Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

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1c

I'm working on Abraham Lincoln, and I'm worried about criteria 1c: "it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic". I'm using lots of books by well respected historians, but I'm also using lots of other books. What kind of leeway do I have? I don't want to get bit at the FAC, and waste a bunch of effort. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 04:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is a history specific reply, I am trying to work up this article you might like to read, Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#History, or WP:MILMOS#Sources which acts as a B-class review of what minimum acceptable standards are for history articles (through transclusion). However, take what I say with a grain of salt, I am also apparently a controversial editor when it comes to RS demands, see Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956/archive1.

The first point to start is by attempting to find what the historiography is, for a recent example of this, check Talk:Soviet_historiography#Myths and reality which identified a historian's contributions as irrelevant by search through journal book reviews of his monographs, and located (and tested) an assumption that another historian was an acceptable producer of historiography.

Ideally you are looking for what historians call "A review article". These come out about every 10 years or so on a topic, and cover the historiography of the entire field, making a judgement on what the essential recent literature is and what the major arguments are. These would be "high quality" sources per FA for me.

Lower quality sources would be non-relevant academic writings.

Lower still would be popular writings published as RS per wikipedia's guidelines.

Argumentative use of Primary Sources to prove assertions would rule out an article becoming FA. Use of primary sources to illustrate (as in graphics, diagrams, photos illustrate other articles) would be useful, and looked on favourably.

Use of lots of other books depends on how they're reviewed, if their assertions are fringe, or just factoid, etc. etc. etc. Your narrative and structure in the article ought to be driven by RS historians' consensus discovered through historiography articles. Fifelfoo (talk) 05:22, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Peregrine Fisher, I predict Lincoln will get several archives at FAC, so for clear expectations if it passes the first time up you should be ecstatic. There will just not be enough to make everyone happy. It is unrealistic to use every biography ever written about Lincoln, but you should, I think, be able to speak somewhat intelligently about why you used less of one biography for another. --Moni3 (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've got an explanation for most books, and people I can ask, but I'd reallly like a place online where I can check how good sources are. It looks like The American Historical Association's Guide to Historical Literature is not searchable by google books (not surprisingly). I don't think any of the libraries within 100 miles are going to be much help, either. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 23:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems unreasonable to me to use every available source on Lincoln: this isn't a dissertation, or a book. What seems reasonable is categorizing the types of views on Lincoln, (for example: Lincoln as emancipator, Lincoln as politician, Lincoln as Commander in Chief, etc.), historigraphic views, (such as: Progressive, Marxist, Neo-con, social historian, cultural historian, etc.),and/or audiences (how different groups of people might tend to view Lincoln) and using representative views/works. This leads to a structure that combines narrative (one darn thing after another) and historiography (this is how experts have interpreted one darn thing after another), and assessment (this is how historians have assessed one darn thing after another, and one interpretation after another). I faced a similar problem with Unification of Germany, and this is how I addressed it there. Make sense? Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:32, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(oh, and yes, I agree with Fifelfoo, controversial editor re reliable sources or not -- and I suspect that you can do a lot of work on this via the state of the historiography summaries that appear in the "good" (i.e., peer reviewed) journals, such as American Historical Review, and the like. I can recommend one already, Scott Sandage's article on the Lincoln Memorial. Easy to find, but I don't remember what journal or book it came out in.) Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:36, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification

