Talk:Barack Obama

	This is not a forum for general discussion of Barack Obama. Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to the suggestions on how to improve the content of this article.	Template:Blp/BLPtext
This page is about an active politician who is running for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism.

Andyvphil’s proposed changes

Following are Andyvphil’s proposed changes:

Addition to "Senate Career"

According to National Journal, a weekly magazine geared toward "Washington Insiders", in its 27th annual vote ratings, Senator Obama was the most liberal senator in 2007. The candidate shifted further to the left during 2007 prior to the Presidential primaries, after ranking as the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two years in the Senate. Hillary Clinton ranked as the 16th most liberal Senator in 2007, voting differently than Obama on only 10 of the 297 votes considered in calculating the rankings.

On the other hand, the rankings by the Americans for Democratic Action seem to show an opposite trend, with a 100% rating in 2005 declining to 95% in 2006 and 75% in 2007. This is misleading, as the 2007 decline was due entirely to missed votes. In the sixty votes used by the ADA to measure a legislator's political liberalism during Obama's career in the Senate he has voted for the non-"liberal" result only once.

Jeremiah Wright

(He proposes titling the following section "Obama, his church, his pastor, and politics")

Obama joined Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988, three years after first coming to Chicago to take a job organizing the political activity of black churches in the city.A megachurch with 10,000 members, Trinity is the largest congregation in the United Church of Christ. The church is more Afrocentric and politically active than most black congregations and Obama began distancing himself from the political views of its dominant figure, recently retired 36-year pastor Jeremiah Wright, when he called Wright the night before the February 10, 2007 announcement of his Presidental candidacy to withdraw his request that Wright deliver an invocation at the event. Wright did however, attend the announcement, prayed with Mr. Obama beforehand, and joined the Obama campaign's African American Religious Leadership Committee.

Obama joined Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988, three years after first coming to Chicago to take a job organizing the political activity of black churches in the city. A megachurch with 10,000 members, Trinity is the largest congregation in the United Church of Christ. The church is more Afrocentric and politically active than most black congregations and Obama began distancing himself from the political views of its dominant figure, recently retired 36-year pastor Jeremiah Wright, when he called Wright the night before the February 10, 2007 announcement of his Presidental candidacy to withdraw his request that Wright deliver an invocation at the event. Wright did however, attend the announcement, prayed with Mr. Obama beforehand, and joined the Obama campaign's African American Religious Leadership Committee.

After Wright's retirement (his last sermon was February 10, 2008) copies of his sermons were offered for sale. News organizations like ABC News bought them and searched them for controversial material. ABC News found "repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans." In addition to controversial comments after 9/11 that had been previously publicized ("We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is brought right back in our own front yards.") the site also quoted Wright as saying "No, no, no, not God bless America — God damn America!"

In March 2008 Obama went further then he had before, "vehemently disagree[ing with] and strongly condemn[ing]... inflammatory and appalling remarks Wright made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents." Obama said the remarks had come to his attention at the beginning of his presidential campaign but that because Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of Obama's strong links to the Trinity faith community, he had not thought it "appropriate" to leave the church. The campaign announced at that point that "Rev. Wright is no longer serving on the African American Religious Leadership Committee."

Repeat of Talk Comment in Previously Established 'Wright' Section:

HELLO ALL - I have spent several weeks away from this article, only revisiting to see how the Jeremiah Wright issue was being covered (as I have some historical knowledge of Rev. Wright). I must say that I was expecting a lively debate in the discussion boards, but I was not expecting any references in the article itself (given what I perceived to be an imbalance of passionate Obama supporters that seemed to have heavy editorial influence over the article). I am at least pleased to see the inclusion of certain facts in the article. I think it at least discusses enough to suggest to a reader that there is much below the surface on the Wright issue that requires further research. The reader can then dive deeper. I do, however, disagree with Bellwether...who, if left alone, would likely remove all references in the article other than Obama's claim to Christianity through his membership in that congregation. Rhetorical question: Does anyone on this board go to church on a weekly basis? Those of us that do attend church on a regular basis know how difficult it would become to receive a weekly sermon for 14 years that espouses views that are extremely contrary to one's own views. (Isn't that the time frame that was quoted by Obama as his membership in that church?) As one of the minority owners of a multimedia technology firm that owns diverse Internet TV sites, including StreamingFaith.com which has for years broadcasted the sermons of Rev. Wright, I can tell you that his sermons go way beyond the controversial clips they are showing on mainstream TV today. Networks on the right are going a little further by showing clips of Wright's claim that our government "invented AIDS to infect black people", or his claim that the government is "importing drugs to feed to black people" as part of its "plan to jail black people"...but the unedited sermons of Rev. Wright that have been broadcast over the years can only be described as the preaching of Hate and separatism. Even Obama must believe this to be true as he has distanced himself increasingly as the truth about Rev. Wright has become more widely known. Just to ask the obvious question: At what point during the last 14 years should we have expected a hopeful leader of our nation, one who preaches a message of national unity, to have stood up and walked out of Rev. Wright's separatist church? The big question, as the electorate evaluates this candidate, is "Why did it take so long?" ...As this relates to Wiki, remember, this is an article about a candidate for our highest office. Obama's decade long decision to associate with Rev. Wright cannot be erased with a few quick words of denouncement...and this article on Wiki that purports to be biographical in nature must include the ties to Rev. Wright to maintain its accuracy and completeness. Unlike the dentist analogy, Obama has over the years told us how important Rev. Wright has been to him...Obama made this bed by not walking away on principle earlier. Jtextor (talk) 15:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Not 14 years. Obama came to Chicago to organize black churches in 1985 and chose to sign up with Wright in 1988. I don't think any other church had as much to offer him, career-wise. And Wright didn't step down until last month. 23 years. Andyvphil (talk) 23:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

i had to rv some of andy's txt there because of a BLP violation.

"Talk pages are used to make decisions about article contents. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material not related or useful to making article content choices should be deleted, and even oversighted if especially problematic (telephone number, libel, etc). New material should generally be discussed in order to arrive at a consensus concerning relevance, availability of sources, and reliability of sources."

Jtextor you are getting close to that as well. Obviously everyone gets some leeway- but andyvphil has a long history of posting things unacceptable on the actual page, on the talk page instead. and totally without "talk" concerning the article. So anyways andy- I added the original wright text during the thirty-seconds it was totally unprotected.(believe it or not!) So obviously if you add something neutral, maybe (maybe) it would get consensus. If you continue to edit in your usual manner however, I will have no choice but to support all the other editors who rv just about everything you write. If for once, you could AGF towards us, we might AGF back towards you (even though that looks gross in writing). Jtextor- I think posting your text and sources, would be a much better idea than pushing the libel boundaries on the talk page with speculative crap. learn your lesson from andy's block history before its too late. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 02:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the sentence to my post that 72.etc deleted ("I don't think any other church had as much to offer him, career-wise.") It is not by the wildest stretch of any reasonable person's imagination a BLP violation. And, contrary to what 72.etc would have you believe, I have never been blocked because some admin objected to the content of anything I've ever written on Wikipedia. Andyvphil (talk) 06:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

72etc has several times redacted my comment about how Obama joining Trinity can be seen as a sensiuble career choice rather than the matter of religious belief Obama has presented it as, most recently in the "More Perfect Union" speech where he quotes himself from "Audacity of Hope" on this subject. I most recently undid this here, and asked for admin help in preventing this vandalism of my words here. I will further note that my observation has now appeared in at least one RS, as follows:

Perhaps [Obama] merely used the Trinity United Church of Christ as a political stepping-stone. African-American political life is centered around churches, and his election to the Illinois State Senate with the support of Chicago's black political machine required church membership. Trinity United happens to be Chicago's largest and most politically active black church.

[4] BLP does not prohibit us from sceptically examining Obama's claims. Indeed NPOV requires us to give the skeptical POV due weight. Andyvphil (talk) 08:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

How could that be classified as a reliable source? If the sentence begins with "perhaps" it means that the author is merely speculating, rather than reporting the facts. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Threaded discussion of Andyvphil's proposed additions

both are very well written, and both should be included (especially Wright). In regards to the National Journal, I think that is appropriate since there is already a few op-ed quotes in Obama's article, one saying something about him being the most likely man to change the world. With such a glowing op-ed quote already in the article, the national review quote adds appropriate balance for NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.9.46 (talk) 16:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

• The quality of the writing isn't this issue. The appropriateness of the content presented for the main Barack Obama article (as opposed to the campaign article or the Wright/Trinity articles) is what I would like to see discussed. Bellwether ^B_C 22:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that both sections are well written; however, both sections are completely inappropriate. The "most liberal" section rightly reports the details, but presents them in such a way as to present a point of view. Due to the candidate seeking the nomination, any ranking based on 2007 data is likely to be extremely suspect because of a lack of available data for the judging criteria. The "Jeramiah Wright" section has no place in this article whatsoever. Parts of it would be fine in the articles for Jeremiah Wright, Trinity United Church of Christ, and perhaps Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008; however, almost none of it would be appropriate here. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

• This pretty succinctly summarizes my views as well. Bellwether ^B_C 22:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

also 4 paragraphs is def. undue weight. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 23:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

But zero paragraphs is undue weightlessness. Let's see your alternative. Bellwether's "Our 'alternative' is that it stays out" isn't going to cut it. Btw, both the National Journal and ADA numbers are for three years, not just 2007, and if you think they are presented "in such a way as to present a point of view" Wikipedia policy is explicit as to what you should do: "balance it with your side of the story."

