Talk:History of skiing

Cul-de-sac links—2003

The amount of cul-de-sac links should really be cut down

Egil 10:57 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

When?—2004

Removed the comments: "When?" after the following as clearly should be in discussion not article:

In Austria centers of skiing activities were Mürzzuschlag and Semmering. When???

In the 19th century the Telemark ski revolutionized alpine skiing, being the first ski with a remarkable waist making it much easier for skiers to turn. When???

Dainamo 18:24, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Deleted the sentence: In Austria centers of skiing activities were Mürzzuschlag and Semmering. and put a sentence concerning the first ski ascent of a significant mountain in the Mürzzuschlag/Semmering region (1891) in the chronological list. Crampon 21:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ancient types of Skis

The terms are propably obsolete of wrong. "West siberian Ugro-Lapp" ski type for example. Which people are "Ugro-Lapp" referring? If this means Lapps (Sami people) used this type, how is this type West Siberian? Lapps are far away from West Siberia. According to modern science it is very questionable to claim even their ancestors are from there. Lapps have been living in Fennoscandia for thousands of years. And if "Ugro" means the (eastern) "ugric" branch of Fenno-Ugric languages, it still makes no sense. None of the Fenno-ugric speakers lives in any part of Siberia. (It is a wider language family, the Uralic languages, who has a group of speakers (Samoyeds) in Siberia.) It makes no sense to claim that a type historically used by people who are not located in Siberia is "west siberian type". 193.65.112.51 16:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

So are the first indications of the existence of skis 5000 or 8000 years old? Junglehungry (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the Holmenkollen Ski Museum recent investigations and C14 analyses have pushed the evidence of skis back from 5000 to 8000 BCE, but I have so far only seen their article [1] (in Norwegian) and no primary reference. Gabriel Kielland (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Any news on this? The article still contradicts itself! Junglehungry (talk) 23:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Austrian Ski pioneers

The austrian part should be removed and changed simipily to ski proneers. With this done notables from other nationalities could be added.

In late 1939, the USSR invades its small north-eastern neighbor Finland

USSR never invaded Finland, as the their attack was stopped on mentioned time. Also Finland is to Noth-west when looking from Russia (former USSR). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.153.21.120 (talk) 09:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Sovjet attacked Finland. After the war Finland had to give up territories to Sovjet, no held by Russia. --Erik den yngre (talk) 14:08, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Citations needed

Hi, thanks for adding more entries to the timeline. This article already has a "refimprove" on it, but we are seeing the unreferenced content increase rather than decrease. New unreferenced content is being added, much of it statements judgement, which are in particular need of backing up. For example "Salomon releases the Salomon SX91, beginning a decade-long run of rear-entry ski boots being the equipment to beat ... Salomon introduces the first successful Twin-tip ski. This eventually leads to a revival of skiing's popularity in comparison with snowboarding." I take it in good faith that this is all true, but it needs refs. Could the editors who just added this provide some verification? --Cornellier (talk) 22:18, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Narrative

Now that the timeline has been edited to include mostly just cited information, I propose to convert it from a list of bullet points to a narrative.

Snowshoe race?

Why is there a picture of a snowshoe race flier listed as a ski race? Doesn't seem appropriate.Mrhyak (talk) 15:12, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I did not place that graphic, which is definitely a candidate for deletion, but I believe the idea is that in "ye olden days" the word "snow shoe" was sometimes used to mean "ski". That would have to be cited to make sense, of course. --Cornellier (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

China

Sombody deleted this from intro: "Although modern skiing has evolved from beginnings in [[Scandinavia]], it may have been practised as early as 600 BC in [[Daxing'anling]], in what is now [[China]].<ref>{{cite web|title=Ancient Ice Sports|url=http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/142Kaleidoscope1348.html|accessdate=1 October 2012}}</ref>" That is OK for me, but should the point be reinserted somewhere or is the source not reliable? --Erik den yngre (talk) 08:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

It should stay with a cleaned-up reference. See also: these images and from Xinhua. User:HopsonRoad 13:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The claim that the Xinjiang rock paintings are 10000 years old are strongly contested. New research published in 2016 suggest that the paintings are most likely 4000-5250 years old MacArthur Jr. (talk) 10:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC) MacArthur Jr.

References

First "alpine ski club"?

