User talk:Dwaipayanc/Archive 4

ITPA

Hi Dwaipayanc. The ITPA article is looking decent. I didn't know anything about it at all, so I could hardly add any info off hand. If there are different ITPAs, then maybe it would make sense to work it out in a way similar to Indian Institutes of Technology -- one main article, containing an overview, and then sub-articles for separate ITPAs. I'd recommend sub-articles only if there is sufficient to write moderately sized articles about those individual ITPAs. Otherwise, a single article covering all of them will be a better idea. These were some random comments. I don't think they were of a lot of help, but if there's any specific way I could be of help, let me know. Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 03:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I am back. I see a lot of work has been done on Kolkata article. What are the areas we still need to improve on? I will read the comments in review now. Oh and I am actually in USA right now. (Blacksun 06:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC))

Vehicle codes

You'd need to find out how many Regional Transport Offices serve the city region. (WB-01 eg) Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Barasat Basirhat Railway

Hi Dwaipayan,

Thanks for your comments on the Kalighat Falta Railway article. Well, since you mentioned about the Barasat Basirhat railway line run by Martin & Co., I have added a new article about the same. Please go through the same and add to it if you get to know any new info about the same.

Also about KFR, I am trying to find out the all the stations that formed part of it's route. Please let me know or update the article if you know of it.

Thanks,

Arya

Google is a great tool for us. It helps us locate everything that's on the web. You just have to collate it all and present a single source of truth. :)

Well, jokes apart, google does help. But then I knew something about these topics Have read lotsa books regarding the colonial history of Kolkata and it never ceases to amaze me. So just steered my thought train down memory lane a bit :)

Regards, Arya

You are doing a great work!

You are probably the best Kolkata contributor now, so It hought I would congratualte you and ask you to review the article Hare School. It's nice to see Kolkata and West Bengal slowly carving out a place in the encyclopaedia. Thanks. 59.93.192.24 13:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Due to a technical mix-up, I'm afraid your last edits hgave been lost. Will you mind doing them again? Thanks.Loom91 13:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Kolkata relegion stats

Hi! Did you by chance add the religion stats in Demography of Kolkata? If yes, what was the source? Basically I could not find out any source for the religion-wise division of Kolkata population - though the stats given in the article sounds quite realistic.--Dwaipayanc 17:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope, it was already there when I first saw the article. I will check the census site to see if I can find source. --Blacksun 17:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

FAC

I think you should nominate Kolkata for FA soon. I am personally pretty happy with it now and do not expect any major issues that cannot be addressed during the FA process. Yes, I know I can be impatient :P --Blacksun 05:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

FAC

Some minor things are still to be addressed. Like the Vehicle code in the city info box! Nichalp has also said about some errors. Let him see the article again. Also I will be requesting Bhadaniji and others for seeing the article. Copyedit is a never-ending thing! I guess it will take a few more days for FAC. Plus, we should ensure that the article is as solid and without loopholes as possible, so as to avaoid long debates in the FAC. Thanks a lot for your works. You are a very careful copyeditor!

However, we need the religion data! Please tell me where did you find the 2001 data, that may be included if more or less a respectable site. --Dwaipayanc 05:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not even save the site. It was not even online anymore - I had to use google cache. The data looked credible though in the manner it was presented. I think I found some Indian FA city articles that did not have the religion data. I will keep looking in the meantime. Indian census 2001 should have the data but unfortunately that site is horrible to navigate and its religious data link is broken. Typical. --Blacksun 06:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

yep, 1991 data will work for now. I searched everywhere that I can think of for vehicle codes. They are a pain. --Blacksun 06:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Kolkata Maps

Hey, I found two Kolkata maps that can be used.

1) Historical Map (1945): http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/calcutta_1945.jpg

2) I guess it is newer but I am not sure how good it is: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/calcutta_tpc90.jpg

No copyrights problem for this. Their is a special tag for stuff from this site. I also corrected the 1912 date to 1911 (thats what delhi wikipedia page has too) and took care of the products in economy. I am not sure about elevation - doesnt seem like a big problem.

