cooking , like we do in our cooking pans and all.

Mostly it's by various decomposition reactions in the food as it's heated - things like Maillard reactions, in which various components of the foods react and decompose to form new compounds that, to our tastebuds, are more flavoursome. If you're interested in this kind of thing some of the books by Hervé This are very interesting. ~ mazca ^t|c 11:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Mazca for your explanation.

12 year old girl tricks con-man

Hi I was wondering if any one would be able to help me locate an article please? Sorry that it's incredibly vague, but it's all I have to go on: Around 3-7 years ago it was reported in a number of papers (possibly including JAMA (Journal of American Medical Association) and the Economist) that a 12 year old girl had devised a trick that refuted a man's claims that he was able to devise something about someone, by doing something. Any help would be very much appreciated! Many thanks. 147.188.28.99 (talk) 10:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I tried searching the JAMA database, but there aren't many keywords to go upon: 12, girl, man, trick, con, that's about it. I couldn't find anything, sorry. zafiroblue05 | Talk 10:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Try Emily Rosa, the youngest person to ever publish in the JAMA. APL (talk) 13:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The Ref Desk and its contributors constitute an amazing search engine. Edison (talk) 14:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

APL - Thank you so much! That's amazing that you managed to find that so quickly! Thanks again, really appreciated.147.188.28.99 (talk) 15:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

type of music

There is a Type O Negative album called world coming down. On this album in the song White Slavery they have mixed in the sound of a tap dripping, but mixed it so that the drips are in different keys and therefore play a tune or melody. Also on this album they have mixed all sorts of sounds to create a musical journey of sorts. It cannot be described fully in words, you just have to hear it. Then there is a Devin Townsend album called Ocean Machine Biomech, this album, while not being the same type of music, has the same feel, it has been mixed and edited, mixed and edited over and over with strange sounds woven into it. What type of mixing is this or what type of music, how does one get these effects, I have mixed my albums 'till I am blue in the face but to no avail. It is almost as if there are no gaps in the music atall, even in the empty spaces there is something happening. What is this called, how is it achieved? Sorry if this is vague, but if you listen to these two albums you will immediatly see what I am talking about. Please help, Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 14:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

As far as I am aware the type of music is 'experimental'. We studied similar pieces to those you are speaking of in music when I was at school. Other pieces used far less technology to get the sound but the main distiguishing feature was a very abnormal sound, especially for western music. Hope this helps Weazelcheese (talk) 21:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Fox deterrent

Is there a proven way of deterring the local fox population from eating my chickens? I have heard of ultrasonic deterrents, but these may affect my dog. Does anyone have any successful experiences of deterring foxes? Thanks! sparkl_!sm ^hey! 16:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sporting goods stores often carry things like the scent of coyote urine, etc., which can deter smaller predators. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 17:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

My sister's chicken coop stands on a concrete plinth, making it impossible for the local foxes to dig under the coop's walls when the chickens are in for the night. Either that, or it's the scent of her 3 dogs that deters foxes from coming into the garden. Astronaut (talk) 21:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hardware cloth of 1/4 inch mesh will, per this site [1] keep out snakes, birds, mice and other little varmints, and would certainly keep out foxes from getting into a chicken house through windows. A fox trying to pass through hardware cloth would strain himself badly. With 1/2 inch mesh it would be cheaper. Chicken wire has a larger mesh still, and is a lighter built product, but cheaper. Some predators like raccoons can reach through it and grab poultry if they venture near. [Chain-link fencing]] comes in rolls for protecting a perimeter around a chicken yard so they can go out and scratch in a "free-range" manner. Remember to latch the gate and avoid setting objects or trees near the fence a fox can use to climb over. Hardware cloth or other metal can be buried along the perimeter to prevent digging under. A good dog tethered outside the chicken yard can alert you to come and deal with any thing which threatens the chickens. I am skeptical that an ultrasonic device would repel hungry predators without upsetting the protected animals. Edison (talk) 22:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, just buy a wire fence and put fox urine on it to stop 'em. - hope it works-Warriorscourge (talk) 04:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced fox urine repels foxes. Wouldn't fox hunter or Foxhound urine be more likely to scare them away? Edison (talk) 04:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

No. Foxes mark territory by urinatining. THAT'S why I chose that method. Oh, and, it doesen't scare them. -Warriorscourge (talk) 05:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

How the hell do you get hold of fox urine??!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.187.55 (talk) 07:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

First,catch your fox.... Lemon martini (talk) 10:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Google "fox urine". Click on top hit. Choose the form of fox urine you want (raw pee, granules, spray, etc). Enter credit card info. Darkspots (talk) 07:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to foxes catching the chickens while they forage during the day. A way I'd like someone to try is to place a trap inset into the fence of the chicken pen to catch the fox. Dont kill the fox or you will just get another one. Give the fox a memorable bad experience such as shouting at it and throwing water at it before releasing. I have never heard of any urine deterrent for foxes actually working. From experience I found that foxes will have trouble carrying large chickens over a fence to get away, this gives time for you to rush out and confront them. A good rooster will fight the fox giving you more time. Polypipe Wrangler (talk) 21:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The urine isn't a deterrent. It marks the chicken coop as some other fox's territory. --Carnildo (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

...Which deters other foxes ;-) . Ilikefood (talk) 03:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

To clarify - my chicken house is set on a concrete base, completely fox-proof. During the day they forage around in their own pen, which is made from 6ft high avairy wire. Problem is, the fox is (I suspect) cunning enough to climb over the back of the chickenhouse, onto the roof and down into the pen. What I want is not to have a completely fox-proof enclosure (he'll always find a way in), but rather to put him off altogether, so he doesn't come anywhere near my garden or the birds. This clever-looking device is more like it, but a) does it work? and b) will it be harmful to my dog?
I have to say there are some splendid ideas above though - thanks!! sparkl_!sm ^hey! 13:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Dilution of English as the UK national language?

After a gap of some 40 years when I lived in central London, I just had a week there and was amazed, despite having since lived in Scotland a mere 400 miles away, at how English has to all effects become a "minority language". Every race on earth, every creed and colour, every language imagineable, and every form of dress were very much in evidence, as were their own languages, dialects and accents in everyday useage. What truly amazed me was how many "service" personnel were from ethnic minorities and who simply didn't understand me and/or who couldn't respond in clear English. Add all of that to the fact that "cockney" English is itself quite difficult to the untutored ear, and I was left wondering how long it would take for that great cacophony to morph into something completely "foreign" to standard English speakers, whether UK born or otherwise, whilst perhaps becoming a London specific language all its own? Any suggestions anyone? 92.20.213.111 (talk) 18:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the key factor will be what language(s) 2nd-generation immigrants speak. If they learn English at school and use that among their friends, etc. and only use their parent's language at home, then there probably won't be much overall change to the use of language in the country/city. If they primarily use their parent's language, then I think we're likely to end up with discrete sub-communities (or, rather, keep and enlarge the ones we already have) each with their own language and little interaction between them (this is highly undesirable). Generally speaking, languages are constantly changing and migration is one of the major factors in that, English will probably absorb words from the languages of immigrants. At first, those words will be only used locally, but they may spread to the rest of the country over time. --Tango (talk) 19:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

A quick look over a Charles Dickens book shows that the language has moved (in written terms) quite a bit since his time, but for the most part it is still decipherable. I suspect that it would take many 100s of years for the english language in London (or elsewhere) to develop/change to such that a random english person in 2008 couldn't decipher most of what is being said by another english speaking person (though admittedly some dialects are easy to comprehend than others). I'm not sure if there is any studies online on language changing like this but can't search as my internet is through my mobile phone and thus ultra-slow (think 56k modem on a bad day) ny156uk (talk) 19:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Note: The following are responses to a post that the editor has since withdrawn:

I think what our questioner is saying, though, is that they don't so much "speak the language" as define or decide or influence, to an extent, what that language is that they and everyone else in their broader community speaks. It's a bit like the Uncertainty Principle - the very act of observing a phenomenon changes the phenomenon: the very act of bringing a different linguistic background to a new country changes the way the people in that country speak their own language. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia, xenophobia is an intense dislike and/or fear of people from other countries. IMO introducing the term xenophobia into this discussion is going well beyond the available evidence. I'm crossing out my comment as it referred to an earlier comment that has since been withdrawn. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Working in central London, I too am amazed at the variety of languages I hear just walking down the street on an ordinary day. However, according to our article, the population of London speaks over 300 languages; something that contributes to it being the world city that it is. Astronaut (talk) 21:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Being the OP, and having just returned to my question to see what if any responses I may have solicited, I am shocked at the appearance of the Xenophobia theme, which appears to have been edited out. For clarity, my question was entirely related to language development in london - and not to race-hate. Readers may have noted my comments about the difficulty of understanding cockney English?? But not having the benefit of reading the edited-out xenophobic comments, I feel deprived of answering any such comments objectively and must leave it therefore to those readers who had sight of them prior to removal. 92.20.213.111 (talk) 23:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The comment mentioning xenophobia was redacted by the person who wrote it. Seems they misunderstood your question. Don't worry about it too much; it happens all the time around here. Astronaut (talk) 23:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

That is a common problem in internet discussions. The lack of extratextual cues (not just body language, but tone and cadence as well) sometimes makes it hard to understand the subtext. Plasticup ^T/C 01:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It's surprising such misunderstandings don't happen more often than they do, given that it's generally considered that non-verbals normally contribute to around 90% of the meaning of a communication, with the words accounting for only about 10%. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Estuary English might be of interest for you to read, OP. It's not completely relevant, but it does show a trend in the opposite directon to your hypothesis. Steewi (talk) 05:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, I know people who are from an entirely English background having difficulty understanding some of the broader Scots accents. I think often when you learn a second language you are even more likely to have difficulty with accents you are not used to; a lot of the people you met may have been able to communicate well with London or South Eastern accents. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who works in London, I think it is rather charming that people from so many different cultures and countries want to live and work in our great city. And I certainly appreciate the efforts that they make to learn English, as it is much easier for me to understand their different styles of English than it would be if I had to try to make myself understood in 300 different languages ! Personally, I think the English language is enriched by this diversity, not diluted. Gandalf61 (talk) 08:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

it's not just language. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 18:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

October 23

Cornell's Reputation

How does Cornell University in Ithaca, New York stand in the world? I know its ranked 14th by QES and generally within top 20 by most ranking bodies. But from an employer's perspective, is it a well-known school with a decent amount of prestige? Specifically, how are the science programs? I would like to go to a good medical school, so I guess the best route to take would be to get a BS in undergrad with a major in one of the sciences? ITGSEETest (talk) 00:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, your future employers will have heard of it and will respect it. Short of Harvard, Yale, and Princeton you probably won't find a better school. If you are really into science you might want to consider technical schools like MIT and CalTech, but if you are interested in medicine, medical schools will appreciate the breadth of the Liberal Arts education offered at Cornell. A pre-med track at any Ivy League institution will leave you well prepared for med school. Plasticup ^T/C 01:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Plasticup's answer is absolutely correct. You don't have to be a biochemistry major to get into medical school, indeed the top American medical schools appreciate having students with diverse undergraduate fields of study, so get into the best school you can get into, major in what you love and make sure you take the required courses to get into med school as your electives. You should probably get Medical School Admission Requirements because every premed student at whatever university you go to will seem to have the knowledge of what courses, etc, that medical schools require tattooed on the back of their retinas—any good university you go to will be able to advise you of what courses to take as well. Darkspots (talk) 08:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Children's circle

I have read Whitley Strieber's books called Communion and Transformation and was interested with one thing. What is this "children's circle" that he was talking about? I think it is either a UFOlogy term or Western folklore but I'm not sure since the books usually intersects both UFO's and folklore. Googling doesn't help a lot.--Lenticel ^(talk) 01:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hal Lipset

Did Hal Lipset speak with an accent? It so what type? Did he have any notable habits?--Pufferfish4 (talk) 02:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm - we don't seem to have an article on this guy - which seems odd because he looks to have been pretty notable. Anyway - everyone has "an accent". I'm British, I live in the USA and absolutely everyone here (with the exception of myself and a few fellow Brit's) have one of a variety of really strong American accents. I, of course, speak completely unaccented English - yet strangely, nearly everyone I meet says "Oh! I just love your accent!"....go figure. SteveBaker (talk) 11:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That's because we don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are. Actually, Steve, just what is "completely unaccented English"? Seems to me there are a huge number of different accents in Britain, more these days than ever; is any single one of them considered the "standard" English accent? -- JackofOz (talk) 13:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think he was being facetious, hehe, making the point that we all consider our own accent to be "unaccented" until we learn better. I don't even notice my own accent, but other Brits can often place where I live within about 50 miles by it. ~ mazca ^t|c 14:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

50 miles, not bad! I remember reading that back in the days before easy travel and recorded media homogenised accents, a trained linguist could tell what street someone from inner London had grown up on. FiggyBee (talk) 15:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

See Pygmalion (play), My Fair Lady and My Fair Lady (film). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Apparently there used to be a cinema on the edge of Birmingham and The Black Country where you could tell whether people would turn left or right on exiting, based on their accent. 217.43.141.67 (talk) 12:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You have a point. I'll rephrase my question to:
What type of accent did Hal Lipset speak with? Did he have any notable habits?--Pufferfish4 (talk) 23:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

GONE

WarriorFIRESTAR is gone! He was my freind, and I didn't get a chance to talk. How can I find his talk page?!

-Warriorscourge (talk) 03:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi! You might be interested in asking further questions at Wikipedia:Help desk. However, the answer is you can still message him at User talk:WarriorFIRESTAR. If you wish to ask the deleting administrator further about why he deleted the page, you might wish to do so; but he provided a short explanation on the bottom of the page. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Oil prices

Oil prices have seen a sharp decline in the past several months. I remember hearing a credible argument that it had something to do with oil speculation having fallen (it had something to do with the housing crisis). Or was it something to do with the stabilization of the US dollar? I don't remember, so I'm asking here. :) Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

These things tend to depend on a number of things. The two that you mention are normally included among the factors that are believed to influence oil prices. I am not so sure about how much speculation has affected prices but the relative strength of the dollar to other currencies does have an effect. The decline can be due to many other things, so the healthy exercise is to think about how certain events may affect the price of oil, but dont try to think as to which events placed the price of oil where it is now. Brusegadi (talk) 04:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I love The Economist for these kinds of questions. There are a ton of factors here but the top two are slightly falling demand in the U.S. and the decision by Saudi Arabia to supply oil above OPEC targets. [2]. Saudi Arabia, alone among OPEC producers, actually seems to think about the health of its consumers (very important to future oil demand) and pumped extra oil all summer to try to lower prices below $100/barrel. OPEC as a whole may try to cut production this fall to support prices.

Nobody knows how much oil Saudi Arabia has. They claim to have a lot more oil than outside observers think they have. They certainly make longer-term decisions than other oil producers. Darkspots (talk) 08:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

A reason for the falling demand mentioned above is that many countries are falling into recession, so people have less money and are buying fewer things. Almost everything you buy needs some oil to manufacture whether for transporting materials or as an ingredient. Also, people who are afraid of recession tend to spend less and save more. Lower spending means less demand for oil. See e.g. [3]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.19.20 (talk) 12:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What do you call the postcard hoardings where you put your face through a hole?

