Talk:Wikimedia genealogy project

There's clearly support; how do we move forward?

The other pages show that there's clear support for such a project; we don't need another signup sheet here. What we need is a way to move forward. In particular, we need to discuss the following:

1. Are we interested in making a new project, or adopting an already existing one?
2. If we adopt an existing one, which one? Or do we try to merge a few?
3. Should we gain broader input, by making a binding, Wikimedia-wide RFC?
4. Do we need input from the WMF board?

As well as policy discussions, which may be moot if we adopt an existing project, but still worth discussing:

1. Should we allow living people?
2. Should sources be optional, encouraged, or required?
3. Should any information be private (only viewable to relatives)?

If we make a new project:

1. Who will create the necessary software?
2. How long will it take to make the software?
3. What functionality is necessary, preferable, optional, and unwanted?

These are some of the issues we need to discuss. -- Ypnypn (talk) 22:03, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I have been editing Wikipedia for a number of years now and have also more recently become active in WeRelate, which is currently the largest wiki-based genealogy project. Even if we adopt an existing project I think the policies will need changing. In particular, I think the WeRelate policies are a bit light in a number of areas. My tupp'orth in answer to the questions above:

AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

(These questions, and AndrewRT's responses, have been separated into subsections below, for organizational purposes.) --Another Believer (talk) 23:50, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Are we interested in making a new project, or adopting an already existing one?

• I would suggest a bit of both. There is significant support (although not unanimous) from the WeRelate community for becoming a Wikimedia project (see http://www.werelate.org/wiki/WeRelate_talk:Next_Steps). However, the site is still officially in "beta" and I'm not sure the site is actually fit for becoming a project just as it is. In particular, policies on inclusion, deletion, sourcing, copyright etc. would need considerable development and there is a large amount of "legacy" data that pre-dates a tightening of policies which might be worth leaving as it is. Some aspects - e.g. the use of google maps - aren't scalable. Some WeRelate community members might also prefer that we left the site at the very least to "parallel run" whilst the Wikimedia project is getting going. - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

If we adopt an existing one, which one? Or do we try to merge a few?

• WeRelate is the obvious one, being the largest wiki based genealogy site by far. Thinking broader, it may also be a good idea to team up with the people behind FreeUKGen, an excellent project publishing free-copyright primary source material which could work very well together with a wiki site for the family tree aspect. - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  • But WeRelate has only English version. While Rodovid is multi-language like Wikipedia. — Dionys (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
    • Yes, but Rodovid is much smaller and appears to be largely dormant. Ideally you would want to use the best of both. AndrewRT (talk) 23:37, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Should we gain broader input, by making a binding, Wikimedia-wide RFC?

• I don't see how any RFC could be "binding" in any sense. Personally I would like to develop a firmer proposal first and then to go to the community with some specific questions (e.g. on the core policies, e.g. sourcing, living people, copyright, links with Wikimedia Commons) - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Do we need input from the WMF board?

• Definitely. An early indication from them on support (or otherwise) in principle would be very useful. In particular, I think we should ask their counsel to look into the legal issues around privacy and whether the WeRelate approach to living people adequately addresses these legal issues. - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Should we allow living people?

• Personally I would go down the WeRelate route of saying no living people unless notable but this really needs a paid lawyer to consider this issue. - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
• If living people don't mind, then we can add them. — Dionys (talk) 08:21, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Agreed, but in my case that would only be of any value if my living father also consented. Getting evidence of consent could be very hard. AndrewRT (talk) 23:39, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Should sources be optional, encouraged, or required?

• I'm inclining towards making it required on the basis that it's not hard to do and it makes a dramatic improvement to the quality of the data. As a half-way house you could say, for instance, that GEDCOMs uploaded must have sources against, say, 50% of individuals. You could also make it easier to add sources during the upload process. - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
• Can the project really be trustworthy without sources? Don't we need the ability to review one anothers' work? --Another Believer (talk) 03:20, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
• A non-indexed draft namespace (or something to that effect) may help in this regard. --Waldir (talk) 06:38, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Should any information be private (only viewable to relatives)?

• There seems to be a lot of support for this among genealogists, but I think it goes against the idea of a publicly-available wiki. - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

  Agreed. Does not really resonate with the mission of WMF. Also, that seems hard to regulate. --Another Believer (talk) 03:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

  Yes, there are plenty of solutions for private genealogy out there already. Restricted visibility and/or editing of data doesn't fit the spirit of a wiki. --Waldir (talk) 06:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

If we make a new project, who will create the necessary software?

