Talk:France

Guidelines for editing the France article

• Units in metric should be spelled out with the converted Imperial units abbreviated in parentheses per Manual of Style.
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• All sections are a summary of more detailed articles. If you find any points missing, please add it in the section's main article rather than on this page to keep this page size within reasonable limits.

Conventions Problem

It is stated that cars are driven on the right, when the United Kingdom is the only place where they are driven on the left. This may have something to do with the country's proximity, but it is excessive detail and somewhat laughable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.222.173 (talk) 12:55, 17 June 2008 (GMT) (UTC)

Actually, there are quite a lot of countries that drive on the left. To name a few: Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Thailand, India and Japan. 80.7.186.169 (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Coat of arms

I'm removing the coat of arms, since it has hardly ever been used by officials and is unknown to French people. It could be replaced with a image of a rooster, or a bust of Marianne. If you really want a coat of arms though, I guess Frenchmen would recognise the middle-age royal coat of arms as their own.--Yitscar (talk) 14:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You should put the coat of arms back. How can it be unknown to French people, it's on the front of all French passports! Also if someone wants to know what the current coat of arms of the French Republic is, where do you suggest they look it up?Jarby (talk) 15:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm reverting this edit. This is the official coat of arms of France, no matter which coat of arms Yitscar recognises best. JdeJ (talk) 15:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know they were on our passports. Like I said, I didn't know anything about it. The french article about them says that they aren't official, although it does say they figure on our passports. But it doesn't quote any source.

The article about French symbols suggests that the fleur de lys was the only offical coat of arms, although, again no sources are quoted. the same page presents the French logotype, which is used on every government letterhead, and thus fills the role of a coat of arms. (it is used as such in fr:Catégorie:France)

Now, I not dead set on this topic, it's just that when I opened the top page about my coutry and found something I had never heard about, it felt strange. I guess it would be OK to just mention 'unofficial coat of arms', but it would be better to replace it with the logotype--Yitscar (talk) 22:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure it's on our passports, but it's its only usage. I've never seen it elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.238.133.4 (talk) 17:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Intro too long

Don't you thik the intro is too long compared to other countries one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.226.32.57 (talk) 14:12, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

i totally agree.

--72.145.10.6 19:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. And with which countries are you comparing? The intro is marginally longer than for the United Kingdom and much shorter than for the USA. JdeJ 20:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is fine. France is one of the major countries anyway. (Coming from a British point of view.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.178.110 (talk) 15:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Overseas Departments

I have changed the wording in several articles. I hope that someone with expert knowledge will respond to this comment. I am trying to discover if there is a significant difference under the French constitution and law between metropolitan and overseas departments. I clear unambiguous statement.

Under international law, and the United States constitution, Alaska, and Hawaii, are indistinguishable from the 48 contiguous states. Hawaii is over 3000 km from the rest of the United States but is just as much a part of the country as is Long Island which lies just 4 km from the mainland.

However these articles—France and French overseas departments—leave room for confusion. I found this "Overseas departments—Martinique, Guadeloupe, Réunion, and French Guiana—have the same political status as metropolitan departments" statement in the article on , Metropolitan France.

Going with that I edited the other two articles. I am hoping that if I am wrong someone will correct these. But this ambiguity has been bothering me for months so I took action today.

Nwbeeson 16:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

French overseas departments have no difference with metropolitan departements. The government representative is also a prefect named by the prime minister, and citizen of overseas departements have elected representatives in both chambers of the French parliament, they also have the same duties and rights as any other French citizen. So yes, French overseas departments are indistinguishable from other French departements, although not part of Europe, they are also part of EU. This is unlike other overseas territorial collectivities (i.e. French Polynesia, New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, ...) where the French president is the head of state, but they have their own assembly and only defense, diplomatic representation and to some extent justice are shared with metropolitan France. Blastwizard 18:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Differences are tiny, but do exist : article 73 of the French Constitution is specifically covering the status of overseas departments. The specificities : statutes and regulations « may be adapted in the light of the specific characteristics and constraints of those units » overseas ; « units to which this article applies may be empowered by statute to determine themselves the rules applicable in their territory in a limited number of matters » (this second disposition does not apply to Réunion, which can be considered as "more" metropolitan than the three American overseas departments. Hence it is pefectly reasonable to distinguish metropolitan departments and overseas departments. French Tourist 20:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

fire me

"The football team is regarded as one of the most skillful teams in the world with one FIFA World Cup victory in 1998, one FIFA World Cup second place in 2006, and two European Championships in 1984 and 2000. They were also placed 2nd in the recent 2006 football world cup held in Germany."