This is driving us mad because nobody so far seems to know. They're the things that you often find at seaside and tourist spots, a vertical board normally painted with some kind of cartoon image with an oval hole where the face (or faces) would be. You stick your face through, pull a gurning expression and everybody gets their camera out to preserve the moment you looked like a chimp/astronaut/general fool. Anybody help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leigh21 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they have a special name. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

According to a friend who's involved with a seaside arcade that has a few of these, she generally refers to them as "face boards" but she's not sure if that's remotely a technical term for them. Quite possibly Richardrj is correct in that there isn't a widely-accepted name for these. ~ mazca ^t|c 17:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

A mask? 71.176.175.197 (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

No - it's the very opposite of a mask! With a mask, your face is hidden - but the rest of your body is clearly visible. With these things, your face is visible and pretty much everything else is hidden. SteveBaker (talk) 23:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

This very same question was asked a couple weeks ago. Someone might want to check the archives... Dismas|^(talk) 17:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous Reference Desk, 2008 September 14: The common name of that wood photo-op thing at circuses, tourist traps, etc --70.254.87.166 (talk) 01:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Valium

diazapam is a class c drug in the uk. can i buy it fram a chemist/pharmacy without a prescription? Or how would one go about getting it? Thanks this is not medical advise, I am just curious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 13:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

As a Class C drug, it can only be bought legally in the UK with a prescription. You would need to go to your doctor, then to a pharmacy. See Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_1971#Class_C_drugs. — FIRE!^{in a crowded theatre...} 14:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Many drugs require a prescription to buy, but it's legal to own them. You might try a mail order catalog for drugs that are legal to buy in a specific country. Offshore pharmacies will mail you drugs in a brown paper box. Try Google to find them. Phil Burnstein (talk) 16:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia and research funding

Have any academics or researchers so far been given funding (or paid leave from their normal duties) to contribute to Wikipedia? I don't mean studying WP itself, but contributing to articles on other topics. — FIRE!^{in a crowded theatre...} 14:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

People have been paid to change Wikipedia articles but I don't recall any of them having been academics. All the instances I recall involved politics or businesses. Rmhermen (talk) 18:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I remember a couple of scandals, one involving Microsoft and another a Congressman. I was wondering if anyone had been professionally involved in making disinterested contributions; edits they did "on company time" but not on topics where they or their employers have a conflict of interest. I thought academics would be more likely than big business to do that, but might be wrong. Actually now I think of it, the Microsoft case was a clumsy attempt to deal with bias against their products[4]. — FIRE!^{in a crowded theatre...} 19:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Darn good question. So far as I can tell, academia has simply not shown the respect for Wikipedia that would be entailed to do this.

I'd be interested to know even whether, outside of Computer Science and closely allied fields, any academic institution is even actively supporting the creation of open-licensed materials. Roy Rosenzweig has had some interesting remarks on that: see his "Can History be Open Source? Wikipedia and the Future of the Past".- Jmabel | Talk 20:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a number of academic institutions support creation of open-licensed materials. There has been huge discussions about copyleft licensing of academic works for some time now. See, e.g. PLoS.

And not paying people to edit Wikipedia is not the same thing as now showing respect for it. You could argue that they don't really pay people to write Encyclopedia Brittanica entries either—they don't generally consider that sort of work to be the same as a "real publication" (it doesn't count towards tenure), and they aren't going to relieve you of your teaching schedule to do that sort of thing. If I were an academic administrator I'd be dubious of paying relatively expensive academics (in terms of cost per hour) to work on something that some high school kid could erase or change when nobody is looking.

Plenty of academics edit on Wikipedia. Some have made editing on Wikipedia part of their coursework for students. But as for being paid to edit it... in academia, you only get paid to do three things: 1. teach, 2. administer, and 3. work on your own products of authorship. An academic couldn't put, "author of the Wikipedia article on automobiles, at least I was before it got reverted, and then there was that edit war, and now it has some of what I wrote in it, but really, I did a good job and if you went to the article now, it might reflect a little bit of what I did on it." That's not how academic authorship works.

That's one of the reasons why academics are not quite as quick to participate in collective-authorship. You don't get any credit in academia for collective authorship, because your own efforts and abilities as an individual cannot be easily assessed from it. That is an entirely different thing that saying academics can't release their work under copyleft licenses—many do. In those cases, though, the licenses are pretty explicit about how authorship has to be indicated, and in the end, the final products look a lot more like a piece of academic work than they do like a Wikipedia article.

I'm an academic. I like Wikipedia. I sometimes edit on it. I think it is obvious useful to people. But I don't think it's very compatible with an academic mode of authorship. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's also the case in many fields that academics are supposed to write new and original things - which is precisely what Wikipedia bans people from doing by saying No Original Research, No synthesis of ideas and that everything you say in article-space that is in any way controversial has to be referenced to some existing source material. Added to the requirements for Notability (which prevents you writing about super-obscure stuff) - there is really no fertile ground left for an academic to do something genuinely new. For people in non-academic fields, the desire to spend money generally requires some kind of pay-back - and it's hard to imagine how putting information in a public Wiki is better than putting it into a private one that you and all your other employees can reach - but which will not benefit your competitors. Hence, it's very likely that anyone who IS being paid to do this is doing it for dirty, underhanded reasons. SteveBaker (talk) 23:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Editing Wikipedia is very valuable training for students and one could consider that they are being paid to do that, but original research has to go somewhere it can be properly attributed and not altered by others e.g. arXiv. Dmcq (talk) 10:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Schwarzenegger, Bloomberg, Romney etc.

Why do locations which are typically Democrat strongholds in presidential elections - NYC, California, Massachusetts etc. - have Republican leaders like Schwarzenegger or Romney? 58.161.194.134 (talk) 15:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Because all politics is local, and the winning governor was able to convince a majority (or plurality) of voters that he would do better than his predecessor (who's often of the other party). Then, too, Schwarzenegger and to some extent Romney had wide name recognition. Ditto Bloomberg, who was previously a Democrat and most likely not Sarah Palin's idea of a Republican. In states like Maryland, long dominated by one party, voters sometimes elect a governor of the other party -- out of preference, fatigue, or pique. The election of Republican Robert Ehrlich was not enough to propel his lieutenant governor, Michael Steele, into the U. S. Senate, however, leaving the Republican Party once again without a single black member of the House or the Senate. --- OtherDave (talk) 16:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In short and spoken generally, because political affiliation can be weighted differently at different scales of political involvement. That is, not everybody who adheres to the party line in federal elections will see a need to do so in state or local cases. I'll also note that to a certain extent you're looking at a case of confirmation bias. By my count, 15 of 50 states have a governor of the party currently trailing in state-wide polling (based on List of current United States governors and electoral-vote.com). It's a sizeable chunk, but more than twice that match parties. A paper abstract from the National Bureau of Economic Research suggests that there's less incentive for candidates to adhere to party extremism at the local level than at either state or federal levels. — Lomn 16:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

North Carolina is the reverse. A strong Democratic trend at the state level but a Republican trend at the national level (although Obama is currently leading in the polls).--droptone (talk) 18:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In California, at least, the Democratic Party hasn't fielded a decent candidate in several gubernatorial elections. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 18:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Except for Gray Davis, who won in 1998 and 2002, only to have the second term stolen from him in a recall campaign that began less than 90 days after he was re-elected, and did not cite a single action or inaction that took place within those three months as justification for removing him from office. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Schwarzenegger, of course, first got in via a rather unusual process after a recall election.

NYC: what a complicated mess. Republicans who win in NYC are usually moderate-to-liberal, reformers, or both. In a city where the Democratic machine(s) can get pretty corrupt, people often look to the Republicans (LaGuardia, Lindsay, Giuliani, Bloomberg) to clean things up. But they sure weren't ready to elect Mario Procaccino. Also, race has been a factor: white Republicans have been known to do better than non-white Democrats with some working-class whites. Further, there is the adage that "A conservative is a liberal whose just been mugged": certainly Giuliani, at least, rode in on a (probably false) perception of high crime rates and (clearly accurate) perception of seediness. - Jmabel | Talk 20:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In most elections, the Republican candidate will be to the right of the Democratic one. However, a Democrat in Mississippi may be more conservative than a Republican in Massachusetts. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Conversely, here in North Carolina we reliably vote for Republicans for president and Democrats for governor, although there's a solid chance we'll reverse that pattern this year. --Sean 15:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Debt

If someone just stops paying their bills (utilities, loans, whatever) what happens? Do they just get the utilities shut off, their credit ruined, etc, or are they actually arrested or summoned to court? 71.176.175.197 (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the nation in question, but generally if you owe money to a firm (utility/loan/whatever) for a service you have previously used and then refuse to pay it you will go through several stages. First will be reminder-letters, then demand-letters, then (depending on the nature of the debt) it may be sold onto a debt recovery firm who will try to recoup the debt through many means (e.g. through the courts, through repossession of your possessions/home etc.). If all this continues to fail it may be that you end having to be declared officially bankrupt or could be placed in priosn for refusal to pay debts. As for utilities - yes they may cut you off from the supply, or for loans they may give you a bad credit rating. ny156uk (talk) 17:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you can be placed in prison? I thought unpaid debt is a civil matter and civil courts aren't able to jail you, even if you refuse to pay the judge's judgement against you. 71.176.175.197 (talk) 18:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In the past, you certainly could. I'm not sure if any jurisdictions still have debtors prisons. --Tango (talk) 18:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe in any industrialised nation you can be thrown in prison for failing to pay a debt, with the important exception of tax debts (which is why every debt counsellor advises you to sort out your tax debts first). DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In some places utility shutoffs are restricted by law. For example, in places with cold winters, if you have gas heat, the gas company may not be allowed to shut off your gas during the winter no matter what. (I don't remember any specifics, but I've definitely heard of laws like that.) --Anonymous, 18:42 UTC, October 23, 2008.

In the UK they can't cut off your water supply (although they can throttle it to just a dribble - enough that you can drink and keep up basic hygiene, but nothing else). That has led to people being advised that if you can't pay all your bills, your water bill if the one to miss. --Tango (talk) 19:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The short of it: depends on what bills and what jurisdiction. If you get more specific, someone may be able to give you a more meaningful answer. - Jmabel | Talk 20:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're not paying on secured debt (home loans, car loans, etc.), the creditor can go to court and get possesion of the asset securing the debt, which they will then sell to pay off the debt. --Carnildo (talk) 22:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In Nunavut they can't shut the electricty off in the winter but they can throttle it back, no TV etc. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

How do you throttle an electricity supply? Make it trip if they draw more than a small amount of current? I would expect electric heating to use such a large portion of the supply that making it so you can heat your house but not watch TV would be difficult. --Tango (talk) 16:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's possible. Without entering your home and messing with the wiring of your house (which I'm pretty sure they won't be allowed to do) - limiting the current won't help because the heating system uses WAY more power than (say) a small TV - they couldn't adjust it accurately enough to make that work. SteveBaker (talk) 20:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

First, they actually might be allowed to do things inside a house in such a situation. Second, don't assume from what the poster said that we're talking about electric heat. Electricity in Nunavut is generated pretty much exclusively by fossil fuel, since people are so spread out that hydroelectric or nuclear plants wouldn't make sense, and people could burn that fuel just as easily and more efficienty in their own homes. But they still need electricity to run their heating systems, both for thermostatic control and things like blowers or water pumps. With long winter nights, continuous night in midwinter in some places, it would make sense to require people to be allowed some small amount of electric light, too. --Anonymous, 22:45 UTC, October 24, 2008.

Maybe the electric supply to heaters is on a different meter? 19:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous is correct, we don't use direct electricty to heat our houses or our water. Over the past few years the monthly electricity bill has climbed to $200 for my place and I know that there are others who think if it's under $500 a month they are lucky, so using an electric heaters are out of the question. Here's the relevent document from Qulliq Energy (search for "Terms and Conditions of Service Delivery") it's section 8.2 on page 41. The CBC reported on the same thing in Manitoba. In other words you can run the fan on a forced-air system or the glycol pump on a boiler system but not too much else. This I assume is what they are talking about but I'm not sure because we are lacking a Load limiter article. By the way, the hot water, the forced-air/boiler systems all use fuel oil. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 06:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Northland Steamship Company

Question/request moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships - Jmabel | Talk 06:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Planes

Am I right in saying that most (if not all) of these planes are fake (heavily photoshopped). Thanks 92.5.107.9 (talk) 21:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Entirely fake. Good, though. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Are they all fake? Anyway, thanks. 92.5.107.9 (talk) 21:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Not all of them. The "Boeing Dreamliner" (about 27 seconds in) looks like a repaint of the Boeing 747 Large Cargo Freighter. Likewise, the Delta triple-decker (43 seconds) looks like a repaint of somebody's outsize-cargo carrier. --Carnildo (talk) 22:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I think your right about the Dreamliner, that looked real to me. The triple-decker looks like a photoshopped double-decker. The flying wings seem real to me, and so does that silver Hawaiian...but I don't really know.92.5.107.9 (talk) 22:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The triple decker is definitely a photoshop. The airbridges to the highest & middle decks would interfere with each other. Note the door spacing between the lower and middle deck. I acknowledge the dreamlifter similarity, but why label a dreamlifter a dreamliner? Where is the rear hinge? I don't buy it. I cannot find the flying wing on List of flying wing aircraft. And I equally don't buy the 10 engined Hawaiian thing. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:14, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

"Dreamliner" is a marketing name for the Boeing 787, the aircraft whose parts the 747 LCF was constructed to transport. If you look closely at the picture in the video, you can see the fin actually reads "Dreamliner Express", not just Dreamliner. I must admit I can't find another photo of the LCF in that Boeing Corporate paintscheme, so it's possible that it's a real photograph with a fake livery applied. FiggyBee (talk) 12:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The flying wings still look real to me, but it looks as if someone has digitally added those engines on the back. It also looks like they have just added extra engines to the Hawaiian aswell. 92.0.49.113 (talk) 00:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The Dreamlifter is the only real aircraft in there. The others are photo manipulations of real aircraft, except the giant BWBs which are completely fictitious. FiggyBee (talk) 06:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's worth noting that some of those little stubby ones that look so amusing are not too different from some experimental planes (though the size is different). I've always thought the XF-85 Goblin was pretty funny looking, almost looks photoshopped (certainly looks dangerous!). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Fly-by

How much do you think it would cost to get a fly-by from a jet plane, a dump annd burn fly-by and a Red Arrows fly-by (with red, white and blue smoke)? - not all fly-bys together, but how much would they cost seperatly?

