Talk:Andrey Kolmogorov

Spelling

Andrey or Andrei

Is the preferred spelling not Andrei rather than Andrey? I have no knowledge of the Russian language and how ambiguous such a translation may be, but until now I have only come across Andrei as Kolmogorov's first name. I would like to suggest moving this article and making a redirect from the current page.

Thijs Elenbaas

Andrey is better

// Native russian speaker :)

There are several standard methods of transliteration. The American Mathematical Society now prefers the version Andrei or in TeX Andre\u\i. 85.118.224.242 14:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm Russian, my name is Андрей and I prefer my name to be transliterated as Andrei :) From Wikipedia's transliteration rules follows that we should prefer "Andrey", but there is also stated, that conventional English name (if available) should be used instead of the transliteration. "Andrey" is also used by Encarta and Britannica. Due to this I doubt, whether if AMS prefer "Andrei" it's enough to name this variant conventional. Perhaps more sources should be provided here. And please, supply corresponding links, for example, to AMS search results, stats or something like that. Cmapm 23:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The 1990 obituary by Kendall used Andrei.

So do

• U. FRISCH; “From global scaling, à la Kolmogorov, to local multifractal scaling in fully developed turbulence”.
• BENOIT B. MANDELBROT; “Random Multifractals: Negative Dimensions and the Resulting Limitations of the Thermodynamic Formalism”.

...both in Proceedings: Mathematical and Physical Sciences; The Royal Society, London; 08 July 1991; 434 (1890, Turbulence and Stochastic Process: Kolmogorov's Ideas 50 Years On)

—DIV (128.250.204.118 09:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC))

Universally spelled "Andrei"

With very few exceptions. recommend to chage it; it's confusing to have a little used spelling. Boodlesthecat (talk) 20:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Kolmogorov or Kolmogoroff

Okay, I think this one has already been unanimously decided that Kolmogorov should be used. Nevertheless, a lot of old references used Kolmogoroff, and so therefore do a few new ones that cite old references.... Just thought it should be mentioned for completeness ;-) —DIV (128.250.204.118 09:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC))

There is much ambiguity about the spelling (in particular if langues with roman alphabet different from English are considered): Kolmogorov, Kolmogorow, Kolmogorof, Kolmogoroff. I think we really should have pages for all these which redirect the reader to the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.175.8.59 (talk) 09:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian

How come in the Russian article the accents are sometimes used, and sometimes not. Is there any rule, or just laziness, or doesn't it matter? —DIV (128.250.204.118 02:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC))

The rules are in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people). Basically, it comes down to how the person is best known in the English-speaking world. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you answering my question Will Beback?

I have read your reply and looked at the link but can't see how either is relevant!

I was asking about a Russian-language (linguistic) rule, not a WP-usage rule.

—DIV (128.250.204.118 09:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC))

Seems to have been answered by Markussep at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Cyrillic)#Accents.

— DIV (128.250.204.118 00:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC))

pronunciation question

On the pronunciation question - it is true that unstressed 'o' in Russian comes out more like 'a' (well, short British 'a', anyway).

Charles Matthews 20:47, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Usually, this is called akanie.--Imz 17:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

On homosexuality

I personally don't have an opinon and don't know if the allegations of homosexuality are true or not. Obviously, 194.154.84.35 believes they are untrue. Homosexuality in USSR was persecuted (AFAIK a few years in jail). If true, KGB must have known of it. Considering that neither one of them was persecuted, 194.154.84.35 might have a point. I can't find anything useful in google to confirm the allegations. User:Pyrop: can you actually produce some sort of evidence for your assertions? I am sure you can't produce eye witness accounts, so maybe instead of describing the issue as fact you can describe it as an allegation with references to the sources? Like, "such and such alleges that ...". See WP:NPOV. --Gene s 07:53, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This controversiary info removed by myself until it is proved. Friendship and living in one house does not always mean sex, right? Cmapm 13:27, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think it would probably be best if we only stated that the two lived together and had a long friendship, (which is easily comfirmable), until i or someone else can dig up a solid source on it. -℘yrop (talk) 00:09, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

I find it sick and disgucting to go into person's sexual life without even having a decent article first. It is encyclopedia, not yellow press, for Christ sake. Mikkalai 01:38, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