• WeRelate seem to have done a good job on this and have publicly sourced the code so that seems the obvious starting point (although it needs a lot of work doing on it - again somewhere where WMF support would be needed) - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
• Familypedia ditto. See http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Version. Robin Patterson (talk) 12:47, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

If we make a new project, how long will it take to make the software?

• I'm no techie so I have no idea. - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

If we make a new project, what functionality is necessary, preferable, optional, and unwanted?

• GEDCOM are my #1 as they are key to being able to scale. - AndrewRT (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

What now?

Assuming that there is support for a genealogy project, what do we (as a community) need to do to make this happen? -- Ypnypn (talk) 22:39, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I think the first thing would be to find a space on Wikimedia where we could create an incubator-like project, and import/modify some test pages from potential partner wikis. I don't think it should be too difficult to start a beta (or rather, an alpha!) at genealogy.wikimedia.org or something.--Pharos (talk) 22:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I do not believe there is a process to create beta projects like that. Let's make SPCom into a real thing... PiRSquared17 (talk) 22:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

We make the road by walking. Given that past proposals show a wide consensus for the idea of a genealogy wiki, while uncertainties remain on implementation and particular partnerships, I think the best thing is to start an incubator-like project not prejudiced to any particular implementation, and let that emerging community make its own choices, and evolve to the point where it can reach the Wikimedia-wide RFC stage for an "official" project.--Pharos (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

@Pharos: How should we start such a project? Should someone register WikimediaGenealogyProject.org, or should we ask WM to let us use genealogy.wikimedia.org? -- Ypnypn (talk) 21:40, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I sent talk page invitations, encouraging people to visit this page, to all contributors who made edits to the existing genealogy proposals (or associated talk pages). What other avenues are there for inviting discussion and participation? --Another Believer (talk) 23:16, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Add to Template:Main_Page/WM_News, Wikimedia Forum, enwiki Village Pump, maybe others... isn't this enough? PiRSquared17 (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, my attempt to understand how to add Template:Announce proposal to Template:Main_Page/WM_News was unsuccessful. Does someone know how to do this? --Another Believer (talk) 21:23, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Wikidata

Doesn't Wikidata provide genealogy tools? --NaBUru38 (talk) 23:23, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Talk:WeRelate#Wikidata. PiRSquared17 (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

No living people?

Why would we exclude living people, provided a publicly-available source can be found? --Jakob (talk) 23:34, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Because there are still privacy issues. If a local newspaper once published my date-of-birth without my permission, Wikimedia shouldn't post this permanently on one of the most visited sites on the Internet. -- Ypnypn (talk) 00:25, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

What is the reason we choose not to apply the same privacy standard to biographies at Wikipedia? Those articles are created from the same newspapers. --Another Believer (talk) 01:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

On the English Wikipedia, bios are not allowed for people notable for just one event, especially for low-profile individuals. See also WP:BLPNAME. (I'm not actually completely opposed to having living people on a geni-site, but it has to be very well thought-out.) -- Ypnypn (talk) 02:30, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for further explaining. --Another Believer (talk) 03:01, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Whatever is done, it must comply with wmf:BLP. So unsourced BLP info must be removed. Whether BLPs should be allowed at all is a separate but related issue, so I am posting below. PiRSquared17 (talk) 03:14, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

And even for notable people, we would only publish their own bio, without referencing other members of their family (except if they are notable by themselves). So this excludes children, parents, spouse/partner(s)... Except if these other persons participate directly in a public event or a public artwork creation or public show in their own names: we will still need to sualify the notability of these other persons for something else than a single low profile event (remember that these people also have a right to be forgotten, we should not promote them more and for longer time than what these persons initially intended in a limited participation with some limited public exposure (e.g. when participating in a collective event with many other people that are not more or lss notable than these "personnalities" for the same kind of participation).

Genealogy causes severe problems due to its nature of creating giant files about lots of people. Such databases are normally not given free access even where they exist. Wikimedia projects do not need to have a database containing personal bios of its own millions contributors with all members of their family ! And Wikimedia admins won't be able to handle millions of requests for removal via its OTRS system (we can't have tens of thousands OTRS admins without breaking completely the OTRS system itself for handling other issues such as copyvios.

Wikimedia projects in fact don't need this data because it has no educative value in any other context, it is not reusable, generally not free, and not modifiable. Supporting this project could cause severe and very costly troubles to the Foundation... Its too risky IMHO (and that's also why projects developing genealogy databases do it in closed project : they can control the access, avoid abuses and unwanted publications).

In fact I'd like to read some statement from the Legal and Community Advocacy department, but I'm confident that they will feel, with their lawyers, that this is too risky to be viable on Wikimedia as an open content project without risking long term sustainability of all other projects. verdy_p (talk) 21:18, 27 February 2014 (UTC)