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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Flyer22 Frozen (talk | contribs) at 22:00, 14 November 2017 (→Child sexual abuse vs. child molestation again: Other WikiProjects too.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Child sexual abuse vs. child molestation again

As seen here, here, here and here, Staszek Lem is distinguishing child sexual abuse from child molestation at both the Statutory rape article and this article, without any sources supporting such a distinction. The source Staszek Lem is using to make this distinction is a source I recently used at the Statutory rape article. The quote states the following: "Child molestation: A form of sexual assault committed against a child below a certain age. That age is usually set between 12 and 14 since such ages correspond to the onset of puberty, thereby differentiating the offense from statutory rapes (against post-pubescent adolescents) and various degrees of sexual assaults/sexual batteries against victims over the age of consent for sex." It states nothing about child sexual abuse being broader or different than child molestation. Last year, the fact that child sexual abuse and child molestation are synonyms was discussed; see Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 9#Child sexual abuse is not the same as molestation. Consensus, per the literature, is that they are indeed synonyms.

For input, I am pinging Legitimus and KateWishing, who took part in that previous discussion and are as knowledgeable as I am on the topic of child sexual abuse, statutory rape and pedophilia. Also pinging Herostratus, who sometimes helps with such topics, and Fyddlestix, who is involved in a discussion at Talk:Rape myth concerning child sexual abuse, where Staszek Lem started to focus on the topic. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:14, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It states nothing about child sexual abuse being broader or different than child molestation Does my text say so? Anyway, I hold that "Sexual abuse" and "sexual assault" is not one and the same. (Just as a violent rape against a minor is not a statutory rape. The difference is violence.) If you have legal sources which define showing lewd pictures to a minor as "molestation", I have no objections you add add the refs to the article and I will be happy to self-revert. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Further, this article lists child grooming as a form of child sexual abuse. Are there any refs which describe grooming as a form of molestation? Whereas I see sources which distinguish the concepts ("grooming leads to molestation") Staszek Lem (talk) 21:37, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'll need to look this up a bit before I'm 100% confident taking a position on the exact relationship between molestation and abuse, but: edits like this and this just seem to invite confusion to me: they make an unclear distinction between abuse and molestation without clearly defining (or sourcing) what that distinction is, and they rely on a third term (sexual assault) to do that without defining what that means either. This just seems likely to confuse readers imo. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:02, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
without defining what that means Huh? Sexual assault. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:26, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that most of the time there was no distinction. Only recently more forms of subtle child abuse were brought to the attention of the law. I remember reading a 19th century novel which included an old fart who hired a young girl to read books for him under the pretense of poor eyesight and who selected the books which ..er.. you know which. It would have been an absurd idea to sue him for groming at there times. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:36, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You asked does your text state anything about child sexual abuse being broader or different than child molestation. It is what you are claiming regardless, and you are using that claim to keep the lead of the Statutory rape article from stating "child sexual abuse" in its final paragraph and the lead of the Child sexual abuse article from stating "or child molestation." With this edit, you stated, "child sexual abuse is a wider concept." With this edit, you stated, "No. Our article was sloppy in conflating the terms. I fixed it already." With this edit, you stated, "My sources are in wikilinked articles, with full quotation from the source." It's actually one source -- a source I provided for a different article -- and it does not support your view. And with this edit, you stated, "sexual abuse and molestation are not exact synonyms." Disregarding how much of a synonym sexual abuse is to molestation, child sexual abuse and child molestation are undoubtedly synonyms, only rarely being distinguished. Regarding your statement that "Only recently more forms of subtle child abuse were brought to the attention of the law.", the narrow definition of child molestation -- using the term to exclude sexual penetration -- was used in the past. See Legitimus's comment in the previous discussion. Like this 2000 "The Epidemic of Rape and Child Sexual Abuse in the United States" source, from Sage Publications, page 199, states, Kessler et al. used that narrow definition in 1995. The source also notes the problems with that very narrow definition. It is not a definition that is generally used today. And child grooming has been a matter of attention for scholars for years; not really recently, depending on how recently is being defined.
Given the sources in the Child sexual abuse article, which use the terms child sexual abuse and child molestation to mean the same thing, the WP:ONUS is not on me to prove my case that child sexual abuse and child molestation commonly mean the same thing. And there is no requirement that my sources be "legal sources." Either way, the following sources are clear about what I've argued:
Sources using child sexual abuse and child molestation to mean the same thing, child molestation to mean the sexual abuse of children, or what defining the sexual abuse of children entails.

