Talk:Tor missile system

name

this name (torus) continues the line of "geometry" names of SA systems: Kub (Cube), Kvadrat (Square), Krug (Round). --jno 09:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Operator: Myanmar

IISS Military Balance 2007 stated 48 units of Tor Missile System in Myanmar/Burma's order of battle. However, User:85.75.82.99 claim that his "friends" in Russian MOD has confirmed that is not to be true, but he has not provided any verifiable proof that this supposed confirmation from Russian MOD. Please do not make up stories to support your claim. IISS Military Balance is a prominent publication and their information are based upon Weapon transfer registered with United Nations. Okkar 12:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Because the deal is not confirmed yet from both Russia and Myanmar the correct is to add near to the numbers the word ,not comfirmed, to Tunguska , Tor M-1 and Buk M-1 SAMs. when then confirmed ,to remove the ,not confirmed, .

Libya

"Libya has decided to buy the Tor-M1. 20 Launchers to be ordered soon." Reference please. Bogdan 18:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

test —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.166.14 (talk) 14:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Syria

Deleted Syria from the list of operators, while referanced all accounts of Syrias use of TOR seem to originate from an Aviation Week article that miss-identified a recent shipment of PANTSIR for TOR.--Typhoon9410 (talk) 12:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was withdrawn. JPG-GR (talk) 02:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The article currently does not comply with the developed name convention of Russian SAM systems, should be "9K330 Tor" as opposed to "Tor Missile System" like "9K37 Buk", "9K33 Osa", "9K22 Tunguska" etc. --Typhoon9410 (talk)

I partially agree : The Tor Missile System (SA-15) is the 9K330. but here is a little problem :

Tor

9K330

Tor-M

9K331

Tor-M1

(no name)

Tor-M2

9K332

All those variants would also require a separate article... What I suggest is to keep the current name and use it as a system family (a little bit like the S-300 family).

By the same token, The SA-6, SA-11 and SA-17 could be merged as the same system family... It kinda annoys me too to have multiple standards.

--Ŧħę௹ɛя㎥ 21:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thats a good point, its the problem of dealing with all these changing designations (had this problem with radars), even Tor Missile System is quite specific to one particular system, the 9K330. Though I agree it is the better "catch all" name for the whole family and that we should probably keep the current name. Merging SA-11 and SA-17 under "Buk Missile System" sounds good though I would be inclined to keep the Kub Missile System seperate, though they are closely related.Typhoon9410 (talk) 15:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

TLAR

"Each 9K331 vehicle is a completely autonomous transporter, launcher, and radar unit TLAR (smilar but not a TLAR) as it cannot move the missile) although it can be linked into a wider air defense system." This statement from the "Description" section needs to be clarified by someone who knows what a TLAR is. I don't, but there's obviously something wrong with this statement and the semi-compound parenthetical note. Oneforlogic (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Corrected TLAR to TELAR.Typhoon9410 (talk) 15:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia

Source that shows that georgia has Tor SAM is a YouTube video that contains russian generals speculations that georgia might have Tor systems.

Other sources, including russian ones, indicate that that Georgian used Buk-M1 to shot Ty22M.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw081808p2.xml&headline=Georgian%20Military%20Folds%20Under%20Russian%20Attack

Also, fact that Ty-22M was used for reconnaissance is desputed. Somw sources indicate that plain was used to bomb targets in georgia.

The combat history for this article was written during the conflict and does need an update, the interview is a good source for speculation around Tor in Georgia, but you are correct in that the source does not demonstrate its existance. Tor does not show up in any arms database either so I have changed the status to unconfirmed. As for the use of the Tu-22M, recon was the stated purpose of the aircraft in the interview at the time of its destruction. "so we needed aircraft recon, this is why we used this type of aircraft"Typhoon9410 (talk) 15:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've just completed a major rewrite of the article, fixing up grammar, spelling and sentence structure, to make the article more readable. Kudos to all who have worked on this article, it's a diamond in the rough. Just needs a bit more polishing, but the substance is there. If we can get few more references, I reckon we can get this to B-class.

As always, my edits are open to revision, scrutiny, and criticism. Sarcastic ShockwaveLover (talk) 06:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Good rewrite, reads well, minor changes I made.

