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::::::Especially if they deny climate change. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 03:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::The climate is and always has been changing, could you please elaborate more than describing what's been occurring on Earth since it was formed approximately 4+ billion years ago. Thank you comrade. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 15:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
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:::{{ping|C9crab}} I will quote what another user said in a [[Talk:Laura Loomer#Can we get just one exculpatory quote in the lede?|similar conversation]] about a request to add more positive statements to the [[Laura Loomer]] Wikipedia article.
:::In that discussion, {{u|Aquillion}} wrote: {{tq|Your argument above seems to misunderstand how balance on Wikipedia works - our job is to reflect the overall tone, focus, and weight of the highest-quality sources available. If those sources are overwhelmingly negative, then a balanced lead will also be overwhelmingly negative ...}}
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::The only real problem with it is people mistaking it for an opinion, which is what's happened here, right? This seems to be something which happens frequently in this article. [[User:300AD|300AD]] ([[User talk:300AD|talk]]) 22:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
:We should at least explain why people vote for him.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*My 2 cents: The article, and especially the lead, are indeed driven by negative views of Trump, that reach an umprecedented level. That much is ackowledged but ''justified'' by those defending the current version -- which is enough to clarify that we should no longer be referring to this article as fair coverage of its subject (even though he is [[WP:BLP|a living person]].
:It caught my eye that much of the text focuses on a supposed scholarly consensus that he is a fascist. Now even if this were the supposed consensus, it is easy to find scholarly views who, even when critical of Trump, dispute the fascist label as inane, and have been doing so for years (at random: Harris, Jerry and Davidson, Carl and Fletcher, Bill and Harris, Paul, 2017-12, 1-17, Trump and American Fascism}, vol 7 of ''International Critical Thought'', DOI 10.1080/21598282.2017.1357491. Let alone that this preemptive allegation of fascism is now squarely in the "aged like milk" category -- not even the wildest theories about what Trump did on Jan 6 corroborate or substantiate the label, whereas "stood down amd won a second term, in coalition with dissatisfied libertarians and democrats, and survived assassonation attempts by disgruntled left-wing militiamen" scream out as the exact opposite of fascism. Let alone that there are actual authoritarian rulers in the world who don't get this much harping about fascist analogies in their articles. (And that even for many such regimes, the openly authoritarian ones, the label of fascism does not automatically take hold when simply vented by more or less levelheaded academics.)
:In addition: unless you're waiting out on a third and successful assassination, this article, and the lead above all, is overfocused on past events. There must be a path forward to where we at least agree on adding and subtracting elements that aren't/are part of a 2017 scare (or scaremongering). [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] ([[User talk:Dahn|talk]]) 08:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
== Religion in Donald Trump's life ==
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:Yes, it was. Thus far your entire history of editing attempts here have been to water down verbiage in the article that you find disagreeable. Not a good start. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
::What is your argument for why it is a mandyism, and also for why the essay should apply in this case? [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:04, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
:::[[WP:MANDY]] applies. After Heather Heyer was killed on August 12, Trump tweeted a four-minute statement blaming the "display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides". After two days of backlash he [https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-race-and-ethnicity-business-michael-pence-hate-groups-395f6966223043babc448e9eae97c6b8 he called] mmembers of the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists "criminals and thugs" on August 14. On August 15, he reverted to blaming both sides. Later he and his supporters claimed that "his fine people on both sides" didn't mean the white supremacists but the (invisible) people peacefully protesting the removal of Lee's statue. Quoting Mandy: Well, he would, wouldn't he? [[MOS:EDITORIAL]] also applies. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |<span style="color: #3200CC;">'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x</span>]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
::::Except NPR ran a story contemporaneous to this event wherein one of these (invisible) statue protestors was actually interviewed. He talked about how they were all very upset about the skinheads coming in and wrecking things when their concerns were much more bland, about preservation of history, etc. *NPR mind you* -- not exactly known for right wing propaganda. The sources are out there; you folks are just so blinded by hatred that you don't care. (I'm not a Trump fan btw, but I am concerned about the breakdown of our institutions including media that was in progress before he came along but which his presence has seemed to accelerate.) [[Special:Contributions/136.49.59.154|136.49.59.154]] ([[User talk:136.49.59.154|talk]]) 06:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
