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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) at 04:31, 17 March 2011 (Archiving 2 thread(s) from Talk:Death panel.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Translation requested

I see some material was deleted with an edit summary that I can't decipher.[1] Could you please explain? Angel's flight (talk) 17:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

This relates to much discussion above. Besides that, the text violated WP:INTEGRITY by not following the general principle of inline citations; it failed WP:V. This would have been more appropriate:
But the sentence itself is wishy-washy and vague, and IMHO, says nothing. So really, it should have looked like this:
But sentences like that don't belong in an encyclopedia, so I removed it. IMO=in my opinion. IMHO=in my humble opinion. 4=for. Jesanj (talk) 19:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

::Reading between the lines, I get the impression here that you don't really approve of a summary appearing at the beginning of a section. Everything in the deleted sentence is more than adequately documented in the paragraphs which follow. If it were a stand-alone sentence, I could see the point in your objections. Angel's flight (talk) 20:28, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, your impression, which is more explicitly put in my edit summary, is correct. I think this type of "summary" is unnecessary. No other section, as far as I can tell, has something like this. And I think we have lots of these for a reason: to encourage encyclopedic writing; so I think you can begin to see my point even thought the sentence is not stand-alone. Furthermore, even if there were consensus for a summary like this, the sentence I removed is not WP:NPOV in my opinion—thus the WP:UNDUE. It advances a vague opinion without providing Orzag/Factcheck counterclaims. Jesanj (talk) 22:16, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Palin's use of the word "rationing"

Clearly Palin is using the word rationing in a way that does not meet the normal use of the word.

Rationing happens when a good is distributed at a price level below that which the market would otherwise support. It means for example, to distribute fairly so that everyone gets something that they would desire, but not all. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ration As when food or petrol (gas) is rationed in wartime. Palin seems to think that the government will set a price for the services of a doctor that will cause some doctors to quit Medicare services. That, if it were true might cause doctor shortages in Medicare similar to that experienced in the Medicaid services in some states with some people being able to find a doctor in their area, but some having difficulty. This would be a problem of UNDERFUNDING leading to SHORTAGES. This is an economic phenomena (similar to that which happened with bread in Russia when it was heavily subsidized). But it is not RATIONING unless the government devises a way to distribute the problem fairly in some way. And as I understand it, the IPAB would not have power to do that.

She is misusing the word RATIONING. I do not think that we need to find a reliable source to state this in the article. It is clear from pure logic that it is true.--Hauskalainen (talk) 03:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Of course it would not be the first time she got her language use muddled. Didn't she once use the "word" refudiate?Hauskalainen (talk) 03:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Your original research is noted, but not notable. In any case, your understanding of how Medicare will be affected is incorrect, yet correct at the same time. The government already sets the price for medical services under Medicare. These reimbursement rates are already to the point where a physcian loses money on medicare patients. The solution for physcians has been to offset this loss with private insurers (or fraudulantly bill medicare for services not rendered). Increasing the number of patients on Medicare will have the effect of increasing this loss as a proportion of services rendered. The consequence is that physicians will/have reduce or stop accepting Medicare patients (which they have already done). Thus in effect Medicare services will be rationed by physicians to limit their losses. You can't force physicians to see patients. Arzel (talk) 04:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

You may think it is original research, but I know rationing when I see it. The NHS does not really ration care - there is no annual or lifetime limit on care costs, and clearly there are people who receive care worth millions and others who get none at all because they are fit and healthy. The NHS does baulk at paying huge sums for pharmaceuticals unless the benefit is over a certain threshold, and the same rule applies to everyone, so in that very limited sense there is a rationing process. But that certainly cannot apply to IPAB which has to "submit its recommendations to Congress annually on how to best improve quality of care for Medicare beneficiaries, while reducing the rate of growth in Medicare costs." That is quite vague but it clearly means getting more for less, not less for less. Where is the "fair shares" notion in the IPAB's task? And though I have heard the argument that doctors lose money on Medicare I refuse to believe a word of it. Any self serving doctor would give up Medicare completely, but as I understand it, very few do. What's more I suspect that most private insurers pay Medicare rates or less because Medicare is a standard setter for the industry. I doubt that any insurer is bigger than Medicare and has more clout. And that would explain why the US Medical profession loves to complain about Medicare rates. Why else does a fairly standard procedure like a knee replacement cost £15 000 in an English private hospital a´compared to anything from $80 000 up to $150 000 in the US?Hauskalainen (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

No, you do not understand. Doctors in general lose money on every Medicare patient they see. That is a fact. Hospitals charge a rate for a service rendered. This is the amount that private insurers pay if they approve the service (which usually happens unless the service is experimental). Medicare reimburses a rate that they set regardless of what the hospital charges. One of the biggest drivers of cost in the US is malpractice. Extra testing and services are often performed to avoid potential malpractice lawsuits in the event that a physcian will miss some disease or disorder. This is in addition to the increase in costs that malpractice causes rates to increase on their own. Knee replacement in the US is about $40,000 on average, I don't know where you got your figures, much of that increase in cost is due to regulations, malpractice avoidance, and research and development. Arzel (talk) 23:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Just a reminder that talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject so I made my reply here. Jesanj (talk) 17:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Susan Dentzer, editor of Health Affairs

I've incorporated, again, an opinion attributed to this editor on what fueled the "'death panels' fury of 2009". It has been removed previously with the rationale "Palin did not connect Death Panel to CER (or if she did, lets have a reference for that)". I find this argument irrelevant. Dentzer is an established mainstream expert in health care policy, ahead of Palin in this field, so her opinion is notable. Jesanj (talk) 23:27, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem here is that Dentzer has herself not cited how she came to think this. Where has anyone ascribed the term "death panel" to comparative effectiveness research? These journal articles usually provide sources for claims like this, but this time none has been forthcoming. This is the complete inverse of the situation we had earlier. Here we have a claim, unsubstantiated about an organization being a death panel for something that looks nothing remotely like a "death panel" in our definition, and you think it passes muster to go into the article: Whereas we have Kelly flatly refusing to accept the "real death panels" (though not called that by any souce I have seen) being insurance company bureaucrats on bonuses to "cut medical losses" (codeword for not paying valid insurance claims) which looks, feels and smells like a death panel to me and I daresay many others. I am sure I have heard Michael Moore refer to these as death panels but am damned if I can locate the quote. I think the powers that be have nobbled Google... I see Kelly has been silent on my point about the socialized medicine giving plenty of references in support of socialized medicine around the world without hardly any mentioning "death panel". Unless I hear a good reason very soon I will add back the insurance company bureaucrats case.Hauskalainen (talk) 22:14, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
No one needs to ascribe the term to CER for it to stand. That's not what it is saying. Perhaps some conservatives didn't like CER, fretted, and Palin collected that worry up with other conservative worries (rational or not) packaged it all together and gave us 'death panel'—a ridiculously vicious statement. Jesanj (talk) 03:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Times journalist reading of Palin's mind . . .a valid source????