I don't want to get any of these but I have seen them and that got me wondering what it would cost. Thanks 92.5.107.9 (talk) 22:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, the details for requesting a Red Arrows display are here, but they don't include a price. I expect it's decided on a case-by-case basis depending on exactly what is required. --Tango (talk) 22:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I looked In the FAQ and I couldn't find a price. Also, does anyone know why the Red Arrows aren't permitted to do a fly-by for a wedding or funeral. That seems kind of wierd to me.92.5.107.9 (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

My guess is that they would just get far too many requests. --Tango (talk) 22:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks92.0.49.113 (talk) 00:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You can get a fly-by for free for special occasions such as social events, fundraisings, etc, you have to apply a long time in advance and if you're lucky enough to be close to their location at the time they'll go woosh for you. 190.244.186.234 (talk) 01:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

October 24

tap beer

How long does beer in a tap stay good, before going flat or getting stale? If a bar has a lot of beers on tap or has a slow week or something, that beer is just sitting there for a long time, does it go bad and they have to dump it out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.8.100.50 (talk) 00:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A week, according to [5] FiggyBee (talk) 07:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Also with real ales, you may have to throw away the first pint each day, as it goes stale in the line. [6]. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, real ales last about a week once tapped (give or take what's in the lines as has been said). Lagers last forever since there's nothing the slightest bit natural about them! (Although that may just be that I think they taste disgusting to start with so can't taste the difference! I'm pretty sure they last longer than real ales, though.) Old barman's trick: If your real ale goes flat, poor half a pint of lemonade into the barrel and it's nice and fizzy again (technically, you're in violation of several laws, but, meh)! --Tango (talk) 11:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

That "lemonade" would be a carbonated soft drink like 7-UP and not a fruit drink made of lemon juice and sugar and water, correct? Edison (talk) 15:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Correct. Is the traditional still drink still the main use of the word in the US? In the UK, we'd call that "traditional lemonade" or something to distinguish it. It's the same lemonade as is used in shandy, so mixing it with beer isn't that strange. --Tango (talk) 16:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's the exclusive use. In the States if you say lemonade when you mean Sprite, you will simply not be understood. Lemonade is lemon juice, water, and sugar. (An excellent variation is to substitute limes and leave the sugar out; if you have good limes they're just sweet enough by themselves.) --Trovatore (talk) 19:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

So what do you call drinks like Sprite? --Tango (talk) 19:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I call them an abomination. --Trovatore (talk) 19:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:) And those in the US that drink them? --Tango (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In general, "soda" or "pop" or "soda pop" or "soft drinks". There's no special name for the lemon-flavored ones. --Trovatore (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/308-the-pop-vs-soda-map/ —Tamfang (talk) 01:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Curiously, in German the cognate of "lemonade" is used for all types of soda pop whether lemon-flavored or not. If you go into a bar or whatever in Germany and have a Coca-Cola, you are likely go get a bill that shows it as "Limonade". --Anonymous, 18:16 UTC, October 26, 2008.

Tango's crack about lager reminds me of a bit in Red Dwarf: "The advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off it tastes just the same as when it's fresh. Plus it lasts forever, because no bugger 'll drink it." —Tamfang (talk) 01:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're pumping air into the beer rather than CO2, this is bad and you don't want it that way for more than a day or two. If you're taking good care of the beer, it won't deteriorate in a tapped keg any quicker than it does in an untapped keg. Friday (talk) 18:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

America and Britain

In what year did America's population grow to be bigger than Britain or England's? How about the GDP? TastyCakes (talk) 02:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Population: US overtook the UK sometime shortly before 1850, overtook England some time shortly before 1840. [7] [8] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tagishsimon (talk • contribs)

Did the movement of Irish famine refugees contribute strongly to this? Edison (talk) 15:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The movement of all the European Potato Famine refugees and the refugees from the Revolutions of 1848 as well would have contributed. Rmhermen (talk) 16:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Substantive news channel

I remember vaguely about a local news channel back in 2002 or so, probably in Illinois, which was performing an experiment to provide some less sensationalist news with substance. Did this happen or was this a figment of my imagination? --Blue387 (talk) 06:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure lots of news stations bill themselves as being less sensationalist, with more substance - was there something that made this one more believable than normal? ~ mazca ^t|c 14:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

French curves

Why are the French curves named so?

Because French men admire them so?  :-) --Scray (talk) 11:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm - that's a really good question. Our article ("French curve") on these fascinating, beautiful, (but horribly obsolete) artifacts is a bit lacking in detail! I suspect the root of the term comes from the same place as "frenching" - which is technique used to put curves into metalwork. That article says that the term relates to 'French cuffs' on garments like shirt sleeves...but that link lead only to our article on cuffs in general. Googling on 'frenching' produces a bunch of unrelated stuff. I rather suspect that there has always been a tendency to associate France with things that are generally elegant and kinda sexxy - which is odd because the French themselves generally don't. Dictionary.com says that the term dates back to 1880 to 1885 - but doesn't say where it comes from - that's annoying because I was going to guess that the term dates back to the work of the French mathematician Blaise Pascal - who did a lot of work on the 'cycloid' and other mathematical curves...perhaps relating to the shapes in a French curve instrument - but he was around in the 1600's - and dictionary.com says that the term didn't come to be used until the 1880's. Some people call them "Ships curves" - which presumably relates them to ship design going back to sailing ships and the like.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

An alternative idea is it comes from an American engineer called Thomas French. Would explain why they aren't called English curves in France :) Dmcq (talk) 13:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary places it in a list of things "of actual or attributed French origin", under a seperate heading from "French cuffs". It doesn't mention the Thomas French theory. Warofdreams talk 15:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In the 1950's, I a saw picture of a French curve where a portion of the instrument was shaped like a bathing beauty. Phil Burnstein (talk) 16:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

old postal codes USA

Between what years did the USPS use 1 digit postal codes, as in "Detroit 5, Michigan" ? I can find information on 2 digit codes (from 1948-1964), but not 1 digit codes. I am trying to date an address. 65.32.120.92 (talk) 12:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The article on ZIP code indicates the US system began in 1943 but using 2 digit postal zones. However, this (scroll down to background) which appears to be an older version of Wikipedias ZIP code page seems to indicate that 1 digit codes were in use then as well. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

And here is where the example was removed. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I am almost old enough to remember the period before zip codes. (They were introduced around the time I was born, and I can remember seeing addresses using the old system.) The old system worked as follows: Most postal addresses were specified merely by the street address and the name of the town and the state (e.g., Provincetown, Massachusetts), without any numerals following the name of the town or state. Larger cities, however, were divided into numbered postal districts. The numbering of these districts typically started with a one-digit numeral such as 1 or 2, though sometimes the lowest numerals (such as 1 and 2) were reserved for post office boxes at the central post office. However, higher one-digit numerals, such as 5 or 8, were in use for street addresses in most cities. "New York 1, N.Y." was used for street addresses on the West Side of Midtown Manhattan. Smaller cities, such as Lowell, Massachusetts, would have fewer than 10 postal districts, so the numerals for their postal districts had no more than a single digit. Only the larger cities had more than 10 postal districts, some of them specified by two-digit numerals. For example, my present location would have had an address of "Boston 16, Massachusetts", before the introduction of zip codes. When zip codes were introduced, the numerals of each city's postal district were appended to the three-digit zip code prefix specifying that city's postal zone. For example, Manhattan's main three-digit zip code prefix is "100", so "New York 1, N.Y." became "New York, NY 10001". Similarly, "Boston 16, Mass." became "Boston, MA 02116". Marco polo (talk) 19:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Red hair

People with red hair are often the target of ridicule/prejudice from people within their own race (i.e. white people). Even the media is happy to poke fun at those with red hair. But I was wondering if anything similar happened in other races. Do black or Asian people, for example, ridicule groups within their own race based on certain physical features? Iiidonkeyiii (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I must note that I am a red haired man in a mostly white nation, and I have never seen this type of ridicule, from the media or elsewhere. Blondes are another story... Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Paper Bag Party? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Ginger section

::See Colorism. Skin color discrimination among US blacks has been on the basis of the "blue vein test" as well. There were nightclubs in the US in the 20th century for African Americans where the skin color had to be light enough or they were not admitted. I have seen programs produced by Brits where people with red hair are called "ginger" or "ginger knob." Ginger I see in the supermarket is brown, not red, so this is puzzling. In the U.S. they might be called "carrot top." Carrots are closer to the color of red hair than ginger is. Edison (talk) 15:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

From what I've seen/experienced, hair texture is a similar feature inside Black American communities. And as Edison said, there is also the skin color issue.--droptone (talk) 15:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Gingerism is more of a UK issue than a U.S. one. Rmhermen (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Why do Brits see red hair as being ginger? Ginger is brown on the outside and greenish on the inside. Is there some red ginger candy or ginger drink which leads to the association? Edison (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious about this, too, but I don't think it's just British. Also I suppose it's not really any further from the truth than "red". There was a bit in Stranger in a Strange Land where Michael is making notes to himself about things like the color that is called red when applied to hair, though it's not called red for anything other than hair. --Trovatore (talk) 21:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Ginger-haired men (rarely women) in Australia are often nick-named "Blue" or "Bluey", for reasons I've never fathomed. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Possibly some association like ginger -> spicy -> hot -> red. No idea where bluey would come into it. Rmhermen (talk) 21:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

"Bluey" is because blue is the opposite of red. --Carnildo (talk) 22:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Colors have opposites? Plasticup ^T/C 00:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

See complementary colour and irony. jnestorius^(talk) 00:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I recently had occasion to explain to someone in Slovenia that English-speakers do not consider "red" hair to be intermediate between blond and brown. She had some surprising notions of what's "red", too. —Tamfang (talk) 01:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

There are two snacks in the UK which contain ginger and are a reddish brown. One is Brandy snaps and the other is Ginger Nut Biscuits Nut is slang for head in the UK and we would call red haired kids 'Ginger Nut' at school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.215.48 (talk) 17:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

In young Japanese culture, there are a number of things you could be ridiculed for. Most of them exist in the west, but for some reason they seem to be a lot more "sensitive" here, perhaps because they are so "fashion concious" here, i.e. self-esteem is a big problem. Rarity is also a big factor, as is with the hair things, since Japanese tend to have relatively less visible facial/body hair. Some of the most common are: curly hair (tempa), exessive hair on your shins (sune-ge), big-face (it's related to the ratio of heads:body-length, so somebody with a shorter body (relative to the size of their head) will be known as a big-face), and of course, small eyes. 124.154.253.49 (talk) 23:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• Using the term "ginger" for red hair- The term has been around for a long time. It was previously not usually applied to anyone who has dark red hair, that might better be described as "red" or "chestnut". The term "ginger" implied that the colour was a light reddish shade. It is used not only for human hair but for chestnut horses that are a palish colour and for cats as well. See picture at [9]

Ginger kitten

• Explanation- In the 19th century, very few English people would have seen ginger in its natural state. When ginger arrived in England, it came in a porcelain jar and was in a rich syrup. The preservation made the ginger much more of a brownish-orange colour, much closer to the human hair colouring usually described in that way than a carrot, which is bright orange.
• Concerning the Australian nick-name- It was characteristic of Australian nicknames that they were the opposite of reality. So a man with red hair is "Blue", a man with a bald head is "Curly", a very large man is "Tiny", a very tall man is "Shorty", an Aboriginal man is "Snowy" a bloke from Manly is called "Bondi" and the toughest cop in town is called "Baby Face".

I just Googled ginger horses. To my surprise, the notion of "ginger" being a particular colour designation seems remarkably to have been lost to common knowledge, probably because people no longer have jars of preserved ginger and are more likely to see it covered with chocolate, candied with sugar or raw. The horses that I found that were actually described or named "Ginger" were mostly chestnut, but included several Palominos, several duns (buckskins), a splendid bay horse with a dark red coat and black mane that would never have been called Ginger! There was also a shiny dark brown horse! When I was a child in the 50s, I knew a couple of "Ginger"s. They took their name from the mare in Anna Sewell's Black Beauty

Amandajm (talk) 10:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

International trade

Why in International trades we are using currencies like USD, or Euro? I think US, or Europe benefits from this. Do they really deserve this? Who sets this standards? Isn't possible to use something like gold for this purpose? --V4vijayakumar (talk) 16:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In our article, or in real life? People trade with the currency units that are convenient to whoever has the whip hand in the transaction. That being the case, it's more conventional to trade using a currency than gold. You are right about advantage; I'm sure we have an article - petrodollar, perhaps - which notes the advantage the US gets from oil being priced in US dollars rather than, say, Euros. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The price of gold itself fluctuates, so there isn't a lot of point in specifying monetary amounts in it. Doing so would be less understandable to our readers than USD. It's conventional to express them in terms of a widely used currency, with USD being the most widely used and the Euro being a reasonable substitute. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The price of gold doesn't fluctuate any more than the price of any given currency. It's best for us to report values in the currency that was actually used in the trade (with conversions in brackets if appropriate). --Tango (talk) 21:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

less understandable? I don't think so. Check the following usages; Ipod 10 grams of gold, Tata nano 100 grams of gold, ..etc

Tango, that actually turns out not to be the case. Gold prices fluctuate a lot more than currency values do. For example, the price of gold was $692/oz. this morning; it was $918/oz. on 10 October. The value of the dollar has been considerably more constant during those two weeks. To the OP, gold simply isn't what you seem to think it is, not anymore. It's now just a commodity, and using one of the world's reserve currencies to complete (or at least report on) a transaction is more convenient for everyone involved. Darkspots (talk) 08:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Gold has just had its biggest weekly drop in 28 years[10], so that's hardly a fair test! Outside of a major economic crisis, gold is pretty stable. --Tango (talk) 14:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Gold is a commodity with prices that fluctuate wildly, as the last week has shown. Currencies (in well-run economies) are managed so that changes in their purchasing power (inflation or deflation) happen slowly. I don't walk into Starbucks in the morning and get told that the dollar lost 13% of its real value in a week, so my coffee costs an extra sixty cents today. Gold from 1979 to 1982 lost well over half its value, expressed in dollars, from over $700 an ounce to less than $300. My point is that the gold standard is well behind us. The deflationary effect of rising gold prices in the Great Depression is the reason the United States abandoned the gold standard—deflation generally creates vast uncertainty in an economy (gold prices were only one of the causes of deflation in the Great Depression). Darkspots (talk) 15:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure. If gold is used instead of USD / Euro in international trade, then its price will not fluctuate, because there will always be heavy demand. --V4vijayakumar (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference between purchasing power and exchange rates. While the local purchasing power of a major currency is pretty stable, the nominal rate of the exchange between major currencies does fluctuate quite significantly. I believe it generally fluctuates on a similar scale to the gold price in dollars. The last week or so has been exceptional - gold has bad weeks just as any currency does. I'm sure the US dollar has had the odd week in the past 28 years where it's lost comparable amounts of value to what gold has lost recently. --Tango (talk) 16:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

←One more time: Gold is a commodity, which is to say that it really exists and there is a finite quantity of it, unlike money. The reason that every nation abandoned the gold standard is that it was unacceptable to them to have their currency be subject to fluctuations in the price of gold and the gold supply. They found that they needed the ability to regulate their money supply, not leave it up to however much gold got mined that year. See Great Depression#Gold standard. Every major currency abandoned the gold standard in the Great Depression; there was a direct correlation between when a nation abandoned the gold standard and when it recovered from the Depression. See also Causes of the Great Depression#Gold Standard. Basically, tying currencies to the price of gold caused deflation. This belief that gold has a fixed purchasing power and just fluctuates like any other currency has some intuitive appeal but historically proved to be untrue and also a Very Bad Idea. When the value of currency in people's pockets declines with the price of gold, they stop borrowing money, and the economy goes off the rails. This crisis seems bad? Darkspots (talk) 02:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Cross country

What is the medical criteria for selecting a good long distance runner? I understand that one needs to have a low pulse rate. Apart from that, what else should be considered, height, build, etc sumal (talk) 17:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The low pulse rate comes from being very fit rather than being a pre-disposition to being a good runner, I believe. --Tango (talk) 17:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Mostly from being fit, but surely there is variance at one's resting heart rate apart from fitness level. Also important for any sort of physical activity is lung capacity, which also surely varies both by predisposition and as a result of training.--droptone (talk) 18:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I imagine there is an genetic factor on resting heart rate, but does it make you a better runner? --Tango (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Stamina is also important. This can be built with training, but there is need for a long-term energy supply rather than the explosive release needed for the shorter distances. Some are more suited to the one or the other.86.219.39.92 (talk) 15:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)DT

Llanelli v New Zealand 1972

Hi does anyone out there have a programme for this match which llanelli won 9 - 3? I need to find out the Llanelli team from this famous match! Thanks. Smartfreddy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smartfreddy (talk • contribs) 18:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Which actual sport are you talking about? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

"Day the pubs ran dry" from BBC has the lineups. It's rugby union, Jack. Oz used to be good at it...so did Wales. jnestorius^(talk) 00:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Odd musical instrument

Need information on eggplant shaped object, with handle which appears to have a slot to blow in. Painted red with flower petals painted on each end. There are 10 numbered holes for air to come out of. There are 2 round seals on the bottom, one superimposed over the other. I can't read what they say. There is also an oval shaped seal that says in part Made in Austria (in English). Unknown material, not cast iron but too heavy to be ceramic.18:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanjen (talk • contribs)

Ocarina? FiggyBee (talk) 18:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah - I agree - that's an ocarina alright. SteveBaker (talk) 20:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I seem to recall that ocarinas were used for the sound of the Seven Dwarves pipe organ in the Snow White Disney cartoon: [11]. Edison (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

about Frankie Valli and the 4 Seasons

I have a video of FV and the 4S in concert in Chicago 1982. There is a Guy he calls GUIDO, who seems to be really funny and good. I have not see him before or after (the next Concert video I have is from 1992 in Atlantic City) Who is Guido, and what has become of him? I'm really interested to find out. Thank you very much Kary Silva Palm Desert, CA —Preceding unsigned comment added by LoveFValli (talk • contribs) 20:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Any chance you're talking about Father Guido Sarducci? He used to appear on SNL, too. --Scray (talk) 03:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Speaking to a person via a translator etiquette

Okay, here's an etiquette question for you Mr./Ms. Manners types out there ...

