Talk:Etymology of Khuzestan

Why this article

Good lord, where did this article come from? john k 07:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's an outgrowth of extensive arguments at Khuzestan and Ahvaz and Ethnic politics of Khuzestan. See the arguments on the talk pages there.

I have written an article, History of Khuzestan, which I need to correct, as it was based on online sources which proved to be erroneous. I ordered an unpublished dissertation re the history of Khuzestan and it knocked a number of my statements down like nine-pins.

From my POV, the editors Southern Comfort and Zereshk are fighting the Iran-Iraq war all over again and have cast me as Saddam Hussein. Any edits I make to the first three articles are instantly reverted, and I am not allowed to link History of Khuzestan to any of the three articles.

Even after I found sources I trusted for an early use of Khuzestan/Khuzistan, Zereshk had invested so much energy in proving my earlier doubts wrong that he decided to put it all in this article. IMHO, he is extremely resistant to any editing, or to removal of any of his quotes. But perhaps it's just that I've pissed him off so thoroughly that it's ME who's not allowed to touch his prose. You can try editing and see what happens.

Sheikh Jabir wasn't one of the Bani Ka'b, I find from the unpublished dissertation. He was from a rival group.

Nor do I find any references anywhere that would support the statement that there were no significant numbers of Arabs in the province until the 15th-16th centuries. I would say that it is more likely that there had been a slow but steady arabization ever since the Arab conquest in the late 630s. Mustafaa agrees. But we don't have any proof, since this is social, rather than political history, and older historians paid little attention to social history. It would take a combination of sustained archaeological work and dedicated digging in the archives to get info, and this is NOT the kind of research the current Iranian government would allow, I should think. Seems to me that the most sensible thing would be to say that the population of the area tipped from Elamo-Persian to majority Arab over the centuries, but when and how are not clear.

You may want to read the Ahvaz/Khuzestan/Ethnic politics of Khuzestan talk pages if you like melodrama <g>. Zora 07:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. The entire article has only one quote.
2. For people who find the existence of this article strange, please see the similar Origin of the name California.--Zereshk 09:49, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article is lacking references, and only the first part of it("Khuzestan", origins) is related to what the name of the article conveys, the rest is about proving the name(did anyone ever claim that the area was never named Khuzestan??), this article seems to be written to prove a point rather than to provide information Ahmed Hallak (talk) 01:57, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

POV , Reference needed

Arabistan sect begins with an allegation " The Arabs of Khuzestan are not indigenous to the province" this allegation does not provide any reliable source and more than that It's not even related to the topic which should talk ,about the origins of Khuzistan or Arabistan name and our request for providing any source being reverted by whose appear to be from Persian Editors community

Not to mention This unsourced allegation is easily can be confirmed false as Al-Tabari the wellknown Persian scholar talks about presence of Arabs of Khuzistan before the Islamic conqure which algedly cause the migration of Arabs in Khuzistan , He talks about How Arabs of Khuzistan aid the Islamic troops to over come the sassanied empire in different battels especially in Suq-Alahwaz battle

More than he adds that in 242 AD Arabs of Khuzistan in valley of Hormozedjan Aid the ssassanied king Ardeshir papakan against the Partnian king Ardewan (Altabari Vol 4 Page 208)

Not to mention that in 200 B.C Khuzistan which was not known with this name either (Khuzistan is a ssassanied name) saw the biggest kingdom on Its land The Arabic Empire of Messian with 26 kings, with Its capital (xarakas = today khoramshahr) , the ssassanied attack on the province result the fall of Messin kingdom

Now how is that Arabs considered Immigrants in this article? If you don't see all this historical sources that proves Arabs existence even before ssassanid Khuzistan at least and for the sake of Wikipedia credibly don't remove the Ask for reliable source which proves the other idea mentioned in the sect! Ted hamiltun (talk) 12:55, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

>>Al-Tabari talks about the Arabs of Khuzestan in Al-Tabari Vol 4 Page 208

False, Tarikh Al-Tabari Vol 4 is right here [1], not only is there no page 208. but the entire volume mentions nothing about Arabs in Khuzestan.

>>Not to mention that in 200 B.C Khuzistan which was not known with this name either (Khuzistan is a ssassanied name)

Again, also false, the other source you've used, "Lost World of Elam" here [2] states the following in page 21:

"The name Khuzian dates right back to ancient Persian times : even Darius the Great (522-486) knew of no Elam but only of a Huzha."