There has been a spat over the Times journalist allegedly saying that Palin was talking about NICE. Although Google has this article in its cache, it has disappeared from the Times website. My guess is because it is totally untrue. Palin was not talking about NICE and she has admitted as such (at least she has told what she thinks she was talking about, and that was not NICE). I'm fed up with the to- and fro- ing on this one so I am taking it to the Reliable Sources noticeboard. If anyone wants to defend its use, do ot there.Hauskalainen (talk) 00:18, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

:Please follow this link: WP:V. Angel's flight (talk) 02:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

NICE

The section on NICE includes information that people can top up their NHS provision so as to get cancer treatments they wouldn't be able to otherwise. Which is probably true. However, I think it should be made clearer that the NHS isn't the only healthcare provider in the UK. If you want to take out medical insurance or just pay for your treatment and you have the money, then you can. --FormerIP (talk) 01:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Context/background

Contextual content was removed with this edit, which intended that some of the content be restored. The section was largely derived from Table 1 of the Nyhan publication (page #9). Nyhan writes about how the phrase emerged in the context of a circulating myth. I think restoring this material would strengthen the article by letting readers know about the extent of coverage that contributed to the spread of this concept. Talk radio, for example, is not currently mentioned in the article. Any comments/concerns? Jesanj (talk) 04:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I reinstated this material and then it has been removed, then reinstated (by me) and removed again. How about we at least leave it up until that stuff is incorporated into prose? The tag only says "may be better presented using prose". I don't think lists never belong here. Jesanj (talk) 02:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Having a list of every instance of the term is unnecessary. This way is enough to let the reader go to the reference in question if they want to analyze the evidence provided. I think I would go farther than some in trimming individual occurrences of "This person said it here" and that's fine. But the particular list in question just makes the article messy in my opinion. Dabnag (talk) 03:10, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Nyhan writes that "Table 1 provides a timeline of prominent conservative and Republican elites who endorsed this myth in the press..." So there is no claim that Table 1 is a comprehensive list. Do you think if the material was presented in a table it would be less "messy"? I do not understand how you find this list messy. In general, if lists were inherently messy, we wouldn't feature them. Jesanj (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
If you'd like to create List of occurrences of the term death panel and get it featured, go ahead. Sorry, I'm kidding of course. I just think having the actual list is superfluous: most readers frankly don't care, and those that do can go to the reference provided. The tag (which wasn't added by me) states, "This section is in a list format that may be better presented using prose." That seems like it wouldn't be much better though. Dabnag (talk) 06:29, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Reliable sources care. This was recently in the NYT (p2):

Sarah Palin ... and Representative John A. Boehner of Ohio, the House Republican leader, led the criticism in the summer of 2009. Ms. Palin said “Obama’s death panel” would decide who was worthy of health care. Mr. Boehner, who is in line to become speaker, said, “This provision may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia.” Forced onto the defensive, Mr. Obama said that nothing in the bill would “pull the plug on grandma.”

Besides Boehner, Grassley said "We should not have a government program that determines if you‘re going to pull the plug on grandma." I think the section is in need of expansion, with at least a doubling of prose under Origins. And while I don't think all of the list items need expanding upon, I think it is fairly obvious the list includes points that need expanding upon. Jesanj (talk) 16:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

synthesis? and Nazis

A paragraph was removed with the edit summary "rm synthesis unrelated to 'death panels' term". I am unsure as to why it is a synthesis, or unrelated, however. Here is part of the Orlando Sentinel source that was removed:

Perhaps there are better ways to word the paragraph. But I don't see why the edit summary justifies removing the entire paragraph. Jesanj (talk) 13:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I only have a few minutes right now, but promise to be be back later - I did want to make a quick response here. The whole "Background" section was, and is, problematic - it contains a lot of opinion journalism cited as fact in regards to what Palin's motivations or sources were for coming up with the term. (There's a problematic sentence further down from an Institute that speculates she got the term from some Christian group's talking points.) However, Palin herself has said what led her to coin the term. In her original posting, she cited Thomas Sowell's comments on rationing, mentioned Michele Bachmann, and linked a video of Bachmann reading comments from a piece about Ezekiel Emanuel. A week later, she significantly expanded her explanation, mentioning Section 1233 specifically, citing sources to explain the origin of her position, and once again mentioning Emanuel's positions on health care delivery. As we actually have an explanation of the term's origin published by the person who coined the term, it doesn't seem encyclopedic to include speculation by opinion journalists about Nazis, etc. when common sense that they would really have no way to know for themselves how the phrase originated.
A little off-topic, but here a snippet from a recent TIME article about Palin/death panels that might be worthy of inclusion here:
I hadn't realized that the "death panel" post was her first on Facebook. Also shows that she didn't expect the reaction the term got. Kelly hi! 19:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for the source. My database says the Orlando Sentinel article "E-mails debunk 'death panels'" credits "From News Agencies" as the author. Taking that into account, I doubt your description of "speculation by opinion journalists" applies to this article. Also, I find your statement that common sense suggests journalists (or just opinion journalists?) "would really have no way to know for themselves how [death panels] originated" potentially problematic. To me it sounds like you might want to defer to self-published WP:PRIMARY sources instead of encyclopedically reflecting what reliably published WP:SECONDARY sources say. Jesanj (talk) 14:12, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I still think there is material left to include. It appears the Orlando Sentinel was using a NYT story (already cited in the article) that says
"The specter of government-sponsored, forced euthanasia was raised as early as Nov. 23, just weeks after the election and long before any legislation had been drafted, by an outlet decidedly opposed to Mr. Obama, The Washington Times.
In an editorial, the newspaper reminded its readers of the Aktion T4 program of Nazi Germany in which 'children and adults with disabilities, and anyone anywhere in the Third Reich was subject to execution who was blind, deaf, senile, retarded, or had any significant neurological condition.'"

Jesanj (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Private insurance and HMOs

It seems reasonable to me that private insurance companies and HMOs should also be discussed in terms of death panels. After all, the Obama plan simply takes their practices and adopts the same methodology on a national scale. However, I have found no sources that explicitly make the connection. I'll keep looking. Angel's flight (talk) 19:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Indeed they are discussed by nurses trade unions no less. Maybe you missed this one. But as the edit I added (and which Kelly unjustifiably deleted) shows, so called Obamacare leaves the the death panels of the insurance companies in place!

Now perhaps Kelly can explain why she thinks that just because the section I added about Health Insurance companies denying care by bureaucratic decision, she thinks that this is not a death panel. It meeds the definition of death panel much more closely than any decision of NICE. And IPAB can only determine doctors remuneration under Medicare and no doctor is obliged to sign a Medicare contract. Its entirely voluntary. Furthermore it does not come even close to meeting that definition that we had for "death panel". The insurance company decisions are much more death panel like. And I would remind her that there is a long precedent for references meeting the definition of a topic without actually using the same words. The socialized medicine article is about "publicly funded and/or publicly provided health care". Hardly any of the articles referenced actually use the term "socialized medicine" because, like death panel it is meant to scare people by tapping into un´warranted fears. That does not stop us using references which meet the definition though. As Kelly has issued an unwarranted (IMHO) warning about me at AN/I perhaps she will be kind enough to undo her reversion of that edit or explain in detail why she thinks that Death panel warrants a new rule.--Hauskalainen (talk) 02:18, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

::Kelly deleted it because the source does not mention death panels, and your justification looks like OR. Your Daily Kos source mentions death panels, but it is a problematic source. Please read this. Angel's flight (talk) 02:24, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Maybe this could be incorporated somehow. It mentions insurance stuff and how Olberman has been using the term repeatedly. Jesanj (talk) 04:48, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Palin's use of the word "rationing"

Clearly Palin is using the word rationing in a way that does not meet the normal use of the word.

