View source for Talk:Greater Middle East

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{{Old AfD multi | date = 27 May 2016 | result = '''no consensus''' | page = Greater Middle East}}
{{old prod full |con=Kvng |condate=2016-05-27 |conreason= }}
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| nom       = Damianmx
| nomdate   = 2016-05-19
| nomreason = This scrawny article is a largely unreferenced [[WP:OR]] that does not tell our readers anything that is not already covered under [[Middle_East#Other_definitions_of_the_Middle_East|relevant subsections]] of the main [[Middle East]] article. This page has been in existence for more than a decade, yet in all this time, it has not improved in substance or quality.
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== Improving on Chart ==

{{Infobox continent
| title        = Greater Middle East
| image        = Greater Middle East (orthographic projection).svg
| caption      = Variations on definitions of the Middle East and North Africa region
{{legend|#346733|Traditional definition of the [[:en:Middle East|Middle East]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=Middle East {{!}} History, Map, Countries, & Facts|url=https://www.britannica.com/place/Middle-East|access-date=2021-05-31|website=Encyclopedia Britannica|language=en}}</ref>}}
{{legend|#008000|Greater Middle East (2004 U.S. Government paper)<ref name=Perthes/><ref name="The Greater Middle East Initiative"/>}}
{{legend|#73ED73|Areas pundits sometimes associated with Middle East c. 2004<ref name=Perthes/>}}

| countries    = {{Collapsible list
| titlestyle = background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;
| title      = [[Member states of the United Nations|UN member states]] (34)
| ''Asia''
| {{flag|Afghanistan}}
| {{flag|Armenia}}
| {{flag|Azerbaijan}}
| {{flag|Bahrain}}
| {{flag|Cyprus}}
| {{flag|Georgia}}
| {{flag|Kazakhstan}}
| {{flag|Kyrgyzstan}}
| {{flag|Iran}}
| {{flag|Iraq}}
| {{flag|Israel}}
| {{flag|Jordan}}
| {{flag|Kuwait}}
| {{flag|Lebanon}}
| {{flag|Oman}}
| {{flag|Pakistan}}
| {{flag|Qatar}}
| {{flag|Saudi Arabia}}
| {{flag|Syria}}
| {{flag|Tajikistan}}
| {{flag|Turkey}}
| {{flag|Turkmenistan}}
| {{flag|United Arab Emirates}}
| {{flag|Uzbekistan}}
| {{flag|Yemen}}
| (Only member states included in official U.S. paper)

| ''Africa''
| {{flag|Algeria}}
| {{flag|Djibouti}}
| {{flag|Egypt}}
| {{flag|Libya}}
| {{flag|Mauritania}}
| {{flag|Morocco}}
| {{flag|Somalia}}
| {{flag|Sudan}}
| {{flag|Tunisia}}
 }}

 {{Collapsible list
|titlestyle = background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;
|title      = [[United Nations General Assembly observers#Present non-member observers|UN observer state]] (1)
| {{flag|State of Palestine}}
 }}

 {{Collapsible list
| titlestyle = background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;
| title      = [[List of states with limited recognition|Disputed]] (8)
| {{flag|Abkhazia}}
| {{flag|Artsakh}}
| {{noflag|[[Golan Heights]]}}
| {{flag|Northern Cyprus}}
| {{flag|Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic}}
| {{flag|Somaliland}}
| {{flag|South Ossetia}}
| {{noflag|[[West Bank]]}}
 }}

| dependencies = {{Collapsible list
|titlestyle     = background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;
|title          = [[Territory|Internal]] (3)
| {{flag|Gaza Strip}}
| {{flag|Kurdistan Region}}
| {{flag|Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria|name=Rojava}}
 }}

{{Collapsible list
|titlestyle = background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;
|title      = [[Dependent territory|External]] (7)
| {{Flag|Akrotiri and Dhekelia}}
| {{flag|Canary Islands}}
| {{flag|Ceuta}}
| [[File:Lampedusa e Linosa-Stemma.svg|15px]] [[Lampedusa]] and [[Lampione]]}}
| {{flag|Madeira}}
| {{flag|Melilla}}
| {{flagicon|Spain}} [[Plazas de soberanía]] 
 }}

 {{Collapsible list
|titlestyle = background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;
|title = [[United Nations|UN]] [[Buffer zone|Buffer Zones]] (2)
| {{flagdeco|United Nations}} [[United Nations Buffer Zone in Cyprus|UNBZC]]
| {{flagdeco|United Nations}} [[United Nations Disengagement Observer Force#UNDOF Zone|UNDOF Zone]]
 }}

}}

{{reflist-talk}}

== Greater Middle East ==

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-the-greater-middle-east-primary-subdivisions