Wright's political views were the reason Obama joined his church, and his advice as a member of Obama's African American Religious Leadership Committee remained welcome for more than a year after Obama claims he became aware of how "inflammatory and appalling" those views were (after those qualities had somehow gone undetected for 22 years). Asserting without explanation that those views should be stashed behind a blue link is absurd. Andyvphil (talk) 04:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• I've removed the disputed content one last time. If you all want to let him shove it in the article whole cloth, without discussion and revision, then I won't remove it again. I'd suggest you take a look at his talkpage, though, as he has a long history of tendentious editing, and several blocks to show for it. This is just more of the same, non-collegial pattern. Search that page for "consensus" and similar words. I'm telling you, it's interesting reading. Bellwether ^B_C 10:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

And I've removed it again. Andyvphil must stop his blatant attempts to bend this article toward his biased point of view. He claims "consensus" for his edits, when the only support he has are from (a) other biased editors and (b) unregistered "newbies" who decided to make attacking this article their first Wikipedia experiences. No consensus among the longstanding editors exists to include this inappropriate and biased material. These subjects should be one-line mentions at best, without all the duplication and bias. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You badly need to read the policy WP:OWN. Barack Obama has become the likely Democrat candidate for the Presidency of the United States and this article is now the most viewed article on Wikipedia by a factor of more than two.[5] The days when this article was the private project of a happy band of Obama fans who could rely on the FA reviewers not knowing enough about the subject to know what what was being omitted are over. Andyvphil (talk) 00:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The POV is obvious to any third-grader. Wikipedia is a community, not a system that you could flip around. I would suggest User:Andyvphil to cease these childish games - seriously, it wastes everybody's time. I do agree with several points of Andyvphil, and that the material deserves more attention in the article than it is receiving. However, the edit Andyvphil made contains little more than presumptions and speculation. It's nothing close to a featured article standard. Herunar (talk) 15:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

As I keep saying, if you don't like it, change it. Just deleting the subject immediately fails featured article criteria [WP:FACR] 1(b). Andyvphil (talk) 00:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I cannot believe this page is still subject to constant obstructionist fan-editing! I'll rejoin the effort to bring balance and NPOV to this article when I return from vacation.--166.199.165.120 (talk) 03:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC) (Davidp)

Andyvphil wrote: As I keep saying, if you don't like it, change it. I didn't, so I did. --HailFire (talk) 17:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Socialist?

It bothered me that Obama's socialist views were not even hinted at in this article. It seems like the editors are trying to avoid negative information about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.84.60 (talk) 16:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me like you need to research some things before you bring it up. Grsz 11 16:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I would not call Obama's views "socialist." Liberal and socialist are not the same thing. And second, I also would not agree with your characterization of "socialist" as "negative." Kathy (talk) 04:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

His "socialist" views are not mentioned here because they do not exist. Yahel Guhan 04:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Cocaine

Cocaine Long before he ever ran for political office, Obama wrote a book about, well, himself, and his amazing his journey from messed up kid to, um, himself. It was quite an epic, considering he was 34 at the time. In that book, called "Dreams From My Father", he writes that he used marijuana and cocaine ("maybe a little blow".) Oddly enough, he writes that he didn't try heroin because -- wait for it -- he didn't like the pusher who was selling it. (Weren't there any other reasons?) In a later interview, he added "Teenage boys are frequently confused."

Oh no, the horror, the horror, we should never let anyone inside political office who has partaken in cocaine....

Get a grip guy. If we banned anyone who had taken drugs, oh hey, we wouldn't have anyone inside the current executive administration, including the current president who is an admitted clean and sober fellow having given up on cocaine and alchohol years ago. Rather than shocked at any of this, we should be proud of him and of Obama both for being able to brake free from the vicious cycle that lifestyle is.

You don't reward or take pride in people for NOT doing drugs and doing what they are supposed to do.

Funny, I use cocaine and run one of the largest and most respected companies on the eastern seaboard. The only reason coke is a big deal is because it is not taxable. I'm also fairly conservative.

Is there a reason no one signed any of these comments? 199.125.109.100 (talk) 21:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Categorization and ranking of Obama's politics

Do voting record-based categorizations and rankings from partisan or nonpartisan sources help improve readers' understanding of Barack Obama's Senate career or his politics? An example of the disputed text is linked here.

Pointers to earlier discussion

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 13#Liberal
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 13#Requested full protection
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 13#Andyvphil and his attempts to make large, unilateral changes to the article without discussion
• Talk:Barack Obama#Andyvphil’s proposed changes

Summary statements by editors who are parties to this dispute

• One nonpartisan source lists Barack Obama as a "Rank and File Democrat".[6][7] How is this notable to our purpose here? Readers' understanding of Obama's career or his politics will not be supported by a series of political rankings provided from either partisan or nonpartisan sources. Statistical analysis of voting records is easily manipulated and such surveys almost always reflect some kind of partisan POV. Also, categorizations and rankings derived from such analysis risk conveying a false impression of neutrality. Stringing together a series of such surveys that reach different conclusions does not in any way assist readers' understanding of the underlying complex decisionmaking and negotiating processes that go into determining votes on proposed legislation. "Findings" of these surveys should not be included in Obama's lead biography article, and their usefulness in other political articles is also doubtful. Let readers decide for themselves where a politician fits according to their own criteria and analysis of the issues. --HailFire (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• Barack Obama dismisses such political labels as “old politics”,[8] but you don't get to impose his obfuscatory POV here. RS characterize, and report characterizations of, him as "progressive", "liberal" or even, apparently, "rank and file". Our job is to reflect the RS, not hide his ADA rating from readers lest they be too dumb to reach their own conclusions about what it means, no matter how carefully we explain it to them,[9] or maybe smart enough to decide they know that what it means is that they don't want to vote for Obama. Andyvphil (talk) 11:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Commentary by editors who have not previously been involved in this dispute

• I'm not personally a big believer in the political spectrum, but many readers and commentators are, so I think it's useful to include a variety of measures of a political figure's placement on such spectrums. It can also be useful to include a variety of interest group assessments ("Jane Smith has a lifetime 85% rating from Americans for Eating Radishes", that sort of thing). Again, not perfect but usually tells you something. It's important to include a variety of these measures and metrics, not just one, and to use lifetime averages, or give the results for several years, as any particular year can easily be an outlier. For the three senators currently running, 2007 is especially problematic for such ratings, since they all missed a lot of votes due to campaigning and thus the sample size is even smaller than usual. Examples of the approach that I think is valid and useful are in Hillary Rodham Clinton#Political positions and Political positions of John McCain#Organizational ratings. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• Editors could show their sincerity by visiting some articles about conservative politicians and removing the word "conservative" there. ;-) Steve Dufour (talk) 19:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

  conservatives are generally proud of that label however- there are been no effort to find a "new" euphamism like there has been for liberal/progressive. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 19:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

  How or whether Obama self-identifies on a party or spectrum basis is not really what was being asked here. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• Surveys are, to a large extent, in this case very subjective. Often they have a political agenda behind their creation. They are to a large extent an attempt to group him in a category. That said, I think the label should be included given as little weight in the article as possible. The original text was way too long, and should be summarized as to be given no more than two or three small sentences covering the whole idea, maybe something like this:

According to the National Journal Senator Obama was labeled the most liberal senator in 2007. According to the Americans for Democratic Action In the sixty votes used by the ADA to measure a legislator's political liberalism during Obama's career in the Senate he has voted for the non-"liberal" result only once.

Yahel Guhan 04:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

New discussion on political categorization

Sharing this blog entry to help illustrate why some of the editors here (myself included) consider votes-based "political spectrum" categorizations (or characterizations), non-notable at best, or at worst, unnecessarily misleading. Comments welcome. --HailFire (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

There's considerably more to MSNBC's analysis of Obama's voting record than your blog suggests. And, of course, the existance of an article on the subject in a RS demonstrates, by definition, the opposite of "non-notability". You don't get to censor the POV, found in multiple RS, that Obama's voting record can be meaningfully analyzed to determine where he stands on the political spectrum merely because you think such analysis is misleading. We are supposed to reflect RS, not overrule them. Andyvphil (talk) 11:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

NPOV The Neutrality of this Article is Challenged

User:Scjessey admits that only favorable information is allowed on this page.