--Blacksun 07:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

INCOTW

You voted for Indian cricket team, this week's Indian Colloboration of the Week. Please come and help it become a featured-standard article. - Ganeshk (talk) 07:30, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Kolkata

I need to copyedit the article. It will take me 2-3 days to do this. Meanwhile please see if you can get the RTO numbers. AFAIK WB 01 -- WB 04 are city numbers. =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

That Kolkata locator map is a POV one. Please replace it by a standard map used in Mumbai or Chennai. =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Map

How do you like this map I added ? And where do you think the map can be placed in teh article, if at all...?--Dwaipayanc 12:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Yea, I like that map. But yes its a good question where to place it. Hmmm. I think we should consider replacing the sattelite image in urban structure with it. Otherwise, we might end up having too many map images in the article. --Blacksun 16:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Map images

Hi! See Image:KolkatainIndia.png and Image:Calcutta Map.jpg. Can you mis these 2 a la Bangalore infobox? I do not know hoe to handle this photo-editors. At least, use the Image:KolkatainIndia.png and highlight a la Mumbai and Chennai. I tried, with pathetic result! Thanks. Bye.--Dwaipayanc 17:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't. I dont have the required software. I wouldnt dare to attempt that with Microsoft paint. --Blacksun 17:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Ray

Actually I didn't know abt that one. Thanks--ppm 05:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Great idea! carry on--ppm 18:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Between, have u read Bijoya Ray's autobiography, I heard it has a lot of info about the alleged relationship between Satyajit and Madhabi.--ppm 00:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Reply

Guys like that don't deserve any etiquttes either on the streets or in any forum, the guy was a raving lunatic. Anyways, i tend to erase my talk page every now and then, this time though i'll leave it for awhile.Freedom skies 09:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

query

eto discussion kader sathe korechis?

BindasRupamR 18:20, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Archive the review?

Should we archive the review now? If so, can you do it. I have not figured out how to do that yet. BTW, no one seems to be copy-editing anymore!! FAC hehe --Blacksun 07:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Reply

I have replied on Talk:Kolkata. Can you join #wikipedia? If you cannot connect to the IRC network or need help. Please visit IndianIRC. Thank you. --Andy123(talk) 11:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is a problem that I had been facing for quite sometime as well. I'd ask you to visit my IndianIRC page for further instructions. As it is, Indian IP Addresses are being currently rejected by the freenode.org server. You will be able to connect to it, once you activate a proxy connection. Thank you. --Andy123(talk) 03:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry

Sorry, couldn't resist a needle. I'm sure it's the same guy every time and it's starting to annoy me. Shouldn't rise to the bait I suppose. Sikandarji 18:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• I've left a comment on the Talk:Subhas Chandra Bose page on one passage, but you may regret asking me as I am not an admirer of Bose, and particularly disapprove of his actions during the War. I thus find it hard to maintain a NPOV on him and have always refrained from editing the main page. Actually though, apart from the 'Political Views' section I think it's fine and fairly balanced. Sikandarji 22:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• Fascinating stuff - I'd agree with most of what's in that article (well, nearly all of it in fact). It is only one POV, but it is one that is rather under-represented on the page at the moment. Obviously I wouldn't want the article changed to read 'Bose was a Fascist', but if it could be explained why some people think so (and, furthermore, that this is not the same thing as being a Nazi, which is an important point) then that would be an appropriate place to use the reference. I am sure there are plenty of book references that could be used as well. It also lends much more credenc to the view that the British were seriously worried about Bose (although I still think 'panicked' is too strong a word). Regarding the Attlee quote - he knew very little about India, and probably didn't realise Gandhi's vital role in turning Congress into mass movement in the early 1920s, or launching Quit India, but saw him purely as the rather isolated figure of 1945-6. For what it's worth, I think the moment the British realised that they would have to leave India sooner rather than later, was when Congress in 1937 was able to insist that British taxpayers' money should pay for the re-equipping of the Indian army, given that by this stage having a large, free Imperial fighting force paid for by the high taxes imposed on India was one of the principal benefits the British received from their rule. Congress would not have been in a position to insist on this without Gandhi, as without him the British could probably still have dismissed them as a middle-class talking shop (which is what they did during WWI). Instead Gandhi had given them a mass support base, and powerful new tactics in satyagraha which played to Indian strengths and exposed British weakness, because it revealed that they were incapable of sustaining their rule purely by force, without Indian cooperation. Sikandarji 07:25, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

• OK, I've made some changes using the reference you gave me, and I will seek to boost the references over the next week or so. I am at home at the moment without access to libraries, but I will be back in Oxford in ten days and able to look stuff up. Thanks for being so tolerant! Sikandarji 08:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

