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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Agha Nader (talk | contribs) at 16:54, 17 May 2010 (→Zionism as Self-Determination: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former featured articleZionism is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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December 15, 2003Featured article candidatePromoted
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July 26, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
August 28, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
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Verifiability of demographics table

The following demographics table appears in the History section, yet its reference source is a dead link and I could not verify the data.

Population of Palestine by religions
year Muslims Jews Christians Others
1922 486,177 83,790 71,464 7,617
1931 493,147 174,606 88,907 10,101
1941 906,551 474,102 125,413 12,881
1946 1,076,783 608,225 145,063 15,488

A new veiryable citation is needed, and it would greatly help if 19th century data could also be included. John Hyams (talk) 02:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1947 UNSCOP report, p 29. But don't stop there: the rest is great reading. Start with the table on p. 31 for a good laugh. Emmanuelm (talk) 02:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A Nationalist Movement?

Is there any reason not to describe Zionism as nationalist - have done so in first para of lede, in line with http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/657475/Zionism 93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar in lede, don't know how to fix.

The second paragraph ends, "...largely as a response by Ashkenazi Jews to antisemitism and the Russia." What is this trying to say? I'm assuming it's not "antisemitism in Russia" given, you know, the Holocaust and all. Can someone more knowledgeable in the matter fix it? Thanks. Throwaway85 (talk) 10:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


It is antisemitism in Russia. As many as hundred of thousands of Jews were killed in pogroms between 1800 and 1917. If you want to edit this page you should know that. Unfortunately the Holocaust has overshadowed this subject on Wikipedia and there are no comprehensive articles.

see Anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire and Menahem Mendel Beilis

Also History_of_Zionism#Pre-Zionist_Initiatives_1799.E2.80.931897

See what Leon Trotsky had to say about the status of Jews in Romania: [1]

Telaviv1 (talk) 12:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"If you want to edit this page you should know that." Easy Tiger. I was merely pointing out an incomplete sentence in the lede. See WP:BITE. Throwaway85 (talk) 09:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies. I fixed it. Telaviv1 (talk) 09:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, thanks for that. Throwaway85 (talk) 10:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muslims supporting Zionism

Someone erased from this paragraph the names of prominent Arab Muslim proponents of Zionism, hiding them in a separate page. Non-Arabs and Arab Christians, however, remained. This decision reeked of racism. I corrected it. Emmanuelm (talk) 02:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This section lists controversies related to Israel and Zionism that may be added to the article's section on "Opposition to and criticism of Zionism".

Policies and politics
Critics
Violence and conflict
Extremists
Palestinians

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.7.202.2 (talk) 20:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Zionism as Self-Determination

The lead states: "Its proponents regard its aim as self-determination for the Jewish people." The sources cited do not support this statement. Instead, the sources regard the aim of Zionism as self-determination. Needless to say, they do not speak as the representatives of Zionism, nor is their opinion held by all Zionists (at least no evidence of this has been provided). As it stands, the statement is a subtle example of synthesis WP:OR. Unless further evidence is provided , the statement should be changed to "Some proponents" or removed. Agha Nader (talk) 00:32, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are published by proponents of Zionism. It would be better to use third-party sources for the statement, which probably do exist. However, using the sources without attribution would very likely result in a violation of WP:NPOV.  Cs32en Talk to me  02:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
here are the cites: Jeffrey S. Gurock, American Zionism: mission and politics (1998) p 289; Moshe Davis, Zionism in transition (1980) p 56; "Zionism: Changed perceptions of," in Glenda Abramson, ed. Encyclopedia of modern Jewish culture (2005) vol 2 p Page 991. Rjensen (talk) 02:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I checked one of the sources you cited, Gurock; "It was sustained, however, as a result of the activity of the Zionist in this country; they propagated the idea of Jewish national self-determination as a fundamental element in political Zionism" (p 289). Are the rest of the sources like this one? Gurock asserts (I think correctly) that Zionists propagated the idea of Zionism as self-determination. Gurock doesn't say whether they regarded, or believed, Zionism was a form of self-determination, because he has no way of knowing if they believed what they propagated. Gurock simply says that the American Zionists publicized Zionism as a form of self-determination. We should not go further than the sources go, and assert that the Zionists regarded Zionism as self-determination. Given the source you cite, perhaps the sentence should be changed to "Some Zionists have propagated the aims of Zionism as self-determination for the Jewish people." I only say "some", because the source speaks only to American Zionists. If the other sources you cited make this claim for other Zionists, then the sentence should be changed, perhaps to "most". Agha Nader (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is this discussion serious ? Zionism is by definition the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. There is nothing to prove, that's the only reason Zionism exists. Benjil (talk) 08:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When a group propagates the idea of Jewish national self-determination as a fundamental element in political Zionism they are saying that it is really important. When the source is referring to the movement it is against Wiki policy to rewrite the source as falsely stating that only "some" people in the movement propagated the idea. Where does Agha Nader get the strange notion that the historian Gurock "has no way of knowing"--that is OR on the part of an editor and is not allowed. To keep up the discussion Agha Nader must reveal the sources he is relying upon, or the objects are dismissed as quibbling. Rjensen (talk) 09:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid you misunderstood the points in my post. First, in the citation you provided, Gurock speaks only to American Zionists. It would be "against Wiki policy" (as you say) to expand Gurock's point and apply it to all the proponents of Zionism, as the article currently does. Second, I would like to invite you to read WP:OR, so that you can reconsider your statement "that is OR on the part of an editor and is not allowed." The argument I was making is that Gurock only asserts that American Zionists propagated the idea that Zionism is a form of self-determination, he never asserts that they believed it, or regarded Zionism as self-determination. When I said he "has no way of knowing", I was merely illustrating the point that Gurock can't possibly be asserting what you claimed he was asserting. That is, he has no way of knowing what American Zionists actually believed (he surely doesn't claim to in the citation you provided), he can only speak to what they propagated (and this he does when writes "they propagated the idea of Jewish national self-determination as a fundamental element in political Zionism"). Finally, Benjil, this discussion is serious; while you may think you know the definition of Zionism, it appears that you are unclear about the definition of self-determination (it is not equivalent with a "national liberation movement"). The source Rjensen cited, Gurock, seems quite reliable, and you should consider why he used the word "propagate" in this context. Agha Nader (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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