Talk:Paul Hartal

Citing sources

The Paul Hartal article does cite its sources. Take a look at the first two external links and you will see every fact that is in the article has been verified there. Thus I have removed the sources tag you put on the article. Hu 09:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC) (Copied from his talk page by Fyslee)

External links provide more information not included in the article and are not considered as real references:

• "Wikipedia articles can often be improved by providing links to web pages outside Wikipedia which contain information that can't or shouldn't be added to the article. These links belong in an External links section near the bottom of the article." - WP:EL

• "Sites that have been used as references in the creation of an article should be linked to in a references section, not an external links section. See Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Citing sources for specific formatting and linking guidelines for citations." [1] (added emphasis - Fyslee)

Since you are (perfectly appropriately) using them as sources for the article, then they should be included as embedded links (with the appropriate quotes, pages, and URLs) and formatted as real references. This has the added advantage of "upgrading" the links to article content rather than mere external links. This eliminates them from the External links and makes room for other external links so that section doesn't get too long.

Right now the article doesn't even have a references section. It is not the duty of readers to search through the contents of external links to verify that the article content is reliable. It is the duty of editors to provide immediately and easily verifiable proof of the reliability of their additions by providing referenced proof right at the spot in the article where it is needed and relevant. -- Fyslee 11:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC) (Copied from his talk page by Fyslee)

The External links on this article contain A) information that was used in the article and B) more information that can't or shouldn't be added to this article. The URLs link directly to the web page needed in each case, so there is no more or less searching through the external links whether they were standard footnote references, standard reference links or standard external links. Since it will ease your concern, I will move a couple of the external links into a references section. I think your logic is a bit flawed, since so long as the URLs are included in the article, users have to search through external pages anyway to verify the article content is valid, regardless of whether those pages are linked in footnotes, references, or external links. I am well aware of how to use footnotes, where appropriate. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill and I suggest that there are hundreds of thousands of articles more deserving of your scrutiny and attention than this one which is well researched and verified and referenced. Hu 13:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the one who makes the Wikipedia guidelines, I just follow them as best I can. That's what I'm suggesting you do. Right now it's not a big problem because there is so little content, but when the article gets larger it could be a problem. (Paul Hartal is a controversial person who libels Stephen Barrett, so this article may get very interesting!) That's why it is helpful if one follows the guidelines right from the beginning. -- Fyslee 15:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Hartal objects

I strongly protest your uncalled-for personal attack, Fyslee. I am not in the habit of making any libelous comments. -- Paul Hartal 17:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a statement of fact for information purposes, so not a personal attack. (Hu needed to know why this article would grow.)

To make sure we don't misunderstand each other, I don't make idle statements about things I don't understand, and I'll make my case by starting with your own edits here. Right here you have provided a good definition of libel, so you can't claim ignorance as to its meaning:

• The Oxford Dictionary of Current English defines libel as "published false statement damaging to person's reputation, act of publishing it; false defamatory statement or representation". -- Paul Hartal 19:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC) [2]

The specific libel I am referring to above is the one where you write that Stephen Barrett "lost his medical license," which is found in this article:

• DEBUNKING "QUACKWATCH": Why the Medical Establishment Attacks Columbia Pacific University

That article from 2001 (which contains other examples of false statements and straw man attacks) is still (2006) accessible on the http://www.altcpualumni.org/ website right here. It is also quoted other places on the internet.

You know perfectly well that it's not true, as evidenced by a Dec. 14, 2001 version you have chosen not to use. [3] There you write:

• " Stephen Barrett, a former medical doctor who states his current licence status as "retired",..."

Yet you have later chosen to use your first (libelous) version. Thus you have provided evidence that you are acting against better knowledge (which in a court of law would be proof of bad faith). Not a good thing!

He never "lost" it in any sense of the word. He merely retired. He was never disciplined, delicensed, disbarred, criticized, censured, punished, forced to retire, forced to give up his license, or anything even resembling it. He simply retired and allowed his license to go into inactive status, just like many other MDs do when they retire from active practice.

So, according to the definition you provided, your statement that he "lost his medical license" is clearly libelous:

• It is a "published false statement", and you know it, so you have uttered and written it in bad faith. You can't claim ignorance or good faith.

