Talk:Siege of Kőszeg

Uprising by the Janissaries or a powerful army collected in Vienna?

"After the final unsuccessful attack, the Turkish leadership were forced to decamp due to an uprising by the Janissaries." is written in the article Kőszeg.

I propose to check this information because it contradicts the information written in this article that sultan had not the courage to face a powerful army collected in Vienna.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:10, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I found that info in couple sources, but if you have reliable source about 'an uprising by the Janissaries', feel free to insert it as an alternative reason for Suleiman's withdrawal. Kebeta (talk) 14:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I think that your sources are quite reliable. If I find source about 'an uprising by the Janissaries' I will introduce it to the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:30, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

How does a comment about courage fit into your NPOV? Why not comment also that the Habsburg Emperor did not have the courage to face Ottomans so he fled to Vienna? So you think war is all about courage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.128.150 (talk) 00:13, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

It may be more appropriate use another word and to replace "courage" with more appropriate word (i.e. intention), regardless what source says. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:50, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, you are welcome to rewrite that info. IP, I tend to agree with you "that the Habsburg Emperor did not have the courage to face Ottomans", just find sources to back that claim, and add it into the article. --Kebeta (talk) 18:38, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Ottomans were not defeated

Funny, the text and the side bar are in contradiction. In sidebar it is claimed that the Ottomans were defeated and in the text just the reverse is implied. The fact (according to history books) is that although the defenders fought well the fort was finally captured by the Ottomans (Aug. 28) . I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:45, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

No, the fort wasn't captured. The outcome has two versions. In both version the Ottomans didn't captured the fort, but in one version they were allowed to raise the Turkish flag (only few Turks - token force). Anyway, Suleiman withdrew, and did not continue towards Vienna as previously planned, but homeward (nor he captured the fort - it was in the defenders hands all the time). Regards, Kebeta (talk) 10:39, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

This article needs a review by an expert. I checked several sources (Austrian historian Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall, British historian Lord Kinross, Romanian historian Nicolae Iorga as well as Turkish sources) Those sources don't agree with the two versions of the outcome presented in the article. According to sources Güns was captured by Pargalı İbrahim Pasha. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 21:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Then start disputing them already. Just bring here the source that you have checked, and we will all see them, and decide how to solve the problem (if there is one). I am not sure what expert are you expecting here? --Kebeta (talk) 21:45, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

A French translation of Jurischitz's own report of this siege written to his master Ferdinand can be found in Charriere vol i p 215 etc Also in Monumenta Hungariae Historica vol i p 169. The fort was formally capitulated. Jurischitz was a former ambassador to Ottoman Porte and was a good friend of Pargali Ibrahim Pasha, who was leading the siege. He used this to obtain very good conditions. Güns was not pillaged. Ten janissaries entered the forte and erected an Ottoman flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.196.36 (talk) 05:34, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The article talks about two versions of the outcome, but there is really one version. Someone who is more into Wikipedia should clean this article up. I have given sources above which are indisputable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bugur (talk • contribs) 05:43, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

RESULT

The result of this war is the Ottoman victory. Yes, the castle fought well, no one denies it, but as a result, the castle fell into Ottoman hands. Joseph von Hammer in his book Ottoman History 5th Volume (p.125-128) said that those who defended the city fought very well, but He says that the Ottomans achieved victory. Similarly, in Nicolae Jorga's book titled Invincible Turk Suleiman the Magnificent, he says that the Ottomans achieved a victory by far. Göktuğ538538 (talk) 08:06, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Please show your sources! Links, texts!

You always remove modern academic sources to overwrite them with your sources which are quite blurry and old, it is a vandalism to remove other historian views.

Joseph von Hammer is from 1800 clearly not a modern academic source (however it would be good to check what he wrote exactly), it is the same thing that you want use 500 years old sources from the personal history writer of the sultan who claimed the Hungarian army was 300,000 which is really irreal to praise more the sultan victory: Talk:Battle of Mohács#Hungarian army

Even your possible sockpuppet claimed that the Siege of Belgrade in 1456 was an pyrrhic Hungarian victory (however it stopped 70years the Ottoman advance in Hungary) and it claimed Turks won: Talk:Siege of Belgrade (1456)#"Turks won the field battle"?

The Koszeg Castle was not conquered, it was negotations and deal, (nominal victory) the Ottoman flag was raised to the caste but no Ottoman soldiers entered. After the deal, the Ottoman army moved toward in August to Sopron, Kismarton (these are more close to Vienna than Koszeg) toward Vienna (seems you have not so good local geography knowledge as I have as a native resident) so not true what you claimed that Ottomans went home due to the “winter” after a “picnic” (as you claimed, winter in August :)) and the Sultan changed direction because meantime the Germans gathered enough soldiers, so the defenders prevented the Ottoman advance toward Vienna due to this time waste for the sultan as it is in the article by modern history sources.