First, agreed with Mikkalai and Gene s. Second, I strongly believe, that the point Pyrop want to prove in this section is false and he or somebody else will just waste time trying to prove it (it even seems stupid for me), because:

• Kolmogorov had a girlfriend since school times and married to her in 1942, they lived together since then until 1987, when Kolmogorov died. [1]
• It's not Europe or USA today. In the Soviet Union at least until 1991 ("at least" because I simply don't know laws of Russia) this perversion (excuse me for my POV) was a crime against personality, the criminal was sentenced for 5 years (I suppose that before 1920-1950 this time was much longer). I suppose that these people where nearly criminals even in Europe and USA.

Well even though the statement on linking perversion and gays is either a perversion or stupidity in itself, it will be too fast to put this material (regarding Kolmogorov) on the concerned page.

PS : Even as per Independent Psychiatric Association of Russia homosexuality is not a perversion. Unless it is to be concluded that this Russian body has no credibility (which is certainly not the case), I guess the stupidity lies in this calling of gay a perversion.

• Actually, the word in the section header and it's meaning was not known to the majority of people even in big cities of the USSR (may be only to lawyers) during 1922-1991 and particularly during 1920-1950. For example, I myself first knew this word from the media in mid 90-ies. I think in Europe and USA the situation was not much worse.
  • You were a "good boy/girl", then. The word was pretty well-known, especially in its derogatory form, "gomosek". Not to say about a plenty of synonyms, like "pidor", "petuh", etc. Mikkalai 03:12, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• But even if somebody should accidentally find this word somewhere, in any Russian dictionary of that time this word was defined as sexual perversion. And the word love when it was used in "sexual context", meant exclusively relations between male and female.
• The purpose of friendship and living together for scientists in the USSR (as I've known reading many biographies) was "to do the same scientific work, do the research in the same area together". May be for scientists in Europe and USA of that time or nowadays it has mostly other meaning? I can't say.

• Kolmogorov was the man from the Russian province, in the province and villages of Russia upbringing of people was always much more traditional than in big cities. So, in Kolmogorov's address the word in the header sounds even more stupid than to the one of other scientists.

Nothing personal, but Pyrop, please, next time before including such famous scientists in similar lists and categories (which for some people like myself sounds like "black lists"), base your decision not only on "yellow press"-sources and at least read his biography. Cmapm 02:03, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well being gay like Alan Turing is certainly better than being an ignorant fool who holds the pseudo-scientific belief that being gay is a sexual perversion

If there is a desige to continue this general discussion, I suggest you start a (new) article Sex in Soviet Union. As one might remember, during an US-SU "TV-bridge", popular during "perestroika" times, the whole world learned that "there is no sex in Soviet Union". :-)

I personally think there was just misunderstanding, the synonims of "sex": "pol", "polovoj" were wide-spread in SU. I agree that some of my arguments are my personal POV, I didn't search for any statistical data, because it's not the article "Sex in Soviet Union" :-) so it isn't worth of serious research. Cmapm 14:06, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Indeed it was a misundng, but not what you think. In SU "seks" was a taboo word. When this poor lady called a huge uproar of laughter in the audience by saying that "there is no sex in soviet union" for the whole world to hear, she meant to say that Soviet people were good and decent people of high morality, no one cheated their spouses, that there was no this kind of "bourgeois decay" called by this filthy word "seks". Mikkalai 00:56, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As for the particular case, there is nothing to talk further: either there is evidence, or not. Rumors are inacceptable. Mikkalai 03:12, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Kolmogorov and Alexandrov also appear on Wikipedia's List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people. Should they be removed from it or moved from "Persons of confirmed gay orientation" section to "Persons of disputed gay orientation"? Andris 23:49, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

Remove. "Disputed" means rumors. There is no place in encyclopedia for rumors, unless a person was of importance for gays in some respect. Also, they were added there by user pyrop, who failed to defend his case here, hence no grounds to list in a list. You cannot put something in a list without having this in the directly related article. Mikkalai 00:46, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Kolmogorov is quoted as saying about Alexandrov "for me these 53 years of close and indissoluble friendship were the reason why all my life was on the whole full of happiness, and the basis of that happiness was the unceasing thoughtfulness on the part of Aleksandrov." which seems to hint at a little more than just 'ordinary' friendship between colleagues. Also Kolmogorov can be found at [2] a site which maintains a list of (quote) "Famous gay or bisexual Russians or Russians who slept with people of the same sex or had strong romantic attachments". Personally I think the topic of Kolmogorov's relationship with Alexandrov is very interesting and it should at least be mentioned in the Wiki entry that they are considered a gay couple by a lot of people. --62.178.132.203 23:00, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