Rationing happens when a good is distributed at a price level below that which the market would otherwise support. It means for example, to distribute fairly so that everyone gets some of what that they would desire, but not all of it. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ration As when food or petrol (gas) is rationed in wartime. It is usually done to stop people from profiteering from the high prices that market shortages would create. Palin seems to think that the government will set a price for the services of a doctor that will cause some doctors to quit Medicare services. That, if it were true might cause doctor shortages in Medicare similar to that experienced in the Medicaid services in some states with some people being able to find a doctor in their area, but some having difficulty. This would be a problem of UNDERFUNDING leading to SHORTAGES. That is an economic phenomena (similar to that which happened with bread in Russia when it was heavily subsidized). But it is not RATIONING unless the government devises a way to distribute the problem fairly in some way. And as I understand it, the IPAB would not have power to do that.

She is misusing the word RATIONING. I do not think that we need to find a reliable source to state this in the article. It is clear from pure logic that it is true.--Hauskalainen (talk) 03:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Of course it would not be the first time she got her language use muddled. Didn't she once use the "word" refudiate?Hauskalainen (talk) 03:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Reference to David Gratzer

In the article as it currently stands is this text

"NICE has been described by David Gratzer as being comparable to the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) created in the Affordable Care Act.[51]"

I contend that

1. This reference is irrelevant. It does not connect NICE to Death Panel

2. It is actually inaccurate. The IPAB determines doctors (and I presume hospital) remuneration. NICE simply does not. It is not enough for Gratzer to say this for it to be quotable. What is his source for the claim? It cannot be left unchallenged though challenging it will require a long explanation of the what NICE is and a long explanation of what the IPAB is. That would just be mindbogglingly stupid and for very little benefit except to draw attention to Gratzer's propensity to make exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims. The easiest course is to ignore that Gratzer ever said this and delete this sentence.

3. Gratzer is well known for being opaque when talking about the health care systems in Canada (his native country) and even downright dishonest and unabashed when corrected) when talking about the UK. He is NOT a reliable source. If he uses sources that are reliable I think we should consider them, but simply quoting Gratzer is not enough.

The text should be removed.--Hauskalainen (talk) 04:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

The only connection to the subject of this article in the source is the passing remark "some feisty conservatives scored a hit by labeling the commission a “death panel,”"..etc. I agree, it should go. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
..and I removed it. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. Jesanj (talk) 02:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Palin's use of the word "rationing"

Clearly Palin is using the word rationing in a way that does not meet the normal use of the word.

Rationing happens when a good is distributed at a price level below that which the market would otherwise support. It means for example, to distribute fairly so that everyone gets some of what that they would desire, but not all of it. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ration As when food or petrol (gas) is rationed in wartime. It is usually done to stop people from profiteering from the high prices that market shortages would create. Palin seems to think that the government will set a price for the services of a doctor that will cause some doctors to quit Medicare services. That, if it were true might cause doctor shortages in Medicare similar to that experienced in the Medicaid services in some states with some people being able to find a doctor in their area, but some having difficulty. This would be a problem of UNDERFUNDING leading to SHORTAGES. That is an economic phenomena (similar to that which happened with bread in Russia when it was heavily subsidized). But it is not RATIONING unless the government devises a way to distribute the problem fairly in some way. And as I understand it, the IPAB would not have power to do that.

She is misusing the word RATIONING. I do not think that we need to find a reliable source to state this in the article. It is clear from pure logic that it is true.--Hauskalainen (talk) 03:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Of course it would not be the first time she got her language use muddled. Didn't she once use the "word" refudiate?Hauskalainen (talk) 03:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

a WSJ opinion vs WSJ reporting

in the talk archive, there is a mention of a WSJ opinion piece that said the biggest myth about death panels was that it had anything to do with end-of-life counseling, or something like that. if anyone thinks that opinion is worthy of an encyclopedia, they should probably be aware that a WSJ article from December says

Jay Solomon (December 27, 2010). White House Links New End-of-Life Talks to Bush Policy The Wall Street Journal. (And if anyone is reading that quote as if it was news the guidelines were overturned in January.) Jesanj (talk) 22:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Mainstream media's reaction

Howard Kurtz, then with the The Washington Post, characterized the reaction of mainstream U.S. media this way:

I was thinking about quoting this in the article. Though it is a bit long, it provides the best summary I've ever seen. Right now we have Olberman only (WP:UNDUE) thrown in with the experts. I think some section should be created to separate the mainstream media from experts that publish in books/magazines/journal articles. Jesanj (talk) 22:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Stop the deletions

There has been a thread addressing this at Wikipedia:RSN#Was Sarah Palin's "Death Panel" a reference to National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, and one at the administrator noticeboard. You may not remove material from reliable sources because you disagree with it. There were also 2 paragraphs of off-topic material added about NICE, apparently trying to make NICE look nicer. Well, that's why NICE has its own article, and there are links to that article in this one. It looks like the same editor may be responsible for both of these actions. Please cease and desist. Angel's flight (talk) 17:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I also wish you to stop deleting relevant material. If I deleted a reference it was accidental. You deleted material I added to provide balance. Without this, the WP article seems to confirm the misconception that NICE is death panel. My edit shows that the NHS pays for 100% of the cost of cancer drugs that NICE approves for NHS use and something less than 100% in the cases where NICE finds that the drug does not come up to scratch. Last I heard, mot paying 100% of a drug's cost and leaving part for the patient to pay is something that every American health insurer does. If that is rationing, then US medical insurers ration just about every drug they rebate for. Your claim about it being "off-topic" seems totally POV to me. --Hauskalainen (talk) 01:38, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Hauskalainen, please do stop deleting sourced material. The fact that the same reference has been used elsewhere in the section to say something slightly different is not a valid reason for removal.
This article is not about NICE. It would be appropriate to (briefly) add material in defence of NICE if you think this is important. But I do not think it is appropriate to take out information which will help readers to understand. --FormerIP (talk) 02:29, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
You said in your edit that the Sunday Times article was not present and in fact it was. It was not saying "something slightly different" at all. It was the same reason it was there in the first mention . . the drawing of a parallel between Death Panel and NICE. The fact that Oakley went as far as to say that she could read Palin's mind (in effect) was worthy of a mention. I have added the text which adds balance and cut it down to make the point that the effect of a NICE decision is to cut funding below 100% (and that nearly all American insurers do this though its not then called "rationing"). Hauskalainen (talk) 02:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Hausk, the changes you made were highly POV, and you added weasle words. Furthermore this article is not about NICE. Arzel (talk) 02:54, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Hauskalainen, you appear to have made four reverts in the last 24 hours, which is something you are not supposed to do. It would be better, IMO, to discuss what you think the issues are without at the same time making edits to the text. Perhaps then an agreed version can be arrived at without the drama. --FormerIP (talk) 03:34, 18 January 2011 (UTC


(outdent)

@Former IP I agree in principle but what you say applies equally to the persons who are reverting my text which only adds balance.

@ Arzel The article is in part about NICE because of the allegations that are made. Those allegations should be countered to provide a NPOV. I would grant that "death knell" is an unusual turn of words, but then it is being used to counter the allegation that NICE is a "death panel" which is clearly meant to indicate that the decision of the panel means death for the patient. I think this is fair use but I would be willing to amend it,

Here is some of what you deleted. I have numbered the sentences and I invite you to tell us, sentence by sentence, what is "Highly POV" and what constitutes "weasel words" in each.

1. Strictly speaking, a negative NICE decision on a new cancer drug does not deny access to that drug and is not necessarily a death knell for the patient.

2. Patients will have two main choices.

3. They can go outside the NHS for treatment, (paying the full cost themselves or their insurer's co-pays and deductibles if they have private medical insurance).