• It is obviously designed (and the rest of your article backs this up) to be "damaging to [his] reputation."

All of this is abundantly well documented and in a safe place for future use if necessary. I would suggest you immediately do two things:

• Publish a retraction on the CPU website, and send it to Stephen Barrett at sbinfo AT quackwatch DOT com. In that retraction you might do what you can to save your skin by documenting where you got the idea that he had lost his license. If you have been deceived by someone about that matter, then explain how and by whom you were deceived.

• Revise that article and remove that and other libelous statements, including your straw man attacks. When you're done it shouldn't even remotely smell like anything designed to damage his reputation! You can write to me [4] and get details of the other matters to be revised.

You claim that you are "not in the habit of making any libelous comments." I really don't know if it's a "habit" -- I only know what you have written on the internet and here at Wikipedia. That's pretty easy to document, and it certainly fits the definition of libel you provided above.

You also promote your critical article on the following sites (and get severely criticized for your attempted defense of your dubious CPU degree):

• http://www.badscience.net/?p=226
• http://www.vote29.com/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=322
• http://raw360.com/item/1456

Another one of your distasteful tricks:

Barrett is and always will be an MD, so your disparaging use of "Dr." Barrett (you put it in quotes) and "Mr. Barrett" say more about you than about him. He has every right to be called Dr. Barrett and deserves that respect. If anyone here deserves to have their "Dr." put in quotation marks it is you, as your so-called "Ph.D" is from a dubious diploma mill, while his is a genuine medical degree.

Another false matter you have written in your article:

• Dated December 22, 1999, the Harvard affiliated Massachusetts General Hospital's Neurology Web Forum published on the Internet an article under the title :"PAC" Money for "quackwatch". It reveals that "the FDA and the Pharmaceutical Advertising Counsel ("PAC"), which represents some 35 major drug companies, have formed and co-founded a corporation under a joint letterhead, calling itself the National Council Against Health Fraud ("NCAHF")." Stephen Barrett, MD, who publishes "Quackwatch" on line, William Jarvis, MD, and others, are paid by PAC " to publicly discredit as unscientific or unknown any of all viable herbs, vitamins, homeopathic remedies or non-allopathic therapies, particularly those that are proven to have the most promise and present the greatest threat to the PAC members".

I'll let Barrett speak for himself on this one (which he did here at Wikipedia):

• Dr. Barrett responds: The "article" to which you refer was a posting to a bulletin board. The statement is a pack of lies. Neither Quackwatch not NCAHF has ever received any money from the FDA or the Pharmaceutical Advertising Council (PAC). My only connection with the PAC was as a reviewer of a grant request that it had made to the FDA in the 1980s. I recommended that the FDA not give the grant because members of the PAC had engaged in false advertising. In a recent deposition, Tim Bolen, one of the people I am suing for libel, admitted that his statements that Quackbusters are directed and funded by a drug-industry entity was something he made up. When asked to identify the entity, he replied that there was none. Sbinfo 01:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC) [5]

The discussion can be found here: FDA and PAC: The Answer to Quackwatch's Funding?

Your mention of the posting on the BraingTalk forum is quite disingenuous. It's far from an "article." Anyone can post to a web forum with totally unreliable information, lies, libel, gossip, etc.. There is absolutely no evidence for any of the false claims made in that "pack of lies."

Well, that's enough for now. How are you going to correct your serious breach of ethics and common decency? -- Fyslee 15:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