As for Mesene, no WP:RS source states Khuzestan as part of that kingdom, on the contrary, there was a separate, non-Arab kingdom present in Khuzestan during the exact same time called Elymais [3]

Your repeated vandalizing of articles and falsification of sources is getting quite tiresome at this point. -- Qahramani44 (talk) 05:45, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

This is enough to respond to your nonsense about Mesene wich located in Khuzistan, Meseniesd even over came the Elymais, so how they were not in Khuzistan

بندانگشتی|255px|Lands under control of Mesene Ted hamiltun (talk) 10:35, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Map of Arabic kingdome of Characene 200 B.C

Ted hamiltun (talk) 10:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

What publication is your source for Tabari , I mentioned the Al-Tabari book , translation of Abul Qasem payande, Asatir Publication, Tehran, Vol 4, Page 208 ، the page is attached !

http://uupload.ir/files/wle_20190310_142712.jpg Ted hamiltun (talk) 11:00, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Despite the fact that Ahmad Kasravi Iranian Historian espoused Persian nationalist tendencies, in his book 500 years history of Khuzesatn, qutoting from Al-Tabari says:

"but it is certain and there is proof for it that during the Parthian era Arab tribes were living in provinces of Kerman, Khuzestan, Bahrin and Fars"

Ahmad Kasravi refers to the Tabari history book, And writes 

“ Aam is the same Merah Ibn Zidan Tammim, it seems these are the same well known tribe of Bani-Tammim whom today reside in Khuzestan and their ancestor is Merah Ibn Malik, who lived in the era of Ardeshir Babakan the first Sassanid king, and helped that king in his war against the Parthian Ardawan..

Thus according to Kasravi which in his turn quoting from Al-Tabari the Arabs have lived in Khuzestan and other parts of southern Iran, since the Parthian era! Ted hamiltun (talk) 11:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Quoting from Al-Tabari

" the conquest of Ahwaz was in the 18th year, when Omar (2n caliph) entered Syria, the cities of Ahwaz were overcome and the king of Ahwaz was Hormozan, a great man, the kingdom of Ahwaz was his and his family, there were seventy cities in Ahwas. And Hormozan was the king of all those cities. There were people in Ahwas of Kalib Ibn Vael (Arabs Tribe) and there was enmity between them and Hormozan due to land and village disputes. Hormozan went to the main of the cities that was in the centker of the country; the name of the city was “Sough al-Ahwaz” and took refuge in that city which was fortified. And through that city was a river by the name of Dojil and underneath it is a bridge.”

} Ted hamiltun (talk) 11:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Presence of Semetis in what called Khuzistan by ssassanied goes beyond the date of Ariyans Immigration to Iranian plateau, Walther Hinz the wellknown German Archeologist and Eylamogist in his book Last world of Elam :

"These must be Elamites from the hinterland Even today dark-skinned men, in no way negroid, are often to be seen in Khuzistan. They consider themselves for the most part as Arabs, and speak Arabic among themselves. It seems likely that the population even of Ancient Elam was a mixed one, consisting of dark-skinned aboriginals of uncertain race and of Semites, who had infiltrated from Mesopotamia in repeated incursions since the Akkad period"

Ted hamiltun (talk) 11:40, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Ted hamiltun (talk) 11:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

• I want to add that the names ‘Elam’ and ‘Khuz’ are two synonyms for the same people. Elam is the name of the forefather of the Khuz. It’s common for an ethnic group to be referred to their common progenitor. For example, Israelite and Hebrew. Israel is the name of the forefather of a group of Hebrews. Regarding references by Persian sources vs non-Persian sources, it’s simply a matter of exonym vs endonym. I also want to add that historically ‘Arab’ refers to anyone who speaks a Semitic language in which the Arab bedouins could communicate with because of mutual intelligibility. Arab is not the name of an ethnicity, despite that being a common misconception. Many Elamites/Khuzis also spoke Aramaic, which at the time was largely intelligible to Arab bedouins. This also part of the reason why the Achaemenids chose Aramaic as the lingua franca. LissanX (talk) 22:18, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

References

@LissanX:

Hi my friend, I just got out from block

due to their report for my reverting , and my reverts was continious ask for a Refrence for a phrase  that doesn't exist in cited source, Now tell me is this legal to add controversial statements with out providing any source not to mention this phrase contradicts historical records provided by Persian historian themselves Ted hamiltun (talk) 15:11, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

• Hi Ted, unfortunately this happens a lot of Wikipedia. I remember a while back I edited the Reza Pahlavi article, and there were 2 or 3 people trying to censor information and insert fabrications. Unfortunately, some people use Wikipedia for their own agendas and to enforce their own corrupt POV’s. LissanX (talk) 05:47, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

!Arabistan Section, Editors Clean this mess

First this section should talk about the origins of the Khuzistan or Arabistan name not to question the historical existence of inhabitants of the province, anyways the section begins with an allegation which has no refrence The Arabs of Khuzestan are not indigenous to the province and the source given by one of users does not contain this phrase! And any ask for reference beign being removed by an Iranian user that keeps to push his ideas to this article

Anyways if this section Is to discuss the Semitic presence in the province there is hard evidence that the large part of inhabitants of Elam were Semitic and this is before the Aryians immigration to the Iranian platue

Walther Hinz the wellknown German archeologist and Elamologist points to dark skinned Elamites of khuzistan in his book " The Lost World of Elam" :

"These must be Elamites from the hinterland Even today dark-skinned men, in no way negroid, are often to be seen in Khuzistan. They consider themselves for the most part as Arabs, and speak Arabic among themselves. It seems likely that the population even of Ancient Elam was a mixed one, consisting of dark-skinned aboriginals of uncertain race and of Semites, who had infiltrated from Mesopotamia in repeated incursions since the Akkad period"

Ted hamiltun (talk) 04:30, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Nice cherry picking and made-up stuff. This is the full text:

• Any attempt to trace the Elamites ethnologically is beset with difficulties. The more you investigate available sources, the more you get the impression that the Elamites were -the Elamites, a race of immutable independence. No relationship with other peoples has yet emerged. However, it seems likely that the Elamites had much in common with the Lullubi, a mountain race and their neighbours to the north, and with others of the so-called Su peoples. The Elamite population was nonetheless heterogeneous. In the glazed brick reliefs of his body guards with which Darius, King of the Persians, decorated the palace at Susa in 500 b.c., the artist clearly depicts three different races. Some guards are white skinned and are obviously in tended to represent Persians, although in Elamite garb. A second group is brown-skinned and a third is very dark, almost black. These must be Elamites from the hinterland. Even today dark-skinned men, in no way negroid, are often to be seen in Khuzistan. They consider themselves for the most part as Arabs, and speak Arabic among themselves. It seems likely that the population even of Ancient Elam was a mixed one, consisting of dark-skinned aboriginals of uncertain race and of Semites, who had infiltrated from Mesopotamia in repeated incursions since the Akkad period (twenty-fifth century b.c,). The brown-skinned guards, on the other hand, may have represented the mountain Elamites, who survive today as the Lurs : in north Susiana the Feili-Lurs, in the cast and south the Bakhtiyarians. The majority of the Lurs are black-haired and brown-skinned, a tough race, used to life in the mountains, and somewhat taller than the plain-dwellers. They too reveal an admixture of foreign blood, and thus cease to be pure Elamites. But the admixture is less pronounced than in the valley Elamites, and its origin lies not in the Semitic but in the Indo-Germanic races, especially the Persians.[4]

The source does not support your claim in any aspect. It just says dark-skinned is not equal to Black race. Plus Elamites and Elamite language have nothing to do with Semitic peoples. And Semitic does not mean Arab. Your whole comment is your personal interpretation of that mentioned source. However, I'll remove "The Arabs of Khuzestan are not indigenous to the province." part because Iranica[5] only talks about migration of Arabs to Khuzistan. I didn't see any mention of "indigenous" there. --Wario-Man (talk) 06:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Also, the sentence removed by Wario-Man was quite redundant with the next one : "Most Arabs such as the Bani Kaab tribe, came from the west and southwest of the Tigris and Euphrates outside of Khuzestan, beginning in the 15-16th centuries. During the succeeding centuries many more Arab tribes moved from southern Iraq to Khuzestan; as a result, Khuzestan gained the second name Arabistan, and became extensively Arabized.".---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:55, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

References

@Wario-Man:

Shame on you, yes you should've remove it from beginig because It's not in the provided source!! and that was all I asked over and over again from beginning and you kept reverting it Illigaly!! And I got blocked for No reason!

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I really don't wanna discuss further topics with you, you sure are an Ignorant person but when you say semetis doesn't mean Arab that's a hillarious Joke and It's your personal Interpretation.

What is Arab itself? Arabic is a langauge and not a race or ethnicity , historically ‘Arab’ refers to anyone who speaks a Semitic language in which the Arab bedouins could communicate with because of mutual intelligibility. Arab is not the name of an ethnicity, despite that being a common misconception. Many Elamites also spoke Aramaic, which at the time was largely intelligible to Arab bedouins, you should take in consideration that Elamites adopted Akkadian and Aramaic and all Elymais era inscriptions was written in Aramaic mother of modern Arabic! And no Inscription in Persian!

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Who is Indigenous who is Immigrant?

The one who are not Indigenous to the region , are those Immigrants who adopted the other native nations writing system and langauge when arrived, That's why when Iranian tribes arrived to the region they Adopted the Semitic cuneiform then adopted semitic Aramaic Alphabet! The language which become the formal language of the first Persian Empire! Persians even called their king with Aramaic titles MLK ( ملک) and that's an Arabic term for "King"

Even Cyrus the Persian in his Cylinder Introduce himself in Semitic

chapter 20 : "Ana-Ku Ku-ra-aş ...Lugal Kibriati Erbeiti"

And that's an obvious Arabic term Ana-ku (انا ana) "I" in Arabic Kibriati ( کبیر : kabir) "Great" in Arabic,  Erbeiti ( اربعه: Erbe'a) "Four in Arabic"

I  Cyrus the Great king of Four corner !

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And for the presence of Arabs that you consider a part from Semites, (lol) there are also numerous records that proves their existence in Khuzistan since at least the Parthian era

Ahmad kasrawi, Persian scholar in His book The 500 Years of Khuzistan History" says :

" but it is certain and there is proof for it that during the Parthian era Arab tribes were living in provinces of Kerman, Khuzestan, Bahrin and Far"

"Made up stuff hah!!"

And I don't wanna talk about Arabic Characene Empire in Khuzistan 160B.C which Pliny the Elder describe them and their king , Arab Kingdom with An Arab King!

I'm done here, have fun Ted hamiltun (talk) 20:49, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 9 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 11:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

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Origin of the name Khuzestan → Etymology of Khuzestan – Article discusses etymology. Both WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE applies here. Catchpoke (talk) 02:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.