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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Repeated personal attacks and reverting of edits without addressing in Talk to gain consensus

Coretheapple has made repeated personal attacks and denigrating comments against me and my responses throughout Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Need for any additional details in this Bridgegate scandal article about Zimmer allegations about Hoboken Sandy relief aid, while making changes to Fort Lee lane closure scandal that are in contradiction to previous Talk discussions.

It was agreed at Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Complaints about media coverage & Neutrality & Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal/Archive 1#Rebooting the Scandal Page discussion that details of Zimmer allegations would be included in Governorship of Chris Christie#Hoboken relief funds investigation. This was agreed to even though it was acknowledged that the two separate scandals would be investigated by the same state and federal authorities, and other organizations.

It was just addressed again in Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Legal representation chart in which Coretheapple raised the issue of whether details of Zimmer allegations should be added. I reminded everyone that Zimmer allegations should be contained within the other article. Coretheapple made no further comments about a statement for inclusion in the Fort Lee article that reached consensus between JackGavin and myself with no reference to Zimmer and a link to the "Governorship of Chris Christie" section.

Instead, Coretheapple went into the Fort Lee article and started adding detail about Zimmer allegations.

I opened up Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Need for any additional details in this Bridgegate scandal article about Zimmer allegations about Hoboken Sandy relief aid to address content based on Coretheapple's addition of details about Zimmer allegations.

Coretheapple responded with the same points they made in a variety of Talk discussions that did not accept those arguments. I addressed each and every point that Coretheapple made about adding more content about Zimmer allegations and explained why they were not needed and that it contradicted consensus reached in past Talk discussions. Coretheapple began to make personal attacks and denigrating comments against me and my responses.

Coretheapple's latest personal attacks and denigrating comments against me in their Talk discussions included their entries of "wall-o-text", "rantings", "insane", "utterly beside the point", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting" and "hooting and hollering", as well as "blah blah/ comment" and "blah blah/reply" in their History of edit comments.

I repeatedly requested Coretheapple in that Talk discussion and my recent History edit comments, (i.e. [1] and [2] ) to address their arguments in Talk about content additions for details about Zimmer allegations. Instead, Coertheapple either ignored my Talk requests and History edit comments or made more personal attacks on the Talk discussion page, and then continued to add details about Zimmer allegations (see [3] and [4] ).

Instead of complying with my requests to address content, Coretheapple has continued with personal attacks on the Fort Lee Talk discussions and History edit comments in the Fort Lee article.

As clearly shown in Additional details for Zimmer allegations, Coretheapple is in violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Etiquette, Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, Wikipedia:Edit warring, and Wikipedia:Consensus, as they did not reach any consensus and ignored and contradicted consensus reached in past discussions in complaints, Rebooting the Scandal Page discussion, and content issues about Zimmer allegations that I previously cited above.

I have tried to work with Coretheapple in accordance with Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and Wikipedia:Consensus based on Coretheapple's bold additions for additional Zimmer details.

Based on evidence of Coretheapple's unacceptable and disruptive edits in contradiction to consensus reached at past Talk discussions and their objectionable personal attacks and denigrating comments against me and my responses or edits, I ask that Coretheapple be temporarily blocked since I have made every effort to try and work with Coretheapple based on content issues. Hopefully, Coretheapple will learn their lesson and work with me in the future. Wondering55 (talk) 16:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Just for the record, I have found Wondering55 to be one of the most difficult people when it comes to a) working with others and b) taking advice. Astronomically difficult. As an admin, I've just had shake my head and say "WTF" quietly to myself many times DP 17:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

For the record, rather than address the facts that I present for this particular case, DP has mis-characterized my past efforts and clearly good faith efforts for this particular case, and continues to make negative assumptions about me in contradiction to Wikipedia:Assume good faith. When a Wikipedia administrator has to refer to another person's good faith efforts, as demonstrated in this specific case, as "WTF", rather than address the specific facts and actions by another editor with clear evidence of personal attacks against me and my comments that appears to violate multiple Wikipedia guidelines that I presented, there is something seriously wrong. Wondering55 (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Ohhh, you're right ... something is seriously wrong. Remember, when you file at ANI, your own behaviour will come under the microscope as well DP 18:33, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I welcome review of my behavior for this particular instance and these particular facts. To try and confuse the issues with a debate on other past issues would be disingenuous and very time consuming. So far, I have not seen any constructive, neutral points of view about the facts of this particular situation. Wondering55 (talk) 19:23, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Based on my Talk comment of "Let's be reasonable" and my subsequent editing to give Corethapple practically all of their requested revisions with only one brief mention of Zimmer's name, Coretheapple goes in and adds more details about the allegations and puts back Zimmer comments about the investigation into her allegations, none of which were agreed to in the Talk.

Coretheapple's changes below were removed since they were not made in accordance with WP:BRD, as clearly shown in the Talk discussion. Coretheapple was requested to go back to Talk to address these issues based on [5].

[6]; [7]; [8]

Coretheapple ignored this request and put back details below into the article.

[9]; [10]

When those changes were reverted by me with another request to go Talk, Coretheapple simply reverted the changes and claimed that their revert details "are explained on the talk page" without indicating that the explanations, which were contrary to all past Talk discussions in several Talk topics, were not accepted on the Talk page.

[11]

In essence, Coretheapple reverted previously agreed to modifications three times within a day's time without addressing or gaining any consensus, as requested in my History edit comments and Talk. This does not even include Coretheapple's other previous edits regarding the addition of details about Zimmer allegations that were not in accordance with past Talk discussions with other editors and Additional details for Zimmer allegations. Wondering55 (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Just from an uninvolved editor's perspective, not many people will want read through all this text and weigh the merits of your complaint. Can you boil it down to two paragraphs and 3 diffs that best illustrate the point you are making? I'm only saying this because I assume you want editors to respond to your posting here and you're demanding a lot of attention from them. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

In Additional details about Zimmer allegations about Hoboken Sandy relief aid, Coretheapple's repeated personal attacks and denigrating comments against me and my responses culminated in their final inaccurate and denigrating insults of "wall-o-text", "rantings", "insane discussions", "you slapped", "utterly beside the point", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting" and "hooting and hollering", as well as "blah blah/ comment" and "blah blah/reply" in their History of Talk edit comments, as shown below.

[12]](April 12 13:34 - 14:09)

Those comments were made in response to my previous Talk discussion where I indicated "Let's be reasonable" on April 9 that was followed by my April 12 response below, which included "In a spirit of cooperation, I updated article to show the statement below, which incorporates all of Corethepple's revisions with a brief mention of Zimmer."

[13] April 12 4:01)

Other examples:

[14] (My April 9 15:36 response to previous personal attack about my comments as "insane" and "blah/blah reply")

[15] (My April 9 16:54 response to previous personal attack of my comments as "blah/blah fix")

I had repeatedly stated in that Talk that further details, which were removed, about Zimmer belong in Governorship of Chris Christie#Hoboken relief funds investigation as per consensus in past Talk discussions:

• Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal/Archive 1#Rebooting the Scandal Page discussion General consensus shown between February 12 and February 21, 2014

• Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Complaints about media coverage & Neutrality { See [16] (February 16 00:08) }

• Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Legal representation chart { Starting at line 514 in [17] (April 7 15:28 to 17:06) } Coretheapple was told by JackGavin and me that details about Zimmer allegations belong in Governorship of Chris Christie#Hoboken relief funds investigation. Coretheapple made no objections.

Coretheapple continued to make changes to the article in contradiction to those Talk discussions.

Coretheapple's changes for adding more Zimmer details were reverted in accordance with Bold Revert and Discuss with a request to address their proposal in Talk to see if they could gain any consensus for adding details. Instead, Coretheapple simply reverted these changes on three separate occasions within a days time between April 11 & 12 (if needed, see my previous response at 20:53, 12 April 2014 for diff examples) and put back all of the Zimmer details without any further Talk discussion.

I responded in Talk that Coretheapple's actions were in contradiction to Wikipedia guidelines for Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, Wikipedia:Edit warring, and Wikipedia:Consensus and that Coretheapple's final retort contained so many personal attacks against me and my comments. They violated Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Etiquette.

The changes made by Coretheapple for adding details about Zimmer allegations in contradiction to past Talk discussion and no consensus for including them based on the latest Talk should be revised.

I ask that Coretheapple be temporarily blocked since I have made every effort to try and work with Coretheapple based on content issues rather than any personal attacks or denigrating comments like Coretheapple has made. Hopefully, Coretheapple will learn their lesson and work with me in the future. Wondering55 (talk) 06:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Well done. Asked to "boil it down to 2 paragraphs and 3 diff's" and we get a wall-o-text. Helpful indeed, and indicative of behaviour so far DP 10:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

More denigrating comments and personal attacks by DP rather than focusing on the facts. DP continues to question my good faith efforts and behavior in contradiction to Wikipedia:Assume good faith and Wikipedia:No personal attacks. For some reason, DP has a very biased view of me. That is not right, particular by a Wikipedia administrator.

It should be clearly seen that my updated presentation makes it much easier to focus on the facts. DP's unnecessary claims of wall-o-text is clearly contradicted by that guideline that addresses "overly long unformatted statements". My clearly outlined and focused presentation with very short paragraphs is in accordance with the guideline's recommendation to "distill one's thoughts into bite size pieces."

As per the very constructive request, the first 2 paragraphs clearly highlighted the overwhelming amount of personal attacks and denigrating comments by Coretheapple and my efforts for conciliation and compromise that were rejected by Coretheapple, along with 4 diffs that clearly support my position. That is all the administrators need to focus on regarding my request to block Coretheapple based on their personal attacks.

As requested, I provided the diff's for 3 long past Talk discussions, so that administrators could quickly see past consensus that contradicted Coretheapple's proposal to add details about Zimmer's allegations into Fort Lee lane closure scandal rather than include those details in Hoboken relief funds investigation. Coretheapple was previously requested to comply with this consensus in one of these referenced Talk discussions, without any objections by Coretheapple.

I also referenced 3 Fort Lee article diffs to show how Coretheapple repeatedly added details about Zimmer allegations without discussing or gaining consensus in Talk in violation of Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, Wikipedia:Edit warring, and Wikipedia:Consensus.

The facts are clear and my updated presentation focuses on the key information with very clear diffs that should make it much easier for a constructive and fair review by Wikipedia administrators.

While not as blatant, Coretheapple is continuing to make condescending remarks about my behavior and editing, rather than neutral constructive comments. Wondering55 (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• The above Mt. Everest of text concerns approx. 15 words in the article, and my efforts to lure this editor into a discussion of the merits have been met by the kind of tactics that we see here. Wondering55 is especially emotive on this because he was blocked for edit warring based on a complaint I brought a few days ago, during the course of which his access to his own talk page was blocked. I am almost literally out the door for a few days and cannot respond further, but I am sure that Wondering55 will have plenty more to say on the "consensus" that did not exist and the terrible "personal attacks" to which I have subjected him, most recently concerning some comments concerning overuse of the word "indicate" in the article which didn't involve him at all and were not directed to him or any editor. I am not the first editor who has had this kind of encounter with Wondering55, and I am sure that I won't be the last. Coretheapple (talk) 16:37, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Once again, rather than focus on the facts of this particular situation, Coretheapple continues with their inaccurate denigrating comments of "Mt. Everest of text", my supposed "tactics", which incorrectly implies bad faith on my part, and "especially emotive", and brings up totally unrelated incidents to this particular situation, which stands on its own merits. The diffs for the 3 past Talk discussions that I provided clearly show the "consensus" of editors that Coretheapple has repeatedly ignored. Coretheapple's personal attacks are very clear in the first diff that I provided in my updated presentation (06:38, 13 April 2014). I am not even sure why Coretheapple even raised the issue of the overuse of the word "indicated" in the article since I never thought or indicated anywhere in this Talk or the Fort Lee article Talk that Coretheapple's comments were personally directed at me. I have not brought up any other past questionable behavior by Coretheapple since I wanted to focus on the clear facts of this situation where Coretheapple has made personal attacks and inaccurate/inappropriate denigrating comments against me and my editing.

There have been close to 200 editors in the Fort Lee article. Coretheapple has been the only editor to continually ask for additional details about Zimmer's allegations about Hurricane Sandy relief for Hoboken that is separate from the Fort Lee lane closure scandal. All other editors agreed that those details, with a link to that other article, belong in Hoboken relief funds investigation, along with many other scandals that have been publicized as people have looked into other aspects of the Christie administration. Wondering55 (talk) 18:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Coretheapple had added around 55 words (fifty-five) about Zimmer and her allegations in the article in their past edits in contradiction to consensus and Talk discussions. Coretheapple's final edit has added 41 words to the article. All other editors were satisfied with no additional words about Zimmer and her allegations beyond a link to Hoboken relief funds investigation. Wondering55 (talk) 20:48, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hmmm. Am I the only one thinking that the WMF server and bandwidth bill doesn't need this user? Guy (Help!) 7:03 pm, Today (UTC−4)
  • No, Guy, I'm another. Of course the most precious commodity the user is squandering isn't server space but the attention and energy of other volunteers. Bishonen | talk 07:12, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

My updated request at 06:38, 13 April 2014 has 440 words, not including links to the diffs or Talk pages. It is in line with requests below that were answered without discussions about their length.

Disruption and malicious editing – 502 words

Brews_ohare, Snowded and others – 490 words

Disruption and malicious editing – 401 words

User:Ohconfucius – 781 words

First 2 paragraphs, which only have 160 words, highlighted personal attacks and denigrating comments by Coretheapple and my efforts for conciliation and compromise that were rejected by Coretheapple, along with 4 diffs that support my position. That is not time consuming in order to focus on my request to block Coretheapple based on their attacks and comments.

Remainder of request addresses Coretheapple's violations of BRD, Edit warring, and Consensus that led to these attacks and denigrating comments, instead of focusing on content, as I requested. I suggested that Coretheapple's edits, which added between 41 to 55 words to the Fort Lee scandal article should be undone since there was no consensus and their revisions contradicted agreements and consensus in 3 past Talk discussions in which there were to be no words about these allegations, beyond a link to Hoboken relief funds investigation.

I would appreciate the courtesy of a review based on the facts that I have presented in my request at 06:38, 13 April 2014 that is within the length of other requests that were addressed. Thanks for your consideration. Wondering55 (talk) 18:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

As an uninvolved Admin, I took a look not only at the section of the Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal indicated, but at a random selection of other edits on the article page, & exchanges on the talk page. I could find no explicitly stated "consensus" there. My opinion, however, is that Wondering55 does respond to comments by others with impenetrable slabs of text. Stating an obvious fact is not a personal attack; truth is always a defense against libel. I also would like to point out Coretheapple's last response to Wondering55 included the passage: "If you want to engage in a discussion of the merits of adding 15 words to the text I'll talk about it with you. But if it's more personal attacks on me, more wall-o-text wikilawyering and boldface ranting and hooting and hollering, then I'm not going to waste my time." I interpret these sentences to mean Coretheapple is about to stop editing the article entirely. Seeing how that user made only 3 edits after that, I think I'm right about that.

And even if Coretheapple was rude, then gave up editing the article? What more does Wondering55 want done? I'm thinking the best solution here instead might focus on Wondering55. -- llywrch (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple has not given up on editing the article.

I want to know if Coretheapple can be blocked for personal attacks and denigrating comments (like those quoted and shown in the diffs below) that are simply opinions, and not facts, in the one cited Fort Lee discussion. I continually asked Coretheapple to focus on content without this derogatory language, and yet Coretheapple persisted. Coretheapple even edited one of their saved responses, which already had derogatory language, just to add more derogatory language. If Coretheapple cannot be blocked, will this type of language and behavior be allowed, or are there other alternatives to prevent or address this situation? Wikipedia and professional environments frown on denigrating opinions among colleagues.

• "wall-o-text rantings", "insane discussions", "you slapped at the top of this insane discussion", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting", "hooting and hollering", and "this discussion is insane, and that's a statement of fact, not a personal attack", as well as "blah/blah/fix", "blah blah/comment", and "blah blah/reply" in their Talk History edit comments when responding to me.

• [18]] (April 12 diff with multiple revisions by Corethepaple with the most significant derogatory comments)

• [19] (My April 9 15:36 response to Coretheapple's derogatory comments)

• [20] (My April 9 16:54 response to Coretheapple's derogatory comments)

This situation occurred while I addressed content and suggested that a significant portion of Coretheapple's revisions could be included. I used words like "compromise", "let's be reasonable", and "in a spirit of cooperation" to try and work with Coretheapple. When Coretheapple could not gain consensus for their entire proposal, Coretheapple started with their derogatory comments and repeatedly added details (with up to 55 extra words in various revisions, and ending up with 41 extra words in final revision) about Zimmer allegations about Hoboken issues to the Fort Lee article rather than just refer readers to Hoboken relief funds investigation, in contradiction to past agreements among editors (as shown below) for the Fort Lee article.

• Rebooting the Scandal Page discussion General consensus shown between February 12 and February 21, 2014

• Complaints about media coverage & Neutrality (February 16 diff)

• Starting at line 514 in Legal representation chart (April 7 diff) Coretheapple was told by JackGavin and me that details about Zimmer allegations belong in Hoboken relief funds investigation. Coretheapple made no objections. Wondering55 (talk) 23:17, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yikes! Mudslinging galore! Too many Wall-o-Text accusations and Attacks... Lets tone this down please. Happy_Attack_Dog (talk) 05:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Reading through the links that he provides, I come away with the conclusion that A) Wondering55 does not understand how article forks work; B) He does not understand the meaning of consensus, C) He does not understand personal attacks, and D) He just doesn't get that "wall of text" is both accurate and apt in describing his tactics. I know Coretheapple from other articles, not this one, and have always found him to be civil, and he shows no evidence of being anything but in this instance. I agree with other editors that the issue here is Wondering55 and his aggressive, attacking, generally clueless and WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I simply pointed out denigrating comments made by Coretheapple based on the facts. There are no personal attacks by me. Coretheapple's personal attacks in the referenced talk discussion and in their response above are covered by Wikipedia:No personal attacks:

• "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. Criticisms of, or references to, personal behavior in an inappropriate context, like on a policy or article talk page, or in an edit summary, rather than on a user page or conflict resolution page. Remember: Comment on content, not on the contributor."

Consensus and agreements were clear in the cited Talk diffs above. Previous editors, except for Coretheapple who was told by more than one editor, knew that it was agreed that details about Zimmer allegations would be shown in Hoboken relief funds investigation.

Coretheapple was unable to get anyone to support their proposal to add details about Zimmer allegations into the Fort Lee article, so there was no consensus for their proposal. Yet, Corethapple went ahead and added these details in contradiction to Bold Revert and Discuss.

There is no evidence or facts in the cited Fort Lee discussion that I had the claimed wall-o-text based on Wikiepedia's wall-o-text.

There is no evidence or facts to support that there was any "agressive, attacking, or generally clueless WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior", which are clearly denigrating comments without any substance.

When I used words like "compromise", "let's be reasonable", and "in a spirit of cooperation" to try and work with Coretheapple, it clearly contradicts those baseless charges.

Clearly, some people do not understand what it means to be civil, when shown comments about me and my responses that included "wall-o-text rantings", "insane discussions", "you slapped at the top of this insane discussion", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting", "hooting and hollering", and "this discussion is insane, and that's a statement of fact, not a personal attack", as well as "blah/blah/fix", "blah blah/comment", and "blah blah/reply"

Whether Coretheapple was civil in any other Talk discussions, has absolutely no bearing on the presented facts for the cited Fort Lee talk discussion where they were not civil. Wondering55 (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Apparently you are not happy with the responses you have received here, and have commenced a discussion on the same issues at the Teahouse. You were warned not to forum-shop, which you deny doing. You were also advised to "take to heart the excellent advice that a wide range of experienced editors have offered you in recent days," to which you responded in the negative. Would you like to continue the discussion here, or would you like to pursue it there, or is it your intent to discuss your grievances simultaneously in this forum and at the Teahouse? Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Figureofnine, you are being very kind to Wondering55. A less kind person -- like me -- would at this point make the following points: (1) speaking as an Admin, I'm not going to penalize Coretheapple for anything he posted so far in this case; (2) speaking as a third party, I seriously doubt any other Admin is about to penalize Coretheapple; & (3) speaking as both, if anyone is to be penalized here, I expect it will most likely be Wondering55. I strongly advise Wondering55 to accept the fact that not only he/she will not be getting any satisfaction here, but that he/she has dug himself into a very deep hole & should stop digging -- if nothing else. -- llywrch (talk) 21:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm struck by the absence of understanding. He just hasn't a clue. If you go to the archive of his talk page, where he appears to deposit old and new posts that don't make him look very good, he lectures an administrator who blocked him a week or so ago. [21] "Hopefully, you will find lessons learned here for your next administrator review." Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:30, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

So far I have seen too many clues from too many editors that seem to be engaged in unsubstantiated opinions and very misleading and complete distortions of my actions. They have not focused on my original request based on the facts, which I have presented that contradict their claims, and the issues of whether repeated denigrating comments made by another editor violate Wikipedia guidelines for civility, etiquette, and no personal attacks. Rather than address those facts and the very guidelines that tell users not to engage in that type of behavior, all of this is being ignored and additional inaccurate claims and denigrating comments are being made that contradict and ignore the facts.

I do not have the time to waste to respond to these further inaccurate claims and denigrating comments.

I seriously doubt if any editor on this topic was faced with repeated comments about them and their responses that included "wall-o-text rantings", "insane discussions", "you slapped at the top of this insane discussion", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting", "hooting and hollering", and "this discussion is insane, and that's a statement of fact, not a personal attack", as well as "blah/blah/fix", "blah blah/comment", and "blah blah/reply" (none of which are accurate based on the facts), as Coretheapple responded to me, that they would say that is acceptable language and behavior and do nothing about it.

I have been very civil in my editing and Talk discussions where I address content issues, including any contradictions with the facts from reliable sources, and not personalities. If needed, I point out actions and responses by editors that do not seem to comport with acceptable behavior and general etiquette, all of which are further supported by various Wikipedia guidelines. Wondering55 (talk) 05:14, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Would an experienced Wikipedian who has used Template: Welcomeg -- & related templates -- take a look at the edits Wondering55 has made to them in the last few days? I may be prejudiced here, but I doubt that his/her edits have improved the text in that template. -- llywrch (talk) 05:53, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I use {{Welcomeg}} all the time - and their edits turned it into a utterly useless piece of garbage, so I have reverted to an older version...and added it to my watchlist  the panda  ₯’ 09:52, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

add...which means I have had to undo some of their other major cockups related to welcome templates. I'll WP:AGF that they were trying to help, but those types of changes to core templates need far more that being WP:BOLD - they have evolved over years of reasoning  the panda  ₯’ 09:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty to revert {{Welcomeg}} a bit deeper ([22]). - DVdm (talk) 10:20, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I was afraid of that. I consider myself an experienced Wikipedian, & I wouldn't have dared to have made some of the changes the OP made without getting a second opinion first. ::sigh:: So what is the proper method to handle a problem of competence while acknowledging that the individual is acting in good faith? -- llywrch (talk) 15:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Please note:

• Wondering55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Daily.drink (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Enforcer5151 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Daily.drink and Enforcer5151 are two new users (or are they?) whose userpages were redirected to their talk pages ([23] and [24]) by Wondering55, followed by requests on their talk pages ([25] and [26]) for comments about Wondering55's proposed and dismissed version of template {{welcomeg}}. Can someone have a look at this and comment whether this is appropriate? - DVdm (talk) 12:30, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

It would have been helpful if this discussion about the Welcomeg greeting template was continued at Template talk:Welcomeg#Proposal for updating the template where it rightfully belongs.

All of these content issues about the updated version of the Welcomeg template could easily have been raised during the 6 weeks of updates that I addressed in a Talk discussion on that page where there was absolutely no consensus or additional feedback to not allow these updates to be incorporated. I was entitled to be "bold" in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines and assume there were no objections or second opinions about my proposed updates.

All of this outrage could have easily been prevented if all of these new responders had simply addressed their concerns in that Talk discussion for a greeting template that they should be watching.

I certainly would not have made any past updates for the greeting template if these content issues had been previously raised, or would consider making any future updates without further discussion, feedback, and consensus based on Wikipedia guidelines. I am a responsible Wikipedia user that knows how Wikipedia works and treats other users and their content updates, no matter how outrageous, with respect and a civil discourse.

Others using words and phrases like "utterly useless piece of garbage", " major cockups", and "ugh" are not conducive to a civil discourse about content and appear to contradict the facts of the content, Talk discussions, and Wikipedia guidelines about civil discourse.

Recent editors continue to spend an awful lot of time focusing on my actions, which were made in good faith for legitimate improvements, as if they were a nefarious means at worst or botched good faith efforts at best, rather than focus on the content issues. They then try to link unrelated past behavior to the specific content issues that I address. If every user, who had made a past faux pas, was called up on their past mistakes every time they wanted to address a new content issue, that would have a very chilling effect on needed legitimate Talk discussions.

Please stop making inaccurate allegations about my competence since they are not warranted. All of this negativity is very, very concerning to me and should be concerning to responsible Wikipedia administrators.

Focus on NPOV content issues without derisive and foul language, rather than unwarranted comments about my personal actions and there will be a vast improvement to the discourse and needed actions for Wikipeida article improvements. Hope to see all of you on Template talk:Welcomeg#Proposal for updating the template where this discussion rightfully belongs. Wondering55 (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

This Talk discussion should be closed out by an administrator since it is no longer focusing on the original request I made about responses I was receiving to content issues about the Fort Lee lane closure scandal. Wondering55 (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it's showing that they community might just have to review all of your edits on this project. You seem to have a history of falsifying consensus, being overly-bold when consensus is clearly against you, bizarre arguments, a wholly ineffective understanding of WP:CIVIL so that you twist it to try to be in your favour (which, by the way, has become a personal attack through making false statements). Our ability to assume good faith is now wholly stretched by a review of the mere surface of your edits. You've done a great job proving my very first statement in this thread to be true  the panda  ₯’ 18:29, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Re "It would have been helpful if this discussion about the Welcomeg greeting template was continued at Template talk:Welcomeg#Proposal for updating the template where it rightfully belongs": I don't think this is a discussion about the template. This is a discussion about user conduct. I haven't read the remainder of your reply per obvious wp:TL;DR, and probably building on the misconception in that first statement anyway. - DVdm (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

DangerousPanda continues to make completely false and inaccurate statements. The facts clearly show that I have no history of falsifying consensus, being overly-bold by going against consensus, no bizarre arguments (there is that avoidable denigrating comment again), no twisting of facts in my favor, and no personal attacks through false statements. I was involved with a misunderstanding about content issues that I repeatedly tried to work out with editors and made a mistake in unnecessarily reverting them. I have a very good understanding of what it means to act or not act with civility, and not make any false statements or twist anything.

None of these accusations should ever have been raised since they are completely inaccurate. This is beginning to look like a twisted way and an inappropriate excuse to investigate me and further harass me rather than simply focus on content issues. The conduct of those making inaccurate and derisive statements certainly leaves a lot to be desired. I am not asking for an investigation of their behavior or comments by others about how they have behaved.

The facts can be twisted any way needed to make a completely inaccurate analysis. Rather than addressing the original request for this Talk discussion, editors are now using this Talk discussion as an excuse to simply pile on unnecessary and inaccurate derisive comments about me in a very intimidating manner.

I am satisfied that viewpoints from all needed parties to my original request about the Talk discussion in the Fort Lee lane closure scandal have been adequately expressed.

It is time to move on to other issues. All of the new issues about what I have done regarding Template talk:Welcomeg#Proposal for updating the template should be addressed in that Talk page, unless editors have ulterior motives.

Differences of opinions about content issues and the updates that I made in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines can best be addressed on that page. Wondering55 (talk) 19:43, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

In regards to DVdm's previous comment, my previous response was not obvious wp:TL;DR since I was able to very slowly read my response, which is broken up into clear, concise, and well-organized short statements, in 75 seconds. DVdm would do well to heed the advice from that guideline: "it is sometimes used as a tactic to thwart the kinds of discussion which are essential in collaborative editing". All of my subsequent statements, which support my original first statement based on the facts, from my response were conveniently ignored and not addressed by DVdm. Editors are not following Wikipedia guidelines and are shopping for additional forums to vent their unsubstantiated anger against me.

I continue to offer my good faith efforts to work with them, even if we have differences of opinion on how to achieve results. So far, I have not seen any reciprocal offers. Let's move on. I have listened carefully to try and understand some underlying concerns contained in the editor's responses. I will do my best to try and work and with them if they give me a fair chance. Wondering55 (talk) 20:25, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

You would do well to read the box on top of wp:TL;DR. It is not a guideline. Not even close. It is a handy, concise, and humorous way to tell someone that they are making too much noise . - DVdm (talk) 20:36, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I second that, and if Wondering55 is thinking of expanding his reading list, I can also recommend Wikipedia:ANI Advice, particularly points #1 and #2.
Eventually, Wondering, people will get bored enough with watching you repeatedly post mountains of rambling, irrelevant text about how everyone else is the problem and you are not, to do something about it, and curb your disruption. Your style is not new, it's boring, old, and predictable, and the patience of people who are here to do something productive is limited.
In short - we've all seen this sort of crap before. Stop it, or have it stopped for you. I hope that's not a "denigrating comment" or "personal attack" or "failing to assume your good faith", but who would notice in your deluge of such nonsense?
Stop it. Grow up. Edit in accordance with community norms, or stop editing. We're mostly bored with you now. Begoon ^talk 14:59, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• Dangerous Panda makes a good point above re personal attacks through making false statements. Wondering55 has been trashing me throughout this discussion, as he has previously (look at the links he presents), and he shows absolutely zero sign of letting up or understanding that what he does is wrong. I have never attacked him personally, but he has attacked me repeatedly. In fact, nobody has attacked him personally. People comment on his contributions, which indeed have been "wall of text" rantings, for that is what does, that is how he contributes, that is how he disrupts talk pages. He responds by attacking the messenger. I really question whether this editor "does not understand" WP:NPA as someone suggested above; more likely he just willfully violates it.