4. Alternatively they can choose stay in the NHS and co-fund the cost of their treatment, again either out of pocket or through top-up insurance.[1]

5. Private insurance for coverage against having to pay for cancer drugs costs about £50 a year for a 50 year old man (about US$80, or double this for a smoker). [1]

6. The NHS actually funds 100% of the cost of most cancer drugs[2] and the effect of NICE decisions is that this sometimes causes the coverage rate to fall below 100%.

7. Not covering 100% of drug costs is what almost all insurance companies in Palin's America do all the time, although they do not call it rationing.[3]

  1. ^ a b Victory for cancer patients as NHS ban on 'top-up' drugs is lifted The Telegraph, Nov 4, 2008
  2. ^ Free cancer drugs scheme begins BBC Jan 20, 2009
  3. ^ What Is Healthcare Rationing? About.com Quote"Health insurers ration care through co-pays, deductibles and caps."

I look forward to hearing you justify a complete delete which leaves an accusation made with a defense.Hauskalainen (talk) 03:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I seem to have not had a reply to my request above from six days ago so I assume that the person actually cannot justify the deletions that were made. They added balance. I have taken this issue to WP:NPOVN some there have expressed surprise that something so simple has been extended to such a long article. I am of the same opinion. If the article is to be stretched out to cover non death panels such as NICE and IPAB then these have to be defended from that charge. This is what I have been doing. The alternative is to go back and take out that over-reaching extensions and thus avoid a long drawn out article which benefits nobody. So in retrospect I have therefore been WP:BOLD and accepted the change which was suggested by user:Hiberniantears. I am sure that is the most sensible solution.Hauskalainen (talk) 09:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

NICE section - Journalists have sometimes...

The statement "Journalists have sometimes drawn parallels with Palin's "death panels" and Britain's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence or NICE. [46] [47] [48]" seems problematic. The journalists in the Sunday Times (ref 46) and the Telegraph (ref 47) are simply reporting what other people have said in the debates in the US. The journalists aren't drawing parallels. Ref 48 is an opinion piece by Mark Steyn in the National Review and his views should probably be attributed directly to him if they are considered notable enough for inclusion. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:28, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. For what it is worth, I don't see much value in Steyn's derivation of why NICE is "ultimately, a death panel". Seems like we'd have to find a source from someone who was saying no, NICE isn't really a death panel, just to have balance. (I suppose the NICE statistician we cite does something like that going off the abstract, but I don't have access to the full source yet and don't know if I can get it.) Jesanj (talk) 03:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I didn't word the incorporation of that magazine article([2]) well so it was removed. The absract is pretty vague. Anyone have access? Jesanj (talk) 03:10, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Could people please comment here? Thanks. BE——Critical__Talk 04:51, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Rationing of care section

Now that Jesanj has finally admitted that the article went to far by mentioning NICE and IPAB we were still left with the problematic editing which has left a section called "Discussion regarding rationing" stuffed with any quote that the editor was able to find that might suggest that there is some denial of care or rationing in the law. Selective quoting like this is OR and POV. I have deleted them (including one element that argued in the other direction. The simple truth is that which was stated at NPOVN - the article has strayed way beyond where it needs to go.Hauskalainen (talk) 05:55, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Now he added it back with mods. OK let's break it up and look at what is wrong with it.

  1. "Palin's death panel statement alleged that the reform included government rationing of health care.". NO SHE DID NOT! She most emphatically said that she did not want to live in an America" "in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care."
  2. In response, Michael F. Cannon wrote that "[p]aying doctors to help seniors sort out their preferences for end-of-life care is consumer-directed rationing, not bureaucratic rationing".[1] What is wrong with this is not Cannon's accurate statement that but that it is being used to push the reader to an article that does not meet Wikipedia's crtiera for reliable sources. It is FULL OF PARTISAN AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. The linked to article is essentially a puff piece broadly praising Palin and trying to rectify her mistake (of referring to panels before which people will stand to justify their very existence) by singling out the " Independent Medicare Advisory Council" as body that he says WILL ration care. He says the Council "would enhance Medicare's ability to deny care to the elderly and disabled based on government bureaucrats' arbitrary valuations of those patients' lives." He goes on to talk about Comparative Effectiveness Research and how this might affect Medicare coverage. And from there to NICE. (again). As I have said before, working out which medical treatments work and are worth funding and those that do not work and are not worth funding DOES NOT CONSTITUTE RATIONING. It just means getting value for money for the medically insured (be they insured by the government or by a private insurer). If research means that means that Medicare patients can't get Vitamin C to cure their cancer] paid for Medicare, so be it. That is NOT rationing!!!
  3. The Christian Science Monitor reported that some Republicans used the term as a "jumping-off point" to discuss government rationing of health care services, while some liberal groups applied the term to private health insurance companies.[2] Newt Gingrich, a Republican, said that while technically, the proposed legislation (H.R. 3200) did not provide for government rationing of health care, he alleged the legislation was "all but certain to lead to rationing".[3]As I have told you, WP:OPINION tells us that we have to have reliable, independent, experts opinions. New Gingrich is not a reliable, independent expert. He just isn't.
  4. Brendan Nyhan wrote that although "efforts to reduce growth in health care costs under Obama’s plan might lead to more restrictive rationing than already occurs under the current health care system, that hardly justifies suggestions that reform legislation would create a 'death panel' that would deny care to individual seniors or disabled people".[4] ' This does seem to be a scholarly piece in a published book and valid as a source, but I question your choice of quote which seems only to have been chosen for the words "more restrictive rationing". I see no other reason why you picked that sentence. That is distortion and POV pushing by making it seem as though Nyhan believes there is rationing in the legislation when the main thrust of his argument is that there has been more disinformation about the legislation than anything else and death panels is part of that. It is okay in the article but it will sit odd on its own.
  5. Nyhan also sees attempts to label institutions which deny "coverage at a system level for specific treatments or drugs" as attempts to move the goalposts of the debate as Palin's language required that a 'death panel' "would determine whether individual patients receive care based on their 'level of productivity in society'" which "was—and remains—false".[5] This is self published from his blog. Hardly what we at WP regard as a valid source of reliable information. Sure it is probably his opinion and he is a an academic researcher but it would be better to read this in something that is peer reviewed.--Hauskalainen (talk) 10:21, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for raising these specific concerns.
  1. The sentence seems like a fair summary to me. I'd like to see if any others have issues with that sentence.
  2. It is attributed to Cannon, and it is not stated as fact, so I think you're wrong with reliable source concerns. You appear to know the true definition of rationing. I do not. My working definition is that rationing is potentially anything that has a chance to reduce health care costs. (Perhaps this means reducing unnecessary treatments that don't work/aren't desired or by reducing potential over-payments.) It appears that is how the industry views it.[3]
  3. WP:OPINION would tell us that if it were a policy or maybe a guideline, but because it is only an essay, it only suggests.
  4. I agree, it "does seem to be a scholarly piece in a published book and valid as a source" so I think it is fine.
  5. WP:BLOGS says "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." I think "Why the 'Death Panel' Myth Wouldn't Die: Misinformation in the Health Care Reform Debate" puts him over the hurdle. Jesanj (talk) 14:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
User:Hauskalainen, I think you have been disruptive with your recent edits. Granted, I think you have added some good things (I do think we need to have an intro regarding rationing), but what you have written appears to be full of editorializing. And Betsy's statement should go in the origins section. But you have removed sourced material (from Nyhan for example) we were discussing here without addressing my comments above. You allege, in your edit summary, that "Nyhan' s point is that claims of rationing are a distortion .deleted ingenious but wrong to misuse of his words against him". In other words, it appears you are accusing me of POV violations. It doesn't matter if you don't like what Nyhan says, or you think it isn't "true", that doesn't mean you get to remove it at will. Jesanj (talk) 19:09, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
This source[4] offers material/ideas for expansion/reworking the section that could be used to improve the article, in my opinion. Jesanj (talk) 14:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Consensus at AN/I was that this article is already way too long and diverted away from Palin's original allegation that her parents or her disabled son could be made to appear in front of a "death panel" to justify their continued existence based on the panel's view of their worth. The article is a considered piece on the how America pays for health care, and as such it would be a suitable article for Health care reform in the United States and not this article.Hauskalainen (talk) 18:58, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
The title of the article includes "death panelist". I think if it was applied appropriately it would be just fine for the rationing section. Jesanj (talk) 19:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
He was being ironic. I don't think Palin was. Hence its not appropriate.. as is much of what is written in the article space. Which is why so much of it needs to be deleted.Hauskalainen (talk) 19:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
You're making up rules by deeming it inappropriate, in my opinion. And I disagree. Jesanj (talk) 13:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Other death panels