It mentions them coming runners-up in the 2006 FIFA World Cup twice; the second mention really isn't necessary. --KatzMotel 09:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Redundancy removed. (That is redundant.)

Nwbeeson 16:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

audio of country name plz

i tried looking up the individual IPA sounds but combining them hurt my head, can a francophone record his/herself saying the country's name and tack that onto the article? tia! 130.85.249.236 05:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

There are so many regional variations that it wouldn't really make sense. If you really want an audio record, mail me--Yitscar (talk) 10:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

External links

There is a link to the Encyclopedia Brittanica's entry on France. This seems unnecessary since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, also, and that it is possible that Britannica is trying to get people to switch to their encyclopedia as a primary point of reference. Cool Blue^{Light my Fire!} 21:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

French Polynesia

Why is there such a big blue blob to represent French Polynesia on the 'Territory of the French Republic in the world' map?(80.189.121.40 00:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC))

Because of the EEZ. Rama 06:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

So why only French Polynesia? Surely you have to show all French territory with their the EEZ or none.(80.189.121.40 18:46, 4 May 2007 (UTC))

They are shown. But a 370-km distance does not show very much on a map at this scale. Rama 08:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh.

European Union Member states EEZ's, does not include overseas territories of members

If we're coloring territories by EEZ now, we have a lot of maps to redraw. → —RVJ 06:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see your problem. This is a map of metropolitan territories of European Union Member states. French Guiana, which is an integrate part of the French Republic, and about the size of Maine, does not show on this map. And we don't run of circle screaming about it. Rama 06:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

No problems here. I provide the EU EEZ map as an illustration that we do not color territories by EEZ. EEZs are not territorial. We do not even normally color territories by internal and territorial waters, but rather provide a dashed line when relevant. Even so, I don't believe Hoshie is showing us the EEZ around French Polynesia. I have not measured it, but I believe he is showing us the boundary of the sea which legally contains all islands which are French Polynesia. I believe this demarcates internal waters. We don't normally color these in, else Lake Michigan and Hudson Bay would be colored in. Hoshie does seem to recognize this by using a slightly different color than the land masses, though it would be probably still be better represented with a thin blue line surrounding the sea area. —RVJ 08:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, France's Antarctic territory is merely a claim, not internationally recognised.Soviet Canuckistan 14:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

True. I fixed the caption. —RVJ 05:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I tried to find a better wording than "claimed territories". This gives the impression that most of the territories are unrecognised claims, while the disputed part is a small territory of no practical relevance. France is not the Bosnian Serb republic. Rama 07:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL. Poor Antarctica. Actually, that claim is not so much disputed as simply not recognized. Disputes possibly pertaining to that map would include Bassas da India, Europa Island, Glorioso Islands,Juan de Nova Island, Mayotte, Tromelin Island, and more ;) Anyway, I think Hoshie's map is a serviceable illustration of France with DOM-TOM, when in an appropriate context. —RVJ 08:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Surely Adelie Land and all of the other territorial claims of France could at least be mentioned in the article. Perhaps a territorial claims section or something. It would save time looking all over wikipedia for Frances territories that may be disputed or unrecognized. And the French Southern and Antarctic Lands? If French Polynesia is mentioned shouldnt they be? I dont know their disputed or recognition status, so it is merely a suggestion. RoyalMate1 01:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Quality

I'm disappointed, Wikipedia, that France isn't of high enough quality to be a featured article. It's embarrassing. Let's get to work! 204.186.115.14 13:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I truly wish that Wikipedians who are not natives of a geographic zone did not insist on writing up completely original articles instead of using the translated information from the country's main language (when possible of course). All information pertaining to a geographic entity that is not consensus within that entity, should be on a separate page. Wikipedias are international with no geographical philosophical attachments, and hence should not create and override content coming from each geographic entity. France should come from the French, Britain should come from the Brits, etc. However, a International view of these geographic locals is completely appropriate, but on a separate page, so as to give a clear comparative view for readers. But that's just me, apparantly, wikis administrators encourage outside POV/facts to mixed in with local POV/facts resulting in coerced and badgered consensus due to demographic weight affecting this illusion of democracy. Not healthy...--Tallard 18:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No, no, no and no, certainly not, this would be the open door to national bias, there would be too much "Cocorico!" on this page. There is an absolute need for an external view at least to moderate over emphatic style and facts or worse. There are contributions of great quality by non French people on this page, and in many cases an external view is more likely to be neutral. Just get rid of the rubbish written by non French as well as French people, without looking where they come from. Wiki is not a brochure for a travel agency who sells flight and hotel nights to France, let's hear what others have to say, even if it is not that pleasant sometimes, as long as it is true verifiable and not blatantly biased, anyone should contribute to this page. Blastwizard 06:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I begun some cleanup of the article. I am removing duplicate facts from the section tagged as Trivia, but I feel some of it could be used in the article somehow. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