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/maps.shtml

"Sub-Divison" 
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/mapGreaterME.jpg [[User:Doremon764|Doremon764]] ([[User talk:Doremon764|talk]]) 16:15, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0ebe82900b99db5bc599805a192129f2 [[User:Doremon764|Doremon764]] ([[User talk:Doremon764|talk]]) 16:17, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

== Additional stuff we could add to the page: ==

Should we add Area, Population, Population density, GDP (nominal), GDP per capita, Demonym, Official Languages (Minority Languages & unofficial/unrecognised Languages), Currencies, Religion, Official scripts, Time zones, and World Heritage Sites, Largest cities, and Internet TLD on the chart? [[User:Doremon764|Doremon764]] ([[User talk:Doremon764|talk]]) 04:45, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

:Nothing wrong with adding more information. Go ahead if you like. [[User:Vic Park|Vic Park]] ([[User talk:Vic Park|talk]]) 00:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

== Western Sahara ==
@[[User:Vic Park|Vic Park]] Your edit summary appears to contradict itself: "Western Sahara is partially occupied by Morroco. The territory as a whole should not be classified as an occupied territory. . . . If we put it under occupied territories, we are siding with the SADR which violated the npov policy."

You agree that the Southern Provinces are occupied territory, so then we should just replace "{{flagicon image|Flag.svg}} [[Western Sahara]]" with "{{flagicon image|Flag.svg}} [[Southern Provinces]]". It doesn't make sense to maintain a separate "Disputed" category just for Western Sahara when everything else that used to be in that category has been moved to the "De facto" category or the "Occupied". All of the de facto countries and occupied territories are disputed, so to maintain a separate category for Western Sahara is misleading. We can add a footnote if you like, to clarify that "Southern Provinces" refers to part of Western Sahara.

I disagree, in any case, that the compromise that I just proposed above is really necessary. The Gaza Strip is listed as an occupied territory even though only its borders and waters are occupied, not its land. The West Bank is listed as occupied even though it is partially under the administration of the State of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of Western Sahara, including all major population centers and its entire coastline are occupied territory. That the Free Zone also exists is already addressed by having the SADR listed under the "De facto" category, just like Palestine is listed under the "UN observer" category. [[User:JECE|JECE]] ([[User talk:JECE|talk]]) 16:49, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:On reflection, the compromise that I proposed above actually isn't NPOV since 'Southern Provinces' is a propaganda term promoted by the occupying power. I maintain that the only logical and NPOV course of action is to merge Western Sahara into the "Occupied" category. [[User:JECE|JECE]] ([[User talk:JECE|talk]]) 04:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