Someone has added a section about "similar death panels" and added SOME but not ALL of the examples from the NPR republished Foriegn Policy article. That article was written in the context of the Palin claims and looked at other panels which allegedly do make life and death decisions.

In this we have the usual suspect (NICE) as well as something about Texas law and assisted suicide programs. NONE of these meet Palin's definition of a death panel (a panel of persons making life and death decisions about a person based on their perceived value or worth to society). But the list was missing the NUMBER ONE death panel which Foreign Policy ranked as 100 out of 100 for meeting what a real death panel does, the panels that determine the execution by the state of perfectly healthy individuals, namely panels determining execution of convicted murderers and traitors. So I added this example in and LO AND BEHOLD, and SURPRISE SURPRISE, two editors here have taken it upon themselves to determine that Foreign Policy got it wrong. Those editors being User:Jesanj andUser:Arzel. And I should not forget the IP user 74.162.157.234 who added the FP article and forget to include the top of the list death panels. Here we have a case of a perfectly legitimate source picking up on a properly contextualized way the issue of death panels and rating various other alleged death panels. I want BOTH User:Jesanj and User:Arzel to explain why they have included NICE (15/100) when they exclude EXECUTION death panels (100/100). This seems like POV editing to me.Hauskalainen (talk) 03:39, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I see no wisdom in reflecting non-health care related items. That doesn't meet the definition of a death panel given by the American Dialect Society. In my opinion, Action T4 is the 100/100. Some sources have referenced it obliquely I am not sure if it has been mentioned straightforward enough in that context to justify mention in that section. Jesanj (talk) 03:52, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
That is YOUR OPINION. It is MY OPINION that [NICE]] does not fit the American Dialect Society definition either, and Foreign Policy magazine would seem to agree with me. But our OPINIONS as editors do not count. Foreign Policy magazine gave us ITS opinion and that was what I added to the article. What's more, I bet nobody who has actually ever used the term "death panel" has ever even heard of the American Dialect Society, let alone bothered to check its definition of a term before using it. Their definition is no more valid than yours or mine because ultimately language is what we use it to mean, which can be all sorts of things. You asked me in that email of yours that "I calm down". I think YOU are the one that needs to calm down. You may think you WP:OWN this article but I can assure you that you do not. I strongly urge you to put the content back. You had no right to delete it and neither did your pal Arzel.
Executions have no relevance to this topic in the least. This article is politicized enough already, there is no valid reason to insert anti-execution positions in the article in order to attack the US legal system. Arzel (talk) 04:23, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
As with Jesanj, that is YOUR OPINION. It counts for NOTHING. I agree that article has been politicized which is why I am trying to counter it! NICE for example is as a body led by dedicated medical professionals of the highest medical and ethical standing. Its main aim is to ensure that the people of Britain get the best possible health care at the best possible price. It does not pull the plug on anyone. Yet somehow people here have edited it IN to the article as if it does. Real death panels which really DO pull the plug on people's lives are excluded! Where is the balance in that? It may have escaped your notice, but Palin's use of the term "death panel" was not intended to make people think about the complex area of medical ethics. EXECUTION was exactly what Palin wanted us to think about when she envisioned her parents and her son standing before some mean nasty people who were going to deprive them of the right to live for being old or disabled. You really cannot be allowed to have your own way the whole time. Wikipedia:I just don't like it comes to mind.Hauskalainen (talk) 04:52, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
? The essential quality of this page regards health care policy. Consider how death panel is defined in the NEJM: it "has come to connote a theoretical body that determines which patients deserve to live when health care is rationed".[5] Consider the American Dialect Society's definition: "A supposed committee of doctors and/or bureaucrats who would decide which patients were allowed to receive treatment, ostensibly leaving the rest to die"[6] If you have any doubt left, please consider Sarah Palin's coining: "The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil." This article in its entirety is about health care policy. As editors, we have the discretion to see that if one source applies the term to capital punishment, we don't have to incorporate that information. FP even acknowledges their sloppiness in their article by stating that they are discussing things that are "something akin to death panels". We shouldn't reflect this sloppiness/inconsistency with the term's use to incorporate non-health care programs. Jesanj (talk) 15:06, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
TNo. The topic of this article is not health care, it is DEATH PANELS. The topic of the FP article as I read it was also about healthcare so it makes a double hit. It was clearly trying to say "hey here is Palin saying nonsense about "death panels" that don't exist and here under out noses (if you are American that is, and I think that is a US journal) the American government IS every year executing people and nobody bashes an eyelid. It was deliberately thought provoking. And as I say, Palin was not initiating a sensible debate about medical ethics but tugging on the emotional impact of envisioning her family standing before the "medical" equivalent of a firing sqad. EXECUTIONS is not far off the mark. So yes, you are wrong and that needs to be put back. You cannot pick and choose what YOU want a death panel to be and ignore all others.Hauskalainen (talk) 18:31, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I didn't say the topic was health care, I said "The essential quality of this page regards health care policy". In other words, the term references health care policy, as does the entire article. You may find FP's use thought provoking, I find it sloppy and disappointing. Unfortunately, no one has written about Action T4 and given it a 100/100. FP admits it is sloppy, IMO, by saying their examples were only "something akin to death panels". In essence, capital punishment has nothing to do with health care policy and it simply doesn't belong here, IMO. Jesanj (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) To correct you, Hauskalainen, the American federal government is not executing people "every year"[7]. Certain state governments execute people every year, but there are also quite a few states that have no death penalty. Ironically, Alaska is one of them. There's a big distinction between "American government" and "state governments". Jus' sayin'... Doc talk 01:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

"The essential quality (of a death panel) is a panel of professionals who decide who lives or dies; health care is incidental." Given that the term arose in a health care reform debate, the only purpose in mentioning the death penalty is to establish the limit (100%) to the quality of being a death panel. Action T4 is perfectly relevant for that purpose, too. -98.69.189.179 (talk) 06:06, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

This is starting to get disruptive. Just because someone thinks that Executions are a form of Death Panels does not make it true. This is opinion clear and simple, and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Hauskalainen, your position here has made it evidently clear you are editing from as an advocate for your political position. You seem to be more intent in promoting your point of view than creating a neutral article. Arzel (talk) 15:46, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

@Arzel

The main rules for editing articles at wikipedia are

  1. maintain a NPOV (which in effect means representing all POV and presenting them all fairly)
  2. content must be veriifiable and published by reliable sources.
  3. No original research
  4. Be bold

(taken from here)

In my opinion, your edit does not meet NPOV because you have removed a POV. It most definitely did come from a reliable source. And the edit you deleted fairly represented the POV and contained no Original Research as far as I can see. And I have been bold in reverting several attempts to lock this information out.