I'd also be grateful for clarification on 1c, and Fifelfoo's oppose of Nikita Khrushchev on the principal ground of lack of scholarly articles. It strikes me that authors of biographies and other works (while the bios of Khrushchev are 2003 and 1995, other books on him and his era used are 2009, 2008, 2006) are in a better position than us to judge and incorporate such material. I am also concerned about how much scholarly article material (obviously to avoid treading trodden ground, they go to increasingly fine points) are even relevant in a summary style article. There are obvious concerns where these materials are difficult and expensive for a non-university affiliated person to obtain. I will say that I am troubled that there seems to be a shift in expectations, as represented by Fifelfoo's comments in this and other article reviews I have just been reading and I am uncertain as to what the present practical community standard is in applying 1c.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with everything that Wehwalt has said above, and I also think that clarification on these points is absolutely necessary, and not only at some discussion page but in the FA criteria, where everyone can find them: before going to FAC, or even before greatly developping an article. Wikipedia must beware that its guidelines become not ever more absurd and restrictive, else contributors who do all this for nothing will rapidly decrease in number. Only last spring, I experinced that a very respected user (many FAs) was clearly against inclusion of newer (1990s) academic material (books! not even articles) into an older history FA: only the most general biographies/overviews would be suitable for a WP article! So what is WP's policy, please? Buchraeumer (talk) 00:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "WP policy" isn't relevant here, as it simply asks for reliable sourcing. What's been happening at a few recent FACs is demands for particular sources to be used, which is neither a part of WP policy nor the FA criteria. Objections at FAC ought to be based on the content on the article and its conformance with the FA criteria, not on whether favourite sources are used or not. The criteria ask for reliable sources, not the most reliable sources, even if it were possible to establish which were the most reliable sources. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:41, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, 1c requires "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic". I don't think it's usually reasonable to demand that specific sources be used (unless that source is recognized as the authoritative one, or the topic is sufficiently narrow that that source is required to write a broad enough article), and I don't think it makes any sense to look at an article written with high quality book length biographies and make a blanket complaint about the lack of academic papers, but I also think nominators should be prepared to explain why particular sources were not used. It could be that they focus on too specific a subject for a summary style article or that they only duplicate what's in other sources (for the purposes of the article, at least), but I don't think "any old sources that clear WP:RS will do" is compliant with 1c. Steve Smith (talk) 04:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If I may say so, I think that's arse about face. A valid objection, IMO, would be for instance to say that "source X claims Y, but that does not seem to be covered in this article", not that "you haven't used source X". --Malleus Fatuorum 05:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You'll note that "I don't think it's usually reasonable to demand that specific sources be used", so I think we actually agree on that point. But I think part of the issue is that reviewers aren't going to review the content of sources enough to say "source X claims Y", but we can review sources in enough depth to say, for example, "Your most recent reference is from 1978, and here are five major works on the subject published since then. Why have you not used any of them?" Steve Smith (talk) 05:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I take your general point, and I agree with it. I guess I have a couple of recent examples of what I regard as unreasonable demands for particular sources to be used in mind. --Malleus Fatuorum 06:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, getting down to cases, Khrushchev. The two major English language biographies of him were published in 1996 and 2003, with the 2003 one winning the National Book Award. Not being content with that, I used more recent books, including books about his foreign policy (2006), about the Cold War era in Soviet history (2008) and about his U.S. visit (2009), as well as an older book (1978) to cover bits of his agricultural policy not covered in other sources), his memoirs, and a book written by his son (2001) who is probably the leading expert on Khrushchev but whom I used cautiously for obvious reasons. These authors (I am away and have only the 1996 book with me) presumably used the scholarship in writing their books. There is no showing that recent journal articles would correct any errors in the article, or that there would be some great addition to the article based on one or more journal articles, it's just "you just haven't used them". If the article is comprehensive and accurate, and verifiable to good quality, accurate RS, then gee whiz, what does it matter? This is not a thesis. I should add that the Khrushchev article is so much better sourced than, say Harvey Milk (heavily relies on a biographer who was a friend of Milk in life) that there's just no comparison. I will say this, that this needs resolution. People need to know what the standards are and be able to act comfortably relying on those standards.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It's no help to your query, but on the general point, do you think it would be unreasonable to demand that both recent bios were used, or just the more recent, or just one of the two? I think that at the least one should be used, in the case of such a recent figure - if it was Julius Caesar neither might be an indispensible source. Johnbod (talk) 12:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think at least two should be used. I'm currently juggling five bios in rewriting Neville Chamberlain, since one early bio (Feiling) is deemed seminal and another fairly early one is by far the most detailed, though it only covers him until 1929 (the second volume has never appeared). If you rely on one, you are putting yourself at serious risk of having the author's bias pass unchallenged (and perhaps unnoticed) into WP.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Though I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Fifelfoo's point about journal articles, as I noted above, his concern about the sources' origin does seem like a reasonable one, if it's based on accurate information. Of the eight books in the references not authored by the subject, four of them are by people with Russian sounding names; were any of those books originally written in Russian? Steve Smith (talk) 14:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see no credit for translators on a quick glance at them.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are there no major Russian sources that have been translated to English? I realize that reliable sources on political figures might be rarer in a country to which freedom of speech is a more recent introduction, but it's been nearly twenty years since the Communists fell; surely there have been serious Russian scholars of their history to undertake study of him. If there are, but they're available only in Russian, I guess that raises a question about 1c: do we require a survey of the most significant sources, or only the most significant English language sources? I'm largely neutral on that question, but the answer would affect my view of whether Krushchev clears 1c (and indeed whether a non-Russian-speaking editor even could write such an article). On the remainder of Fifelfoo's concerns, I agree with Ottava below. Steve Smith (talk) 02:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see no bios of Khrushchev translated from the Russian, from google and amazon searches. Interesting, Taubman's book was translated into Russian and published there, and is cited by the Russian Wikipedia. That article is not well souced, but it doesn't mention any major Russian bios. I'm open to ideas as to how to determine the state of the Russian literature on Khrushchev, if any. I guess that we would have to assume that since the West is where the money is, any major work would show up if it had any chance of commercial success. I could look through biblios in my Khrushchev books, looking for Russian titles with "Khrushchev" in them, but then how do I assess their importance? Since all major books on Khrushchev use Russian sources (both archival and other) I'd also suggest that they would include any important scholarship in their analyses. Don't know how to answer further.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:31, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"I'd also be grateful for clarification on 1c, and Fifelfoo's oppose of Nikita Khrushchev on the principal ground of lack of scholarly articles." - The article has works by Norton, which is a scholarly publisher. The article has multiple works by Penn State, which is a scholarly publisher. The article has a work by St Martin's, which is a scholarly publisher. The article has a work by North Carolina Press, which is a scholarly publisher. I see seven verified scholarly published works. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the comments by Wehwalt and Ottava Rima. High quality biographies by respected scholars are the best place to begin an article like this, in my view, because they make it easier to judge the appropriate weight for different material. The articles mentioned in the FAC by Fifelfoo I'm sure are useful sources, but constructing an article from such sources requires a great deal more independent synthesis and determination of weight by our editors (which is bad). Christopher Parham (talk) 12:18, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to reviewers

I removed the backlog category, since the page is under 40 FACs. Reading FAC today was a pleasure: I found no FACs lacking image reviews, ample input to promote or archive 12 FACs, little work I had to do myself, and substantial reviews on most FACs. A special thanks goes to all of the image reviewers, Awadewit for maintaining the Urgents template (I think it's helping!), Ealdgyth for her constant and painstaking work on reliability of sources, and DaBomb87 for generally keeping an eye on things and following me around and cleaning up ! And to Karanacs, for making my travel break possible and sharing the burden; I'm sure she shares my appreciation for all of the hard work reviewers do to keep this page churning out Wiki's finest work. Thanks to all !

A reminder, though: Ealdgyth checks that sources meet minimum requirements for reliability. She does not check that articles meet WP:V; reviewers still must do that, and comment on sources she leaves unstruck. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:23, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Enjoy it while it lasts all of three days :P (Ok, I'll shut my cynical mouth up and get another review in, I just can't help it.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 22:31, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that Ealdgyth checks with the link checker tool, which is not very reliable. Correct me if I am wrong, and that she actually checks the links to see if they give the purported information. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 23:16, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Matisse, I've explained in the past what it is that I do, but I'll explain again. First, it is more than the link checker tool, which I do indeed check, but I also check the various publishers listed for the sources, make sure that they meet a minimum standard of reliablity (i.e. they aren't geocities sites, that they are reasonably reliable), I double check any that appear to be missing information. I check all the published/printed sources' publishers, make sure that they aren't self-published sources from something like lulu.com or iUniverse. I make sure that the journals are from reputable publishers. I do not check each and every citation against the information cited to it. I also spot check the formatting of the references making sure they are as consistent as possible. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the hard work you do here, Ealdgyth! We all appreciate it and we don't thank you enough! Awadewit (talk) 02:43, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I know. (smile) But other that that, as I have gone after Ealdgyth and found links that look good but are actually redirects or in other ways do not lead to the purported information, although the link checker show that they are good. Each link has to be checked individually. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 12:35, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in all fairness, Ealdgyth does quite a bit of work aside from simply checking links. She (I think; apologies if wrong) also ensures the sources are formatted properly and that the sources are reliable. It may seem easy, but I've tried it quite a few times: it's actually extremely tedious and, at times, difficult. :) –Juliancolton | ^Talk 21:28, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm female. One of the rare ones on Wikipedia, honestly. Although we do tend to cluster around the review processes, I've noticed. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:15, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen Raul close a FAC in months, it seems. You hardworking ladies are keeping the FAC wheels turning :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 21:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While we're on the subject of thanking people, I always find it curious that nominators almost never thank Gimmetrow (talk · contribs) for the significant work he does at FAC, FAR and other places with GimmeBot. Well, he gets my thanks, because closing FACs and FARs would be quite a chore without him! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm much abashed! These are just the sort of helpful tasks that go unappreciated - thanks Gimmetrow! Awadewit (talk) 02:43, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gimmetrow is very much the unsung hero of FAC. Lets be explicit - you rock Gimmetrow! and thank you for all the work... eh, I believe Ealdgyth is regularly thanked, so I spare her the embarrasment. Thanks for all your work, Ealdgyth it is highly valued. Ceoil (talk) 04:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adding belated thanks. Ealdgyth's work means that content reviewers can just concentrate on the information from the sources without worrying about the other more technical/wiki stuff. A very important job. (And Gimmetrow).Fainites ^barleyscribs 08:32, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Virginia Tech massacre