This editor seems to have a problem comprehending things. We all make mistakes. I just made a biggie in an article on a play; I added original research in the synopsis which threatened to derail it becoming a DYK. That was pointed out. Fine. No problem. I fixed it. Over. Has Wondering55, with all the things he gets wrong, even once admitted that he has actually done something wrong? Coretheapple (talk) 22:34, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty new to ANI, but I wonder; could Wondering55 look at the discussion above, about Dicklyon and Duxwing? It seems to have quite a few parallels, and maybe a demonstration of what he's doing could convince him to stop. Origamite^{Please talk here} 23:00, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Not happening. You have to remember that he initiated this because he felt that he was the wronged party. It was made clear to him at the outset that his behavior was abominable. He responded with wall-o-text rants and forum-shopped to the Teahouse[27], where he was advised not to forum shop, which he denied. After a few days of being told in increasingly vociferous terms that he was flirting with a block, he finally got the message and stopped posting, stomping off with a parting shot that actually he was a victim of forum shopping [28] and that everyone else was to blame[29]. Has this experience put a crimp in his style? Nope. He screwed up a Welcome template and fought like the devil when two admins changed it back, finally stomping off.[30] When he was blocked for 3RR a week or so ago, same response[31]. Now I see he's revert-warring at Fort Lee lane closure scandal again. He reverted all the edits I made a couple of days ago that attempted to clean up the mangled prose in this article, which is a b--ch to read. He is just impervious. With an editor like this you either spend all your time squabbling with his wall-o-text rants or going to drama boards (if he doesn't cry "victim" and take you there himself) or you just give up. Coretheapple (talk) 00:25, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I understand; I have read this. Thank you for linking to the pertinent diffs. I'm just trying to get a feel for how nasty the cases on ANI are. (Very.) Also, the unblock requests qualify, in my opinion for a WP:Massive wall of text. Origamite^{Please talk here} 00:42, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

This put me in mind of that discussion, too. Both have something of the elegant inevitability of Greek tragedy about them. GoldenRing (talk) 11:03, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The tragedy is the time that has to be diverted from more productive tasks, whether in dealing with wall-o-text rants or having to carry out edits like this to clean up the messes they create. Coretheapple (talk) 12:08, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think Greek tragedy as much as complaining about something minor that WP:BOOMERANGs and hits the complainer right in the face. Origamite^{Please talk here} 12:20, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, his activity here has certainly put a microscope on him -- which, with telescope-scale posts, is all the more tedious. But will it come back to bite him in some substantial way? You can't ban someone for being insanely verbose and generally lacking in self-awareness, can you? Of course, it seems likely there will be further bans for other types of disruptive behaviour. Wondering, if you read this, you may feel it's just one more person piling but I really feel the best thing that anyone could do for you at present is point out the following -- there's a certain type of personality that feels they can win any argument on which they have a stance they truly believe in, if need be by sheer tenacity alone. Nobody likes that guy. Not even variants of that guy like the other, nearly identical, versions. In it's most productive form, argumentation is actually as collaborative an effort as any other type of human interaction. But you aren't trying to participate in that given and take, to adhere to an utilize those subtle points of reason, psychology, and collegial respect to win over your opposition or at least elegantly counter them in a way that is beneficial to your ends. Instead you are trying to hammer your opponent into submission with unending, but rapidly repeating, arguments. Not only is this unlikely to generate consensus (in the sense of finding a way to move the situation forward), it's likely to complicate many future interactions. And we're not talking garden variety bombastic wikilawyering; volunteers at ANI more or less have to be contributors with a high tolerance for repetitive and long-winded diatribes in those who petition or are the focus of requests here, but I think I can get the full support of near everyone who has had to slog through your responses when I say it's not a wall of text, it's The Great Wall of Text. It's a gold standard. Now retire a champ in that vein and try to look at debate on Wikipedia in a new way. Snow (talk) 14:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

He just wears down people, and look, it's an effective strategy and he shows absolutely no evidence of abandoning it. Were it not for his blundering into ANI and the resulting scrutiny, Template:Welcomeg would have been permanently screwed up, as his lengthy rants had worn down the editors on that page. Even after the intervention of two administrators, it still took extreme effort to deal with his talk page rants and fix the damage he caused. Fort Lee lane closure scandal is now his current theater of operations and requires more eyes. It is a highly trafficked article and it is abysmally written, and the way things are now it is going to stay that way. Coretheapple (talk) 15:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

He is pushing the envelope, & I think a plausible argument could be made to ban him simply to protect the Wiki -- especially if he moves outside of one or at most a few related articles. Despite acting in good faith, his acts are driving contributors away. But it will take an Admin who is willing to see the matter thru & risk the consequences: too many Admins have gotten burned handling people like him, & those willing to take a matter like this -- & who are smart enough to be successful at it -- on have never been numerous, & are even more uncommon now. So IMHO he's immune to any serious limitations if we're willing to sacrifice that article to keep him from "contributing" elsewhere. -- llywrch (talk) 17:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Right now I'd be happy if more eyes could be deployed on Fort Lee lane closure scandal. He has worn out everyone except me, and I'm getting there. I believe it is a deliberate strategy. He argues/edit wars about literally anything, and when there is nothing to argue about he makes stuff up and argues about it. Most recently he is trying to enforce a nonexistent standard on use of the "ref name" field in citation templates as used in that particular article.[32] It has to be a rigid format that Wondering55 has designed, upon which he expounds on the talk page. Yes, it drives editors from the article. Yes, it is frustrating. Yes, it is a time suck. Coretheapple (talk) 18:00, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Skookum1 again

I despise getting into this sort of thing (and in fact, I believe this is the first time I've ever actually filed an ANI report that wasn't a ban request for a sockpuppeteer, but...), but the behavior of Skookum1 (talk · contribs) has not moderated since the last ANI, in fact if anything, it's become worse. His previous assumptions of entitlement on the basis of being an expert on subjects are continuing, and he is flat-out telling other editors to "[keep] your nose out of categories you know nothing about the subject matter thereof", and he continues to assume any opposition to him is an attack on him personally. However what spurred this report is that he and BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs) have been...engaged in discussion...at this CfD (where the above behavior is ongoing), and my attempt to provide a caution and a suggestion for calming the waters was met with this response. This is wholly unacceptable behavior for any Wikipedian, and I would appreciate somebody to please make this clear, since it's obvious Skookum1 has decided that I am the enemy. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:17, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• Reply "The Witchunt Part II" huh? What is needed is not a ban to get me out of Wikipedia, but as noted/"hinted" by RadioKAOS what is really needed here is an interaction ban against BHG and now you for harassment and obstructionist behaviour. The CfD was launched moments after I created the category and is without guidelines to back it, or anything but IDONTLIKEIT and is entirely AGF in tone; BHG demands evidence and examples, I provide them, she says they're " 95%...irrelevant" and presumes to tell me to "cool down" and calls my detailed explanations "diatribes". "Walls of text" I'm avoiding by bulleting and paragraphing but failing that complaint, she engages in denial and obfuscation and more "bring me a shrubbery" gambits despite lots of shrubbery already being provided.
  • • The CfD has consumed three (two? - seems like longer) days of what would otherwise be productive time for this contributing editor; as with the regional district hyphen-endash RMs and last year's native endonyms RM, which were similarly stonewalled by demands for irrelevant picayune information, what underlies the categories being challenged is both consensus and very findable citations; but you can put reality in front of someone, they will still go IWANTMORE as BHG is doing; failing that the tactic being mounted here is to get me banned. Given that BHG has targeted whole hierarchies of categories she doesn't even understand where or what they are about is a case in point of people who don't have a clue what they're talking about not being useful in such discussions; and who have no business nominating them unless they'er clearly against guidelines; which these categories are not, as the 'oppose' votes have pointed out.
    • Calling for a ban against me is draconian and destructive. I wanted to stay away from procedural discussions after the painful round of insults and NPAs and pat-judgments that typified the "burn him, burn him!" "votes" in the last ANI, which was closed "no consensus for a ban or block", but in the wake of which (maybe within minutes, I haven't looked at the date/timestamps) I was blocked by BHG anyway, and then she went and conducted hostile closures on RMs where she ignored consensus, view stats, googles, guidelines and the prevailing and emergent consensus which closed/moves 90%+ of similar RMs.
    • And though I went at trying to work on articles and get away from the witchhunt mentality that prevails in this oh-so-negative "discussion board", I created some river articles arising from creating Tsetsaut and created a category for the many rivers in the region in question and was immediately faced by a CfD from an admin who had blocked me without consensus. The CfD should be tossed out on those grounds alone, never mind that she has yet to provide a valid argument for deleting/merging the categories she's assailing, and has expanded her challenge to my work by going after whole hierarchies of categories which, in various phases and on various talkpages, do have consensus as necessary.
    • This is a nuisance ANI, just like the CfD is a nuisance CfD, and though you claim you're not my enemy, your WP:DUCK action here says otherwise. "A subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will not advise nor submit to arbitrary measures" (Junius) comes to mind. Arbitrary and high-handed abuse from a certain cadre of admins is now far too common in Wikipedia, and is entirely destructive and anti-contributing-editor in tone/intent time and again; this deleted/censored comment of the now-banned Kumioto is one of many of this kind.
    • Actions like yours here and your obstructive presence on a CfD you yourself say you don't care about the outcome of are what is disruptive and anti-Wikipedian....not somebody who stands up to pointless criticism and denials of evidence/example; making me the target instead of addressing the evidence provided is your hallmark; as is deluging discussions with personal-related criticism instead of actually useful, thoughtful comments on the issues and the topic.
    • And yes, if someone knows nothing about geography of a certain region, or about the category system on such topics, then it is not their business to intrude and create more procedure just to stonewall and make specious demands which are then ignored or derided.......I'm having computer problems probably from the 100 degree plus heat here in Ko Samui (sleep mode happening repeatedly without being asked) so won't be able to respond to the inevitable dogpile of condemnations and hypocrisy like surfaced last time around.
    • the previous anti-consensus block by the person who launched the CfD calls into question her motives; her anti-AGF behaviour about citations and explanations provided is just sheer obstinacy and is disruptive and tendentious. I was contemplating an ANI or RfA or RfC or some other measure to discipline her, but I dislike procedure, as most contributing editors do, and want to write articles, not be hauled in front of kangaroo courts where attacking contributing editors is a past-time. The CfD is a waste of time and groundless and purely personal in motivation, and amounts to wiki-stalking by someone who has already taken actions in defiance of a 'no consensus' closure that said not to; how ironic she would claim that long-standing region titles should need "consensus"....they have it; but like evidence that 95% of which I'm sure she didn't read, "consensus" is really not what she wants, other than to use the CfD to overturn it. But why?. "Because it's Skookum1 who started that category so let's pretend there's something wrong with it"......and now, hell, let's just go after every category and title he's ever written huh?
    • Banning me would be a dangerous loss for Wikipedia, but you seem insistent on it for purely personal reasons and here as on the CfD and in previous discussions you indulge in WP:BAITing and what amounts to purely destructive behaviour. I just want to write and improve articles, but my time is being taken up defending myself against baiting and groundless anti-AGF criticism and harassment. Maybe one day "ordinary" (contributing) Wikipedians will be free from the tyranny of the vocal minority who infest discussion boards, be it here or on RMs or CfDs or in guideline discussions; but as long as public crucifixions and stonings of people who do constructive work continue, that day is a long ways off yet.
    • What is needed here, again, is not a ban to rid Wikipedia of me, but an interaction ban against those who have persistently harassed me and who refuse to read or acknowledge evidence and who have no logic or guideline citations to speak of; just IDONTLIKEIT and that's it. I have a great deal yet to contribute to Wikipedia, but the last few months have seen procedural attacks that are totally counterproductive and timewasting......so rather than goading me so you can condemn me, why don't you just stay out of my way and not jump on every discussion you see me in?? Skookum1 (talk) 05:50, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• Let's can the drama. Shut this thread. Give the guy some space. Carrite (talk) 04:44, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
• speedy close ani is just fuel on the fire. Close this, close the cfd, and leave him alone for a while. I can't see anything else working.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you Carrite and Obiwan for your sanity. Days of article-writing time have been consumed by the demands made in the CfD, and this ANI is just more harassment of someone who is acknowledged as a highly productive and prolific editor who "knows his shit". I submit again as I did above that an interaction ban is maybe needed; but less formal would be WP:DISENGAGE on BHG's and Bushranger's part; the RMs that were harmed by their biases against me should also all be revisited because of the prevailing and mounting consensus that would have seen them passed/moved. The COI passage on closures says nothing directly about personal vendettas, but that's all that CfD really is, and what this ANI is.Skookum1 (talk) 05:55, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
    • I did not "engage" you. I offered a caution and calming advice, in the hopes of avoiding your getting blocked, and I got a blistering tirade of personal attacks for my trouble. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:58, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
    • "calming advice"??? you're either flattering yourself or just not clued in; you engaged me repeatedly before, always condemning and criticizing while claiming you are "giving advice", but your actions cluttered a CfD to the point where even when I produced citations from TITLE you accused me of continuing to BLUDGEON; the bludgeoning is yours, you painting yourself as innocent and even friendly is just..... there are a host of adjectives available...... given your track record with me saying you did not "engage" me by chiming in with a "support" and very AGF vote on a very AGF and pointless CfD puts the lie to the saintliness you are painting yourself as here.Skookum1 (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• What is being requested here? I don't get the point of this thread. Is a block being requested, or a ban? No? This needs to be at something like RfC/U and not here. Doc talk 07:02, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I'd aver that a plain ol' RfC be held on BHG's launch of the CfD and her bad closes on sundry RMs, and her unilateral unsanctioned block of last week. I'm trying to be be a productive editor but finding my time tied up, and my presence here threatened, every time I turn around. The CfD, despite disclaimers that it's not anti-AGF, is very much so and in the context of recent events and words is highly COI in origin. The "Squamish matter" and the against-consensus/precedents closures of Haida people, Bella Bella, British Columbia and others need to be all redone because of the personal bias against me but the closer and their context within the recent ANI discussion/period. As Obiwan and Carrite have observed, I just want to be let alone so I can focus on article writing instead of having horseshoes thrown at me by people who have really nothing constructive to offer; I tried to "stay out of the way", but found myself stalked and pounced on and a whole host of categories challenged by someone who's never even heard of them before. As I said in the last ANI, I'm not the problem here; bad attitudes are, and the prevailing negativity of kibbitzers who nitpick on titles and topics without even knowing what they're about.....Skookum1 (talk) 07:43, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Raking me over the coals in an RfC/U would just be more procedure and no doubt an even more hostile and prejudicial environment than ANI is. And to what end? To alienate yet another long-time contributing editor and either drive or ban him from Wikipedia forever? The amount I could have gotten done in the last few weeks/months is obviously considerable; instead I have been regularly attacked and vilified and finally subjected to a public stoning and then a peremptory, unsanctioned-by-ANI ban by the person who now is asking non sequiturs and ignoring evidence provided as asked, and sticking her tongue in her cheek pretending innocence while castigating my information as irrelevant and wikilawyering in extremis. I was accused in the ANI of being a "time sink", but I'm not the time sink; procedure of the sake of the sport of it IS. How much of my last year or two has been taken up by time-consuming procedure of all kinds? Way too much. How many articles could I have improved and created in the meantime?? Subjecting me to an RfC/U to please those who have nothing better to do than criticize others is just gonna be more of the same....Skookum1 (talk) 07:55, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
  • What is being requested here is that somebody give Skookum1 a plain-English warning that personal attacks like the one linked in the OP are simply not on, since it would be improper for me to do so both on account of being involved overall (and the target of said attack) and since it would be taken as just more proof of being persecuted. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:58, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Damn right it is; you're the one doing the persecuting while claiming to be "not my enemy".....WP:DUCK says it all. You had nothing constructive to add at the CfD and here you are being destructive and calling for draconian measures to silence me forever. Give me a break, pal, I'm trying to get work done and loathe being hauled before mindless, picayune procedure that has no real productive value at all. Are you improving Wikipedia today? How? By launching an ANI against someone who just wants to be left alone so he can get some work done? Wow, very constructive....the CfD should be and I hope does get tossed out, and this ANI should be shut down for being the vendetta and witch hunt that it so clearly is.Skookum1 (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
      • "Are you improving Wikipedia today"? Well let's see, I wrote an article from scratch and spent four hours building a table in another article. It was indeed a productive day. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:29, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
        • Evasion and misdirection is staple fare it seems; you calling for a ban on me for my getting impatient with obstinance and obfuscation in t he CfD is definitely draconian......as is coming to this ANI at all, considering the threats of "escalating blocks" that were not consensus-agreed-to, but done anyway; Drop the hammer and go write some articles if that's really what else you do.... Skookum1 (talk) 09:08, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
          • And this little edit comment of yours sums up the cynicism and hostility underlying you bringing me before "the court" today; and imputes that I need "fixing", which is just more NPA and AGF while you wrap yourself in saint's robes. Go fix yourself, pal, I'm not the problem around here, people like you ARE.Skookum1 (talk) 10:12, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
            • Bushranger: "...you're right, this is pointless. Somebody feel free to close this, so that nothing can be done and eventually he'll will be blocked, banned, or "driven away", because nobody cared to try to fix things while they might be fixable)"
              • I am not calling for a ban, or even for a block, here. The purpose of this ANI was to ask for a warning. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I've reviewed most of the Cfd -- well, actually I skimmed the last part because it just went on and on.... Skookum1's unwillingness to stay on topic and repeatedly personalize the discussion there is inappropriate. Comment on content, not contributors I find myself surprised this is coming from a 50K mainspace 9 year editor -- it's not a viable long term approach to collaborating on Wikipedia. NE Ent 10:30, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

A quick visit to my talkpage this morning shows just how badly Skookum personalizes things. The short version is this: Skookum made an edit to this page earlier - they must have got an edit-conflict, but clicked "save" anyway. It erased someone else's post, so I reverted with an appropriate edit-summary. Skookum then happily dropped by my talkpage to make accusations, and even when they restored their post, the edit-summary accused my of something nefarious. Gigantic time sink.  the panda  ₯’ 10:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

There's some bug in the software -- that type of edit, where an addition to one section removes content from another -- happens here sporadically. It's worse when there are lots of threads present. NE Ent 11:24, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

@NE Ent: Whether it was caused by a bug or by user error, the point is that DangerousPanda acted quite properly and non-judgmentally, but still got flamed instead of thanked. That's the sort of behaviour which keeps on bringing Skookum1 to ANI. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

To the contrary, there was there a lack of WP:TPG in the statement they must have got an edit-conflict (no, they most likely did not). In addition, the summary given [33]] is only partially true -- while restoring edits accidentally removed by Skookum1 Panda did, in fact, remove Skookum's. See [34] for how to correct an ANI bug removal. We have enough "dirt" on Skookum without piling on nonsense. (It's this type of crap which leads credence, warranted or not, to the fiction that admins are a self-protecting cabal.) NE Ent 21:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment from BHG

On the narrow issue of this CFD, the situation is simply that after I had blocked Skookum1, I noticed that on his return he was posting complaints about me in various locations on my watchlist (e.g. [35]). So I looked at his contributions to see where else this was going, and saw a newly-created Category:Rivers of the Boundary Ranges which didn't fit into any other category of rivers. I looked for similar categorisation schemes, didn't see any, and nominated for discussion at CFD with the rationale: The categorisation of rivers by which mountain range they originate in doesn't appear to have any parallel in Category:Rivers, tho pls correct me if I have missed anything.

There is nothing unusual about any of this. Topics can be categorised in many different ways, and CFD regularly discusses whether new types of category schemes are appropriate. Skookum1's response was ballistic. Non-neutral notifications to no-less than 5 WikiProjects .([36], [37], [38], [39], [40]) and to User:Obiwankenobi[41].

As Obi pointed out, this scheme could create thousands of more categories so before pursuing it further I'd get broader consensus at the geography page.

Unfortunately, the CFD page is filled with long rants from Skookum1. His reply to the Bushranger was merely one of many diatribes on that page alone.

Skookum1 is clearly a very enthusiastic editor, keen to expand coverage of the topics which interest him. But he has great difficulty with collaboration, and with consensus-forming processes. Instead of Bold, revert, discuss, the Skookum1 version seems to be bold, revert, diatribe. In more discussions than I can count, editors who disagree with him have been denounced at length, often to the detriment of the discussion; countless editors have been accused by him of personal vendettas, and of failing to respect his expertise. I first encountered Skookum1 when I closed a CFD which had been open for over a month. Not hard to see why was unclosed: Skookum1's comments were far too long to read in any reasonable length of time.

I subsequently encountered a lot more of his battleground conduct while closing some of the RM backlog; one of those discussions was what prompted me to block him, because although the thread was a bit stale, the disruption was still ongoing elsewhere. Skookum1 alleges that I have been making "hostile closures on RMs" and that I "ignored consensus". If he genuinely believes that, then rather than repeating attacks on me in countless pages, why not just take the closures to Move review? If he's right, the closures will be overturned.

The personal attack which prompted this thread was in response to a warning from The Bushranger, who is merely one of a long series of editors to plead with Skookum1 to calm down. Others include:

A warning here seems justified, but I doubt it would change anything. Skookum1 appears to have pre-emptively dismissed it as persecution, and to have categorised User:The Bushranger as one of his legion of persecutors.

It seems to me that the question is how can Skookum1 be helped to work collaboratively? Sometimes our contributions to Wikipedia are challenged, and discussing those disagreements civilly and concisely (see WP:TPYES) is fundamental to editing Wikipedia works. Sometimes the result is decisions we like, and sometimes we disagree with the result, but that's how it works here.

Skookum1 hasn't cracked how to work within that framework. Would a mentor help? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:16, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

He also hasn't figured out how to put across his point without using reams of words, which make many of his comments virtually unreadable. BMK (talk) 23:21, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think using a lot of words on a talk page is a problem. It's an annoyance for some, and it no doubt reduces the effectiveness of arguments of principles being made, but some people use more words than others. It's a minor party foul if it is a party foul at all. I also appreciate that there is a lot of venom and antivenin being spilled all over the place. Everyone involved needs to just let it go, forgive, forget, and move along. l've strongly advised Skookum not to answer here and I hope he doesn't. I similarly hope that this thread is shut down expeditiously — it has done nothing but fan the embers. Skookum is a productive content contributor; just let him go without whacking him in the head every five minutes. Differences in deletion discussions happen and sometimes they get needlessly heated. Everybody needs to breath deeply, to step back, to do something else for a while. Wikipedia is a big place and there is plenty to be done without launching into rounds 6, 7, and 8 of a fight that inevitably ends up with a productive contributor's head on a pike. I've seen this pattern too many times and it sickens me. Just let it go, everyone. Carrite (talk) 03:12, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

The problem, Carrite, is that while everyone else forgave, forgot, and moved along, Skookum1 did not, and that is the reason this thread was opened. Being a "productive content contributor" does not excuse unprovoked and vehement personal attacks, it does not permit tossing around accusation of bad faith, and it does not allow someone to tell people to "get their nose out" of areas that person edits in. We can address the fact that Skookum1 has done all of these things (repeatedly, over and over) now, and hopefully retain him as a contributor, or we can close this and just come back to it in a week, month, or year, with another even stronger outburst of drama and the likely loss of the contributor. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:30, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

There is a bigger problem here. One that involves more than User: BrownHairedGirl and User:Skookum1. The problem is the clash between those who want to contribute content to Wikipedia and those who try to stop them. XOttawahitech (talk) 09:27, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Ottawa, I've seen you make allusions to this before, and I think you're wrong. bHG has created ~3300 articles (or more?) and probably thousands of categories. What evidence do you have that she, or anyone else, is either 'not' contributing content to Wikipedia, or trying to stop those who are? Don't paint this as a clash of civilizations or of contributors vs others - simply no evidence that it is as simple as that.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:19, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

It's the typical tired refrain of people who think Wikipedia would be better off as an experiment in anarchy. They tend to think that the creation of some content should become an impervious shield that protects them from the consequences of behavioural issues. Resolute 23:29, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

It's especially droll, as I checked out @BrownHairedGirl:'s contribution history - she has many more edits, and a higher percentage of those edits in mainspace, than @Ottawahitech: and Skookum1 put together! Her overall percentage of mainspace edits is 67% (~248,000 edits to mainspace), whereas Ottawa has 22,000 edits in mainspace (in other words, 10x FEWER content-creating edits), and Skookum has 48,561 mainspace edits. The other editor who started this thread, The Bushranger, has 54,723 mainspace edits, again more than either Ottawa or Skookum. I'm not trying to denigrate the contributions of Skookum1 and Ottawahitech, and I myself have many fewer edits than all these folks, but the claim that this is about content creators vs something else is ridiculous, and I think Ottawa should withdraw that comment and apologize.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:03, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Obi-Wan Kenobi.

A withdrawal by User:Ottawahitech would be welcome. Ottawa appears a bit confused about what their beef is, because further down this page complains that I "try to do too much".

One minute, Ottawa complains that I am a non-content-creator picking on content creators. The next that as a content-creator I am shouldn't be an admin.

I hope that Ottawa will recall that one of the definitions of a personal attack is accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence, and that policy is that such comments are "never acceptable". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

One Month Block Proposal

Once again we are hear and once again I notice borderline and outright personal attacks in difs and in the ANI comments. This obviously needs to stop, and the only way to do so is to force the individual to step away. Being cautioned has done nothing, and closing the previous thread before enough people weighed in for the week block last time prevented any action forth coming. Since then the problem has expanded, but I AGF that there is hope for the editor. That is the only reason an indef is not proposed. Tivanir2 (talk) 04:04, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

This seems like a nice, round number. One month in "the hole". For... prevention of imminent damage, to protect the encyclopedia. Oppose. Doc talk 10:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment - "to protect the encyclopedia" - the imputation that I am damaging the encyclopedia by expanding content and improving its categorization is just yet more AGF and misrepresentation; the call for a one-month block is draconian; it's like you're all wanting to up the ante without EVER discussing the issues and evidence in the CfD. It's persecuting contributing editors that's damaging wikipedia, all in the name of protecting the encyclopedia but really protecting the prerogatives and apparently immunity from review or questions about their motives, abilities and prejudices. I'm not the only one to observe the ongoing conflict between "wiki-idealists" and "wiki-bureaucrats", and I'm sure finding out what that's all about the hard way. What's going on here is a black mark in the history of Wikipedia...one among many, it seems....Skookum1 (talk) 15:55, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I suppose having created 350+ articles and 980+ images means I'm not a content contributor. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:42, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

@Doc9871: Whether or not a block is the solution, there is a problem. Skooum1's conduct repeatedly disrupts consensus-forming discussions.

Skookum1's response to a discussion where he doesn't like the proposal, or where the debate isn't going his way, is to flood it with rants about all the rest of the ways in which he perceives himself to have been wronged, about the alleged ulterior motives of anyone who disagrees with him, about their intruding into topic areas which he feels are his preserve, etc. In the CFD which started this ANI discussion, Skookum1 has already posted 39,333 characters (2/3 of the thread), most of it unrelated to the CFD. His on-topic points are mixed in with the diatribes, so anyone trying to follow the substantive discussion can't easily skip over the outpourings of his frustration.

This sort of disruption has been seen in countless other discussions. See for example this RM, and this CFD, where the substantive discussion was drowned out in extraordinarily verbose outpourings of rage. All of this runs counter to WP:TPG, and impedes consensus-formation.

Skookum1 has repeatedly been pointed to appropriate ways of addressing his grievances. Don't like a CFD closure? Take it to DRV. Don't like an RM closure? Take it to WP:MR. But instead of using the established channels to review these issues, he rants about them in other discussions, so nothing ever gets resolved.

I suggested above that mentorship might help. What's your preferred solution? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:53, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

why should I not raise the issue of your motives in those closes, or in starting the CfD, which you still have not provided any tangible rationale per guidelines or conventions; that I supplied examples and direct citation evidence only to have you pronounce all of that as "irrelevant" and then make further demands, is obstructionism pure and simple.

• You stylize my posts as "diatribe(s)" and worse plus other similar/usual NPAs and AGFs you have fielded at me both in the CfD and in the RMs and stonewalled, claiming evidence was still needed - when lots was provided. You ignore the points made by the "oppose" votes, you mumble about consensus and evidence despite the evidence already being there; and re the regions categories you have hinted should also be deleted, you have ignored consensus that lay behind their development and yet now you want a consensus on geography categories and a centralized discussion. To what end? The guidelines and policies already exist, you just refuse to acknowledge them. In that context, why should I not point out the AGF content of the CfD's launch, and your COI with me, personally.
• You have expanded the CfD to several categories and counting, yet when I fielded bulk RMs "procedural" objections were raised....and most of those RMs done individually, other than yours and DavidLeighEllis' were closed contrary to mounting consensus and also, as in the CfD, by ignoring votes and also view stats;
• you made false claims that SOURCES says that only GoogleBooks and GoogleScholar should be used for googles; in fact it says no such thing. TITLE/AT was invoked on the RMs that went in "my" favour (i.e. according to the integrity of the title per policy and also per actual sources) and waved at COMMONNAME as if it somehow bypassed PRECISION and CONCISENESS.
• your resistance to actually debate the evidence provided but instead lecture me on particulars that you demand (they were already provided, I'm convinced you didn't actually read what I posted, as you have before elsewhere) is proof of your AGF in this matter, as is the targeting of a category I created minutes after I created it in the wake of your unilateral and peremptory block, during which you "went after" some of the remaining RMs and gave them "negative closures"....... this is politics, and "in politics, optics is everything. You claiming neutrality and "UNINVOLVED" is laughable.
• Pompously suggesting I need a mentor is patronizing in the extreme; yet when I suggested you need remedial reading so you have the ability to read longer passages of text, you pronounced it a personal attack.....
• Move Review is not about issues, it is all about wikiquette; pointless for me to go there, the negative accusations/judgments fielded by you and others here will only resurface there while the issues and guidelines go undebated; an RfC as noted by CBW elsewhere is only about single guidelines as they apply to single articles; so that's not the place to go either as in all cases various policies and guidelines, not just one, apply; RfM maybe, but to me the RfC/U being mumbled about here is just more victimization while the issues remain undebated.
• in the case of the CfD you wave at a convention about political geographic units that, as noted by an "oppose" vote (and also in my points about the different systems of political geography/regionalization within BC), are ORIGINALRESEARCH on the one hand and RECENTISM on the other. There is no policy or guideline supporting your nomination and its expansion; there is only IDONTLIKE IT and your very evident "get Skookum1" attitude and tone of "debate".
• your failure to address evidence and your ignorance of the complete texts of the guidelines you presume to cite, and then rant about my supposed lack of coherence, is just "more of the same" and recognizable in style as similar to the stonewalling and POV forking going on at NCL and NCET; denial, misrepresentation, condescension, pontification, pretending something someone says doesn't make sense or is relevant, and ongoing demeaning comments about my writing (and my personality) you refuse to (or are unable) to read or logically process.
• I agree with those who say I should stay away from this bearpit and proceed with my work, which I have been doing; but to see the ongoing condemnation and what seems like provocation requires me to clarify the full context of this situation, and point out why your frustrating behaviour does call into question your motives and your very evident AGF towards me. I have contemplated an RfA on you, or an RfC/U, because of your behaviour overall, and your refusal to acknowledge policy or evidence while you continue to drum up hostility towards me. But I dislike process, obviously, and just wanted to be left alone to work on articles; then you came at me with a CfD without any substance behind it whatsoever.
• No doubt you will pronounce this as a rant to avoid having to answer to your behaviour and your violations of titling policy and more. Ranting about me, and provoking me with non sequitur questions and your refusal to acknowledge relevant citations and examples as relevant, point to you being unfit to even comment about "proper discussion" and also the shallow context of your CfD, which as I have said there is vexatious and disruptive. As with Bushranger, I'm not the problem here....I'm a contributing editor finding myself interfered with by people who, to me, have been harassing and demonizing me. When that gets pronounced a "persecution complex", it's just more AGF and NPA and amateur psychiatry masquerading as "proper behaviour".
• for knowing the material and the sources, and for being the one who built the mountain and geography categories, I have been wrongly accused of OWN. What I see instead is people who try to OWN Wikipedia, even referring to their opinions with the royal "we", and generally behaving so as to not encourage contributing editors or give them credit where credit is due, but to control them and, if they don't submit to hectoring and lecturing and AGF comments, propose to get rid of them. All because you have a problem with not being willing or able to understand more text than your impatience or inability can tolerate. And you make a personal issue of it, and have closed CfDs and RMs on the basis of those prejudices towards me. That is "not according to the spirit of the guidelines, and violates the every wikiquette you wrap yourself in while violating it with nearly every post you make in response to me.Skookum1 (talk) 15:43, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• Skookum1, you have a long set of complaints about a number of editors, of whom I am one. You make serious allegations against many of them, alleging all sorts of misconduct. The curious thing is that in most cases, it seems to be only you who complains of persecution by them. As I noted above, several uninvolved editors have suggested that you step back and consider why it is that you alone find all these alleged miscreants on your case, and consider what you can do differently to change the situation. So far, I don't see any sign of you doing that.
  You have a few choices in how you can deal with this.
  One option is to continue to post about all your grievances in every forum available to you: ANI, user talk pages, Jimbo's talk, XFDs, RMs, your own talk. That takes up a lot of your time, and maybe it is satisfying to you to air your grievances, but it doesn't change anything. So you remain frustrated, and you also frustrate other editors who want to discuss only the matter in hand. When they complain, you then add them to the list of editors out to get you.
  Another option is for you to use established processes to review decisions which you don't like. WP:MR exists to review whether move requests were closed correctly, and WP:DELREV has the same role for CFD. If you list closures at those reviews, you can explain exactly why you consider the closes to be flawed, and you concerns will be assessed by uninvolved editors. Those reviews are not (as you wrongly claim) about wikiquette; they are about whether the discussion was closed correctly. However, you have apparently written off the review process without even trying it.
  You could open an RFC/U about any editor (including an admin) whose conduct you find problematic. There you will plenty of other editors ready to review your concerns. But instead you denounce process and say that you "just wanted to be left alone to work on articles".
  Wikipedia is a collaborative environment. Editors discuss content and processes, review and critique each others contributions, and use established processes to resolve issues where they can't agree. Why do you expect to contribute to a collaborative environment and be "left alone"? Solitary writing is a fine thing, but it's not how wp works.
  Wikipedia is not a battleground. To avoid it turning into a battleground, there are a wide range of dispute resolution processes. You choose to neither use those processes, nor to let go and move on from the things which you feel have been unfair. Instead you bring every conflict with you wherever you go, such as denouncing RM closes in a CFD discussion. (That neither helps the CFD make a good decision, nor changes the RM outcome, nor reduces stress on you). That's your choice. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:29, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
• Pompously suggesting I need a mentor is patronizing in the extreme; yet when I suggested you need remedial reading so you have the ability to read longer passages of text, you pronounced it a personal attack..... And this, right here, summarises the problem with Skookum1's behavior in a nutshell: the suggestion that an editor consider mentoring to better work within Wikipedia's process being considered equivilant to suggesting an editor is mentally deficient. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:38, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• Apart from the personal attack, Skookum's comment also displays a rejection of good faith. Despite repeated complaints about the disproportionate time and effort required to read extreme verbosity and off-topic digressions, Skookum1 assumes that the complaint is bad-faith misrepresentation of a lack of ability. The guideline WP:TPYES is very clear: "Be concise". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:12, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

You summarize the situation well, BHG. I think this is a problem of collaboration. Unless an editor has a topic ban, there is nothing preventing any editor from working on any article or project, whether they are an expert or newbie. We don't get to choose who edits which articles, who comments on an AfD or CfD discussion, who votes on an RfA. Every editor, no matter how productive or how long they've been editing, has to deal with this lack of control. Ideally, out of diverse opinions and approaches come stronger articles and better decisions. When things are not ideal, well, like you said, there is always dispute resolution. Liz 22:57, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Doc: This isn't for a punishment. Every time this problem appears on the board not only does Skookums not curb their behavior they continue it on the board discussing the inappropriate attacks. I would suggest indef off the bat but I do believe that people can be reformed (otherwise I would have to give up entirely on the human race) and I am hoping that a month restrictions would make the user realize "Oh hell, they are serious." Then maybe we would see some actual improvement in behavior. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:20, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Solution

This is about Wikipedia Categories?? Not WP:BLP nor POV nor RS nor article content? Between this and the Amanda_Filipacchi#Wikipedia_op-ed categorization fiasco, I wonder whether they're worth the aggravation. (I'm reminded of an Emo Phillips comedy routine about schisms: text here, 1:17 youtube video.)