You have justified your delete with reference to four principles

  1. WP:NPOV
  2. WP:UNDUE
  3. WP:ADVOCACY
  4. WP:DISRUPTIVE

but you have failed to explain how these rules apply in the case of the material you deleted. So I ask you now to do so below. When you do so, for each of these please also explain why these override the reasons I have given for THE INCLUSION of the material in the article.

You have explained nothing. Your edits are highly POV in general. You seem to be here as an advocate in favor of NICE and seem to care little what other editors think when they disagree with you. Finally, this article is about the term Death Panel and how it pertains to health care in the US. I can see no reason to include some far-fetched and purely political hyperbole to make a non-existent connection to the US legal system with regards to executions. They have nothing to do with each other and have no place in this article. Just because some person reported some inane comparison does not mean it is automatically granted inclusion here. Now if you could show that many people have also made this comparison there might be some reason to state that some have commented on how executions are annologous to a Death Panel. Even then you would not be able to stray into the purely political aspect of the supposed misdeeds of the US with regards to executions. BTW, NPOV and UNDUE are reason enough, I only point out the other two to illustrate what you appear to be doing here. Arzel (talk) 20:20, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
Arzel maybe you missed my explanations so I have highlighted them in the text above.Hauskalainen (talk) 20:47, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
Hauskalainen, I'm hoping you will listen to what I'm about to say; I could have put this at the WQA but I hope it's not necessary. In the roughly three short years I've been here, I have seen many, many editors with a very similar approach to yours when it comes to dealing with others. The vast majority of them are gone. Using ALLCAPS and bold text (or worse, BOTH) is a tactic that is notoriously unsuccessful for getting a point across, as it just makes people not want to listen to you (see WP:SHOUT). Talking to editors as if they are stupid, ignorant and/or "slow" helps not one tiny bit. Accusing them of sockpuppetry without evidence is even worse. We are all here to work on this encyclopedia, and no one is "always right" or "always wrong". I've been watching the WQA, the AN/I... and I'm seeing several editors disagreeing with you, and your response is usually to reiterate your same points and demand that they understand it. It doesn't work that way. If you want people to listen to you: don't talk down to them, and rationally discuss the issues. You must be willing to compromise your own ideas of what is right for the sake of other people's opinions. You may not believe me, but I do know of what I speak. So please resist the urge to "go on the offensive" on every little point/editor that disagrees with your opinion. Does this sound like reasonable advice? I hope you can move forward more "smoothly" in disputes, both with this one and any future ones, and I mean that. Cheers... Doc talk 23:49, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
You claim that I highlighted the text because I want to shout at Arzel. You are simply wrong in making that assumption. I bolded the text because the editor said "You have explained nothing" so I just thought he must have missed that part of my text where I did explain it, so I highlighted it for him. I am sorry that you think as you do but I cannot be held responsible for your wrong interpretation. Consensus is exactly what I am trying to seek and accusations that I am not working to achieve consensus is just wrong. When I know why Arzel is eliminating what seems to be perfectly crafted text in line with Wikipedia policy I can decide whether to agree with him or not. The text meets the core rules. That article (which I did not find) clearly IS about Palin's death panels and it is being genuine when it draws attention away from the non-existent death panels and towards the real ones. Palin was clearly using the emotion created by the very concept of a death panel in which life and death decisions are to be made and using that to direct the emotion towards the president's policy. The text is in a reliable source, is properly contextualized to Palin's death panels and has been properly cited. These are the three important factors which IMHO make it wrong for the editor to delete the text. He must make a case for why he deletes my text otherwise he is not playing by the rules. He seems to now be distancing himself from his claim of POV by pointing to the fact that I added text which explains HOW NICE gets the rationing tag. That is off the topic of his edit and therefore a distraction. As also are claims that I am not working to resolve differences. I´t was Intermittentgardener and now Arzel who are simply claiming "I am right and you are wrong" and deleting without responding fairly to issues raised at TALK. He claims it is "far-fetched and purely political hyperbole to make a non-existent connection to the US legal system with regards to executions" which is one POV I agree. But it is his POV which carries little weight. The article is from a reliable source and they did make the connection to Palin's death panels. The authors are saying there are no death panels in Obama's health care reforms but there are death panels in the US justice system which leaves the US standing pretty much alone in the rest of the world except for countries such as Saudia Arabia, Iran, China, Japan, and Pakistan, which are the other countries which do have real death panels. A death panel here being a body of people to whom you must go to plead for your very life. That definition of death panel is clearly also what Palin meant and it was the very context in which she used it that made her remarks so controversial. A bit like the more recent use of "blood libel" where she lit another firecracker that set people jumping. All I want from Arzel is a rational explanation for eliminating the POV that there are real death panels though not as in health care where Palin had transplanted them. IMHO Arzel cannot really claim UNDUE as the POV occupies a tiny place in the whole article and at the end of the article. I think it is a very relevant issue which is why I think it should be in the article. Hauskalainen (talk) 06:17, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
"I am sorry that you think as you do but I cannot be held responsible for your wrong interpretation." Par for the course, it would seem. Don't say I didn't warn you, as I have seen this time and time again. Good luck, Mr. Hauskalainen (I'll be keeping "tabs" on this one)... Doc talk 06:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong in what I said. You really did mis.interpret my intent and I really cannot be held responsible for your mis-interpretation. I did not highlight the text until after the other editor claimed that I had explained nothing when in fact I had. But given that the bolding offends you so greatly I have removed it and inserted a note in hidden text in the hope that Arzel reads this note and the diff in this edit in order to know that I had explained the matter.Hauskalainen (talk) 17:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand NPOV. This does not mean that you must include all POV's. Read up on WP:FRINGE for starters. Arzel (talk) 20:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
You mean fringe views such as the existence of death panels in the president's reform proposals, or that NICE is a death panel? Or that IPAB is death panel? Come on, you cannot have one fringe views in here on only one side of the argument. That is POV certainly. Hauskalainen (talk) 07:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Reshaping the article

Clearly this article has gone out of control. Several times recently this article has gone for comment at NPOVN and AN/I and comments have come back about how the article is too long. I agree. The article is diiverging into areas way out of context. There is article needs to be about a half page long and instead its way over that. There are

In my opinion all the article needs to state is the following

  1. what Palin said and when she said it.
  2. how it was that two main "reasons" came to be given for the remarks
    1. The Living Wills dispute in the House Bill
    2. The "utilitarian theory" for allocating scarce health care resources
  3. what the reactions were to the remarks

The article goes into WAY TOO MUCH depth on the final point. Instead of listing all the arguments I suggest we gather a list of the articles containing the remarks and categorize them as (a) those sympathetic to Palin and McCaughy and the idea of an emerging "death panel", (b) those broadly sympathetic to to the alternative view that there is no death panel threat and (c) those that are broadly neutral. We then provide the reader with click through possibilities to get to the articles without trying to summarize them. Those readers who are interested can follow the links. Those that are not interested will not have to wade through the article trying to work out which is what.