Can anyone take a look at the FAR for this article? It's on its way to being delisted, which would be a shame because it doesn't to be far from FA status. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Imagine...

Imagine a week in which no FACs were closed due to lack of reviews....Let's make it happen! Awadewit (talk) 17:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Request for a review

If anyone is able to take a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Well Dunn/archive1, I would really appreciate it. It has been open for 19 days with nobody supporting or opposing. I would really appreciate some feedback either way. Thanks, GaryColemanFan (talk) 16:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, looks like it was archived due to a lack of reviews. Please let me know when you nominate it again and I'll be happy to offer a full review. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 16:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Default thumbnail image size is now 220px

Today it was changed from 180 to 220px for all images for which a px width is not forced by editors who include an image in the article. This adds 49% to the area of such images. The result is that a little rearrangement may be occasionally necessary. Images will still need to be audited for size where 220px is still too small (or less often, too large). Tony (talk) 16:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are we sure? 'Cause I had mine set at 200px and went to change it in prefs, but only saw the old 180px choice and 250px. David Fuchs (talk) 18:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is the default size for non-registered users - log out to see it. Could someone who has registered but never set a preference confirm they now get 220? There was a question as to whether they would stay at 180. How registered users who have already set a preference get to a 220 I'm not sure! I expect the 220 option will be added to the preferences selection in due course. Johnbod (talk) 21:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried logging out and have not been able to see the change-I still see the 180px width as an anon. Martin Raybourne (talk) 21:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Same here, though I expect it can simply be blamed on server lag? –Juliancolton | ^Talk 22:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is wierd - now I only get 180 logged out too. Maybe something has turned out to need fixing first. Johnbod (talk) 01:00, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Still 180px on my end as well, logged in or out, and after purging. Hasn't changed yet. --an odd name 16:28, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How short can a featured article be?

Having reviewed some two dozen FACs in the last two weeks (or three), I have noticed a trend among some submissions of severely skimping on the length and justifying it by citing the FA criteria, which, it is claimed, have all been met. For example, a number of hurricane-related articles, (such as Hurricane Grace (1991), Tropical Storm Christine (1973), that, in my view, belong as sub-articles in a featured list, have been submitted as FACs in their own right.

So, how short can a featured article be? I have many many articles (all reasonably well-written, scrupulously sourced, and comprehensive) that were written to be parts of featured lists. Should I be submitting them individually for FAC review? What if I submit an article that is a few paragraphs long, such as Stanley Henry Prater? You are unlikely to find more information on Prater anywhere else. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Archive 31 here, where attempts to set a minimum length failed. I recently commented at Afd that André de France meets all the FA criteria, though far too short for DYK. Johnbod (talk) 21:29, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that there has never been any means of establishing agreement on this issue, and not from lack of attempts to do so. Thanks, —mattisse (Talk) 21:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't believe you're serious Fowler & fowler. Are you trying to set a record for the longest sentence ever to appear in a lead? That's a long way short of FA, and you know it. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can fix the sentence if you don't like it, but the article meets all the FA criteria. Notability of subject-matter is not one of them. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in that case, I submit that primary authors who submit glorified stubs as FACs are abusing the FAC process and taking advantage of the goodwill of reviewers. Should honest reviewers (who notice, by contrast, the amount of effort that goes into a full-length article such as Marshalsea) then simply ignore the short articles, and let the FAC directors work out the full meaning (or the lack thereof) of the quick-and-easy support votes that these articles garner? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewers are not required to review anything they don't want to. Personally I usually only review FACs associated with articles that are under 20kb. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 22:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FA is first and foremost neither a trophy nor a recognition of effort, but a standard to be met, as defined by the FA criteria. If some sub-set of articles meet the FA criteria but are not of comparable standard to the rest of FA, the criteria ought to be re-examined. It seems to me that criteria 1b and 1c are a good start to guarding against inadequately short articles, though the focus on "facts and details" is misguided. The length criterion does not cover the subject at all, oddly, and perhaps ought to be renamed or rewritten. Skomorokh, barbarian 22:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Skomorokh. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:32, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The FAC process has some unstated assumptions. It's all well and good to say, FA is this but not that, but no ones seems to answer my question: how short can an FA be? Can I submit the Prater article and a couple of other short articles for FAC review, and then a few weeks later some more (as some people seem to be doing)? Can others do the same? How long before the FAC review system collapses? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how short FACs are different than any others. Sure, go ahead and nominate Prater; I'd happily review it as I would a "normal" candidate. As long as you follow the usual FAC etiquette, I don't see why you can't nominate another one a few weeks later. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 22:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My personal rule is 20KB, as articles below tend not to be comprehensive enough. That doesn't give a free pass to those above: World War II wpuld require something in at least the high-80s, even as a summary article. Sceptre ^(talk) 22:50, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see what arbitrary limits like 20kb have to do with "comprehensiveness". --Malleus Fatuorum 22:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Prater article is comprehensive. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to nominate it, then. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 23:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I tend to not nominate below about 1000 words or so. I have one FAC I worked on, Ælfheah of Canterbury, that is a hair shorter than that, but the word counter doesn't count the block quote, so it's close. I have Miss Meyers which is comprehensive, but short, that I've kicked around nominating, but decided to not waste folks time with it, it's GA and that's good enough. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Indeed. The minimum size for an FA is the size required to comprehensively treat the topic, which varies by topic, so there is no magic number that serves as a threshold; if you think an article is comprehensive, FAC is the appropriate venue; you'll find out soon whether you are correct or whether there needs to be more work done on the article. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 23:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed? You are not exactly agreeing with Ealdgyth, whose hesitation about nominating Miss Meyers for FA is an aspect of the unstated assumptions I was talking about. The point is that there are many non-notable topics about which it is possible to be comprehensive in a few short paragraphs. Does one then nominate such articles for FA candidacy? I am suggesting that the unstated assumption that underpins the survival of the FAC review process is that we don't; for, if all of us who have written such short articles began to submit them as FACs, the system would break down. By the same token, people who blithely keep submitting short articles are abusing the system. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Those of us submitting "short articles" are not abusing the system, we're exposing thoroughly researched articles, that may be on topics with limited reliable source coverage, to thorough review. This is a quality assurance process. And none of them are about "non-notable topics": if they were, they'd be at AfD ;-) hamiltonstone (talk) 00:03, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You should be a politician, if you aren't already. :) Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tito was responding to Malleus, but his indentation was altered somehow in this revision. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 23:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That was my handiwork. :) I was trying to be helpful, I thought. What does (ec) mean, btw? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Edit conflict, it means that I typed my reply and hit "save page" and someone else had changed the text of the page between when I started typing and tried to save. It's a courtesty to point out you had one because your reply might not take notice of the conflicted comment. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ealdgyth! And thanks everyone for the responses. Dinner beckons, so, good night! Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) I think Stanley Henry Prater, cited by Fowler&fowler, passes the "survery of the literature" criterion (there's only a little) but fails the "comprehensiveness" criterion - its coverage is much less than would normally expect of an academic or politician, and Prater was both.