Obviously Skookum1 cannot continue the not concise personalized comments long term. See WP:First Law. Given that they're a 9 year, 50K / 60% mainspace editor [42], "solutions" (such as blocks) that are as likely as not to lead to their departure from the project are not actual solutions.

On the other, BHG stalking his edits post-block isn't ideal. While technically not against the rulz -- WP:INVOLVED is wikilawyerishly admin action after editorial engagement -- it violates the spirit of strict separation between an individual's admin and editorial roles. Call it WP:DEVLOVNI -- backwards involved. It's important to the gestalt of pedia that authority been seen as impersonal.

So how about a two parter:

• BHG will ignore Skookum1's category activities. (Given 839 admins and 120,034 users, surely it can fall upon someone else to Cfd categories if they're not quite right?)
• Skookum1 agrees to keep their Wikipedia: space posts less than 2000 characters and stop the personalization of disputes. NE Ent 16:53, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

@NE Ent: I appreciate the problem-solving spirit of your suggestion, but I'm not so sure it works.

First, the constraint on Skookum1 doesn't achieve much, because even one post of 2000 characters is grossly excessive in most discussions, and Skookum1 could easily evade even that generous limit by simply making multiple posts, as he often does. I'm not sure how to define a limit, because sometimes posting relevant evidence requires length. This is where I think that a mentor could help him to craft more concise and focused replies.

Your suggestion that he stop the personalization of disputes is a valuable one, and would certainly help. However, he also needs to be constrained to discussing the narrow issue in hand, rather than using each discussion to air his wider grievances.

As to me, I certainly wasn't "stalking" Skookum1; I was looking at his contribs to see the extent of his complaints about me. Since he chosen not to use any of the formal dispute-resolution or review processes (or to ping me when mentioning me), it is the only way to find out where I am the subject of complaint.

Along the way I spotted an odd-looking category, so I examined it. I can see why it is possible to read that CFD nomination as some sort of personal thing, but I just ask editors to look at the grounds for the nomination. This category of rivers was not parented in any other category of rivers, and did not appear to fit into any wider categorisation scheme; the geohpysical regional basis of it is at best diffusely documented.

I would be happy in principle to make a clearer separation between my admin role and my long-standing interest in categories, and thereby ignore Skookum1's category edits in future. If my good faith attempt to open a discussion about a category is seen as blurring lines, then it evidently had an unintended bad effect. I don't share NE Ent's optimism about categories being generally well-scrutinised, but am happy to leave that aside.

My reservation about this is not for me, but that I think it sets an unfortunate precedent. So far as I can see, any editor who has challenged Skookum1's edits or proposals gets accused at length of bad faith. In a long series of RMs, editors who expressed views different to Skookum1's were denounced ferociously; where his opponents agreed with each other, they were labelled as cabals.

I fear that this is setting off on a path where Skookum1 seeks restraints on other editors rather than learning to work collaboratively and follow WP:TPG. That's just pushing the problem down the road, and impeding the normal scrutiny which editors apply to each others work. Skkoum1's repeated demand to "leave me alone" just isn't viable in a collaborative environment. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:17, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• @NE Ent: I'm not going to bother commenting more here today, it's the usual one sided rants and (as with Neotarf below) cherrypicked examples, all with AGF as their theme, but I would like to point out I just ran a word count on BHG's post immediately above - 450 words=2,623 characters - while her very editorialized and misrepresentative "hostile close" at Talk:Chipewyan people#Requested move 2 is 537 words=3,249 characters - longer than some CfD/RM posts she pronounced TLDR as an excuse not to read them (when it was pointed out she shouldn't be using TLDR on discussion boards, she went and dug out a "behavioural guideline"). And what is going on at the CFD is not "normal scrutiny", it is groundless and not normal, but as noted COI/AGF in origin and targeted; disavowals of that are made, but the refusal to acknowledge evidence provided (or in the inability to read/digest it) is what it is. The claim by Neotarf below that my problem is with "every person" [I interact with] is just more typical conflation and misrepresentation and attack-mode "IDONTLIKESKOOKUM1", and the rants here and in other threads about numbers of characters per post overloading wikipedia's servers are ironic; it's fruitless and venal and often mean discussions here and elsewhere that are taking up far more space.....and I know from the BCGNIS template dispute long ago that Jimbo and the MWF told the code-writers to write as if t hey had unlimited space.....so what's the big deal about actual text, or is code more important than words and meanings. You want shorter posts from me? Well, if people weren't stonewalling and tossing NPA/AGF grenades in my path, that would help a lot. I also of course support an interaction ban, and feel it should Bushranger as his own behaviour is demonstrably hostile and his own use of "walls of text" while complaining about mine in the Squamish CfD where he used TLDR as a BLUDGEON, while citing BLUDGEON, is every bit as hypocritical and AGF and destructive and became the focus of BHG's invocation of TLDR to reject that CfD (even though TLDR is not to be used in discussions (it's about articles) without condescending to examine the evidence provided, or acknowledge support votes either.Skookum1 (talk) 02:03, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Skookum1, that's classic straw man stuff. I have never cited TLDR against any of your posts. I have repeatedly pointed you towards the behavioural guideline WP:TPYES, which says "be concise". Have you even read WP:TPYES? The problem is not server overload; the problem is editor overload, when discussions are filled with off-topic rambles.

You dispute some closes; time to put up or shut up. If you dispute them, open a move review or deletion review. If you choose not to use the established routes to review them, stop whining about them.

As to the evidence you provided at CFD, I question the significance of some of it. That's a normal part of a discussion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:16, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I do not support any interaction ban, as one is not necessary. What is necessary is that Skookum1 accept that his behavior has not been within the bounds of WP:CIVIL, instead of continuing to insist it's everyone else's fault, agree to stop trying to accuse others of the behavior he engages in, accept that people disagreeing with him is not attacking him, and agree to engage other editors in a civil and constructive manner even when they disagree with him. I would like to poit out that I have not provided "walls of text" as claimed by Skookum1, nor have I been "demonstratably hostile": I request that Skookum1 provide diffs to support these claims or cease making them. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I find it puzzling, to say the least, how someone who has never interacted with this user can have "attack-mode DONTLIKESKOOKUM1" secret motivations. Whatever. If all of these diffs that other editors have provided are "cherry-picking", then where are the threads that show this user being able to focus on the topic and engage in constructive collaboration? Are there any editors at all that Skookum does not consider eeeevil? A more philosophical question--how does a user with this communication style edit for so long and stay under the radar? I consider that highly unlikely. Are we looking at some recent problem--maybe the editor is getting burned out? Maybe it's time to voluntarily step back and take a breather. Skookum. Dude. You're in Ko Samui, and you're wasting your time arguing on Wikipedia? Go to the beach. —Neotarf (talk) 02:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I do, every day....it's 50 yards from my porch. And as for being burned out, what's burning me out is the endless attacks on my personality and writing; I'm not burned out for real Wikipedia work, only finding my time eaten up by defending myself from persistent AGF/NPA attacks and this ongoing witchhunt. This hyperbole is AGF in the extreme - "Are there any editors at all that Skookum does not consider eeeevil?", and also is a false imputation, as can be seen by those who have shown support for me and the areas which I am working without being treated as I have been here, and in the obstructionist behaviour and hostile closures of RMs and CfDs. This line "how does a user with this communication style edit for so long and stay under the radar" is just "more of the same". This user has contributed huge amounts to titles/articles and also to discussions of all kinds, including weather NPA/AGF accusations on various titles and topics; your pretense that I have "stayed under the radar" i.e. escaped official harrassment is equally specious and also confrontational and is "incitement" of yet more. I'd rather work on real material than have to defend myself against campaigns to get rid of me; I'm not alone in that sentiment, as a glance at various other witchhunts and rants about "walls of text" (while committing same) elsewhere on this board and in its archives. Why don't you go write some articles (since you can't go the beach) and drop the axe-grinding and pitchfork-wielding as you are doing here? I'm not the one being disruptive, but my work is being disrupted and obstructed ("tendentious editing") on a regular basis, including here.Skookum1 (talk) 03:18, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

So where are your diffs, your uncherry-picked examples of where you are focusing on the topic, and assuming good faith of other editors, rather than making unsupported accusations? —Neotarf (talk) 04:26, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

To User:NE Ent, this AN/I was not initiated by User:BrownHairedGirl; it was initiated by User:The Bushranger. I initiated the previous AN/I of Skookum1. While problems have arisen from categories, they also include personal attacks (including "accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence," which constitute personal attacks), extreme verbosity, inability to stay on subject, lack of citations for assertions, canvassing, and misrepresenting Wikipedia policy. These collective actions create a toxic environment and disrupt dialogue, which have rendered consensus-building discussions all but impossible, e.g. 1, 2, [43], [44], etc. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:39, 20 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

@NE Ent: As Uyvsdi points out, I raised this - not because of verbosity (indeed, in the current CfD there was marked improvement from the concerns that had arisen for me in the previous one that's relevant), but because of the personal attacks, particularly the blistering ones unleashed when a caution that a trip down NPA Road was being taken was delivered. Regardless of categories, the personal attacks, inability to accept dissenting viewpoints, and assumptions of bad faith to the point of reading attacks that aren't even there into statements (i.e. the repeated vehement insistience that I raised this ANI to get him banned) are the problem here. 150K of discussion on a single topic can be productive - but it has to be made in a productive fashion, and that is where the problem is here. Neither of us want to lose a productive contributor: quite the opposite. But a productive contributor must be willing to contribute collegially, or at the very least to be willing to accept dissenting viewpoints and remain calm and even enjoyable to discuss content with, even when opposite sides of the issue, as long as the bear doesn't get poked; Skookum1 has shown little sign of being willing to do so, no bear-poking required. All that's needed here is for a simple, good-faith statement that an attempt will be made to keep discussions, regardless of length, on the content and not the contributor or the contributor's motive in the discussion, and the drama will be over. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:29, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

The specific request Bushranger made was I would appreciate somebody to please make this clear, (about the personal stuff), and I think this proposal includes that. While not discounting the points made above (by BHG and Uyvsdi), they're moot unless agree Skookum buys into or is willing to at least discuss the proposal, so I'd prefer to wait for their response before I comment further. NE Ent 20:46, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Your proposal does not address the overwhelming bulk of the problems, so is not a solution. -Uyvsdi (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Which is? (i.e What is "the bulk of the problems")? NE Ent 21:17, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

To recap, they are "personal attacks (including "accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence," which constitute personal attacks), extreme verbosity, inability to stay on subject, lack of citations for assertions, canvassing, and misrepresenting Wikipedia policy." -Uyvsdi (talk) 21:22, 20 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

It is not just one or two people, or just admins, it is anyone who comes in contact with this user. For example see the personal attacks on this thread. People who volunteer their time for the project should not have to be subjected to verbal abuse. They will either leave or complain. If you try to solve the problem by merely getting rid of any editors who object to personal attacks, you're gonna be dealing with this problem for a looooong time. —Neotarf (talk) 01:22, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Another personal attack from Skookum1

Please look at this edit by Skooukm1, at 0700 UTC today. It's his most recent contribution to the discussion, and it is a mixture of personal attack and misrepresentation, which distorts any debate. Responding to this sort of thing is time-consuming and verbose.

It was made in response to my original nomination, which said in full: The categorisation of rivers by which mountain range they originate in doesn't appear to have any parallel in Category:Rivers, tho pls correct me if I have missed anything. All the 6 pages currently in the category are already in other categories of river-by-political-geography. That nominator's rationale has not been amended or added to.

Skookum's reply is: That's an outright falsehood/distortion but all too typical of your lack of knowledge of this region; only the Whiting, Unuk, Craig and Lava Fork (4 articles) have Alaskan political geographic divisions on them, none have Canadian political geographic units on them; the Keta is in Alaska but was newly-created and has not yet had Alaskan p.g. units added; your argument is even more irrelevant as there are no British Columbian equivalents for same (the Alaskan boroughs are regional municipalities; there are no municipalities in this region of BC, other than tiny Stewart at the southern end.

The 6 pages then in the category were Craig River, Iskut River, Keta River, Lava Fork, Ununk River, Whiting River. (In each case I have linked to the version at the time of nomination).

Unpicking Skookum1's comment:

1. "an outright falsehood/distortion"
   Very harsh words, but possibly justifiable if true. However, they are demonstrably false.
2. "all too typical of your lack of knowledge of this region"
   A personal attack, particularly when I had explicitly asked for clarification of anything I had missed.
3. "only the Whiting, Unuk, Craig and Lava Fork (4 articles) have Alaskan political geographic divisions on them, none have Canadian political geographic units on them".
   This is demonstrably untrue: Craig River, Iskut River, Ununk River, Whiting River were all in Category:Rivers of British Columbia. Lava Fork was in Category:Creeks of British Columbia. Keta River was in Category:Rivers of Alaska. I had referred to "river-by-political-geography". BC is a province of Canada; it is a Canadian political geographic unit, so all 5 rivers in BC did have Canadian political geographic units.
4. "your argument is even more irrelevant as there are no British Columbian equivalents for same (the Alaskan boroughs are regional municipalities".
   I made no reference to boroughs or municipalities. How can an argument be made irrelevant on the basis of points neither asserted nor alluded to?

Now we have at the top of the CFD debate, a personal attack based on a false representation of the nominator's rationale, and an assumption of bad faith. How much more of this is to be tolerated? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:54, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Just stop following Skookum, please. Bushranger and BHG have problems with Skookum, and the reverse, and all of them know it. Then stop following Skookum's categorization work and stop opening CFDs and stop opening ANIs and new sections of ANI. Leave it to other editors and time to have perfection in categories worked out. There is no benefit to wikipedia from the provocation going on. --doncram 11:20, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

So the response to personal attacks should be allow the attacker to drive other editors away from topics where the attacker chooses to work? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:38, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

From what I read above, skookum was doing new, independent work, and it is the followers sparking contention, i.e. being "attackers" in a general usage sense (probably not in the wikipedia jargon of "personal attack"; in wikipedia we too much allow deeply incivil attacking to go on and then castigate those who react to provocation, saying they are using personal attacks). From what I read above, it was not skookum entering an area where others were working already and opening contention. --doncram 12:08, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

That is a definition of "attack" which doesn't fit with any policy I know of. It also misrepresents the nature of the CFD, which was explicitly framed as a question about whether an apparently new form of categorisation was appropriate.

If Doncram's view was accepted, most CFD discussions wouldn't happen, because they relate to categories identified by editors who approach them as a piece of categorisation rather than as a particular topic where they routinely work. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:25, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

To BHG, I don't know about "most" CFDs, but I do know that many AFDs and probably CFDs are in fact attacking in nature. It depends upon apparent motive and perceptions between editors. If there was indeed some past history of conflict, it seems reasonable that Skookum could perceive this CFD to be an attack. It was not a neutral discussion, it was a proposal to delete categories Skookum was setting up. It rambled on with more accusations (of "disrupting" Wikipedia somehow by Skookum separately creating more categories, of Skookum supposedly violating wp:Canvas, and more) that seems like badgering. It was as if Skookum could not dare set up some reasonable-sounding categories without advance permission from one editor. If one editor wants to question an initiative that an experienced editor is proceeding with, do it mildly, literally ask a question at a Talk page or something, and consider whether it couldn't be raised in an RFC eventually, months or years later. It seems confrontational and unnecessary to immediately open a proposal to delete work in progress, and yes that is a kind of attack. And even without me knowing about past history, all the other charges in the CFD plus the opening of this ANI seem to confirm that it was personal, in truth, or at least that it was very reasonable for Skookum to perceive it to be personal.

Speaking not especially about this incident, but about others, Wikipedia would be a lot better if we had a proper process to stop followers who have become perceived by a target to be bullying, from continuing to follow and poke. I do not understand how some editors who know they are being perceived as hurtful and bullying, nonetheless choose to continue with the following and bullying-appearing activities. Avoid the perception of bullying. If you know you are hurting someone, be humane and stop. Let it go, let someone not perceived to be a bully in the situation raise a question some other way later, if indeed anything ever needs to be discussed. Again, I really do not know the parties and the history in this case, so I am not speaking about parties in this case so much. But, it is obvious to me that contending against quite reasonable-seeming categories with only lame "reasons" or with attacks on other fronts like claims of personal attacks or whatever, is really really not helpful for building wikipedia or for making Wikipedia a nice place. --doncram 05:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

@Doncram: I have always understood WP:BRD to be quite fundamental to how Wikipedia works. Any edit is open to challenge, and it is then discussed. That's a crucial part of the whole collaborative process by which content is scrutinised

There are broadly two ways of discussing an issue. The first is one-to-one discussion; the second is at a centralised location, such as XFD, which exists for discussing various types of content.

There are multiple advantages to having those discussions in a centralised venue. It gets wider input to the discussion, and it ensures that the discussion is archived in a place where it will be easy to find in future.

With categories, there are great advantages to having those discussions sooner rather than later. If the categorisation scheme stays, those building it know that they are on the right track. If the consensus is that it's not a good idea, then everyone avoids a lot of wasted work.

Categories are different to articles. Articles largely stand or fall on their own merits, but categories are often part of a much wider system. Geographical categories work as intersections between consistent sets, where we have a broadly consistent set of topics intersecting with a broadly consistent geographical framework (Category:Roads in New York and Category:History of New York parallels Category:Roads in Yorkshire and Category:History of Yorkshire). Introducing a new geographical framework creates a set of categories which don't fit in that structure. Far from being "lame" (as you put it), it seems to me to be much better to have a centralised discussion at an early stage about the viability of the proposed new geographical framework. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:18, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, BHG for responding. But you didn't start a centralised, neutral discussion in a leisurely RFC or conversationally at a WikiProject talk page. You started a CFD which called for relatively immediate deletion of the categories that Skookum had set up, which is simply not friendly or neutral. You called for stopping Skookum from continuing (you labelled other Skookum edits creating categories to be "disruptive", while I really do not see how they could be viewed as disruptive), and seemed to be seeking to criminalize Skookum's actions on various not-central-to-the-content/category "issue" that could be discussed. And you were forcing immediate discussion, when it was not convenient for Skookum. Perhaps some discussion, saying you think the larger implications oughta be considered sometime, could have led to productive discussion. And the target could be asked and have opportunity to explain his intentions, whether they were limited to covering just the rivers of British Columbia for example, and then would he agree that the time would be ripe to call for a larger discussion, rather than interrupting and freezing the productive edits immediately, as if there was some huge crisis (not the case, no downside present for Wikipedia readers). And, it was you in particular who was pushing, and while I am not familiar with the background, I gathered that you and Skookum had previous confrontations. IMHO the wikipedia policy should be that an administrator/editor who previously played a policing/attacking/monitoring role that came to be perceived as harassing should be discouraged/disqualified from doing that again...there could be a random assignment of another administrator or just leave it to chance for anyone else to pick up a new issue, but whoever was involved previously and is perceived as being bullying should not be the one. Some one else oughta be appointed, if there is actual real damage to readers going on. (Again please forgive me that I am not completely clear on whether a characterization of past interaction like that applies here with you and Skookum.) One reason for such a rule is that a previously involved policeperson has an obvious apparent-to-the-target conflict of interest or bias, that the previous enforcer-type may be more likely to want to prove the target is a criminal, to justify their past action. And whatever a perceived bully says is quite reasonably taken differently by the target than the same words from a perceived-to-be uninvolved other editor. This is not to suggest that any violator of Wikipedia policies should be allowed to disqualify whoever they want, merely by falsely claiming bullying. There need to be some standards. However I perceived the discussion above and at the CFD to indicate that there was evidence suggestive of appearance of bullying. (Standards of evidence oughta be defined somewhere...I have some ideas).

Also, and this is a huge point that I have thought a lot about, you reference wp:BRD guideline. From past experience, i STRONGLY believe that BRD guideline ought to be clarified to express whose edit is the Bold vs. whose is the Revert, when one editor is creating a bunch of stuff, believing it to benign, and another editor follows. I strongly believe it works best if the creating editor is understood by default to be creating, not boldly doing anything. And a following editor is doing the Bold step, if they interrupt and delete. So the creating editor is given some deference, and may Revert, and go on (and it should all be discussed at a suitable Talk page of course, to exchange views and so on). It should NOT be understood that any following editor gets the right to call their edit deleting to be the Revert and claim power to call any reversion by the creating editor to be edit warring, past BRD. It simply is horrible policy, to empower anyone/everyone to interrupt and have precedence over a productive creating editor, who really probably does have a good rationale of what they are doing. Later, eventually, in an established article, the BRD process would work normally. BRD is written about bringing change productively to established articles, it is not written properly to apply to new works. Wikipedia is not well served by overly empowering following critics; Wikipedia is well served by empowering creators with some respect, some deference, some "ownership" in a good way, for a time (definitely not forever, but the creator should be given some space and some power for some amount of time).

So, BHG, i don't know where you were going with mention of BRD, whether you wanted to claim Skookum was in violation of that, but my sentiment would be that a) Skookum was creating editor and has right to call a following edit to be a Bold, unexpected change that Skookum can fairly Revert, and then, yes, b) Skookum should indeed participate in discussion eventually, but there should be no rush and the discussion should be in a neutral venue and not with ultimatums of imminent deletion and other negativity. --doncram 23:31, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

@Doncram: You are entitled to your view of WP:BOLD and WP:BRD as "horrible policy". If you want to rewrite or delete WP:BRD, then seek a consensus to do so, and let me know how you get on. But in the meantime, please don't berate me for working within long-established policy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:55, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA. I did not attack. I made a !vote in the CfD, speaking civilly, and that only got a questioning response - it was when I cautioned Skookum1 that he was over the personal-attack line in his 'discussions' with BHG that I got blistered. If I'm "following" him it's because he continued attacking me at the CfD. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:37, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

To Bushranger, you may well have not meant an attack, but by Skookum's reaction that editor did seem to perceive it that way, and it was adding on to other I-am-guessing-to-be-reasonable belief by Skookum that there was unjustified attacking type stuff going on. So, back off, say it is not important to you, let the editor proceed. My humble opinion. We don't have enough consideration for avoiding the appearance of bullying, and we don't generally have enough appreciation for a target's opinion. Frankly, if someone says they are being bullied and it is not incredibly absurd to think they really mean that, and they are not doing it for some crazy commercial selfish advantage (not the case here), then don't dispute that, let the target say that. It should not be a crime (a personal attack) for someone to say the truth that they feel they are being treated unfairly, that others are seeming to bully. If they perceive it, it is real. --doncram 05:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

"say it is not important to you": This is, unfortunatly, exactly what I did, before anything else - and I got attacked for it. Saying that he believe he's being treated unfarily is not a personal attack; saying that other editors are mentally deficient, and making up accusations out of whole cloth, are (claiming, multiple times, that I started this ANI to get him banned, and also his statement that I "posted lengthy diatribes against me" - it should be noted that whenever Skookum1 has been asked to provide diffs for his claims there is no response). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:17, 22 April 2014 (UTC). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• Ok, so the $100,000 question is this: Skookum apparently is here to build the encyclopedia. However, part of that "building" process is the community-nature, and the relationships involved. How do we convince Skookum that content-building AND playing nicely with others is the only way forward? What will it take? A topic ban? A short block? Other restrictions? Their response to anything is to immediately personalize-and-attack, and that's not acceptable behaviour the panda ₯’ 11:50, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• That's the $100,000 question on, like, every ANI thread. "Guy is a good contributor. Guy can't do civil discourse. What do??" --Spike Wilbury (talk) 13:56, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• I honestly believe it needs to be something that will make the person take stock. I suggested a one month block above per this mindset, though no one else seems to be weighing in other than doc that cast allusions to me doing it as some sort of punishment. I am a pessimest so I don't think one month will change skookums attitude but I am someone that gives the benefit of doubt. Hell if Skookums could just make attempts at not attacking others and actually working with the community I will happily withdraw the suggestion. However, as far as I can tell and see, I believe that skookums will reject that out of hand because the editor still sees their behavior as acceptable and not an issue. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:21, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I have blocked Skookum1 for 12 hours for the personal attack noted above, and am considering closing the CFD under IAR, with a recommendation to revisit it in a month if the filing parties still feel it's necessary. The categories won't hurt anyone if they stay for a month, and Skookum1 has made coherent and well founded arguments in their defense (amongst the other stuff) on the CFD proposal.

If anyone are on good terms with Skookum1 and think they'll listen to you, please engage with them and try to get them to back off from personalizing things once the block expires. I and others have said so here and on their talk page but to no good effect so far. I desperately desire not to drive Skookum1 away entirely, but the sniping has to stop. Please assist in social pressure to reform their behavior. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, from what I see, Skookum wouldn't listen to a free pair of top-of-the-line Beats headphones the panda ₯’ 22:12, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

@Georgewilliamherbert: I would not oppose an early closure of the CFD, so long as it is done in some form which doesn't prejudice the possibility of reopening it a later date. There is some good discussion in there (on all sides), but there are also too much other stuff to make it easy for other editors to follow, so an early closure may be a suitable step. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:39, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I have closed the CFD as an administrative No Consensus / IAR close, with a recommendation that it not be refiled for a month to allow for the discussion to cool down. This explicitly does not prevent a refiling a month from now (or sooner, if you ignore my advisory waiting period, which has no policy-based authority other than please for the love of god let it calm down first ...). Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Big mistake! Skookum1 will simply continue to create more categories requiring more cleanup if consensus is to not have them. Are you going to cleanup the mess? If you want to do that, you have to block Skookum1 from creating categories for the same time period. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

A suggestion

Brrrrr, it's snowing here. Forget I said anything... —Carrite

Perhaps the solution would be mutual interaction bans between Bushranger and Skookum on the one hand; and Brown Haired Girl and Skookum on the other. Skookum needs to be more nice and these two need to leave him alone so that he can work without feeling stalked. Carrite (talk) 16:30, 21 April 2014 (UTC) Oppose - It's quite clear that Bushranger and BHG aren't the problem, and Skookum is, so unless you plan on instituting an IBAN on every editor Skookum gets into conflict with in the future, this is not the solution. The solution is for Skookum to alter his uncollegial and uncollaborative behavior, and fast, before a block or ban comes his way. BMK (talk) 16:49, 21 April 2014 (UTC) Oppose- Obviously the actions of Skookum are the problem here, not the reactions to the actions. If those editors who really want this to end without some kind of sanction of Skookum, they should try to make sure he stops this kind of behavior before uninvolved watchers of this unnecessary drama start weighing in. Dave Dial (talk) 16:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC) Oppose I sympathize with Brown Haired Girl et al and am in fact monitoring this board because of another editor whose tactics are remarkably similar to Skookum's (so much so that he dropped a message of encouragement on that other editor's talk page). Such editors can have a toxic effect that counteracts whatever other good they do. I don't care if they have 100 or 100,000 edits. Coretheapple (talk) 20:10, 21 April 2014 (UTC) Oppose as proposed subject. I respect Carrite as an editor but I'm dissapointed in him for implying that I'm "following" or "stalking" him. No such thing has taken place. I saw a CfD, I !voted in the CfD, and then (seeing the quality of discourse in the rest of the discussion) I posted a caution that 'You don't want to do that, Dave'. And got absolutely blistered with personal attacks in return. (Diffs in OP.) As I said above, an interaction ban is not what is needed here: Skookum1 agreeing to be WP:CIVIL is. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC) Oppose as proposed subject. So far as I can see, Skookum1's list of perceived "enemies" includes at least The Bushranger, BrownHairedGirl, Uyvsdi, and Kwamikagami. Plenty of others have been the subject of his personal attacks, but those seem to be the ones who he is most vociferously denouncing at the moment. AFAICS, none of these 4 editors has accumulated other "enemies" in the same way. Which is more likely: that these each of these 4 editors have jointly or separately decided to persecute Skookum1? Or that one editor (Skookum1) has a persistent problem interacting with editors who disagree with him? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:39, 21 April 2014 (UTC) Oppose. Are you kidding? Don't stop the bad behaviour, but topic-ban people who have attempted to address it? I started to say that Brown Haired Girl's been entirely reasonable in her dealings with Skookum (I haven't been following Bushranger), but I take that back: She's been unreasonably tolerant of him. The only reason I haven't complained about his atrocious behaviour is that it's so ludicrous I can no longer take it seriously. — kwami (talk) 21:51, 21 April 2014 (UTC) Oppose this is not the answer. The editor at fault should be banned but unfortunately the more edits you have here, the lesser the chance of you being held accountable for your appalling behaviour. In my mind this drives away more good editors than any other issue facing the project Flat Out let's discuss it 23:18, 21 April 2014 (UTC) Oppose as a dangerous and counterproductive solution designed to close this particular ANI thread but which fails to address the larger problem. Skookum has a long history of interacting very poorly with anyone who disagrees with him. Throwing up interaction bans against two editors acting in good faith because Skookum threw a hissyfit will only result in his throwing similar invective at anyone who challenges him in the expectation that similar interaction bans would be entered. Resolute 23:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Request

As the admin who blocked Skookum1, I would like to request ANI's assistance in reducing tensions here.