Say you're speaking to someone via an interpreter. Assume also that we're in the U.S. or U.K. where it's considered polite to make eye contact with the person you're speaking to edit: or in any other county or culture where this rule of etiquette applies, I guess. When you're speaking to the person, I'd think it would be considered polite to make eye contact with that person. When the person responds, is it then polite to continue eye contact with the person being interpreted, or with the person doing the interpreting? I've always felt a little funny about this situation, because it would seem to me that you should make eye contact with the person being interpreted basically at all times (since s/he's the person you're communicating with), btut that leaves the interpreter out of all eye contact, which seems kind of rude to me on some level. Any thoughts? Dgcopter (talk) 21:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a good question. A related question I've never been sure about is whether you should refer to the person you are communicating with in the 2nd or 3rd person. --Tango (talk) 22:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

An interpreter (for a deaf person using a special telephone) once told me to use second person. I guess that simplifies things a bit for the interpreter, reducing the number of mental conversions required. —Tamfang (talk) 01:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO, you maintain eye contact with the person you are communicating with, not the interpreter. The interpreter should be used to not being looked at (although you can glance at him/her occasionally) and you don't want to miss any part of the body language of the speaker. Also speak normally, i.e. address the other party in the 2nd person. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In the UN the interpreters aren't even visible to the speaking parties. The speaker addresses his crowd directly, the crowd looks back at him, and the interpreters do their business out of sight. Plasticup ^T/C 00:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Just a personal opinion: I think one should entirely focus on the other person when speaking to them, but when hearing their words via the interpreter, you should pay attention to both. When someone speaks to you in the same language, you focus on them, obviously, but the fact of the matter is that through an interpreter, you are getting the intent of the language from your opposite but the language itself from the interpreter. Not acknowledging this fact with your body language seems wrong to me, as if you only cared about what the other person looks like as opposed to what they're saying. But I'm not Miss Mannersl maybe there already are set guidelines one would follow. zafiroblue05 | Talk 00:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, it's easier to hear and understand someone's words if you are looking at them and can see their lips move, so especially if there is a lot of background noise or the interpreter speaks with a strong and unfamiliar accent, you should look at the interpreter when they speak so you don't mishear. --Tango (talk) 12:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

That's correct. Look at the person who is speaking to you currently (interpreter or the other person), but address the person as you would normally, unless you're addressing something specifically to the interpreter. Steewi (talk) 02:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you help me?

I'm a white male in Britain. Recently, a girl from India who's about 4 years younger than me asked for my number. She's a nice girl, but I'm not sure about the cultural and social aspects of being with an Indian girl. She is sweet, studious and intelligent, which I appreciate, but I'm not sure if I'm attracted to her (probably would be after a few drinks), and I fear that the cultural aspects are too large. Can you help me?--Holy Roman Empire (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Easy, since you are not attracted to her, don't give her your number. Problem solved. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

O RLY?--Holy Roman Empire (talk) 22:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Are you sure you are not looking for an excuse? If you need a few drinks inside you to fancy her then the nicest thing you could do is simply tell her straight "I'm not interested". Looking for problems to do with culture and so on is a bit of a cop out really. Theresa Knott | The otter sank

She's probably the best person to help you answer those questions - if you're interested in possibly pursuing a relationship, go on a date with her and talk to her. That's the point of dates. --Tango (talk) 22:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking at this user's contributions list, Looks like we're being trolled. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 22:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I would assume good faith - the contributions may be a little misguided but they don't look like trolling to me. --Tango (talk) 12:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a testimony the the OP's belief in Beer goggles. Edison (talk) 01:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Sand hoppers

How do sand hoppers avoid drowning when the tide comes in?

Perhaps they "crawl or hop … landward if doused with sea water"? Deor (talk) 01:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Re:Oil Prices

Following on from the earlier question about oil-production v oil prices; and also following today's announcement from OPEC that oil production is about to be reduced by 1.5 million barrels per day (about 5%) as from 1st November, is it too simplistic a question to ask whether OPEC have considered that most people and businesses in these recessionary times will surely be planning on consuming less oil than before, thus negating OPEC's efforts to shore up its defences against world economics (in fact, making the situation worse for themselves in the long run), viz, Senator Obama's recent speech in which he announced that the USA will aggressively pursue alternative energy solutions, and Mr. Sarkozi making available millions of Euros to the French Auto Research Establishments for the development of an oil-free engine within the foreseeable future. In short, doesn't OPEC envisage a situation soon when their oil will be an unwanted and inedible lake of sludge beneath their arid sand? 92.23.185.136 (talk) 22:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, they know that their oil resources are limited and want to bilk them for all they are worth. They don't want to waste their oil by selling it cheaply during a recession - they would rather keep the price high and wait things out. By the time alternative fuels become widely available their fossil fuels will be long gone, so the super-long term planning that you are thinking of never comes into play. Plasticup ^T/C 00:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course they are aware of that! That's why Saudi Arabia opposes such a cut (its leaders were mostly educated in the US too). However, they are a lot smarter than we are. They correctly calculate that it will take decades just to make a transition, and far more for a change in public will to occur. As usual, talks of alternate energy are cheap.

Think about the past 5 years: how much have OPEC countries benefited from cutting production? (Hint: the answer is a Lot, with a capital "L"). And how much has increasing prices cut demand and changed public will? (Hint: demand has increased - only the increase in increase has abated; and public will is determined a lot more by convenience in first world nations than we will ever admit).

That said, if they push it too far (e.g., $8/gallon), they really will hurt demand. But by then, they're already making $8/gallon, so maybe it's a net positive. Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok - I accept all of that - and thanks for your comments above BUT, as OPEC oil production is withheld, and world prices and inflation inflate - and the USA changes its attitude to drilling in the Gulf and in Alaska where it is well known that VAST oil deposits exist - and as the UK and other oil producing nations seek out hitherto unaffordable fields for exploitation - and as alternative energy sources ARE increasingly developed to the point of consumer viability (wind and wave and coal power per se) - and as general depression-economy reductions in oil consumption progress - SURELY, the OPEC countries must see that their actions NOW are alienating the very countries on which they will in future be relying for food and other non-OPEC-indigenous commodities. Or will the sheiks, princes, and other potentates simply decamp to greener pastures with their oil-zillions intact, leaving their countrymen wandering in the deserts as they did prior to the discovery of oil? 92.23.28.9 (talk) 13:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Remember oil is a 'finite' resource. It's ultimately going to disappear. I've yet to see anyone seriously suggest that oil is going to be worthless in the near to medium term. So ultimately they want to keep the prices as high as the market can sustain. And prices have fallen a lot recently so it makes sense they want to raise prices. And OPEC is hardly a new thing. They've existed for quite a while and have been relatively successful. There is no reason to presume they're going to suddenly totally collapse. And the fact is many OPEC countries are already trying to developed their economies. For example the Burj Dubai and other such developments, while perhaps a sign of extravagance, are also part of an attempt to develop their respective countries into business centres. Of course it's anyone's guess as whether they'd succeed. But it also clearly makes most sense for them to make as most money over as most time from their oil as possible. BTW, even if wind and wave are starting to become viable, most countries are still a long, long way away from getting a large percentage of it's power from wind and water. Remember too that there is a big world out there besides the US. Demand from the developing world is (or was) increasing at a phenomonal rate. Nil Einne (talk) 18:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, you appear to be under a serious misimpression about oil resources in Alaska. Take a look at Arctic Refuge drilling controversy. The vast majority are unproven and even with the wildest estimate it is actually only a drop in the ocean. It will take to at least 2018 before anything starts to come out and in 2030 (which is close to the peak production period) it will be between 0.4 - 1.2 % of the world's consumption. In conclusion, it's going to have virtually no effect on the world's prices. This doesn't answer whether or not the US should drill there, but it does mean that Alaskan oil is barely a blip on the radar for OPEC. P.S. Also Oil reserves in the United States Nil Einne (talk) 20:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Whilst oil is a major player in Middle East economies it isn't the only. OPEC is a cartel of sellers working together, it doesn't represent the interests of the economies of the nations of its members, though its activity and action will bolster their economies (some to a larger degree of others). Additionally it is unlikely that nations will be 'petty' in the selling/trade long in the future once the oil has gone. The middle east will have to reshape its economy as the oil age ends (so will every economy), and what services is provides on a global scale are uncertain. Perhaps with its expertise in fuel and power management and its geography/climate it may be well placed to take advantage of future developments in renewable energies? OPEC will seek to control its output to ensure maximum profitability over the maximum time period possible. There are technical limiations to its productions, and there is little benefit in purposefully supplying far more than demand requires (as noted it'll only cheapen its price), so they will constantly alter production to try maintain maximum profitability (and to do so will have to take into account political issues/standing etc.) ny156uk (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

It's important to mention that we cannot POSSIBLY run out of oil. Sure - it's a finite resource - but the fact is that if we continue to dig it up and burn it - the planet will die from global warming...with us along with it. This will happen LONG before we've gotten the last drop out of the last oil well! Failure to understand the very simple math involved here is skewing all sorts of policies and decisions all around the world. SteveBaker (talk) 21:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

OK Steve - point taken, along with those earlier responses - I am certainly learning a lot here - so, following your analogy that the world will end before oil supplies - which country, in your informed opinion, will be the richest in dollar/gold/tradeables/stocks/shares/securities etc., when we all fall off the planet? 92.23.28.9 (talk) 22:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

More likely than the world ending due to global warming is that we'll eventually stop using oil (or use it so slowly that there is no real danger of it running out in the foreseeable future). Note the "if" in Steve's reply. In that case, it's impossible to predict the economic situation at the end of the world because we don't know how the world will end or when (if it's in a couple of billion years when the sun starts to die, then chances are good we wouldn't recognise civilisation if it even exists). --Tango (talk) 23:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Right - there are two possible outcomes - we all die before we can burn the last drop - or we stop burning the stuff of our own free will before we've gotten to the last drop. Either way, we won't "run out" of oil. I have no clue which country would be the richest if we killed the planet - I'm not an economist. But you don't have to be an economist to calculate the amount of CO2 produced by burning all of the known oil reserves from around the world - and the answer is clearly "too much". The means by which money would circulate between countries in the fateful final decade is impossible to predict. When humanity would be able to clearly see looming collapse of ecosystems and our inability to produce enough food - even in the US and Europe, money circulation would happen in entirely new ways as some countries would be inundated by rising sea levels - others would perhaps gain better agriculture for a while as formerly ice-covered areas would become rich farmland. I have no clue how you'd figure out which countries would have the most money at the end...but it would hardly matter. SteveBaker (talk) 05:31, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

October 25

Cheap international phone calls

Hi there. A friend recently pointed out a website with information on cheap international phone calls. Great you might think, don't question it, just use it! What is really bugging me is, how do they make a profit from it? They are surely not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Anyone know how they make their money? PS: I don't work for this website, just curious and a teensy weensy bit worried I'm getting taken for a sucker. Titch Tucker (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

In Poland an international phone call using something like this can cost five times more than VoIP connection to a phone in other country. Only part of this is paid to a telecom for paid call. The rest is enough profit for such services. MTM (talk) 20:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

International calls on the traditional telecom networks are priced far above the actual cost of service. This is because the terminating carrier can basically charge whatever it wants (whereas in-country rates are often regulated or subject to competition). Actually carrying a call over a long distance is quite cheap, since many hundreds of voice calls can be sent over an optical fibre at one time. All the cheap-call people have to do is set up a local phone number, put it on the internet, and send it to a local phone exchange at the other end. You could literally do it yourself with two phones, two computers and two internet connections - how much would that cost? If people paid you $0.01/minute and used the line 1/2 the time, your income would be $216/month for each line. Scale up from there. Franamax (talk) 20:52, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I knew I was being ripped off but you have opened my eyes to how much I was being ripped off. Thanks for your replies, I shall now sit down and calculate the amount of money they have made from me over my lifetime. Well, maybe not, I don't want to go into a fit of depression. :) Titch Tucker (talk) 23:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

And to qualify my post above a little bit: a telecom company also costs more because they guarantee you an open, real-time circuit while you make the call, often using the ATM protocol (among others) to provide a smooth service that works exactly as though you had a copper wire connecting your phones. Cheap-call services may or may not provide equivalent call quality. Skype is free (for now) when used computer-to-computer, but you have to put up with echoes, dropouts, distortion, etc. when the service is busy. And in my scenario above with 2 computers, other customers would get pissed off when someone else tied up the line yakking for 2 hours to their aunt in Botsylvania. Telco's offer a guaranteed open circuit to the called party for the length of your call, which obviously will cost more than "as-available" service. Bottom line: if you're instructing someone in ongoing open-heart surgery, use a telco; if you're catching up on the latest gossip in Transeurona from a notorious gabber, use the cheapest service you can find and be happy if your call gets dropped. Just be careful about giving out your credit-card number online! Franamax (talk) 23:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

My credit card is safely tucked away, theres a credit crunch on you know. Titch Tucker (talk) 00:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

FWIW I use Telediscount all the time. The only problem I have encountered is that it will sometimes tell you that the number you want is engaged when it is only their lines that are engaged; you can still get through using your usual carrier. From some parts of the UK, demand seems to exceed supply and the Telediscount network is "engaged" most of the time.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

fake airplane

Did the aborigines build a fake airplane outside the Port Moresby airport to attract other airplanesBussyg (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you thinking about Cargo cults? As our article says: "Famous examples of cargo cult activity include the setting up of mock airstrips, airports, offices, and dining rooms, as well as the fetishization and attempted construction of Western goods, such as radios made of coconuts and straw. Believers may stage "drills" and "marches" with sticks for rifles and use military-style insignia and national insignia painted on their bodies to make them look like soldiers, thereby treating the activities of Western military personnel as rituals to be performed for the purpose of attracting the cargo. The cult members built these items and "facilities" in the belief that the structures would attract cargo intended to be sent to them.". Cargo cults such as this did appear in New Guinea - so it's possible it happened at Port Moresby - but I didn't see any specific mention of cults appearing at that specific place. SteveBaker (talk) 20:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

(after e/c) That is one of the things that happened with cargo cults. Here's a video. Franamax (talk) 21:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

If I had huge wealth, I would have rented an old DC-3 and hired it to fly to such a cargo cult airport and deliver a load of every luxury the cargo cultists dreamed of, just so they could say "SEE? WE WERE RIGHT!" to the non-believers. Edison (talk) 01:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

You still could: John Frum. Rmhermen (talk) 03:33, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

And you could probably trade those "luxuries" for curiosities and rarities that were everyday items for those people. Your $1000 Hermes purse for my hand-carved jade amulet worth $1200 at Sotheby's. Then you go buy another purse and I carve another piece of jade. Trade pretty much always works out. Franamax (talk) 11:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Would It Be Possible to Buy Dichroic Lenses That Filter Out All Colors?