However I think it's possible for a short article to pass both of these criteria (and notability, if that's relevant). For example some well-known and widely used principles in paleontology appear to made other authors think, "Why didn't I thought of that?" So the analysis of the principle is short but comprehensive - unless it has a requirement to include all the circumstances of the discovery, analogous to asking what variety of apple landed next to Newton. --Philcha (talk) 07:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what comprehensiveness means (at least in the FA criteria). The criterion simply says: (b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context. No major fact (that is known) has been neglected in the Prater article. But the criterion says nothing about having coverage that is normally expected of X or Y; otherwise, I can unilaterally define a "normal level of coverage" for a hurricane and say that neither Hurricane Grace (1991) nor Tropical Storm Christine (1973) have coverage at the normal level, such as in Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Mitch, Hurricane Jeanne, or Hurricane David.

The Hurricane Grace article I mentioned above is different from the Prater article, in that it really can be expanded. However, the primary authors of these (hurricane) articles are taking the tack of dismissing any suggestion for expansion, even when specific guidelines are offered, by defining the scope of the article to be as narrow as is required to preserve the current text. So, for example, in the FAC review of Hurricane Grace (1991), when I suggested that the author add, "4) a discussion of Bermuda subtropical storms, what are their characteristics and which of these are shared by Hurricane Grace. Here is another paper for that: Template:Harvard reference, the response I received from primary author Julian Colton was, " 4) That's irrelevant to this article and seems an attempt to fill it with fluff." I would like to challenge the primary authors to have an independent expert evaluate this response (and I'm happy to provide a list of independent experts). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, if i'm understanding you correctly, F&F, your concern isn't so much that the article doesn't contain all the pertinant information on the particluar storm, but that it lacks context about the generalities of Bermuda storms? If I may generalize from my own experience with historical articles, it would be as if I had nominated Urse d'Abetot much earlier in the article writing process, say in this state or maybe after it's GA status was obtained. Both of those articles are comprehensive, but they contain very little of the surrounding historical context that makes the article easier for a non-specialist to read. That at least, is how I understand F&F's comments ... Ealdgyth - Talk 13:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(To Ealdgyth) That is a good point. The Hurricane Grace article certainly doesn't provide much of the context of the storm, but it doesn't even have comprehensive coverage of the storm itself, unless you define the article to be only about the storm after it became a full-fledged hurricane. Hurricane Grace started out as a Bermuda subtropical storm and the reference I provided has a three page synoptic survey of Hurricane Grace during this stage, which was dismissed by Julian Colton as "fluff." Similarly, as you describe in your own articles, at least two or three reviewers of Hurricane Grace requested that some context should be provided about how it led to the so-called "Perfect Storm." All these too were dismissed by Julian Colton with the remark, "but those are two different storms" (I'm guessing, the expanded Hurricane Grace might detract from the subsequent FA run of the Perfect Storm). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, it's unfair to blindly request that more information be added to an article without raising any specific objections to the content's comprehensiveness, and it smacks of an attempt to make the article longer. Oftentimes the information that is being requested at FAC is irrelevant to the page in question, and in those cases, I believe reviewers should generally defer to the nominator's judgment, as they will be more familiar with the article's subject matter. Scientific articles should always be concise and more-or-less on-topic, and to that end I try to avoid including needless "background" info. Hurricane Grace was just that: a hurricane. It was marginally related to another more notable storm, but it was its own entity. Therefore I felt it would have been unnecessary to add content related to an entirely different storm system. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 14:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No one is blindly requested anything. I read the paper I asked you to include. Can you tell me why you consider it to be "fluff?" Why is a description of the storm's subtropical stage not relevant to the article? It is equivalent to writing an article on an author and claiming that the author's childhood and youth are not important since the author started writing at age 45. We can make such arbitrary divisions for any article. We can split the Battle of the Alamo into Battle of the Alamo (day one), Battle of the Alamo (day two0 and so forth, each of which will likely be longer and better sourced that Hurricane Grace; we can then object to requests for expansion with, "but they are different days." Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because the paper contained very little useful text related to Hurricane Grace's life as a subtropical cyclone, but rather subtropical cyclones near Bermuda in general. It comes down to editorial judgment to determine when the content is sufficient. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 18:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see what length has to do with quality (as a synonym for 'featured'). If the subject matter needs only a brief treatment to convey the essentials, then a short article is actually better than a long one. However, that said, one should note that short articles will always give the impression that they are not comprehensive enough and the nominator should be ready to put up a strong defense. For example, Charles J. Knapp is fairly comprehensive but I wouldn't nominate it for an FA because the sources are entirely online and a rigorous library search may (or may not!) produce more detail. On first glance, the Prater article has very limited sourcing, far less than one would expect for the late gentleman, and Fowler will have to demonstrate that the article is comprehensive despite that. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 13:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(To RegentsPark) :) This is not really about the poor Prater article; that is just a straw man I set up in a hurry to make a point! (BTW, there is very little secondary literature on Prater; I pretty much scoured everything when I wrote it a few years ago.) The point is that in general usage the term "Feature Article" has a meaning, which refers to an article on a prominent topic. Wikipedia's featured article might or might not have the same meaning, but it certainly is treated that way. It is regarded by its primary authors as a mark of achievement. There is an unstated understanding, I believe, in Wikipedia that articles submitted to FAC review have heft both by way of content and notability. I am suggesting that people who don't respect that understanding are like drivers who wait until the last minute (in a traffic bottleneck) before they merge in; they are taking advantage of the vast majority of drivers who have already merged and who have to wait much longer. In other words, they are abusing the process. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:50, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. I didn't mean to answer the question - should Prater be nominated! (Though I would decline to be a punter if you did nominate it!) My point was that the three(?) sources may be all that is necessary but, in any short article with a small number of sources, the question of comprehensiveness will arise.