And what is it exactly that we so sorely lack on en: with respect to the French article ? The grammatical innovations like "Avec 58 réacteurs nucléaires, toutes exploitées par EDF, la France possède..." ? The polish of it ("Bibliographie A réécrire.") ? The neutral tone ("...elle a influencé les révolutions américaines9, puis la Révolution française a insufflé l'élan et l'exemple démocratique dans le monde entier, développant des valeurs de liberté, d'égalité, de fraternité et de laïcité. La culture française rayonne au-delà du cadre européen...") ?

And fr:France is an excellent article by fr: standards. It is quite factual, generally rather exact and the tone is, in fact, much less lyrical and tendentious than on some other articles. I shiver at the idea of the Breton nationalist oafs propagating the quality of their articles of fr: onto en: being made into some sort of policy, for one example among many. Rama 07:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Well myself and most of the people I know don't think Brits and Canadians can't write a better article about France than the French, and I don't think Canadians can write a better article about Australia than Australians. The same as I don't want to read the French opinion of the United States or Spain. Assuming that outsiders know better than locals is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. That would be like asking China (being the most numerous of all) to write Britanica's entry on United Kingdom, just makes no sense. Outsiders opinions are of course VERY "interesting", and should be heard, but in a separate forum. So ok, some countries have ridiculous systems, Zimbabwe, China, Sudan, Afghanistan, but it's still their own country. If not by providing a separate forum for outside opinions, maybe at least have some kind of translation tool, so people can access local information and not only Americanised/Francised information. Because that is the reality, French are most numerous in WP:FR so it has a France slant, USers are most numerous on WP:EN so it has an American slant, and so on, there is no such thing as objectivity in these situations, the only option should be plurality instead of forced consensus' by demographic weight.--Tallard 12:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the ability to write a good article has much to do with your nationality of mother tongue. Much more so with your knowledge of the subject and your ability to write.

Given the standard of fr:, I am not no a hurry to give some sort of proeminence to the people who write there. And as you point yourself, your suggestion will lead to having no information on some countries. By the way, what are you going to do with Britanny, have it described by French people, or Breton nationalists ? If the later, which ones, the pro-nazi ones or the far-left who sleep with the ETA? Rama 13:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a collaborative work, between people with different backgrounds and origins, I would hate the article on France being only written by French people (like myself). The whole point is to obtain neutrality and objectivity (if it can exist), through editions and corrections, and sometimes arguments through talk pages. Granted, French people are more aware of what's going on in their own country, but it is as valuable to have and external view on the matter, which can only be provided by non-French contributors. This can also avoid all lyricism about the "Grandeur" of the country and other chauvinistic rubbish. I'm probably not the only one who is fed up with the schoolboys vandalism, but this is no way a justification to reserve the editing only to French people. First and foremost because it is against the philosophy of Wikipedia. Then because it is technically impossible to prove if an editor is French or not. Finally, it is a form of nationalism, I can already hear the sound of the boots. Blastwizard 15:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Productivity

I don't think is true: "Despite figures showing a higher productivity per hour worked than in the US..." Is there a source for this? If not, it should be removed. Headraine 03:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Look at the following table List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita_per_hour, there are some detailed publishing by the OECD but I don't think these are freely available. It is not that surprising when considering the high level of unemployment and short working hours in France in regards to its GDP. Blastwizard 08:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh ok, the difference is really slight. I guess that needs to be mentioned. Headraine 15:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Algeria & North Africa

We should add this section? All the French massacres and enslavement of North African people deserves that I suppose.

These people were never enslaved. Much as the rest of the Arab world and/or 3rd world, they were colonized.