On his and my talk page, User:scjessey explains that only favorable information belongs on the Barack Obama page. Information about Obama's voting record, information about Obama's yearlong denial of his knowledge of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's sermons does not have "any place in the BLP. That should be on the campaign page, if anywhere." User:Scjessey talk

This of course is a clear admission that the Barrack Obama page violates the NPOV policy. Jwvoiland (talk) 15:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)jwvoiland

This article has been flagged for violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Jwvoiland (talk) 16:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Please paste here where Scjessey made the statements you claim he made. I see you accusing him of such but I'm missing the part where he states that no negative information may be added. Also, I think you are using the tag as a weapon because you are having a disagreement with other editors. Therefore, it should be removed. →Wordbuilder (talk) 16:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree that Jwvoiland is using the neutrality tag as a weapon in a content dispute, a clear no-no among experienced editors. I presume this is because he/she is a new user with few edits. Let's not bite. --HailFire (talk) 16:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to remind everyone to comply with WP:3RR, to not edit war, and to use the dispute resolution process. If you find your additions being reverted by multiple users, chances are, your changes are not going to get in the article and you should really not revert it back into the article, but rather come to the talk page and try to work with the other editors to find a consensus. If you are still unable to get your content added to the article, proceed up the chain of dispute resolution. Conversely, for the editors that are reverting additions, please remember that consensus can change and don't automatically kill a discussion by saying, "We've already reached consensus on this!" Rather, point them to the consensus agreement and ask if they are willing to follow it. If they are not willing to comply and there isn't much interest on the page to rediscuss their changes, suggest they create an RFC. If they fail to comply by the consensus while they are trying to change the consensus, you should start down the disruptive editing path to get community and administrator support. This fairly constant fighting over content is unproductive and detrimental to the article. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed the tag for a second time, as there is no justification for it being there. Controversies regarding the presidential campaign are discussed in the article for the presidential campaign. Blocks will be issued for continued disruptive behavior. Grsz 11 17:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't put the tag back on. It's a featured article. It's highly viewed. Tagging is disruptive. Will ^(talk) 17:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I just came back from being out and found this little discussion. It seems pretty clear that I didn't say anything about only allowing favorable information on this article from my editing history. Anyway, it looks like someone else has taken care of this problem already. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, until tomorrow at least, if the user comes back and continues along the same tact, just pop over to AN/I and see if anyone is willing to implement some preventative measures again. The threshold is usually lower than four reverts if they are coming off a block for edit-warring. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The flag isn't necessary. Anyone who reads it, and compares it to the articles about George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton and John McCain, can easily see tha tit's an NPOV violation. Without criticism, it's a hagiography. Banishing controversial material to other articles that no one will ever read is a whitewash. Let's be neutral about the subject. Kossack4Truth (talk) 19:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I completely disagree. The quality of an article has nothing to do with how it compares to other articles, and the key criticisms of Obama (Rezko, Wright) have been adequately covered. Besides, the three individuals you are comparing Obama too are more worthy of criticism by a considerable margin. Have you considered that the reason the article contains little criticism is because there is little to criticize about Obama? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you considered that the reason the article contains little criticism is because editors are trying to protect Obama? There is abundant criticism of Obama available from several notable sources. Specifically, this Jeremiah Wright problem has been a major gaffe for Obama, because he first denied having heard Wright say anything inflammatory. Then, when confronted with the evidence, he admitted it just a few days later. It is reasonable to include a representative sample of this criticism. To make room for it in an article this long (recommended length of Wikipedia articles is 32 KB plus photos, see WP:SIZE), we should cut back on some of the fawning praise that we see so very much of in this article. Kossack4Truth (talk) 22:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I have considered that possibility, but I have discarded it. I am a neutral editor of this article - I am not a US Citizen and I cannot vote in any elections. My interest in this article is based on its popularity, and the desire to make sure that such an important article maintains the highest possible standard. This "abundant criticism" you speak of that comes from "notable sources" - well I can think of many notable sources that are also unreliable and/or partisan sources. The "major gaffe for Obama" is your personal opinion, inflated by partisan views from partisan sources. Compare this minor case of misspeaking with the McCain's recent confusion over religious factions in the Middle East, for example. Seriously - compared to McCain, Bush and perhaps the Clintons, Obama (if you'll forgive the irony of this expression) is whiter than white! -- Scjessey (talk) 00:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Your neutral opnion is that Obama is a prince. No need to hold an election, just do the right thing and coronate him. Hey!... wasn't that the Saturday Night Live sketch last night? But it's too pathetic to be funny when the person writing the material doesn't realize it's a howler. Or would be, if I were a better person. Andyvphil (talk) 12:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The tag reads "The neutrality of this article is disputed." Hard to disagree, with several having said so in this section. "Please see the discussion on the talk page." That's here. "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." It isn't. Don't. Andyvphil (talk) 12:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

If there is a true "consensus" as to this page's neutrality, why do several editors keep undoing information that sees Senator Obama in a not so favorable light? A number of editors have included information that a number of others continue to undo, claiming "consensus" against it. The NPOV of this article is clearly challenged. It is not consistent with the NPOV mandate to rule that material about particular controversies must be moved off of this article and into a separate page. Muls1103 (talk) 15:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)muls1103

This isn't Wright's article! That's the consensus, not to put such a great detail of Wright information here when he has his own page to add it to. Clearly you aren't the new user you seem to be. Grsz 11 15:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

::What is the personal insult "Clearly you aren't the new user you seem to be" supposed to mean ? The editors of this page continue to show their hostility to NPOV in favor of Obama-spin. (had been logged out, signing now Muls1103 (talk) 15:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)muls1103)12.145.168.6 (talk) 15:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)muls1103

User:Muls1103 has been blocked (along with User:Letveritas as an abusive sockpuppet of User:Jwvoiland. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with portraying Obama in a "favorable light". It is entirely about undue weight. The existing sentences covering these matters neatly summarize what occurred, and include links to related articles that cover the "controversy" in exhaustive detail. Since this is a biography about Barack Obama, the article is primarily about the person. The additions proposed are, instead, detailed (and biased) accounts of a specific week of Obama's nomination campaign. Certain editors, such as Andyvphil, refuse to accept the prevailing consensus (and downright common sense) that adding such detail, regardless of its accuracy, is ascribing far too much weight to a single event of Obama's life. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This article does seem fairly pro-Obama to me. Articles about other politicians don't avoid controversies. Why should this one? An article's credibility is damaged when it appears to be biased in either direction. Obama is clearly dealing with some criticism. Of course some of it is partisan. But most controversies are partisan. That has not prevented them being included in other articles about politicians. So, why should it here? About the above labeling of the Wright controversy being about "a week" of Obama's life. That is really not very accurate. The Wright controversy is a about a man who has been influential to Obama for nearly half his life, and most of his adult life. This is not inconsequential. The way it is currently portrayed in the article does feel somewhat cleansed and incomplete. ArtsMusicFilm (talk) 17:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Instead of worrying about our alleged POV violations, you should worry about familiarizing yourself with certain guidelines that Scjessey mentioned, as you are a new user. Grsz 11 16:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm accused of hostility, while the other side is using sockpuppets! Ha! Grsz 11 16:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone here contend - with an actual argument - that, despite the discussions littering this talk page and archived versions, that the neutrality of this article is somehow not in dispute? I have re-added the NPOV tag to reflect this. --Davidp (talk) 01:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No, the neutrality of the article is not currently in dispute. The only complainants appear to be the various sock puppets of Jwvoiland and the extraordinarily biased Andyvphil. Everyone else seems to be happy with the article in its current form. Please remove the NPOV tag unless you have identified a specific POV item (in which case, a sectional NPOV tag would be more appropriate anyway). -- Scjessey (talk) 02:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

rev wright issue has peaked

I am cross posting this to Obama, and Obama Campaign 08.

Now that Obama has polled ahead of clinton for two days in a row, after being behind her during the time of the wright issue, I would like to advocate that new progress on it has ceased, new first-tier reporting on it has ceased, and it is receding into historical background. So it is time for editors to stop adding material on it, until such time as something new happens in the issue. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 22:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Considering there is still edit-warring over how much content should be included on the matter in this article, I'm thinking a cessation of adding new material is a bit premature, not to mention it isn't exactly appropriate to make such a statement. Wikipedia is built on users adding new content to what are, by and large, topics that are more "historical" than "current", so making a statement that this needs to stop goes against what Wikipedia stands for. Obama pulling back ahead in the polls does not necessarily mean that the Wright issue is over for him, particularly since the respondents in the polls are more favorable to Obama (meaning they are Democrats) and are more likely to be forgiving of him than others. All in all, Obama may have pulled back ahead in the polls, but all that means is that he's pulled ahead in the polls, it doesn't dictate what can and can not be added to this (or the campaign) article. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

as I said, "until such time as something new happens in the issue."

If Obama was a Republican this issue would have received its own "controversies" subsection. Lesser issues have generated such sections that deal with Republicans. Blatant POV, systemic and specific. [10] --Heckler & Koch ^Talk 23:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

WP guidlines suggests merging controversy sections back into existing article text, because criticism sections are unencyclopedic; you are recommended to do that with the Lt. Gov. Michael S. Steele page, as we have done here, if the issue concerns you. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 23:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

prior to the peak was it ok to add as much material as possible on wright, barack's "uncle" that believes uncle sam made HIV to kill black people, told his congregation "god damn america", talked about the "us of kkk-a", hangs with louie farrakhan, etc here? CarlosRodriguez (talk) 03:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the page is hacked.

I'm pretty sure Barack's full name is not Sadam Hussein Obama, Jr. Maybe I'm wrong, but it certainly doesn't mention the Sadam part anywhere else online. I'm pretty sure theres a hacking going on. Peterrobot (talk) 00:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's not really likely. I was going to edit it back but it's semi protected, so if anyone could fix it, it would be appreciated.