(To Physchim62) Exactly. I haven't read the discussion, but there are thousands of phylogeny (or systematics) related articles that are a paragraph or two long and are completely comprehensive. Should all the editors in the Birds, Animals, Vertebrates, Invertebrates ... Wikiprojects, start nominating those articles for FAC review? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{Butting in) In my opinion, no. The FAC page specifies: "FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria." That's two different things. The examples you cite may fulfil the latter requirement, but not the former. Put another way, it might be argued that these examples could fulfil the letter of FA law, but not the spirit. I know that many (probably most) disagree with me over this - it is a recurrent issue. Brianboulton (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think this debate is ultimately rooted in what FA's are considered to be. Some people (F&F, for example) appear to take the view that the FA's should represent only the very best of Wikipedia. That is, they believe we can afford to require that an article be of a certain length or voluminousness to be an FA, regardless of comprehensiveness or completeness. This view seems to be attached to the idea that not every article has the potential to be an FA. The other camp adopts the view that any article that meets the criteria should be an FA, no matter how long, short, wide, or tall it is. Myself, I'm in the middle. On the one hand, articles that meet the criteria meet the criteria, and – in that respect – there is no solid reason codified in the guidelines to deny the FA status. But on the other hand, we have to consider why we have featured articles: is it to present the créme de la créme of Wikipedia's articles, or every article that technically meets a set of criteria? —Anonymous Dissident^Talk 01:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, personally I think it's somewhere in between. Obviously we shouldn't be producing "cookie-cutter" FAs; on the other hand, the "best Wikipedia has to offer" is subjective and varies from person to person. I'm of the opinion that all high-quality articles should be officially recognized and exhibited, but obviously others feel differently. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 02:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Signing FAC declarations

Frequently, FAC reviewers amend declarations of support or oppose by striking out the previous declaration and entering a new one without signing the new declaration (see samples here, here and here). This could result in confusion about why a FAC was archived or promoted. Also, I give less weight to a Support that is entered before other reviewers identify serious deficiencies, and more to one entered after issues are identified and resolved. Please take care to strike the old declaration and enter the new with a sig and timestamp. If other reviewers see this happening, please feel free to amend a note adding a diff to the changed declaration, so we'll all know when it occurred. As a sample, when Awadewit updates her declarations, she strikes, amends, and adds a note with a sig saying she is updating her declaration. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Chicago bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics

Can someone who knows what has happened update Talk:Chicago bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:FAC/ar; it will be updated when the bot goes through, likely after Tuesday night.[1] Also, please keep in mind that FAC is not Peer Review, and articles should be nominated when they meet WP:WIAFA, not just to "raise the quality of the article".[2] This kind of advice results in a drain on reviewer time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Renominating an archived FAC

Hi all. I've recently been involved with an FAC that was archived without consensus to promote (Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Villers-Bocage/archive1). This was, I think, largely due to the lack of reviewer follow-up to issues that had been responded to during the candidacy. We believe these issues were addressed, so can we renominate the article or is it possible to unarchive the FAC? EyeSerene^talk 08:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nominators should wait for at least a week before re-nominating. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks. I'd wondered if there was a procedural 'bypass', but we can wait :) EyeSerene^talk 14:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image reviews needed please

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Inner German border/archive1 - Note: NW started and stopped due to number of images. Karanacs (talk)

I've started, but I didn't make it all the way through the article yet. I'll try to finish tonight. If someone else wants to continue, start after the section on "Patrol roads". Awadewit (talk) 18:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Awadewit!! Karanacs (talk) 19:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks-- I know this kind of work is tedious. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Awadewit (talk) 01:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

fourth lev headers

SandyG...I like the fourth level headers we've used on some of the complicated reviews, especially this present one on the Inner German border. It makes navigating the reviews much easier, and responding to comments much more precise. Sometimes once we click on the "edit" button, it's hard to find the proper comment to respond to, in the maze of comments, crossouts, responses, more responses, and such. I realize that there will be pros and cons, but sometimes these reviews are incredibly long and involved. If each "reviewer" had a section, it would make our lives, and the lives of the editors, easier. What are the negatives for this? I'm sure there are some! :) Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The WP:FAC instructions say to avoid headers because of some past bad experiences. The first problem, in the past, was that it convoluted the entire FAC page, but this has now been solved with the use of a TOC setting, so that the subdivisions don't show on the FAC page-- only in each review. So this is no longer a problem. The bigger problem-- and one we really need to avoid-- was that, in the past, there were many circumstances of headings being used in ways that would bias the review or turn it into a battleground: breaks strategically located to highlight or ignore certain points; breaks that conveyed one reviewer's bias; breaks that were inflammatory or inaccurate; etc. And the problem there is that, once we start allowing sub-headers everywhere, they take over even the shorter reviews, and before long, we have less experienced reviewers using them inappropriately. So, on long and complex reviews, where headers are used appropriately without bias and without artificial breaks intended to convey a bias, I let them stand, but I'm not in favor of seeing them take over in general. HTH, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone wonder, as I do, if there will ever be an academic studying section-header bias in Wikipedia? :) Awadewit (talk) 19:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

note:reinserting Awadewit post (not here when Slim posted) that I accidentally removed. My apologies to everyone, espeically Awadewit!!!!! Karanacs (talk) 19:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone wonder, as I do, if there will ever be an academic studying section-header bias in Wikipedia? :) Awadewit (talk) 19:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I like the headers too; I found my last FAC page difficult to handle without them. If we stick to using headers with the names of the reviewers, that should get round the problem of possible bias. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 19:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree they were also helpful on SV's recent FAC, but I hope if they take hold, we don't eventually see them being increasingly used, even in shorter FACs, and then veering into biased headings, the problem we had before. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

if we stick to using our names, and not our beef, then that should help. And we can police it also, so that if someone abuses it, it will be possible to deal with it. Using sections, though, should not take the place of reading other reviews of the article, which might be a temptation. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:33, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