A Refutation of Libellous and False Claims

Fyslee, I was under the impression at first that this entry is about my work as an artist and poet. It seems that you are unable to make any constructively relevant analysis in this regard and , instead, use Wikipedia as an extended forum for “Quackwatch”. As to your claims, let me explain that for my part the status of Dr. Stephen Barrett’s medical license is not an issue. Since I respect the facts and gladly admit an error, I corrected my article years ago, stating that Stephen Barrett, MD, is a “retired” psychiatrist. Yet even to say that Dr. Barrett “lost” his medical license is not libellous because I did not say that he did something illegal. A Webster's Dictionary connotes the verb lose as “to come to be without”, to give up”, “to cease to have”, in addition to other meanings. Thus, to say that a person "lost" his license can simply mean that he gave it up and ceased to have it. Period. But again, Barrett’s license is irrelevant in the context of my paper. Unfortunately, I have no control over the Internet and the earlier version of the article is also displayed on the web. I am sorry that I cannot live up to your expectation and show sycophantic, uncritical admiration for the Quackwatch leader. Mind you, Stephen Barrett’s medical degree does not give him the right to pose as the only legitimate spokesman of truth. His organization suppresses the freedom of information and has unfairly blacklisted thousands of honest professionals [6], [7], including professors of medicine James S. Gordon, MD, [8] and Dean Ornish, MD, [9], as well as the Nobel laureate chemist Linus Pauling, who also won the Nobel Prize for peace. I refer to Dr. Barrett in my article also as Mr. Barrett, and “Dr” Barrett in order to remind him that he is a citizen, a member of society and not above it. Moreover, the word “doctor” means teacher, and his teachings not only harm public interests but are contrary to the principles of advancing science and promoting health [10], [11], [12].

There is no doubt about it that Quackwatch represents the interests of orthodox allopathic medicine and of the pharmaceutical industry. At the same time, if ‘”PAC” Money for “Quackwatch”’ published by a Harvard affiliated web forum, is not true then it is libellous. However, I never said that it is true, just that this piece is published on the Internet. Complaints about this source should be made to Harvard, not to this author [13]. To sum it up, you misread my article and deny my right to disagree with Dr. Barrett. There is nothing libellous in it and I don’t see any justification for your accusations. You demand respect for one academic degree but show disrespect and bully another one, although the latter is also legal, valid, and earned through hard and serious work. You call Columbia Pacific University (CPU), [14], [15], [16],[17],[18],[19],[20], [21],[22], a “diploma mill”, which is libellous. So, please don't lecture me about "breach of ethics and common decency". CPU was State accredited (approved) and the court ruled that its degrees are legal and valid. My doctoral dissertation on The Interface Dynamics of Art and Science has been critically acclaimed also in book form as The Brush and the Compass (Lanham, MD: University Press of America [23], 1988, 341 pages), studied and taught at a number of universities in North America as well as overseas [24], [25], [26], [27], [28].

Besides, maybe I disappoint you, but I really don’t care if you recognize my PhD or not. I am not requesting you even to recognize my high school diploma or my Master’s from Concordia University of Montreal. Nevertheless, for other readers who are more open-minded than you, I would like to quote from a document concerning The Brush and the Compass. Dated August 5, 1986, and signed by James E. Lyons [29], Publisher of University Press of America, the Reader’s Report, among other things, says: “Contrary to the popular belief, promulgated by C.P. Snow and others, the author believes that science and art are not distant polarities, but rather complementary symbolic systems through which humanity structures and interprets reality…Very few writers are capable of writing on art and science with this amount of depth and grace. The author demonstrates a thorough acquaintance in the disciplines of mathematics, physics, computers, painting, philosophy, and psychology…Most definitely this work is a significant contribution, namely to the history of ideas, a discipline which Arthur Lovejoy made famous…Because of sophistication is required of an author in more than one discipline, there is not much being written in the history of ideas in today’s specialized age, an age in which more than any other, this kind of thing is required…Despite the fact that this work seems to have been a Ph.D. dissertation…it shows a high degree of learning and creative thinking, going far beyond the normal expectations of dissertations in general”. I would like to add that I had researched for years the material used in the writing of The Brush and the Compass. In the course of the study I collaborated with renowned artists, writers, mathematicians and scientists, including Bernard Grad, P.R. Halmos, J.G. Kemeny, Arthur Koestler, Sir Rudolf Pearls, Victor Weisskopf, as well as Nobel Prize laureates in physics Aage Bohr and Sir Nevill Mott.

Paul Hartal 23:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Above you write:

• "Since I respect the facts and gladly admit an error, I corrected my article years ago, stating that Stephen Barrett, MD, is a “retired” psychiatrist."