1. This 1995 "Rape of the Innocent: Understanding and Preventing Child Sexual Abuse" source, from Taylor & Francis, page 3, states, "A partial list of the phrases used to describe child sexual abuse is: sexual victimization, sexual exploitation, sexual assault, sexual misuse, child molestation, sexual maltreatment, and child rape (Haugaard & Reppucci, 1988; Russell, 1983)." It also notes that "Atteberry-Bennet and Reppucci (1986) stated, 'A review of the literature suggests that total agreement of the definition of child sexual abuse, even in the cases where sexual intercourse has taken place between an adult and child, does not exist" (p. 1). However, the source is very old.

2. This 2000 "CliffsQuickReview Sociology" source, from Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, page 79, states, "One emotionally damaging form of child abuse is child sexual abuse. Also known as child molestation, child sexual abuse occurs when a teenager or adult entices or forces a child to participate in sexual activity. [...] Ranging from simple touching to bodily penetration, child sexual abuse is culturally forbidden in most parts of the world, and is illegal everywhere in the United States."

3. This 2002 "Encyclopedia of Crime and Punishment, Volume 1" source, from Sage Publications, page 202, states, "While legal and scholarly definitions of child sexual abuse differ, the most common definition of this kind of abuse is any sexual activity involving a child where consent is not or cannot be given. Sexual contact between an adult and a minor child, as well as that between an older and a younger child, are both examples of sexual abuse."

4. This 2009 "Principles and Practice of Child and Adolescent Forensic Mental Health" source, from American Psychiatric Pub, page 229, states, "Child sexual abuse [CSA] describes a wide range of acts. In general, CSA is the use of a child as an object of sexual gratification for an adult or a significantly older minor. [...] CSA is usually defined as contact sexual abuse or noncontact sexual abuse. Contact sexual abuse involves touching of the sexual areas of either the child's body or the perpetrator's body. Noncontact sexual abuse may include exhibitionism, voyeurism, or the child's involvement in the production of pornography. The intent of the act must be demonstrated to be sexual stimulation."

5. This 2011 "The Handy Psychology Answer Book", from Visible Ink Press, page 416, states, "Sexual abuse of children involves inappropriate sexual contact between a child an adult or a much older child. [...] Sexual abuse ranges from exposure of genitals to fondling of body parts to direct genital contact and, ultimately, to anal or vaginal intercourse. [...] The vast majority of incidents of child molestation are not violent. Most child molesters use manipulation or seduction to gain access to their victims. A sizeable number of child molesters use just enough force to accomplish their goal. Only a small percentage is truly violent. These extreme cases attract the most media attention, however, which unfortunately gives the public a distorted sense of the problem of child sexual abuse." The source clearly defines sexual abuse of children beyond fondling and is using the terms child molestation and child sexual abuse to mean the same thing.

6. This 2012 "Encyclopedia of Trauma: An Interdisciplinary Guide" source, from Sage Publications, page 823, states, "Molestation is described as sexual contact that occurs between strangers or distant acquaintances. It is often perpetrated on children, and it perpetrated on both girls and boys. [...] Molestation often involves rape where the child is manipulated or coerced into sexual behaviors, including intercourse. [...] Abusive actions that fall under the definition of molestation include fondling, mutual masturbation, sodomy, intercourse, child pornography and child prostitution. When the word molestation is used, it is often preceded by the word child. Molestation occurs when someone, an adult or another child, has any sexual contact with another individual. [...] It is a form of sexual assault and sexual abuse."

7. This 2016 "Practical Aspects of Rape Investigation: A Multidisciplinary Approach, Fifth Edition" source, from CRC Press, page 308, states, "Those who sexually victimize children have historically been referred to as molesters and those who sexually victimize adults as rapists. [...] [ Molest ] has increasingly come to convey some type of sexual activity with children. [...] Child molestation is also frequently referred to as child sexual abuse, especially when the offender is a family member, or sexual exploitation of children, especially when the offender is not a family member such as an acquaintance."