Compared to the Spanish and England Empires? France did less 'damage' compared to them, yet England sugarcoat it's own history to make it's own history 'positive' and spreading democracy brings 'peace'. Just look at Iraq very peaceful ;) Phu2734 07:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, wikipedia is not about bashing each other and counting how many skeletons the other has in his closet, it is about facts and neutral point of view. As far I am concerned, I don't think this section should go in the France article, I don't think there are sections in other countries articles listing all their wrongdoings either. On the other hand, a balanced article on colonialism relating specific facts about exactions by all the different colonial empires (Portugal, Spain, Belgium, France, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Italy, Ottoman Empire, Germany, ...) belongs to wikipedia. Also, why only Algeria and North Africa? After all, France had colonies in other parts of the world (there are well documented exactions by France in other of its colonies such as Madagascar and Indochina); this looks like a bias from the start. Not a surprise, the suggestion for this section comes from an anonymous contributor whose IP address is in Turkey, this seem to be a recurrent theme amongst some contributors originating from this country. Blastwizard 09:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• No one should care about who did the most or less damages. It's a tragedy anyway. The point is this is supposed to describe France and summarise a bit it's background. Slavery does not make a strong case enough to enter the "history" section here, if we do we'll start having a huge article with neocons claiming for French policy in mideast to be included, Blairist to ask for Gaullism to be described, Turkish to mention the French stance on Armenian Genocide and so on.... Matthieu 09:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh I do believe numbers are absolutely essential because I know there have been major differences. One can not sweep this stuff under the rug, it must be dealt with, but in a neutral way. I believe all debates on the impacts of colonialism and imperialism should be centrifuged onto one single comparison page (in order to free up Country pages), such a comparison table could include: Number of sq-km conquered, previous ethnic distribution, number of resulting coutnries, native population drop (actual and percentage), common practises, religious attitude, duration of occupation, etc. No objectivity can be reached in colonialism debates looking only at one nation at a time, it must be done in relative terms. Just an idea...--Tallard 02:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Flag

Somebody changed the flag to Gaby tate rocks this world and blocked it.

It has now been fixed. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 01:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Architecture

In the paragraph describing the Baroque Architecture I suggest to be introduced a phrase about the French gardens (as the ones developed by Le Nôtre #REDIRECT [[1]]). Even if this is landscape architecture, the main aim was to change and integrate the environment into the buildings by using geometrical patterns to create optical illusions. This is probably the most original French contribution to the architecture. Opinions? BdB-18 15:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not, unfortunately I'm not so good with landscape architecture. Matthieu 13:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it is important, but before adding anything to the section, I would like to shorten it a bit

---

Government

The section on government need to mention that France has a bicameral judical branch (Conseil d'État and Constitutional Council). The two highest courts judge on different section of Constitutionality, decree for the former, law for the later life.

"enfant unique" policy pioneer

it should be pointed somewhere that the natality control used by france earned it the 1870 defeat against the outnumbering prussian. the demography policy changed france situation from the most populated european country to a medium population country. the shift was completed with germany becoming the new number one (82 million > 64 million). and it lasts today. Cliché Online 18:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There was never natality control or one-child policy in France. I don't know where you got that idea from. Besides, the gap between France and Germany has been narrowing over the past 60 years. In 1950, Germany (in its current borders) had 68,377,000 inhabitants whereas metropolitan France had only 41,624,500, which means that Germany had 64% more inhabitants than metropolitan France. In 2007, according to official estimates, Germany has 82,310,000 inhabitants whereas metropolitan France has 61,538,322, which means that Germany has now only 34% more inhabitants than France. By 2050, according to official population projections, metropolitan France should have slightly more than 70 million inhabitants whereas Germany should have slightly less than 70 million inhabitants, so France will be the most populated country in western Europe again (it was already the most populated before 1866). Godefroy 12:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

New European vector maps

You're invite to discuss a new series of vector maps to replace those currently used in Country infoboxes: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#New European vector maps. Thanks/wangi 12:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

What's wrong with the footnote in the infobox? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 05:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Gallery?

I remember it had been removed and now someone else posted it again. I don't remember who removed it but I would tend to agree on him that it's not required here and it making the page too heavy... and it's an encyclopedia, a source of information, not a picture gallery isn't it? I'm considering removing it. While I'm at it I added the comics part, if someone want to proofread it. Someone should do French cinema in the French culture part but I'm too lazy (and it would be too large anyway for me) to do it alone. Matthieu 12:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Trivia and ranking

Elements in these sections should be moved into relevant subsections IMO. I don't think we should keep these sections as such. Matthieu 13:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Public health