::::The article talks about the comments at the unite the right rally. We should mention all the essential details about what he said. Even if it was about some other time he said something, the biography of living persons policy says that articles must state when an allegation is denied. As WP:NOTMANDY notes
::::'The validity or invalidity of MANDY has been debated extensively by Wikipedia editors. Among their concerns is that MANDY contradicts [[Wikipedia:DENIALS|part of our BLP policy]] which currently states that when allegations are sourced well enough to be included in a BLP article, then ''"If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too."''' [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 00:21, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
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== Category: Golden Raspberry Award winners <span class="anchor" id="Category Golden Raspberry Awards"></span> ==
{{atop|Stale, category has been deleted. Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow. ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#888;">☎</span>]]
{{u|Vinnylospo}}, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1254122652&oldid=1254030926 this edit] is a 24-BRD violation. I didn't revert it, though, and opened this discussion instead. {{u|Mandruss}}, I think the category is justified because Trump received the Razzie for worst supporting actor for some truly [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9SFY2tumWA cringe-worthy, wet-lipped pouty work]. Two WP mentions: [[Ghosts Can't Do It#Accolades]] and [[Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Supporting Actor#1990s]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |<span style="color: #3200CC;">'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x</span>]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
The category has been [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_29#Category:Golden_Raspberry_Award_winners|proposed for deletion]], and so far it looks as though it's headed that way. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |<span style="color: #3200CC;">'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x</span>]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}▼
== Trump statue in Philadelphia ==
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::I can only think of [[Template:Neo-fascism]] instead. @[[User:Tataral|Tataral]], I ''did'' delete Trump from its "people" section a few weeks ago though and for a good reason. [[User:Biohistorian15|Biohistorian15]] ([[User talk:Biohistorian15|talk]]) 07:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
== Arbitration enforcement <span class="anchor" id="Morgankarki - arbitratation enforcement"></span> ==
{{ping|Morgankarki}} You're not following the current arbitration remidies: {{tq|You must follow the bold-revert-discuss cycle if your change is reverted. You may not reinstate your edit until you post a talk page message discussing your edit and have waited 24 hours from the time of this talk page message}}. You made a bold edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1255723208 here], but then edit warred to restore it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1255723876 here]. Please self-revert immediately and discuss on the talk page, otherwise you're in violation of the restrictions on this page. — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>]])''</sup> 09:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
:{{
::Yes, please do. — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>]])''</sup> 07:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
== Please re-write the entire first section. ==
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:This entire article needs re-written, but the introduction is a total disaster. Even aside from the partisan hackery, it is a hodgepodge of incoherent sentences that look like (and probably were) added disjointedly as time went on with little to no continuity with each other. Most of them are factoids that are irrelevant to a high altitude summary of the man's life and achievements. Embarrassing. [[User:The Pittsburgher|The Pittsburgher]] ([[User talk:The Pittsburgher|talk]]) 15:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:Specific suggestions, please. It's nigh impossible to rewrite an entire lead section to everyone's liking. Simple saying 'rewrite the entire lead' isn't going to get us anywhere. [[User:Cessaune|<span style="color:#f70a90">Cessaune</span>]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''<span style="color:#000000"><nowiki>[</nowiki>talk<nowiki>]</nowiki></span>''']] 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:The idea that a mythical "unbiased" lead section could exist that literally every Wikipedia would agree upon for such a polarizing political figure is absurd and preposterous. People act like shouting "bias"! is some kind of objective statement when it is essentially entirely subjective opinion. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 03:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
:{{ping|Nir007H}} There's only one way to get a re-write. You gotta put forward a proposal & see if it will get a consensus. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 03:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
:I may be drawn and quartered for speaking this heresy. I've long felt Wikipedia content policies are sufficiently vague, complex, nuanced, and self-contradictory as to be extremely vulnerable to the biases that we all have (anybody who claims to be without bias is either lying or completely lacking in self-awareness). That the policies prevent the effects of those biases is largely an illusion and a mass self-delusion. I've advocated massive overhaul of policy to simplify and streamline, and the silence has been deafening. Wikipedia's system of self-selected self-governance simply lacks the capacity for such massive change, and the [[WP:Wikimedia Foundation|Wikimedia Foundation]] will never intervene while Wikipedia is the most popular free encyclopedia on the web.{{pb}}If this article has been dominated by anti-Trump editors, the solution is more pro-Trump editors, people who are prepared to take the time to learn the policies and how to use them. [[WP:CONSENSUS]] is ''everything'' at Wikipedia. I've been saying this for many years and it seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia—merely following their leader's example. I say quit whining and do something that might have some effect. ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#888;">☎</span>]] 04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
