Talk:NPR

Archive 1 (July 2003 - June 2006), Archive 2

Mediation

A mediation has been requested by MSTCrow because of a dispute over article content. It would be helpful if those involved (User:RattBoy, User:Calton, User:Bkonrad and User:ceejayoz) could signal their involvement by signing directly below using four tildes (~~~~). This is just to acknowledge you are willing to have a discussion about the issues, with myself as mediator. David L Rattigan 14:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• — ceejayoz ^talk 15:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• MSTCrow 21:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Okay, but I'll only be on sporadically; might not be able to keep up if the discussion goes fast-n-furious.RattBoy 01:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• older ≠ wiser 13:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Though I'm not sure how much attention I'll be able to give to this.
• Sign

Please add mediation comments below

• Not that I'm itching to get involved, but it looks as if this is a 3 vs. 1 debate; I don't know how fair or constructive a 'mediation' is going to be. Haizum 15:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's precisely the advantage of a mediation. David L Rattigan 16:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, I've never seen one in action. Good luck. Haizum 21:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me start.

First, let me say that I dispute MSTCrow's characterization of my activities in this dispute.

Firstly, he accused me of making a "personal attack." That because I characterized his edit as "unsupported dogma" in this edit. Well, that's hardly a personal attack. I said nothing about the man. "Dogma" might be a charged word, but his edit was clearly unsupported. (His edit had another problem: by putting "misperceptions" in quotation marks, he was, in effect, using the article as an instrument of constructing an argument, belittling the word that another editor had chosen. I don't think that's very encyclopedic writing.)

Secondly, on his talk page, he accuses those who disagree with him of editing in bad faith, writing:

It's not clear at all if the content is disputed because the truth makes liberals look bad, that the criticisms section has to be censored to keep too much of NPR's faults publicly known, or that "truth" isn't even allowed, see disc. on talk page. All three are in bad faith reasons for disputing content.

I can't speak for others, but I've allowed criticisms of NPR (mostly from the right wing, but some from lefties) to stay on the page, in keeping with NPOV.

That-all said, what about the content itself?

It seems there are two issues in play here. The first is: is it relevant to include the poll results in the article in the first place? The second is: are MSTCrow's edits an appropriate "counterbalance" to the poll results?

Is it relevant?

I was the one who inserted the "Supporters contend..." paragraph. The reason that I included it was to bring some objective facts to the table.

Prior to my edit, the section was one of the typical "Criticism" sections found in articles on controversial subjects all over WP: "Critics say that it has a (left/right)-wing bias. Supporters contend that the critics are a bunch of (right/left)-wing loonies. Nobody can tell the truth, because there is no universal yardstick for determining bias..."

But here's a source for objective information about the fruits of NPR's product. Somebody actually found out how well consumers were informed. Turns out, NPR and PBS consumers were well informed about the Iraq war—more so than any other news-consuming demographic in America. I believe that this information is well sourced, credible, and extremely relevant to an encyclopedic reader's understanding of NPR. As schools are evaluated based on their students' performance on standardized tests, news organizations can fairly be judged based on the quality of their consumers' knowledge. "By their fruit shall you know them," a wise man once said.

Contrasting NPR's audience with that of Fox News might appear to be a gratuitous slam at the latter, but that's not the intention. The poll found NPR/PBS at one end of the spectrum, and Fox at the other. The gross disparity between the news consumers' overall knowledge about key current events is relevant and encyclopedic.

I hope to address questions about MSTCrow's edits at another time. I'll just say that, if the poll results are inaccurate or misleading, then they should be counterbalanced. But if they're accurate, as I believe they are, then "counterbalancing" only fogs up the issues and weakens the quality fo Wikipedia as a reference source.--RattBoy 01:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediator's observations