Would it be possible to buy dichroic lenses that filter out all colors? So that If you were to put them into glasses, or goggles, you would see in black and white? Is there anywhere I might be able to purchase lenses like this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.237.183 (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

You can purchase spectacles which reduce light intensity, such that only your night vision (see rod cell and cone cell) reacts. An ophtalmolgist won´t prescribe such glasses under normal circumstances. If you suffer from photo allergy, please see your medical advisor. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I wan't to purchase the lenses purely for the sake of having goggles that let me see in black and white, please don't assume things, because you didn't answer any of my questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.237.183 (talk) 23:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

We're all volunteers here, nasty responses won't get you closer to the information you seek... Franamax (talk) 23:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I have seen viewing filters less sophisticated than the series of dichroic filters you describe. for black and white photographers to use when viewing a scene to get an idea what it would look like in B&W. The best I recall, it might have been light yellow, which limited the scene to brightness variations in basically one hue. White is the combination of all colors, or of complementary colors, or of a set of primaries, in proper amounts, and it is not some color that is left when light of all other wavelengths has been filtered out. The latter is "black." An old Kodak publication "Color as seen and photographed"[12]provides a great explanation of color filters and vision. Ansel Adams recommended [13] a Wratten #90 viewing filter when shooting black and white. It definitely does not make the scene look black and white. See also [14] which says a Tiffen #1 B&W Viewing filter does the same thing. Does that answer the question? Edison (talk) 01:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Conversion of a color image to a grey-scale image is a non-linear transformation. This implies that there is no passive optical component that can perform this transform.You will nee an active component such as a video camera. theoreticlly, if you simply reduce the amount of light sufficiently, (e.g., with a welder's helmet) your day vision will stop working and your night vision will kick in--this is a natural non-linear effect. In practice, I doubt this will work. -Arch dude (talk) 01:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Use night vision goggles with a grey filter to cut down the light coming in. Or a camera connected to a PC with the colour changed to greyscale. Dmcq (talk) 11:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Using night vision goggles (even with a super-dark filter) doesn't get you a proper monochromatic view. The goggles are almost completely insensitive to blue light - but super-sensitive to red and infra-red - so pretty much what you'd see would be just the red part of the spectrum...not at all a true monochromatic view. Basically - there is no possibility whatever of some kind of passive device producing a true monochrome image - as others have said, converting color to monochrome is a non-linear operation - so filters flat out cannot possibly work. The idea of blocking out so much of the light as to trick your vision system into becoming dark-adapted and seeing only monochrome would probably work - but isn't very practical because you'd have to sit around in the dark for 30 minutes every time you put them on - and you'd need different densities of filter for full sunlight, shadows, twilight, etc. So you're left with video cameras and displays - that's the only solution I can imagine. SteveBaker (talk) 18:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I've thought of this before too.(Ever since seeing 'They Live'.) I would love to somehow have "monochrome glasses", there's just no way of doing it. Color is a property of light, not a component of light. Light without color is like matter without temperature. It's a contradiction. What you're really trying to do is to change the color of the light hitting your eye. For instance, a bright red light you want to appear as a bright gray light, which means adding blue and green light somehow. A passive filter isn't likely to do this.

Sadly, I don't think you're going to come up with a solution that doesn't involve microchips and cameras. APL (talk) 20:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Night vision is not what a black and white image of a scene would look like, first because there is little sensitivity in the central foveal region, and second because the brightness balance of reds versus blues is vastly shifted form a normal black and white image. See Purkinje effect. Edison (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much, I think having one hue would work just as well as monochrome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.237.183 (talk) 22:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Then all you need is a piece of green-tinted (or red-tinted or blue-tinted) plastic. That's going to filter out all of the other colors - resulting in a monochromatic view of the world. NOTE: Monochromatic means 'having one color' - it's not the same thing as 'black and white'. Our eyes see in three primary colors: Red, Green and Blue. To get a monochromatic view - you just need to block two out of the three colors - which is very easy. To get a true 'black and white' display of a monochromatic nature - you somehow need to make the other two 'missing' colors be the same as the one you've selected. That means that if you use a green filter to block red and blue, you somehow have to make red and blue light that's the same intensity as the green - and that's not something you can do with a 'passive' device like a filter. To get a TRUE black and white view (like a black and white photo or black and white TV) - you need to add up all of the intensities of the incoming light and use the sum of Red+Green+Blue to generate equal amounts of red, green and blue to your display. That's even harder! To do it perfectly - you should also 'weight' the intensities of red, green and blue light that you add together to match the natural sensitivities of our eyes to different colors. Hence you need about twice as much green as red and about half as much blue as red. SteveBaker (talk) 13:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

What is a "Court Originator Number" and where can I find it?

I was at fault in a motor vehicle accident a month ago. I'm taking a defensive driving course online so that I won't have points assessed against my driving record. In the registration, the driving course prompts me to enter the court name, case #, and the court originator number. I'm not sure what the court originator number is or where I can find it (I found the case # on the form the court gave me for the defensive driving program, but I see no other number there).

Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.35.8.31 (talk) 22:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

We're going to need to know where you are. It would probably be easier to phone the court, though. --Tango (talk) 23:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The IP address resolves to COLUMBIA, MISSOURI, UNITED STATES, so that's a good guess. --Tango (talk) 23:18, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I tried looking it up online and had no luck. I'll take your advice and call the court on Monday. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.35.8.31 (talk) 23:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Economic crisis

Hi. What is the actual triggering mechanism for the current economic crisis and market crash, ie. what caused/started/is responsible for it? Also, could events like this possibly be caused by something as simple as fluctuating oil prices, lack of progress etc? PS: the bot responsible for updating date headers has malfunctioned, its last edit was on the 23rd. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 23:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Original cause would be the dot com crash. Led to the Fed (US central bank) cutting interest rates to 1% as there were worries of deflation (as seen in Japan in 1990s). This meant that borrowing was cheap so it led to a housing boom in the US (similar things occurred in the UK, and Europe). Simultaneously, financial markets weren't earning much interest on lending money to the government/companies, and found that mortgages were a great way to earn good returns. So they allowed people to borrow huge amounts, thinking that housing was a one-way bet, and hence in the worst case scenario they could repossess and sell-on the house someone borrowed against.

However, all good things come to an end, and as inflation started creeping up central banks were forced to increase interest rates to slow the increase in prices. This increased the rates people had to pay on their mortgages, and many people found that they could not meet repayments. Also, it became too expensive for many people to get new mortgages. So there were many people who couldn't keep up repayments on their homes, and could sell their homes either. Banks started to make repossessions, and that was the beginning of a recession in the so-called "real economy".

On the financial side, banks who had been making big bets on mortgages (Northern Rock and Bradford&Bingley in the UK, and WaMu and Wachovia in the US) started going bust. This was bad in itself. But, what was worse was that banks began to worry about whether other banks would go bust. So they all stopped lending to each other (in the lingo: "money markets dried up"). They have also stopped wanting to lend to companies and individuals. Without being able to borrow or invest, the economy is producing less, and people are consuming less - this is basically what constitutes a recession (falling output, technically for two successive quarters). 92.4.224.251 (talk) 00:33, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I strongly recommend listening to these two podcasts from This American Life: [15] and [16], they really help to explain how this whole crisis happened. - Akamad (talk) 00:56, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I recommend those two podcasts too - they are very clear, approachable and (in Wikipedia terms) "well sourced". SteveBaker (talk) 05:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

None of this was a big problem 'til they switched on the Large Hadron Collider, then 3 days later it all went to hell. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin' :) Franamax (talk) 11:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This train wreck has been happening in slow motion. Most banks saw it coming from May 2007, but were powerless to stop it. To say that it started on any one day is misleading. I know you were being funny, but I'm just sayin' Plasticup ^T/C 17:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, 9/11 also played a part in the economic crisis. The Fed cut interest rates even more after the attacks, which just kinda led to what 92.4.224 was talking about. --71.117.41.245 (talk) 01:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

October 26

Actual Rating

Does anyone know what an actual rating for a plane is? Thanks.92.4.224.251 (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you give us some context to work with (like a link to a document where the term appears)? Are you talking about an aircraft, a flat surface, or a tool for shaving wood? FiggyBee (talk) 02:31, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I was talking about an aircraft, but I've worked it out now. Thanks anyway. 92.3.202.106 (talk) 20:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Go (the game) and Nets

When an opponent plays a net around your stones, is there any way to block it or prevent being captured?CalamusFortis 00:35, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Well, sometimes. It depends on the position, unsurprisingly. Do you have anything in mind specifically? Algebraist 03:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I was just wondering if it were possible. I suppose the person being surrounded would need another stone very close to the stone that forms the first part of the net, right? (Did that make sense?)CalamusFortis 04:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

US Combined Statistical Areas

I believe that the Portland Or/Vancouver WA CSA has been left out of the table and map of the US Combined Statistical Areas page. Thank you, <email removed to prevent spam> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.155.251 (talk) 01:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The Table of United States Combined Statistical Areas article specifically says that the "Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA MSA [does] not have a defined CSA". Is that information out of date? FiggyBee (talk) 02:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Reagan Park?

Could someone tell me where the most famous one is located? Thanks --Crate3940 (talk) 04:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

List of honors named for Ronald Reagan offers several possibilities:

• Reagan Park, Tampico (named 1985, formerly Railroad Park).
• Reagan Park, Medina, Ohio.
• Ronald Reagan Park, Diamond Bar, California.
• Ronald Reagan Park, in Gdańsk, Poland.

Google found another one in Lawrenceville, GA, another in Palestine, TX...I'm sure there are lots more. I have no idea which is the most famous through.

SteveBaker (talk) 05:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Colleges

I simply would like a list of colleges with a good philosophy dept. Filosojia X Non(Philosophia X Known) 06:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC) --Earthan Philosopher

Which country? Schools from the major anglophone countries are ranked here. Rockpocket 07:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I know from experience that Yale University is trying to rebuild its philosophy department. To do this they have hired large numbers of outstanding faculty, trying to draw students in. The offshoot being that until the department starts attracting droves of students it will enjoy a very favorable student:faculty ratio. Plasticup ^T/C 17:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

St. John's College, U.S. in Santa Fe, NM and Annapolis has the best bookstore I've ever been to. Philosophy based, teaches dead languages. Very trippy. --Moni3 (talk) 19:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, are we talking about graduate studies, or undergraduate studies? Plasticup ^T/C 20:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Astoria, Oregon

(non-question removed by User:SteveBaker)

The ref-desk is not a soapbox. If you have a question, feel free to ask it and we'll try to answer. If you want to appeal to people - you might also try using a few capital letters! SteveBaker (talk) 19:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

My Chances of Being Accepted into Cornell?

Hey everybody! I'm a student from Vancouver, Canada doing a full load of IB work. But I scored poorly on the SAT Do you guys think I can get into the Cornell College of Arts and Sciences in Early Decision? Will be applying for financial aid.

• Female
• White/Caucasian
• 17
• Blonde

• GPA: 92.9% unweighted, weighted I don't know but I'm doing IB.
• SAT I superscore: 1970 (CR 660, W 620, M 690) I know, terrible!
• SAT II: Haven't taken them yet- taking 3 in Nov 1.

• Predicted IB Marks: 42/45

• Taking currently:
• Higher Level English
• Standard Level Spanish
• Higher Level Math
• Higher Level Chemistry
• Higher Level Biology
• Standard Level Geography
• International Business (non-IB)

• GPA has steadily risen by 0.5 - 1% from freshmen to junior year.

• Extra-curriculars:
• School Yearbook- Head of Photography, Senior Editor, Chief Layout Designer
• School Newspaper- Head of Photography
• Reach for the Top- a fast-paced general trivia competition against other schools
• Grade 9 and 10 Science Fair winner at the City level
• Did various graphic and logo design for the school and sports tournaments
• Volunteered at a hospital for 54 hours during summer
• Peer tutor for school from grade 10-12
• Member of various activist groups: SAVY, Amnesty International.

• Sports:
• Varsity Girls Basketball team- Grade 9-10, local tournament MVP, assistant Captain
• Varsity Track and Field- 1500m provincials qualifier, various gold at lower level competitions
• Varsity Cross-Country- Co-captain. No prizes
• Tae Kwon Do (out of school)- 2nd degree dan black belt- 7 years

• Awards:
• Honor Roll- grades 9-12
• Science Fair winner- grade 9 and 10
• National math contest- 25th percentile and higher grade 9

Do I even have a chance at Cornell? I want to go into medicine later on. Please help!!! ITGSEETest (talk) 19:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you e-mail Cornell's Admissions Office and ask them? (I don't think they will care about your hair colour though.) Adam Bishop (talk) 19:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

While you're at it, email the track coach. If one of the sports teams really wants you they can put in a good word with the admissions office. Plasticup ^T/C 19:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, unless you are completely sold on Cornell, apply to every Ivy League school plus Stanford (and maybe Duke). They are all very competitive, and for even the best students it is a bit of a lottery, so enter many times to increase your chances. Plasticup ^T/C 20:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Just curious. Why did you think mentioning you're a blonde would be relevant to this question? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Or your "race"? Itsmejudith (talk) 21:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Many schools, Cornell included, will give an under-represented minority applicant a greater chance than an over-represented one. It's easier for African Americans to get in that it is for Asians. ITGSEETest (talk) 22:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Whites and women, making up disproportionally large portions of the application pool, both suffer discrimination in the admission process. Plasticup ^T/C 01:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It's been 20 years since I took the SAT, but if that's out of 800 maximum (I know it was in the U.S. last I heard) I wouldn't be too worried. Not everyone tests really well, and as long as your GPA and other things are good, you will defeinitely get looked at. (I don't know what the averge SAT score of a Cornell grad is.)

I agree with what others have said about applying to others, the track team, and would even see about basketball, though since you're presently in track they'll be better able to gauge your ability. The number of activities you have been in show that you're able to handle a hevy load and be a very well-rounded person.