Why then isn't that version the one you list on the CPU alumni website? You can change that matter, since the revised version is already there, but not linked for the public to see. -- Fyslee 21:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem, I am going to ask Earon Kavanagh to make the change on the CPU alumni website,

Paul Hartal 04:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. My hat off to you. -- Fyslee 08:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

When is he going to make the change? Your article is linked from this page. -- Fyslee 21:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

An exchange of emails with Earon Kavanagh reveals that there are actually two articles on the CPU website, causing confusion. This is not intentional at all but a programming error resulting from an operating system crash that occurred after December 14, 2001. In the words of Earon: ”I made the change this morning, yet the old one continues to show up. This can take extraordinary periods of troubleshoot time, so I will have to get back to it and troubleshoot this weekend.”

Paul Hartal 20:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see that he has removed the offending version from the site's cache and now links to the better one. -- Fyslee 21:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Merged articles

The content of the Lyco art article is now merged into the Paul Hartal article. It is not notable enough to stand on its own, but can certainly be used in the Hartal article. I hope that this will satisfy Hartal. -- Fyslee 17:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Lyco Art as an Art Trend

Lyco Art (Lyrical Conceptualism) is a theory of art, as well as an art trend. When I say this, some people frown. How can you call Lyco Art an art trend, they ask, when it is just an art idea of a lonely artist? [30], [31].

