Talk:Gough Whitlam

CIA and the dismissal

An editor recently added an undue tag to the section which summarises the allegations about the CIA's involvement in The Dismissal. Generally, that editor should start a talk page discussion to provide their reasons for adding the tag. Burrobert (talk) 12:45, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I might tend to agree that the allegations, which are not very substantiated, are covered elsewhere and here is not the place for them. at such length Wehwalt (talk) 13:32, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

There is a separate article about the allegations, so it would be reasonable to only include a summary here. We could discuss how much of the issue to include. Presumably the editor who added the undue tag is suggesting that the whole section be removed because they considered the allegations a conspiracy theory. That would be unwarranted given the level of commentary available about the allegations. Burrobert (talk) 14:31, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Their edit summary said, "why are we devoting one-third of this section to boosting a conspiracy theory?" I would suggest that a paragraph of three to four moderately-sized paragraphs would suffice for this article. Wehwalt (talk) 16:33, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

In that case it does not need much trimming, since it only consists of five paragraphs, each of which consists of between two and four sentences. The key points to cover are: that there are background reasons for the CIA wanting Whitlam removed; that there is some circumstantial evidence for CIA involvement; and that some people do, and others don't, believe the CIA was involved. Burrobert (talk) 16:53, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I've shortened it while trying to keep to those points. The Anthony CIA involvement seemed to me peripheral. Wehwalt (talk) 17:17, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Right-ho. Anthony's connection to the CIA is mentioned in the Alleged CIA involvement in the Whitlam dismissal page. However, there is no mention that the CIA officer Stallings channelled money to Anthony, so I will copy that across. Burrobert (talk) 17:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Structure not adhered to - Revision necessary

Despite several attempts to properly amend this article as to be in alignment with the consistent structure used across the wikipedia pages of office holders in Australian politics, including those of prime ministers, premiers and chief ministers, the amendments have been continuously reverted despite them effectively contributing to the betterment of this page. The amendments include:

- “Edward Gough Whitlam AC QC (11 July 1916 – 21 October 2014) was the 21st prime minister of Australia, serving from 1972 to 1975. He held office as the leader of the Australian Labor Party(ALP), of which he was the longest-serving.”

— To be revised to:

- “Edward Gough Whitlam AC QC (11 July 1916 – 21 October 2014) was an Australian politician and barrister who served as the 21st prime minister of Australia from 1972 to 1975. He held office as the leader of the Australian Labor Party(ALP), of which he was the longest-serving.”

Such amendments would make this page homogeneous with the pre-existing pages of all Australian prime ministers (it is currently the only page of 31 to not use this template whereby the nationality, then primary occupation or occupations, is stated directly following the name of the individual).

It would also be worth noting that keeping this page in its current form does not align with the pages of essentially all political figures on the project, including those of Canadian prime ministers and members of parliament, American presidents and congresspeople, British prime ministers and members of parliament etc. you can view the few linked here for reference and see that every page adheres to the structure I have proposed to introduce on this page, however you may use wikipedia yourself to find any past or present office holders who are by vast majority afforded the aforementioned style of name-nationality-occupation: i.e. Bob Smith (DOB) was a Nationality occupation and occupation who served as the etc etc.

I implore those who continue to tirelessly revert these amendments to consider what has been clearly outlined and what is standard practice, and good practice, when editing office holders pages on Wikipedia. This is a very basic amendment which puts this page on-par with all others in Australian politics - and most on the Wikipedia project as a whole.

Dr.Editorias (talk) 02:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Many biographical articles have the formulation you employ, but many do not. You are mistaken when you say all US presidents have the formulation, at least ten do not. What is important is that the first sentence mention nationality, and that is certainly implied by mentioning that the individual is prime minister of a country. How it is done is a matter for editor discretion, in the absence of a policy dictating a certain formulation. See MOS:REDUNDANCY. It would be nice to have the other Australian prime minister articles on a par with this one as this is the only one to be a Featured Article. Wehwalt (talk) 16:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

User:Dr.Editorias has argued the case well. Multiple reverts of their edits appear to be in breach of Wikipedia guidelines.

On precisely this matter Wikipedia says:

”Do not revert unnecessary edits (i.e., edits that neither improve nor harm the article). For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse. Wikipedia does not have a bias toward the status quo (except in some cases of fully developed disputes, while they are being resolved). In fact, Wikipedia has a bias toward change, as a means of maximizing quality by maximizing participation.”

See WP:DONTREVERT

If these multiple reversions are to be accepted as legitimate, the reverters must successfully explain that the edits by Dr.Editorias actually make the article worse. Dolphin (t) 22:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)