1. I haven't seen any evidence of personal attacks. "Unsupported dogma" is not a personal attack, although I think it is in everyone's interest if we keep our explanations as non-inflammatory as possible. "Unsupported assertion" or "unsourced assertion" would have been better, and less likely to cause an argument.
2. All arguments must be backed up by verifiable sources. Wikipedia:No original research prevents editors from creating their own original arguments or critiques.
3. If the section is to remain as it is, it seems to me fair that User:MSTCrow should provide a verifiable source that makes his argument. MSTCrow, can we agree that in order to provide a counterargument to the poll (consistent with WP:OR), you need to cite another study or critique that makes your points (rather than making the arguments from scratch yourself)?
4. I'm not sure we need this much detail at all. MSTCrow, do you think it is necessary to give detailed arguments about WMD, Al Q'aeda etc in this article? My instinct is to say that if a verifiable source can be found that challenges the results of the poll, the most that need be said is something like this: Joe Bloggs [verifiable source] has challenged the accuracy of the survey because of its assumptions about the Iraq War. It seems going into more detail could lead us down a rabbit trail that's not directly relevant to the article.

What do folk think about those points?

Basically, here's what I'm looking for:

• Rattboy et al, do you agree that if MSTCrow can find a verifiable source that critiques the NPR survey, it is fair to mention the challenge in the article?
• MTSCrow, do you agree that if you can find a verifiable source that critiques the NPR survey, it can be mentioned without having to go into actual arguments for and against aspects of the Iraq War?

David L Rattigan 11:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if MSTCrow can find a verifiable source that critiques the NPR survey, it is fair to mention the challenge in the article. <suckup>By the way, Mr. Rattigan, thank you for undertaking this effort. I was skeptical, because I didn't know how you would "run" this mediation, but you have been constructive and fair. </suckup>--RattBoy 12:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Please note the actual survey questions as posted by Sdedeo above. MSTCrow's statements and sources do not address the actual survey at all. Ideogram 12:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

• For the most part, I agree with Rattboy's statements. This article is not the place to present evidence regarding the factuality of claims regarding the existence of WMD in Iraq or the level of contact and collaboration between Sadaam Hussein and Al-Quaeda (both of which are still matters of considerable uncertainty). IMO, the surevey itself is really not that essential to the article. It could be toned down to remove the fairly gratuitous slap at Fox News viewers or removed entirely, AFAIC. If there are any reliable sources that directly address the survey, then that could be included. older ≠ wiser 13:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I gave reasons why I think the poll is relevant to the article. Since you haven't rebutted my reasons, you haven't made a case for why you think it could be removed entirely.

I summed up "why" by saying I didn't think it was essential to the article. I personally do not object to it, but at the same time, I do not think it is a necessary component for encyclopedic coverage of NPR. If it is a bone of contention then I'd have no problem with simply removing it rather than engaging in protracted debates about the validity of the survey that are entirely superfluous to the NPR article. older ≠ wiser 13:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Re. the "fairly gratuitous slap at Fox News viewers," here's why I think it's relevant to contrast the NPR numbers with those of the Fox News audience: by itself, saying "only 23% of the NPR / PBS audience believed those untruths" has no context and, thus, little meaning. The intrepid surfer wouldn't know how NPR compares with other news outlets. (The other outlets could all be insignificantly worse, at 25-27%, for all s/he knows.)

If there's still a concern that Fox news and its viewers are being singled out for ridicule, perhaps the following phrasing would work:

In particular, only 23% of NPR listeners /PBS viewers held one of three common misperceptions about the Iraq War; in contrast, 47-80% of the consumers of other print and broadcast media were similarly misinformed.

That would give context to the poll; the surfer could check the link if s/he wants to know exactly which outlet's viewers were misinformed at the 80% level, and Fox-hounds need not be offended.

By the way, where do you get "both (the existence of WMD in Iraq or the level of contact and collaboration between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda) are still matters of considerable uncertainty?" WMDs were not found by the autumn of 2003. They have not been found to this date—Senator Santorum's trumpeting of decades-old, decaying chemical munitions notwithstanding. [1] Similarly, no substantial connection between Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda has been demonstrated. See the Saddam Hussein and the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda pages.--RattBoy 12:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that AFAIC, there has not been any solid evidence that either WMDs have been found or that there was any significant degree of collaboration between Sadaam and Al-Quaeda. But, I am willing to concede that others do not share my opinion on the matter and hence is still a matter of considerable uncertainty. older ≠ wiser 13:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