Extended content

Now let me pose a question to you. How many artists are needed for the creation of a movement? Art currents, after all, are not political parties with thousands or millions of members. The Neo-Impressionist trend of Pointillism, or Divisionism, for example, is basically associated with the name of Georges Seurat, although another French painter, Paul Signac, worked closely with Seurat on the development of Pointillism. Similarly,the art movement of Neo-Plasticism, or De Stijl was started by Piet Mondrian, a very loose organization held together by Theo van Doesburg. Now, please open on page 151 the sixth edition of Artists/USA 1979-80, edited by Howard Jeffries, ISBN 0-912916-06-0. Here, the visual artist and mathematician Kara Szathmary [32] says: "When modern art is viewed as a periodic table, Cosmic Symbiosis emerges as an isotope of Paul Hartal's element, Lyrical Conceptualism". Kara and I collaborated and exhibited together throughout the years. His statements on his affiliation with Lyrical Conceptualism can be found in other publications as well, including the 7th edition of Artists/USA. On June 24, 1978, Le Nouveau Journal in Paris reviewed my show of "les Conceptions lyrique" at the Raymond Duncan Gallery and reported that I won the Prix de Paris. The Canadian poet Tom Konyves [33] wrote about Lyrical Conceptualism and the foundation of the Lyrical Conceptualist Society (LCS) in The Montreal Star, July 21, 1979. The LCS also organized exhibitions, including the 1980 International Concrete Poetry exhibit held at Vehicule Art in Montreal. Apart from Canada, submissions for the show arrived from England, Germany, Italy and the United States. On June 27, 1980, Virginia Nixon reported the event in The Montreal Gazette. She mentioned among the participants John Robert Colombo [34], Endre Farkas [35], LeRoy Gorman [36], Rober Racine [37], Nancy Herbert [38] and Klaus Groh [39] . In her view, part of the items on display were essentially “visual artworks, depending primarily on visual effect rather than on the concise balance of form and content that marks classic concrete poetry, such as the examples by Colombo, Stephen Morrissey [40], Davi det Hompson [41] and Paul Hartal”. In the course of time many became interested in learning about Lycoism and participated in collaborative projects. A far from complete list of artists affiliated with the LCS comprises Silvia Angotti [42], Paolo Barrile [43], Billy Curmano [44], Toshio Kojima [45], Antoni Miro [46], [47], [48], Gertrud Nasri, Barry Pilcher [49], Jon Roll, Bernard Re [50], Mogens Otto Nielsen [[51], [52] and Litsa Spathi [53] Assembling a remarkable collection of stamp designs by Mail Artists, Jean-Noel Laszlo in France organized the Timbres d’artistes exhibition at the Musee de la poste [54], which opened in September 1993 in Paris. The participants included Anna Banana, Gyorgy Galantai, Klaus Groh, Ruggero Maggi, Mogens Otto Nielsen, Clemente Padin, Balint Szombathy, Patricia Tavenner, Chuck Welch and many others, [55]. The theme of my image submission was “Does the Future Exist?” accompanied with an artist’s statement. The museum published a glossy catalogue, Timbres d’artistes, with color reproductions of the miniature images and commentaries on 247 pages [56]. In Russia, the A.S. Popov Museum of St. Petersburg [57] also exhibited my art-stamps. Moreover, the art historian and scientific adviser of the museum, Andrei P. Diatchenko, has published in Russian his research findings on Lycoism. He also initiated the translation of my writings into Russian, including an article on Space Art, and the monograph Painted Melodies. The latter, he points out, is of particular interest to art historians and musicologists, because it delineates a novel approach regarding the relationship between painting and music. In contrast to Kandinsky’s famous book, Concerning the Spiritual in Art, which treats color as an analogue of sound, Painted Melodies approaches music as a metaphor of visual form. In the focus of the project, Mussorgsky’s music is refracted and metamorphosed into a series of abstract and figurative paintings that correspond to the two types of music: absolute and programmatic. On June 23, 1990, Balint Szombathy reviewed Painted Melodies in Budapest in the influential Hungarian journal Élet és Irodalom. Seven years earlier, in March 1983, I had a solo show of paintings at the Joyce Yahouda Meir Gallery in Montreal. Painted Melodies was a companion book of the exhibition, an investigation of the connectivity of tone and image as structural definitions in the human experience of time and space. In early 1975 I had a solo exhibition of my paintings and multimedia at the Jacquie Gallery on Stanley Street in Montreal. A few weeks later I published A Manifesto on Lyrical Conceptualism, a new idea of art based on the synthesis of emotion, intuition and reason. In a sense, the manifesto protested the prevailing drift and tenor of our alienating and fragmented culture. It also reflected my break with the aesthetic withdrawal of Post-Formalist movements, such as Information Art and Conceptual Art. Calling for using the power of art for redemption, it rejected the Postmodern posture that life is meaningless. In the November-December 1976 issue of Art in America, I published a statement on Lyrical Conceptualism (p. 153), followed by another in Artnews, November 1977 (p. 214). In October 1979, Billy Curmano reprinted the full text of the Manifesto in the small format Fine Art Press, which he edited in Rushford, Mn. In December 1992 ,Trudy Myrrh Reagan introduced Lyrical Conceptualism to the readers of Ylem. In the same year I participated in the Art and Mathematics Conference hosted by the State University of New York at Albany, June 6-12, 1992. Amy Biancolli of the Albany Times Union interviewed me during the conference. In “Math