Very detailed Hungarian history source, use google translate: https://mek.oszk.hu/09400/09477/html/0013/963.html

What article next? Do you engaged to overwrite all Ottoman battle articles? I see you rewrite all Ottoman lost "just went home due to the weather from picnic" and you always reduce the number of Ottoman army and casualties while you always increase the number of enemy armies and casualties. OrionNimrod (talk) 08:38, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Wait a second, don't write so many things at once, I don't have translation skills and I have difficulty reading. Göktuğ538538 (talk) 08:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

First of all, the topic is not the siege of Belgrade and the Battle of Mohács, if you want to discuss them, I will, no problem. When it comes to the subject, Joseph von Hammer is a work still used by Modern Historians. You can't deny this. I gave you a reference from Joseph von Hammer's book. If you read Çekiç (p. 125-128), it is written that the castle resisted very well, but eventually surrendered and kissed Süleyman's hand. Download and review as PDF. Translation from Nicolae Jorga's book The Invincible Turk;

"After a few rainy days, the army began to besiege Guns Castle. Called by the besieged people, Nikolas Jurisich, or Nikolitza as the people call him, barely threw himself into the castle. It was impossible for him to resist for a long time. Because he had a thousand men in his hand. Just like he was in front of Vienna in 1529." From 21 August to 28 August, the Ottoman army showed all its war skills, this time in Güns, a less important and small castle. "Commander Nikolas" finally made a surrender agreement and handed over the castle. The Turks were very happy about this. Süleyman He didn't want to go all the way to Vienna after picking up Güns. The bad weather..."

Nicolae Jorga says this was a clear Ottoman victory.

Source: Nicolae Jorga, Invincible Turk, p.47-48 Göktuğ538538 (talk) 09:07, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

It would take me hours to write to you what Hammer said:D There is a translation problem and Hammer explained it in a very deep way. I am saying this, Hammer reports that the Castle resisted well but eventually surrendered to Suleiman. If you don't believe me, Ottoman History, Volume 5, p. Download .125-128 as pdf and check it out. It's not that hard, is it? Göktuğ538538 (talk) 09:12, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

To make it easier to understand, we can say this.

•The Ottomans captured the castle but had to return due to weather conditions. Or

•The Ottomans captured the Castle, but since the siege lasted for a long time, weather conditions caused problems and Suleiman ended the expedition. Göktuğ538538 (talk) 09:16, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/suleyman-i

The Encyclopedia of Islam, one of the world's greatest sources, does not say that Solomon was defeated:D Göktuğ538538 (talk) 09:55, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

None of that makes much of any sense. The siege was lifted, the castle remained in the hand of the defenders, the Ottoman attackers took no prize or pillage, and the only concession was a small parade through the fort and the hanging of a flag. More than that, the attacks slowed any forward momentum and the window for campaign season closed before anymore land could be taken.

So the attackers, most likely believing they were in a far worse situation than they were in sued for peace offering terms that were very, very beneficial to the defenders. Depending on what you believe their overall goal was they failed at both

1) Further advance to Vienna

and/or

2) Successful long distance raiding as they'd conducted elsewhere. Here, they gained nothing. No holdings, no territory, no plunder. Otherwise successful raids amounted here to raising their flag and leaving with nothing to show.

I'd consider it Pyrrhic tactical victory, followed by total withdrawal. Lostsandwich (talk) 10:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Read the Islamic Encyclopedia source I gave. It says that Suleiman captured Guns Castle but ended the campaign due to weather conditions. The siege was not lifted, I ask you to understand this now. Göktuğ538538 (talk) 10:37, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Göktuğ538538, please show readable links, readable pdfs.

On the way of the big Ottoman army dozens of Hungarian castle surrendered without any fight, so it was a surprise for the sultan when Koszeg this small castle decided to fight. The Ottomans not captured the castle, it was a deal, the Ottoman flag was raised but no Ottoman soldiers entered so the Ottomans moved toward to Vienna, just the sultan realized meantime the Germans gathered enough soldiers so attack of Vienna was prevented.

Also it is not correct to remove modern academic sources because you do not like them WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT OrionNimrod (talk) 10:46, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Look, I accept modern sources. In the Islamic Encyclopedia source I posted, look at Suleiman's 1532 expedition and you will see that he captured Güns Castle. The source you cited also says that the Defenders Surrendered. Göktuğ538538 (talk) 10:51, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

You still did not provide readable links to your claim. I see your source did not exist: https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=cgl&sca_esv=564671357&q=Nicolae+Iorga+Invincible+Turk&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwim_s_0gqWBAxUK_bsIHXBeAeEQBSgAegQICBAB&biw=1912&bih=908&dpr=1 OrionNimrod (talk) 11:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

This is the book I'm talking about https://www.kitapyurdu.com/kitap/yenilmez-turk-kanuni-sultan-suleyman-cep-boy/248873.html

but I couldn't find it in English. In Turkish pdf; https://turuz.com/book/title/Qanuni+Sultan+Suleyman-Yenilmez+Turk-Nicolae+Jorga-Nilufer+Epcheli-2011-140s

item: 294

It's not too long, you can download the pdf and translate it. Göktuğ538538 (talk) 13:43, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Download the book in the link I gave as a pdf and translate Article 294. And I give you the source from the Islamic encyclopedia;

https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/suleyman-i

Read about Suleiman's 1532 campaign, he says he conquered the Guns castle but ended the campaign due to weather conditions Göktuğ538538 (talk) 13:47, 12 September 2023 (UTC)