A new claim has been introduced into this article by User:Clarkenorman that Kiandra, Australia was the site of the world's first "alpine ski club." This claim seems to be based primarily on a self-published work, seen at WORLD’S FIRST ALPINE SKI CLUB Second Edition By Norman W Clarke, contrary to WP:Reliable sources. The article contains rebuttals of the earlier edition on the subject by the same author, with counter-rebuttals. Note that the author is probably the same person, who has inserted the material here. The other source, the Historical Dictionary of Skiing, does not mention a ski club in connection with Kiandra. The commented out material is:

"Early skiing in Kiandra also featured competition, in fact a type of competition that was far ahead of its time." and "I would like to commend you for having organised the first Alpine ski races in the history of our sport." <ref>FIS letter published "World's First Alpine Ski Club" second edition ISBN 9780646588421</ref><ref>{{cite book|author=E. John B. Allen|title=Historical Dictionary of Skiing|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=YTW-Cpm2e1oC&pg=PR35|year=2011|publisher=Scarecrow Press|page=35}}</ref>

Even if the matter were settled and the source was reliable, the claim "alpine" is itself questionable, since the art of skiing had not yet specialized into cross-country and alpine at that point. I have commented out the section making this claim, until other editors can arrive at a consensus. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:29, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Alpine skiing became a separate discipline around 1900, so it is a bit odd to denote this an "alpine" ski club. And competitions in Australia may have been "hill races" but certainly not the first. --— Erik Jr. 19:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree the sources seem inadequate for the claims made. What evidence is there that "the author is probably the same person, who has inserted the material here"? --Cornellier (talk) 19:53, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Cornellier, the username is Clarkenorman, the author's name is Norman W Clarke. User:HopsonRoad 00:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I question the relevance to the fact that I am a self published author and a contributor to these pages. I do not sell my books for profit or costs.

“The World’s first Alpine Ski Club” second edition is published and free on the net. Kiandra - Gold fields to Ski Fields was a gift to the Kiandra Ski Club. --Clarkenorman (talk) 09:27, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I believe that the two most authoritative bodies on the history of skiing are:

“The Holmenkollen Museum of Norway” and the “Federation of International Skiing” Switzerland.

The word “alpine” is only used as a book title to differentiate between – water – mountain or cross country skiing. Example: For the Kiandra Club’s 150th anniversary the “Federation of International Skiing” used the words “Kiandra's inaugural position in alpine skiing in the world.”

At the founding of the “Norwegian Holmenkollen Ski Museum” in 1923 it was accepted, then published in numerous editorials, that the first recreational ski club in the world was the “Christiana Ski Club of Norway” formed in 1885.

In 1955 the Kiandra Ski Club challenged the Norwegians, claiming a club in or before 1870.

In 1972 America claimed an alpine club commencing in January 1861. This drew a response from the Holmenkollen Museum, declaring the existence of a Norwegian club, described as the “Trysil Skytte og Skiloberforning” having been founded with 52 named members, in May of 1861.

America withdrew its 1861 claim after the Museum proclaimed that it would only recognize a club providing it could fulfill the three requirements described by leading encyclopaedias and dictionaries.

(a) It could name a group of members (a group being more than a pair).

(b) The named group could demonstrate organization over a continuing period.

(c) The named group could demonstrate participation for a singular common purpose. Example - Skiing.

In 2005 the Kiandra club supplied all requirements illustrating it was also formed in the summer of 1860/1861. The museum accepted that Norway and Australia had the world’s first ski clubs formed in the same year.

The “Trysil Skytte og Skiloberforning” was later found to be a military shooting and skiing organization which did not ski until 1862.

The “Inderøens Skiløberforening” claim should be removed as it does not yet meet these requirements.