← I thought they were called headings? I understand that header is more appropriate for tables, succession boxes etc. Waltham, The Duke of 01:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of MOS complaints

I present this example for discussion. These issues are easily fixed, and the nominator, DaBomb87 and I got to them in less than an hour,[3] but I hope the frequent MoS complaints are not discouraging nominators from picking up these sorts of issues. When I see them early in a FAC, I tend to put them on article talk, rather than clutter the FAC with these minor issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We also might keep a better eye on WP:MOSDATE#Precise language and WP:DATEOTHER. [4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of 1a, prose

WT:FA?#In the spirit of these things being descriptive.... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewers wanted...

...no application! No forms in triplicate! No background check! Wonderful job with rewards beyond imagination! Help enlighten the entire world! :) Awadewit (talk) 05:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

which topic area and what criteria...? :) Fifelfoo (talk) 05:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See the FAC urgents list for articles requiring reviews of all kinds. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 07:36, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brunel is intimidatingly History of Science for me. I got severely bitten on H56. And I've already said my bit on Kennan :) Fifelfoo (talk) 07:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well a few more have turned up to the 1956 Hungarian Revolution. Pretty obvious, except for the numbers.... YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 02:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to get to reviewing at least one or two to offset my new nom... unfortunately the cops cut my house's cable (don't ask) and so I've got spotty access right now. Reviews are coming, I swear! Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 15:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fifelfoo, it's not necessary to do a comprehensive review of a FAC (unless you plan to Support); any feedback is helpful, so that we're not archiving FACs with no feedback. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have personally been grateful for (most ;-) reviews given to the FA candidates I have been involved with, and have appreciated the time, energy and knowledge people put into them. But I have rarely done any reviews myself; this is in part, because I feel a bit intimidated by the scope of the task, the time it would take, and the responsibility it entails, both to the project and to the editor(s) involved. Sandy's comment above reminds me of a suggestion I have been meaning to make for a while, which I think might help me, (and other editors?) contribute to this process. Would it be possible make a list of some of the specific aspects that need to be checked for each article? Manageable chunks which somebody could do? The list might include: images, alttext, citations, external links, prose, etc etc. Perhaps a sub-page could be made with specific guidelines for each check/evaluation and how it can be done, maybe linked from each FAC? FAC an important but somewhat delicate area, and I feel that it behooves the project to think about ways to build up the skills and confidence of editors to contribute. Perhaps others have different suggestions? --Slp1 (talk) 16:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-04-07/Dispatches cover what you have in mind? Should we do an updated Dispatch? Should we link it to the instructions? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What, no transcript? :-P Waltham, The Duke of 02:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think too high a proportion of reviews just look at articles from one angle (not to criticize the very necessary work of "specialized" reviewers, but the lack of others), & what is often lacking is probing of the overall article, and of the content. Of course the second of these tends to need knowledge of the subject area, but the first does not. This seems to be getting worse, or am I just indulging in Wiki-nostalgia? Johnbod (talk) 16:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we can afford to complain about any reviews we are getting at this point, especially since we are closing noms every week without enough reviews to make a decision about promotion. Awadewit (talk) 17:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) yes, Sandy, I think it's a start, and yes, it could be usefully linked from the page, and I think it is already. But I am thinking of something a bit more detailed, with specifics of what needs to be done and how to do them. And yes, I can also see Johnbod's point, too, though the point of my suggestion is to try to give people a chance to get their feet wait in an easy, manageable way, before they launch into other aspects. Another suggestion that I have wondered about is whether making some sort of "form" based on the FA criteria, might help people structure more general comments and thoughts, and used if editors wish. Something like, "Is it comprehensive?" "Is it well-written?". That doesn't necessarily deal with the problem of people with content knowledge being involved. Maybe part of submitting an article to FAC should involve posting a notice at the relevant wikiprojects to recruit this kind of input? These are just ideas, but I am conscious of the lack of reviewers, and the need to help people join in and feel useful. --Slp1 (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It would be helpful if someone could take on a new Dispatch, linking to the old one and the Podcast. Getting Tony1 involved is key :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's difficult to balance writing time with reviewing time, across FAC/FAR/GAN/GAR/PR, and some reviewers have the admin sloughs of despond to deal with as well. I don't have a solution, just wondering if we're expecting too much. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FAC backlog and declaration disclosures