meets art: Excitement at SUNYA as idea finds form”, among other things she wrote: “Hartal devised a theory, called 'lyrical conceptualism', that describes the necessary and natural balance between the ‘free flow’ of art and the strict mathematical design of science. It is a balance that Hartal said is more in accordance with Renaissance notions than those of the more specialized Industrial Revolution. During the Renaissance, the distinction between math and art--or more generally, math and science--did not exist at all". As a new art term, Lyrical Conceptualism also found its way to the pages of reference books. Thus, Who's Who in Art (The Art Trade Press, U.K.), ISBN 0-900083-08-5, in its 19th edition, page 202, already in 1980 acknowledges that I am the originator of Lyrical Conceptualism and the founder of the LCS. Similarly, the Dictionary of International Biography of 1986 (IBC, Cambridge), ISBN 0-900332 -79- 4, on page 303 mentions the Manifesto on Lyrical Conceptualism and the LCS in connection with my name. In the 1990s the NTT InterCommunication Center (ICC) [58], a futuristic media art museum located in the Opera City Tower of Tokyo, initiated a research project on Lyrical Conceptualism for its “Art and Techno-Science Dictionary” and database system. Directed by Masato Shirai, the ICC by 1994 also produced a compact disc containing data on approximately 300 selected artists that features my oeuvre as well. Also in Japan, I have contributed to over a hundred "Brain Cell" editions produced by the Osaka artist Ryosuke Cohen. Collaboration with artists from other movements, among them Conceptual Art, Blankism, Space Art and Mail Art has eventuated in the cross-fertilizing exchange of ideas. Lyco art is an open ended system and it is in constant flux. In 1994, "as a noted Space Artist", I received an invitation from Space Week International Association to display my visionary work on the cosmos at the NASA Space Center in Houston. The event honored the 25th anniversary of Apollo 11's historic landing on the moon. I participated in the group show with an acrylic painting of Antares (image 5 [59]), a giant star in the Scorpius Constellation of the Milky Way, about 250 light years distant from our planet. It did not take long and Richard Denson, publisher of the NASA national magazine Orbiter, contacted me and suggested to write an article on my cosmological paintings for the journal. “Space Art” was published in Orbiter in January-February 1995. Andrew Coleman [60], the editor, introduced it on the “Inside this Issue” page of the bimonthly: “Paul Hartal poetically expresses his universe through abstract paintings”. “Space Art” was illustrated with my painted interpretation of Antares, the galactic formation Horsehead Nebula [61] , facing the gigantic star Alnitak in the picture, a portrait of the astronomer Kepler and the symbolic composition, Orion Tree [62]. The article discussed Lyrical Conceptualism, in which “beauty and tradition are viewed as integral, indispensable elements of the totality of life. The past is part of us", it said, and "the rejection of traditional values is an ingredient of the alienation syndrome: a sign of self-estrangement, humanity ignores itself." Another attribute of this art idea, explained the article, involves "a rich and versatile world of imagery relying on tradition and innovation alike. Lyrical conceptualism holds out a balanced creative method based on the integrity and unity of the soul and mind". In September 1988 Radio Canada International broadcasted to millions of listeners an interview on Lyrical Conceptualism and the Korean Consulate's press release on my invitation as an Olympic artist in Seoul. Exploring similarities and differences between the Blankism [63] of Cho Sang Hyun [64] and Lyrical Conceptualism, an exhibit organized by the Seoul International Fine Art Center in Korea attracted 5,000 visitors in one week. Along with Cho Sang Hyun and Antoni Miro, in 2004 I showed my work in Seoul under the title, "Painting and Poetry". Painting and Poetry was a major Lyrical Conceptualist event held at the Korean Ivy League Hanseo University [65], where as a visiting artist I gave numerous interviews to newspaper journalists and TV reporters. Please see, for example, Art Korea, February-March 2004, pages 102-5. Also, artists, architects, poets and students approached me with their questions about my work. The influence of an art work cannot be objectively measured, but it transcends the walls of the exhibition hall. Art works featured in books can be viewed as travelling exhibitions without walls. In this regard, please, allow me to draw your attention to a book by Jean-Marc Denomme and Madeleine Roy, Pour Une Pedagogie Interactive, Gaetan Morin Editeur, 1998, ISBN 2-89105-688-4 [66]. The front page of the volume is illustrated with a painting of mine and on page 2 you find a biographical note of the artist. Here is an excerpt from it: (Paul Hartal) "Poete et artiste reconnu mondialement, il est a lâ origine du conceptualisme lyrique" (a poet and artist recognized worldwide, he is the originator of lyrical conceptualism). Let me also point out that since the early 1990s I have collaborated with the renowned writer and scientist Clifford Pickover, contributing numerous illustrations to his books, including Chaos in Wonderland; The Zen of Magic Squares, Circles and Stars; and the frontispiece on Einstein in Strange Brains and Genius. In Mazes for the Mind, Dr. Pickover wrote a chapter about the significance of my work, lyrical conceptualism and the philosophy of space and time. A few years ago Alisa Barstow in Russia reviewed in "Life Style" [67] the exhibits of two exponents of the "Moscow School of Lyrical Conceptualism", Elizaveta Berezovskaya [68] and Yekaterina Nesterova [69]. Paul Hartal 04:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