The text, "As of 2003, there are approximately 120,000 inhabitants of France who are living with AIDS [3]" misstates information at its source. It should say, "who are living with HIV/AIDS" or it could accurately read “who are living with HIV.” All persons with AIDS have HIV, but the reverse is not true, so the way the text now reads is significantly inaccurate. Drl1320 17:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The last UNAIDS report in 2006 (http://data.unaids.org/pub/GlobalReport/2006/2006_GR_ANN2_en.pdf) states that 130,000 "people are living with HIV". Maybe the data should be updated. Apart of this, you are totally right, so the sentence should indeed be changed. Bjam 1079 17:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It has been suggested that the french territory map be replaced with this one: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Outre-mer_en2.png and I think it is a sound move as Antartica, as someone pointed out, was internationalized by the Washington Treaty. Also, many other countries claim antartica (Argentina) but their claimed territory is not on their maps in wikipedia as claimed territory isn't territory. Zulu, King Of The Dwarf People 15:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Demography

the articles says: "With an estimated population of 64 million people, France is the 23rd most populous country in the world. France's largest cities are Paris, Marseille, Lyon, Toulouse, Nice, and Nantes." this is not true, the city of "Lilles" is the fourth biggest city of france, far biggest than Toulouse, Nice and Nantes. a french guy.

Lille metroarea is bigger than Nantes' and Nice's but Toulouse's now no4 (we're realistic here and aren't including Belgium and even parts of Germany in Lille metro of course). Matthieu 08:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

anyway, Lilles is far bigger than Nantes an Nice...

I'm sorry to tell you this but Bordeaux is bigger than Nantes ! :-) anonymous

Hey guys, you are not talking about the same thing, the city of Nantes (270,251 inhabitants) has a larger population than Lille (212,597 inhabitants) or Bordeaux (215,363 inhabitants) but its conurbation is smaller (Nantes: 544,932, Bordeaux: 800,000 and Lille: 1.000.900). Blastwizard (talk) 16:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Upset about the seventh economy in the world in 2005 reference

In the "Economy" section France is referred to as the "seventh largest economy" in the world in 2005 and as belonging to the G8 group of countries. I believe this is misleading. In nominal terms France's GDP ranks as 6th in the world behind the US, Japan, Germany, China, and UK (in that order). India's Nominal GDP ranking is far below that of France (less than half), India is not part of the G8 and India is still a (albeit rapidly) developing country. The time will come when India's economy will rightfully be included in the list but that time has not come yet.

Agree: I think it should remain 6th as most country pages cite the nominal GDP rather than the PPP GDP. I am going to change this in th infobox. --Mgill 03:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Never mind its fine as is :)--Mgill 03:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

France is not only devalued economically, but also historically. In the History section, the Merovingian as the oldest dynasty have disappeared altogether. Jadawin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.35.253 (talk) 20:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Religion question.

It states under "Demographics" that 51% of French citizens consider themselves Catholic, but a few lines under the article also states that "31% consider themselves atheist, while an additional 32% consider themselves agnostic".

The data provided conflicts with itself. Anyone have a good source to end this dilemma?

That kind of statistical conflict is inevitable in this context. Most people don't distinguish between atheism and agnosticism - indeed, there is no single satisfying definition of either of these terms. Furthermore, many atheists/agnostics have been baptized at an early age and consider themselves Catholic for that reason only. So statistics based on asking people about their religious affiliation are extremely unreliable. Attendance at religious events (mass, charities, whatever) is a much more accurate indicator of religious sentiment. --Targeman 20:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Economy of France

I find the sub-section titled "Economy of France" to be quite crude in general, limited in scope, and subjective. For instance, the first paragraph describes France as having substantial state involvement in economic affairs (a statement obviously taken from the CIA world fact book). While I don't necessarily disagree with the statement I don't think it is the single best description of the French economy and it depends highly on one's point of view. For instance that statement might be true from an American or British standpoint it is certainly less true from a Continental European standpoint. Furthermore, I feel that too much attention is devoted on minor points such as productivity, economic policies, unemployment... while entire sections of a very large economy are omitted (know-hows in aviation, rail, automobiles, defense industry, telecommunications, nuclear technology, construction, oil-drilling, agriculture, glassware, wine making, shipbuilding, retail, just to name a few that come to mind). While I don't expect too much detail in a sub-section of an article on a country I do expect to get to know what people do in this country. In general, the sub-section right now reads too much like a competition among generally rich countries over who is doing better while there is little information about the products that France manufactures and what their core competencies are. One last point concerns the drawn-out discussion and overemphasis on the fact that the GDP per capita of France is 30% lower than the United States. First, why should the US be the benchmark and not Switzerland or Luxembourg (which happens to be higher). Second, is a 30% difference statistically significant if one were to look at a cross-section of all countries. Third, is a 30% difference statistically significant if one were to look at a time-series of the two countries. For instance, the French GDP/Capita was higher than that of the United States in 1980 and just last year the gap was considerably reduced by fluctuations in currency (considerable appreciation of the Euro) and higher recent growth rates. Furthermore, the Economist World in 2007 shows France to have a higher GDP/Capita than the US. My point is that if this statistic is so transient it should be deemphasized.