::Your edit is highly controversial, it clearly violates the [[WP:NPOV]] policy. I will clarify things as follows:
::1. [[State of Palestine|Palestine]] and [[Western Sahara]] do not share the same political situation. If we compare them directly, we are basically comparing apples with oranges.
::2. Palestine is an UN Observer State. The United Nations considers it to be a non-member state ([https://www.un.org/en/about-us/non-member-states link]) under Israeli occupation. Although some Western countries do not recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, the UN and the majority of the UN member states [[International recognition of the State of Palestine|recognise Palestine as a proper sovereign state]].
::3. On the other hand, the [[Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic]] is a de facto state lacking international recognition. Currently, only [[International recognition of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic|45 UN member states recognise the SADR as a sovereign state]]. The UN and the majority of the UN member states do not recognise the SADR as a proper sovereign state.
::4. The UN does not recognise Morocco's sovereignty claim over Western Sahara either. The territory as a whole is considered a [[United Nations list of non-self-governing territories|Non-Self-Governing Territory]] (NSGT) still waiting for decolonisation.
::5. Although the Gaza Strip is under de facto [[Hamas]] control, its port, territorial waters and airspace are under Israeli control. The West Bank is only partially administered by the [[Palestinian National Authority]], Israel also has control over this territory. Both territories are considered occupied territories by the UN and the majority of the UN member states.
::6. The UN respects the local Sahrawi people's right of [[self-determination]], hence the portion under Moroccan control (western 80%) is considered an "occupied area". However, unlike the [[Gaza Strip]], the [[West Bank]] or the [[Golan Heights]], this "occupied area" does not currently belong to any sovereign state, it is an "occupied area" of a disputed territory. This is also the reason why no flag is used to represent Western Sahara while the Palestinian flag and Syrian flag are used to represent the other territories.
::7. On the other hand, the [[Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic]] does have control over the eastern portion (approx. 20%) of the territory. Clearly, we cannot classify the whole territory as an occupied territory, otherwise we are siding with the SADR. If we really want to include a part of Western Sahara under "occupied territory" while maintaining [[WP:NPOV]], the only way we can do it is dividing the territory into four different smaller territories:
::(1) {{flagicon|SADR}} [[Southern Provinces|Moroccan-occupied Sahara]] – list under "occupied territory" (SADR's position regarding the portion under Moroccan control)
::(2) {{flagicon|Morocco}} [[Southern Provinces]] – list under "internal territory" (Morocco's position regarding the portion under its control)
::(3) {{flagicon|SADR}} [[Free Zone (region)|Free Zone]] – list under "internal territory" (SADR's position regarding the portion under its control)
::(4) {{flagicon|Morocco}} [[Free Zone (region)|SADR-occupied Sahara]] – list under "occupied territory" (Morocco's position regarding the portion under SADR control)
::As you can see, (1) and (2) are technically the same thing, (3) and (4) are also the same thing. Do we really need to complicate things by breaking up [[Western Sahara]] into pieces and list each of them under different categories with an explanatory note? I don't think so. Listing the whole territory (without a flag to avoid taking sides) under "disputed territory" with an explanatory note is the most neutral and straightforward option.
::N.B. The current version has been stable since September 2021, there is no reason to change it to a more complicated and confusing one. [[User:Vic Park|Vic Park]] ([[User talk:Vic Park|talk]]) 12:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Vic Park|Vic Park]] You're making this way too complicated than it really is. As I mentioned in an edit summary a few weeks ago, Western Sahara is described as occupied by the United Nations [https://undocs.org/en/A/RES/35/19], scholars [https://books.google.com/books?id=tGQJBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT264] [http://www.rulac.org/browse/conflicts/military-occupation-of-western-sahara-by-morocco] [https://books.google.com/books?id=Z57qDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT10] [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2015/534995/EXPO_STU(2015)534995_EN.pdf], the press and (backed up by such proper citations) the Wikipedia pages for [[Western Sahara]] & [[List of military occupations]]. If you have NPOV concerns about those sources, raise them in the main articles on the subjects. The template of a stub article should simply reflect what the main, properly sourced articles on the subjects of Western Sahara and military occupations affirm.
:::Regarding your specific points:
:::1., 2. and 3. are not relevant. I dispute some of your characterization in certain respects (84 is legally more important than 45, SADR as an [[Member states of the African Union|AU member state]]), but won't get into those issues since they are not relevant to the question of whether Western Sahara is occupied territory. SADR is already listed in the template as a de facto country. I would also point out that while Palestine has gained widespread international recognition, its borders are still undefined.
:::4. and 5. and the first sentence of 6. only seem relevant as evidence for listing Western Sahara as occupied. That the UN recognizes Western Sahara as a Spanish NSGT pending decolonization can only be used as evidence for describing a Moroccan military administration of Western Sahara as an occupation. If the occupation of the Gaza Strip's port, territorial waters and airspace count as an occupation of the entire territory, then surely so does the occupation of Western Sahara's ports, territorial waters and airspace count as an occupation of the entire territory.
:::The second sentence of 6. is simply not true. It's not like Western Sahara is ''[[terra nullius]]''. Western Sahara is still legally considered sovereign Spanish territory, although the UN notes that the Spanish government considers itself exempt of all responsibility for Western Sahara. Even if it were true, note that East Jerusalem is on the list of occupied territories even though Jerusalem is recognized as neither Israeli nor Palestinian by the United Nations, despite your edit from July [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greater_Middle_East&diff=next&oldid=1088624406]. See [[Status of Jerusalem]] and [[Corpus separatum (Jerusalem)]].
:::The flag issue from the third section of 6. is not relevant since I am not currently proposing that we list Western Sahara alongside a flag.
:::On 7. I do not understand what you mean by this: "Clearly, we cannot classify the whole territory as an occupied territory, otherwise we are siding with the SADR." The SADR is proud of the [[Free Zone]], so why would it be 'siding with the SADR' to point out that the [[Free Zone]] is a sparsely populated sliver of arid desert? Again, we can add a footnote if you really think that it is important to point out that Morocco doesn't actually control the entire territory. We could add similar footnotes to the listings for the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Regarding your division:
:::(1) is identical to what you reverted, except with the Saharawi flag. Without the flag this option is NPOV and is what we should do.
:::(2) and (3) are just silly. The "Internal" section exclusively lists autonomous areas.
:::(4) goes against what reliable sources say and is actually not even the Moroccan position on the Free Zone, which the Moroccan government considers a buffer zone.
:::Regarding your ''nota bene'', you're flipping this on its head. Having a separate "Disputed" section is complicated and confusing. As I noted in my original edit summary from last month and in my original post above, so much of the Greater Middle East besides Western Sahara is also disputed. [[User:JECE|JECE]] ([[User talk:JECE|talk]]) 21:47, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

== South Sudan ==

The map includes South Sudan in Sudan. It should be updated. Or is South Sudan part of the Greater Middle East? [[User:Doremon764|Doremon764]] ([[User talk:Doremon764|talk]]) 12:25, 30 May 2023 (UTC)