Skookum1 feels, rightly or wrongly, that the ANI episode and criticism elsewhere was a form of ganging up on them. This has clearly been driving their behavior.

I believe that everyone is now aware that a wide contingent of editors feel that there's a significant problem here. The above threads show a consensus on that point, but not unanimous by any means. I would like to note for the record that the message is understood and received by uninvolved admin (hopefully, admins).

I also believe that Skookum1 is widely felt, including by some of the commenters in the emerging consensus, to be a valuable content creator and editor.

I would like to request that we attempt to simply de-escalate from here. No good outcome is served by further poking. I would like to archive the sections above later this evening.

Skookum1 clearly felt that the threads above were contributing to the ganging up, and said so above and on their talk page and on the CFD. Ideally they can just walk away from the discussions and leave it be.

I would also like to see if anyone with experience mentoring would be willing to engage with Skookum1 and see if they can assist in cooperative tension reductions.

If there is significant objection to archiving I won't do so, but hope everyone will take a deep breath and let that be the outcome.

Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

"This has clearly been driving their behavior." Skookum1's nonstop personal attacks against any user with an opposing opinion dates back months prior to any AN/I. BrownHairedGirl and The Bushranger just happen to be the most recent recipients of Skookum1's unsubstantiated accusations of harassment and attacks. -Uyvsdi (talk) 06:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

endorse. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I won't oppose a closure, but I will point out the behavior started well before any of the claimed 'ganging up' - it was a result of it. If it's felt it's best to kick the can down the road, though... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

It's better to kick the can down the road. Plenty of uninvolved admins are out there that can archive this. Procedure should be taken into account here. There are appeals in RL courts that succeed because procedure was not properly followed. "Conflict of interest" comes to mind. Doc talk 05:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - You two have each blocked the user and want to close the case. Let unbiased, uninvolved admins do it for you instead. Doc talk 03:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

What would help to reduce tensions is if Skookum would stop with the personal attacks and walls of text. He has now been blocked for 4 days, and then for 12 hours ("de"-escalating blocks??), but even now is busy filling his talk page with--you guessed it--personal attacks and walls of text. On his talk page he refers to this as "in flow", or "managing multiple thoughts", or "in stream of consciousness mode". What to do. A mentor might help, if the user could find someone he trusts, but he would have to be the one to initiate this. He could also take a voluntary break--this can be a stressful time of year with the Songkran holidays, and with many expats in the region moving to cooler or drier climates. A couple of weeks exploring the qualities of Singha or Tiger with a closed browser might do wonders, and allow him to eventually return to tranquil editing. Again, he would have to be the one to agree to this. Might dispute resolution help, after a cooling off period? If nothing is done, or if the problem is merely postponed, the user will be lost to the project, and may even take some good editors down with him. —Neotarf (talk) 06:53, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I just don't understand how this user could have been allowed to operate here for so long, with so many edits and so relatively few blocks (though they are increasing quickly), if he's such an extreme civility case with the "nonstop personal attacks". How can this be? How much have we really been slacking over these attacks until now?! Shame on all of us for letting it get this far, really. Doc talk 07:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, British Columbia geography is rarely an area of high conflict. Skookum is a better editor when he's left to edit on his own. His past conflicts (usually over politics) have often been short bursts without quite this level of ranting, and he's often taken a break before going too far. In this case, Skookum took the CFD extremely personally and that magnified what usually just simmers under the surface. And the dumb thing is, he needn't have reacted the way he did. The CfD itself was leaning on the keep side of no consensus. Resolute 13:44, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but I'm all in favour of de-escalation, but this bullshit idea that the above thread is somehow "bullying" or "ganging up on" has to be nipped in the bud. The intent of ANI is to provide a forum (from Latin meaning "gathering place". In complex cases, multiple involved and uninvolved users discuss the situation to come up with a method of resolution. Hundreds of editors have this page watched, and ALL are permitted to comment based on their findings. As is often the case of extremely problematic users, the quantity of discussion is huge. As is often the case when the editor complained about plays WP:IDHT, the rhetoric gets ratcheted up a few notches. That is what Skookum needs to learn and understand - a broad swath of the community finds him to be pesky. The sheer quantity (or "gang") should tell Skookum just how many people he's pissed off. Look, if someone runs for town council election, and they get 1 vote, and 10,000 votes against them ... those 10,000 didn't "gang up" on them! Those 10,000 are independent voices - just like in ANI the panda ₯’ 08:38, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not defending Skookum1's "peskiness" for other users. It is what it is. I only care about his right to due process. The odds are stacked against him: and it interests me like F. Lee. Meh. Doc talk 08:52, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• @Doc9871: One of the persistent problems is Skookum1's own repeated refusal to follow due process. He disputes some RM and CFD closures I made. That's fine; any editor is entitled to disagree with a close, so we have move review and deletion review. Both review types are solely about whether the closure reflected due process.
  But Skookum1 refuses to use those review processes, and instead sounds off in multiple forums about the alleged unfairness of the closures (a lot of his posts here relate to them). What's with the concern about due process when Skookum1 refuses to use it? Where does that leave closers' rights to due process? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't know how to answer that except that he is in a decidedly different "process", with the blocks and all the negative attention. He is being labelled as a wiki-criminal, and the process I was referring to is the "wiki-criminal defense process". Tough gig! Doc talk 14:08, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

@Doc9871: Pursuing that "criminal" analogy, suppose X feels that the courts have treated them unfairly. In this particular system, they have an absolute right to appeal, without any cost, and with no need to seek leave to appeal. All they need to do is to ask the appeal court to review the earlier judgments. No need to prepare a brief, or attend the hearing (tho they ae free to do both if they want to).

Instead of taking that route, they enter other courts, disrupting proceedings by shouting about how they have been the victim of an awful injustice. In each case, they are told that they could appeal, and they still refuse. Eventually, some of the other courts start saying "this is contempt of court", and begin contempt-of-court proceedings to discuss sanctions available.

That's the sort of cycle we are in here. For "appeals court", we have move review and delrev. For "other courts" we have ongoing XFDs and RMs. For "contempt-of-court proceedings" we have ANI. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:33, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Yikes. BHG, this is not at all a fair legal process, and you are absolutely wrong to imply that justice is free for a targeted person being criminalized in Wikipedia. The target is criminalized, dragged down, in an ANI proceeding, or in CFD or AFD, where the target does not enjoy participating and it is hugely demanding and cost-imposing. While it may be enjoyable, or is at least less repugnant, for the accuser(s). It is effectively way too easy, too free of cost, for the follower/critic/accuser(s) to open multiple "trials", imposing costs on a target in Wikipedia. In the U.S. legal system there are counters: a plaintiff has to pay fees, and incur legal costs that they may never recover, and they risk getting deemed by a judge to be frivolous/nuisance. In many civil and other courts a judge can rule the frivolous plaintiff to have wasted the defendant's time and the court's time, and to fine the plaintiff, even requiring the plaintiff to pay all the defendant's legal fees plus a further fine. It is absurd to suggest that this ANI court is free, or that DRV or other appeals courts are free for the target. --doncram 00:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC) (p.s. BHG i replied above to your last posts above.)

ANI is an arduous process for anyone involved (and so ArbCom many times more so), but DRV and MR are lightweight for the petitioner. All they need to do is to write an opening statement, and let it roll. The person being held to account is the closer, not the petitioner (who can do more if they choose, but many don't).

In this case it would be a lot less work for Skookum1 to open move reviews than to continue writing at length about the alleged injustices in multiple forums. Not only would it provide an answer one way or another to some of his grievances, it would also allow other discussions to focus on the issue in hand, reducing stress on everyone including Skookum1.

The practice of breaking down problems and trying to fix them one at a time is a crucial tool for solving all sorts of problems. Not doing that is what leads to the patterns of conflict which come to ANI.

I think it is a fundamental mistake to view XFD as in any way "criminalising". Much better to regard them as a form of interactive peer review.

Similar processes are familiar to people writing in many other contexts. As a student, my writing was dissected twice a week in tutorials, by fellow-students briefed on how to find holes in my work. As a policy analyst, my colleagues and I performed destructive testing on every piece of writing any of us produced; we canned a significant chunk of each others work, and sent. As a journalist, every piece of work was dissected in an editorial conference, where justifying is existence and content was part of the job.

I think that one of the very big problems Wikipedia faces is that this sort of scrutiny is an essential part of quality control, but many enthusiastic editors lack experience of working in this way. We don't do enough to convey how important it is, or to assist editors in learning the techniques required. When I first started editing, every edit page used to warn editors with words something like "your contribution may be edited without mercy". Those words may have been a bit harsh, but it's a pity we no longer have something in a similar vein to remind contributors that we are not here as bloggers. We are collaboratively developing the world's most widely-read encyclopedia, and editors should expect that any contribution may be challenged, debated, modified, or even removed. Editors who just want to be "left alone" are in the wrong place. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: You say: “I think it is a fundamental mistake to view XFD as in any way "criminalising". Much better to regard them as a form of interactive peer review.” However your actions do not support your words above since you seem to have tendency to pursue editors whom you disagree with at CFD to other areas of Wikipedia.

Here are a couple of examples:

• User_talk:Ottawahitech#Category:CNBC_women
• Wikipedia_talk:Canadian_Wikipedians'_notice_board/Archive_20#What_sort_of_edits_are_acceptable_on_Scotiabank

XOttawahitech (talk) 14:36, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

@Ottawahitech: Nice try, but beware of WP:BOOMERANG.

My post about CNBC women was a warning[45] to you about your WP:IDHT problem, which was taking you into the tendentious editing territory. If you want to pursue this, I can set out the full history ... but for now, note that I reminded you afterwards[46] that the category was deleted, and that there was a consistent consensus against such categories.

As to WP:CANWP, I posted there because another editor started a new thread on my talk page, where they asked me as an admin to comment on a dispute. I replied on my talk about the policy issues, and as promised there I posted to WP:CANTALK explicitly noting that I had been asked to comment[47]. The issue in that case was that you were abusing a talk page as a WP:SOAPBOX, to push your POV. I asked you to discuss the issue on the article's talk page[48]. You refused[49].

That's a series of boomerangs you have launched. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:42, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: First I would like to thank you for letting me me know my feedback is important to you. I would also like to state that, even if it appears otherwise to you, I don’t believe that you are acting in bad faith, at least not intentionally. I think you are overworked, like most active admins on Wikipedia, and you just don’t have the time to check things out carefully before rushing to impose solutions.

You try to do too much, continuing to create hundreds of categories, while at the same time participating in discussion about deleting categories created by others (COI?), and branching out to other areas of adminship that involve blocking and “telling” off other editors. I don’t believe you take enough time to truly investigate situations before taking sides in disputes, but , at least in my book, that does not make you as bad as a few admins/established editors here who taunt, harass and stalk other editors on purpose strictly out of malice. I do hope you become cognizant the fact that your actions as an admin are highly visible, and as such contribute to the persecution of editors who happen to get caught in your path.

This is not the time and place to respond to accusations against me personally, but I would like to state that as far as WP:BOOMERANG ( a Wikipedia essay about editors who report others to Wikipedia notice boards) that in all my years at Wikipedia I have never reported anyone. XOttawahitech (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

@Ottawahitech: Stop being silly. The boomerang is that you piggybacked on this thread to make complaints about me, and simply highlighted your own misuse of a discussion forum for soapboxing, and your own habit of repeatedly creating categories of a type which you know there is a consensus to delete. Rather than retracting that, you try to shift the ground to a general slur. Not nice.

Indeed, my actions as an admin are highly visible. One of the consequences is that is some editors try to do what you have been doing, i.e. looking for some muck to throw. Enjoy that sport if you like, but you'd do better at if you took more time to figure out what you are actually launching. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

No you didn't report anyone just tried to derail another discussion with your soapbox...same thing! Mrfrobinson (talk) 20:52, 23 March 2014 (UTC) 16:24, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Um...why, exactly, are we using inflammatory and loaded words like "crimilizing" and comparing this to a criminal trial? The facts here are simple. Skookum1 has a well-established pattern of vehemently attacking editors who disagree with his positions, making clear and unambiguous personal attacks (calling them bigoted, stating they are mentally deficient, and etc. etc.). He also utterly refuses to accept that his behavior is unacceptable. This is not bullying, it is enforcing policy, and unless we want to send the message (yet again) that if you're a "content contributor" than even the Five Pillars don't apply to you, we need to do somthing about it, even if it's a sternly-worded last and final warning (which was, in fact, the original point of this ANI filing). And we absolutley need to avoid sending the message that an editor can get out of being sanctioned for flaunting policy by claiming that they're being "bullied". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:13, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Learning how AN/Is operate has been vaguely educational, but this is clearly going nowhere. While nonbinding, perhaps the suggestion of an RfC/U makes more sense, especially if a only warning or mentorship is being proposed. No editor thus far has been able to get through to Skookum1 that uncivil behavior is not acceptable. -Uyvsdi (talk) 02:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

@Uyvsdi: This may be going nowhere. But whatever the decision (or non-decision) here, I strongly urge that those who have been opposing sanctions against Skookum1 to see if there is some way in which they can assist him to find a new way of working so that he can experience debates more positively. Call it mentorship, or helping hand, or a quiet word behind the scenes, or whatever. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:44, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

User:The Bushranger has zero credibility regarding what does or doesn't constitutue unambiguous personal attacks ([...] stating they are mentally deficient [...]). And BrownHairedGirl, Skookum1's desire to "be left alone" isn't a rejection of the concept of fundamental WP content discussion with editor peers as you suggest, but obviously having his time & attention as voluntary expert contributor being sucked down a black hole through miserable, manufactured, demoralizing, demonizing complaints from editors miffed by him at some point then getting payback in cesspool let's-set-him-up-for-an-indef-block threads like this one. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:37, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Spookem1`s defense that he is being harassed is not going to stop him from being blocked, in my view. He should be blocked for his repeated, after-warning, Personal attacks. Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 14:06, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Forgive me for saying so, but given your self-described status as a "Advanced stealth fighter in operation Wikipedia Enduring Freedom," you're not the guy I'm gonna be marching behind on this matter. Carrite (talk) 15:26, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

@Carrite It`s OK, I have no friends on wiki, I'm always giving points that no one agrees with. I'm used to being alone and respectfully told that I am not agreed with. Continuing on then: This user has been warned/blocked numerous times, he has been givin his chance and has not taken it (he is still committing Personal attacks), showing some sort of possible WP:NOTHERE intent, I recommend blocking. Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 16:03, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Please do not make unsubstantiated accusations of bad faith and personal attacks. Thank you. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:42, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

If Skookum has valid grievances against other users, why has it not been brought to the proper forums, with diffs? This has been pointed out over and over. Without diffs, these are, at best, merely wild accusations, conspiracy theories, and ad hominem attacks. —Neotarf (talk) 06:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, when Skookum1 is asked to provide diffs to back up accusations he is making, that particular thread of conversation abruptly stops. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Where are the diffs

@The Bushranger: You say above that User:Skookum1 has not provided diffs, but neither have you.

It appears that even though you are the one who started this this whole ani-thread you feel you are above providing support for your accusations. This is a mystery since your complaint is taking an enormous toll on the community, and to me at least, is looking more and more like a Witch-hunt than anything else. Your very short opening remarks talk vaguely about another ANI (which?) and alludes to behavior by Skookum1 which is not supported by one single diff. It seems that the whole basis for your complaint is that Skookum has rejected your “attempt to provide a caution and a suggestion for calming the waters”.

As an uninvolved editor it seems to me that you feel that Skookum1 should automatically defer to you. Since I have not had any(?) dealings with you I do not understand why you expect other editors to automatically defer to your suggestions.

Respectfully, XOttawahitech (talk) 13:48, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Did you see the diffs he provided in his opening statement?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

As Obiwankenobi says, please re-read the opening statement for diffs. And if anybody wants specific further diffs from the thoroughly PA-laden CFD, all they have to do is ask and they shall receive, although it would only be a slight exaggeration to say there would be fewer diffs from that that did not have PAs. The previous ANI is here (and as it happens, also here from 2007, demonstrating that this is not a new problem and has only gotten worse). The accusation that I "expect other editors to automatically defer to [my] suggestions" is wholly unfounded. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

An attempt at a summary

Let me try again. (1) Everyone agrees that Skookum needs to start being nice fast or he is going to be out the door for disruptive behavior. (2) Everyone agrees that Skookum is a productive, expert content-writer who is here to build an encyclopedia. (3) Some people think Skookum feels persecuted, particularly in deletion discussions, and lashes out — a correctable situation; others think this behavior is a fundamental personality trait and that collaborative work is impossible for him. (4) Some people think this is already a lost cause; others think there needs to be some sort of active mentoring process to turn this downward spiral around. (5) While all agree that it is enormously annoying that this situation continues to continue, most people think that further blocking or banning sanctions are not justified at this time. Fair enough summary? Carrite (talk) 16:38, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Additional note: I've been in touch with Skookum off wiki. He strikes me as rational, and no, the emails are not 20,000 words each. I'll volunteer as "behind the scenes advisor" if such is desired. Carrite (talk) 16:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

My question is: How long will we keep giving him more leash?! We should at least give him a final warning, because he has been given way more chances then he should get. It seems he can get away with no block or maybe a couple hour long block at best. Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 16:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

We're not dealing with a child that is going to be impressed by "final warnings." He'll either figure out how to disagree with people without throwing cinderblocks or he won't. Obviously he doesn't have infinite time to start doing this... Carrite (talk) 17:18, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Skookums is not required to be nice. Hell be abbrassive all day, the line is only crossed when talking about other individuals either obliquely or directly. If the attacks on other contributers stop, it would be a huge step forward. That is the primary problem, though getting the individual to actually collaborate is also high on the list. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:06, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Carrite (talk) 17:18, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Not quite. WP:CIVIL is a policy, and a long-standing one. Civility involves a lot more than simply refraining from attacks. NPA would be a good start, but that alone isn't enough. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes but I have no known exampled of civility ever being something that gets someone banned since it is subjective. I have seen more than a few people at ANI for civility and those always putter out. I would like Skookums to be more civil but if we work on one thing at a time we might see improvements. Tivanir2 (talk) 19:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• I have tried reading Skookum's material. It's utterly exhausting. It's nothing but petty accusations against other editors. It goes on and on...and on some more. I don't what the solution is, but somebody's gotta make it stop. This situation has gotten completely out of hand. Two from one (talk) 02:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit-warring, ownership and censorship by editor Director on the article "Jews and Communism"

I realise it is only a few days since Jews and Communism was last the subject of a discussion here but things nave not improved there,quite the contrary. User Director repeatedly reverts anything that does not meet his approval, often leaving edit summaries along the lines of "achieve consensus" or "discuss on talk page" but there is little point in doing that since the only result will be that he will say something along the lines of "I am opposed" so therefore there is no consensus as far as he is concerned and he will put the article back to his version. Here are his reverts of this last week - Lots of arguments going on about whether to call Karl Marx Jewish, Director insists that his version is the only acceptable one and it must include a statement about his being descended from rabbis - he reverts Pharos -[50] - reverts me with an edit summary "I'm sorry, but I don't see it." [51], reverts user Galassi [52], reverts Galassi again [53], reverts Izak [54], reverts Soman [55], not exactly a revert but re -inserts material removed by Soman [56], reverts Galassi [57], reverts me [58]. The last straw for me, and why I reluctantly come to this massive waste of time board, is that editor Pharos went to a lot of trouble to revise some highly disputed content, listening to what other editors had said, expanded the material and moved it to an appropriate place and Director removed it all, every word.[59] On the talk page he said "I oppose"it, which he obviously believes is a good enough reason why it should not be in the article.[60] Director stated earlier today on the talk page that he believes himself to be facing Americans who have a different understanding of communism than the rest of the world and that he is engaged in a struggle for WP articles to "liberate (themselves) from the shadow of the circus that is American politics."[61] Director has advised editor Galassi to "go away"[62] and to me has suggested that I "take (my) political POV elsewhere"[63]. He has his supporters on the article, he is not the only one reverting others, I have done it myself, there are definitely two very entrenched "sides" on this highly contentious article, but Director refuses to move towards any consensus or compromise. There are some editors such as Pharos and Soman who are "in the middle" of the two sides, one might say, and try to accommodate all views, but Director will censor them too. I believe Director should be prohibited from editing this article, his approach is directly opposite to WP ideas of consensus. I ask that at least he should receive a warning.Smeat75 (talk) 17:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Having looked at the article's revision history, it looks at though the difficult POV-pusher is Smeat75 (though he/she is not alone).

This seems to be a typical edit by Smeat75 and his/her allies.[64] It seeks to erase Karl Marx's Jewishness! The edit summary is "revise to neutral version"!

After Galassi reinserted it, Iryna Harpy reverted it again, saying "Reverted 1 edit by Galassi (talk): Rv Not only are the refs contentious, but have turned the lead into a non-lead WP:POV travesty. See talk page."

Maybe Smeat75 should be given a topic ban.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. I see a tendency by a tag-team of Direktor and Producer to insinuate that Communism is a Jewish invention. Both of them refuse to seek consensus, and cherrypick quotes to push a POV, disregarding the errors in citations which would normally disqualify these citations as RS.--Galassi (talk) 18:49, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Galassi disagrees? Well, Galassi, seeing as how you're the resident edit-warring proxy for Smeat75, with virtually no involvement on the talkpage, pardon me if I don't collapse out of shock.

Galassi's involvement on the article cann be summed up entirely as "revert Director whenever you see him editing". -- Director (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Reply to Toddy1 above - that was cited to a RS that said Karl Marx was a baptized Lutheran and I am far from the only one saying that on the talk page. I kept saying that sentence about Marx should not be in the lead because it was not discussed in the article, against WP:LEAD. Anyway that doesn't matter as Pharos did a lot of work and expanded the Marx information to a neutral and accurate version which I would certainly not have quarreled with, moved it out of the lead and into the body of the article and Director reverted every word, that is why I am here.Smeat75 (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat75, you have conveniently omitted the fact that you'd blanked other RS and overwritten it with as simplistic statement regarding Marx's Lutheran baptism, plus added that he was a 'classic antisemite' based on a single source all compressed into a single sentence. The source for the 'antisemite' allegation was WP:CHERRY based on this Professor of law's credibility having been established within the scope of the area of law, whereas the RS you selected was essentially a personal opinion piece by him which has been widely criticised.

I am in agreement with Toddy1's evaluation. You seem incapable of being able to approach the subject matter in a rational manner, and have demonstrated no interest in even attempting to. You persist in pointing your finger at anyone who doesn't agree with you as being part of a conspiracy of some sort or another, even where there has been no working relationship between contributors prior the recent outbreak of disparate interest groups/POV pushers. I am of the serious opinion that you should be topic banned. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat75 has no regard whatsoever for discussion or consensus, he just thinks those who revert his content blanking should be banned from annoying him. I mean, if he posts enough sections on ANI demanding his opponents be removed from his presence, someone's bound to sanction them, right? I imagine after this, it'll be the turn of Pluto2012, Iryna Harpy, Producer, and all the rest who are opposed to his (frankly nonsensical) edits. Really though, this is basically Smeat75 "dealing" with his inability to push his edits into the article. Neither discussion nor edit-warring helped, how about another "Ban Director!" section? -- Director (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The reason why I brought this here is because you removed painstaking, highly excellent sourced content added by Pharos, not me.[65]. You already tried, and failed, to get USChick, Galassi, Izak and others removed from editing the article, you will not even allow compromises to be made by editors like Pharos who are "in the middle". Smeat75 (talk) 19:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The edit that was removed was introduced without consensus, amid active opposition on the talkpage. The posting editor didn't seem to read the discussion and/or didn't care that elaborating on that topic is opposed on grounds of being miles outside the scope.

I'm sure Pharos was merely doing what he thought was best for resolving the matter, i.e. "resolve the issue by elaborating on it in enough detail". Unfortunately, elaborating on the issue in detail takes us outside the scope. The best thing to do is to leave it out. -- Director (talk) 19:08, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• Note for an admin- I got an edit conflict which I tried to fix and think I inadvertently removed a couple of other comments. I don't know how to try to fix that without possibly messing things up more, can someone look into that. ThanksSmeat75 (talk) 19:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

(Restore EC removed comment) I do not see a consensus for the changes noted by Smeat75. I suggest an RFC be opened, and Smeat75 consider WP:DEADLINE. JoeSperrazza (talk) 2:56 pm, Today (UTC−4)

Further comment: This edit summary [66] is misleading at best. JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, I have to state that the irony of Smeat75's ANI title is too much to keep a straight face over. Given the recent ANI-turned-fiasco over this same article where he declared, "Jews and Communism" is a terrible, terrible article, blatant anti-Semitism imo, unfortunately I did not know about it when it was proposed for deletion, not that it would have made any difference I suppose, but admins are not going to do anything about that. As the AfD failed, there is nothing to do but try to improve the article, hopefully this thread will have brought the article to the attention of others as it did me..., his/her purported interest in 'improving' the article smacks of disingenuousness. My involvement in the article has been limited to keeping an eye out for POV pushes, and I believe I've clearly stated my position more than once as to Smeat75's interest as a WP:COI desire to redact the article into oblivion[67]. The nature of changes to the lead alone were pure POV turning the article into a parody of an encyclopaedic entry per my responses on the talk page [68].

JoeSperrazza, while I can appreciate that you are a neutral editor, I think you may see my concern with envisaging a reasonable, rational RfC if you take a look at the very, very recent ANI, and at the article's corresponding talk page. An RfC can only be viable where those seeking consensus are genuinely interested in developing a good and informative article are the mainstay of such an RfC. Holding an RfC at this point in time will only encourage yet more protracted, convoluted and plain disruptive tracts of WP:IDONTLIKEIT by interest groups antithetical to the existence of the article intent on wearing down good faith contributors. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Expanding on that. Smeat consistently projects onto other users as claiming nonsense like the "first the Jews killed Christ then they killed Christ's representative on earth, the Tsar" [69] and states that users like Altenmann (talk · contribs) and I promote extremist "memes" and push a "straightforward anti-Semitic slur". [70][71] He criticizes others for their wording of sourced information yet his only alternative to throw it straight out the window based on him feeling "disturbed". [72] Smeat clearly lacks the ability to refrain from such absurd behavior and continues to try to associate other users with malicious statements or views in an effort to portray them as anti-semites and get his way. He even employs legal rhetoric and claims that he's stopping users from pushing "libel". [73] --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 09:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

In this edit Smeat75 changed two posts by DIREKTOR, and deleted one by JoeSperrazza and one by Toddy1. He said at 19:48, 19 April 2014 that this was due to an edit conflict. I do not see how that can be true. DIREKTOR you may wish to restore your posts to what they were before Smeat75 changed them.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:32, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Well it was due to me trying to fix something that had happened due to an edit conflict and if I had been trying to do something malicious I don't think I would come back to the page and leave a note to say I accidentally removed some comments, can someone look into it.Smeat75 (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Have you thought of looking at the diff, and changing things back?--Toddy1 (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I did look at it and decided that I did not trust myself not to mess things up even more if I tried to change it back, which is why I left a note asking an admin to look into it.Smeat75 (talk) 20:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I entirely agree with Smeat75. If you look at the article's history page, it's hard not to see the systematic censorship by Director. One example is the section titled "Critical reception and conspiracy theories" discussing analysts of antisemitic conspiracy theories related to the concept of 'Jews and Communism'. Director unjustifiably deleted links and] information from that section, most specifically Template:Antisemitism which he deleted multiple times here, here, and here, claiming the article has to be "part of a series on antisemitism" in order to be included, which every experienced editor (an he's one) knows is wrong, and I have even explained that the article is clearly related to the subject and it's exactly the right place for its use. Yambaram (talk) 12:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Director just continues repeatedly reverting others' contributions (not by me, I have had more than I can stand at that article for a while) with edit summaries such as "opposed to this" - reverts sourced material by Soman - [74] by Soman again - [75] and again [76] - reverts Pharos [77] and pays no attention to any discussion on the talk page (not from me there either in the last few days).Smeat75 (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, reverts another user today [78] with an edit summary "Rv. This recent addition ... is opposed." - translation, Director does not approve of it. "Discuss your edit on talk please." - there would not be any point in doing that, if Director answered at all, he would only say it was not going to be allowed. Why is he permitted to control the content of the article in this way?Smeat75 (talk) 17:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat I'm sympathetic to some of your concerns regarding this article. However, this seems to be a content dispute. Also it appears to me that the very existence of this article bothers you. I understand that too, but apparently that has also been dealt with. Coretheapple (talk) 17:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see any admin action helping the conditions over there, although if the edit warring continues I would consider locking the article so they can either discuss it or do nothing. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 18:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I think that, as in a lot of situations, the article simply needs more eyes focused on it. I have to say that I was surprised the article exists, and after reading it I am even more surprised. It is the kind of article that brings Wikipedia into disrepute. But I just simply am not seeing a user conduct issue here, as far as I can see. Perhaps I've missed it. No, to me there is a deeper problem, which is that one has an article at all of this kind. I thought the top illustration was especially repugnant. Coretheapple (talk) 18:47, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I've just tagged the article for neutrality, as I feel that is the principal problem with the article. Let's see what happens now. I have never edited this article before, so I don't know what the dynamics are. I do know that there is a clear neutrality issue that has not been very clearly articulated. If there are indeed user conduct issues, perhaps they will now emerge. If not, they won't.Coretheapple (talk) 19:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Passover

NOTE to participating and closing admins: The final two days of the Jewish Passover holiday are from Sunday night April 20th, 2014 to Tuesday night April 22nd, 2014, that will make it very difficult for Jewish and Judaic editors to participate properly in this discussion during this time. The post-Passover days are also a traditionally very harried time. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Page protection at Bundy standoff

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I protected the article Bundy standoff (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for ten days as a result of a content dispute. I received a request on my user talk page by user:DHeyward (not a party to the content dispute) to reduce or remove the protection. I have repeatedly stated that I would be happy to remove page protection earlier than it is set to expire if consensus is reached on the article talk page. Not happy with my initial response, they have also posted the request at WP:RFPP and at WP:AN#Bundy standoff requesting that the page protection be reduced or removed - the arguments have included claims that the page protection was done outside of process[79], questioning my competence in the use of page protection[80], and now arguing that my actions were out of line because I never stated how I learned of the content dispute in the first place[81] (for the record, I came across the content dispute via Special:RecentChanges).