As Ideogram states, MSTCrow's sources don't in any way challenge the poll. They are irrelevant to it. — ceejayoz ^talk 02:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Why are verifiable sources that don't critique, but contradict the survey not acceptable? Any critique of the survey would necessarily include sources contradicting the survey's assumptions, so this is going to more first hand sources. My comments most certainly do address the actual survey, as it eliminates the very premise on which the survey relies upon. - MSTCrow 03:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Read the questions. Ideogram 03:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC) The survey doesn't make any assumptions. Ideogram 03:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

MSTCrow, WP:OR prohibits making original arguments and analysis. Making your own arguments, even if based on evidence, would mean doing an original analysis of the survey. The policy "in a nutshell" reads: Articles may not contain any previously unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position. David L Rattigan 07:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, ok, then the survey itself needs to be tossed, as it gauged NPR listener "accuracy" based on false assumptions of fact. - MSTCrow 08:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

You need to be careful, Mr. Crow. What you see as "verifiable sources" are in fact very partisan. You criticized me for listing Media Matters as a source on the Talk Page (despite the fact that I acknowledged that it was not a primary source, and that I offered to dig up better sources when I had more time), at the same time that you were listing Accuracy in Media and CNS News as sources in the main article. Your credibility will be maximized if you are consistent.

I agree with you, that the "assumptions of fact" listed in the survey are relevant to this discussion. You claim that the assumptions are false, but you make no good case for that POV in this discussion. Santorum's claim of WMDs having been found recently is both irrelevant to the 2003 situation and securely debunked (see the WaPo link given above, for one).

I agree that the NPR page is not the place to debate the whole issues of al Qaeda links and WMDs. We'd be here ad infinitum! For a reference, then, I think it's best to use the Wiki pages Weapons of mass destruction and Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda, neither of which supports your position. The survey reflects the best knowledge about the two issues, and thus it is appropriate for continued inclusion in the article.--RattBoy 12:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia page Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda does have multiple quotes and sources from those who believe the two are linked, while Iraq and weapons of mass destruction also lends credence to the existence of WMDs in Iraq, most notably 'Then on June 21, 2006 a report was released stating that Coalition forces had recovered "approximately 500 weapons munitions" containing "degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent" since 2003. [96] "Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions," it said, "filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War munitions are assessed to still exist." [97]' The survey was conducted in bad faith, claiming as undisputed fact matters where which either far from clear or positively known to be otherwise. It is not appropiate to include a heavily biased and skewed survey in the article. - MSTCrow 13:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Crow, what does the word, "degraded," mean to you?--RattBoy 12:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully we can drop this part of the discussion now. MSTCrow has agreed (below) to dig out a source that directly addresses the survey - wrangling over the Iraq situation is tangential. David L Rattigan 12:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right. Apologies, withdrawn, Sir.--RattBoy 00:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

No problem, my fellow "Ratt"! David L Rattigan 08:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Arguments for/against Iraq - red herring

I think debating the pros and cons of the Iraq War is leading us in the wrong direction. It amounts to a new analysis of the survey, which is original research. We need to stick to primary sources. The survey itself is one primary source. MSTCrow, it is fine to bring in a counterargument, but it must be sourced rather than argued from scratch. Do you have or could you find an appropriate source that challenges the survey? I think this should be the focus now, as trying to construct new arguments against the survey violates OR. David L Rattigan 13:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to locate a counter-source. - MSTCrow 10:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, great. That would be the most helpful thing at this stage. David L Rattigan 10:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, the actual survey questions:

Let's get one thing straight. Here are the poll questions:

• Iraq was involved in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks or proven to be supporting al-Qaeda;
• Weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq; and
• International popular opinion favored the U.S. war against Iraq.

None of these questions could possibly be argued to be true at the time of the survey. Iraq was not involved in Sept. 11. It had not been proven (at the time) to be supporting al-Qaeda. Weapons of mass destruction had not been found in Iraq at the time. International popular opinion was against the war.