• No offence taken - I've never thought of this as an edit war at all: indeed given the passions aroused by the subject your approach has been extremely civilised. I will seek out a reference, but what I really meant was that a) most Indians (and particularly the Congress leadership of the time) would not have wanted to see an Axis victory in World War II - I think it unlikely that many would dispute this. b) that Indian politicians at the time did not have to make a straight choice between supporting the Axis and thus bringing about Indian Independence, or resigning themselves to the continuation of British rule indefinitely in the wake of Allied Victory. By 1941-2 it was pretty clear that the British would have to leave India once the war was over (even if dinosaurs like Churchill couldn't accept this) as their grip was slipping despite the unprecedented numbers of British troops in the country. They had already had to make substantial (and unwilling) concessions in 1935, and I have already referred to the fact that they had to agree to pay for Indian rearmament themselves in 1937 (will find ref.). This had been brought about largely through Gandhi's advocacy of non-cooperation, which struck at the heart of British Rule, as it depended on Indian cooperation and could not be sustained solely by force (chillingly revealed at Amritsar in 1919, which as well as being a horrific massacre was a political disaster for the British). c)These methods were ultimately successful as the British left in 1947 (I don't need a reference for that, do I)? - this was partly owing to domestic problems and the overwhelming expectation amongst the British public that all British troops would be speedily demobilised after the War(which is probably what Attlee was referring to). However this basically underlines the fact that Gandhi and the Congress had simply made the political and human cost of staying in India far too high for the British, and that was what they had intended from the beginning. They drove the British out without foreign aid, but the Allies still won the war. Peep into a parallel universe where Bose had succeeded and the prospect is far more sinister.......Sikandarji 10:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way - sorry to keep bombarding you with stuff, but my understanding of Gandhi's role, and the manner in which the Congress successfully drove out the British, is largely derived from Judith Brown's Modern India. The Making of an Asian Democracy (Oxford) 1999 (2nd Ed. -I think) and her Gandhi: Prisoner of Hope (can't remember date, think it was published by Yale). She is the Beit Professor of Imperial & Commonwealth History at Oxford and I know her well. Even many of those opposed to aspects of Brown's interpretation are largely in agreement on Gandhi's importance in turning Congress from a Lawyers' talking-shop into a Mass movement. In Subaltern Studies I there are pieces by Sumit Sarkar and Shahid Amin which examine his work in rural areas in the 1920s. I will get precise references to these and other works on Bose himself and the transfer of power when I return to Oxford. Sikandarji 10:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Calcutta

Sorry for the delay in summarising. Will probably do so this sunday. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza Newsletter, Issue #2

Barnstar Brigade The Barnstar Brigade is a new program aimed at giving more very deserving yet unappreciated users barnstars. It will officially start on 2006-04-09, but signing up is encouraged before this date: "Here in Wikipedia, there are hundreds of wikipedians whose work and efforts go un-appreciated. One occasionally comes across editors who have thousands of good edits, but because they may not get around as much as others, their contributions and hard work often go un-noticed. Sadly, these editors often leave the project. As Esperanzians, we can help to make people feel appreciated, be it by some kind words or the awarding of a Barnstar. A project the size of Wikipedia has thousands of editors, so there are plenty of people out there who deserve recognition, one just has to find them. The object of this program is not to flood editors with Barnstars, but to seek out people who deserve them, and make them feel appreciated." Stress Alerts The Stress alerts program aims at identifying users who are stressed, alerting the community of thier stress and works in tandem with the Stressbusters at trying to identify causes of stress and eliminating them. Information Welcome to the second issue of the new format Esperanza Newsletter - we hope you still like it! This week, it was delivered diligently by our new dogsbody. MiszaBot (run by Misza13): any execution complaints should go to him. Content comments should be directed at the Esperanza talkpage. Thanks!

The last AC meeting (full log) The next elections: Approval voting as before and, also as before, an previous leadership member can run. Please submit your name for voting in the relevant section of this page. Voting starts on 2006-04-23 and ends on 2006-04-30. There will be three places up for grabs as KnowledgeOfSelf is leaving Wikipedia. Please see the previously linked page for full details. The Code of Conduct is now ready for extensive discussion! Specific comments should go to the Code of Conduct talk page, discussion of having one at all should be directed to the main Esperanza talk page. The current process for accepting proposals for new programs has been deemed fine. All Advisory Council members and the Admin Gen are to endevour to be bold when viewing discussion. If they feel that consensus has been reached, they will act accordingly. A plea from the editor... The propsed programs page is terribly underused! Please leave any comments, good or bad, on the page, to help us determine the membership's thoughts on the ideas there. Signed... Celestianpower, JoanneB, Titoxd, KnowledgeOfSelf and FireFox 19:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

!!!