This has resulted in concurrent discussions at all three forums. I have requested at RFPP and AN to keep discussions on a single forum of their choice - or better yet, to start a discussion on the article talk page to resolve the initial content dispute; but they continue to post at both RFPP and my user talk page. As it's not productive to have concurrent discussions about the same subject in multiple forums, I have elected to choose this forum for further discussion. All future responses by me in the other forums will be to direct them to this one. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 04:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

There was apparently an initial discussion on the noticeboard here [82]. Barek did not comment before enacting a ten day Full protection on the page. I requested that he reduce the level and/or time for the protection on his talk page as this is a current event. I requested the page protection be reduced at RFPP as Barek did not reply immediately and failed to properly template the page (indicating unfamiliarity) . It seems the edit war is really a two party dispute over a minor aspect and would be better handled with 3RR and edit warring rather than labeling a minor 2 party dispute as a "content dispute." The result of Full PP is to reward one party of the edit war with a preferred version. It is obvious that editor sanctions are more productive than page protection when the dispute is so narrow. Thousands of Wikipedians are thwarted when a 3RR block or semi-protected or 1 day full PP would suffice. This article is a current event and freezing it to an editors preferred version is counterproductive. I am not a party to the dispute but recognize that the actions of Barek have limited everyone from participation in any capacity. It is not a solution to eliminate participation because two editors violate 3RR policy. --DHeyward (talk) 05:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd like you to read No personal attacks. The indicating unfamiliarity implies that the admin is inferior to his job and is therefore a personal attack. Second, the 'lock icon' is usually added automatically by a bot, and admins just let the bot take care of it. However, the bot does not have sysop (admin) privileges, and cannot edit the page to add the icon. (But do you really need it? It doesn't add much anywho.) Tutelary (talk) 06:12, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Implying that someone did not perform a task according to the rules is not the same a stating "You are inferior". If reasonably and calmly questioning the decisions and technical implementations of an admin becomes an example of a Personal Attack, then WP is well and truly f*cked. Eaglizard (talk) 20:49, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

As I've said elsewhere, DHeyward can be part of the solution if they choose. Instead of looking for process technicalities and making accusations of admin competence, the most productive solution is to start a discussion on the article talk page (since the start of the protection, DHeyward has not made a single comment on the article talk page - not about the content dispute nor any other content). It's certainly not DHeyward's responsibility to resolve; but parties who have an interest in the article forming a consensus on the material would be the most productive solution to both remove protection early as well as avoiding future disruption from the same content dispute.

That said, if another admin wants to reduce the total duration to three or five days, we can certainly reduce it - and if the content dispute resumes, re-protect the article again. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:08, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

@Barek: I apologize if you took my actions as being against you personally or even as an admin. The template is important because it tells users (especially new users) where to go to get protection lifted. The first place is the admin's talk page. Second place is RFPP. The WP:AN entry was already in place by another editor so I noted it there. I didn't forum shop this or drag out beyond the the places that are specifically created for this. I think we may differ on what is a "content dispute" and what is an "edit war" and that's my impetus for getting the PP lowered. In my mind, "content disputes" involve a large number of editors that are reverting each other and no one is violating 3RR. It looks like a 5 on 5 match. Page protection stops it in the least disruptive fashion. "Edit wars" involve 1 or 2 editors that are breaking rules with multiple reverts, personal attacks, etc. The least disruptive method is editor sanctions to stop their disruption. In this case, I saw only an "edit war" which is why I requested it be lowered. I didn't consider that you took the action out of process, rather the action itself was not achieving the goal it's intended too. It's a judgement call and I hope you can see that my request wasn't malicious or personal in any way. I don't consider your decision for full PP to be malicious or personal, either, and it's clearly a tool outlined for content disputes. --DHeyward (talk) 05:00, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

• Proposed Reduce protection to 30-days semi-protection and place article under general sanctions for 60 days. Any uninvolved administrator may impose sanctions on any editor disrupting that article with escalating blocks, a topic ban, or restrictions on editing such as a 1RR.--v/r - TP 17:13, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems fair, though 1RR for the article is probably justified anyway - WP:BRD needs to be followed and disruption of the actual content kept to a minimum. Guy (Help!) 17:42, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Works for me. --DHeyward (talk) 20:50, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi is supposed to only be for vandalism. It should not be used to make an enrolled user win a content dispute over an IP editor. Unless there's persistent IP vandalism from multiple addresses (which happens, but I don't think I saw it claimed for this article), the article should be either unprotected or full protected. Have we forgotten this? 70.36.142.114 (talk) 22:23, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with semi (because there's no indication of IP abuse; the existing protection is due to a content dispute where no talk page consensus yet exists). However, I support the other implementations of 60-day general sanctions, and would support 1RR on the article as well. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:25, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

This was the content dispute that you protected the article for [83]. It's summed up completely with an IP contributions. I count 4 reverts by this IP, no warning, and page protection as your remedy. I don't see any other issues involving a "content dispute." It was on the main noticeboard and was dropped because of your page protection but you didn't note it there. One of the editors the IP was reverting actually made Talk Page comments [84]. It's pretty clear that the IP isn't looking for consensus and the other editor engage him multiple times without 3RR violation. Also the IP editor was asked to create an account because IP hopping made it hard to follow their edits and commets [85] --DHeyward (talk) 01:29, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The point of semi-protection is that it means only logged-in editors can edit, which means that we can identify and block anybody who edit-wars and they cannot immediately walk around the block. It allows the article to be editable while reducing the disruption caused by drive-by anonymous edits. Guy (Help!) 16:28, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Agree with TParis as to what steps need to be implemented.--MONGO 01:38, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

There is content discussion at User talk:70.8.153.27 that more property should have been on the article talk page. It's in the wrong place but it's incorrect to to say that 70.8.153.27 wasn't engaging in discussion. The points being made on both sides were reasonable, even if the tone wasn't the greatest. I can't do it right now and will be away for several days, but it would be nice if someone could explain things like 3RR to the person (and block if necessary) rather than going overboard with protection and general sanctions. The problem seems quite localized. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 02:57, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• Comment by User:Barek I have just seen the following comment at User talk:Barek, and I guess it applies here.

I also have a request (for you or anyone who reads this). I am travelling again for work, and may not have PC access again until Thursday or Friday this week. And, unfortunately, my phone seems to hate editing ANI. Can someone post over there that I am fine with any admin implementing and logging of general sanctions from that ANI thread - no need to await further input from me, nor to drag out further due to my internet access issues. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Note

• There is no content dispute. I would like to add a general observation to this discussion. As I am not an admin, I have had time for the luxury of reviewing hundreds of edits to this article over the period of 13 April until 19 April, when page protection was applied. I could not find any evidence of an actual content dispute. I found NO examples of contentious or disruptive editing (other than some unrepeated vandalism). Even the edit summaries were shockingly free of snark or argument. Nearly every single edit seemed a consensual improvement to the article. I did not find a single case of an editor -- not even the IP editor who tried to add Infowars as a source -- not one editor repeatedly tried to insert material that had been rejected by other editors. No particular section was ever repeatedly worked over by a editor or group of editors in apparent opposition to another editor or group of editors. Not one single time (with one exception). The last 5 edits not made by an admin are the single edit war I found, in which an IP and a confirmed editor flirted with (but did not violate) 3RR. In general, I must congratulate every single editor of this article, as I find it to be a sterling example of exactly how WP is supposed to work. I'm afraid I must conclude that the page protection was premature, and inappropriate for this instance. (That'll be 0.02USD, please.) Eaglizard (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Close this out?

@TParis:, @JzG: can we move on this and remove the page protection? General sanctions for 60 days, escalating blocks and 1RR restrictions seem to have consensus. I'd opt for no protection as semi-protection has some objections raised by IP contributors, and it can always be added. If there is more IP issues, edit warring can be handled with progressive blocks. If IP hopping becomes an issue, then raise to semi-protection. --DHeyward (talk) 04:34, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

All it takes is an uninvolved administrator to close it out. I proposed the sanctions so I'm on shaky ground. Not really involved, but debatable.--v/r - TP 05:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

In my reading of the above, I see no objections to general sanctions as suggested, the only objections were to semi-protection. With that said, I'll work on formally implementing this at the article and on WP:GS. I haven't been involved in this discussion or the article before this point so I should be considered uninvolved. -- Atama頭 23:02, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I made an entry at WP:GS#Sanctions placed by the Wikipedia community, I added a log here for people to log offenders and remedies, I created a template on the article talk page, and closed the above. I think this is all that's needed, please message me if I left anything out or otherwise messed something up. -- Atama頭 00:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

There is one thing I forgot to do... Remove page protection. I've now done so at the article. -- Atama頭 01:55, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two perhaps related issues involving LordFixit

There is a rather contentious discussion going on concerning the deletion of Category:Organizations designated as hate groups by the SPLC here. I discovered this morning that User:StAnselm had struck out all edits of User:LordFixit in the discussion (diff). I reverted this because a quick look at LordFixit's talk page didn't show the usual notices for this sort of action. HoweverI found that User:Jpgordon had indeed indefinitely blocked LF for "Abusing multiple accounts". I see no sockpuppet investigation or other proceedings so I'm puzzled as to what is going on here.

That said, I am having issues with LordFixit's conduct in this discussion, particularly this threat: "If the category stays, I will make sure all articles have the SPLC listing with a source in the body of the article." It seems to me that that such a promise to disregard consensus is an unacceptable statement of ownership. Mangoe (talk) 19:00, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

That wasn't a threat. He was promising to make sure that all articles in the category were properly sourced to show that they wre on the SPLC list. That seems to be a good thing, not a bad thing. The block was a CU block, see User talk:Exposed101. Dougweller (talk) 19:21, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

It's a block by a CU, not an official declared "checkuser block", for what it's worth. Looks like a good hand/bad hand attempt. I've got a short fuse for those, perhaps. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 19:30, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I suspect that all of the controversial cases are already so tagged because of the notability of the controversy, but however correct such a designation would be (and technically, using the SPLC itself as the sole source would be questionable), in context it comes across as a threat. Mangoe (talk) 02:19, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I am a bit confused here policywise. Folks are striking all edits of his in that article, as though they were posted in violation of a ban. As Exposed101 didn't even start editing until April 19, LordFixit was not in any violation that I know of when he made most of those comments. Is there something that makes them inherently invalid now? --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:22, 20 April 2014 (UTC) added: oh, and as an editor that raised concerns about groups being misplaced into this category, I will confirm what Dougweller said: this was a good faith attempt to address concerns and not a threat to commit ownership. -Nat Gertler (talk) 20:27, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm also noticing another editor here, and I see from his talkpage that I'm not the only one who sees possible connections:

Drowninginlimbo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

He appeared abruptly, settled into some of the same topics, and is also a participant in the CfD. Mangoe (talk) 16:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I've personally observed Drowninginlimbo's editing habits and have found them to be mainly oriented around gender. This is not something that is strange, as SPLC does some distinctive work for some things related to gender. Anywho, is there anything you wish to claim about the user, Mangoe? Tutelary (talk) 16:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Your edit summary stated "another suspicious account", however, I was personally involved in Exposed101's blocking. This whole thing is very strange. For one thing, I live in an entirely different city to the one listed on LordFixit's user page. Yes, I am involved in the CfD. I follow the Southern Poverty Law Center and am interested in civil rights. I have to say, did you really have to drag this to the ANI? If I were a sockpuppet I would have been picked up by the checkuser. Are you suggesting that every user that voted oppose deletion is checked against each other, as well as every user who voted support deletion? That would take a while but maybe it would stop sidetracking the discussion - Drowninginlimbo (talk) 17:23, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

See WP:Oh I say, what are you doing? Come down from there at once! Really, you're making a frightful exhibition of yourself Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:51, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

@Mangoe: If you were concerned about the block, why didn't you ask Jpgordon on his user talk page instead of taking it to ANI? Also, you realize that as a CheckUser, if Jpgordon was looking at Exposed101's data (and it looked like he did according to this) then he would have seen Drowninginlimbo as a connection as well, but clearly that did not happen. And finally, I compared Drowninginlimbo and LordFixit behaviorally, and they don't seem particularly connected (really, out of over 1,000 contributions from each editor they only had a few editing overlaps and their edit summary usage is different, among other things). -- Atama頭 16:11, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't recall why I decided to go here from the start but having done so the conversation needed to stay here. If nobody sees any issue with DIL then I think we're done here. Mangoe (talk) 20:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Are you not going to apologise? Your accusation was lazily researched and disruptive --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:J. Johnson

JJ has engaged in the sort of behavior at Earthquake prediction that is described at WP:LISTEN. Looking at the past year of that article's revision history, it looks like JJ has exerted ownership over the article by reverting any edits by editors other than himself, and engaging in filibustering and wikilawyering on the talk page (by which I mean lengthy citations of policy which evade the issue at hand.) In this way he has driven away other editors and thwarted any attempt at collaborative editing. He received a warning on March 22 about edit warring[86], and the article is presently protected from editing.

I initiated a discussion at the talk page about what I felt was the use of non-neutral language which gave the article an editorializing tone[87], and followed that up with a request for comment on a particular formulation that I thought was representative of the problem.[88] The response to the RfC was that 6 editors supported one formulation, and JJ supported the other. JJ's reaction is indicative of the problem I wish to raise here. He simply dismissed arguments offered by the other editors, and asserted that other editors merely "dislike" his version.[89] He also characterized the opinions of other editors as "whining,"[90][91][92], and the RfC process as a "lynching."[93] He states ironically, "Why don't we just revert the entire article back to the piece of crap it was before I rewrote it?" [94] Finally, in response to a message I left on his talk page, he says, "You and the others may be thinking you have a solid basis, but as I keep showing: you don't."[95]

Hopefully, these examples are sufficient to illustrate the problem. I would like to see some sort of intervention. I don't know what you normally do in a case like this. Maybe a topic ban would be appropriate. Joe Bodacious (talk) 22:29, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

An almost identical situation with J. Johnson is occurring at 2014 Oso mudslide and at the article talk page. Filibustering, refusal to actually discuss, berating, finger-wagging, insults in edit summaries, personal attacks, and wholesale reversions of blocks of new or copyedited content he doesn't like. He's issued ultimatums and threatened that if they weren't met, he would revert everything again. Not long ago, at the mudslide article, he actually and seriously suggested we all join him in supporting a topic ban of a brand new editor. I hesitated to mention ownership issues with him in case I was just reading him wrong. Now with the above complaint from Joe, I see I'm not alone in my assessment. It's been going on at the mudslide article for a couple of weeks, now (along with the other troubling behaviors I mentioned). -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:43, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Winkelvi comes with "unclean hands", his misrepresentations being more reflective of his own behavior at 2014 Oso mudslide. If they are to admitted into consideration here then they really should be examined closely, as they are, basically, untrue. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:09, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

J. Johnson (JJ) and Winkelvi, your arguments are likely to carry more weight if you provide diffs to support them. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 12:21, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not here to pile on JJ, I'm here to support Joe Bodacious in his concerns by saying "It's happening with him elsewhere within Wikipedia, too". I provided a couple of diffs in my comments yesterday, so if an administrator or anyone else in interested in getting a general idea of what I'm referring to, they can. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 21:05, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Certainly, if such arguments are to be allowed into the discussion. Joe limited his charges to Earthquake prediction, where the dissension is (I believe) in good-faith all around, and also quite enough to handle as it is. Winkelvi is opportunistically opening a battleground where his own behavior is dubious, and even if I should solidly demonstrate this its relevance to EP is slight. To simultaneously try to expand the discussion while also demanding an immediate response is unreasonable. He says he is not here to pile on me, but it is not apparent what other connection he has here.

I will respond to Winkelvi's charges if some admin requests, but I do suggest looking at his history and comments at 2014 Oso mudslide before opening that can of worms. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:41, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

At Talk:Earthquake prediction, an RFC has been open for 8 days. J. Johnson is arguing his case, but so far nobody agrees with him, and the preferred option is a development of the one he opposes.

There is nothing wrong with being in a minority. Sometimes it's helpful for an opposing view to be expressed, and if done civilly and constructively it's all part of the process of improving content. However, those discussions are most productive if they are focused, civil, and assume good faith. Sadly, many of J. Johnson's comments are combative in tone, and almost battleground.

I hope that JJ will moderate his tone and accept the outcome of the RFC. A warning would be appropriate on that issue alone. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with Joe Bodacious and BrownHairedGirl that it would be useful for an admin to take a look at Talk:Earthquake, specifically the RfC and the section below. User seems to be spoiling for a fight. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 21:07, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
  Sorry BrownHairedGirl, hadn't realised you are an admin! Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 21:13, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I am not "spoiling for a fight". In regards of the RfC mentioned I have been trying to get a discussion going that gets beyond mere "like/dislike", particularly with an IP editor that won't engage in discussion. However, I should like to take a day or two to consider these charges before responding. And I would appreciate if you would allow me to comment prior to judging me. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:11, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

That's just my own personal opinion of what you've written on the talk page. I could be wrong (I often am!). As we all know, it's hard to judge intent online. But that's the impression that I'm getting from the tone of your writing (for what it's worth). Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 12:16, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• In spite of his denial, JJ has been spoiling for a fight at the earthquake prediction article as well as the mudslide article. Now he is asking for a couple of days to respond to "these charges". By that time, three days will have passed since the report was filed and it will be labeled as "stale", with nothing done (if something might have been done). Because of JJs penchant for wikilawyering (as noted by Joe Bodacious as well as myself in this report) and what I've assessed at the Oso mudslide article talk page to be [intent to game the system] ("How about setting that aside until ... Perhaps tomorrow? ... and then we could revert to (say) Gorthian's last edit."), I have to object to waiting any longer for JJ to comment. He was here long enough to acknowledge this AN/I report, why not just comment and be done with it rather than dragging it out for 2-3 days more? -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 00:09, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Like waiting overnight would be the end of the world? Like I should do like you and fire from the hip without any time for thought or consideration? Exactly who here is spoiling for a fight? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:30, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• User:Joe Bodacious accuses me of 1) WP:OWNing the EP article (by "reverting any edits by editors other than himself"), and 2) filibustering and WP:Wikilawyering ("lengthy citations of policy which evade the issue at hand"), thereby "thwart[ing] any attempt at collaborative editing". For good measure he also throws in a charge of 3) edit-warring. All of this is characterized generally as WP:Disruptive editing, and particularly Failure or refusal to "get the point". The particular issue is one raised at Talk:Earthquake prediction#Request for comment.

Joe's charges are not entirely accurate, and a few points need to be clarified. E.g., the edit warring involves the questionable edits of an anonymous IP editor who will not discuss his edits; the protection was applied at my request, and the warning was the standard one given to all editors in such cases. Also, Joe's statement that I "simply dismissed arguments offered by the other editors" is misleading, because (see the RfC) no arguments were offered by the other editors; their comments were entirely "like/dislike".

Leaving such matters aside, I believe "Failure to get the point" is indeed an issue here. But which way does it run? I believe Joe's view is (more or less) that I "don't get" that six editors oppose me, and therefore I must accept the majoritarian position. However, I think Joe doesn't get that WP:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, and that discussion is supposed to be based on "clear, solid arguments". And that is my complaint here: that (regarding the RfC, and aside from Joe and myself) there has been no (as in zip, zilch, non-existent) discussion, and that (more broadly) Joe and the anonymous IP want a pass on having to engage in any irksome discussion. Please advise me if I am wrong here, but I don't believe it is "wikilawyering", or a misinterpretation of any policy, to require discusssion, or that discussion be based on more than "like".

I credit Joe for sometimes engaging in discussion. But sometimes he does not, and sometimes not to the point. When my repeated questions (presumably the basis of his charge of filibustering?) are ignored (what I deem to be stonewalling, which, curiously, points to the same place as filibustering) I allow I occasionally get snippy. I regret that this is taken as combative (is it?). But he does seem to have a low threshold for irony and such. And I hope Joe will understand that my "tone" results largely from frustration that neither he nor the others will explain their real objections, which impedes finding a satisfactory resolution.

BrownHairedGirl hopes that I will "accept the outcome of the RfC". Please note that I am not opposed to a revision (only to the existing text), and have offered do so myself. The contention has been in determining what needs to be changed (or getting anyone to explain why they dislike the original text), which makes finding a satisfactory alternative rather hit or miss.

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:49, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The fact that you seem to be unable to hear the explanations is indicative of the problem. Joe Bodacious (talk) 17:25, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps because you fail to clearly enunciate? I note that you seem unable to hear me. I have tried to present not just my views and arguments, but also my understanding of yours. Is there any particular point where my understanding is defective? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

It is defective at precisely the point where you say "there has been no (as in zip, zilch, non-existent) discussion." Joe Bodacious (talk) 03:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

JJ, users on the article talk page seem to me to be discussing the tone of that particular sentence in the article. The relevant policy advice is WP:TONE and the relevant text is Wikipedia articles, and other encyclopedic content, should be written in a formal tone. Standards for formal tone vary depending upon the subject matter, but should follow the style used by reliable sources, while remaining clear and understandable. Formal tone means that the article should not be written using unintelligible argot, slang, colloquialisms, doublespeak, legalese, or jargon; it means that the English language should be used in a businesslike manner. WP:ASSERT and WP:LABEL are also relevant, as is WP:NPOV.

Ca2james has now provided a really clear (I think) explanation on the talk page - I'd urge you to read it and try not to dismiss it as WP:LIKE: option B to be unsuitable for an encyclopaedia for several reasons: * the phrase "to deceptively claim" is an unusual word ordering and so difficult to parse. * "chicanery" is a judgmental, loaded word that could be considered contentious and is better avoided. * "predictions" is enclosed in WP:SCAREQUOTES which are to be avoided. * "constant drumbeat of earthquakes" is very poetic but it is not plain english * Option B is not WP:NPOV because it contains the above elements to be avoided; for this reason and because it also contains the unencyclopedic language and structure noted above, it is not a good choice for an encyclopaedia..

Other explanations have been provided by Aircorn (more appropriate for an encyclopaedia), Homunq (it's obvious that the various !votes are expressing policy-relevant opinions on WP:NPOV rather than just irrelevant WP:LIKEs), GRuban (Because it conveys the same information in less space, with simpler language. "constant drumbeat" and "chicanery" are unnecessarily poetic. We're an encyclopedia. Hyperbole and metaphor should be beyond us.), Robert McClenon ("Constant drumbeat" is so an extravagant statement, and is unencyclopedic. While "chicanery" is precise, in referring to dishonesty, "dishonesty" is a more common use of language (if sourced properly).) and 166.147.88.42 (I think he means "B is unnecessarily poetic.").

I think that your initial expectation that editors would lynch alternative B means that you're seeing a lynching where none is intended. Your refusal to WP:LISTEN to editors explanations of their objections does not mean that editors have no objections other than WP:LIKE, or that their objections can reasonably be dismissed as hand-waving, bellyaching, feeble, whining or without a factual basis (in my opinion).

Editors are here to work together as colleagues, not to defend their 'own' text; this isn't meant to be the adversarial system. A couple of essays that might be relevant are WP:BLUD (others are less likely to consider their viewpoints because of their behavior) and WP:REPEAT. Peace, Out. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 09:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Subject of RFC

The RFC in question was originated by J. Johnson. It asks which of the following two statements is preferred: A. Because earthquakes represent a significant hazard, there is significant motivation to predict their occurrence. Unfortunately, there have also been many exaggerated claims of success.

B. With such a constant drumbeat of earthquakes various kinds of chicanery can be used to deceptively claim "predictions" that appear more successful than is truly the case.

Statement B was the original, and is the language preferred by J. Johnson. A revision of A has also been proposed. No one except J. Johnson has expressed support for statement B. However, he insists that there is a failure to discuss, and that the arguments against version B are merely WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Moving On

I see two ways to resolve this content dispute. The first is an administrative SNOW close of the RFC to establish consensus on the language to be used, and to hash out any other content issues on the talk page. The second is to topic-ban J. Johnson from the article for disruptive editing. My choice is, on the principle of minimum sanctions, to go with the snow closure of the RFC and give J. Johnson a chance to accept consensus. Has there been other earlier ownership behavior that would warrant a topic-ban at this time rather than giving him the second chance? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

By my rough count, JJ has made 30 reverts on this article during the past 12 months. The article has been protected twice during this period due to edit warring. Typically, JJ's edit summaries say that the reverted edits are "undiscussed," and from what I have observed (including in this ANI discussion,) if JJ disagrees with another editor's comment, then that comment does not count as "discussion." He often reverts multiple edits at one stroke, which is frustrating for the editors who have worked to justify each individual edit. It is clear that he considers himself the sole arbiter of what should be included in this article. He also, IMO, has run afoul of WP:SOAP; he considers anyone who poses the possibility of earthquake prediction to be a charlatan, and he wishes to write the article in such a way as to polemically discredit and ridicule proponents of earthquake prediction, which is why in the RfC he is not content to simply say that "There have been many exaggerated claims of success." Joe Bodacious (talk) 20:40, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Having reviewed the history, I agree that his edits show serious ownership problems. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Topic Ban

Should J. Johnson be topic-banned from Earthquake prediction for ownership and tendentious editing?

• Support on reviewing the history. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks leading to a possible bad faith nomination for Yes Sir Boss

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yes Sir Boss (2nd nomination)

Editor Barney the barney barney has been involved in several personal attacks which I chose to ignore despite how highly unacceptable they were: here and here. I never ANI something so trivial, however I consider Barney's recent actions more serious and disruptive.

Editor lacks an understanding as to what fall into the category of speedy delete. My article was well cited and included sources from BBC, Huffington Post, and FMV Man. The previous version was apparently promotional in tone which I cleared. User:Tokyogirl79 has declined the speedy. Barney has accused me of adding spam and vandalism to Wikipedia which obviously is not true. I've since resubmitted the article through AfC which passed.

Barney continued additional personal attacks found here accusing other editors of incompetency despite proper procedure being followed.

The last straw was in his AfD which he accused me of WP:COI which is completely unfounded. This leads me to believe this nomination may be in bad faith.

It appears that this user has a history of improper attacks and I am requesting a temporary block. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 16:26, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The article was clearly nominated in good faith. The article is quite frankly, a bag of poo. It doesn't meet the required guidelines, due to complete lack of significant coverage, probably never will meet any guidelines, and honestly is pushing to be a speedy delete. I see no reason why WP:BOOMERANG should apply and that Valoem (talk · contribs) should get double the block he suggests for suggesting the block in the first place. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:34, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

One of the reasons you stated for deletion was that I was a WP:COI editor, do you have evidence for this, because if not that is an improper personal attack. Because you are attempting to delete an article on false grounds it is considered disruptive. I could have ANIed on your first incident, but took the high road and simply ignored them, this however, shows me that turning the other cheek is not always appreciated. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 16:50, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any personal attacks behind any of Valoem's links. The old version of Barney's talk page doesn't even feature any interaction between the two of them, just Valoem using a tone that's no less combative than Barney's. Nothing to see here, move along. Lagrange613 16:45, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

In case you missed it the attack is here: "On unnotable subjects such as Yes Sir Boss (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yes Sir Boss), then other people would not feel compelled to spend their time in an essentially unproductive manner fixing your mess? This was a stonewall speedy delete, any day of the week, so lecturing me that it is a bit like trying to teach your grandmother to suck rancid eggs - I can tell their rancid, please don't pretend that they're not. I'm not as stupid as you clearly think I am." Valoem ^{talk contrib} 16:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, not a personal attack, just a combative tone. Maybe a little uncivil, but that merits a polite warning à la Tokyogirl, not the drama multiplication of ANI. Your reply to Barney above feels pretty wikilegal. I recommend you back down before this boomerangs. Lagrange613 17:01, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Teaching grandmother to suck eggs helps with context.--v/r - TP 20:01, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

No reason to discuss further if you do not consider it a personal attack. I've ignored that attack nonetheless. To AfD an article on the grounds that claim I have a COI, is the main issue for this ANI. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 17:07, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

AfD is an uncivil place. Sometimes it's best to just ignore the incivility, as long-time users, who are the major contributors there, are skilled at walking the line between incivility and personal attacks. Accusations of a COI are insulting, yes, but they're not necessarily an insult. Someone once filed a frivolous COI case against me on COI/N. I was deeply insulted, to say the least. Eventually, I decided to just ignore it; the filer had no evidence at all, and my angry protestations were just prolonging the situation. I suggest you both just drop it and abandon any grudges. It's not worth it, and neither of you have done anything worthy of sanctions yet. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:50, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hello everyone, I'm User:Anupmehra, and I'm invited to make a comment here, by User:Valoem. I didn't knew him before until the ongoing AfD discussion here. I have never interacted with the User:Barney the barney barney either and other editors who have already given their input on this incident.

I'm a AFC reviewer and Draft:Yes_Sir_Boss was one, I reviewed and considered eligible for inclusion today. I noticed, Yes_Sir_Boss is redirect to some other article, therefore I tagged the redirect under CSD#G6 criteria of speedy deletion and a template note was automatically posted on the draft page to move it to articles space, for the admin deleting the redirect. Later, I noticed that, my edit to speedy redirect was reverted by some editor (diff. link) and the draft I reviewed was tagged with CSD#G4 for deletion by the same person (diff. link). It clearly indicate either vandalism, disruptive or bad-faith editing. Some other uninvolved editor noticed this incident and raised it in an ongoing discussion on User_talk:Tokyogirl79 page, the user said, "[..]the reviewer doesn't actually have a clue[..]" (diff. link). Well, the reviewing admin User:Favonian declined the speedy deletion (diff. link). The disruptive editing did not stop here, the user brought a clearly notable article to AfD (diff. link). It looks like a WP:DUCK case, where the user wants the article to get deleted any how. He doesn't hesitate to make personal attacks for this purpose, as such here. One could simply review his talk page history for some other instances, where he repeatedly makes personal attacks.

I'm not regular to ANI, and this is why not sure, if above does bring a sanction or not. But, the persistent disruptive and bad-faith editing and a long history of making personal attacks ([96], [97], [98], [99]) suggests something must be done,, to put an end to all this. Anupmehra -Let's talk! 22:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

So now bringing an article to AfD after CSD has been declined is evidence of bad faith, and it's a personal attack to not respond to a message on one's talk page? Lagrange613 23:13, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Anupmehra, actually bringing an article to AFD after a declined CSD is the correct thing to do if you believe the article is not notable. The two deletion processes used two completely different criteria. CSD is very strict and most articles do not meet the criteria to be deleted. Articles that can not be deleted through CSD can still be deleted at AFD. Also the article is not clearly notable based on the discussion so far at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yes Sir Boss (2nd nomination). GB fan 00:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the point has been missed here. I have no issues with him bring the article to AfD if he feels it is not notable. However, it is a given that an article coming from AfC does not fall into the speedy criteria, which Barney still tagged. This compounded with multiple personal attacks, plus an attempt to delete based on the false claims of me having a COI pushed me into this ANI. Do we have an explanation for this behavior? Valoem ^{talk contrib} 00:36, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Barney x 3 was asked to be less bitey. Valoem has been advised that AfD discussions are often unpleasant with experienced editors sometimes being careful to toe the line of incivility and personal attacks without going over it. The article for deletion discussion is proceeding. Is this resolved? Candleabracadabra (talk) 23:22, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you GB fan for pinging me. I'm here, either being mis-understood or mis-quoted. I didn't mean to say that bringing an article to AFD following CSD decline is a disruptive or vandalism or bad-faith editing. I wanted to say, if some one tags, a reviewed and approved AFC submission awaiting for uncontroversial deletion of redirect (CSD#G6) in mainspace under speedy deletion criteria CSD#G4, then it is disruptive. Last AFD was 3 years ago, CSD#G4 clearly says, it applies only for "most recent deletion discussion". This kind of edit from an experienced editor suggests notion of disruptive editing. Making a revert, as this, is disruptive. An experienced editor, tags an article having multiple RS including BBC and Huff. post, with some CSD tags, then it is disruptive. Making a personal attack as such, this, is disrupting! And, there's long history, if someone reviews the user talk page and contribution history. He has already been advised multiple times by more experienced editors as such admins, (click here), but as it does not seem to stop, there, it warrants something, to put an end to all this.