If we do this, the article could easily be half its current size.Hauskalainen (talk) 08:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the page needs to be half a page long. And it appears you haven't given any justification for excluding the content that doesn't fit within your model. I think it is ironic that above you argue voiciferously to include capital punishment from the FP piece and now you want to go to the chopping block. I don't mind entertaining the idea of organizing reactions into negative/positive/neutral. It might help. But the article is decently organized already, in my opinion, so I'd like to have a good idea of what it may become/look like before a large reorganization takes place. Jesanj (talk) 13:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
It is ironic only because other editors are being selective about what is and what is not to be taken from certain articles. The justification for cutting content was justified because we have the opinions of several editors who independently came here and said the article was way too long. As it happens I agree with them. I have only had to add to the article to balance out the POV that was expressed in some sections. For example the POV that NICE is death panel like (it is much less death panel like than the decisions made by insurance companies in the U.S. as to what treatments an insurance policy will fund and which they will not). Or that IPAB is a death panel whilst juries listening to cases where the death penalty is a possibility are not death panels. The article could be a lot smaller if these silly extensions were omitted or left to the reader to explore via the references. Hauskalainen (talk) 14:44, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I note again the irony that one minute it is the chopping block, and the next you expand without any sources. Jesanj (talk) 19:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

My edit here was reverted with an explanation that "there appears to be consensus that at least some of this doesn't belong." I searched the talk page in vain for such a consensus. I believe that there is a POV being pushed by one editor, to the effect that references to "death panels" in published sources are presented as references to some sort of mythological creature like a gryphon or unicorn, and have no real-world reference point. This is clearly incorrect. Reliable sources link the term to NICE and IPAB. You may argue that they are incorrect in making the connection, but the fact remains that they did make it, so it belongs in the article. One editor has also argued that rationing takes place every day in the private sector, so therefore it is non-notable if the government also does it. I disagree. Of course, when dealing with for-profit organizations, one should not be surprised if they try to cheat you for greater shareholder return (which is why I personally think that for-profit organizations should be excluded from health care.) However, the citizens have a right to expect better treatment from government agencies that are supposed to represent their best interests.

The material on IPAB and NICE should be restored. The sources have been extensively discussed and they are reliable. If it is not restored, we have an NPOV dispute. Angel's flight (talk) 03:05, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

No. The section claimed that IPAB and NICE are rationing bodies, but they are not rationing bodies in the sense that most people use the word. I am happy to have the discussion again at NPOV. See also the next section which I have restored. It was archived rather unnecessarily as the argument is clearly not over.Hauskalainen (talk) 08:13, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
@[User:Angel's flight]]. Firstly, rationing is not happening. However, let me be generous and suppose that what you what you mean by "rationing" is that the government (in the UK) and the private insurance companies (in the case of the US) are faced with potentially unlimited demands for health care service but have only limited resources from which to finance that. So decisions have to be taken about which procedures to fund and which they do not. Both bodies therefore decide what is in and what is out of their insurance plan. As long as the rules are followed properly and applied fairly to everyone, how is that "cheating"? I can fully see your point about the insurance companies having a conflict of interest (what does not get paid out in benefits is profit for the shareholders), but in the case of NICE and the NHS, government does not "profit". All NHS money is focused one way or another on delivering health services. NICE's job is to ensure it delivers the best bang for the buck (to borrow an American phrase) and therefore it is representing the patients' collective best interests People in the UK know the NHS rules (NICE's guidance is published on the internet) and if you want more than that you buy extra private insurance. There is no cheating going on. I have yet to see an American insurance company publishing its medical funding guidance on the internet so Americans are the ones who it seems face a death lottery. So no rationing and no cheating in the UK at least. Hauskalainen (talk) 08:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Talk:Death_panel#Reference_to_David_Gratzer. There is also the question of due and undue weight. Just because some people out there (fringe?/minority/those with a narrow ideological background) are trying to extend the death panel attack beyond end-of-life care doesn't mean we have to give every mention exhaustive coverage. It is also a matter of due and WP:UNDUE weight. I'm not against a small section with a few sentences in the post 2009 use section. Jesanj (talk) 10:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

American Dialect Society

IntermittentGardener removed the reference from the lead, say that it was "just barely notable enough for inclusion in the article but way too tangential to be in the lead." He was then reverted by Ritterhude, who said that "What the term means is key to the controversy." The problem with that, however, is that the definition provided by the ADS was hidden in the footnote. So, I made the definition visible, and was promptly reverted by Jesanj, who wrote "I've seen a few definitions given don't know why this one sould be the first sentence." So, we should discuss it. I am inclined to side with IntermittentGardener and say take it out of the lead altogether. On the other hand, it seems obviously desirable to begin the article with some sort of definition, rather than a guilt-by-association reference to Sarah Palin. The term and the debate over the term has become a much larger issue than just an anecdote in Ms. Palin's bio. Do we have a more acceptable definition? Angel's flight (talk) 18:34, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I put the ADS definition in the lead. I'm not against that. I don't know what you mean by guilt-by-association. Palin coined the term and in the article we devote a paragraph to her coining by quoting her 2 sentences before, the death panel sentence, and the following sentence. In the lead, for the sake of summary/intro it makes sense to quote the sentence it derived from at the beginning, in my opinion, instead of trying to find/synthesize a definition that captures what Palin said. For what it's worth, I've also seen definitions given in letters to JAMA (cited in the article) and the New England Journal of Medicine source (freely accessible). Jesanj (talk) 19:29, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Three reverts

I've made three reverts to this article today. Can the talk page be used to propose changes perhaps? Jesanj (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is going to argue using talk pages for that purpose, I can assure you. While you didn't violate WP:3RR, there's still a lot of reverting going on on "both sides". Removing tags and referenced material, and "re-arranging" the article in many different ways is something that usually isn't tolerated on most articles. One more AN/I thread concerning this is likely to lead to some sort of sanction on somebody - this would be unfortunate. "Talk it out rather than revert" is the unofficial rule generally cited, and hopefully this can be resolved peacefully. All of you should talk about changes here rather than in lengthy edit summaries. At least edit summaries are being used, of course :> Doc talk 05:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. Additionally, opposition against re-organizing things here without discussion has been mentioned before. Jesanj (talk) 00:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Death panel myth/false claim

There are many reliable sources that use the phrase "death panel myth" (or an equivalent description) including NPR, The New York Times (False 'Death Panel' Rumor), The Washington Independent, New York magazine, The Washington Post, The Forum (author Brendan Nyhan), Democracy Now!, Media Matters, PolitiFact (falsehood), Politico, PBS, Associated Press (debunked), FactCheck (falsehood). Wouldn't it be perfectly WP:NPOV to reflect these characterizations without attribution? I'm thinking we might be misapplying WP:INTEXT. Right now at one spot the article reads "According to a study by Brendan Nyhan published in The Forum of Berkeley Electronic Press, during the period of July 16 through August 14, what he called the "'death panel' myth" was spread by XXXXXXXX." But there are many reliable sources making this characterization. Attributing it to Nyhan here seems POV, as if he is only person using the term. I took some liberty with this edit to use the terms "debunked" and "death panel myth". Jesanj (talk) 23:14, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Colbert Report