8. The World Health Organization (WHO) states, "Child sexual abuse is the involvement of a child in sexual activity that he or she does not fully comprehend, is unable to give informed consent to, or for which the child is not developmentally prepared and cannot give consent, or that violates the laws or social taboos of society. [...] This may include but is not limited to: the inducement or coercion of a child to engage in any unlawful sexual activity; the exploitative use of a child in prostitution or other unlawful sexual practices; the exploitative use of children in pornographic performance and materials. [...] Physical force/violence is very rarely used; rather the perpetrator tries to manipulate the child’s trust and hide the abuse. The perpetrator is typically a known and trusted caregiver. Child sexual abuse often occurs over many weeks or even years. The sexual abuse of children frequently occurs as repeated episodes that become more invasive with time. Perpetrators usually engage the child in a gradual process of sexualizing the relationship over time (i.e. grooming). Incest/intrafamilial abuse accounts for about one third of all child sexual abuse cases."

So, given that both the terms child sexual abuse and child molestation can include any sexual activity between an adult and a child or a significantly older minor and a child, including child pornography, how are you distinguishing the terms, and what sources do you have supporting your claims? Unless you were thinking that child molestation only covers fondling (which is not the case, per the sources I've provided above and some sources in the Child sexual abuse article), you seem to be distinguishing the terms because you don't view child grooming or exposing a child to sexual images for the purpose of sexual stimulation (which is a form of child grooming) to be child molestation, but you do consider those things to be child sexual abuse. The thing is that these two terms (child sexual abuse and child molestation) are usually used interchangeably (among both the general public and researchers on the topic). Your sentence of "A sexual assault against a child is called child molestation." currently in the lead of the article makes it seem as though child molestation is not also "a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation." The sources above show that this is not true. Furthermore, child molesters are sometimes referred to as "groomers," as is clear by this 2014 "The Socially Skilled Child Molester: Differentiating the Guilty from the Falsely Accused" source, from Routledge, page 11. Yes, child grooming is about preparing children for child sexual abuse/molestation, but child grooming also falls under the category of child sexual abuse, which commonly means the same thing as child molestation. And, occasionally, definitions of child grooming may include a child being groomed through molestation, which, from what I've seen, covers so-called "light fondling" (or subtle fondling). All that stated, if it's not clear, per the child grooming/"showing sexual imagery to children for sexual stimulation" part, I now understand why you are differentiating between child sexual abuse and child molestation. And just to be clear, that "old fart who hired a young girl to read books for him under the pretense of poor eyesight and who selected the books which ..er.. you know which" was child grooming if it was done to prepare the girl for child sexual abuse. And either way, depending on the girl's age and legal issues for that area, it falls under the category of child sexual abuse. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:18, 14 November 2017 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:06, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Per my arguments and the sources above, you could at least change the lead to following: "Child sexual abuse, also commonly known as child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation." Or: "Child sexual abuse, sometimes known as child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation." But it's significantly more than a "sometimes" matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:05, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for understanding my point. However; Point 1: I did not edit the article to say they are different; I am just arguing this in talk page.
Point 2: Show me the references which say they are the same. All above arguments are just your reasoning, may be better than mine, but still, it is a Wikipedian's opinion. The sources you cited are IMO not supportive of your opinion. See eg your cite #6. It does not list grooming as molestation. It also explicitly says "It [molestation] is a form of sexual assault and sexual abuse." -- one is a form of another, ie., not identical; Your cite #7 says " Child molestation is also frequently referred to as child sexual abuse, especially when the offender is a family member, or sexual exploitation of children", i.e., molestation and abuse are not exact synonyms, and so on.
Point 3 (minor): was child grooming if it was done to prepare the girl for child sexual abuse. - No. Our article says grooming is abuse.
Point 4 (major): also commonly known - There is no deadline; I do agree that the terms have been used interchangeably. This may happen for three reasons: they are identical; they are nearly identical so that people don't bother to differentiate; they are nearly identical so that people are sloppy to differentiate. In addition, they may be nearly identical simply because the milder cases of non-explicit child abuse are severely underreported. Also, as I said, in the past the threshold of criminalization was much lower. Because of all this the answer must be based on citing sources, not on our logic. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:25, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If it's too WP:Too long; didn't read, then don't argue with no sources to back up your separation of the terms. Don't go on about irrelevant stuff written in a novel. Don't go on speculation such as "maybes" and "what ifs," as you are doing now. As many know, I argue with sources, and I am well-versed on the topic of child sexual abuse and related topics. When it comes to literature matters, I have no patience for those arguing without sources. I do not like to spend hours and hours or weeks or months arguing the same thing. So the "there is no deadline" argument is not something I particularly care for in this case. And that is why I will be asking WP:Med, WP:Law and WP:Crime for further input. If that is not fruitful, I will be jumping straight to a WP:RfC.