---

an die Wikipedia-Streiter!

Ich habe das hin- und her gelesen. Glaube dass auch ein Dritter was dazu sagen darf. Herr Hartal, von dem ich schon lange ein Lyrisch-Konzeptua-listisches-Bild besitze, ist mir noch aus den 60. Jahren bekannt. Ich hatte ihn damals in Paris kennegelernt wo er eine Ausstellung hatte. Er beindruckte mich als ernsthaft und ehrlich. Er war von seiner Kunst überzeugt. Von Zeit zu Zeit verfolgte ich seinen Werdegang und konnte feststellen dass mehrere Museen seine Werke besitzen und daß er inzwischen auch promovierte. Daß diese Attri-bute den Wert meines Bildes steigern ist nur ein Beiprodukt denn, es hat mich schon vor Jahren gereizt junge und nach meiner Mei-nung vielversprechende Künstler, mit meinen bescheidenen Mitteln durch Erwerb eines ihrer Werke zu unterstützen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.232.204.121 (talk) 17:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Collapsed entry by banned user

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Not famous enough

I just did a Google search and this guy is not famous at all. This wiki page should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amosjo (talk • contribs)

It appears to me that he meets WP:Notability, but you are welcome to suggest the article's deletion through either the WP:PRD or the WP:AFD routes. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Lawrence Paul Yuxweluptun is actually in art history books, but Lawrence Paul Yuxweluptun doesn't even have a wiki page. Seems silly that Mr. Hartal can make his own Wiki page. Shouldn't his fans do that for him? (Amosjo (talk) 17:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC))

The exac guideline is here: WP:CREATIVE. I suppose there's some room for interpretation. If you think he doesn't qualify then suggest deletion. As for the other artist - why not start an article about him? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:00, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

July 8th, 2008: It is not only my opinion, but evidence based that Mr. Paul Hartal is a renaissance man (Philosopher, Artist, Intellectual, are among his many qualities). In addition to his exhibitions of paintings world wide, Paul Hartal is also known as a poet and the theorist of Lyco Art or Lyrical Conceptualism. Before his well-received The Brush and the Compass, he already published a critically acclaimed book in Israel, A History of Architecture (Toldot Ha-adrichalut, Jerusalem: R. Mass, 1972, Harvard University Library). He is featured in Who's Who in American Art (Marquis), Canadian Who's Who (University of Toronto) and other books in many languages. His exhibitions in Seoul were attended by thousands of visitors as documented, for example, in Art Korea, February-March 2004. In the summer of 2007 he exhibited at the museum of Fine Arts in Budapest.

Rz-ohana (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I know Mr. Paul Hartal for many years. He is a prominent artist, poet, itellectual and philosopher. In Israel Paul Hartal exhibited his paintings in the 1960s. In 1978 he won the Prix de Paris at exhibitions held at the Musee du Luxemburg and other galleries in the French capital. He is also the founder of the Lyrical Conceptualist Society[LCS]. Billy Curmano,for example,a member of the LCS has exhibited his collaborative projects with Paul Hartal at various museums. [signed]Lehavi,Israel

July 21, 2008

Rather than the superficial glistening of fame, Paul Hartal’s real interests concern explorations in the universal foundations of art. This incorporates the creative process, the connectivity of art and science and the interaction of aesthetics with society. In his theory and practice of Lyco Art (Lyrical Conceptualism) he has identified the central role of art in its life serving function.

Following his 1975 Manifesto, Paul Hartal also published statements on Lyrical Conceptualism, which appeared in Art in America (November-December 1976, p. 153) as well as in Art News (November 1977, p. 214). In 1978 the artist exhibited his paintings in Paris at the Musee du Luxembourg and his Flowers for Cezanne won first prize at the Prix de Paris competition and also exhibited at the Duncan Gallery in New York (Roger Delneufcourt, Le Nouveau Journal, Paris, June 24, 1978; Betsy Wones, Ed., 1979 Artist’s Market, Cincinnati, Ohio: Writer’s Digest Books, p. 511; Tom Konyves, The Montreal Star, July 21, 1979).

The significance of Paul Hartal’s oeuvre involves his innovative contributions to the history of ideas in expanding the realm of aesthetics into science through a variety of interdisciplinary projects. As a visionary painter of the universe in the 1990s NASA invited him to present his work at the Space Centre in Houston. According to Barbara Costa of the University of Salerno, Hartal is the leading representative of “Aeropittura” in Space Art. In the Art and Mathematics conference held at the University of Albany, 1992, he was interviewed by Amy Biancolly of The Times Union regarding Lyrical Conceptualism and science. The artist’s publications on Time, Perception and Artificial Intelligence led to collaboration with the renowned computer scientist and writer Clifford Pickover (please see: Chaos in Wonderland; The Zen of Magic Squares, Time, as well as other books).

Further Information:

[70]

[71]

[72]

[73]

[74]

[75]

[76]

[77]

Watcher64 (talk) 14:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Harasssment

July 6th 2008:

Mr Paul Hartal has taken offense to my comment here on the discussion page and has since spammed me with complaints. Apparently he is very defensive about his wiki page and it makes me question whether his notability has been deliberately fabricated by he himself.