That's more like it. Gratz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterrobot (talk • contribs) 01:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

source 180

10 people who can change the world, someone might want to check that out i didnt see any mention of obama. I dont think its the right source —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.135.203 (talk) 01:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's still there, 162, in the middle of the second paragraph. We have chosen only one out-and-out politician: Barack Obama... --HailFire (talk) 06:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The article needs a controversy section

This is ridiculous, and reeks of Obama supporters trying to hide any critical information. You don't have to agree that something is "controversial," but it was still a controversy focused by the media, and the public. This article is getting pretty laughable. This isn't going to last long. Before you know it, a million people are going swarm here, and start yet another edit war will ensue. Why not just make a section, and keep it in one place, before a bunch of people start fighting over where to place it, and whether or not they "agree" that something was a big enough story. This isn't suppose to be a fan page. Almost all other politicians, have had a criticism, or controversy portion of their article to get it all out there, and not to have people sliding stuff into the other portions, where others might miss it. This is the easiest solution to move past the "bias" assessment. Things like the "no hand over heart during the national anthem," "won't wear a flag pin," stories, are still notable, whether you find them ridiculous or not. My point is, it's better to agree on these controversies/criticisms now, give them a spot, and move on. This back and forth is getting tiresome. 07:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

um, no. That is not necessary. None of the candidates have a criticism section, and if they do, it is a sign that it needs to be cleaned up and possibly removed or merged into other parts of the article. Yahel Guhan 07:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yahel has it right. Or as Gzkn commented a while back, consider what would be said if we decided to have "praise" sections in these articles. Tvoz |talk

This article is typical example of the bias that pervades every corner of Wikipedia. Compare and contrast Jeremiah Wright's mention in this article (and glowing biography) to the entire section devoted to the Keating Five on John McCain's page. The nut-jobs who admin this site don't understand that they undermine their own credibility with this sort of "fairness". Admittedly, Wikipedia is a great resource if you need to know the name of Boba Fett's uncle or who wrote the 14th episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That said, Wikipedia is a political joke, philosophically broken and scientifically faulty. 72.196.233.224 (talk) 11:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Since that was only your second contribution to Wikipedia, I'd like to point out that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone. If you think something is wrong, improve it! Regarding your comparison of this article with the biography of John McCain, the problem may lie with the McCain article itself. When evaluating whether or not to include material in a biography, one must consider the significance of that material. If you think the "Keating 5" section is given too much weight within the scope of McCain's life, raise objections on that article's talk page. That is far more productive and useful than simply calling people "nut-jobs" and referring to Wikipedia as a "joke". -- Scjessey (talk) 15:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, there is very little point in trying to improve it. The people who made it this way are hovering over their favorite articles, because they made them that way and they want them to stay that way. Because there is an entire section on the Keating Five in John McCain's article, and an entire section on Whitewater in the Hillary Clinton article, there must, I repeat must,' be an entire section on the Wright controversy in this article. Kossack4Truth (talk) 11:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I know the other stuff essay is about deletion discussions but it also applies here. Just because things exist in other articles doesn't mean something must exist in this article. Jons63 (talk) 12:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

And as I have said before, what happens in other articles has no bearing on what happens in this one. At the moment, the "Wright controversy" is only significant to Obama's campaign at the moment. As such, it receives plenty of attention in the appropriate article. As far as his biography is concerned, however, it is (currently) of little significance, so it receives the necessary concise summary. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The things cited as 'controversies' here hardly hold any bearing on his potential policies or ability to govern the country. If he becomes embroiled in an actual scandal, sure, maybe adding it is worthwhile. But not putting his hand on his heart? That's not a controversy. It's an overblown issue which is only prolonged by adding fuel to the fire by mentioning it further. Belfunk (talk) 22:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This article was definitely written by Obama fans. 138.67.4.87 (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You say it and run away, but can you back up what you say and provide instances where this article favors Obama? Grsz 11 00:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Very simply put: any time there's criticism or controversy, it is banished to a satellite article that no one will ever read. There are numerous examples on this page and in the archives. The presidential campaign is the one major notable event in Obama's life. Four years ago, he was a mediocre state senator in Springfield, Illinois. Kossack4Truth (talk) 11:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not being "banished". Trying to cover the full scope of a candidate's campaign in their biographical article would make the article ridiculously long. By giving the campaign its own article, it enables Wikipedia to offer a more in-depth coverage of every aspect of the campaign - including the "Wright controversy" that you seem to hold so dear. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The suggestion was made that I make edits. As has been said above and elsewhere that is a futile effort. For simply questioning the bias of Wikipedia, I've already been threatened with a muzzle. If that's the response I get from a talk page, then I'm quite certain that if I commit the crime of editing an article I will be hammered into oblivion. The Stalinists who run Wikipedia do not seem to have much tolerance for diversity of opinion. That said, I'll give Wikipedia its props. If you want to know the difference between cylons and stormtroopers, you've found the place. If you want to know what the progressive/liberal talking point is, this is the place to go. But if you want a fair and impartial political resource: this is not the reference you want. I submit this article as proof of that thesis. 72.196.233.224 (talk) 11:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

POV

As nobody who thinks the tag belongs can explain why the tag belongs/that the article is POV, it should be removed. It's been argued countless time why it should not be there, and now the editors who keep adding it seem to be adding it just for the heck of it, or because they don't agree with the consensus. Grsz 11 03:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That is correct - no credible arguments have been presented that the article, or the section, is not neutral. Tags are not to be used as POV weapons. I'm removing the tag. Tvoz |talk 07:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As I explained, ...A purposely short and vague description of a controversy of fundamental and demonstrated importance to Obama's career, answered solely by Obama's spin, with no other POV on the subject allowed... we also have the enforcement of Obama's POV that such "old politics" characterizations of his record as favorable ADA ratings must be excluded. The POV tag says what it means and means what it says. A dispute about the neutrality of this article is in progress... Andyvphil (talk) 23:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC) I'm readding the POV tag. Andyvphil (talk) 13:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you even looked at the articles for the campaign or Jeremiah Wright. Covering this issue with as much detail as is done there is a violation of recentism. If you can address the issue subtly, as it should be, feel free. But you haven't. You just go and add a lot of inappropriate information that is already adequetely covered elsewhere. The section has a {{main}} tag, leading the reader to the campaign article, where they are better off finding more information on the campaign, and the controversy is covered in depth. I moved the POV tag, as the article is NOT in violation of POV. I left it on the section, rather than starting an edit war. Grsz 11 13:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It is only of "fundamental and demonstrated importance" if you read conservative blogs, listen to conservative talk radio, or hang on the words of Clinton's spin machine. Most commentators agree that Obama's speech, for the most part, answered the questions asked by his association with Jeremiah Wright. Regardless of whether or not this fact is true, the full extent of the details and discussions surrounding this particular issue are far beyond the scope of a BLP like this. Trying to cover it in this article, with the necessary brevity, wouldn't do it the kind of justice you are looking for anyway. It is much better suited to the related articles A More Perfect Union, Jeremiah Wright and Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote the paragraph a bit. It links directly to the section to Wright in the campaign article. Let me know how it works. Grsz 11 13:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Which bit is POV?

Instead of just wacking in NPOV tags all over the place without comment, kindly explain exactly which bits are POV so that we can try to address them. Give us specifics, rather than simply generalities. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Not reporting Obama's vote ratings is POV. Not reporting that the church he chose to join and support for 20 years was and is known for Black Liberation theology/politics, and not making clear what that is, is POV. Reporting his speech in response to the Wright firestorm only in terms of his own characterization of it is POV. The POV of this article is disputed -- attempting to conceal that by removing the POV tag is POV. Andyvphil (talk) 14:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It has already been established that the vote ratings for ALL candidates in 2007 are thoroughly misleading when indicating career voting behavior because the statistics are distorted by the lack of data. Obama's religion and church are covered adequately in numerous places within the article. The controversy surrounding the pastor of that church is exhaustively covered in the relevant related articles and a satisfactory summary, agreed upon by overwhelming consensus, links to those related articles. The NPOV tag was removed after consensus had been reached, and only re-added today with no specific reason given. It is in fact your own edits that destroy the neutrality of this article, by adding biased and misleading data. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The material you deleted on ratings cover all three years and addressed the missed votes issue. The church and pastor are not covered "adequately", and your assertion to the contrary does not address the omissions I specified. No POV critical of Obama on the Wright issue remains in the article. Material in related articles does not address omission of balancing POV here, and there can be no legitimate "consensus" to overrule NPOV requirements. NPOV is POLICY. It is simply a lie to say the NPOV tag "was removed after consensus had been reached" -- it was removed immediately and repeatedly by edit warring without any consensus. Your assertion that the material you are removing is "biased and misleading" is simply an unsupported and unconvincing assertion. And coming from an editor who has written "Have you considered that the reason the article contains little criticism is because there is little to criticize about Obama?" any claim from you about anti-Obama bias requires proof. And, btw, your self-revert only got you back to 4 reverts in 24 hours. Be more careful in the future. Andyvphil (talk) 15:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Andy, but you are completely wrong about this. The stuff you have been trying to add doesn't balance anything - it skews it in a negative direction to satisfy your desires. And like I said before, I can't even vote! How can I be pro anybody if I have vested interest? Also, unlike you I don't monitor my contributions to make sure I don't violate 3RR. I just do what I think needs to be done. Your record of "hit and run" every 24 hours is different. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You've been warned. You were reported. You offered to accept a penalty, and that offer was accepted. You are on parole. Start monitoring yourself. As to your suggestion that you can't be biased in favor of Obama because you can't vote for him... well, civil words fail me. I would think you were pulling my leg, except you are so consistent. See ~"There is no criticism of Obama because he's so perfect."~ Not ROFL. Just stunned pity at the obliviousness, maybe. Andyvphil (talk) 23:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

andy you seem to have the worst understanding of 3rr policy I've ever seen. Obviously reverting a drive-by POV tag vandal, on a main Biography page, goes pretty close to the BLP guidelines and any user making good faith edits with proper interpretation of BLP as a goal, that is a good faith argument that temporizes any dastardly dangerous violations of 3rr, which surely is the most important issue this page currently has. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