how much looooonger ! --Blacksun 22:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

not yet, have done some anonym edits. good luck--ppm 06:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

INCOTW - South India

You voted for South India, this week's Indian Colloboration of the Week. Please come and help it become a featured-standard article. --hydkat 10:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Sonargachi

I already have and I think a one-liner quite alright. Cheers. --Andy123(talk) 10:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Eden photo

They are both FAR better than the present one. The light in the second is better. --Blacksun 20:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the Medical College photo is not good-quality (Education). The light is bad. A good-quality pic of University of Calcutta would look better. What do you think?--Dwaipayanc 20:24, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I kindav like the medical college photo cuz the building is cool (yes it is bit bright though). However, I have not seen University of Calcultta so I am not sure if it will be better or not.--Blacksun 20:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

See the photo of Medical College main building. I just changed it. Does it look better than the previous one? University would look something like this (the color of the buildings are similar).--Dwaipayanc 20:30, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Ya that is fine. I *still* prefer the building in the previous one cuz of its different type of architecture. However, this one is good too and quality is certainly better. --Blacksun 20:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm back

Yo Dwaipayanc - I'm back after a very good trip. Wanted to tell you you're doing great work on Kolkata. I read the few comments on a possible nomination for adminship. It would greatly please me to see you as an admin. You're great at interaction and working with people, and your work is diverse and rich. What I think you need is more experience in Wikipedia policy - try working on Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol.

Lemme know whenever I can be of assistance to you. Keep up the great work! Rama's Arrow 21:24, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

It was actually a great trip travelling-wise. I had to keep at work in Bombay, but I got to visit the Rann of Kutch. Its one of the most remarkable places on earth. Yes I do have a boatload of stuff for Wikipedia, lekin abhi bhanda nahi fod sakta mein.

This trip increased my love for the state of my ancestors. Gujarat has got every element of Indian history, natural beauty and culture. Its purely amazing. I also found Ahmedabad to be much better than Bombay - however I can't turn on my mother, no matter how ugly she's becoming. Rama's Arrow 08:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah well, you better pray for your Kolkata. I am consistently annoyed by the impossible naivete of Wikipedia in describing life in places like Bombay - if we could plug that hole, we'd go a long way in providing genuine, valuable information. Rama's Arrow 08:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Inuse

Soory about that. I'll be doing the history and geography sections for now. You may continue with the rest. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah there was a list, but Bhadani and I stubbed all of them a few months ago. I'm not happy with the =history= section. The text is still patchy and needs to flow well and stay firmly on course. Geography is ok, but history needs to be fixed first. Also please confirm if the city region (not the metropolitan city limits) includes all the districts mentioned in the infobox. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:51, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

You would have to only include the districts that the KMC has jurisdiction over. The infobox includes a footnote space to add a note that the city region partially overlaps into the Parganas districts. To answer your question about Mumbai: yes, the entire district of the MSD comes under the BMC. Don't worry about the copyediting, copyediting should always be done by fresh pairs of eyes. Concentrate on adding information and checking the authenticity. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Kolkata

I'm more than happy to help, but as for the references it's not so much a hard-and-fast rule as a preferred order. Green Giant 17:17, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

sorry I didn't notice. i'll do something abt it--ppm 05:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

thanks

Thanks for completing the job on filmography. Btw, I though Kapurush and Mahapurush were released together, how come they are in different years?--ppm 19:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

In the culture section of India, various film industries are mentioned, but not Bangla. I asked in the talk to see what the production/revune of various film industries are, and what criterion was used to determine which gets mention, but nobody responded. Now somebody has added Bhojpuri to main indian film industries, and still Bangla is absent. Is this really representative of the relative importance of Bhojpuri and Bangla films? Can you kindly take a look?--ppm 23:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I restored your edit

You wrote on Talk:South India : "Wow! That's great! I mean the Scandinavia model. Really, creating the article in the way Robin klein has suggested will be great. Thanks a lot! Bye"

I think you are very hurt that I reverted the extensive effort that you put in with so much soul. But please it is even more important to keep up the very ethos of an article. Please dont feel bad. Robin klein 13:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dwaipnayanc I have restored your edit on south Indian culture and heritage. I have written my comment on the talk page. thanks bye Robin klein 23:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey Dwaipnayanc,

Thanks for your kind words, I was scared that you would not come back to the wikipedia and would stop editing. thanks for continuing the work. I have put some comment on the south India talk page, may be you could check it Robin klein 11:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dwaipnayanc

you wrote on my talk page

"Hi! Why shouldn't I edit? These things always happen..! Let's see what others say regarding the way the article should be oriented. I support your view, especially the fact that the article might emerge as one of the firsts of its kind! However, I do not support blindly. I mean, even if the subsectioned "culture" is retained, at places, it is too repetitive. Needs copyedit. Bye"

Hey Please edit. Yes you are right even if the subsections are retained it needs to be copyedited. Please do it. It would be very instrumental for this page to become comprehensive. Robin klein 13:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dwaipnayanc

I made some eidts and comment on the south india page and talk page. please see it.