So, while I can't say anything with certainty, I would say that they will defeinitely look at you, and you should apply for a variety of schools. A lot has to do with the luck of the draw, too, as far as how many very similar students have applied.Somebody or his brother (talk) 23:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Your grades/activities strike me as probably pretty standard for Ivy Leagues, which probably would make you a borderline case. If you write an essay which really sparkles—makes you look like a good fit without appearing to be trying too hard—you'll probably be pretty safe. If not, then it looks 50/50 to me. What you need is something to distinguish you from the other A-, lots of activities, good-but-not-stellar test score kids out there, of which there are many. Most have no personality. Not all schools care about personality, but I'm fairly sure Cornell does. Draft your essay early, run it by a LOT of people. You want it to be about as engaging as an essay in the New Yorker, if you can. ;-) (My judgment of this comes primarily from conversations with someone I know who worked for many years in admissions at a number of top-tier US schools. Not all US schools do admission this way but the Ivies generally do.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't beat yourself up over the SATs. They're certainly not everything. Also, certainly don't focus everything on Cornell. That fact is, few people will get into their absolute-number-one-no-other-option school. (Unless your last name is Rockefeller or if your family is in the Social Register.) Nor do you have to focus on all Ivies, either. That fact is, schools like Berkeley or Michigan may well be better than a school like Dartmouth or Brown. (And if you're interested in engineering, MIT and Caltech are each better than any Ivy.) So your SATs are lower than those of some Cornell applicants, that's sure, but write a very good (that is, *distinctive* - you don't have to be a great writer, just set yourself apart from others) essay and you'll have a much better chance. zafiroblue05 | Talk 02:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Doug Hall

Doug Hall was a judge on American Inventor, and on there it said that the average American home has 18 of his inventions in it. I have looked on google and have found websites that say this, but none of them say what the 18 inventions are. Does anyone know? Thanks. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 22:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds spammy. The "18 inventions in every home" claim is no longer in the article. Consider WP:AFD. Edison (talk) 03:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

That claim was actually made on the television program, although no where is there any evidence of this (that I can find) such as a list of the 18 inventions.W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 03:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

If we assumed it was correct, it's probably a chemical or chemical process. Which is not as interesting as "18 inventions" sounds at first (the light bulb! the phonograph! the motion picture camera!), but could be legitimate. Though I will note that I don't find very much obvious "Doug Hall" patents in Google Patents—certainly not 18. Which makes it a little more dubious unless he was not the primary inventor. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Since he worked for Proctor and Gamble, I'm guessing that what he 'invented' were new kinds of shampoo or cosmetics. Since he was appointed "Master Marketing Inventor" he may also have included new product packaging or something like that. If he also took the credit for innovations that were produced under his supervision it's conceivable that the average home does indeed have some high number of products he was in some way responsible for. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 18:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Time

[question and debate deleted --Anon, 05:58 UTC, October 28, 2008]

We have a rule that says: "The reference desk does not answer requests for opinions or predictions about future events. Do not start a debate; please seek an internet forum instead". This whole thread seems to be in clear breach of that. If we don't abide by our own rules, how can we reasonably expect our users to do the same? Sorry if that seems uncool, but we regularly send away users who arrive with these sorts of questions, so it seems a little unfair to be indulging one of our own. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to start a debate. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 15:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

So, putting the question in the form of a question, "Are there documented economic benefits or costs, and are there demonstrated differences in accident rates (such as school children being hit by cars while going to /from school in the dark) due to datlight savings time? Edison (talk) 18:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

October 27

Infant Mortality Rate, Under-5 Mortality Rate, and Death Rate (cont.)

I mean, what was the infant mortality, under-5 mortality rate, and death rate before the health improvements of modern times? And stop giving irrelevant answers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.166.196 (talk) 00:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

When? Where? "Before modern times" is not specific enough. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking that aswell, how do you define "modern times" and where? Sorry if this is an "irrelivant answer." W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 00:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I looked in the archives and I see you are looking for the infant mortality rate in ancient times and the Middle Ages. I also saw the hideously irrelevant answers/comments written for which I feel a duty to apologise on behalf of my fellow Wikipedia contributors.

I'm not sure how much reaserch you have done on this but this shouldn't be your first point of call (I'm not assuming is was). A quick search on google gives good results, but if you don't wish to use google there are many search engines out their that give good results (e.g. ask.com).

After a bit of quick reaserch I have found that the highest estimated percentage is about 50% death rate, although 30% is the more common figure. These figures include the high number of infants who died within days after birth from little-understood and wholly unpreventable illnesses that modern science has now overcome. I suggest you take a brief look at this, it seems very helpful. For peasants, 5% of infants died during birth with another 10-12% dying in their first month! See this

There are many other sites that offer a lot of information, these are just two I picked out, but I seriously suggest you search "infant mortality rate in the Middle Ages" in Google. There are many sites out there offering the information, but it would take me ages to sum them up for you here and provide links.

I seriously hope that was helpful, and just ask if you have any more questions. I learnt a lot in my search, so I'm happy. :) W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 01:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

What was the death rate before the health improvements of modern times? When you said 50% or 30%, did you mean under-5 mortality or infant mortality? Whichever one you mean, what about the other? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.166.196 (talk) 00:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Pissarro the Impressionist Painter

What is the name and date of painting of the Pissarro painting of a young woman which appears on the first page of the Pissarro entry; being the painting at the top of the block containing three paintings? Thank you in advance. Malcolm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.162.100.79 (talk) 02:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Pissaro has painted many young women, could it be...

• Young Woman Washing Plates
• Young Peasant Girl with Stick
• Young Woman Bathing Her Feet
• Two Young Peasant Women
• Portrait of a Young Woman
• Young Woman and Child at the Well

The titles pretty much describe what is in the paintings. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 03:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Presumably the questioner means the top painting in the article Camille Pissarro (see right). It's called "Café au Lait".

It is much more helpful with this picture, but in my defence before that I didn't know where to find the picture to find it's name (as he didn't say to go to the Camille Pissarro article), so I just named a few of the many pictures of Pissarro's with a young girl.W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 04:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Not that anyone cares about your defence, but – What did you think was meant by "the Pissarro entry"? —Tamfang (talk) 05:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I thought it might be a book or something, that's why when I googled it I came up with nothing so just listed a few of Pissaro's painting that matched the description of having a young woman. The idea that it might be a book seemed to make sense because he said "the first page". Usually if talking about an article on Wikipedia, one would write "the Pissaro article" or "Wikipedia's Pissaro article". Also it isn't hard to link to an article, so that is what I would have expected when referring to one. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Artists and thier movements

I have been reading about artists recently, but have exausted my knowlege, I would please like a list of artists and thier movements. I have read Picaso, Gaugan, Pissaro, Turner, Mattis, Surealism, immpresionism, post impresionism, cubism (not so good) Realism. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 12:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

If i might be allowed to clarify, I would like a list of art movements cronologically listed. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 12:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Art periods gives what you desire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.19.20 (talk) 12:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Cheapest way to heat water.

I am going to move my washing machine into my non-house-attached garage (UK) where there is currently no water supply or drainage but there is an electricity supply. So, I have the option to either install ONLY Cold water or Hot and Cold supply pipes. Question, and leaving the plumbing considerations to one side, given that my domestic hot water is heated by a storage-tank-free mains gas combi-boiler (meaning I only heat what I immediately need), will it be cheaper to heat the washing machine water from cold to my usual washing temp. of 60 degrees by Gas, or Electricity? Thanks. 92.23.178.75 (talk) 12:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 92.23.178.75 (talk) 12:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the efficiencies of different heating methods, but I do know it's rarely necessary to do laundry at 60deg. You'll save far more energy by washing at 40 or even 30 than you ever would be using a more efficient heating method. --Tango (talk) 13:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I have always been under the impression that you should use gas as it will be cheaper. Now this was true a couple of years ago, but the recent rises in the cost of fuel might make that belief outdated.

Also, just to repeat Tango's point, you really shouldn't wash your clothes at 60. I've never used a washing macine so I don't really know much about washing machine water temperatures, but most things (if not everything) should be able to wash at 30 to 40. Without trying to advertise, Ariel Excel can wash clothes at 15 degrees (although I don't know if you can only wash certain things at this temp.). W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 15:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know muchg about washing either... but my wife for years has only used cold water and Persil. Her results are sparkling clean.86.197.168.115 (talk) 16:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)DT

• I'll echo the answer other people gave. Washing at 30-40 degrees centigrade will give a fine results unless you've been rolling through the mud and let it dry for three weeks. What kind of washing machine do you own? I could be wrong, but I think the one in my house imports cold water and does the heating itself. - Mgm|^(talk) 17:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Certainly gas ...but: Regular washing machines do not intake warm or hot water except you have a model which is 40 years+ old. And yes, 40°C is enough if using an appropriate soap. --Scriberius (talk) 17:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC) modified --Scriberius (talk) 18:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

How would the hot water pipe (presumably buried) be insulated? I would expect a lot of lost energy in a long run of pipe, since the garage is not attached. A small tankless electric heater next to the washer with only the cold line sent to the garage seems like the best idea. Even with electric being more expensive per BTU than gas, there would likely be a saving due to not sending hot water through a long pipe. "Warm" or cold water wash is adequate for most things, but for white cotton washcloths or other things which may be hard to get clean and which I wish to sanitize, I still use hot water and chlorine bleach. Edison (talk) 18:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I know that there are grey foam tubes that are used to insulate pipes. I don't know what these are called, but they are often used to insulate hot water pipes. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 21:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd call them "insulating foam tubes" personally. A more technical term would be "foam lagging". --Tango (talk) 17:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Truck driver who likes to drive in stocking feet

I am a truck driver who likes to drive in stocking feet; is this legal to do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.147.28.1 (talk) 13:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you tell us what jurisdiction you are driving in? and how this is a language question? Dismas|^(talk) 14:48, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Weird Al Yankovic has a song like that. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

We can't answer legal questions here anyway. —Angr 19:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Who would ever know? The X-ray-equipped fashion police? Clarityfiend (talk) 19:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

If he gets stopped by the police for something else, and is in his stocking feet when they ask him to step out of the truck, he could get in additional trouble if it turns out to be illegal. At any rate, I'd consider it a bad idea, even if it's not illegal in your jurisdiction. —Angr 20:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Me too. The core question has nothing to do with socks, sockings etc. It's really about whether the driver is wearing footwear or not (e.g. shoes). I was taught to always wear shoes when driving ( I sometimes ignore this advice), but it was more a question of safety than being illegal per se. That's in my jurisdiction; the law may be different where you live. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

"a question of safety than being illegal" - why would it be less safe to drive without shoes? I would have thought it would be just as safe unless you're wearing unusually slippery socks. Bare feet can easily grip the pedals, and if you were to wear socks that couldn't grip the pedals and expected to do this often, you could get grips for the pedals. - So I don't really see a safety issue...or am I missing something?

Also if he gets stopped by the police knowing that it is illgal, he could quickly slip on some loose shoes before they even get out of their car or tell him to.W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 23:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I've driven with and without shoes, but either way feels safer than with slippers, btw. —Tamfang (talk) 01:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it depends on what type of shoes you normally wear. Sometimes, it can be a better idea to take them off and just wear socks. I once knew a Japanese girl who was short even by Japanese standards and she wore platform shoes. She had to take them off to drive.--ChokinBako (talk) 01:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

But there is a difference when it comes to women because they wear platforms (as in your picture) and high-heels. They don't drive in these shoes because it wouldn't be practical so they usually take them off in their car and put on driving shoes, that's why a woman driver at a petrol station wearing high-heels won't just get in her car and drive off(after paying), but will take 5 minutes before she pulls away. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 01:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Moved from language desk. I expect it also depends on what kind of truck you drive, and where. I'm sure a lot of sites' H&S demands that all visitors wear safety boots (or at least enclosed footwear), even if they never alight from their vehicle. FiggyBee (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't wearing shoes provide a bit of protection to your feet if you were to have an accident? I guess that would be a pretty odd reason to wear them but I suspect they would provide at least some protection. Personally I used to always drive shoe-less (and I still do if I'm wearing shoes without backs/flip-flops). I doubt there is a law requiring you wear shoes to drive, but you never know. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, this kind of is a language question - does "stocking feet" mean "bare feet" or "with stockings"? I thought the latter but everyone else seems to think the former. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I would have thought the latter to but it is just easier to answer the question as if it were about driving shoe-less. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 14:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it typical - when a person asks an unusual question which clearly and obviously contravenes the RD guidelines ( "is this legal" ) everybody and his brother bundles in to answer it with a variety of guesses. Luckily the trucker didn't ask 'is this healthy as well', otherwise we would have had censors out.

Now my guess is that there are few laws that restrict the type of footwear used by the driver of any vehicle but there are probably laws that forbid the use of any clothes or footwear that restrict the ability of the driver to properly and safely control the vehicle. This would be classed as driving without due care and attention or in a more extreme scenario, dangerous driving. (in the UK) But the final judgement would be in court as the driver defended his/her conduct and ability to control the vehicle. Richard Avery (talk) 14:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Although there are laws that say what you can't wear whilst driving, this varies from place to place. If this truck driver drives through different countries, I wouldn't suggest he do things that may be illegal in a country he drives through or the country of his destination. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 15:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

See http://tafkac.org/legal/driving.barefoot/driving_barefoot.html --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I happen to know for sure that it's legal to drive without shoes in Texas but that it's illegal in Oklahoma - so for sure it varies from state to state. SteveBaker (talk) 01:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

What's your source for that? The link offered just above your post says it's legal to drive without shoes in Oklahoma and the author claims to have written to the relevant authorities to find out. --Tango (talk) 16:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposition 2

I have a voter's guide that I got at the library but it is unclear on one thing. It says under the heading, "The way it is now", that state law makes it illegal to be cruel to animals. For example animal in enclosed areas must have shelter, food, water and room to exersise. People who break these laws my be fined or sent to jail or both.

If there are already laws in place, why is there a Proposition about farm animal cruelty?--76.176.143.54 (talk) 15:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You're not clear about the jurisdiction that Prop 2 will affect, which makes it hard to address the question. Perhaps, though, it relates to (presumably expanding) the scope of animal cruelty laws? — Lomn 15:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing its this proposition. The article explains the proposed legislation's scope. Fribbler (talk) 15:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the guess; "The way it is now" is a standard formula in California official voting guides (prepared by a neutral authority). —Tamfang (talk) 02:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Amazing that we have to guess. Californians in America behave exactly like Americans in the rest of the world: they assume that you know everything about their lives, laws, politics, history etc. --Lgriot (talk) 04:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I would guess that the proposer believes that the current laws in place don't deal with animals' welfare correctly, or aren't strong enough. Also, this proposition is about farm animal cruelty where as the laws already in place just deal with cruelty to animals in general. Maybe it is believed that farm animals experience more cruelty than other animals, and so this proposition is there to revise that section of the laws already in place.W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 15:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

positive Sci Fi

I am a Star Trek fan because it is one of the few shows or books that give a positive futuristic view of human civilization. Another might be the Dune series of books. These are different from say, Escape from New York, Terminator. what other shows or books depict the future of humanity in a positive light? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Isaac Asimov's books present a complex version of humanity's future. I wouldn't necessarily call them positive or negative, but I would highly recommend them. Maybe start with the collection I, Robot which introduces his Three Laws of Robotics. From there, the Elijah Baley series is a good jumping off point. The Foundation series is also a great read. Good luck! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Definitely read Iain Banks' Culture books. Recury (talk) 17:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ender's Game ... the three books in the series that immediately follow it (i.e., not the "Shadow Quartet", which is still kind of a bummer vision of the future, if you ask me) are kind of optimistic. Near-light speed travel, faster-than-light communications, people generally happy. Although, each race/creed seems to have gotten its own planet à la Star Trek, which always strikes me as being a bit unfortunate... Dgcopter (talk) 17:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The Culture books aren't set in humanity's future, though, if you're set on that. Algebraist 18:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Jack McDevitt's "Engines of God" series, EE "Doc" Smith's (quite old now) Lensman_ series, Peter F. Hamilton's "Pandora's Star", Doug Weller (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I seem to recall, from reading a few 15-20 years ago that a college friend loaned me, that Ben Bova tended to predict a generally positive view of the future of humanity. (I read "Voyagers" and a couple others.) He has also higly recommended the Mars Trilogy, which is complex but he said tends to be positive; I have never had the time to read it, however.Somebody or his brother (talk) 19:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I loved the scenery of RGB Mars but found the characters dull, the plot incoherent and the economics idiotic. I recommend Robinson's earlier (and shorter) Icehenge, though. —Tamfang (talk) 01:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

hm, never heard of Culture.. will go to the library tomorrow and pick them up :o 71.176.156.86 (talk) 01:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd say you're much less likely to find rampaging monsters in a random sf book than in a random sf movie. — Many of Jack Vance's works are set in a vague period where humans occupy a large mostly-peaceful region of space; the plots tend to be about crime rather than war; though, since it is a large diverse region, some settings are dystopian. — Greg Egan's newest book Incandescence has an appealing setting (I haven't seen it but his website has a story in the same setting). — Ken MacLeod's works might please you. —Tamfang (talk) 01:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that in broad strokes it's fair to say that science fiction has separate "optimistic" and "pessimistic" tradations, and that by and large (though certainly not exclusively), the authors who are more left-wing politically write more in the pessimistic one, whereas the libertarians write more in the optimistic one. (There isn't much science fiction written on the anti-libertarian right.) It's certainly not a hard-and-fast rule; Roddenberry as you note wrote generally in the optimistic tradition, whereas Niven's stories set in The State (starting with World out of Time are kind of bleak, but in my observation this is the general tendency. Of course this could be colored by what one thinks would be a good future -- I wouldn't want things to go the way of The Foundation Trilogy, so I count them as pessimistic, but it's certainly possible that Asimov thought it was something worth hoping for.