So adding your own POV somehow makes the article more neutral? I don't think so. Grsz 11 15:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Adding balancing POV is exactly what WP:NPOV calls for. Read it. It's "core" policy: Articles must represent all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. Such as the significant view that Obama's choice of Wright tells us something important about Obama. Where is it in the article? It not being there is an NPOV violation. Andyvphil (talk) 15:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It's in his campaign article, because it's relevant to his campaign! Should I start adding Ferraro's and Carville's statements to Clinton's main page? Or her lies about Bosnia? Grsz 11 15:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It also is a bit excessive. How much needs to be said about how he voted? It doesn't disserve the weight you gave to the issue. His voting record is not that important to his biography. Why don't you try summarizing it, as a compromise? Yahel Guhan 18:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps something along the lines of "According to analysis by GovTrack of the bills that Obama has sponsored, Obama is a "rank and file Democrat".[11]" --Bobblehead ^(rants) 18:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What part of "all significant views" are you not getting? You can have that POV in the article, you just can't keep out the others. Andyvphil (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Policy on article size states that an article over 100KB should "almost certainly" be broken up. This article is at 484. Adding information that is already quite thoroughly covered elsewhere violates the Manual of Style in this regard. Grsz 11 19:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies, as I couldn't see size on the edit page. Regardless, these are unneeded additions where there are other relevant articles where they can be better addressed. Wright controversey → Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008; Reviews of his political positions → Political positions of Barack Obama. Grsz 11 21:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Please re-read WP:SIZE. The guideline is for readable text, not for total page size. This article has 37k of readable text. This is well below the 100k "almost certainly" be broken up threshold and it is also below the 50k generally applied to FA. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

See here - I get 35K of readable prose. Even if it's 37K, it is well within all guidelines. But we have worked hard to keep it at about that size - so I agree that the approach taken here, as in all of these types of articles, of having shorter summary sections in the main article and longer daughter articles for major areas makes sense and conforms with policy. The Presidential campaign article goes into great detail about many things surrounding the Obama campaign, including the Wright matter and much more. That is appropriate and doesn't make this main article any less neutral. But a reminder: this is supposed to be a biography of a notable person - his entire life and career - not an article specifically about a presidential candidate. Therefore we have to keep this aspect of his biography in perspective, just as we do on all of the other biographies. That is not POV, that is policy. Tvoz |talk 20:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

And that is precisely what I thought we had already worked out in various consensus discussions. The problem is that users like Andyvphil don't like this approach because they want the article to have a more negative and controversial feel about it. They confuse efforts to maintain a normal WP:BLP style with POV editing. The kind of reportage they are looking for is more suited to the campaign article which tends to report everything in often exhaustive detail. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Summary style guidelines require that the summary left in the main article be NPOV. The notion that Wright's political activities are so unimportant to Obama's bio that the controvery about him is properly summarized by saying only that there is a controversy, and that Obama has give a speech to address it, is laughable. There is another significant POV found in reliable sources, and this article need to reflect it. Further, the idea that Obama's place on the political spectrum is both to some degree determinable and significant hasn't been spun out, merely censored. Andyvphil (talk) 22:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a compromise wording can be worked out? Something in between the two sentences favored by one faction and the up to six paragraphs favored by another faction? Perhaps something that includes a summary of the impact of the controversy? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 23:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

you make it sound like two sentences is somehow inappropriate , when in fact it seems a little long considering the new WSJ/NBC poll which shows Obama lost two points of positive and gained four of negative- to come to a pos/neg of 49/32 (early march was 51/28) where as Clinton got slammed during the same period and lost EIGHT points of positive and picked up five of negative to go from 45/43 to 37/48 (thats 11 points of negative spread BTW) [[12]]

long story short- folks the Wright issue is DOA until (lol Bobblehead) something breaks in the story, which hasn't happened in a while. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Since we're discussing polls, would you like to discuss Gallup's rolling five-day average? Obama has gone from two points ahead of McCain to three points behind in just two weeks, and shows no sign of regaining the lead. In a race this close, the "DOA" Wright issue could very easily cost Obama the White House. It doesn't get any more notable than that. But there are people here who believe that even two sentences with no section header is too much. Kossack4Truth (talk) 23:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

yes you're right most editors do choose two sentences as their consensus version lol. Someone with such vast knowledge of polls as you should then know two things: this is a campaign issue, hence the majority of WP coverage is on the campaign page. You should also know that cited McCain figures is disingenuous when he is essentially not campaigning until the democratic race is over. Your claims about the "White House" are a joke compared to WP is not a crystal ball... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 00:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm by no means saying that two sentences is inappropriate, nor am I saying that six paragraphs is inappropriate. What I'm saying is that the incessant edit warring over the content and the blatant lack of good faith on all sides is ludicrous and has to stop. Unless the factions start to actually discussing a compromise that they find acceptable this article will continue to see edit warring and more rounds of full protection. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Although I think some of the concerns over NPOV (specifically involving his political stance and voting record) are valid, I think as a general rule, this article, by the subject's nature, is going to read more pro-Obama than against him, largely because there is little to criticize HIM about (read that carefully, I do not include Rev Wright or the issues of any other associate to be the same as criticism of him). This is true across the board. For instance, someone like Mother Theresa is going to have an overwhelmingly positive article because there is little to criticize her over. However, someone like say Adolf Hitler is going to have an overwhelmingly negative bias because the vast, vast majority of the globe is of the belief that what he did is wrong (minus Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, I can't think of a current leader of a nation that does not condemn the actions of the Nazis). The Wright issue should ideally be about how it effected HIM as a person, and how it effected his Campaign not in terms of the people, but in terms of both his feelings about it, and his politics. -- False Prophet (talk) 02:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Wright controversy - Bobblehead's effort

Just to throw an idea out there:

In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning racially and politically charged sermons made by Obama's longtime pastor and religious mentor, Jeremiah Wright.[13][14] In the days following the revelation of Wright's sermons, Clinton took her first statistically significant lead of 7 percent in Gallup's Democratic national polling since shortly after Super Tuesday.[15] In an attempt to stave off the controversy, Obama delivered a speech titled "A More Perfect Union" at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in which he sought to explain and contextualize Wright's comments[16] while trying to expand the discussion to include race relations in general.[17] Following Obama's speech, Clinton's lead in Gallup's polling began to recede until the two were virtually tied, but, after leading in the poll by 6 percent the previous week, Obama's campaign had not fully recovered from the damage caused by the Wright controversy.[18]

Just throwing that out there as a start. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on Bobblehead's effort

That seems okay to me, although I still think there is more detail in there than necessary. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

not very ok with me, but I'm a pain anyways so take it for what its worth... I give you one set of numbers, you go with another and don't even mention the interpretation I put forth. Fine, but please know that two separate news broadcasts I watch LED OFF today with a story essentially saying that the polling they expected to show the Obama/Wright problem, in fact showed Clinton doing far worse than Obama. So again write what you want for the hypothetical paragraph, but I would hope it might work toward a more neutral direction. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 00:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

My proposal is by no means the final version that has to be used and is put out there only as a starting point to get some sort of consensus discussion going to put an end to this edit warring. If you don't think my proposal is acceptable, then propose an alternative. It really isn't that difficult. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

in this case your assumptions were probably correct lol, I am a pledged and oath-taken supporter of the current two-sentence version. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 00:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay.. The point of consensus building is to make compromises in such a manner that while you may not agree with the end result, you at least find it acceptable. It is apparent that the two sentence alternative (as it currently exists) is not acceptable to at least one group of editors and as such, clinging to that wording is a non-starter in consensus building. Conversely, clinging to the six paragraph alternative is also a non-starter. If any editor is not willing to find a consensus/compromise that is acceptable to the various groups, then we can start ignoring their contributions to the discussion while the rest try to get consensus. Given that, what's your compromise alternative wording? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 01:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

to clarify, I guess if you want to make the two sentences more critical of Obama, fine I guess. But there really should be no more than two sentences. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 01:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think two sentences is unacceptable, given the amount of attention that has been given to this issue by notable sources, and the effect it has had on Obama's chances to win the White House. I think meeting halfway, at two or three paragraphs, would be a fair compromise. I think Bobblehead's paragraph is a good place to start, and adding the Mark Steyn quotation (as representative of the abundant criticism that is out there in notable sources) is a good way to move it toward completion. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That seems decent to me. My only beef is the polls, as this is not Clinton's article. This article is a biography of Obama, and therefore should only include biographical information about him. I doubt this would appease the other side, as there idea of making it neutral was two or three paragraphs of some terrible Fox News slant, or something along those lines. Grsz 11 01:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Even with the poll bit, is it even worth noting here that Clinton took the lead for what...four days? Something as miniscule as that can certainly be ignored here and taken to the other article. Grsz 11 01:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