• Finally got a source for the PGM statement.
• Included Kinzhal trials ship class as I think its interesting to know what vessels are used during development, for Russia it generally involved grafting the new system onto an older vessel, S-300F as another example.
• The 9A330 is the designation of the Tor TELAR as the complete unit, which is based on the GM### MMZ chassis.
• The aquisition radar (top parabolic) and engagment radar (frontal phased) should be detailed as two seperate radar, in the text they seemed to have become merged.
• Georgia has not yet been proven as operating Tor, Nogovitsyn was speculating on a cause for the Tu-22 loss.Typhoon9410 (talk) 14:07, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, I had a look back, and you're right, it appears I turned 2 radars into one. If only that were possible =}. I'm assuming you can read Cyrillic, so I'll take your word on that source. I'm also having a scout around some of the English sites and books, so I'll see if I can find some more. Once this one's done to everyone's satisfaction, I'll move onto the SA-1, then 2, etc. Sarcastic ShockwaveLover (talk) 04:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Place: Soviet Union?

Someone repeatedly writes "Soviet Union" in the table field for "Place of origin". The SU seized to exist in 1991, and the field is not called "originally developed in" or something like this. Please comment - or stop changing it from "Russia". --Bernd vdB (talk) 19:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Its an interesting debate as to what "Place of origin" should stand for, the SU or Russia. The field does not specify any time point, be it current or original so both are technically valid. Personally I would prefer to use SU as it was first place chronologically and I feel it fits better the definition of origin "the place where something begins" and Tor began in the SU. Additionally if Russia is used then it gives the impression the system was developed post-1991, like for example Pantsyr which is false. Anyone else?Typhoon9410 (talk) 21:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

"Place" in my understanding refers to a physical coordinate more than to a time coordinate, but english is not my mother language, so correct me if I'm wrong. BTW the text says precisely where and when the different developement steps took place. The systems that are in use now are definitely russian. --Bernd vdB (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

They are indeed and I would consider the Tor-M2 and Tor-M1-1 to be "Russian" Tor, but the place of origin for the Tor-M1 and Tor was the Soviet Union, as first in the order I would put SU as place of origin. I think it is more correct to use the original location even if it doesnt technically exist today, your origin does not change with time. For example someone would say "I was born in the Soviet Union" it would be less correct to say "I was born in the Russian Federation" because the Russian federation did not exist when the person was born.Typhoon9410 (talk) 21:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The article is about the whole group of systems, and none of those are unchanged from soviet time. Would you also mark a car with this background as "place of origin: Soviet Union"? Strange. --Bernd vdB (talk) 01:10, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, if we had a all-encompassing article on a series of cars that were initially designed and manufactured within the Soviet Union then its origin would be the Soviet Union. It is no coincidence on en.wikipedia I think, that all pre-1991 Russian weapons carry the SU as their place of origin.Typhoon9410 (talk) 11:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so then you should consequently add this kind of wisdom to articles like Lada Niva - where the soviet origin is not mentioned with one word. Otherwise people might forget the importance of history ... --Bernd vdB (talk) 11:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, had I any interest in the article I would edit it accordingly, though the automobile infobox appears to neglect an origin heading anyway. Do we have a consensus on the nature of "place of origin"?Typhoon9410 (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I was just mentioning "Lada Niva" in order to illustrate how far fetched the argument is. --Bernd vdB (talk) 17:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Im just trying to illustrate the meaning of the term "place of origin" for you, it is certainly trivial but im sorry you believe it to be far fetched. As said it is no conincidence that all other pre-1991 articles carry SU as their origin (limitations of the automobile infobox accepted) becuase the SU was the place where Tor came into being, it doesnt matter that the SU no longer exists today. How do you believe that by presenting Tor as originating in the post-1991 Russian Federation is more correct than the 1986 SU when it was actually introduced?

One more attempt at an illustration, the R-36 missile was developed by Yuzhnoye in what is now the Ukraine but the R-36 place of origin was the SU because Ukraine did not exist when the missile was developed. The origin of the R-36 as with any other example does not update itself with the times.

However to just get this tiresome issue resolved I have edited the place of origin to Soviet Union (Russia) which appeases everyone.Typhoon9410 (talk) 11:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)