You stated, "Show me the references which say they are the same." There is nothing clearer than "this 2000 "CliffsQuickReview Sociology" source, from Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, page 79, stating, "One emotionally damaging form of child abuse is child sexual abuse. Also known as child molestation, child sexual abuse occurs when a teenager or adult entices or forces a child to participate in sexual activity. [...] Ranging from simple touching to bodily penetration, child sexual abuse is culturally forbidden in most parts of the world, and is illegal everywhere in the United States." Or this 2016 "Practical Aspects of Rape Investigation: A Multidisciplinary Approach, Fifth Edition" source, from CRC Press, page 308, stating, "Child molestation is also frequently referred to as child sexual abuse, especially when the offender is a family member, or sexual exploitation of children, especially when the offender is not a family member such as an acquaintance." And I will be using these two sources to re-add "or child molestation," or something similar, to the lead, per my, Fyddlestix's and KateWishing's arguments, and the sources I cited above, unless you can show with reliable scholarly sources that child sexual abuse and child molestation are two different things. Your sources should explicitly state that they are. What I stated above is not simply "my reasoning." The sources show that child sexual abuse and child molestation are defined the same way, and I provided two sources so far stating "also known as" and "also frequently referred to as." Neither source states that "also known as" and "also frequently referred to as" are incorrect descriptions. Your "one is a form of another, ie., not identical" comment makes no sense. Child sexual abuse is a form of sexual abuse. So is child molestation since it means the same thing as child sexual abuse. Of course, it's not identical to sexual abuse; it's a subset of sexual abuse.
The literature typically treats child sexual abuse and child molestation as the same thing and uses the words interchangeably when discussing the topic, as various reliable sources show. It's rare that the two terms are differentiated, and it's almost always only in old literature that they are differentiated. And when they are differentiated, it's usually only in that child molestation refers to fondling, and especially between family members. In this rare and outdated case, child molestation still falls under child sexual abuse. You are asking me to show that child molestation is discussed in the context sexual images or child grooming, but I don't see that I need to. If it's important enough to mention in the lead that child molestation is sometimes differentiated from child sexual abuse in the case of child grooming, then you should provide reliable scholarly sources explicitly stating this. And not sources such as oprah.com. Otherwise, per WP:Due, definitional issues belong in a "Definitions" or "Terminology" section, just like we do with the Domestic violence article and similar articles, where terms usually mean the same thing but are occasionally distinguished. As for your argument about the girl, do stop referring to what Wikipedia articles state as a reference. Either way, that article currently states that "child grooming is befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a child, and sometimes the family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the object of sexual abuse." The sexual abuse part is pipelinked to this article -- Child sexual abuse. Many reliable sources are clear that child grooming is done with the intent of child sexual abuse. I stated that the old man showing the girl sexual images was child grooming if it was done to prepare the girl for child sexual abuse. I was not denying that child grooming is sexual abuse. I've stated above that child grooming falls under child sexual abuse. It's still the case that "child grooming" and "child sexual abuse" do not mean the same exact thing, which is why there are two separate articles for them. They far more distinguished than "child sexual abuse and "child molestation" are. While "child grooming" falls under "child sexual abuse," "child molestation" means the same thing as child sexual abuse, and you have provided no sources showing otherwise. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:48, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've never seen any reliable source insist on a difference between "child sexual abuse" and "child molestation". There might be a fuzzy difference in nuance between the two terms that will vary between speakers, but Flyer's sources and others show that "child molestation" can be applied even to non-contact acts. Another example is in the Georgia criminal code; it defines "child molestation" like so:
"A person commits the offense of child molestation when such person: (1) Does any immoral or indecent act to or in the presence of or with any child under the age of 16 years with the intent to arouse or satisfy the sexual desires of either the child or the person; or (2) By means of an electronic device, transmits images of a person engaging in, inducing, or otherwise participating in any immoral or indecent act to a child under the age of 16 years with the intent to arouse or satisfy the sexual desires of either the child or the person."
Thus, "showing sexual imagery to children for sexual stimulation" is child molestation under the Georgia code. Our article should not imply there is a hard distinction here without strong sources directly stating so. (The alternatives Flyer mentioned would also be fine.) KateWishing (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. If someone wants to assert that "abuse" and "molestation" are technically different, it is up to them to first produce good sources which show the point without walls of text. Johnuniq (talk) 21:59, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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