More still, the two sentences in the article now, that I rewrote earlier are completely neutral. They mention that there was a controversy, what it was about, and that Obama responded. It makes no judgement on the nature of Wright's statements, or Obama's speech. I can't see anything wrong with this, as it summarizes and directs the reader to the campaign article where numerous different viewpoints are addressed. Grsz 11 01:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Wright controversy - Kossack4Truth's effort

Here is my suggested three-paragraph version of the new Wright section. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Wright controversy

In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning racially- and politically-charged statements made by Obama's long-time pastor Jeremiah Wright. In them, Wright accused the federal government of selling drugs to blacks, creating the HIV virus to infect blacks, and perpetuating racism that led to disproportionate imprisonment of blacks. In one sermon, Wright said that the United States was responsible for the September 11th, 2001 attacks and urged black Americans to ask God to "damn America." Following the story, Obama faced criticism for referring to Wright as his "spiritual advisor," attending the church for 20 years, and maintaining close personal ties to the minister. Wright presided over Obama's wedding and baptized both of his daughters; Obama points to Wright as the inspiration for the title of his book The Audacity of Hope and placed Wright on his campaign's African American Religious Leadership Committee in December 2007.

Obama had begun distancing himself from Wright when he withdrew a request that Wright deliver a speech at the announcement of his presidential bid in February 2008, but when several videos of Wright's sermons appeared on YouTube in the first week of March 2008, Obama released a statement "vehemently disagree[ing with] and strongly condemn[ing] ... inflammatory and appalling remarks Wright made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents." Obama said the remarks had come to his attention at the beginning of his presidential campaign but that because Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of Obama's strong links to the Trinity faith community, he had not thought it "appropriate" to leave the church. After the publicity of March, the campaign announced that Wright has left its African American Religious Leadership Committee. On March 18th, Obama delivered a speech in response to the controversy titled "A More Perfect Union" at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and while condemning the ill-received remarks Wright had made, he also sought to give them historical context by describing some of the events that have formed Wright's views on race.

In the speech, Obama referred to his white grandmother and later explained that "she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know ... there's a reaction in her that doesn't go away and it comes out in the wrong way." ABC News reported that "buried in his eloquent, highly praised speech on America's racial divide, Sen. Barack Obama contradicted more than a year of denials and spin from him and his staff about his knowledge of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's controversial sermons." Critics have found the response not only contradictory, but inadequate. For example, Mark Steyn, writing in the National Review observed,

"Obama is not supposed to be the candidate of the America-damners: He’s not the Reverend Al Sharpton or the Reverend Jesse Jackson or the rest of the racial-grievance mongers. Obama is meant to be the man who transcends the divisions of race ... Yet since his early twenties [Obama]’s sat week after week listening to the ravings of just another cookie-cutter race huckster ... the Reverend Wright['s] appeals to racial bitterness are supposed to be everything President Obama will transcend. Right now, it sounds more like the same-old same-old."

Discussion on Kossack4Truth's effort

Comments about the three-paragraph version down here please. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

For the main article? Entirely too long. Tvoz |talk 01:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Grsz 11 01:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The main section in the campaign article is 6 paragraphs...how can you think this is appropriate here? Grsz 11 01:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Completely unacceptable, I'm afraid. The first two paragraphs are all about Jeremiah Wright and what he said. This is a biography of Barack Obama, in case you didn't notice. I still think a single paragraph is way too long, so a three-paragraph tome about some other dude is never going to work for me. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Three paras is a bit long for the main article, IMHO. I'd really like to keep it to one para at the most. So far it seems the issue hasn't really had a lasting impact on the campaign (well, as far as the primary is concerned). Sure it knocked him down a few points in the polls initially, but he's pretty much recovered from that. Of course, that doesn't mean it can't be expanded if the impact is greater later. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 04:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not just provide links to the appropriate pages ?--Die4Dixie 22:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

Wright controversy - Scjessey's effort

Here's my attempt at a compromise. This is a combination of some ideas from User:Bobblehead and the original text from 72.0.180.2:

In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning racially and politically charged sermons made by Obama's longtime pastor and religious mentor, Jeremiah Wright. Following significant negative media coverage, Obama chose to respond to the controversy by delivering a speech entitled "A More Perfect Union" at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Although the speech was generally well-received for its attempt to explain and contextualize Wright's comments while trying to expand the discussion to include race relations in general, the decision not to repudiate Reverend Wright failed to definitively end the matter.

I believe this satisfies the need for brevity, yet still manages to include more of the negative aspects that are desired by some. The references are intact if a wholesale copy/paste is needed. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments on Scjessey's effort

It's awesome! -- Scjessey (talk) 02:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC) </sarcasm>

Ha - but I agree. Works for me. Tvoz |talk 02:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Couple of thoughts here. The comment that by not repudiate Wright is extending the controversy is the opinion of the guy that created the Swift Boat ads and we should really attribute it to him as that's the first I've heard of that opinion. General opinion that I've seen is that no matter what Obama does it will stick to him in some measure and that this will be added to the general "Obama is anti-American" meme. Second thought is that the most recent source in this version is from the 21st. Perhaps a source from the last few days would be a better judge of the results of Obama's speech and the lasting impact of the controversy? I'd also like to see something that reflects the (temporary) drop in polls as a result. Without mentioning that drop it's hard to assess just why Obama gave the speech (negative press is common in a campaign). Perhaps something like "Due to a drop in polls as a result of the negative media coverage,[source] Obama chose to respond to the controversy..." --Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess I would argue that Obama's speech was responding to the negative press more than the poll drop. The polls were already evening out by the time that speech was given, and usually the internal campaign polls are a couple days ahead of the public ones. bla bla bla etc. Its a minor issue. More importantly, I agree with Bobblehead about the last sentence. If you want to mention the "staying-power" of the controversy, I might suggest saying (to the effect): his descision not to repudiate drew praise from some and criticism from others, including HRC who kept the issue topical into the new week, by saying that Wright "would not be her pastor." again or some jibber jabber to that effect. But again both efforts on a rewrite have been good... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 04:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the Wright controversy has little effect on the polls (short or long term) with respect to the Democratic nomination. It has seem to have made a difference with respect to the General Election, but Clinton has suffered by pretty much the same amount. The polling seems to be more a reflection of Democratic in-fighting than anything specific, so I don't think including the polling data is necessary. Agreed on all other points. I'd like to see some feedback from the "other side" though. The whole point of this is to try to negotiate a compromise. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Any acceptable version is going to have to be clearer about what was controversial and about why Obama's image is affected by the controversy. "Racially and politically charged" doesn't cut it. His problem, and the biographical fact that has to be clear in his biography article, is not that he didn't repudiate Wright now, it's that he signed on and sat there for twenty years while Wright preached from day one in a way that that a lot of potential Obama voters see as hostile raving, and that this is not compatable with Obama's carefully cultivated image as someone who transcends black hostility. And you are going to have to allow some mention of the POV that his response was an attempt to change the subject, not merely put everything in "perspective". Andyvphil (talk) 14:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, this is a biography of Obama and not of Jeremiah Wright. The level of detail you are expecting simply isn't appropriate. Secondly, it has become apparent from Obama's own words and the exhaustive investigation of the mainstream media that the candidate was not in church at the times Wright made the controversial statements that have been reported (although Obama admits he was aware that statements may have been made). Thirdly, we are talking about a handful of controversial statements made over a thirty year period that began during a time of great racial tension and black oppression. This fact doesn't excuse Wright's words, but it does offer context in which it is easy to understand how such statements could surface. Fourthly, it is worth noting that Barack Obama's good character and inclusive stance has evolved despite his relationship with Reverend Wright. Finally, and perhaps most significantly, in the context of Obama's entire life it is now clear that the controversy surrounding Wright has not been of much significance to Obama or his campaign, which is why no more than a brief summary that points to a more exhaustive explanation is all that is needed. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome to your POV, you just don't get to impose it on the article. "Obama's... inclusive stance" may be real or it may be a pose exposed by his voluntary adherence to Wright's church. You may believe that Obama wasn't in Trinity on any occasion when Jeremiah Wright went raving over the edge, and never learned about such an occasion with any promptitude, but there's a different POV that doesn't believe that Obama began lying about this only 13 months ago. And Obama didn't have to be in church to find out that Wright had said Louis Farrakhan "truly epitomized greatness." That was in the Trumpet. As I said, your version is a non-starter. Andyvphil (talk) 11:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. We are trying to resolve the dispute, Andy. Have you nothing constructive to offer the discussion? The facts are these: although the Wright controversy continues to be discussed, it has had almost no effect on voters. It may yet surface again if Obama goes on to win the nomination and run against McCain, but until then it is adequately covered without undue weight. I have tried to come up with an "extended" paragraph with what I believe to be a more neutral tone, building on the work of other editors. Rather than dismiss the paragraph as a "non-starter", why not come up with your own reasonable version of the paragraph so that we can see how far apart we are? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm starting to think you would like half of this article about Wright. Grsz 11 13:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