Anyway some of the best optimistic SF comes from Heinlein, Niven, and Poul Anderson. --Trovatore (talk) 01:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes – Heinlein's optimistic future: a place where dirty old author-avatar men get to have intercourse with young sex-obsessed women (who are sometimes their mothers who they've tracked down through time travel). Aside from the Freudian bits, I suppose that counts as optimistic.... :D TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

See 'Utopia' Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 05:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Engineer who design household items

What type of engineers design household items such as cups, plates and chairs? Material engineers? Acceptable (talk) 23:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say that such items are designed by industrial designers, not by any kind of engineer. FiggyBee (talk) 23:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Engineers are likely to design the factory where such items are made, but designers generally create individual products. The same relationship exists between chemists and chemical engineers; between architects and civil engineers, etc. etc. An engineer's main job is to take the designs of others and make them realized in a practical manner. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

...or game designers and software engineers/artists...yes - there is almost always a job-title split between those who design and those who arrange for production and those who actually do the producing. However, in many small organizations, the same person may bear multiple job titles - so it's actually not that uncommon for the designer and the engineer to be one and the same person...especially when what drives the design is a technical matter rather than an artistic/aesthetic matter. SteveBaker (talk) 12:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

October 28

Which African country recently implemented price controls in an attempt to control inflation?

Which African country recently implemented price controls in an attempt to control inflation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.195.250.2 (talk) 00:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say that its the same one your teacher told you about in class... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

This could be a quiz rather than homework. --Tango (talk) 01:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Start with our article on inflation and see if you can find your way to the answer. I can do it in 2 clicks. --Tango (talk) 01:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't work, incidentally - it just temporarily moves the burden from consumers to shopkeepers, who, having sold their stock at a loss, let their shops sit empty. FiggyBee (talk) 01:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Zimbabwe ftw! NByz (talk) 02:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

We don't usually give the answer to questions like this... --Tango (talk) 11:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, you would have to implement price controls on the suppliers as well, all the way down the chain. You can only do that if you control the entire chain, which means no imports. If your economy has any imports, then price controls won't work. --Tango (talk) 11:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who had been following the news anytime in the last year would probably have at least been able to *guess* Zimbabwe, simply because their inflation has been running a at a ridiculous pace for a long while. I mean, the American news media has to be covering something beside the election, don't they? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.30.221 (talk) 11:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

While we don't know if this person is American, I agree; *think* a little. World events are important so you can learn what does and doesn't work when you vote or run the country someday. I mean, even the classic comic strip about the teen culture today, Zits, has the students having to know stuff like that and actually following some world events. (Though jeremy is likely to have learned about it on YouTube. :-)Somebody or his brother (talk) 11:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Company Credit Card

Section removed; We really can't give advice on things like this. You'll need to speak to an accountant or a lawyer. FiggyBee (talk) 00:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If you can't give advice then say you can't give advice. Don't remove the question.. 71.176.156.86 (talk) 00:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually - the official guidelines for the reference desk says: "Questions that ask for medical, legal or other professional advice may be removed and replaced with a message...". So yes, we DO remove inappropriate questions. We do this because it has been clear that doing so tends to cut off exactly this kind of annoying debate and is reasonably effective in preventing people from answering the question in contravention of our clearly stated rules. If you don't want your inappropriate question deleted - don't ask it. SteveBaker (talk) 01:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Pest Control

How do I keep pidgeons off the roof of my home? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peppersmommy (talk • contribs) 00:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

BB gun?--Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You could get those little spikes you see on the top of signs and overhangs, etc. It would require a lot of them, though. --Tango (talk) 01:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You could try one of those fake owl thingies, though my experience has been that their effectiveness is fairly limited. 38.112.225.84 (talk) 01:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Flamethrower? Or a sprinkler? 71.176.156.86 (talk) 01:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You might be interested in reading Bird abatement. --Lenticel ^(talk) 03:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I cringe to see the spike thingys because just a roll of wire drawn out into loops and fixed at both ends keep pigeons off window ledges and the like without a drop of blood or lamed feet. Poor pigeons, they only "home" after all. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

obscenity

How can you be sued for selling something obscene? If hardcore pornography is perfectly legal then how can selling a poster of penises be illegal? Yeah the charges were eventually dropped in that example, but why didn't their lawyers just say "lol what, free speech. /trial" 71.176.156.86 (talk) 00:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

In what jurisdiction? Algebraist 00:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Judging by the example given, the US. Hardcore pornography is restricted in the US, for example I believe there are age restrictions on who can buy it. Selling hardcore pornography to a minor could well be illegal, so including it as part of something that could be sold to minors might be too. --Tango (talk) 01:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, it should be noted that "In the U.S." is an impossible to determine factor. The Supreme Court has ruled, on multiple occasions, that obscenity is not covered by free speech, and that it is defined by "community standard"(aka the Miller test), thus it is not an issue for the federal government to determine. Also, while Congress can pass laws to restrict "interstate commerce" of obscene materials (such as transport of pornography accross state lines) it cannot, under its enumerated constitutional powers, directly legislate against the sale of pornography within any state. Basically, this function is left up to state governments; what is legal in one U.S. state may be illegal in other states. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Presidential lifespan

What US president has lived the longest after their term ended? Nadando (talk) 01:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Herbert Hoover, with (i believe) Gerald Ford (the oldest ex-president) as runner-up. —Tamfang (talk) 01:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Could Jimmy Carter be third? Warofdreams talk 12:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

For those that care, the following all lived in excess of 20 years after leaving office. (dates are end of presendency - death year):

• Herbert Hoover, 31+ years (1933-1964)
• Gerald Ford, 29+ years (1977-2006)
• Jimmy Carter, 27+ years and counting (1981-present)
• John Adams, 25+ years (1801-1826)
• Millard Fillmore, 21+ years (1853-1874)
• Martin Van Buren, 21+ years (1841-1862), a few days less than Fillmore
• Richard Nixon, 20+ years (1974-1994)

A few died within 10-20 years of leaving office, but most died within less than a decade after leaving office. Also, 8 presidents (out of 42, slightly less than 1 in 5) died in office. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Closed-circuit wiki?

I know there are several wiki engines available for free on the internet for those wishing to create their own wikis, but is there a way to create a sort of closed-circuit wiki, in which the contributors are limited to registered participants? I'm thinking of an encyclopedia on a specific topic, available for anyone to use to obtain information, but only moderator-approved account holders could create or edit pages. Is there anything like this out there? I've searched for something like this, but haven't been able to find anything. - James —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.227.218 (talk) 01:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You can turn off open registration in mediawiki, and you can restrict edits to registered users. Then manually create accounts for editors. 71.176.156.86 (talk) 01:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Microsoft Sharepoint Services includes a wiki. It's easy to set up, but it's really terrible. I'm pretty sure that the mediawiki.org wiki engine is free. I think it runs with a php front end and a SQL backend. You'd need a server to run it on (any computer would do for an "intranet" site, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of internet sites that will host it) and someone who knows php and sql well enough to go through the setup.

As for access control, the most secure would be to host it on your own server, and only provide access to people in your network. It looks like the mediawiki engine allows the creation of user-level permissions though: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgGroupPermissions NByz (talk) 02:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I would strongly advise you to use MediaWiki - just like Wikipedia. You can indeed set up the permissions so that the only people allowed to edit have to have accounts - and you can limit account creation to the admin class - then make yourself be the only admin. Then, the only people who can edit are the ones for whom you, personally, created an account. Of the other Wiki's I've used - not one has come even close to being as good as MediaWiki. This should come as no surprise - any piece of software that can survive the pounding that Wikipedia gives it must be pretty solid. However, setting up a general-purpose encyclopedia using such a closed Wiki is kinda silly - you'll never come close to the depth and breadth of Wikipedia. The interesting areas to attack with private Wiki's are the extreme niche topics that don't pass Wikipedias' "notability" guidelines. An example of a completely locked-down Wiki would be my own - http://www.sjbaker.org/wiki ...it's not an encyclopedia - it's just the way I organize my own web site - and only immediate family members have accounts. You'll notice that there are no 'edit' tabs on any of the articles because you aren't logged in - and the 'login/create account' button doesn't in fact let you create an account (hmmm - I should probably change the label on that button). SteveBaker (talk) 12:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Drugs and kissing

If I made out with someone who turned out to have used some kind of meth or speed earlier would the drugs have been transferred to me, even a tiny bit? This is not a request for medical advice, this happened months ago... --124.254.77.148 (talk) 02:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You could probably count the transferred drug molecules on one hand 71.176.156.86 (talk) 02:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're worried about testing positive, it would only be your hair that still contained any traces after this long. It's almost impossible that it would be detectable by any means. [[17] for some info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NByz (talk • contribs) 03:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If your kissing partner had taken a liquid or loose powdered drug orally, and it was immediately before you locked lips, yeah, there'd probably still be enough of it lingering in his or her mouth for at least a "tiny bit" of transfer to have taken place. Whether or not this would have had any effect on you depends on the type and potency of drug, the amount present, your own sensitivity, and the duration and intensity of contact (trying to crawl down your partner's throat for five minutes is going to have a bigger impact than a little light tongue-teasing). If the drug was smoked and you could smell it on his or her breath, that IS transfer (definition of "secondhand smoke"), but not enough to cause intoxication (unless you kissed your partner just seconds after he or she inhaled the fumes, but before he or she exhaled, which obviously isn't the case here) or lasting damage (assuming no frequent repeat exposure). However, if the drug was injected or taken in capsule form (or taken in liquid or powder form long enough before your kiss for trace in the mouth to have been washed away), there's no reason for there to be any significant amount of the drug in your partner's mouth. Not enough to harm you, and certainly not enough to register positive on any drug test. - Lethe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.227.218 (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Pakistan potato patty/pancake

One of my co-workers -- I think he is from Pakistan -- sometimes brings in this delicious snack food that his wife makes. I would love to know a name for it that will let me look up the recipe (he just calls it potato pancake) and/or how to make it. Unfortunately, when I asked, he said he'd have to ask his wife and what he reported back didn't give me enough detail to figure it out. But it seems to be made with mashed potato and cilantro (the leafy herb), green chili (maybe) and coriander (the spice), and he said that there is also egg in it-- that must be what binds it together. And they appear to be pan fried. They are slightly smaller and flatter than a typical hamburger patty. I've tried to find a recipe on the web that sounds like it would make something close, but I've had no luck, and there don't seem to be any cookbooks on the cuisine of Pakistan in my local library. Anyway, does anyone know what this dish is? 68.251.61.102 (talk) 02:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and if it helps, he is Muslim, not Hindu. 68.251.61.102 (talk) 02:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

This sounds very similar to smaller version of a Spanish Tortilla, however, as I have not have specifically seen the dish you have described, I cannot say with any level of certiany how similar they are. --70.156.13.172 (talk) 03:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No, it isn't anything like as eggy as that-- it is much more potato than egg. 68.251.61.102 (talk) 03:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It is Kuku (pronouced exactly like cuckoo the bird) and it has different sorts, including potato kuku and vegetable kuku. --Omidinist (talk) 04:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You may be right, though that dish (based on a quick google search for recipes) also seems to be an egg dish rather than a potato dish-- I wouldn't have realized there was egg in the dish had I not been told. This thing is more like a potato croquette, and the potatoes in it are almost the consistency of very lumpy mashed potatoes. But at least now I have a lead! 68.251.61.102 (talk) 05:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

We have an article on Potato pancakes, aka Latkas, which focuses on the Eastern European/Israeli version. However, as simple as potato pancakes are, I can't imagine that these are all that different from the Pakistani variety (like Polenta/Grits, its all in the name, the recipe's the same)... The article also contains external links and if you follow some of these you may have success. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The polenta and grits articles disagree with you there, Jayron. Rmhermen (talk) 15:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not really, there's nothing in either article that indicates that one is indistinguishable from the other. Both are essentially a cornmeal porridge or mush, and any variation on the basic recipe in Italian cuisine is likely to have the same variations within the Southern U.S. cuisine. There aren't too many different ways to mix cornmeal and water and boil it. Subtle seasoning differences may exist, as well as the exact coarseness or fineness of the grind or variety of the maize, but really, mushy boiled cornmeal is mushy boiled cornmeal. Same with potato pancakes. There are likely to be regional variations on the basic recipe, but there aren't too many different ways of frying a flattened disc of mashed potatoes... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I would call it Potato bhaji or pakora. --ColinFine (talk) 20:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Dry Ice and Alcohol

What would happen if one was to drop a few cubes of dry ice into a glass of whiskey? Would the whiskey freeze? Would it still be drinkable? Acceptable (talk) 02:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd say something like this would happen. bibliomaniac15 02:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest in the strongest terms that no one experiment with it, but at one time college chemistry grad students would make a punch called "rocket fuel" which consisted of "Everclear" grain alcohol, sherbet, pineapple juice, and dry ice. It would bubble and foam and cause inebriation if consumed. Edison (talk) 03:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Adding dry ice to a punch bowl can be perfectly safe if one takes care. Note that it is essential to get food grade dry ice; it's made from the same purity of carbon dioxide that is used to carbonate soda pop. Handle the dry ice with clean gloves and store in clean containers. Use only in a well-ventilated area. Don't add dry ice directly to a warm, empty, glass bowl; the thermal shock may crack the glass. Read the MSDS. Your mileage may vary. Etc. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

At parties in my youth, I sometimes drank orange juice with Irish Mist and dry ice. Did the job; didn't kill me. —Tamfang (talk) 21:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Series of specific Japan-related questions

I might be traveling to Japan soon, and I wanted to find out a few things about Japan:

I am a US Citizen, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Spanish. I am planning on participating in the JET program, if they would be kind enough to invite me to teach.