This is a summary of all what I earlier said, Hope, it is clear this time. Give me a chance to clarify, if it still is not clear. Anupmehra -Let's talk! 00:37, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I was responding to the line in your earlier statement, "The disruptive editing did not stop here, the user brought a clearly notable article to AfD" It appears that you are saying that Yes Sir Boss is clearly notable and that the editor that brought it to AFD was being disruptive. If that was not your intention, I misunderstood. GB fan 00:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm familiar with BtBB. If you look at his block log, I was the last person to block him (for edit-warring at, of all places, an ANI archive) and I've had to give him warnings at other times. So I'm no apologist for him. Then again, I've also sided with him in disputes, and he's been helpful at SPI, see this case which I closed that he did a good job of putting together. I've found him to often be rude but never crossing over into personal attack territory. What I got out of this report is that he screwed up. He tagged a page for G4 that quite clearly didn't meet the criteria. I don't think it was done maliciously, I think it was just wrong. I also don't see the AfD as malicious either, and obviously it wasn't completely out of line because so far I'm seeing a reasonable amount of support for the deletion (though it seems like there's no consensus either way right now). I'm having trouble understanding where the COI accusation came from (what is the nature of this conflict of interest?) and BtBB should retract that if there's nothing to back it up. But that's about the worst of what I've looked at. Calling someone's contributions poor, and accusing them of spam, those aren't personal attacks, they're criticisms of a person's actions. There's a difference. -- Atama頭 23:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Fredin323

I am kind of at a loss how to deal with User:Fredin323. He has been edit warring at California State University, Fresno (and also Topeka, Kansas, but this posting is about Fresno State.) He continues to delete sourced information about student demographics such as here, despite there being a consensus at Talk:California State University, Fresno#Student Demographics to include it as is done in 22 out of 23 CSU articles on Wikipedia. He is now removing all the formatting changes and duplication removal done here and here. He also appears to be editing as User:Chessandcheckers which is at SPI Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Fredin323. He recently came off a block for edit warring and has resumed the same tactics. Recommend a longer block or stronger because of the edit warring and probable sockpuppetry. Bahooka (talk) 16:56, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

This notice seems to have become buried with no response from an admin about the continued edit warring and sock puppetry of this user. I'm hoping that an admin will be able to review this request or let me know if I need to provide additional information. Thanks, Bahooka (talk) 13:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Really could use some help here. The User:Fredin323 continues to edit war and remove legitimate edits just now here, now as User:Chessandcheckers. This is already at WP:SPI. Is there a more appropriate forum to have admin stop this person. Thanks, Bahooka (talk) 15:32, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

@Bahooka:, I doubt anything can/will be done until the SPI is checked. If the eediting is blatant vandalism them report at WP:AIV to stop any disruption in the mean-time. GiantSnowman 15:53, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, he has been reverting everyone against consensus and destroying formatting, etc. It is beyond a content dispute, it is purely disruptive. I will take it to AIV. Thanks, Bahooka (talk) 15:59, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

User MONGO, article Chad_Kellogg

I proposed a 1 sentence 1 source addition to this article [100], at [101]...please scroll down to the bottom section titled Proposed Controversy Section. My proposed addition is--

Outside Magazine revealed Kellogg used the "powerful steroid dexamethasone" for an Everest speedclimb attempt.[102]

User Mongo and apparently 1 other administrator have not permitted my addition, & will not discuss it, & will not wait for the opinions of others.

In that section[103], user Mongo responds "Everestrecords is apparently a single purpose account" This is obviously dishonest[104], he also states "Everestrecords wants to spit on the grave of this person...it's negative and petty and doesn't improve the article anyway." Untrue. The climber is controversial, Outside Magazine did major article recently on a negative issue (steroid use of Everest climbers), and the climber was reported in the article.

In the reason for user Mongo's most recent edit, he states [105] "walk away now or face an indefinite block". In a past edit [106] he sates "youre not able to see the light". In his earlier comment on 16:39, 12 April 2014 (UTC) [[107] he states "there is no reason for you to defame him with such a trivial issue", "Kellogg used one pill one time as a preventative not as an aid..so what!", "He's dead now...what's your point? You seem hell bent on only having the part about his use of the drug and fail to mention why he did...you misrepresent the full story".

I consider his comments about me to be personally attacking, attempts to intimidate, and attempts to provoke, and to show his intense bias. Also, is comments about the article are biased. The article is about a serious controversy, and the climber is named and reported on and quoted as having taken the steroid in the article. I'd be happy to add more text to my proposed addition to explain things as Mongo recommends, but I thought my 1 sentence addition was more appropriate due to being more brief.

The article as it is seems unbalanced. I twice added a POV template [108], user Mongo removed them within minutes, I believe the templates are supposed to remain until there is full consensus on the problem.

The article is mostly about his speed-climbing, claimed records, etc., and the Outside Magazine article did a paragraph on his Everest speed climbing. Again [[109]] 40th paragraph from the top.

If you could advise me on how to proceed with this matter I'd appreciate it

Everestrecords (talk) 17:46, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Sure....let's chat about where you called me a sociopath, a vandal, a monster on my talk page and where you have been blocked twice in the last 10 days for edit warring with numerous others on that article. No you just don't get it and I can't see any reason why we don't just block you indefinitely for disruption, among other things.--MONGO 17:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

This does indeed appear to be a single-purpose account, focusing on Kellogg's alleged use of the drug, and using sources such as http://fraudmountaineer.wordpress.com that seem equally focused on this topic. This account has also been blocked for edit-warring, has described disputes as vandalism [110], [111] and made extravagant personal attacks on MONGO when confronted [112] and claiming those who dispute their edits are " fan-stalkers of Kellogg." Acroterion (talk) 17:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• If any of these personal attacks are repeated Everestrecords should be blocked indefinitely. Drmies (talk) 18:17, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
• and I'd recommend an immediate topic ban from the Kellogg article. Wordpress as a source for a BLP? Seriously? the panda ₯’ 18:23, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

  I stumbled into Everertrecords and his editing as they were trying to undermine information on the Mount McKinley article, particularly in regards to Chad Kellogg, a recently deceased mountain climber. BLP is less enforceable on the deceased but as far as recently deceased, it's probably better to err on the side of caution. The material that Everestrecords wishes to add is negative and not really very important..all it is is that Kellogg admitted before he died that on one attempt to speed climb Mount Everest, he took a supplement, one pill just one time, and stated he did so as a preventative not as an aide. Everestrecords is hell bent on only adding the part about the pill use, without expanding on what the climber actually said. This appears, even in the bio of a deceased person, to be nothing more than a smear....in an article about a recently deceased person it's just a deliberate insult. Whatever pill use the climber admitted to, it is inconsequential anyway since the one time he admitted to using the pill, it did not result in a successful effort.--MONGO 18:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• This is not the first time Everestrecords has been here. I'd strongly suggest he listen to what everyone else is telling him, before the WP:BOOMERANG hits. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:28, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• So to sum up... BLP violations (recently-deceased people fall under BLP), single-purpose account, edit-warring, and personal attacks (pretty vicious ones too, this one is inexcusable). I'm not seeing how Wikipedia benefits from Everestrecords having editing privileges. -- Atama頭 17:25, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• All of the comments above are about what happened 1+ weeks ago. Apologies, and it will not happen again.
• I'm not using the wordpress reference any longer, and will no longer use any self-published references, including I won't use Collin Wallace's distinguished Everest history website, because it's self-published.
• My account is not single-purpose. List of my contributions [113]

Everestrecords (talk) 00:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of fixing up the indenting.Blackmane (talk) 10:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution requested here [114]

Everestrecords (talk) 00:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Question. Could you let me know what is wrong with the addition I did to the article 1.5 weeks ago? This is it. This is what led to all of the days of 25+ paragraphs of debate. 1 sentence, 1 source (Outside Magazine.

Outside Magazine revealed Kellogg used the "powerful steroid dexamethasone" for an Everest speedclimb attempt.[115]

The edit waring, etc, began after the above addition was deleted and not permitted and no discussion permitted by user Mongo. Sorry again about the edit waring. I'm wondering now about the simple 1 sentence 1 source additon and why it wasn't permitted and not discussed by user Mongo and no one else including when I did help-me requests.

Everestrecords (talk) 00:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Nearly every edit you've made this month has been focused on denigrating Kellogg, except for a foray into attacks on Tina Sjögren such as this: [116]. If you think that kind of edit is acceptable, and if you're willing to attack other editors in the manner that you have when confronted, I don't think you should be editing. You certainly have no business editing biographies, living or dead. You have not come to this noticeboard with clean hands, and you've been skating around the personal attacks with statements like "the edit-warring, etc." Acroterion (talk) 00:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

How is the 1 sentence 1 source article a denigration on Kellogg?

Outside Magazine revealed Kellogg used the "powerful steroid dexamethasone" for an Everest speedclimb attempt.[117]

I also asked about this in my previous comment, and 3-4 times last week. The article is national media, my statement is just factual, I was open to rewording it, etc.

Why is the above statement a deingration/attack? Ive seen dozens of wikipedia articles with 99% positive about someone and then a Controveersy section.

Why were my edits "attacks" on Tina Sjogren? I simply used the article as a source. But anwyay I will not use the source again, so have nothing to add to the article on her. Nor anywhere else.

I'll also not do any edits of any articles unless they're accepted in the Talk page. Best for new users unfamiliar with wikipedia to do this. I should haev used the 3rd party help first, and Dispute Resolution, and so on. Apologies again.

I couuld check back in a few weeks, and try again at the Talk page about my OUtside Magazine proposal. Maybe this is best? i'LL not do any edits/additons to articles again. Will leave that up to the people that work here or who are established here. I didn't understand this before.

Everestrecords (talk) 01:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

You appear to be using Wikipedia to settle scores: the Sjögren edit is unambiguous defamation that has no place in an encyclopedia. The fact that you don't understand that is of great concern. Acroterion (talk) 01:32, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see what benefit is served to the article on Chad Kellogg or to Wikipedia by adding this incident that is so petty it would never stand in any BLP. To be very very blunt...the addition of this edit to that bio is in such poor taste...and doesn't even tell us what the man actually admitted to. He said before he died that he took one pill one time to prevent injury not to aide his effort to speed climb Mount Everest. Its such a minor issue that even the one reference that mentions it, that was in a magazine and published before he died, waits for 40 paragraphs before it mentions it...it's a non issue since no records were broken by this "drug abuse". Everestrecords tunnel vision on this is ridiculous...he's made nary one useful edit anywhere to the encyclopedia...he is exactly the kind of editor that makes real editors want to quit in disgust. Now he's also forum shipping at the dispute resolution noticeboard to POV push this bull.--MONGO 03:09, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Everestrecords was also busy pushing negative information at a different BLP last November..between that argument and the one that commenced over this issue a couple weeks back Everestrecords made no edits with that account for over four months.--MONGO 03:31, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Yet another example of Everestrecord's apparent motivations can still be seen at ...Talk:Tina Sjögren.--MONGO 03:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

This diff is the one in question: I've removed that comment per WP:BLP. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:48, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Based on the unsatisfactory responses by Everestrecords above and on their recent editing history I've left a strongly worded warning on their talkpage. Acroterion (talk) 14:14, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Acroterion, I replied at my Talk page, accepting the good advice of the other editor. And replied to you. Btw, I addressed what you say above about the Sjogren article in my comment above. I've addressed it many times. Concerns me that you can't get that. I said i realize the source and content are not acceptable for the article oN Sjogren. Above, and before also. Good luck.

The other points below I also addressed. Many many times. Yet no one has addressed anything i've stated. The recent person at my Talk page finally did in a 2 sentence comment.

You say 'based on the unsatisifactory responses by Eversetrecords". I started this Admin Noticeboard thread. I provided simple questions. I apologized, and focused my question on 1 thing. You didn't address it. The person at my Talk page did. I replied there. He/she gave good advice. good luck again. Everestrecords (talk) 23:16, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Jackson High School (Jackson, Michigan) and JacksonViking

Despite numerous requests to discuss matters on the article talk page posted to his user page from more than one editor, this editor keeps reinserting content I have removed with what I feel is a legit explanation, including referring to my edits as vandalism. This is a content dispute, but WP:BURDEN does fall on him to justify his reinsertion. At least the BLP violations have been toned down. I would like to resolve this dispute amicably, but if the guy won't talk, what's a boy to do? John from Idegon (talk) 00:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC) :And I am sorry, I meant to post this to the EW noticeboard, which I shall do forthwith. John from Idegon (talk) 00:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I recommend that you blank this, then. Tutelary (talk) 00:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Changed my mind. I have never used the EW noticeboard and its reporting template is not really suitable for the slow edit war going on here. John from Idegon (talk) 00:33, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

@John from Idegon: When reporting someone on this noticeboard, it is required that you leave them notice, as it says at the top of this board. You have not done so. -- Atama頭 02:07, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE: JacksonViking left a message on John from Idegon's user talk page to discuss the article. This is an improvement over the persistent edit war. It does unfortunately show some ownership mentality ("I apologize for my editing of MY school's wikipedia page"). But it's better than no communication at all. The discussion could continue on that user talk page (if that brings a peaceful resolution then so be it) though it would be preferable at the article talk page where other editors working on the article can see what issues are being debated, and could also participate in the discussion. -- Atama頭 15:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Apologies over the not leaving notice. I was editing at work and got called away and never got back. And since he is now sorta kinda trying to engage, that is all I need here. Feel free to close this. John from Idegon (talk) 16:22, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

It happens, no worries. As I said, JacksonViking is showing some problematic signs even when communicating with you so if this escalates or you can't get through to the editor leave a note here if this thread isn't archived yet. Engaging you in discussion is a good first step but it doesn't necessarily mean the problem is resolved. -- Atama頭 17:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

My nature is to expect the best from people so it doesn't surprise me that I requested closure here prematurely. An IP, which geolocates to Jackson, Michigan (50.201.56.11), reinstated the disputed content yet again. I think a peek at said IP's talk page might be illuminating. It appears that some WP:DUCK may be going on here and I am going to ask you erstwhile folks to carry on whatever you deem as appropriate. I will be posting a request at the school project to get some eyes on this page and maybe yet another editor can take a crack at it. There have been some more good NPOV edits from some editors and I hope the trend continues. It is beginning to piss me off enough that I am going to leave it alone for a while. Thanks for your help. John from Idegon (talk) 23:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Yikes, this is practically screaming WP:COI. Happy Attack Dog (Bark! Bark!) 13:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I think it's pretty obvious that the IP is the same editor, but logged-out. Looking at JacksonViking's contributions, I don't see this person as completely disruptive. They have some good edits. Even these proposed insertions into the Jackson High School article have some merit; not all of it is unsourced (some are sourced to a local news organization) and some of the info could possibly be useful for expanding the article. The problems I see are an ownership mentality (caused by or complicated by a COI) and an unwillingness to discuss matters on the article talk page. I think it would be mutually beneficial if JacksonViking was willing to talk about the information they want to add, to trim out the fluff from the substance. But they haven't been willing to do that; while the editor hasn't been completely uncommunicative, that communication hasn't included any attempts to discuss content, just to either apologize to one editor for a misunderstanding, or to give a sarcastic apology which challenged reverting of their additions. Aside from what little we see in edit summaries, that is the extent of this editor's communication efforts. -- Atama頭 16:35, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you about the editor, Atama, but not about the edits. It's an urban school and there will be some violence in its history. It is my feeling, supported by the school article guidelines that if the incidents in question were not noted otside the immediate area, they do not belong in the article. some, such as the teacher losing his job after a drunk driving conviction, do not belong at all. That being said, if anyone would like to approach him and tell him I am not his enemy I would be happy to try to work with him in improving what he edits. the most disruptive thing he did frankly was the repeated insertion of the horribly formatted listing of clubs. John from Idegon (talk) 18:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Not the controversy section, but some of the other information like the school newspaper, its rival, etc. The news story about the homecoming king was probably just fluff, but it was sourced at least. Some of that info might be useful. Most of it isn't, though. -- Atama頭 18:44, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Can anyone convince me I shouldn't block this editor?

So far as I can see, Nasirakram1440 (talk · contribs) (and an IP, possibly his) has been adding copyvio from [118] to Tajik people (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - the url is to the 2000 version but virtually the same as today's, I went that far back to make sure they weren't copying us. I ran into this user when another editor pointed out Wikipedia:Long-term abuseLysozym which was some sort of complaint about User:Lysozym - no big deal, just said "This user delibrately removes parts of "Tajik People" on Wikipedia. Initial claims were that some parts of the article is not backed by source, after providing credible sources the user still removes list of well known tajik people and parts of this article. I think he has some sort of political agenda and trying to hide the facts. Kindly take appropriate actions regarding this user. Thank you." I've deleted it as an attack page and told him to come to ANI if he has complaints. I warned him about copyvio and he posted to my talk page User talk:Dougweller#What do you think? denying it is copyvio and saying he has two sources (one.[119], clearly failing WP:RS which I don't follow as it is clearly copy and paste from the afghan-network.net website. Despite my warnings that I would block himn he has added the copyright material again. Dougweller (talk) 10:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The two sources i provided to Dougweller are as follows. 1: http://books.google.com.af/books?id=QdXpUNfNANYC&pg=PA139&dq=tajiks+of+afghanistan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uXBFU7SpO4b27AbSkYC4Dw&safe=on&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tajiks%20of%20afghanistan&f=false 2: http://books.google.com.af/books?id=mC9RsIYy8m8C&pg=PA344&dq=tajiks+of+afghanistan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uXBFU7SpO4b27AbSkYC4Dw&safe=on&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tajiks%20of%20afghanistan&f=false

Dougweller states that it has been taken from [120] which is completely incorrect. As you all can see it has been taken from these two sources. Please open the sources i provided and look at it for yourself and decide. Dougweller keeps on deleting parts of "Tajik People", Sometimes a list of Tajiks from the page without any reason. Please refer to view history of the page for this. I don't know why he is doing this. Now he is trying to block me. I have engaged in talk with him and he seems to provide no logical reason for it nor according to wikipedia rules. My request to admins is please take appropriate measures in this regard and all these acts from Dougweller seems to indicate an act of censorship and vandalism. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nasirakram1440 (talk • contribs) 13:22, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

*Thumbs down, continues munching on bread*. It's almost like the dude's not even trying to be convincing. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:32, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Well I'm not sure whether the book (where I found a version claiming to be from 2000) or the website had it first but they both pre-date us and both claim copyright. Could this be a case of Nasirakram1440 not understaning copyright? Unless I'm missing something they've not had copyright properly explained to them - there's a buried noticed on their page but I suspect they may not even be aware of it's importance given their later comments. It appears to me that they don't claim that it's not a copyright violation but rather claim the book didn't copy the website which is a quite different thing. No where do I see any indication that this user even knows about copyright or that it has been explained to them or am I missing something? @Nasirakram1440: - I suggest you go and read WP:COPYPASTE to understand what the problem is here. Dpmuk (talk) 13:40, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Nasirakram1440, from a legal point of view there is actually no difference between copying a text from a book or a website. The problem is that you cannot simply take any text that has been published before and insert it here word by word at Wikipedia under Wikipedia's free licences. Only the original authors may republish their texts under such licences, but neither you nor anyone else must copy and paste their work here. There is a big difference between using a book as a source to proof your own writings in a Wikipedia article and simply copying the original texts that others have written. As Dpmuk wrote, this is explained in WP:COPYPASTE. De728631 (talk) 13:57, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

@Nasirakram1440: 1) Do not "copy & paste". 2) Solve the issue(s) on talk page/discussion. --Zyma (talk) 17:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think Nasirakram1440 pasted anything, actually, but copied the book rather than the website. Their text has a typo whereby "the bulk of Afghanistan's educated elite" has become "the build of Afghanistan's educated elite", (which doesn't make any sense). This suggests they typed the text by hand from the Google scan of the book, or indeed from the print book itself, rather than copypaste it from the website. Doug, assuming as much good faith as possible, I suppose they may have been confused when you said it had been copied from a website that they may not even have seen. Now that Dpmuk has taken their copyright education in hand, and they have also been warned about edit warring, you might as well hold off with the block. Bishonen | talk 00:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC).

• • That makes sense and is more or less in line with what I guessed, although I'm concerned that they couldn't understand my copyvio notice. Dpmuk says there is a notice "buried on their page" and that copyright hasn't been explained to them. I agree it doesn't have a section heading and perhaps that is something that can be fixed in Twinkle, I'll ask. But Nasirakram has some responsibility to read his talk page and certainly not to accuse me of vandalism - perhaps someone else might discuss good faith with him. Good call on the typo. Dougweller (talk) 07:09, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Threats being issued by a user

Princessruby has issued a threat against me, saying they will "be compelled to play around with the pages that u made...i.e like rafe fernandez, theresa donovan n etc. So, this is my last warning to you." I issued Ruby numerous warnings because a page of creation she's been editing has copyrighted, or suspected copyright material as a copy and paste move from the source I provide]]. And the template states only an ADMIN can remove the template once they have been looked over. Obviously, this user does not understand Wiki policies on such things. This user has continued to add fancruft edits to several articles about soap characters, and edits that defy the policy that Wikipedia is not a crystalball. The template clearly states: "Do not restore or edit the blanked content on this page until the issue is resolved by an administrator, copyright clerk or OTRS agent", something which Ruby is not. And to continually remove the template and re-write the section, according to the template is against the rules, as far as I am assuming. And them issuing a threat like they have is simply NOT acceptable at all. To say they're going to vandalise pages that I have worked on providing original material, and writing original thesis' of story lines, etc. is unacceptable. And I hope the Admins of this website are able to look into this user's actions and see how problematic they potentially are. I understand this user's edits are in good faith, but going against policies is just unacceptable. And I have not been the only one to issue warnings to this user, and they continue to ignore them. livelikemusic ^{my talk page!} 13:47, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Ben Rogers (Days of Our Lives) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) for reference.--v/r - TP 18:08, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I've reviewed the article and the page you say it's ripped from and frankly I just don't see the copyright violation. It isn't even close paraphrasing. I think you owe Princessruby an apology. On the converse, threatening to disrupt the project to settle a score is not appropriate either. Princessruby owes the rest of us an apology.--v/r - TP 18:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Persistent BLP violation: accusation of attempted murder

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Requesting indefinite block for 158.182.66.71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). The IP 158.182.66.71 has been repeatedly adding an unsourced accusation of attempted murder to Alexian Lien beating and Talk:Alexian Lien beating. The IP was blocked by Materialscientist (talk · contribs) at AIV for these edits, but as soon as the block expired, 158.182.66.71 was back with more of the same. But this time a block was declined on AIV. Darkwind (talk · contribs) wrote: "This appears to be a good-faith effort to improve the article, and I suggest working with this anonymous editor accordingly. If that fails, please take to ANI."

After having been warned repeatedly regarding the policies of WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:NOR, and then having been blocked for it, coming back and beating the same dead horse is not in any way "a good-faith effort to improve the article". All of the edits from 158.182.66.71 to the Alexian Lien beating article from 6 February 2014 until now push the same unsourced POV and they have shown no sign of getting the point or a willingness to follow Wikipedia policy. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:42, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any accusations of murder since the last block expired.--v/r - TP 18:05, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Here. It's an improvement (kind of) that it's on the talk page, though the BLP policy makes no such exception, per WP:BLPTALK. And this and this edit-warring in the article are the same unsourced POV pushing and defamation of a living person that he was blocked for.

Per previous discussions and previous consensus, there is not one reputable, published source that thinks the victim of this beating should be charged with any crime, not even an op-ed. It's entirely a forum opinion, and most likely the work of trolls at that. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:03, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The diffs you've presented do not say that he murdered anyone. And you're misunderstanding BLPTALK. We routinely discuss negative information about living persons on talk pages. Either to convince someone to quit adding it, or to develop a consensus to include it. I don't see that diff as so outside the norm as to block them for it.--v/r - TP 19:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

You're right, it's attempted murder, not murder. I never said murder, I said attempted murder. The IP is accusing Lien of attempted murder, not murder. An unsourced accusation of attempted murder is the defamation we are talking about. I think we're hung up on an irrelevant bit of confusion. The unsourced defamation is quite clear, as far as I can see.

I believe I'm right about BLPTALK. There is no negative information to discuss. There is not a single source which has presented any negative information such as criminal charges against Lien. The only negative information about the victim here comes from the IP's imagination. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The only one being caught up on atempted murder versus murder is you. I haven't cared in the slightest. And no, the editor has not made any accusations of attempted murder since the block expired. Your diffs above do not show that. And yes, there are reliable sources which make the claim that Alexian Lien should stand trial for murder and it took me 2 minutes on Google to find them: [121][122][123][124].--v/r - TP 19:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Here it says I think the name of the article should be changed to "attempted murder of Edwin Mieses". How is that not an accusation of attempted murder against Lien?

The links you provided are not reliable sources. For example, the "attempted murder" claim here is from an anonymous commenter. No credible source has made this accusation. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

SMH - Editors are allowed to discuss editorial changes on talk pages. WP:BLPTALK says, "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices should be removed, deleted, or oversighted, as appropriate." If the idea is resoundingly rejected (or has been before), it can be removed from the page. But proposing a move is not a BLP violation. Such a strict reading of WP:BLP would stifle any controversial discussion of a subject at all and give us an entirely whitewashed encyclopedia. You couldn't even criticize whitewashing because doing so would be a BLP violation. No, you're overreacting here. And about that source, how do you get an anonymous commenter from that? The title of the article is "Arrest Alexian Lien for Attempted Vehicular Manslaughter", it is published by the Salem News from Salem, Oregon, and written by Tim King. Sure, it's an Op-Ed piece, but that just means that you attribute it in the author's voice and not Wikipedia's.--v/r - TP 21:18, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Since I'm convinced the IP is here for no reason other than to violate the BLP policy, I'm going to let it go. Give him enough rope, and he will earn a block. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Probably for the best. He's obviously got a POV and is here to right great wrongs.--v/r - TP 22:24, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:B!ttu

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:B!ttu moved his userpage, and then moved it into the main namespace. I'm not sure where to leave messages, but he's also been removing AfD and db-person templates from the new page: Kang Jun Ho. I'd like an admin to investigate and take appropriate action, probably including fixing the moved pages and redirects, and probably also imposing a temporary block. I'll put the appropriate ANI notices on his talk page and some moved pages as well, to be sure the message gets through the system. --Slashme (talk) 19:38, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Note: User:Yngvadottir has stepped in with admirable restraint and a very suitable response. Thanks! --Slashme (talk) 20:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid the user has decided not to accept my solution; the article about himself is now at User:Kang Jun Ho, but he has twice removed the template identifying it as a user page, so I have nominated it for speedy deletion. He also appears to be using two accounts (B!ttu as well as Kang Jun Ho, to which he was renamed last month), further confusing the picture. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

This is pretty confusing. I think what happened is that B!ttu's account was created on April 30, 2013. The account was then renamed to Kang Jun Ho following this request at CHUS/Simple, which was done by Xeno. But then I see the user B!ttu being "automatically created" about 4 hours after that rename occurred, which I suspect was the editor creating a new account with the old B!ttu name (that's the only scenario that I can think of that explains what I see in logs). They've edited under that extra account since then. To top all of this off, Kang Jun Ho created another account called Kangjunho.

I'll also note, all of this bizarre behavior has been done with the singular goal of self-promotion. I see no action done by any of these accounts that is in any way constructive to Wikipedia. This seems to be nothing but a violation of WP:NOTWEBHOST, WP:SELFPROMOTION and WP:SPAM. The best course of action is probably to block Kang Jun Ho as an advertising-only account (self-advertising) and per WP:NOTHERE, and block the other two accounts as sockpuppets. -- Atama頭 22:04, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree: despite very reasonable approaches, this user doesn't seem to be interested in changing his behaviour, so your suggestions make perfect sense. --Slashme (talk) 22:11, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Please see this edit - I have left two warnings about this kind of behaviour. Three users have already been involved in replacing tags that have been removed by Kang Jun Ho. The user needs to be blocked now. --Slashme (talk) 22:18, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

He's been putting {{edit semi-protected}} on the pages, apparently wanting semi-protection.--Auric talk 22:43, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

He's not going to be doing it any longer. I've done exactly what I suggested above. I've blocked Kang Jun Ho indefinitely for self-advertising, and blocked the others as sockpuppets. -- Atama頭 22:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Mosfetfaser

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User:Mosfetfaser

Quite like the "big phoney" guy in the Family Guy episode The Kiss Seen Around the World, this user is using his talk space to bring up how I misused Wikipedia over 2 years ago, titling this section as a direct attack on me. He has reverted when I deleted it and warned him over ANI, only for him to have the bare-faced cheek to say I am edit-warring. '''tAD''' (talk) 20:21, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I will allow your edit history to speak for itself - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/The_Almightey_Drill . Mosfetfaser (talk) 20:24, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, people saw what I did two years ago. It's gone now. Move on. Why does it affect you? Are you any better abusing your user talk to attack another user and do it again despite warnings? '''tAD''' (talk) 20:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

It's hilarious your witch hunt that's two years late: I have 25 deleted edits in 5,800 edits, you have 14 in 780. Your ratio is MUCH worse than mine. Your crusade against me is nothing more than not liking one disambiguating word "also" that I put into an article, and you have not been at all WP:CIVIL about it. '''tAD''' (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I must be thoroughly terrible, I have over 2,600 deleted edits out of 16,200 or so. I didn't know that's how we judged editors around here, I am ashamed.

@Mosfetfaser: To call someone a vandal for an edit they made more than two years ago is a baseless personal attack, and a pretty serious one. I see that you have chosen to remove it which was proper. Don't put it back. -- Atama頭 22:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Alex250P meatpuppetry attempts

Hello there. Recently there have been a rise in new discussions forming around articles in the scope of WP:EE. These were made in regards to challenging consensus made on a small amount of changes to infobox styles. Here is a talk page discussion started by User:Alex250P regarding the removal of birth and death dates from fictional character articles. In this post they reference a forum thread on the entertainment website Digital Spy. I only noticed this yesterday wondering where these new interested users came from. I tracked the thread down and here it is. In this thread a disgruntled User:Alex250p states:

"I've tried to start a debate on Wikipedia about it but if I'm honest I'm unsure. It's so annoying, I used to think they were great pieces of information - but it seems difficult to pass any sort of change with the control that few users have on them articles. If a few of us all messaged the individual, maybe something could happen about it?"