:'''Comment''' I generally stay far away from Trump related articles because of my extremely strong prejudices against the man. But as much as it pains me to say this, I think the lead is problematic. It reads like it was written by the DNC. Most of what is in there belongs in the article. But not all of it belongs in the lead. Clearly I'm not the only one with these concerns as there are multiple editors, in multiple threads on this page raising similar concerns. If the article wasn't linked on the main page right now, I'd seriously consider slapping an NPOV tag on it. Tone matters. The lead reads like an indictment. The laundry list of everything the man has ever been accused of is UNDUE and should be condensed into more general statement noting his controversial history, statements, legal issues etc. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 05:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
== Serious issues with the impartiality of the article - Edit Requests due ==
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::You are correct in your criticism about impeachment convictions - I will edit my contribution to reflect this. [[User:Neutral Editor 645|Neutral Editor 645]] ([[User talk:Neutral Editor 645|talk]]) 10:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
:Everybody would be better off with one thread per proposed change. Combining them never works very well and consensus is hard enough to assess ''without'' combining them. Also, bring sources. ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#888;">☎</span>]] 18:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
▲{{abot}}
▲:That looks like [[wp:or]]. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
== False information regarding Russian collusion ==
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:The word "shifted" or similar could also be used here. It's worth mentioning in the lead because building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses is how Trump became famous within New York (consider the [[Grand Hyatt New York]], [[Trump Tower]], his Atlantic City casinos, [[40 Wall Street]], [[Trump International Hotel and Tower (New York City)|Trump International Hotel and Tower]], etc.), made his billions, and gained much of his name recognition. If he didn't pivot his father's company away from its previous business of houses and apartments, he wouldn't be the prominent figure he is today and most probably wouldn't know who he was. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::Interesting, this is the info that should be added on lead. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 01:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
== Infobox ==
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Idk if this has been discussed but [[Grover Cleveland]]'s infobox has both terms in one section but Trump's has 2 separate sections for each term. [[User:GamerKlim9716|GamerKlim9716]] ([[User talk:GamerKlim9716|talk]]) 02:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:Grover Cleveland has been discussed to death (does your platform not provide any way to search a page?). Until Trump's second inauguration, it's apples and oranges. ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#888;">☎</span>]] 02:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
▲{{atop|Stale. Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow. ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#888;">☎</span>]] 02:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)}}
▲{{atop|Stale. Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow. ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#888;">☎</span>]] 02:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)}}
:That was vandalism and was removed in short order. You don't need to come here with things like that. ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#888;">☎</span>]] 02:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)▼
{{abot}}
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I see the photos and discussion, but I must have missed where the fact are mentioned that Obama had the detention fencing built? - and used it as well. In fact some photos used in the media were from Obama's administration. [[Special:Contributions/99.33.126.209|99.33.126.209]] ([[User talk:99.33.126.209|talk]]) 05:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
== Want a shortcut to the bias response page? ==
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:::::::We have a whole page on it: [[Business career of Donald Trump]]. It is only appropriate for it to be at least a sentence in the lead of his bio. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 22:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::::We should include details on his business career insofar as it explains to readers how Trump became rich ("building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses") and became a household name (licensing his name and hosting ''The Apprentice''), which are directly relevant to his rise to political power. Mentioning the number of lawsuits he had is not relevant to this purpose. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Agree this sentence in the lead should be removed. [[User:Basil the Bat Lord|Basil the Bat Lord]] ([[User talk:Basil the Bat Lord|talk]]) 05:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
===Broader critique of the lead and article===