I enjoy the Colbert Report, but I have some reservations about using it as a source. It's supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. Angel's flight (talk) 18:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC) sock of banned user   Will Beback  talk  07:56, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Me too. Here's the text: "'the bill's 1000 pages'[34] and it 'has all sorts of panels. You're asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there clearly are people in America who believe in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards'".[35][33] And the Colbert Report is source 34, so citing it only amounts to 4/35 of Gingrich's words. Also, the bill's length and complexity has been cited as a reason for opposition, and those words support Gingrich's other 31 words. I used it with care so I think it is OK. But yeah, if we can find another source to cite that would be better so we could eliminate this concern. Jesanj (talk) 19:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I found a Media Matters clip that covers the exchange in full [8] but on second thought, I'm not sure there is any need to eliminate the Colbert Report source. In my opinion the article does Gingrich's justice. Jesanj (talk) 13:57, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

rationing

it wouldn't be the only time palin misused a word. but we need a source to say "sarah palin misused the word rationing" in order to include it. this "logic" and "common sense" is another's WP:OR and POV/WP:V violation. Jesanj (talk) 12:50, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't quite understand you. Are you referring to this?
At first she let everyone think that this was about enabling patients to understand the options they have at the end of their lives (by paying for counseling sessions). How is this "rationing"? What definition of "rationing" could fit this?
Later IPAB was mentioned, but this is only setting the price to be paid for medical services. It will do what Congress does now. If Palin is right, and this is "rationing" then we should have some reliable reference to say that Congress is a rationing body. I don't think there is any. My wife won't buy milk at 90 cents a litre from Store A when she knows she can get it a 70 cents a litre from store B. I don't think she is "rationing milk" in our household cos she is buying at the best possible price. Sher is actually making a positive contribution to our family's welfare. Its a good thing and not a bad thing. So what definition of "rationing" was Palin attributing to IPAB and how does this apply to what IPAB is lawfully allowed to do?
If nobody can justify it, then she must be using a weird definition of rationing. I agree that it would be useful to have a reliable source that has also noticed this, but maybe it is not essential. We don't have to be POV and use the word "weird" but I think it would not be unreasonable to include a definition of the word rationing and point out that Palin by omission has not explained how the term "rationing" can be applied to advanced care directives funding and/or the board that makes medical pricing decisions. That is all that I am saying.Hauskalainen (talk) 14:23, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
yes, to respond to your first question. and yes, a sentence or two at the beginning of that section would be useful. i'd like for us to use a top notch source for that, like a book/medical source/journal etc. maybe something already exists at healthcare rationing in the US article, i haven't looked. but i'm thinking 1 to 3 sentences max. i think a source is essential as it is a "controversial" subject. (i don't know what your second paragraph dealing with the IPAB means regarding edits you'd like to see at death panel.) thanks. Jesanj (talk) 16:02, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm asking you, as another user of the English language, how it can be that a normal person can regard it as "rationing" to pay doctors to help patients to define in advance the health care treatment they want in case they become unable to communicate with the doctors and nurses treating them? Which definition of "rationing" fits the bill? Or is it that Palin is referring to something else, which other people would not call rationing? Like "paying less for something" as in the case of IPAB. If Palin thinks "paying less for something" is "rationing" then this is a "fringe" definition. And if it is not "paying less for something" or "helping people to get good advice" then what is Palin referring to? It is really important that we know what she means. I have read her remarks now many many times and I fail to see where the "rationing" is going to come from. Wikipedia does not use terms like "ethnic cleansing" as a neutral term for "genocide" so we should not use Palin's term "rationing" if she does not mean what everyone else means by rationing. If she is using the word to mean something else then we have to point that out. Not to do so would be misleading the reader.Hauskalainen (talk) 16:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, this source[9] "Republican Targets Use of Costly Medical Devices" is perfect for incorporating material into the section. To give you my opinion, you should spend more type researching and less time opining! Jesanj (talk) 17:02, 10 February 2011 (UTC)44
Clearly, you cannot explain it either... I don't see how I can get your opinion by researching further. I have been editing articles on and around this topic for about 4 years. I think if there was a logical connection I would have found it by now. And if you cannot explain it and i cannot explain it, then she is clearly not using the word in its normal sense. As for your article, the GOP plan is a good idea (at least incentivizing people to do expensive treatments when cheaper ones work better and are less dangerous for the patient) but I do not see the connection to Palin's Death Panels. methinks you are just trying to change the subject.Hauskalainen (talk) 10:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Clearly, I showed my disinterest in explaining Palin when I started this thread with "it wouldn't be the only time palin misused a word." Whether I think she misused the word or not, I think, is irrelevant, for reasons I've explained above. In short, I don't see how we could change anything in the article even if we both agreed she misused the word. Maybe I'm wrong, but until you can show me an example from a policy or guideline or featured article perhaps, that's my opinion. And on second look, I don't think there is much opportunity for the WSJ source in the rationing section after all. Maybe a political response though. Jesanj (talk) 12:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

(Outdent) The use of words and their meaning is critical. If X reports that Y was found guilty of murdering Z, but in fact the jury found Y guilty of involuntary manslaughter of Z, then we have to explain to the reader that X was not using the term "murder" correctly . Words matter. If Palin said that IPAB will ration care when we know that IPAB is forbidden by law from rationing care, then surely we have to point out the fallacy of the argument: Either Palin must be either lying (if she knows that the law forbids rationing) or else she is ignorant (because perhaps she does not know that the law forbids IPAB from rationing) or else the possibility is that she is fantasizing (that IPAB will break the law or that the law will be changed to allow it to do so). Or she uses the word "rationing" incorrectly. We can no more leave Palin's statement unchallenged than we could leave X's statement unchallenged. To do so would be misleading. Personally I don't think she meant "rationing" but "setting a buying price". IPAB will do that. Either way, setting the buying price is not "rationing". Palin either has a very strange understanding of the word "rationing" or she is lying or fantasizing. I don't see what else it could be.Hauskalainen (talk) 22:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

We need a source that makes the same argument that you did. Without it we cannot include your reasoning, even if it happens to be correct. Do you understand that? Intermittentgardener (talk) 21:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I hope Haus does. It appears to be a matter of policy around here: Wikipedia:Editing_policy#Adding_information_to_Wikipedia. Jesanj (talk) 21:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Palin's use of the word "rationing"

Clearly Palin is using the word rationing in a way that does not meet the normal use of the word.

Rationing happens when a good is distributed at a price level below that which the market would otherwise support. It means for example, to distribute fairly so that everyone gets some of what that they would desire, but not all of it. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ration As when food or petrol (gas) is rationed in wartime. It is usually done to stop people from profiteering from the high prices that market shortages would create. Palin seems to think that the government will set a price for the services of a doctor that will cause some doctors to quit Medicare services. That, if it were true might cause doctor shortages in Medicare similar to that experienced in the Medicaid services in some states with some people being able to find a doctor in their area, but some having difficulty. This would be a problem of UNDERFUNDING leading to SHORTAGES. That is an economic phenomena (similar to that which happened with bread in Russia when it was heavily subsidized). But it is not RATIONING unless the government devises a way to distribute the problem fairly in some way. And as I understand it, the IPAB would not have power to do that.

She is misusing the word RATIONING. I do not think that we need to find a reliable source to state this in the article. It is clear from pure logic that it is true.--Hauskalainen (talk) 03:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Of course it would not be the first time she got her language use muddled. Didn't she once use the "word" refudiate?Hauskalainen (talk) 03:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference AUTOREF20 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference AUTOREF18 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Newt was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference Nyhan was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Brendan Nyhan. Continuing efforts to justify false "death panels" claim August 17, 2010. Accessed January 15, 2011.
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