These "hints" are bullshit. There are plenty of people all over the world of long lasting and fulfilling friendship without sex; even between men and women. Unless there is a direct evidence, this will not go into the article. Mikkalai 19:50, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense! I am a student at the Mechanics and Mathematics of MSU, is familiar with the students Kolmogorov and Aleksandrov, and I can say for sure - they were friends who love their wives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.192.251.45 (talk) 20:44, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Are there two mathematicians named Andrei Nikolaevich Kolmogorov?

The Kolmogorov referenced in van Heijenoort published his paper in 1925, which means that that Andrei K. would have been 22 when the paper was published, let alone submitted (given he was born in 1903). Considering the profound complexity of the paper around the use of the law of excluded middle its hard to believe they came from the same man. However van Heijenoort noted that "professor Kolmogorov signified his acceptance" when the paper was published in van Heijenoort. Perhaps they are father and son? Can someone please confirm? Thanks, I need this for a bio re Brouwer. wvbaileyWvbailey 19:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• There was only one mathematician with this name. Publishing a serious paper while studying in university is normal for prominent mathematician. His first math papers were published in 1923 Mir76 14:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. He must have been an amazing man. wvbaileyWvbailey 16:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

On Homosexuality

I am a mathematician working at the ETH in Zürich. Although young myself, I have been blessed with many old Mathematicians friends (the oldest of whom is 103). The Math scene prior to the 60s was much tighter despite the then lacks of fast communication means. Mathematicians would befriend each other at conferences while on long trips around the world. The community was far much tighter these days than now. They all personally knew each other. Anyway. All of my old friends (i.e. friends who are old) concur about the life-long romance which Kolmogorov and Alexandrov engaged into. Sure they were married with kids. Sure it was criminal to be gay in that day and age. If discovered, they would have been stripped of their professorships and confined into a life of madness in some rehabilitation asylum. This is why their sweet loving romance remained so secretive. It has become a "non-dit" in the community. We know about it, but just don't talk about it. We leave to the memories of these so brilliant minds, so gentle man, so fantastic colleagues, the duty of caring for their love, in a world beyond our comprehension. They are our "Brokeback Mathematics". Our closed knit family accepts anyone whose contribution to mathematics is significant.

So... my opinion now. Should their romance be mentioned ? At least their friendship. Such long lasting infallible friendships are becoming so scarce that their is definitely worth being mentioned. But I wouldn't go into any details that would reveal too much of their private life. To me, they are like Akilles and Hector.

I am myself going through a similar situation. I am a gay mathematician. Unmarried, but not unloved. My partner is also a gay mathematician. We both work in prominent places, so we don't advertise for our "condition". We don't see each other too much (he's in the US, I'm in Europe). We very much cherish our private life especially on the professional scene. We're not obvious, but most people know about us. Still, I would not like for myself and my partner that details on our private life be revealed.

This is why I wouldn't like Kolmogorov and Alexandrov to become the poster children for homosexuality in Mathematics either. So, let's just keep it simple and tactfully discreet by hinting only to their lifelong romantic friendship.

Hi, I am a gay french youth and I am very interested in all is in touch with homosexuality. Wikipedia is obviously full of homophobic philistines. If you can read this, I would really like to speak to you. My email is banquepierre@live.fr See you I hope

Inconsistent with another article

The "Lenin prize" article does not cite Kolmogorov! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockslave (talk • contribs) 00:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Daniell--Kolmogorov theorem

Recently read a reference to the "famous" Daniell--Kolmogorov theory settling questions on the existence of stochastic processes with prescribed joint distributions (Williams, Probability with Martingales). However, no mention is supplied here. Can an expert please add?