I have a three questions:

1. How hard is it to get a long-term living visa in Japan?

2. It is possible for a foreign resident in Japan to work as a police officer? (Assuming I am entirely fluent in English and Japanese.)

3. How hard is it to get a job in USA - JAPN diplomacy? What kind of jobs are available?

I appreciate it, --70.156.13.172 (talk) 03:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The answer to the question #2:No. You have to be a Japanese citizen to be a police officer. Oda Mari (talk) 15:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If time is infinite...

moved to Science desk ~ mazca ^t|c 07:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The "one vote" candidate

I remember reading an anecdote a long time ago of a candidate for a lower-level political office who received just one vote. He didn't win, but it came out that obviously not even his wife and close family voted for him...the one vote he received was his own. Does anyone know A) if this was a real incident and if so, B) who it was? --Kickstart70TC 05:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It's better than that. In a December 1860 UK election, the Temperance Chartist candidate F. R. Lees of Ripon, Yorkshire, received no votes at all. Not even his own. Which makes a kind of sense: if even he didn't think he was worth voting for, why would anyone else? A manifestion of the ultimate lack of self-esteem, really, and I wonder why he even bothered becoming a candidate in the first place. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe UK election law requires you to be a registered voter in the constituency you're standing in, so maybe he just didn't have a vote there. --Tango (talk) 11:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

F R Lee's failure is described in United Kingdom by-election records#Lowest share of the vote, which says "his supporters mistakenly believed that he had withdrawn". A candidate getting no votes has also happened more recently in the UK, in the 2007 English council elections. According to the Daily Telegraph, "A Conservative candidate made history by failing to attract a single vote ... Shirley Bowes, 72, was even unable to vote for herself because she lives outside the New Trimdon and Trimdon Grange ward that she was contesting on Sedgefield district council."[18]--Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 11:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

For a more recent example of a candidate who won just one vote, see Catherine Taylor-Dawson. Warofdreams talk 12:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

death toll

overall how many people died in WWI

overall how many people died in WWII

overall how many people died in the second Congo War, or the Congo wars in general

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 11:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

See List of wars and disasters by death toll. Algebraist 11:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict): Our articles on World War I, World War II and the First/Second Congo War should help. Check out the "infoboxes" - the table on the right-hand side of the page that summarises key information. Booglamay (talk) - 11:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, and for any one elses benefit,

WWI 19,11000 WWII 70 000 000 1+2 Congo 4 100 000

Please see my next questio below some where Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 14:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptian Pottery

Can anyone provide some links to some useful sites about Ancient Egyptian Pottery? I've been looking through here trying to finding an article about it but so far there hasn't been any luck. Thanks in advance

BlebBlebBlebBLEB (talk) 11:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm - I don't see a lot of stuff about the subject but:

• Egyptian faience
• Canopic jar
• Ancient_Egypt#Technology
• Ancient_Egyptian_technology#Glassworking
• Art_of_Ancient_Egypt#Pottery

Click on any little blue numbers in square brackets embedded in the text to find references and links to other sites. I hope this helps. SteveBaker (talk) 12:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Drinking beer through a straw

Is it true that drinking beer through a straw makes you drunk more quickly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.158.197.100 (talk) 12:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No, unless you drink faster through a straw. Darkspots (talk) 12:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

There are lots of myths out there on what can make you drunk faster. The actual thing is, the only factor that matters is how much ethyl alcohol you ingest in a given time period. Say beer is 5% alcohol, and you consume a pint (roughly 500 ml), you will have consumed 25 mL of ethyl alcohol. If you take a 50 mL shot of whiskey that is 100 proof (thus 50% alcohol), you also get 25 mL of alcohol. If you drink, say 1 beer every half hour, or drink one shot every half hour, you will get drunk at exactly the same rate. The difference between beer and hard liquor is that generally you drink beer slower, since it has a higher volume, and since you often have to piss quite more often, so under equivalent drinking conditions, you tend to get drunker slower. However, if you are guzzling the beer, and sipping the whiskey, you will definately get drunk faster on the beer than the whiskey. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You go a bit far in saying that ingestion is all that matters. Absorption matters a lot, too, as anyone who's done any drinking on an empty stomach will attest. --Sean 13:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree - it's not the amount of alcohol you ingest it's the concentration in the blood - which is determined by the rate at which it's being absorbed against the rate at which it's being metabolized. If you consume alcohol at a rate slower than your body can metabolize it - you can drink as much as you like and never get drunk. That's why you get less drunk if you eat food while drinking - the digestion of the food slows down the rate of alcohol absorption which means that the peak blood-alcohol concentration will be lower and you'll get less drunk. SteveBaker (talk) 14:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

. . not forgetting that when you're eating your blood glucose is going to be higher. The effect of drunkenness is enhanced with a low blood glucose. Richard Avery (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Concerning the OP, despite all your well doctumented scientific knowlege, that I am sure is in good faith, I have tried the beer through a straw trick, and it does get you more drunk than just drinking it normally, Cider works better though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 14:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You think the straw thing works, try a liter of beer in a large funnel with a long enough piece of wide aquarium tubing attached to the narrow end to let gravity force the beer into your stomach in a few seconds. Repeat once or twice, depending on your tolerance to alcohol. Be sure to try this in a crowded room full of people chanting your name. Surprisingly effective. Darkspots (talk) 17:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Just don't do it with water! A friend of an old teacher of mine tried that (everyone else was doing it with beer, but he didn't drink) and ended up being rushed to hospital. Of course, doing it with alcohol isn't entirely wise either since it allows you to consume it fast enough that you've already consumed a fatal dose before you're drunk enough to pass out and stop drinking (which usually saves people). --Tango (talk) 18:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It should also be noted that beer is also mostly water, so any such effects would be equally present in funneling beer as well as pure water, amd this is compounded by the fact that beer also contains alcohol... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Blood is mostly water too. It's drinking a lot of something more dilute than blood that is the problem. I'm not entirely sure where beer falls in the range of concentrations, but it's certainly more concentrated than water so you would need more of it to dilute your blood to dangerous levels. --Tango (talk) 19:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, alcohol is a diuretic which is going to help. --Tango (talk) 19:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, beer funneling is insanely dangerous. But so is drinking beer in general, if you're not careful. Hundreds of thousands of people die a year, worldwide, because of alcohol and the things they do while under the influence. Moderation is the key to safety, not wanting to get drunk. Darkspots (talk) 19:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The plural of "anecdotal evidence" is not "data". Darkspots' answer has the original question covered in full. — Lomn 14:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I've heard stories of people getting drunk on non-alcoholic wine and beer (without knowing it was non-alcoholic). If you expect something to get you drunk, it probably will - it's a very subjective thing. While you may not get the blurred vision, bad balance, etc. (or the hangover!), it can still function as a "social lubricant". --Tango (talk) 15:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Tango, you are quite likely to get all of those physical effects, if you believe yourself to be getting drunk. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not everything is susceptible to the placebo effect, are you sure sobriety is? --Tango (talk) 18:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

According to this paper, published by the NIH it certainly is, and such placebo effects call into question whether control groups in alcohol-effect studies can be trusted as control groups, due specifically to what is termed the "alcohol expectency effect", that is some people receive social cues from other, actually drunk people, and thus themselves start feeling drunk. It isn't merely that the participants are knowingly "acting drunk" to "fit in". They may genuinely feel the effects in a real, tangible, physical way, akin to the placebo effect. This simple google search turns up enough scholarly papers to verify the basic principle. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Death Toll II

How many people died in the 20th century due to war. Total, civilians and military. A tuffy, but you guys can do it!! Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 14:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

P.S. how many people died overall during the Napoleonic Wars, as a direct result thereof Civilians and Military personel? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 14:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

We will provide an accurate and well referenced response as soon as all the data are available and tabulated. Please have patience, since it will be something over 325,861 days. (Note: the question originally asked for total deaths in the 29th century)Edison (talk) 15:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

HAHA, sorry, type o, i have corrected 29th to 20th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You might want to take a look at List of wars by death toll.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

1. The first question is impossible to answer definitively, due to whether you include famines and diseases connected with wars, genocides during wars, forced population relocations after wars, etc. So I suggest you work out what you want to include before doing any calculations.

2. Napoleonic Wars casualties. Wow, that was difficult to find. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 17:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

just out of interest

in the uk and/or does a solicitor or lawyer or some such person need to be part of a law firm to practice? does a doctor need to be part of a practice or hospital to see patients on a regular basis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You can be a self-employed solicitor or doctor. In fact, I think pretty much all GPs are self-employed. Solicitors often form firms together, so they join own the company, but I don't know of any rule that says they can't work alone. --Tango (talk) 15:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

There are also arrangements where each practitioner is self-employed but a group shares facilities. —Tamfang (talk) 20:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Many solicitors, and ALL Advocates (aka barristers - ie those lawyers who have traditionally enjoyed exclusive rights of audience in the Higher Courts) practise in isolation (note the spelling). Professionals such as lawyers and doctors practise in a practice, though you wouldn't think so if you saw how many mis-spell the word! In England, those Barristers who choose to do so join a set of Chambers headed by a senior of their number supported by Clerks who "find" work for them to do. But in that scenario, members of the same set of chambers can and do represent opposing sides in both civil and criminal actions. In Scotland, Advocates are members of the Faculty of Advocates wherein they enjoy support services, but again, they are self-employed. 92.21.140.152 (talk) 20:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

When is an article actually posted?

I wrote an article in the sandbox and debugged it. Then I hit the save page button. This seems to be as far as the instructions take one. When, if ever, can I actually see the article on wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cw010000 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You don't actually create articles in the sandbox, that is just for your own testing. You create the article in the real article's space. Best way to do this is to type the article's name into the search box, click 'Go' and then (assuming no article comes up) click the 'Create the page' link and go from there. Also have a look at Wikipedia:Your first article. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 16:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You can also create an article in your personal sandbox, User:Cw010000/my sandbox, by typing the complete string User:Cw010000/my sandbox into the search box, then clicking "create the page" when Wikipedia says it can't find an article called User:Cw010000/my sandbox. Now you have a subpage which is your sandbox for developing an article. You will be able to edit it, saving your work, add references, and when it is ready, move it to article space by clicking the "move" button at the top of the page. Use the desired title for the article where it says "To new title." This greatly reduces the chances of an admin or editor with an itchy trigger finger for deleting things seeing your article when it is one sentence long and tagging it for speedy deletion. It lets you develop the article incrementally without accidentally deleting a lot of typing while you are editing it, since each versions is permanently saved when you press save. An article should include reliable sources which have substantial coverage of the subject as references and should make some claim of notability for the subject of the article. There are some exceptions to this, like towns and villages, and members of legislatures, who have been judged inherently notable, and only need to be verifiable by a reliable source. Edison (talk) 18:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

One such page of mine was adapted by someone else into a real article! —Tamfang (talk) 20:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Party

if you throw a party and some one brings drugs, the party is then stopped by the police for to much noise, can you be held responsible for the drugs that they then find there. also, if you throw a party and have drugs there, could you just say that they are not yours and that the party got out of hand and you dont know whose they are. or who is now at yor party that started out as a small get-to-gether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

We can't give legal advice and it probably varies between jurisdictions. I think a lot of jurisdictions have laws against allowing drugs to be dealt on your property, but I'm not sure what would happen if they were just being possessed and taken, but not dealt. It may also depend on whether or not you knew it was going on. --Tango (talk) 16:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, this does not constitute legal advice, but you can be held liable for things that go on at your party, since it is your property, you have a reasonable expectation to control what goes on there. This reasonable expectation does not allow willful negligence, that is being ignorant of a situation you should have control over. In many, many jurisdictions in the U.S., bars and restaurants have been successfully sued by victims of drunk drivers for allowing said people to leave the bar, in a car, in a legal state of intoxication. In many other cases, parents are held legally responsible for parties their children throw, where people who leave that party cause problems. This is held to be true, even if the parents don't actually know about the party. The owners of the property are legally responsible for what goes on at their property. If people are bringing drugs to a party at your house, you can and will be held liable for those people and those drugs. If you don't want people bringing drugs into your house, don't allow them to come. The test is not whether you can be shown to actually know about them; its whether it is reasonable that you should know about them. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

And of course you don't have to let the cops in. You can just apologize and say "I'll take care of it, thanks" and refuse to let them enter. 71.176.164.70 (talk) 18:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Unless they have a search warrant, of course, but they aren't likely to get one just for a noise complaint. In fact, I can't see why they would even ask to enter if they were only there about the noise. --Tango (talk) 18:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, they can enter without a search warrent if they have probable cause to believe that a crime is in progress. Minors consuming alcohol would qualify as such a crime, and having large numbers of people who appear to be minors packed into a house and making lots of noise is probably cause to believe that such a crime is going on. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You're making assumptions about jurisdiction there - in the UK, there is nothing illegal about minors consuming alcohol in a private house (assuming they're over 5, anyway). --Tango (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

True, but so aren't you. There are many jurisdictions in the English-speaking world where it is perfectly permissible for police to enter a residence for any reason... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I never said they couldn't, I replied to someone saying they couldn't with one way in which they could. I never said there weren't other ways as well. (I may have inadvertently implied it, I suppose.) --Tango (talk) 19:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, Who's on First? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Globespan Flight from Glasgow International Airport

When did the Globespan flight from Glasgow International airport to Hamilton International Airport, Canada which was scheduled to leave Glasgow on 30th JUne 2007 (the day of the terrorist attack on Glasgow Airport) actually take off from Glasgow and when did it arrive at Hamilton Int Airport? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.230.184 (talk) 17:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

fog machine

I have a fog machine I just bought for halloween. However, the small tank you poor the fog juice in does not have a hole anywhere where the juice can flow into the main part of the machine. I don't want to waste fog juice so can someone tell me if it's meant to be like this?--76.176.143.54 (talk) 19:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Different fog machines work differently, so it's hard to say. I suggest testing it with just a little of the "juice" and see what happens. Perhaps it's meant to turn into fog and then escape from the top of the tank. --Tango (talk) 19:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Typically the fluid in fog machines lasts a long time. What's the manufacturer and model number of yours? Darkspots (talk) 19:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

They use a VERY small amount of juice - the hole you're looking for is obviously there - it's just that it's too small for you to see - you might well be looking for something the size of a pin-hole. SteveBaker (talk) 20:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Selena Vega 215

I own an radio named Selena Vega 215 and I wanted to know from what year it is. I searched on google and wikipedia and i didn't found it. 85.220.105.7 (talk) 19:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

My very first effort was to type "Selena Vega 215" into Google and I got a screenful of useful-looking hits. Halfway down I saw "Selena Vega B-215 Model about 1975. Minsk Radio Works. Belarus."...I don't think you searched very hard! SteveBaker (talk) 20:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

As SB says above, model B-215 seems to have been produced from 1975 onwards . In 1979 it was replaced with B-216 which looks identical. Another site says: Made in USSR in 1980 - traditional multiband radio, 8 bands on SW and broadcast bands - it employs 24 USSR Germanium & Silicon transistors - supply by 6x D cell for 9V - all electronic parts are USSR made all of good quality, nice radio of good electronic quality, it has good sound and reception - case is made of good quality plastics and wood and the dial is backpainted in many colours. Texts are in English, inside almost all texts are in Russian. This radio has no SSB reception on SW. --62.47.152.186 (talk) 21:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)