""The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability" from WP:BLP#Criticism. Did people not know of Obama before this? Maybe a few extermely ignorant individuals, but hardly a significant number. Grsz 11 13:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You asked, "Did people not know of Obama before this?" Four years ago, Obama was an obscure state senator (translation: provincial legislator) in Springfield, Illinois. This presidential campaign is the most noteworthy event of his life. Nothing else even comes close. Scjessey said, "it has had almost no effect on voters." This is a close race, and in the Gallup five-day rolling average, Obama has dropped from two points ahead of McCain to 2-3 points behind and stayed there. Granted, a 4-5 point move can be described as "almost no effect." But going from "ahead of McCain" to "behind McCain" cannot reasonably be described as "almost no effect." Obama himself, who has never previously shown the slightest sign of faltering, admitted that the controversy over Wright has left him "shaken." Scjessey's version doesn't give this cpontroversy the attention it deserves. Add the mark Steyn quote and a "Wright controversy" section header and it would be acceptable. Kossack4Truth (talk) 21:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Two articles from the nonpartisan Pew Research Centre might shed some light on this. On the one hand, this poll shows that the Wright matter hasn't had a significant effect on Obama's support. On the other hand, this poll notes that the speech and the Wright videos were the two most widely covered items in the 2008 presidential campaign to date. I'd say that means that it merits more coverage than the article currently gives, but I'm not sure that the Mark Steyn quote is particularly representative of people's responses to the controversy and speech. If we were to add the Steyn quote, I think that we would also have to add a balancing quotation from one of the many pundits and commentators who have praised the speech. Would that place undue weight on the matter? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. There's more detail on the effect of the Wright matter and the speech on the polls at A More Perfect Union#Effect on voters. Looks to me as if the net effect was more or less negligible. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) - I agree that this election is the most noteworthy event in Obama's political life, and that is why it warrants its own article. That is why Josiah's suggestion of pruning the 2004 speech makes sense. The most recent Pew Research Center poll continues to show that Obama (and Clinton) have a statistically significant lead over McCain, so using polls as an argument for including more of the "Wright controversy" isn't useful. As for Mark Steyn, I certainly don't think the personal opinion of a well-known liberal-hating conservative has any place in a brief summary of what is still only a footnote of Obama's entire campaign. After two weeks, the only people talking about Wright are right-wingers who are never going to vote for any Democrat anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Maureen Dowd's column in The New York Times today is about Wright/Obama, and the desperate effort to force Hillary out of the race before she can capitalize on Wright/Obama. Read it. [19] It's clear that Dowd is not a right-winger and that she's going to vote for a Democrat. There are many, many other examples I could provide: genuinely progressive, even left-wing political commentary from notable sources who aren't just talking about Wright/Obama, but seem unable to talk about much of anything else. This controversy merits its own section, including criticism from someone who isn't going to vote for a Democrat, because they deserve to be heard and there are a lot of them, and it merits a section header. Kossack4Truth (talk) 03:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Kossack- your post there was totally misleading fyi. I mean you might win some awards for a fish story, but as far as commentary on Maureen Dowd, you maybe missed the boat a little. The word "Wright" was used exactly once that I saw, so maybe other's should read that article as well (the word desperate was NOT used ever in that article of course...Maureen keeps it classy regardless of what you think.) 72.0.180.2 (talk) 06:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Wright affair has been heavily featured in the media for the past couple of weeks, and it probably deserves more than the two sentences the article currently gives it. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that it deserves its own section, though — it's not as if the Wright affair or even the speech (which, let's remember, has its own article) was one of the key incidents or themes of the man's life. It's an important episode in the campaign, but it's not as important as the campaign itself, or his time in the Senate. To say otherwise is recentism. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Would anyone object to replacing the current paragraph with Scjessey's version? I know that Andyvphil doesn't think it's adequate, but surely from his perspective Scjessey's version would be an improvement over what's there now. I realize that this won't resolve the issue for Andyvphil, but if we want to keep good faith on all sides we should acknowledge when good faith efforts are being made. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I think there's a substantial number of more in favor than not. Grsz 11 22:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

If moving Scjessey's proposal onto the article would end the edit war, I'd be all for it, but I'm not sure it will resolve the dispute based on the comments above of the editors that disagree with it. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks good, but I would agree that the last line needs work. We can't assume that the situation would have been "definitively ended" if Obama had "repudiated" Wright. Paisan30 (talk) 22:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Josiah's tweak of Scjessey's proposal

Paisan30 makes a good point about what would or wouldn't have "definitively ended" the controversy. I do think it's worth noting that Obama rejected Wright's offensive statements while refusing to repudiate the man. How's this variant on Scjessey's theme? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning racially and politically charged sermons made by Obama's longtime pastor and religious mentor, Jeremiah Wright. Following significant negative media coverage, Obama chose to respond to the controversy by delivering a speech entitled "A More Perfect Union" at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. In the speech, Obama rejected Wright's offensive comments, but declined to disown the man himself. Although the speech was generally well-received for its attempt to explain and contextualize Wright's comments, some critics continued to press the question of Obama's long-standing relationship with Wright.

best yet... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 05:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Works for me. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thumbs up. Grsz 11 05:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Then make the edit. As time goes on, and as it becomes more and more obvious that this issue will cost Obama the White House, perhaps you'll reconsider giving it more than one paragraph without a section header. Kossack4Truth (talk) 12:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If Obama wins the nomination, I am sure the Republicans will try to milk this Wright thing for all it's worth (despite the fact that McCain enjoys the endorsement of some pretty awful religious nut-jobs himeself). However, I think you will find that once the Democrats have settled on and united behind a candidate, McCain doesn't stand a chance with his pro-war and ignore-economy stance. But this is not the place to debate such matters... - This is the best version yet and I would imagine that the concluding sentence and citations will mollify those insisting on more negativity. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, this article is a hagiography. Every valid, well-grounded criticism gets one or two sentences and banishment to a satellite article that no one ever reads. Kossack4Truth (talk) 14:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Well it appears that dozens (if not hundreds) of other Wikipedians disagree with you. This article reads like a normal biography to me. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about dozens, but False Prophet agrees with you that there shouldn't be much criticism of Obama. The comparison with Mother Teresa made me think it was you writing, but I was surprised by the signature.

Anyway, the controversy isn't "concerning the sermons". It's concerning Obama's joining, and then failing to disassociate himself from, a church in which blaming the CIA for AIDS, etc., is considered within the range of normal discourse, rather than raving insanity. And Obama's now added that had Wright not retired he would have left Trinity, so his "declining to disown" in the Philly speech is a defensive position that has already fallen. Now that he's conceeded that Wright is reason enough to leave he's going to have a hard time justifying sticking around as long as he did. Wright's sermons have been broadcast for some time. Gotta be tapes out there, from well before 9/11. And what was well received in the speech was not the "attempt to explain and contextualize Wright's comments". The ones who praise the speech don't praise it for that.

So, some tweaks are in order. But as K4T says, if Obama gets the nom attacks by those less inhibited than Hillary will put the Wright business front and center, and the defenders of the pro-Obama POV won't have enough thumbs to keep the dikes from leaking. I'd rather talk about the ADA ratings. Need to put some flesh on his self-identification as "progressive". Andyvphil (talk) 15:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Hate church

There should be some mention of the hate church he has belonged to for the last 20 years in the introduction - what Christopher Hitchens called Obama's "dumb, nasty, ethnic rock 'n' roll racist church" - and the role of hate preacher Jeremiah Wright, Obama's priest. HillaryFan (talk) 10:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It is mentioned, although without all your equally hateful intolerance and one-dimensional point-of-view. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Stop trolling. That's what Encyclopedia Dramatica is for. Belfunk (talk) 17:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

We shouldn't characterize it as a "hate church". But it is true that the one mention of the "racially and politically charged sermons made by Obama's longtime pastor" is inadequate coverage of this subject. Andyvphil (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

At least pretend like you're objective and come up with a name other than "HillaryFan". The article calls Wright his "longtime pastor and religious mentor", and Wright has his own article, which is linked. Paisan30 (talk) 22:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Puerto Rico (Governor) as example of Issues regarding senator Barack Obama endorsements that have been accepted by Sen. Obama

Could themes like this be considered so the article is more balanced, even from the perspective of persons who have favourable or neutral positions on Sen. Barack Obama's supporters?

Suggested draft of text:

"Barack Obama has distributed a document expressing his appreciation for the endorsement he received from the indicted-Governor of Puerto Rico, Aníbal Acevedo Vilá, charged with 19 counts (reportedly including election fraud and corruption) by the United States Department of Justice. "

My Boxing Ring (talk) 22:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Haha, no. This article is about Obama, not Vila or Puerto Rico. Grsz 11 22:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that critical views should be included. However, this is not fair. Nobody would expect him to turn down an endorsement. I'm sure that some bad people also endorsed Clinton and McCain, but their articles shouldn't make a point of that either. Borock (talk) 16:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Eliot Spitzer endorsed Clinton. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Why can't you include the controversies of Obama?