These facts, letters and complete references to my claims are available free on the internet under “The World’s first Alpine Ski Club” second edition ISBN 9780646588421 --Clarkenorman (talk) 04:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I will consult Norwegian sources later. Perhaps there was a skiing club in Kiandra in 1861, but the notion of "alpine" skiing was established around 1900 or later. --— Erik Jr. 10:44, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Vaage (1952) mentions a Carl Christian Bjerknes that went to dig gold in Australia in 1855 and use skis at Kiandra. Gold miners there had competitions racing downhill in a straihgt line, perhaps aroudn 1860. They did not have proper bindings so could not make turns as in slalom. Norwegian Amundsen was also in Kiandra around 1860 and he had a ski workshop there. In 1901 the Alpine tourist club of NSW made a trip to Kiandra, but this appears to be a mountaineering club, not a skiing club. — Erik Jr. 11:10, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Vaage writes that the bindings used at Kiandra were very simple or basic, only a rope across the toes. The straight line downhill races at Kiandra continued until 1900 when proper bindings were introduced by Borre Winther of Kristiansand, Norway. --— Erik Jr. 15:33, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Molstad (1988) writes that there were ski "carnevals" (shows) in Kiandra from 1860 or 1861, while there were regular XC and jumping compitions from 1878. Jens (James) Olsen from Tjølling, Norway, was the first ski manufacturer in AUstralia, according to Molstad. --— Erik Jr. 15:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:Clarkenorman and Erik Jr., the issue here is a question of proper sourcing. It appears that Mr. Clarke is new to Wikipedia and may not be familiar with what's considered to be a reliable source in Wikipedia and the principle of exclusion of original research from Wikipedia. Mr. Clarke's work, WORLD’S FIRST ALPINE SKI CLUB Second Edition By Norman W Clarke, is interesting to read, but does not qualify as a reliable source. One could use the material cited within that report, except that it is based on unpublished material and represents original research. I suggest turning to other, published sources to verify the claim and characterize it in a manner that does not constitute promotion of the claim. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:42, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

This works for me, as a reliable source: Neubauer, Ian Lloyd (August 25, 2011). "The Long Run: Australia's Storied Ski Heaven". Time. Time, Inc. Retrieved 2015-12-27. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 17:25, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Norwegian gold miners founded the Kiandra Snowshoe Club in the early 1860s. The Monaro Mercury 29 July 1861 reported about a downhill show/race at Kiandra, according to Kjærnsli (2000). --— Erik Jr. 18:39, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Vaage (1979) writes that a Kiandra Snow (or Snowshoe) club was founded around 1870, according to Vaage sources are unclear about who founded the club and other details. --— Erik Jr. 20:28, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

It is interesting to note that now you are prepared to accept that skiing was established in Australia in 1861 with the reference: THE LONG RUN: Australia's Storied Ski Heaven. By Ian Lloyd Neubauer dated Thursday, Aug. 25, 2011.

This article was accepted as being reliable while only quoting one source kpsc1861.org.au. This is the website of KIANDRA PIONEER SKI CLUB 1861.

This club holds the original 2006 letter from the Holmenkollen Museum which confirms that the club was formed in 1861. It also holds the original letter from the President of the Federation of International Skiing.

As these letters were loaned to me to publish they must be considered as being reliable.

I must take this opportunity to state that hills or mountains, rope bindings or turning ability, has no bearing on this discussion. --Clarkenorman (talk) 22:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:Clarkenorman, I understand your puzzlement. The discussion is not whether the material that you reported is correct, it's about whether the source used in WP is regarded as reliable, according to the rules, described in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. A news source, like TIME, is expected to verify the material that it reports on. There were several news accounts from Australian newspapers, which are not readily available on line, that would have also been regarded as reliable. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 00:00, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

From the scholarly sources and the Time article it is not clear to me if the Kiandra skiing club was in fact established in 1861. It is however clear that there were some kind of skiing (downhill) races (for show or for real competition) at Kiandra in 1861, so this fact we can safely add to the article. And it was not an alpine skiing club as the concept did not exist in the 1860s. I think we still need better sources to include the claim that it was the first ever skiing club. --— Erik Jr. 15:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Time cited it as, the "world's longest continuously running ski club", which it probably is. Since further description is provided in the link, it doesn't need to be developed in this article's timeline. I suggest that we not make further claims, here. User:HopsonRoad 18:12, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

In 2005 the Kiandra club supplied 13 pages of requirements completely illustrating it was formed in the summer of 1860/1861.

Copies of these pages were sent by the museum to Professor R. Huntford of Cambridge University, author of “Two Planks and a Passion”, for advice.

The museum accepted, with a signed document, that a ski club was formed in 1861 in Australia.

The same cannot be said about the Inderøens Skiløberforening claimed to be founded in the Trøndelag region of Norway.

This group was in fact 32 young men from the districts of Trøndelag and Inderøy, Norway. They were named, and occupations given, when in 1861 they joined the newly formed Centralforeningen (Central Association). This was basically a voluntary national service club designed to develop the nation’s strengths and abilities in terms of self defense. The main activities were shooting, gymnastics and a variety of sports including skiing.