When other posters question how difficult this would be, User:Alex250p reassures "No there isn't really an admin or anything, if everybody has wikipedia profiles and we form some sort of debate on his talk page it could move somewhere?"

Another individual "Mattyboii1995" admits to holding a Wikipedia account and states: "Exactly, it just seemed pointless to have an argument with 1 loser who stays on Wikipedia all day, every day checking that the pages are just how he wants them. His name is 'AnenomeProjectors' if that's who you're thinking of." They are referring to administrator User:AnemoneProjectors. They also go on to offer PM's to other posters to target and change consensus. It could be possible that Alex250p also operates that account and more on Wikipedia itself.Rain the 1 20:37, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I find these accusations rather unjust. I can assure you I operate only the one account, and will be prepared to submit IP addresses/passwords, whatever it takes to prove this. Also, I never began the thread on Digital Spy, however I did feel that in order to create a serious talk then more people were need with actual Wiki profiles. Wikipedia is read by everybody, therefore if somebody feels strongly enough to create a thread on it, why not have their say on here? It's a perfectly democratic suggestion. I have not named any administrators in particular and would not go accusing people by name, this "Mattyboii1995" is not me, or a clone account of me and as I've said, will be willing to prove this. I've contributed to articles on Wikipedia for a number of years now, and recently I do feel that the community has changed in terms of discussing changes, and that it has become the word of a few rather than the majority. Is it so wrong to want a say? Alex250P (talk) 22:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

@Alex250P: Please note that our canvassing policy prohibits what you did. You violated 3 of the 4 versions of canvassing. Campaigning by not neutrally asking people to participate, clearly you're asking them to have a particular action taken. Vote-stacking by asking people in an area that you know will support your point of view. Stealth canvassing by making these actions off of Wikipedia. I believe that you've done this in ignorance of policy, but know that if you do this sort of thing again, you can and will be blocked. Consensus is one of the basic foundations of Wikipedia, and attempts to circumvent consensus as you've done are strictly forbidden. -- Atama頭 23:07, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Atama, with all due respect, I have to disagree. I have no vested interest in this; I just came along and happened to read it, and was disturbed by your belief that Wikipedia has the right to govern a user's off-wiki freedom of speech. What your interpretation of WP:CANVASS is doing is restricting a user's off-wiki behavior to what Wikipedia finds acceptable. I find that chilling, and completely inappropriate; a user account on Wikipedia does not compel an editor to reliquish his/her right to discuss Wikipedia freely and openly in other venues, and that includes "rallying the troops" if need be. My understanding of the canvassing policy is that it governs on-wiki behavior, and does not explicitly address off-wiki activity. Consequently, I would argue that Alex250p has violated no policy. On the other hand, if the consequences of that discussion come on-wiki, that's another story. --Drmargi (talk) 02:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you like it or not, Drmargi. It's our guideline. Read it, don't make assumptions.

"Because it is less transparent than on-wiki notifications, the use of email or other off-wiki communication to notify editors is discouraged unless there is a significant reason for not using talk page notifications. Depending on the specific circumstances, sending a notification to a group of editors by email may be looked at more negatively than sending the same message to the same group of people on their talk pages."

That's a direct quote from the guideline. As I said before, there are 4 different kinds of prohibited canvassing defined by our guideline. The fourth kind, "stealth canvassing", is entirely concerned with an editor's off-wiki activities. Let's put it this way... What an editor does off-wiki makes no difference unless and until it affects Wikipedia. When you recruit people to come to Wikipedia to bolster your POV, that is affecting Wikipedia and circumventing consensus, and is disruptive in the process. That's why our guideline prohibits such practices. -- Atama頭 03:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

"Rallying the troops" off-wiki also has another name: meatpuppetry. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:58, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

If this is seriously how insular Wikipedia has become, then I frankly give up trying to edit. Alex250P (talk) 19:47, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

@Alex250P: Wikipedia didn't "become" this way. The guideline has been like this for years. The discussion that led to the guideline change can be seen here begun in June 2007. A stable version of the guideline (where people were no longer edit-warring about whether or not "stealth canvassing" should be included) is seen as early as August 2007, and it has been part of the guideline since. By the time you began editing Wikipedia (under this account, at least) the guideline had been in place for more than half a year. So the only thing that has changed about Wikipedia is your understanding of the project's guidelines. Don't assume because you were ignorant of our guidelines that they are new, they predate your own participation here and are the guidelines you've been subject to all along. -- Atama頭 20:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not referring explicitly to the guidelines, I'm talking about the fact that I'm being accused of having multiple accounts. Nobody has suggested a way in which I can prove that I don't. Innocent until proven guilty? Alex250P (talk) 21:20, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Not exactly, It means that if you do not make a argument against it, then you will likely be blocked, I think we should open a SPI over this and end this thread. If we don't, Its ok too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Happy Attack Dog (talk • contribs) 22:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Oglesruins

Oglesruins (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I came across the editor above when an edit war at the article Mexico got them blocked 27 days ago. I noticed today (and reverted) more additions to the same page. The "English" used is unintelligible. i.e "The country finally achieved that his political independence was recognized for.." and "They were lacking national identity and were not understanding they nor were interested..." I think we have a CiR native language problem. So I looked at the editors history and noticed they are blanking things etc... I think we have a classic case of WP:NOTHERE in a few ways. There is no attempt at communication with others over the concerns raised on there talk page or edit summaries explaining anything. They are editwaring over edits like this that add odd English. They are also blanking things as seen here. There are many many edits that have to be reviewed. What is the best course of action here? Do we need someone that speaks Spanish to try to communicate or what? -- Moxy (talk) 21:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I looked into some of this editor's recent edits and some were good, and the English is not always as bad as that. However, at Museo del Concorde the editor is determined not to have our article reflect the fact the museum has closed, and one of their few edit summaries suggests they take it personally: "not be envious...". Also at Querétaro F.C., one of the diffs given by the O.P. above, the editor is not only blanking the list of notable players but reinstating an unclear lede that I sorted out. I dropped a note on their talk page and so has another editor. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:04, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I think I'll block this editor if we see any more edits like this, but there's no reason to block right at the moment. I definitely agree that this is a WP:CIR situation. Nyttend (talk) 21:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, I see they have reverted me again at Museo del Concorde. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked, and instead of leaving {{uw-block}}, I copy/pasted the Spanish equivalent, Plantilla:Aviso bloqueado, along with a short message in the least-bad Spanish I could write. Note that it's pointless to advise this user to edit es:wp, due to an indefinite block there as a sock of Covervisit, whose few edits here (in 2007 and 2008) were a mix of vandalism reversion and the stuff that's gotten him blocked here just now. Nyttend (talk) 12:14, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope we can get through to him. I had seen the block notice on es. but the two covervisit accounts are unattached, and the one here seems from the small sample to have much better English than Oglesruins. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Recurrent violation of Civility policy by Jytdog

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This is not a matter to be resolved at this noticeboard, because there is no concise synopsis with diffs showing any sort of behavior that would require an immediate block. Please try WP:RFC/U instead if you want to have a lengthy discussion about an editor, if you can meet the requirements. It looks like these specific complaints are baseless, and that if this trajectory continues, the complaining party might himself be subject to a sanction. Jehochman ^Talk 13:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

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Incident report, by LeoRomero (talk) 04:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I tried to discuss Jytdog's behavior on his User Page, but he deleted my post (diff), refused to discuss, and invoked WP:SHUN. This was the text of my request for discussion:

Civility

I agree with you when you say on your User Page that Civility "is crucial for successful interactions among editors trying to write articles ... we have to work together - we have to see and acknowledge each other - to get anything good done ... civility is all about behavior -- it has nothing to do with who you are or what you believe; what matters is what you write, and how you write it. Civility is what makes this ultimate democratic space possible ... The best interactions are characterized by competence and civility ... Of the two, only one is a pillar. Civility. If editors work in a spirit that acknowledges the other's validity and one's own limitedness - if they assume good faith - a consensus can be reached, eventually. Take civility away, and there is no chance."

But I disagree with how you practice what you preach. I refer you to the Wikipedia Policy Page on Civility (shortcut WP:NICE). "Stated simply, editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect. In order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment, editors should behave politely, calmly and reasonably, even during heated debates." Among other things, WP:NICE says: "Try not to get too intense", " Take great care to avoid the appearance of being heavy-handed or bossy", "Be calm", "don't make snide comments", "don't make personal remarks about editors", "don't be aggressive", "no personal attacks", no "rudeness, insults, name-calling", no "belittling a fellow editor".

I quote back to you verbatim et literatim some recent remarks you'd made to me and to other editors (f.e A1candidate, Khimaris, Nigelj, TimidGuy), not only on our User Talk Pages, but also on the Talk Pages of Articles, where you yourself said they don't belong (diff). I'm certain that if I dig deeper I will find many more examples, but I think these suffice to illustrate my point (I was going to organize them according to the nature of their incivility, but there are so many (38) of them that I had to resort to mere alphabetization): 'Again, you seem very committed to not actually discussing things... strange'; 'because i run out of patience with your behavior'; 'bizarre to me'; 'create nothing but misery for everyone involved'; 'Do you see that?'; 'don't get yourself all worked up'; 'don't torment editors who are following those policies'; 'filled with mountains of bullshit'; 'I have neither time nor desire to pander to your ego here'; 'If you want to learn, ask, don't argue - ask and listen'; 'It is as foolish as'; 'just a big waste of time (except perhaps for satisfying your ego)'; 'makes you look less than credible'; 'Maybe this is some kind of sport for you'; 'not a happy sign to me of things to come should you choose to continue working on WP'; 'profoundly un-Wikipedian behavior'; 'Running to no less than two drama boards'; 'slow down and breathe'; 'So blech'; 'that is a patience-trying request'; 'that it is your idea - a newbie's idea'; 'the issue is so trivial that it is not worth trying to take up the community's time with'; 'there is a strange inability to read going around'; 'umm'; 'you appear to misunderstand a fundamental aspect of the Wikipedia mission'; 'you are going to be miserable here'; 'You are not talking, you are arguing in a legalistic manner.'; 'you are not working toward the best interest of the encyclopedia'; 'you are showing that you understand none of this'; 'you can hear me, or not! your call, naturally. good luck! '; 'you consciously have taken a stance that you aware is outside the consensus'; 'You don't seem to be aware'; 'you have an ax to grind'; 'you need to be careful to aim that energy where it can be productive'; 'You should know by now'; 'you should know that you pick your battles; good judgement is essential'; 'Your intensity and urgency are making it difficult to have a rational conversation. Can you even see it? Where is that coming from?'

I would like to discuss with you here why you think that these comments of yours meet Wikipedia's Civility requirements. - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

• This is the second complaint about an editor that LeoRomero has filed here in the last few days (it was me being complained about before). This looks spurious too. Jytdog has a personally engaged style which I think many newbies and frazzled editors find very welcome. Even from the carefully cherry-picked fragments above I see nothing offensive, but rather some on-point plain speaking: constructive criticism is not uncivil. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 05:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• LeoRomero, I don't see any mention of "troll" in the diff you gave - and if you're going to make such accusations, you need to provide actual evidence. What I see is your posting a lengthy and detailed critique of another poster on their talk page, and that poster opining that it was over the top, archiving it, and telling you they're not interested - and they're perfectly entitled to do that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• If this is Jtydog at his worst, I'd like to hire him to come and lead group therapy sessions for people with profound social anxiety. Looking over the articles over which the discussion occurred, I see a pretty tenacious effort by some there to insert material that is clearly promotional/ advocacy in nature. I see this behavior as a much more appropriate topic for discussion on this board than Jytdog's comments, which are sometimes pretty direct but well with in the bounds of civil discussion. Formerly 98 (talk) 09:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• I acknowledge I can be too harsh sometimes, and I am generally blunt. However, OP is fairly new and is still learning how things work here and has a legalistic communication and behavioral style that I find off-putting (I own that). Clearly the OP and I are having communication/style differences, so after his posting on my Talk page, which I did not find to be an authentic request to discuss anything, I archived it (I didn't delete it) and I suggested we simply mutually WP:SHUN, which he misunderstood, and reacted again in a legalistic way with this post. I do hope he gets his feet down and finds a way to be a productive member of the community. Jytdog (talk) 11:35, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• There really is nothing to discuss here. It is cruel to get eager wiki-villagers excited by a new complaint but then force us to put away our torches and pitchforks. Some of the quotations are a bit brusque or perhaps even impolite, but there's nothing that even approaches a personal attack. I can't understand what brought on this complaint, and I would suggest the complainant consider a mentorship program. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:11, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for participating in this discussion guys. Just one request: when you post on this thread, could you please ping me by including my user ID [[User:LeoRomero|LeoRomero]] in your comments? Here are my replies to the comments above:
  • Alexbrn: (1) Filing that complain against you on this Board was a rookie mistake. I thought I had already acknowledged that in my edit explanation when I deleted my post from your User Page a coupla days ago, but upon checking it just now, I saw that the comments were still there. I struck out my comments, and included my apology in the edit explanation. I really am sorry about that. (2) I did not cherry pick the fragments, I copied and pasted from Jytdog comments that I just stumbled upon. As I noted above, I am certain that I'd find many more examples were I to actually research. (3) When you said that that you found nothing offensive in Jytdog's remarks, you referred to Wikipedia:Call a spade a spade, which is just an essay, countered by this other essay: Wikipedia:Don't call a spade a spade. My complaint is based on WP:NICE – a policy “pillar” - and I hope we can focus on that. (4) Constructive criticism is civil by definition, but Jytdog has not been engaged in that – not with me anyway. Unlike yours (example diff), Jytdog's comments to me have been 100% negative – nothing positive, no suggestions to improve (unless we count “slow down and breathe”, which is as helpful as screaming “Don't Panic!” in the middle of a firefight). gotta run, will respond to the others soon as I can – Thanks again; LeoRomero (talk) 00:19, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Boing! said Zebedee : (1) really no need to lecture me on the need to provide proof, that's kinda condescending. (2) You're giving me contradictory advice: you say that I ought to give proof ("if you're going to make such accusations, you need to provide actual evidence"), but also say that I oughtn't (“your posting a lengthy and detailed critique" - it was the proof that made it lengthy and detailed). (3) You assume, incorrectly, that I have a problem with Jytdog's deleting his remarks and not wanting to have a discussion with me about his behavior on his page. I have no problem with that at all, and I respected his wishes. (4) I felt that Jytdog called me a troll when he posted a link on my page to WP:SHUN, the first line of which reads "We all know not to feed the trolls." That's the second time he used the word "troll" in reference to me. But on second thought, I may have overreacted, and ought to give him the benefit of the doubt that that was not his intent, so I deleted the troll reference from this complaint. - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Formerly 98: (1) Why do you think it matters to this discussion that some of Jytdog's comments were directed at people who were trying “to insert material that is clearly promotional/ advocacy in nature”? (2) If by “some” you include me, and my “tenacious effort” to include the external links to UCLA Mindful Awareness Research Center and its free guided meditations in the Articles Mindfulness meditation and Mindfulness-based stress reduction, I invite you to join the discussion about that here. (3) Please let me know where you find in WP:NICE support for your opinion that the examples of Jytdog's comments I quoted above are “well with in the bounds of civil discussion”. - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Jytdog: What do you mean by the word “legalistic” and how am I being that? I haven't found any WP policy doc that mentions “legalistic” or “legalism”, but I did find these two essays that do include them: Wikifinagling and Wikilawyering. Both essays abjure “Abiding by the letter of a policy or guideline while violating its spirit or underlying principles”, “Asserting that the technical interpretation of Wikipedia Policies and guidelines should override the underlying principles they express”; “Misinterpreting policy or relying on technicalities to justify inappropriate actions”. So do I. (2) Re your statement that you didn't find my post on your Talk Page “to be an authentic request to discuss anything”, I asked this of you at least once before (the first time you implied that I am a troll (diff)): please assume good faith. Had you done that, maybe I wouldn't have had to file this complaint. (3) I concede that I may have misunderstood your intent when you posted WP:SHUN on my wall, even though it was the second time you associated me with trolling, so I removed the troll reference from this complaint. (4) Please pardon my being ESL and ATL, but what does “gets his feet down” mean? I'm guessing it's not a compliment. (5) Re your hope that I find “a way to be a productive member of the community” that's yet another good example of your recurrent violation of Civility policy – both its spirit and its letter. - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
    • What do you mean by the word “legalistic” and how am I being that? I haven't found any WP policy doc that mentions “legalistic” or “legalism” ← brain explodes from irony overload. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 07:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
  • NinjaRobotPirate: When you say “Some of the quotations are a bit brusque or perhaps even impolite”, you make a point for me. WP:NICE requires us to be polite (the word occurs four times in the current version). - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
    • @LeoRomero: AN/I is generally for situations that have spiraled out of control and require the attention of an administrator. Calm but exasperated messages are basically the norm here, and they do not require anything but voluntary disengagement, which Jytdog has already wisely suggested. The nuclear holocaust of f-bombs caused the editor who said it to get a warning; nothing you've presented here has even warranted that. If anything, Jytdog deserves a barnstar of civility if that's the worst you've been able to dig up. If you decide to stick around here, I think you're going to need a thicker skin and require less positive reinforcement. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
      • NinjaRobotPirate: (1) I can't find any policy basis for your interpretation of AN/I. Could you cite your sources please? (2) Your “If you decide to stick around here, I think you're going to need a thicker skin and require less positive reinforcement” is a good example of a comment that does not meet Civility standards. (3) Since you brag on your User Page that you're into “outrage”, Civility is probably not your area of expertise, and I probably should not give your opinions on it too much weight. - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
    • @LeoRomero: Jytdog has already disengaged from you, so I strongly suggest you do the same and drop the stick - you are not going to get any admin action against Jytdog here, and continuing to push this could start to look like harassment and backfire on you. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
      • Boing! said Zebedee: (1) I, too, disengaged from Jytdog. Had I not had to file this complaint - which I did based on my understanding of WP policies on Disputes - I wouldn't be engaging with him at all. (2) I'm not holding a stick, and don't think such violent metaphors belong here. (3) Are you an Admin speaking on behalf of Admins? - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
        • @LeoRomero: "Violent metaphors" - LOL! You really do need to stop over-reacting, you know! And as others have said, you'll need a thicker skin if you're to have a successful and enjoyable time here (and if you think that's an uncivil comment, well you need a thicker skin...). As for whether I am an admin, I am actually a retired admin (and I have a lot of experience of this noticeboard), but there's no requirement to be an admin to offer advice here - and I can assure you you will not get any admin action taken against Jytdog on this. Now, whether you listen to what people are saying here, or continue to not get it, is really up to you - I've offered all the help I'm going to, so I'll take my leave now. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:35, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
        • The "violent metaphor" is referring to Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Please also be cautious of WP:CANVASS... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• Note. Other users are being approached to participate in this thread. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 09:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
  • The longer this thread goes on, the greater the chance that Leo's own behavior will be scrutinized. I would advise Leo to consider that. He's done nothing but give evidence toward his own trial. I would say that he should stop digging, but he probably doesn't even realize that he's in a hole, and, indeed, seems to enjoy this kind of drama ("I'm actually having fun, seeing how this goes; never filed a complaint vs fellow contributors before." in his previous frivolous complaint). NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ownership and harrasment

User:Dontreader has MAJOR ownership issues regarding the Camille and Kennerly Kitt article and uses harrasment and attacks to try control the content of that page, attacks that still continue [125]. Unfortunately an administrator has assited Mr Treader in these efforts.
"I refuse to let Duff get away with trying to edit the article". "You have already wiped out many well-crafted sentences and paragraphs that took me a long time to compose." consult with the main contributors to this page before changing the format of the references section."
Mr Treader had a single purpose account dedicated to editing this page. When someone dared suggest the twins were not notable and suggested that the page should be deleted Mr Treader (along with another editor [126]) launched a vile attack on another party who dared to fix up the nomination [127]. Whilse Mr Treader did post this it was clearly a hollow apology "she made a big mistake during that process" (NO she did not).
After leaving time to let those two cool down I later came back to the page and was greeted by a campaign of slander. Mr Treader went around to third parties and rubbished me with a serious of personal attacks. "guys like Duffbeerforme are out there without a leash" "He is suffering badly now, in this life, but he will suffer much greater torment in the afterlife" "Anyway, I have strong reasons to believe that Duffbeerforme and the anonymous user who first changed the style of the references section are the same person, and Duffbeerforme was very hostile, " I think it's a shame that there are very rude people out there, such as Duffbeerforme, who constantly roam Wikipedia behaving in a manner that is inconsistent with Wikipedia guidelines. Never courteous or constructive, or suggesting other ways to do things better; just highly destructive, making Wikipedia a war zone.", "I'm tired of my edits being systematically reverted by duffbeerforme" Individually most are not much but add them together along with running around to all those different places it becomes something. Admin User:Bgwhite's reaction was to tell me it's wrong to ask someone not to make personal attacks, to pretend that attacks were not attack, to state that Mr Treader owns the article and to tell me to reward Mr Treader for making attacks User talk:Dontreader#NPA. I objected to the idea of rewarding him so Bgwhite decided to ban me User talk:Bgwhite/Archive 18#Re Dontreader.
Places where Mr Treaders issues have been discussed with him by others. User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Archive/Archive 028#What am I supposed to do with this User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Archive/Archive 028#Hostile_activity_on_a_page_that_I_contribute_to. User talk:Dontreader#Final warning. User talk:Dontreader#Second NPA warning User talk:Dontreader#On being an effective editor. User talk:Dontreader#Please take it easy. User talk:Lukeno94/Archive 3#Camille and Kennerly Kitt page being considered for deletion. Talk:Camille and Kennerly Kitt#Time to move on.
An understanding was created where neither Mr Treader or myself would make changes, we'd make changes and a mediator would make changes. (note; not Mr Treader would tell Bgwhite what he wanted and Bgwhite would do it for him). Bgwhite broke that understanding at the behest of Mr Treader while demanding I stick to it.
Mr Treader belittling and attacks continue (User talk:Bgwhite#Lesser) and it looks like they have driven away the mediator who has shown incredible patience. Other recent diatribes, User talk:Dontreader#Roar (song), User talk:Dontreader#Lesser Cartographies, what have you done?, User talk:Lesser Cartographies/Archive 1#Harp Twins.
Bgwhite has continually, in complete opposition of the policy of WP:AGF, characterised my actions in a negative light. He has after insisting on discussion chosen to ignore what has been decided and impose his own version. He continually asserting Mr Treader's ownership. He continues to turn a blind eye to Mr Treader's continuing attacks. duffbeerforme (talk) 07:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• Looking at the AfD, it's pretty clear that there were a fair number of SPIs focused on this article were involved and those SPIs feel like promotional accounts. It's also clear that the AfD's result would have been keep in any case. Basic theme: though notable, there does appear to be a concerted effort to promote these twins and Dontreader, though contributing somewhat more broadly, looks to be a part of that. The article could probably use some editing to reduce its promotional nature. I didn't look at the disputes themselves, just the AfD and article. Hobit (talk) 08:06, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• Sign... Long story short, Duff hates Treader and Treader hates Duff. There is no love lost between them. I and Lesser stepped in and asked that neither side edit anymore. Any proposed edits be done by Lesser or me. Lesser took the point. Treader has kept to that and Duff has not, which resulted in me reverting Duff several times and his "love" towards me, including his non-AGF. All told, Lesser has made the vast majority of edits since the agreement. I've done two edits and two reverts during this mess.
• Treader does have some serious ownership issues and lack of good faith. However, he has not edited the article since the agreement nor had any ownership issues on other articles that I'm aware of. His temper has been directed towards Duff and Lesser. It did get so bad that I asked Lesser to recluse himself and walk away, which he did. I've asked Treader to submit any changes to me now. He hasn't edited since.
• There's nothing that needs to be addressed at ANI. Just Treader and Duff's hatred toward each other, Duff's unwillingness to move on, Treader's personal issues with this one article and both of their problems with AGF. Bgwhite (talk) 08:26, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
  • So you think it's ok for Mr Treader to continuously attack people?
  • Simple question that goes back near the beginning. Why is it wrong to ask someone not to make personal attacks? duffbeerforme (talk) 14:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Duff, the issue of personal attacks against me has been solved: I'm no longer mediating, so there's no reason for Don and I to interact further. You and Don continue to have the good sense to leave each other alone, and both of you have refrained from editing the article. That's about the best solution we can hope for. If Bgw starts allowing fancruft edits—and I have no reason to think that he will—then ping me and we'll all head over to WP:DRN. If Don goes nonlinear the first time Bgw declines one of his suggestions, then Bgw can ask an uninvolved admin to review the situation and warn or block as needed. For right now, though, we've still got a stable article and Don has stopped barking at me. Just hang out and we'll see where we go from here. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 15:32, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• • • • Bgwhite, please take note of yet another mistake made by Lesser Cartographies. He wrote above, "I'm no longer mediating, so there's no reason for Don and I to interact further." But then he added, "If Bgw starts allowing fancruft edits (...) then ping me and we'll all head over to WP:DRN." Why can't Duff go to DRN by himself? Is Duff a newbie??? If Lesser sees no reason for him and myself to interact further, and he has implied that I have attacked him, then why would he want to potentially see me again at DRN (and possibly expose himself to further "attacks") if Duff becomes unhappy with an edit you make? Duff can go there by himself if necessary. Besides, Lesser took a shot at you, implying that you (an administrator) might break the rules and let me get away with fancruft edits. A very cheap trick to give everyone the impression that you are biased in my favor, and to dissuade you from accepting ANYTHING I might propose for the article. And he's still plotting to eventually get me banned from Wikipedia by provoking me at DRN at some point. Lesser JUST DOES NOT LEARN. I can outmaneuver him and expose him even when I'm utterly sleep deprived. I'm glad all of this will be archived. If I make life difficult for Lesser again, it will be his fault entirely, but if Lesser is wise he will rectify and state that he won't participate in a hypothetical DRN scenario, to avoid further contact with me. Duff would not need his help (actually, Duffbeerforme, I'd feel very insulted if I were you). Sorry, Bgwhite, but I really think that my AGF issues are completely justified when it comes to Duff and Lesser. Dontreader (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hobit, could you please clarify the meaning of SPIs? If you are talking about sock puppetry then that would be a serious accusation. Also, there has never been a concerted effort to promote the Harp Twins on Wikipedia. I have never sent a private message to (or received one from) any of the contributors to the article. I did receive a private message from Lesser Cartographies, and I replied; we exchanged a few messages over a span of a few days, but it was within the context of his mediation role. I have no idea who the other contributors are, but they are obviously fans of the Kitt twins, as I am, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as the rules are followed. I believe there's a big difference between some editors contributing to an article about musicians they are fans of, and a concerted effort to promote them. Besides, the traffic to the Harp Twins article page is completely insignificant compared with the traffic to their social media sites where they heavily promote themselves.
• Regarding duffbeerforme, during the AfD discussion, he campaigned vigorously for the deletion of the article; then he showed up several months later on the article. This is what happened:

1. An IP address user (who had never contributed to the article before that day) made substantial changes, here, completely changing the referencing style. I saw no problem with the referencing style that we all had been using, and no one else had ever indicated that it should be modified, so I reverted that edit.

2. Duffbeerforme, who had never contributed to the article, changed everything that I had reverted, here. Is there even ONE administrator here that can remember ONE user that campaigned at length for the deletion of an article, and then at some point began to edit that article in an uncivil way? And if I have not proven that DuffBeerforme was uncivil, please read point 3.

3. I reverted his edit, and in my edit description I told him to make his case on the talk page, which is the appropriate and civil thing to do. Well, you can find his insulting response on the talk page to my very polite introduction here.

4. But Duffbeerforme was far from finished with his "contributions" to the article; he then made this edit. So, in order to try to reach a compromise, I took out the shop links, here, but then Duffbeerforme reverted that edit, here. His hostile manner could not be clearer, and that's how my war with him began.

5. Do you think he stopped there? Not even close. I went to RSN to ask if shop links were allowed in music articles to support content. Guess who answered my question? You guessed right: Duffbeerforme! Lesser Cartographies (mentioned above) scolded him for doing that, and that's approximately when he decided to become a mediator, to which Bgwhite agreed.

6. During those days, Duffbeerforme nominated two articles created by Robcamstone (the other main contributor to the Harp Twins article) for deletion. Both Lesser Cartographies and Bgwhite can confirm this information. The consequence of this attack was that Robcamstone retired permanently from Wikipedia, even demanding that his username be erased.

7. Bgwhite issued a final warning to both Duff and myself (identical messages on our talk pages, which you can read here. I have entirely complied with Bgwhite's demands, whereas Duffbeerforme has defied his authority as a Wikipedia administrator, editing the article, including an edit description which constitutes a personal attack, here.

• I think it is sufficiently clear who the real troublemaker is in this situation. Since I have spent valuable time defending myself here, I will take just a few more seconds to make one simple request: Please ban Duffbeerforme from editing the Camille and Kennerly Kitt article. That simple measure will solve this year-long problem (dating back to his passionate campaigning for the deletion of the article). Thanks for your time. Dontreader (talk) 21:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Don, it's pretty darn clear that there are a bunch of accounts which are purely focused, or nearly purely focused on this one subject. I've no evidence that they are working together or not (though I'd certainly put even money on it that some are). But you are clearly focused on this one subject (which is allowed) and others are much more so. do you have any kind of WP:COI with this subject? Hobit (talk) 22:48, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• • Hobit, please ping me if/when you write here again, if you don't mind. Which "bunch" of accounts are you talking about. I only see two suspicious accounts: Crowdsalesmed and Bollywooddancer7. It's possible that Crowdsalesmed (who created the page) became disillusioned with Wikipedia once the war with Duffbeerforme broke out. Robcamstone quit, all because of what Duffbeerforme was doing; however, I'm not here to defend Crowdsalesmed and Bollywooddancer7 (any other suspicious usernames, please?). I am merely a big fan of the Harp Twins. I even took a total of four planes and ten buses just to see them perform and meet them in person. Also, when I discovered that they had a Wikipedia page, I soon decided that a picture should be added. I NEVER imagined that it would take me over a hundred hours to get that done. After that, well, understandably I was going to defend the article from deletion with all my strength at the AfD discussion, which I did. What makes no sense is the effort that Duffbeerforme put into trying to get it deleted (and later he went back to the article to cause more trouble). The pain involved with uploading the picture (legally) did radicalize me when it comes to that article, I must admit, and then Duff's actions only made things worse. There is no conflict of interest. It would be wonderful if Camille and Kennerly sent me a nice check for all the crap I've been through here defending their article from Duff, and all the craziness that he has caused (I can't edit the article directly as part of an agreement, for example), but as I said, they care about their social media sites, not Wikipedia (I mentioned earlier that the traffic to their page is minimal). Anyway, I've agreed with Bgwhite to focus on other pages for several months. Please read my previous entry carefully again. I do want you to please consider banning Duffbeerforme from editing the Harp Twins page. He has made life miserable for many people on Wikipedia (examine his contributions if you have the time), and I suppose he will continue to do so, but all I can ask is for you or another administrator to please ban him specifically from editing the Harp Twins page since I'm already here at ANI. Thanks for your time. Dontreader (talk) 01:35, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes Mr DonTreader, I did argue for the articles deletion. That does not disqualify me from editing the page as you seem to want with your repeated demands for my banning.