MSTCrow keeps asserting the poll was based on false assumptions of fact. I invite him to specifically explain how finding WMD in 2006 implies weapons of mass destruction had been found as of 2003. Also let him explain how any of his other sources contradict the survey which specifically speaks of the situation as proven in 2003. Ideogram 18:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources challenging the NPR survey

MSTCrow is trying to find a source that directly addresses the NPR survey. Hopefully we can now concentrate on that, as a legitimate source directly addressing the survey would be fine within WP:NPOV and WP:OR. Would be great if we can steer clear of Iraq-related discussions for now, as they are only tangential and likely to get in the way of improving the article. Cheers! David L Rattigan 12:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The survey itself is wrong, and so it is inappropriate to use as evidence of factuality. Evidence of weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, as noted here: http://santorum.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=1078. I will remove the survey from the section. This is not new news. Shells found with traces of Sarin gas had been publicized (again, mainly by Fox News). Sarin Gas counts as a WMD, even if it was not in high enough quantities to kill someone. It is highly deceptive to consider Fox viewers as less well informed (especially using the loaded "missed one or more questions" criteria for judging) when one of the points is debatable even by experts. It doesn't belong as a reference in Wikipedia. Finally, Fox News also ran interviews with Iraqi WMD scientists, which other news outlets tended to ignore, which also highlights the contradictory informed/ignorant dichotomy between Fox and other news outlets.Wkerney 21:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The survey itself is wrong, and so it is inappropriate to use as evidence of factuality.

It doesn't matter what you think of the survey. That's just your opinion. Wikipedia is here to report verifiable statements made elsewhere, not your opinion. --Ideogram 21:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually it matters very much. The survey is not a valid reference for wikipedia. It is highly deceptive to consider Fox viewers as less well informed (especially using the loaded "missed one or more questions" criteria for judging) and NPR viewers more informed when one of the points is debatable even by experts. Additionally there were mobile bio labs found prior to that time that could be used for manufacturing WMDs: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/14/sprj.irq.labs/index.html. Furthermore, there were (and still are) disputed evidence of meetings between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. The survey is incorrect in stating there was no evidence. There was, it was simply disputed. To the authors, who clearly did not believe the disputed evidence, claim there was zero evidence, which is again an error and deceptive on their part. (And in fact, it's actually possible there was a connection: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/804yqqnr.asp) Finally, they do not actually provide the numbers from their sources showing that world opinion was against the war, instead only vaguely saying that unilateral action was opposed by the majority of people. They also do not print the poll results by population, instead breaking it down by country, which also skews the results (10 European Countries thought the war was justified, 11 opposed it -- I would be curious to see what the actual numbers were) (http://65.109.167.118/pipa/pdf/oct03/IraqMedia_Oct03_rpt.pdf page 10). Regardless, their own results do not support their contention that world opinion was strongly against the war. As phrased, the survey's use of "misperceptions" and "egregious errors", while the points themselves are in contention, is nothing more than deceptive and erroneous propoganda on their own part. Finally, since they were asking people for their beliefs and not evidence on many questions (they asked questions like, "Do you believe Iraq was responsible for 9-11" instead of "Has evidence been found linking Iraq to 9-11?") their methodology is further flawed. Beliefs are ideas held with or without evidence -- I can believe Saddam had WMDs even without evidence to the contrary. And, in fact, this is exactly why the 2006 report finding WMDs can be used in this case -- it justifies the belief that WMDs existed, and shows that the survey was wrong. I'm an evaluator, among other things, and can further tear this survey apart if you so desire. It is utterly invalid as a wikipedia reference.Wkerney 21:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't matter what you think of the survey. Read what I wrote. Finding mobile bio labs does not equal finding WMD's. Read the survey questions. Meetings between Saddam and Al-Qaeda do not equal Saddam providing support to Al-Qaeda. Again, read the survey questions. No, the question is not about the belief whether Saddam had WMD's. The question is about whether WMD's had been found. How many times do I have to tell you to read the questions? Nobody cares whether you're an evaluator. We only care whether you can cite sources to justify your claim that the survey was invalid. --Ideogram 22:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You ask for proof the survey was wrong, and when it is given, you try to play it off. Finding mobile bio-labs is indeed enough evidence to call the survey into question. If experts can disagree on the labs (which they did), it is deceptive and indicative they did not do their fact-checking to claim no evidence of WMDs had been found. Furthermore, I am not offering opinions about the survey. I offer factual evidence that the survey was incontestibly in error when it was written, was not fact-checked, and not credible. This means the source is not eligible to be used as a reference in wikipedia. See WP:RS. See the sources above. How many will it take for you to believe that the source is not credible, fact-checked, or reliable? You say that "Meetings between Saddam and Al-Qaeda do not equal Saddam providing support to Al-Qaeda." It appears you have not actually read the survey. One of the three major questions IN THE SURVEY (http://65.109.167.118/pipa/pdf/oct03/IraqMedia_Oct03_rpt.pdf page 5), asked: "Describe the relationship between the Iraqi government under Saddam Hussein and the terrorist group al-Qaeda". The options were: 1) "Iraq was directly involved in carrying out the 9-11 attacks" 2) "Iraq gave substantial support to al-Qaeda, but was not involved in the 9-11 attacks" 3) "A few al-Qaeda individuals visited Iraq or had contact with Iraqi officials" and 4) "There was no connection at all." Option 3) was the closest correct answer, even in 2003 (Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda). The survey states that Option 4) was the right answer, ignoring the various sources available up to that time, which demonstrates their disregard for fact-checking. (As new evidence from the Baathist archives has emerged, it turns out that 2) seems closer to the truth.) Worse, they even admit "there is some evidence for <option 3>", but then go on to call people that believe in it "egregiously in error". Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda documents the news stories in chronological order up through October 2003, take your pick from them. For example http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/21/wiraq21.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/04/21/ixnewstop.html was published in 2002. This is yet another reference demonstrating unequivocably that the source is in error, was not fact checked, and most likely biased. Sources such as these are invalid for inclusion in wikipedia, and should be removed.Wkerney 23:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I asked for citations, not your opinion. I already explained to you that mobile bio labs are not WMD. You have offered no sources that directly criticize the survey. I read the document you provided and your summary is completely false. Quote:

Indeed, only 20% chose the option that "Iraq was directly involved in carrying out the September 11th attacks". Another 36% chose the position that "Iraq gave substantial support to al-Qaeda, but was not involved in the September 11th attacks" --still a position at odds with the dominant view of the intelligence community, but less egregiously so. Twenty-nine percent chose the position that has some evidence in support of it, that "a few al-Qaeda individuals visited Iraq or had contact with Iraqi officials." Just 7% chose the option, "There was no connection at all."

And furthermore this text is on page 3, not page 5. Page 5 has nothing relevant to this discussion. --Ideogram 23:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Evidence of weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, as noted here: http://santorum.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=1078.

Read the survey questions. They ask whether WMD had been found, note the past tense, as of 2003. Your sources are irrelevant to this question. --Ideogram 21:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I will remove the survey from the section.

Do not do this. Editing a controversial section still being discussed on the talk page can lead to edit-warring. --Ideogram 21:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not new news. Shells found with traces of Sarin gas had been publicized (again, mainly by Fox News). Sarin Gas counts as a WMD, even if it was not in high enough quantities to kill someone. It is highly deceptive to consider Fox viewers as less well informed (especially using the loaded "missed one or more questions" criteria for judging) when one of the points is debatable even by experts. It doesn't belong as a reference in Wikipedia. Finally, Fox News also ran interviews with Iraqi WMD scientists, which other news outlets tended to ignore, which also highlights the contradictory informed/ignorant dichotomy between Fox and other news outlets.

Nobody cares about your defense of Fox news. This is an article about NPR not Fox news. --Ideogram 21:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Which is another reason why the section should be removed. "In particular, 80% of Fox News viewers held one of three common misperceptions about the Iraq War; only 23% of NPR listeners /PBS viewers were similarly misinformed." 1) It is indeed a slam on Fox News. If you only want to discuss NPR, simply say that NPR was the lowest misinformed of the news outlets. If you are wanting an article to make a statement saying that Fox news is the most unreliable outlet, then the accuracy of that statement is valid for discussion. 2) The viewers were not misinformed, so this section is mimicing an erroneous statement. The entire section is against the Wikipedia policy that sources come from reputable sources. To quote, "Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." The source uses deception and duplicity to make its point. It did not do its fact-checking, was not accurate, and was wholly not credible.Wkerney 22:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't rely on your opinion to determine which sources are are credible or not. Please quote the relevant policy that states this survey was not from a credible source. --Ideogram 22:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RSWkerney 23:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VerifiabilityWkerney 23:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Specific section and paragraph, please. --Ideogram 23:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)