I also consider his contacting, stalking and spamming of me to be a violation of my privacy agreement with Wikipedia. Users should not be allowed to make unwanted contact with other users outside the confines of Wikipedia. If this does not cease I will be taking legal action.

(Amosjo (talk) 17:21, 6 July 2008 (UTC))

When that user was banned he was still allowed to send emails. I've changed the block term to prevent that. Sorry for the trouble. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

• • • The Internet is a very unreliable source of information. The fake biography of John Seigenthaler that appeared on Wikipedia has demonstrated well how irresponsible cyber authors can be.

On this talk page itself the malicious aspersion that Mr. Paul Hartal "fabricated" his evidence-based work (books, exhibitions, etc.), or biography, is a false accusation and a defamatory act.

Harassment? Stalking? The Wikipedia article on Cyberstalking says: Many cyberstalkers post false information on websites, including Wikipedia, with the intention of defaming individuals. Then they do another step: They claim that the victim is harassing them.

Cyberlaw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.25.38.133 (talk) 17:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Notability

the notability looks dubious here if it is based on his coining of the term Lyrical conceptualism. There is evidence above and in the article that the idea has been strongly pushed by the author, and that it has not been taken up so much in reliable sources. The article also appears to contain original research. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:23, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Please remove the "Paul Hartal" article from Wikipedia.

Yours sincerely,

Paul Hartal Pranek (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

On what grounds? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 19:33, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Mon, Aug 15 at 2:23 p.m.

The "Paul Hartal" article has been truncated and presented in a manner that does not reflect good faith. List of Exhibitions with references deleted, as well List of Publications. The article is characterized by cherry picking and straw man building tactics. Why was, for example, the reference to my 2007 exhibition at the Museum of Fine Arts in Budapest deleted? Or the "Paul Hartal" article in the Art History website of Concordia University? Or

https://www.artpool.hu/Artistamp/87-07/Hartal.htmlthe referenced 1978 exhibition at the Luxembourg Museum in Paris (in Le Salon des Surindependants) , Artists/USA, Seventh Edition, p. 67. In the July 21, 1979, edition of The Montreal Star, Tom Konyves in "Poetry Corner" writes: "Paul Hartal's... painting Flowers for Cezanne won first prize in the Prix de Paris competition last year." I also am curious why my science advancing views, endorsed, for example, by such renowned scientists as Clifford A. Pickover and M. Fayngold -- see, e.g., Clifford A. Pickover, Time; Oxford University Press, 1998, p. 96; and M. Fayngold, Special Relativity, NY: Wiley, 2008, p. 125--are called "pseudoscience" by Wikipedia editors with unknown qualifications.

Furthermore the article ignores such significant accomplishments as being a commissioned artist who designed the Canadian entry for the sport album of the 24th olympiad held in Seoul; or that-- adapted by Iris Dekker into film--- Paul Hartal's poem , "Subway", won First Prize at the 2012 Poetry on Film competition held at the Free University of Amsterdam.

Subway : A Story of Unborn Love

http://bibcat.gallery.ca/search/ahartal+paul+1936 Pranek (talk) 21:37, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I removed those because those were little more than cirricula vitae and wouldn't help address any of the issues in re notability, as well as coming off as promotional-by-overdetail. Being prolific does not equate to being notable as far as Wikipedia is concerned. Hartal also does not get to dictate what is in the article about him. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 21:43, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Note that user:Paul Hartal also claimed to be Paul Hartal and is banned from Wikipedia. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Note that user:Paul Hartal also claimed to be Paul Hartal--No such thing took place. Pranek (talk) 21:19, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

You need to work on your reading comprehension. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 21:21, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

You too. Pranek (talk) 21:38, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Now that the Pranek sideshow is over, there needs to be some serious discussion as to the content and sourcing for this article. I haven't been able to find anything online in re Paul Hartal (string: "paul hartal") so if there are any usable sources they're going to be offline or in some form I'm incompetent to assess (i.e. WP:NSCHOLAR claims). The current state of affairs for this article, even after I did edits cutting out the CVs and unsourced biographical claims, is unacceptable, and I'm having a closer look at the Selected Exhibitions section I removed to see if there's anything there that could return. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 23:12, 15 August 2022 (UTC)