1. That was a good edit. The referencing style was fairly useless and needed to be changed. It does not matter that they had not edited the page before.

2. That was a good edit. The referencing style was fairly useless and needed to be changed. There was nothing uncivil about it. As you were told, [128] "I see no hostility at all in improving references; on the contrary, it was a good thing to do, and there is nothing impolite about being WP:BOLD and doing it."

3. Your "introduction" was not polite. Demanding others consult you is not polite. Wikipedia is not here for you to make pretty shrines.

4. Wikipedia is not a directory of download links. My edit was good. You claim to have taken out the shop links. You did not. You just tried to use Wikipedia to promote the sales of their songs. Wikipedia is not a directory of download sites.

5. One of the many places you went venue shopping. Yes I did answer your question. That was a good thing. Yes I failed to fully disclose my involvement and for that I was duly trouted.

6. I nominated Jazz At the Theatre and Bonnie Langford Now (Selections From Her One Woman Show Live and Direct). Note that they are both deleted. Nominating article that do not belong here is not an attack. See [129] "if another editor notices you're creating articles without using reliable sources, it's not WP:HARASSMENT to review that editor's contributions to determine how widespread the problem is, and then to fix the problem. That's good-faith editing."

7. [[130]] "You are too wrapped up by Duff's actions. Let it go." You did not "entirely complied with Bgwhite's demands". You kept going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about my actions. And that's just March and April. Remember this? " I promise I will NEVER mention that editor again, on any page, as you demanded." The very next day you mentioned me [131]. Never lasted a long time. duffbeerforme (talk) 02:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• Mentioning Duffbeerforme became inevitable very quickly; it was foolish of me to promise never to mention him again. Anyway, I have made my case. I don't think I have anything else to add, other than the fact that it's obvious that for some unknown reason Duffbeerforme is clearly obsessed with the need to continue editing that article. It makes sense for me to want to edit the Harp Twins page because I'm a big fan of theirs, yet I will forget about it for several months and focus on improving other pages, as Bgwhite suggested; however, Duffbeerforme's irrational obsession with that article has caused massive problems, and this ordeal will continue as long as he remains able to edit that article. Therefore, again, I request that Duffbeerforme be permanently banned specifically from editing the Camille and Kennerly Kitt article; he has plenty of other articles to choose from to improve the encyclopedia. Dontreader (talk) 03:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• What happened in that one hour between promising never to mention me and you mentioning me that made it "inevitable"? Anything? duffbeerforme (talk) 04:24, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Comments and questions for User:Bgwhite.

"Any proposed edits be done by Lesser or me." The understanding was that Lesser would make edits, not you. You violated that understanding then demanded I stick to it.

Let's look at your "Final warning". "Duff is provoking you, just don't take bait." Mischaracterising my actions in a negative manner and assuming bad faith. "I've asked you to stay away to de-escalate the situation.". No you ordered me not to edit Dontreaders page (WP:OWN). "Nothing says prodding more than that." Once again mischaracterising my actions and assuming bad faith. "By doing so, you are doing purely to provoke and prod Dont." Once again mischaracterising my actions and assuming bad faith. Why was your incivility warning so full of incivility? Why did you bring up that line about baiting when you were baiting me? "The next time blocks will happen." Like the previous time you said you'd block Dontreader if he attacked me? "If I see it again, I will block you." This is followed by another attack <9 hours later, "I am absolutely certain that he has a serious demonic affliction". Still waiting. And the attacks have gone on and on and on.

Let's have another look at NPA. "You leaving the the NPA message to begin with was wrong." How was this wrong? "First, levelling accusations without proof is also a personal attack". Why say this AFTER I provided proof? "Dontreader, don't mention Duffbeerforme again in any messages." Is Dontreader following your instructions as you claim. "I do believe you went after Robscamstone's articles to look for what could be deleted". Once again Mischaracterising my actions and assuming bad faith. "Duffbeerforme don't work on one of Robcamstone's or Dontreader's articles." Why say that they own the article when their ownership issues are the core of the problem. Why were you trying to reward Dontreaders attacks?

Let's look at Re Dontreader. "You did specifically target other editor's articles for deletion." Once again mischaracterising my actions and assuming bad faith. Seems to be a common theme for you. "I did tell Dontreader if I see a personal attack again, I will block them." Still waiting. "Per WP:IBAN, I can ban you from interacting with Dontreader and I'm doing it." No you can't. "I've also addressed it with them and threatened blocks if they do it again" Still waiting. "Admins can impose interaction bans which also cover reverting other people's edits." No they can't. "I'd also advise you not to touch one of Robcamstone's articles for the same reason." Once again saying that someone owns an article. " If you think one of Robcamstone's articles should be slapped with a PROD or AfD, ask someone else to take a look. I have no problem if you ask me." I asked you. What happened?

This is not just as you describe above. It's also about your continued acceptance of Dontreaders repeated attacks despite your claims otherwise. And your talk of AGF while you do the opposite. duffbeerforme (talk) 04:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hobit and whichever other administrators are here at ANI, at this point it's absolutely clear that Duffbeerforme must be banned permanently from editing the Camille and Kennerly Kitt article. Lesser Cartographies stepped down from his position as mediator for that article, and the very next day Duffbeerforme opened a discussion here because he cannot cope with that reality; he is absolutely furious, and look at all the stuff he's been spewing out. This is beyond bizarre even by Twilight Zone standards. Did Duffbeerforme create the article? No. Was he a regular contributor to the article? No. Did he campaign with great intensity to try to get the article deleted? Yes. Had he made ANY edits to the article before the AfD discussion? No. Did he come to the article several months later, creating an edit war? Yes. Did he make the other main contributor decide to retire from Wikipedia by "coincidentally" nominating two of his articles for deletion when the war began? Yes. So just think about these extreme measures that Duffbeerforme is taking by opening a discussion here at ANI and saying all of these things just because the mediator for the Camille and Kennerly article stepped down. Why is he so mortified? This is totally irrational. There are many other articles that he can edit. And why was there a mediator in the first place??? We are talking about a highly problematic person, obviously, to put it nicely, with a perplexing obsession. I, as a fan of the Harp Twins, should be allowed to contribute to that article in peace, and of course I welcome others to contribute, and to discuss whatever differences of opinion may arise while editing it. But not Duffbeerforme; he must be banned permanently from editing that article. That is the only solution for this problem. Dontreader (talk) 09:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I won't speak on whether Duffbeerforme's edits are disruptive but it doesn't matter whether an editor had a hand in creating an article, unless they are topic-banned, any editor can edit this article. Saying you are a fan of the subject of the page doesn't give you more privileges or rights. Your (and anyone else') edits should be based on their merits, not on when an editor started working on an article or whether they are a fan or not. In fact, being a fan might mean that an editor lacks a NPOV. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Liz, thanks for your input. Could you please confirm that you are an administrator? You have several accounts, so I haven't checked all of them. Please read the entire thread. I am not able to edit that article because of the war caused by Duffbeerforme after he went to the article 6 months after he campaigned militantly for its deletion. You said, "any editor can edit this article." That's incorrect. I have not been able to edit that article for half a year, as part of an agreement reached with the administrator Bgwhite, which included Lesser Cartographies as a mediator. This peculiar situation is the consequence of Duffbeerforme's behavior (chiefly an irrational desire to edit that article, and in a disruptive manner), and of Lesser Cartographies' decision to try to be a referee for me (a former regular contributor to the article) and Duffbeerforme (a person who tried his best to destroy the article). Many articles about musicians are edited to some degree by fans of those musicians. Since you brought up NPOV, I will ask you if you believe an editor who tried to destroy an article and then comes back to edit it might lack a NPOV (or good faith, for that matter). Please read the entire thread, if you have a chance. This crazy situation has been going on for half a year, as I said. That's too long, and it should not continue indefinitely. The only solution is to ban Duffbeerforme from that article permanently. Thanks again. Dontreader (talk) 18:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:AIV is broken

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism has been broken for at least several hours. None of the user-generated reports are showing up. Not sure if this is a bug in MediaWiki or if some broken template farther up the page is causing the problem or what. (Purging the page cache has no effect.) Could someone knowledgeable in such problems please investigate? —Psychonaut (talk) 12:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Fixed it - the hidden comment at the top of the section hadn't been closed correctly, so it hid everything beneath it. Yunshui ^雲_水 12:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Can't believe I missed that. Oh, and not that it matters much, but the unclosed comment meant that reporters' ~~~~ markup didn't get expanded. When you closed the comment, all those codes got expanded to your signature. :) —Psychonaut (talk) 12:47, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I spotted that - I could try and fix it by carefully copying bits of the history, but frankly it's not worth the effort for a page that's updated so frequently. Guess I'll just have to take the flak for a bunch of reports I didn't make. Yunshui ^雲_水 12:54, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What to do about this?

A new editor's sole edit here is polyproblematic in an area that is under Arbcom guidance (on ISKON). Someone like to address it? LeadSongDog come howl! 16:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

You should probably (only) warn the user about his mistake, per WP:BITE, but still keep an eye out, see if he learns from his mistake, but the addition of a 2 on his username makes me have a feeling he is a sock puppet (although I am not calling him a sock puppet Per WP:AGF, just mentioning that it seems suspicious). Cheers! Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 16:32, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Er, yeah, but warn about the ELspamming of what is apparently his own website; or about choosing a username to match that website; or about linking to what is apparently a massively slanderous attack/gossip/rumour/victims' self-help page (one might suppose in lieu of direct BLP violations); or about what, exactly? LeadSongDog come howl! 20:57, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The username doesn't seem too bad (and I tend to be a little strict about them). If the username was actually "Breaking-free.info" that would be one thing (that is prohibited explicitly in WP:CORPNAME as a URL username) but Breaking-free 2 is at least not a direct match for either the site name or the organization name (which is called "Breaking Free"). To me adding the "2" to the name is just enough to distinguish it and suggests it's not a role account (per WP:ISU). And it does make the COI more obvious so it's helpful in a sense. That's just my opinion. However, the linkspam, COI, and POV in that edit (I don't think BLP applies to someone who died in 1977) are all pretty bad. My suggestion would be to at least warn the person about COI and spam (WP:PSCOI may be particularly helpful for that). -- Atama頭 21:35, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Many other people (some living) are accused on the website, not just the one dead one. I'm sure that unchecked the same links will show up on the articles about them too. (Ok, maybe that's not exactly a GF assumption, but ...) LeadSongDog come howl! 21:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

If other links show up we might want to consider a blacklist entry for the site. -- Atama頭 16:39, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Off-wiki canvassing

The current RfC on bird article names is seeing a recent influx of SPAs, and accusations of puppetry are flying. In the latter part of this section, some rather concrete evidence of this has been given. At this time, I am attempting to discuss this canvassing with the editor in question, and I do not wish to discuss his conduct here. Rather, I am hoping that an uninvolved admin will monitor the discussion and deal with these new editors as he or she feels is appropriate. --BDD (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Or just go ahead and close the RFC? It's probably time. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 21:03, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Put the RfC out of its misery, add the issue to WP:PERENNIAL, and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. --Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 11:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I have asked there if the people involved in the discussion would accept my close if I were to close. DGG ( talk ) 22:04, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:UAA

Can we get some eyes over at WP:UAA? We are getting quite the backlog thanks. Whispering 18:21, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Phyllis Baldino

([132]) So I have a guy over on this article removing what seems like validly sourced information, I asked him on his talk page what his motive was (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALinguini17&action=history only one version of the page) and he replies with an edit summary (it's in the report title's diff) saying he's the subject of the article.

Anyone care to lend a hand on the matter? MM (I did the who in the whatnow?) ^{(I did this! Me!)} 23:07, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

He'll be a she, then. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a problem here that needs administrative attention; discussing the issue (on the article's talkpage or on Linguini17's talkpage) is the way forward. At present, you're skirting 3RR yourself (this is a content dispute; you aren't reverting vandalism or BLP violations), so you really need to take it to the talkpages. I also note that Linguini17 hasn't removed the text again since your last edit. If you can't strike up a conversation about the disputed material than it's dispute resolution, not ANI, that should be your next port of call. Yunshui ^雲_水 07:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Good thing I don't generally do content then huh? Heh. Thanks guys, it just generally shook me that it was the subject of the article that I was dealing with, thankfully she seems co-operative. I was more than aware we both had 3RR having mentioned it on Linguini's talk (under the 'problem' wikilink) and I was planning to point it out and mention in this that she'd broken 3RR if she did a fourth. Thankfully she seems fairly smart. If there's nothing else of concern I believe the report can be closed. MM (I did the who in the whatnow?) ^{(I did this! Me!)} 11:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

She also says she created the article but it was actually created by a different user account. So, I would take the statement that Linguini17 is Phyllis Baldino with a grain of salt. Weigh the edits based on their merits, not a claim that the editor is the subject of the article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

User:117Avenue

User:117Avenue keeps reverting edits to 41st Canadian Parliament, Bloc Québécois and André Bellavance claiming that information that Bellevance is no longer BQ leader is not in the reference, however my reference at http://www.parl.gc.ca/parlinfo/Pages/PartyOfficersExecutives.aspx clearly states that the position of BQ leader is vacant. 192.235.250.130 (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The issue appears to be that Bellavance is an interim leader until the next elections, and perhaps as such does not meet the criteria to be listed as a leader. You seem to believe that Bellavance has also resigned as interim leader to run in the leadership elections - do you have a source for this, as I can't find one (the reference you used in the diff above does not back your statement up). Number 57 13:22, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

User:Swollib has vandalized DRN twice[133][134] and posted a rant about the Pope being behind a 72-hour block he received in 2005 on my talk page.[135] Somehow this is related to User:125.239.145.26.[136][137] Notifications sent. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:08, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The IP is currently (very unsuccessfully) disputing a block for trolling while ranting about claims that Wikipedia is controlled by Christians, funded by the pope, etc. I don't see much else needed there, other than the user perhaps losing talk page access and/or extending their block.

Swollib responded on the IP's talk page with a personal attack that I removed.[138] They seem to be pursuing "The Truth". The DRN posts seem to be trying to expose the apparent threat to "The Truth" posed by the IP. If Swollib doesn't hear the message to stop soon, they'll be blocked through the usual channels. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I have tried to respond to his madness by not attacking the crazy lunatic freak. I'm sorry for being in breach of the rules before. Swollib (talk) 14:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Try harder. Admins, may I suggest a revdel at User:125.239.145.26? Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Swollib indeffed. We're done here. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

When they started making disruptive edits to user pages, I had to put a stop to them. I've revdel'd the edits and deleted the IP talk as well. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 15:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Recurrance of disruptive Nazi-related editing by User:Hoops gza

User:Hoops gza has previously caused problems by adding individuals who do not meet the criteria for List of Nazis to that page and Category:Nazis, even going so far as to remove those criteria from the page and claim that they'd been added by a random editor (rather than by the creator of the list article, to prevent its deletion). He has also created an absurd number of redirects in non-English languages on the English WP, arguing that the rules against this didn't apply because the topic was special (the Holocaust). He's at it again. This time he's also creating obsessively-specific categories such as Category:Nazis executed by Albert Pierrepoint. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:10, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Let me get this straight. I added the Category:Nazis to people who were verifiable Nazi Party members (you can take a look at the German Wikipedia's de:Kategorie:NSDAP-Mitglied to see how this is done). Ergo, they were Nazis.Hoops gza (talk) 17:00, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I can say for certain that Hoops gza was incorrect at List of Nazis, the article's creator was Dr. Blofeld, and Dr. Blofeld was the person who originally added that language. The statement that Hoops gza made in this edit summary is nonsense (easily seen by anyone checking the article history). However, that edit war ended over a month ago, so it's not really worth bringing up anymore.

I'm also not sure what's problematic about those redirects, I don't dispute that there are "rules" being broken but I can't see where they are.

The category you mentioned above is at CfD, so the fate of the category should be settled there. The guideline for creating categories is here. I'm not quite sure, however, what determines whether or not a category should exist, and therefore what would be an excessive number of frivolous and/or redundant categories. To my eye, I don't really see what's wrong with these categories, I've seen some pretty crazy category creation sprees be reported to this board but this doesn't strike me as one. To look at all of the existing categories that Hoops gza has created, see this list. -- Atama頭 21:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Kitsada69 repeatedly removing speedies and PRODBLPs from articles s/he has created

Kitsada69 (talk · contribs) has been told, repeatedly, not to remove PRODBLPs, speedy-delete nominations, and unresolved maintenance tags from articles s/he has created, and has now done it again: here. There has been no response to any comments on their user talk page - possibly they aren't reading it. A short block might draw this to their attention and persuade them to stop messing around. PamD 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Blocked, indefinitely until they respond - not so much because of the problems you mention, which I think would have warranted at least a short block, but due to the creation of 5 pages such as User talk:182.52.164.90 - none of the IPs are actually Cox Communications IPs and none are blocked. They all edited 2014 Asian Women's Club Volleyball Championship. Dougweller (talk) 15:39, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Dispute over whether essay contradicts policy

This is more for experienced editors rather than administrators per se.

I wrote an essay I intend as guidance based on WP:AT and tagged it as a guidance essay with the "Guidance essay" template tag. Other users disagree with my interpretation of policy and feel the guidance is contrary to policy, and so the Guidance essay tag should not be there.

Anyway, please have a look:

• WP:Concision razor
• Wikipedia talk:Concision razor

Thanks! --B2C 16:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:NOESSAY states that essays that contradict policy should either be deleted, or moved into user space. What category an essay should fall under is a subjective determination of the nature of the essay, which can be resolved through discussion if people disagree.

Technically, this request shouldn't be here, it should be at WP:AN if you wanted to get the advice of administrators, or at WP:VP if you wanted the advice of editors in general. ANI should be for reporting a particular incident. -- Atama頭 16:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I considered WP:AN, but it says, "If you are seeking administrator intervention for a specific issue or dispute, you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead.", and WP:ANI says, "This page is for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Wikipedia that require the intervention of administrators and experienced editors."

Since I seek discussion about an incident (dispute over placement of tag on a particular essay stemming from disagreement about whether essay contradicts policy) requiring the intervention of at least experienced editors, I thought it was more appropriate to post here.

Anyway, the problem is that there is a dispute among experienced editors about whether this particular essay contradicts policy - I believe it requires the intervention of objective/experienced editors to resolve it.

I do seek to resolve this through discussion. I'm seeking input from objective/uninvolved experienced editors on this dispute to help resolve it there. Thanks! --B2C 18:10, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

If you run into serious problems resolving this dispute, consider the advice about dispute resolution, including the use of the dispute resolution noticeboard. I'm not unsympathetic, I wrote a Wikipedia space essay that twice ended up at miscellany for deletion; it survived the first discussion and only survived the second discussion with significant changes. (Changes which I conceded then were necessary, and still consider to have improved the essay.) So I understand your plight somewhat. But my essay is still around almost 5 years later (though modified by many other editors) and seems to be pretty-well accepted, so don't be too discouraged. And accept that some of your detractors may be right (in my case they were). -- Atama頭 20:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

It was resolved in discussion. There was a misunderstanding. Thank you. --B2C 00:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Ginger Alden AfD

On this AfD for Elvis Presley's fiance Ginger Alden, a user named Juliesong has attacked nominator Lady Lotus, accusing her of doing this simply because she doesn't like Ginger. Ad Orientem pointed out WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL to Julie, and they seem to have been disregarded. I also gave an analysis for how Ginger fails WP:GNG, which Julie didn't seem to fully acknowledge. Julie's rationale was that Ginger passed notability for being an actress, model, author, and Elvis' fiance. A user named Elwood48 also argued Ginger was notable for being engaged to Elvis. Since Elwood came off as a single-purpose account (only editing articles relating to Elvis and Ginger), Lady Lotus added Elwood to suspected socks in this SPI. I requested CheckUser for the accounts, and in the SPI an IP address made comments that Julie would've likely made which Julie ended up signing. Admin Ponyo performed a CheckUser which indicated the accounts are unlikely the same user, though AfD should be watched for meatpuppetry and/or further disruption. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 19:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Has an attempt to put CIVIL and AGF into the IP and Elwood? To be honest I already hear the DUCKs quacking, actually, when did the IP and Elwood first pop up? MM (I did the who in the whatnow?) ^{(I did this! Me!)} 00:19, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Roy hibbert

Hey guys someone vandelisez the Roy hibbert page. Including the height, pls fix thx! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1017:B015:54F2:357B:A87B:770A:D75 (talk) 20:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The place for such a request would be WP:RFP, not here. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 20:32, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a perfectly acceptable place for the request. Random vandalism doesn't need to go to RFP. --Onorem (talk) 00:09, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

The vandalism has been removed and the article has been semi'd. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Possible edit war on Sweden Democrats

Some sort of administrator intervention could be helpful on the Sweden Democrats article, which is currently subject to something of an edit war. Notable is I like the truth's at least 10 ([139][140][141][142][143][144][145][146][147][148]) edits to the article's lead section, replacing the edits of several different other editors. Edit summaries are being used to debate the issue rather than the talk page. — Swedishpenguin | Talk 20:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

User:I like the truth has been reported by User:RJFF at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. — Swedishpenguin | Talk 21:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• The WP:SPA I like the truth (talk · contribs) was created a week ago, apparently for the sole purpose of POV-pushing and edit warring on Sweden Democrats. They revert with edit summaries that propose the party's self-description on their webpage as a reliable source. Their argument (in edit summaries only; they have never posted on article talk) can be summarized as follows:

a) the academic source, Rydgren, is too old (2006) and Rydgren is "biased academic left" anyway;

b) the party's self-description is a better source for their ideology; and

c) if the party's self-description won't do, then the newspaper Svenska Dagbladet is a third-party source and trumps Rydgren because it's newer (2011).

Obviously a) and b) run counter to Wikipedia's reliable sources policies, and SwedishPenguin has dealt with c) efficiently on I like the truth's own talkpage, pointing out: "You pointed to an SvD article as a third-party source, but the article was merely a report concerning how the party is going to refer to itself. Therefore we're still talking about how the party defines itself, rather than how academic third-party sources describe the party's ideology based on their policies and ideas". This was a couple of days ago and has got no response, nor led I like the truth's edit warring to slow down any. Note that the user has been warned about edit warring, not only recently by RJFF, but also on April 18 by Iselilja. I've blocked the account indefinitely per WP:NOTHERE and for being a disruption-only account.

Note that I'm quite ready to defer to any admin who's prepared to give them a second chance in the event that they post a convincing unblock request. Indefinite is not you-know-what. Bishonen | talk 23:36, 24 April 2014 (UTC).

Update. Er… yeah. I guess the bit about deferring to the reviewing admin and so on is moot now. The user has just posted an unblock request, at least technically, and has had it, well, declined.[149] Bishonen | talk 00:09, 25 April 2014 (UTC).

Template-protected edit request

Can someone fulfil this edit request? Thanks — lfdder 20:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

This has now been declined w/ the excuse that there isn't a consensus for removing it. There's not any consensus for keeping it in the first place, but we don't mention that. Like I've said there, not only is Pigsonthewings wrong on technical grounds, but he and his enablers are, in essence, abusing their privileges as template editors. — lfdder 22:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Panel of three administrators requested for closure of Talk:Sarah Jane Brown#Requested Move 8

A proposal has been made at Talk:Sarah Jane Brown#Requested Move 8 to change the name of the article. The name of this article is contentious, with a previous move request resulting in a long discussion and move review. The request has already received strong responses after being posted for only one hour. To reduce any potential problems, I am requesting a panel of three entirely neutral and uninvolved administrators to close the request after the discussion has ended (in seven days). Please volunteer here should you be interested. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 20:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Someone seems to be having a hard time understanding the word "no". It only needs one admin to close it, the request is plainly disruptive. Guy (Help!) 21:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Nobody has used the word 'no' yet with regards to this request. I attempted to contact you through your talk page (in a nice way) and you replied with 'Talk to the hand.' This discussion is clearly contentious, and, as such, it is only appropriate that it is closed neutrally and formally. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• I closed that discussion neutrally and formally, per common sense and IAR. Drmies (talk) 22:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

As a point of order, so did I, but the IP that started this discussion reverted the close. I think it may be time to reach for the WP:TROUT. Guy (Help!) 22:03, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

You did? What a Guy-thing to do. Good for you. Drmies (husband of Mrs. Drmies) 22:05, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

A request should not be closed whilst discussion is still ongoing and there is decent support for both sides of the argument. A neutral close means to wait for users to comment and then to analyse those arguments neutrally and without any bias. Closing a move request after two hours is simply insufficient. I have reverted your close accordingly. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 22:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• And I've rolled you back accordingly, and will not hesitate to do so again. Consider this (<--this) a warning for disruptive editing. Drmies (talk) 22:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

You know what? I reviewed this IP's previous contributions, and they amount to a massive pile of wheedling disruptive bullshit. I have blocked it for a week. Look at talk:Pablo Casals. Seriously, this person is just yanking our collective chain. Guy (Help!) 22:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• That dancing around is kind of funny on the Casals talk page: "this person, who is now back home under their regular IP, confirms that that person was not this person, but the other person was". Yes, good call--thanks. Drmies (talk) 22:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• Well, now Anthonyhcole, who earlier opposed this "sexist, misogynist shit", has undone the close. Anthony, I love you like a brother/sister, but this is a complete timesink; good luck with it. Surely you should know that there's more broken pieces to pick up a week from now. Drmies (talk) 22:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I support blocking that guy. But please just let that discussion have its head. I want to know how fucked this place actually is. If you shut down the headline instances of obvious sexism like this with supervotes, are you going to follow User:Obiwankenobi around and stop him merging Category:American women writers into Categoty:American writers and all the other little cuteness he gets up to? Sorry, I'm not making myself as clear as I'd like. Mole-whacking, spot-fire-stomping isn't the solution, some kind of actual policy change is. (Don't ask me what.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

With respect, I don't believe that's a reasonable basis for prolonging this discussion, and would prefer to see it left as having been closed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Et tu? Sorry. I think we need to look at ourselves. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:43, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

My take is that there are, unfortunately, enough instances of naturally occurring bad behavior on the project without our unnecessarily adding to them. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

This is naturally-occurring bad behaviour, supported by many editors in good standing who have free reign here, because there is nothing in en.Wikipedia policy about respecting the dignity of our subjects. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Plus, I don't see how any policy we have could ever support such a title, so the only thing that would be uncovered is not "systemic sexism" in our policies, but rather the behavior of some of our colleagues--for whom we are making a nice spectacle here. Drmies (talk) 22:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

No policy opposes it. So we're left to local consensus with one side having to constantly argue IAR. See my response to NYB immediately above, and Wikipedia talk:BLP#Human dignity. (I support User:SlimVirgin's proposal - not sure if I mentioned that in the discussion.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I have restored the close, Anthony. It is clear from your comments here that your intended purpose is to foster disruptive drama. If you want to propose changes to policy, then propose changes at a village pump. Don't encourage a giant, disruptive waste of time in the name of WP:POINT. Resolute 23:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that's clear at all, Resolute. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:05, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

"I want to know how fucked this place actually is" is the statement that particularly damns you in my view. Your overall tenor and tone here, at that talk page and at Jimbo's talk page makes it patently clear that you are not asking for the discussion to remain open because of a desire to honestly resolve this debate. You seem determined to encourage and foster drama in the name of "proving" the existence of sexism. In short, you are basically arguing against your own stated position simply to try and keep this going. That is disruptive behaviour and IMNSHO, not a valid excuse to keep this RM open. Resolute 23:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, if I had to bet on it, I'd bet the pro "wife of" team would loose that one. But I'm not sure, and I'd have liked to know. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

It's extremely disruptive, and very much the same behavior that caused editors to be admonished etc. in the previous Manning dispute. That said, the RM should not be closed prematurely. Arkon (talk) 23:14, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

we have, I would estimate more than 200 other articles where people are disambiguated based on their relationships with others (wife, husband, sister, mother, daughter, etc), and I've never heard a complaint. In other cases we call them murderers or rapists or other unsavory things, as if the act of killing someone DEFINED that person, but we go ahead and dab on that when necessary because our main goal is to serve the reader. Anyway, I'd suggest we let the discussion run it's course, a year ago there were a fair number of people who supported the original title, which had remained per consensus for several years, and the IP has made a compelling policy-based case. It's a unique situation, in the last move request I proposed a great many other disambiguations but few took me up on them. I also recently voted for simply Sarah Brown per iaR but everyone else wanted to hew to policy on Primarytopic. If were to follow sources, of course, wife is the most frequently used dab for her, and Sarah Jane is never used. Ever.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:04, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

It's over, Obi. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:08, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Evidently not, as Obi has chosen to re-revert the closure. I suppose I'll just file actions like that away for future reference at the inevitable RFArb. Resolute 23:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Classic. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I request consensus here to reinstate the speedy-close the move request and leave it that way. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• strong oppose what is the matter with you people? The last move a year ago had at least 12 or maybe more editors supporting the original title by my recollection. This one has garnered 4 support votes within an hour of opening. Are you afraid consensus won't be with you? I see no reason to close a well reasoned and argued move request which was based on a very careful reading of policy, and must point out that the current title is in violation of every single titling policy except IAR. If you shut this down this is a small crew of admins ganging up and enforcing their version of consensus, which is not what the mop is for.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:32, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• OK. I'm persuaded by the above. Support. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:32, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support, obviously. I would also note that the Anon did get their three admins to close the discussion. Guy, Drmies and myself. Resolute 23:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support I fail to understand why the discussion has been allowed to be reopened repeatedly by individuals involved in the discussion. Each admin commenting here has agreed with Drmies' original (and subsequent) close. The original IP requested a panel of three uninvolved admins to close; regardless of the merit of the request that number has been well surpassed. If I wasn't logging off in short order I would re-close it myself. --Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 23:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Continued reversion of the close is WP:POINTy in the extreme. Guy (Help!) 00:09, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

  Why did you block the IP (131.111.185.66‎)who started the RM? Your stated reason is disruptive editing, but I see no diff to such, and a look at the editing history shows me no such disruption? Arkon (talk) 00:22, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

217.169.221.165's continual disruptive editing via removal of data from Srđa Popović

User 217.169.221.165 has been continually removing sourced material from Srđa Popović despite several warnings to cease such activity.Zvonko (talk) 22:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I have blocked the IP for a week. If the activity resumes when the block wears off, please file a report at WP:AIV or request page protection at WP:RFPP. -- Diannaa (talk) 23:55, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Bundy standoff‎

Bundy standoff‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Two editors may have breached the 1RR restrictions at Talk:Bundy standoff/General Sanctions

• Wowaconia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [150] and [151]
• Drmies (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [152] and [153]

Cwobeel (talk) 23:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Both editors were warned, asked to self-revert but was ignored. Drmies removed the warning messages from his talk page. Cwobeel (talk) 23:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I just added an editnotice, in case my HTML comment was not visible enough (especially to people editing sections). -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I created a template for warning editors about the general sanctions and 1RR at the article, at Template:uw-bundywarning. I copied it from a similar general sanction template. It's the first template I've made so if I screwed something up let me know. I left instructions about using that link on the general sanctions subpage. -- Atama頭 23:39, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Unblock requests category backlogged

Category:Requests for unblock appears to be unusually backlogged. I have been coming across requests that have not been attended to for several days. I'd appreciate if other admins would pitch in so that each blocked user gets a careful review of his or her request. Thanks, Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:09, 25 April 2014 (UTC)