The South Indian culture page is redundant. I am redirecting it to the page South India. Given the idea that this page could probably emerge as a model for other linguistic-cultural regions. what is really needed is for each sub section to be expanded in its own. Meaning the section south Indian music is already expanded, the section south Indian painting needs to be expanded, the section on Architecture South Indian Architecture etc need to be started. So the present section of culture and heritage is okay but the extra pictures need to be transfered to expanded sub sections.

Robin klein 05:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Image:Signature.gif

Hi. Someone at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rabindranath Tagore asked about what date Tagore wrote the signature in Image:Signature.gif. I noticed that you were the one who uploaded it back in November 2005. Is there any way to identify its date? Thanks. Saravask 18:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

lalala

So whats going on with Kolkata? What needs to be still done? I am hardly seeing any activity. Sunday is long gone! --Blacksun 04:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

No problem with the sig's dat — this is not urgent. By the way, thanks for the barnstar — it really made my day. I hope you can put up Kolkata for FAC soon, and let me know if you need anything. :-) Saravask 04:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Kolkata

Hi! Yes, I'll try and review it once again. My pending issues is like this:

1. Review IIT again
2. Draw the India SVG map (imp). (If this is sucessful, we'd have a brand new locator map for all cities and towns in India)
3. Sumarise + review Kolkata

I will try and acomplish it this weekend. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Kolkata

No problem — if it is just general knowledge that everyone in Kolkata knows, then no need to cite it. We have exactly the same problem at Kerala (especially in the "History" and "Culture" sections, where it's hard to get sources). I'm just speaking from experience, where I've been burned at FAC for leaving in uncited but useful/true generalizations like "argumentative culture" etc. I personally fon't have a problem w/ it. Thanks. Saravask 07:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Satyajit

Hi, ya u guessed right I am new here. Anyway I am simianwolverine or Simi or Simian(not simmian). I saw some of your works. Awsome.Great to see someone working so much for Kolkata here.

Anyway in Literary creations of Satyajit Ray u missed his Translations from Konan Doyle and others. (Braziler Kalo Bagh)

Simianwolverine 11:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Re:Hey

Yeah I came to know that Rabindranath Tagore have become a FA. It's news to me that Bangladesh is soon gonna become one.

Sorry man, I was far from my PC for sometime now and could see your message regarding the Calcutta Presidency only today.

Anyways, great going from you, and surely if Kolkata becomes a FA it'll all be due to your tireless efforts to ensure that it does become one.

Arya

Review

Kolkata: I've reviewed two sections and embedded my comments. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

New review

No, I can't find the new review. Where is it? I must be blind. Don't worry I am copyediting your new additions. --Blacksun 20:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Utility questions

I have questions for you:

• The KMC supplies potable water to the city, most of which come from the Hooghly river after being treated at Palta water pumping station (under KMDA), in North 24 Parganas.

This sentence is confusing and longish. Ignoring the comma part: The KMC supplies potable water to the city in North 24 Parganas. Is that correct? Sorry I am not from Calcutta and dont really know the specifics. Is their a city outside the North 24 Parganas? Does this sentence need "North 24 Parganas" in it? For the comma section: Do we need to state who treats the water or would simply saying "after being treated" suffice?

• The reservoir at Tala in the northern part of the city is the largest water reservoir within the KMC area.

This statement feels like it does not belong in its present form. Do you think it is the main water reservoir used by the city? Also, the wikilink for Tala seems to be irrelevant as it links to articles that have nothing to do with kolkata. Can you give me more information about this? I think it can be merged with the previous statement but I dont know enough. --Blacksun 20:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok thanks for the explanation. I made some changes based on your description. Do you think it is better?--Blacksun 20:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Bangla

There is some new activity in the article. Since you are in Kolkata, is it possible to get hold of a pic of some old Bengali writing, printed or handwritten? Say a page of old Anandabazar, or even Bongodorshon/Sangbad Prabhakar? Other good language articles seem to have some. Thanks--ppm 06:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)