There is no known evidence that this group, claiming to be a ski club, ever met for the sole purposes of skiing activities.

--Clarkenorman (talk) 00:22, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Sources list Inderøens skiløberlag as founded in 1861 or perhaps 1862, and they joined the "Centralforeningen" (now the "conferdation of sports") according to Centralforeningen's records for 1863. The Norwegian word "lag" translates as club or association, and sources refer to Inderøens as "skiklubb".--— Erik Jr. 00:32, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

I am very aware of all you have said, it is simply not good enough “1861 or perhaps 1862”for example.

Your sources appear to be secondary. Please find from which primary sources these secondary claims originated or follow the example set by the “Holmenkollen Ski Museum” which are:

If failing to present original dated club documentation, 1861 competition results, trophies or memorabilia then as previously quoted:

(a) name a group of members (a group being more than a pair).

(b) The named group must demonstrate organization over a continuing period.

(c) The named group could demonstrate participation for a singular common purpose. Example - Skiing.

An American club and the Trysil Skytte og Skiloberforning both withdrew their claims, after being unable to meet these reasonable conditions. I believe Wikipedia should consider doing this also.

I suggest that the Wikipedia 1861 line should read “The first identifiable ski club was formed in (Country name)”

I will not respond quickly so that other readers may voice an opinion". --Clarkenorman (talk) 04:37, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia should only quote information from reliable sources, we dont analyze information from sources to reach conclusions - that would be original research per synthesis. WP does not analyze or collect original source materials such as archival records or interviews. We used published materials such as books or newspaper reports. --— Erik Jr. 10:04, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Then tell me why WP does not accept published newsflashes from leading Ski authorities such as the FIS. It is becoming obvious that WP only accepts material that suits some. I am an author of six publications and I quote from primary sources not secondary material. Time magazine quoted many sections from my publications which are based only on fact. That is probably why they used KPSC as a source. I am the historian for that club.

The Kiandra Club remains the world's first in the world until other claims are based on primary evidence. The original 1861 line should not have been removed. --Clarkenorman (talk) 20:31, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

A source in WP is perhaps not the same as a source for a historian. Original material such as archives and interviews are not acceptable sources at WP. All material in WP must be verifiable by users. --— Erik Jr. 22:36, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Questionable source

I can't find: Saur, Lasse (1999): Norske ski - til glede og besvær. Research report, Høgskolen i Finnmark. Can anyone provide a link to it for other editors to inspect? It is used as a citation several times in this article, yet is hard to verify without the ability to inspect it. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:45, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Reliable even if not online. Available in Norway http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/a56196fbc94425a5d1935e06ddd53b46?index=1#0 --— Erik Jr. 19:42, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I have access to more scholarly sources on the topic, will inspect later to verify Saur's claim. Please remind me later. --— Erik Jr. 19:54, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Erik Jr.: Unfortunately, I can't see the source material at the link that you provided. Can you possibly send me a PDF to (deleted)@gmail.com? It's not just whether it's reliable, it's whether it's verifiable by another English-speaking editor. User:HopsonRoad 00:59, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, it is online at the national library only, not available as a PDF. --— Erik Jr. 10:38, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

"Birkebeiner" - movie

A new movie tried to recreate skiing 12th century style, trailer for those interested in the history of skiing. Not intended as commercial. --— Erik Jr. 16:31, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Interesting, but not very authentic-looking skis. They look distinctly modern with camber, side-cut and plastic bases. Exciting action, though! I haven't seen a good ski chase, since James Bond. User:HopsonRoad 03:51, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

I am not sure how authentic, there has been some criticisme from historians that the producer has taken some liberties with historical facts. I have too read up and see what kind of skis the Vikings actually used. I can also recommend Heros of Telemark for some good skiing action. --— Erik Jr. 10:36, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

At least, they were using a single pole. User:HopsonRoad 15:10, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

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Over-populated gallery section

Skiing in Scandinavia, 1767

Sami on skis ca. 1900.

Nanai hunter on asymmetrical skis, 1895

Nanai hunter, 1895

The Gallery section has a large collection of images, many of them redundant, some uncaptioned. I propose to prune most of those images, leaving only those that show a notable phase in history, not already illustrated above. I have tagged it, accordingly.