We might examine whether WikiCup is contributing to unprepared noms at FAC; I'm not saying it is, I haven't had time to check, but it could be a factor. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very wise comment, SandyGeorgia. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It suddenly occurred to me that there may be a reason for the backlog and overload at FAC :) Perhaps someone else will delve into this issue. Somewhere in the FAC archives, I thought we had a long discussion about the need to disclose contest entries: I don't believe that's happening. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What was the reasoning behind that? Geraldk (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reasoning behind what? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requiring disclosure of contest entries? Geraldk (talk) 16:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is an issue for very recent entries. The contest closes on October 31st & there are only 4 people left in now. Wikipedia:WikiCup - Durova, Ottava Rima, Sasata & The Leftorium. They have so far counted 12 FAs between them - 7 from OR. The gamesplay this year has been mostly GA, DYK & Durova's Featured Pictures. She currently leads with no FA points at all. Johnbod (talk) 16:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And yet, I have declared myself the true winner. Go me. --Moni3 (talk) 16:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moni, you always win, don't you? :p I don't think it's a contributing factor, there haven't been more driveby noms than usual this year. ceranthor 23:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandy, I believe that WikiCup entries were generally declared early on; most of the result is that as mentioned above only a few are still in the running, and they are basically featured content regulars anyhow. Let's not blame the contest; it's lazy and/or overworked people like us to blame. :) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 00:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe its reasonable to blame some contributors who've brought works severely below expectations in one or more criteria; who haven't sought peak pre-FA review (either something like Military History's A class, or GA + peering) or where projects lack internal review facilities. On the other hand, working an article that is in most respects of FA quality, but needs community support to get it there is very rewarding, but also very exhausting. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if the current system of not promoting FACs that don't get enough reviews and not permitting their nominators to immediately resubmit might not actually be the best system. In other words, I am wondering if that system might not be better than requesting reviewers to go the extra mile to help out. The lack of reviews is a reflection of the lack of interest among reviewers. The reasons for the latter can be many, but if, in part, they indicate the lack of quality in the article, then the system is working. Similarly, if the lack of reviews indicates nominator fatigue, then too the system is working. The instances to watch out for would be quality FACs on topics that are not of interest to the reviewers. These are the only ones that might require nudging from FAC directors. I trust, though, that the reviewing system is mature enough that such articles don't fall through the cracks. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about requiring a review before each nomination to keep things more even. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 15:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I remember suggesting that once. The quite reasonable reply I got was that it's not so much the quantity of reviews but the quality that matters. Writing and reviewing are different enough that not everyone who can bring an article to FAC would make a good reviewer (just the same as how not every good reviewer would make a good article-writer). There's a lot of overlap, for sure, but having it as a requirement could still lead to substandard reviews clogging up FAC pages, making the delegates' job that little bit harder. Steve ^T • C 15:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler's "The instances to watch out for would be quality FACs on topics that are not of interest to the reviewers" reminds me of occasional discussions at WT:GAN, where some subjects have longer lacklogs than other. I suggest that the solution at both GAN and FAC is that editors interest in these subjects need to do more work on reviewing. There would still be backlogs in subjects where there actually few editors, which would leave FAC a shortage of subject expertise in these areas. But at least FA that would reduce the number of backlogged topics in which the FA director and delegates would need to look for help. --Philcha (talk) 15:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict) Replies to PF and Philcha, The ultimate laissez faire solution would support neither approach. (Not saying if I like the free market here, but I am wondering about it.) Asking the reviewers to submit one review before submitting will still not ensure that the reviews are evenly distributed among the FACs. Similarly, to Philcha's suggestion, one might say that in a voluntary enterprise one doesn't need expert reviewers. If an article is too specialized for reviewers, then the nominators have not done a good job of making it accessible, and it most certainly will be too specialized for Wikipedia's target audience (assuming that the reviewers are a fair sample of it). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unsure if that would solve the problem-- just a matter of the numbers. While I haven't done an in-depth analysis, my hunch is that it takes at least twelve reviews to get an article promoted, so asking each nominator to do one review might not be enough to address the problem. I will say that I'm concerned about repeat nominators who almost never review, and encourage others reviewers to lean on those people to pitch in, to the extent that they focus on editors with good reviewing skills :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we can have a nominations-reviews index, NRI, for each nominator (like the body-mass index, BMI), and if, mathematically speaking,

NRI>1/12

, then NO DICE. (Mine, btw, for 2009, is 1/29.) Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:57, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There was actually a proposal at wikicup to offer points for reviews, but it was rejected out of concern that it would lead to drive-by reviews rather than the in-depth work that's needed. But at the very least, I think FAC regulars should feel free to regularly drop a note on the wikicup talk page during next year's competition reminding participants that all wikicup participants are better served if they offer quality reviews to each others' articles. The same applies to the other processes as well. Geraldk (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I do agree that in many cases a lack of reviews may mean a lack of quality; this can be especially true if there are comments but no declarations. Sometimes, it may mean that there are too many articles on a particular topic nominated in a short time frame and reviewer attention span has wandered. Sometimes it implies nominator fatigue (I'm tickled that my terminology has been picked up ;)), and sometimes I suspect reviewers had no idea what the article was about from the title and nomination blurb and so didn't take a closer look.

I think nominators can also be reminded that it is okay to try to find reviewers. As long as the nominator adheres to certain criteria (neutral messages to neutral parties), then this is often a good way to get more eyes on an article. Beyond posting at wikiprojects (which doesn't always help), I've occasionally approached some FAC reviewers who have experience in whatever general topic I am presenting and politely requested that they look at the article. I've also left notes on my own talk page that I have an article at FAC and I would appreciate any feedback. It is also okay to infrequently post here to attract more eyes to the article (best if the article is on a second nomination or later and still not getting feedback). I've noticed several reviewers here who graciously answer these requests. Karanacs (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think Fowler&fowler's "If an article is too specialized for reviewers, then the nominators have not done a good job of making it accessible" is difficult in a few subjects - mathematics and much of physics would baffle me, and I suspect chemistry would too; and perhaps advanced topics in music. And I'd be scared to review a medical article without a relevant expert on hand - an apparently innocent copyedit might lead to a lawsuit. --Philcha (talk) 17:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Replies to Karanacs and Philcha) I agree with pretty much everything Karanacs has said. And I agree with Philcha's last comment as well; I was going to add a PS to my post with a caveat for the hard sciences, but got called away. And, yes, music, medicine, linguistics, ... would belong as well. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:18, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note: in those cases, and where all else is going well in the FAC, I follow the example set by Marskell at FAR, and go out and ping content experts who have proven effective at FAC and ask them to weigh in. I try not to close otherwise worthy FACs just because content experts haven't weighed in, and to avoid promoting them until they have. Also, because I edit medical articles, and was a math undergrad who switched from physics, those articles don't intimidate me, and if I find them inaccessible, it raises my eyebrows :) Fortunately, Karanacs' content area is different than mine, Tony1's background is in music, etc.-- so hopefully we have these bases pretty well covered, but if reviewers see issues, I hope they'll raise them here on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

as a former grant and proposal editor (academic side), explanations that are not intelligible to the smart undergraduate major caused me to raise my eyebrows. If a prof told me his or her project was too complex for me to understand, I would tell him to go away and come back when he has figured out how to explain it. My penny's worth on expert-written articles. ;) For accessibility, ency. articles should be the access point, not the turning away point. Consequently, I'm always looking for a section on context or background, to place a piece of literature, music, art, movie, whatever, into some sense of time and place. When I decide if I will review an article, I look for ones that I'm interested in (topic wise) or by people with whom I have a history, even if I'm not interested in the topic. If someone with whom I have a bad experience is nominating, then I still don't review, even if I'm interested. It's too much hassle. As for the rest of this conversation, it has been very interesting, but I'm still not sure what we mean by "declaration disclosures"...Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I need to get back to the declaration disclosures post, but would like to see more community feedback first. On your accessibility thoughts, I agree (and will hold my comments on some of the older math/physics FAs that appeared at FAR :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