Alternative spelling, confusion with Kolmogoroff

Necessary to cite or redirect A. Kolmogoroff to this article?

http://www.zentralblatt-math.org/zmath/en/authors/?q=kolmogorov,+a*.

Spellings: Kolmogoroff, A.; Kolmogoroff, A.N.; Kolmogoroff, A. N.; Kolmogoroff, Andre; Kolmogorov, Andrey N.; Kolmogorov, Andrej N.; Kolmogorov, A. N.; Kolmogoroff, Andrej; Kolmogoroff, A.A.

The gay thirties

The following material has recently been deleted from the page: "In the 1930s, Kolmogorov participated in an ideological harrassment campaign against his former teacher Nikolai Luzin. Kolmogorov was involved in a homosexual relationship with Alexandrov at the time," due to duplication of material. Not all of it is currently available in the current version. Tkuvho (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The source is Graham, Loren R.; Kantor, Jean-Michel (2009). Naming infinity: a true story of religious mysticism and mathematical creativity. Harvard University Press. p. 185. ISBN 9780674032934. "The police soon learned of Kolmogorov and Alexandrov's homosexual bond, and they used that knowledge to obtain the behavior that they wished. When the police asked Kolmogorov and Alexandrov to join in attacking Luzin, they did so." This is a widely acclaimed book by recognized scholars. I have not checked yet but I assume we have a page for at least one of them, or should at any rate. Tkuvho (talk) 13:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The source mentioned seems to be reliable; however, it would be more credible if this sort of personal matter is supported by more than one independent source. Salih (talk) 15:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The other source is ">Lorentz, G.G. (2001). "Who Discovered Analytic Sets?". The Mathematical Intelligencer. 23 (4): 31. doi:10.1007/BF03024600. In Leningrad, many mathematicians believed that Aleksandrov was homosexual... {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) Tkuvho (talk) 18:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

set theory

Somehow "set theory" did not make it to the list of things he is "known for". Should this be added? Tkuvho (talk) 21:35, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

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Most certainly K was homosexual

A number of reliable sources say as much; I came across an extensive discussion in Masha Gessen's _Perfect Rigor_, which takes K's homosexuality as a given, and quotes numerous people talking about his relationship with Alexandrov. e.g.,

“The strange story of the specialized math schools goes back to Andrei Kolmogorov. Having been so essential to the war effort during World War II, Kolmogorov alone among the top Soviet mathematicians avoided being drafted into the postwar military effort. His students always wondered why—and the only likely explanation seems to be Kolmogorov's homosexuality. His lifelong partner, with whom he shared a home starting in 1929, was the topologist Pavel Alexandrov. Five years after the couple started living together, the Soviet Union criminalized male homosexual ity, but Kolmogorov and Alexandrov, who exercised minimal discretion—they called each other "friends" but made no secret of the life-shaping nature of their relationship—apparently had no trouble with the law. The academic world accepted them as a pair, if not a couple: they generally requested academic appointments together, booked their accommodations together at Academy of Sciences resorts, and made donations to military relief efforts together.”

and

“Kolmogorov himself referred to his students affectionately as "my boys," reporting to Alexandrov, in a letter from a trip taken with his students in 1965, "In just three hours at an elevation of 2400 meters all my boys got so badly sunburned (parading around in their swimming trunks or without them) that they could barely sleep for two nights following." The casual happy homoeroticism of Kolmogorov's view of his students seemed to come from an entirely different time and place. Before the Iron Curtain sealed off the Soviet Union from the rest of the world, Kolmogorov and Alexandrov had done some traveling. Alexandrov, who was seven years older, had traveled extensively before the two met, but the pair spent the 1930–1931 academic year abroad, some of it together. They started out in Berlin, where all culture, and gay culture in particular, was flourishing. They imported all they could: books, music, ideas. "Interesting that this idea of a truly beloved friend seems to be purely Aryan: The Greeks and the Germans seem always to have had it," Alexandrov wrote to Kolmogorov in 1931, a few years before the reference to Aryans would have had a different connotation. "The theory[…]”

It seems from reading below that there are at least two other articles independently discussing this core feature of K's life. Whether he's be "classified" as gay under 21st Century terms, it's clear that the relationship with Alexandrov was unusually intimate, close, and erotic. 173.71.191.135 (talk) 00:08, 8 June 2022 (UTC)