WP:GALLERY says on this topic:

Just as we seek to ensure that the prose of an article is clear, precise and engaging, galleries should be similarly well-crafted. Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to the article while avoiding similar or repetitive images unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made. Images should be captioned to explain their relevance to the article subject and to the theme of the gallery, and the gallery itself should be appropriately titled (unless its theme is clear from context). See Women's suffrage in New Zealand for an example of a good use of gallery.

Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Agree, go ahead! The 18th century image can be dropped. We should keep at least one (historical) image of Sami people skiing. --— Erik Jr. 17:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this article and checking in here, Erik Jr.

I suggest that we include only images that accurately depict skiing at certain periods in chronological order, not images depicting the type of skiing at the time a painting was made, projected back on historical characters, e.g. "Knud Bergslien's Birkebeiner escaping with the prince child", "The 1903 rendition of medieval Russian soldiers' use of skis to facilitate their movement during winter campaigns, by Sergey Ivanov", and "The Norse goddess Skaði hunts in the mountains on skis in an illustration (1901) by H. L. M."

The Sami woman on skis, adapted from Olaus Magnus, 1883, is probably not an accurate depiction. Is the image that you showed above, "Skiing in Scandinavia, 1767" more pertinent than "Depiction of Samis skiing, by John Bauer"?

Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 03:54, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Skiing as depicted in art is interesting but not documentary. Bergslien's Birkebeiner painting is romantic and far from realistic I think. Not sure about the 1767 painting, but does not seem fully realistic to me. Perhaps the "Fin paa Ski" is better, although newer. I mentioned Sami because the role of Sami people in developing skiing is often forgotten. — Erik Jr. 09:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I added a photo relating to Nansen's "Greenland on skis" expedition, that included two Sami expert skiers. — Erik Jr. 09:55, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I recommend an Asian image, as well from the Nanai people. It illustrates asymmetrical skis. BTW, I prefer the Bauer depiction of Sami skiing for transportation to the "Fin paa Ski" image, which depicts a skier for the entertainment of the postcard recipient. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:38, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Would be good to have a photo from Nanai people, the one shown is interesting but unfortunatly low quality photo. — Erik Jr. 16:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

There's one with better technical quality, poorer composition, but with symmetrical skis. I prefer the closer-in one with the asymmetrical skis. You? Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 21:41, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Not very easy to see that skis are asymmetrical, so I am indifferent. Perhaps some photos from Norway with asymmetrical skis? — Erik Jr. 14:50, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Ancient Ski Hunting

I had noticed the article is mostly heavily focused on Scandinavia, which is one of the likely possible origins of skiiing but few mention of Ski Hunting or other possible historic skiing regions. However Tuvan people in the Siberian parts, also had a very rich ancient skiing culture for at least 4 thousand years and used skiing to primarily hunt big game. Even to this day, they still use traditional ski technology to hunt elk as they have done continously for the past millennials. Is it noteworthy to include the ancient ski hunting culture of Tuvan people in the Altai mountains in this article? They have an interesting way to catch elk using skis and been doing that possibly back to 5 thousand years ago. Which looks to have been the early historic human use for skis - (hunting big game). [2]49.179.85.159 (talk) 01:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Chinese propaganda

I am concerned about the inclusion of CCP propaganda in this article. To call the "evidence" of ancient skiing in China highly questionable would be too generous by half. This propaganda was put out ahead of the Beijing Winter Olympics and is not remotely credible. The "cave painting" which is the only evidence ever mentioned about Chinese skiing, does not resemble a depiction of people skiing whatsoever. The best evidence of prehistoric skiing in Asia comes from Siberian peoples such as the Tuvans, who live mostly in Russia, NOT China. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:A871:E043:91FC:C87D (talk) 01:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

If what you say is true then do show research and evidence first. But don't just constantly push your pov or your unprofessional opinion without at least showing sources that those cave art is fake or not of skiiers. You sound like you are politically motivated but tell me, does this look like skiing to you? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_skiing#/media/File%3AAlta_Felszeichnung_Elch_und_Ski_(cropped).jpg ; in my opinion, that also barely looks like a skiier however it's not my place to push my pov. Professional scholars from (international skiiing history association) are saying that Tuvan people in Xinjiang region did ski in the distant past and not disputing it. [3] Wikipedia doesn't take political sides but record what scholars in this Field, are saying. None of them has ever said the Rock art is not of skiiers.49.180.247.61 (talk) 11:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)