and a declaration disclosure is....? Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"I'm nominating as a part of a contest. The passing of this nomination will get me points in that contest. Others in the contest may support or oppose based on my place in the contest as opposed to the quality of the article." --Moni3 (talk) 18:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disclosing any sort of prior involvement in the article or contributing factors. For example, when WP:FAT was active, those FACs garnered a very high number of Supports, but many of the editors supporting had some level of involvement, so I generally made sure that there was substantial, independent review from non-FAT members before promoting. FAT was easy to keep up with because it involved many experienced FA writers; these other contests are more difficult to follow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's also appropriate to mention when a reviewer has participated in a previous review process for that article - GA, PR, A-class reviewer. Some nominators specifically point this out, most reviewers tend to disclose that level of involvement. Karanacs (talk) 19:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or for example, "I did some copyediting on this article when it was at peer review" or "I'm a member of the Hurricane Project". Any information that helps us assure independent review. As a more general response, both Karanacs and I work hard to know what's up in the community and assure independent feedback on FACs. That means knowing who is in what WikiProject, who's feuding with whom, who's friendly with whom, who is a content expert in a given area, and all sorts of other things-- not all pleasant :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:13, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

got it now. Thanks! Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess my only question is what purpose such a disclaimer would serve? With a reviewer who may have a coi, a disclaimer makes sense, but my concern (and, full disclosure, I'm a potential participant in next year's cup) is that it might dissuade reviewers from taking a look at the nom. That is, if the assumption is that wikicup-related noms are more likely to be inferior work. Which, btw, I don't think is a given - Ottava Rima's last few have been pretty impressive. Geraldk (talk) 00:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The aim is to assure articles receive independent, unbiased review, unfettered by external issues, such as mentioned above in the examples. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the past, article assessment, such as GA, where oversight has been significantly less, witnessed several contest participants passing GAs for points where the articles were clearly not of GA quality. It was not the WikiCup and the number of GAs reviewed/passed were the factor that increased points for participants. While the mechanisms of FA make that a bit more difficult, a statement of disclosure nonetheless alerts Karanacs and SandyGeorgia to the idea that other issues may come into play. Any FAC may be politically gamed because a reviewer dislikes a nominator or dislikes someone who opposes/supports, but contests put time pressures and other stresses on an FAC. I see no problem in disclosing that the nominator is participating in a contest where the outcome of the FAC will influence his/her standing. When the Wikicup was established, I personally tried to persuade the participants to make sure their articles were more than ready for the FAC process instead of nominating an article prematurely to get feedback and comments to know what to focus on to attain a promotion. For some reason, points compromise editors' judgment about quality. --Moni3 (talk) 00:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, those explanations make sense. I'm all for it then, may recommend it over at FLC too if you all approve it here. Geraldk (talk) 00:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) (Reply to Moni3) The mad rush at GAN, in these closing days of Wiki Cup, can certainly impact FAC submissions. Not right now, but down the road. I see cookie-cutter articles written in uncertain syntax and lacking overall coherence being submitted frenetically. The chances are good that these same articles, with minimal refurbishing, will appear here soon. So, a declaration that the article's GA version was submitted for Wikicup (and when), would be good. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

None of the articles I have nominated for FAC during the WikiCup were new articles nor where they anything beyond what was created with multiple people and then sat for a while "fermenting" in the Wikiverse until they were decided as suitable and then prepped. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, so Fowler is proposing that Wikicup declarations should be in place even after WikiCup closes? (Ottava, no one is pointing any particular fingers as far as I can tell :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I just wanted to point out my theory about nomination and the rest. I like to let articles sit and experience random cleanings (all of those AWB wanderers with their notable mistake checkers and random IPs who, on the rare moment, actually fix things). Right now, I have about 300 articles I've worked on. 30 of them could be put through GAN that aren't listed and about 10 could be put through FAC. Of course, a little work and clean up first to do final tweaking, but I always tend to keep a large reserve of such articles and put forth things depending on my mood and feeling. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:43, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Reply to SG)"Ah, so Fowler is proposing that Wikicup declarations should be in place even after WikiCup closes?" Yes. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Citation styles

Recently, specific citation style requests are appearing at FAC: neither WP:WIAFA nor WP:CITE require or prescribe a specific citation style, so I hope reviewers and nominators alike will understand 2(c) of WIAFA:

(c) consistent citations: where required by criterion 1c, consistently formatted inline citations using either footnotes (^[1]) or Harvard referencing (Smith 2007, p. 1)—see citing sources for suggestions on formatting references; for articles with footnotes, the meta:cite format is recommended.

Citation templates are not required, nor is a specific style of bibliography or separate notes and bibliography section, other than what is stated in the two pages above. Further, CITE is a guideline that states that established citation style should not be changed without consensus. It's not necessary for nominators to jump through hoops to write citations in a style preferred by an individual reviewer: it is necessary for the citation style to be consistent and for all relevant information to be provided. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What Sandy says is true. But it sure would help things if Wikipedia could kindly agree on any one style. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And since they haven't and probably won't, some of us format citations manually to avoid the problem of the constantly changing citation styles :) Also, noting that Wikipedia:LAYOUT#Standard appendices and footers does not call for a separate Bibliography section, although it is sometimes used. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:12, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And they still should agree. I have been waiting since I joined this place. Believe it. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the minute they try to dictate one style, I suspect they will lose a ton of good editors who hate that particular style and will just stop editing rather than having to dela with trying to use it. Even the academic world can't agree on single citation style, it varies by topic, mood, whatever. No reason Wikipedia should have one forced citation style either, so long as they are consistent and valid per CITE. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:19, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply but it won't do. In a shared environment like this, an agreement makes sense. People do what is right if right is apparent. Assume good faith. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Right is not apparent, nor does it have anything to do with "what is right". There is no one citation style that is "right". I don't see anything bad faith in my remarks. I'm speaking from actual discussions, knowledge, and my own feelings. I will not work on articles that have an established citation style that is not the one I prefer, and I would walk away if it was ever made that only Harvard, for example, was the "allowed" style. Rather than trying to enforce one valid style over another, I think its better to actually focus on just getting citations period. Lack of them, not lack of a single style format, is a far bigger issue across Wikipedia. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs)

OK, you win. But what did you win? -SusanLesch (talk) 02:42, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

^ Smith 2007, p. 1.

[1] Smith 2007, p. 1.

[1]