Dear Editor of This Page,

I fail to understand why it is inappropriate to include the controversies of Senator Obama. It is as relevant to include controversies as it is to include honors and awards. I see that many other political figures have controversies included on pages about them. Furthermore, Senator Obama has publicly came out and talked about the issues. It is important to give all information in a biography.

Thank you for reading,

Person For Equal Editing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.93.191.25 (talk) 23:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see the many other article about Obama before you make such statements. Grsz 11 23:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see Answer 4 in the FAQ at the top of this page. Thanks! --Bobblehead ^(rants) 23:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Change to Presidential campaign requested

Q1This needs to be removed from the Political Campaigning section, 3rd paragraph " Clinton, in turn, had support from the poor and the less educated, as well as those who have not paid as much attention to the race: This is bias and alludes to Clinton supporters as being uneducated, poor, and unknowledgeable about the primary race! This is absurd! This is exactly the type of information that hinders people from being able to learn something without other peoples personal opinions! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Polyscijunky (talk • contribs) March 27, 2008 copied from Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ.[20]--Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, it is sourced. Grsz 11 00:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

(Not that I'm saying it should stay) Grsz 11 00:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the citations given after that sentence don't really support it. I do seem to recall some exit polls after Iowa saying that Clinton had more support among lower-income voters and voters who had not been following the race closely, but that citation isn't in the article, so the sentence had to go. Even if the sentence had been properly cited, its wording was far from neutral. If someone wants to find the Iowa exit poll info and find an actually neutral way to mention that, properly cited, maybe it can be reinstated. As is, it's gone. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

well I don't know about Iowa sources, but I know there are later sources for that claim. It has been pretty much all over the news, prolly the most prevalent was after wisconsin, when Obama picked up lower-income, less educated voters which commentators where not sure he could reach out to. And then again in Ohio when he lost lower income and less educated voters back to her... so anyways plenty of sources for this in general. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 06:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps if you found some of those sources and provided them with a new proposed wording, Josiah would be willing to reinsert the new wording into the section. Telling him that the sources are out there isn't going to change his mind. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

If you want to help McCain win nothing could be better than to bash Clinton's supporters in this article. :-) Borock (talk) 16:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

well there are lots of these type of statements: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/clinton_obama_need_to_cool_it.html

"Clinton will win Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Kentucky -- states which are in line with her base; heavily blue collar, lower income, and with large numbers of older voters.

Obama will win North Carolina with its large black population and concentrations of upscale professional voters, and Oregon, home to large numbers of educated, higher-income voters with a younger electorate. Also, expect Obama to win the primaries in both South Dakota and Montana."

and by the way I was under the impression Clinton was promoting these factors in an effort to solidify her base. I don't know if thats "true" or not though.

also true if we use any of this the language needs to be more neutral... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 21:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

If we want to restore the information in the context of Iowa (which was where it was before), we should have a source referring to the people who voted for Clinton in Iowa. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't really care if we re-add it or not- i am just making sure people realize those concepts do have sources somewhere... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 21:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

minor fix

{{editprotected}} The first reference's source is "Inoglo". It is supposed to be "Inogolo" Σαι ( Talk) 12:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done God is this article really protected again?? Happy‑melon 20:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

U of Chicago - Senior Lecturer

This should be clarified as it's been brought up that Obama's not an actual professor (he is): http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html

Statement Regarding Professor Barack Obama

The Law School has received many media requests about Barack Obama, especially about his status as "Senior Lecturer."

From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year.

Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School's Senior Lecturers have high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching.

Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.

Flatterworld (talk) 16:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course he is. Anybody who teaches at a college is a professor. Grsz 11 17:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, some colleges and universities reserve the name "professor" for tenure-track faculty, or even for faculty members with tenure. But not all, and apparently UChicago is one of the ones that don't. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The University of Chicago recently issued a disclaimer. The text is as above -albeit, the above section lacks needed parentheses. See the following politico.com March 28, 2008 article by Ben Smith [21] Dogru144 (talk) 21:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added a little more detail to the relevant section, and cited the University's statement. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

obama muslim?

theres article fails to mention any of the current issues regarding how obama hows to defend the fact hes not muslim. i am not talking about his muslim background but its a big deal when someone has to defend themselves they are not a muslim. www.obamamuslim.com can be used as a great reference —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.190.208.7 (talk) 04:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It's covered in his campaign article. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Position on Abortion?

I notice there is only two sentences on his position for this issue. After watching today's town hall meeting I'm still confused as to his true position as I'm sure others are. Would someone be willing to expand a bit on this? 216.220.15.211 (talk) 18:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• He's strongly and consistently pro-choice. NRLC rates him zero. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
• See Political positions of Barack Obama. There's a recent things don't go in-depth here. Grsz 11 19:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

2004 keynote: undue weight?

While we're talking about undue weight, I'm wondering whether the section on the 2004 DNC keynote address could be trimmed a bit. It's true that the speech was most Americans' first exposure to Obama, but does its significance in his biography really merit as much detail as we're giving it? Could we make the same biographical point more succinctly? I wonder whether we need the first two block quotes. It's the red state/blue state bit that seems to have lingered in the public consciousness. (Well, at least it's the bit that I remember from that speech.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

be bold then sir... I don't think anyone is worried you're an "ip vandal" lol. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 21:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I didn't want anyone to think that I was using my admin status to put changes in without consensus while the page was protected. I'll wait a bit to see if there are other opinions before trimming the section. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Children in infobox

Should his children be mentioned in the infobox as they are with John McCain and Hillary Clinton? Just wondering for the sake of consistency, it doesn't really matter. -Mansley (talk) 02:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Considering that they are named in the personal life section, it's probably alright if they are included in the infobox.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. If someone wants to do it that's fine, but again, it's no big deal. --Mansley (talk) 03:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable; added. Incidentally, the online cited source in the "Personal life" section gave ages for Malia and Sasha, but didn't mention their birth years. I don't have copies of Obama's books to hand, to see if their birth years were mentioned in them, as the citation would suggest. I put the years in the infobox on the assumption that the "Personal life" section was correct, but couldn't verify without the books at hand. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed change to "Early life and career"

This is a proposed correction to the "Early life and career" section of the article. The name of the law firm where Obama worked for a decade is incorrect. It is Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, and it is a small, 12-attorney firm that represents slumlords. Also, the article says that Obama only worked there for three years. The fact is that Obama worked there for ten years. The current single sentence reads like this:

As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases.

Leaving out the name "Davis" confounds most search attempts and divorces Obama from the firm's founder and godfather, Allison Davis, a notorious slumlords' attorney in Chicago. I propose replacing that sentence with these two sentences and a link:

As an associate attorney with Miner Barnhill & Galland (fka Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, founded by attorney Allison Davis) from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp. owned by Daniel Mahru and the now-indicted Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko, who has raised a total of over $250,000 for Obama's various political campaigns.

Further information: Tony Rezko

Please add your comments below. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Interesting. What happened to the "slumlords" bit? Andyvphil (talk) 14:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
(excuse me for refactoring this after and edit conflict -- Scjessey (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC))

The name of the law firm certainly needs to be corrected. I think the rest of it is okay as long as you omit the words "now-indicted" (per WP:RECENT), the phrase "who has raised a total of over $250,000 for Obama's various political campaigns" (per WP:WEIGHT and WP:RECENT), and the unnecessary extra Rezko link. Also, the first Sun-Times citation is inaccurately attributed to the Associated Press. I've changed the heading of this section because this is actually a proposed change masquerading as a correction. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Rezko isn't just "now-indicted." His federal felony trial started on March 14. The news has been eclipsed by this Wright controversy. Rezko has been under indictment since October 2006, more than 17 months, therefore defeating your WP:RECENT objection. WP:WEIGHT isn't violated because prior to this brief mention, the Rezko/Obama relationship isn't even mentioned. Obama has now admitted that there were periods when he was on the phone with Rezko every day. Like the Wright controversy, this one has been banished to satillite articles that no one will ever read. Kossack4Truth (talk) 14:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I withdraw my comment about the name of the law firm. It appears that the law firm is called "Miner, Barnhill and Galland" (see their website) so it would be completely wrong to make it something else just to alter search engine results. The issues surrounding Rezko are for the Tony Rezko article. Whether or not he is currently indicted is not important to this article because it is not a biographical detail and it violates WP:RECENT because the fact is transient. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The law firm is currently named Miner Barnhill & Galland because the notorious slumlords' attorney who founded it, Allison Davis, has recently retired. During the 10 years Obama worked there, it was called Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland. If you'd like to alter the proposed pair of new sentences to read "Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland (now renamed Miner Barnhill & Galland due to retirement of its senior partner, Allison Davis)," I would certainly agree. Efforts to divorce Obama from both Allison Davis and Tony Rezko in this article are not in the best interests of the Wikipedia project. Kossack4Truth (talk) 15:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it should say "Miner, Barnhill and Galland (fka Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Galland)" to follow the usual convention. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I have now made that change and added the name of the firm's founder, Allison Davis. See above. Kossack4Truth (talk) 15:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)