To be honest, I believe content like this in this lead, as well as a continued focus on it within the article, represents us sticking our heads in the sand as editors. We are now far beyond the 2016 election, when points like this were used to attack Trump by his political opponents, and have entered a stage where he is bringing about a generational re-alignment in American politics. This lead, this article, and this encyclopedia should seek to clearly explain ''why'' Trump appealed to the electorate in 2016 and why he continues to do so, and explain the roots of his movement, which has only grown over the last 8 years. In many places, we miss the forest for the trees: as many political scientists and historians have concluded, Trump won not because he was racist and his voters were too, but because his message exploited an absence within the political establishment of anyone speaking to the interests of the population. We need to weave his ascendancy together with the facts of 40 years of stagnant wages, the financial crash of 2008, the abandonment of the Rust Belt, and the declining living standards of the working class. I write a lot of this up to [[WP:RECENTISM]], but now that he was elected a second time, it is clear that he isn't an aberration but a key figure in U.S. history, and our encyclopedia should reflect this. Perhaps I am asking too much for the nature of this project, but I think this is important, and hope this article improves along these lines in the years of chaos to come. Rant over. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]])
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This article is one of the best examples of why I no longer contribute to Wikipedia. It is completely one-sided propaganda with many un-referenced negative statements. This could easily be a press release from the DNC. Shameful. [[Special:Contributions/2600:6C50:47F:6478:6429:FB35:D71F:D895|2600:6C50:47F:6478:6429:FB35:D71F:D895]] ([[User talk:2600:6C50:47F:6478:6429:FB35:D71F:D895|talk]]) 02:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}
== Redirect template ==
Not sure why {{tl|other uses}} would be changed to <nowiki>{{redirect|President Trump|other uses|Donald Trump (disambiguation)}}</nowiki>. There aren't any other Presidents with that last name. '''''[[User:LilianaUwU|<span style="font-family:default;color:#246BCE;">Liliana</span><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF1493;">UwU</span>]]''''' <sup>([[User talk:LilianaUwU|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/LilianaUwU|contributions]])</sup> 06:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
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== Public Image#Incitement of Violence ==
I am unsure what any of the text of this section has to do with "Public Image". Could someone clarify this for me? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
== Conflict of interest section ==
"During Trump's term in office, he visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days, one visit for every 3.4 days of his presidency"
This includes his private residences, such as Mar-a-lago. This does not necessarily equate to a conflict of interest and should not be in the section. This might be substantial evidence enough for political op-eds, but not Wikipedia.
It could be phrased like 'Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties'.
In-fact, alot of this article could be written in a manner similar to this.
[[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|talk]]) 07:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
:The source does not say "Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties". It does, however, exactly say "Trump has visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days of his presidency, or one visit every 3.4 days. That means that he has visited on about two days of every week of his presidency." What you are saying it should be changed to is [[WP:OR]] and potentially [[WP:SYNTH]]. Unless, of course, you can provide a source that directly states it. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd">SmittenGalaxy</span>]] <span style="font-weight:bold">|</span> [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-style:italic; color:#000080">talk!</span>]] 07:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
::I am having some difficulty parsing this source. The main thrust of mentioning his visits to the private properties is that it was leisure when he said he would be busy, and that it was costly to the taxpayer to have him travel there. It seems to be a slightly unnatural reading to say him visiting a property every 3.4 days constitutes a conflict of interest. Tell me if I'm wrong. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
:::It relates to earlier in the paragraph, talking about how he was sued for violation of the [[Domestic Emoluments Clause]] and [[Foreign Emoluments Clause]]. It does read a bit strange when you only read that specific part of the source; it does go on later to explain more about this, so if anything, it should be expanded to include that as opposed to removed. I will however leave that to someone more experienced than me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd">SmittenGalaxy</span>]] <span style="font-weight:bold">|</span> [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-style:italic; color:#000080">talk!</span>]] 08:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
::::I think it's too SYNTHY to use it as evidence of him violating those clauses unless a RS makes that connection. What do you think? Or just slap on a {{context needed}} and leave it at that? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::That's probably the best option for now, if it weren't as late I'd probably go in and rework that section myself. But it seems sufficient to me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd">SmittenGalaxy</span>]] <span style="font-weight:bold">|</span> [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-style:italic; color:#000080">talk!</span>]] 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1256116394&oldid=1256116195 Added it in] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
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