Eiffel Tower

I find the comment "Symbol of France, the Eiffel tower" (under the picture) quite odd. Maybe it would be a good thing to remind in the comment that it's not an official symbol but more a recognizable sign of France, especially abroad. In other words, I think the word "symbol" should be changed.

Franco-Israeli relations

I'd don't know much about Isreal's relations with France. Some Info would be nice.Philippe Auguste 02:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

This would most definitely belong to Foreign relations of France (in fact you've got some material here).

The subject would deserve its own article, but it's tremendously complex and my experience with subjects even remotely linked to Israel suggests that it'll be difficult to work on this. Rama 08:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Mountains in France

I know this would be a question I should probably ask at the geography of france, but much more people see this so here is my question: I need a list of the mountains of france, the Pyrannees the Alps etc. is there a wikipage about mountains, or is there a list of french mountains somewhere?--LtWinters 00:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Readded the original comment. ^ Aowpr 17:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Pyrénées, Alpes, Vosges, Jura, Massif Armoricain...

france

i never been too france but i rlly want too i think it's a Nice place i want too go too Paris France too see the Eiffel Tower. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kersey.alex (talk • contribs) 01:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Erm, cool? Also, if it was intentional, awesome pun with Nice there. If it was unintentional, well, the pun was still funny. 74.112.200.188 21:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Vichy regime

This sentence "The Germans established a puppet regime under Marshal Philippe Pétain known as Vichy France" is false. As noted in the Vichy France article, a vote by the french National Assembly on July 10, 1940, granted extraordinary powers to Pétain... Philippe Pétain was willfully choosen by a strong majority of french députés and sénateurs, and the Vichy regime was established by Philippe Pétain. Arctur 16:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The regime was tolerated by the Germans because it did not contradict their policies, and they pressured to have their men put in key offices (Laval,...). And its rise was in circumstances less clear than a typical vote of the French parliament. "The Germans established a puppet regime" is oversimplistic, but so is the picture you render. Rama 07:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

France's Internet Usage

In France 70% of the academic world is using E-mail and internet in their universities. Since the 1980s, France’s high tech grands projets have touched on new areas, such as telecommunications and television. France Télécom was born in 1984 partly as a reaction against Germany’s refusal to share cable technology, and the High Definition Television (HDTV) program was launched in the late 1980s to compete against Japanese technical superiority. References: The Internet: Its Impact and Evaluation. Contributors: David Nicholas - editor, Ian Rowlands - editor. Publisher: Aslib/IMI. Place of Publication: London. Publication Year: 2000. France and European Integration: Towards a Transnational Polity?. Contributors: Michel R. Gueldry - author. Publisher: Praeger. Place of Publication: Westport, CT. Publication Year: 2001. Outrider2dx 03:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Empire Size

The 3rd paragraph of the Monarchy to Republic section states: "In the 19th and 20th centuries, its global colonial empire was the second largest in the world behind the British Empire. At its peak, between 1919 and 1939, the second French colonial empire extended over 12,347,000 square kilometres (4,767,000 sq mi) of land. Including metropolitan France, the total area of land under French sovereignty reached 12,898,000 square kilometres (4,980,000 sq mi) in the 1920s and 1930s, which is 8.6% of the world's land area." The Russian Empire, however, substantially exceeded this size at some 22,400,000 km². AnthroGael 20:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The Russian empire was almost completely metropolitan and was not a colonial empire per se, unlike the British and French empires. Med 20:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I had considered that as a possible explanation. However, I think it is incorrect to characterize Russian Imperialism as not entirely colonial. Apart from the decrease of close to 5.5 million km² of land because of the secession of many "colonized" countries, large and small (Kazakhstan, Armenia, Finland...), even today's Russia is composed of many regions of special autonomy because of historical and ethnic difference their autochthonous peoples contribute. If we include all types of these regions, more than half of Russia's current landmass would be non-metropolitan in terms of the Russian Empire where inorodtsy would not have had political power.AnthroGael 00:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Poland and Finland can hardly be considered colonial territories in the nineteenth century any more than Posen or Galicia were. Simply having non-Russian ethnicities ought not be sufficient for an area to be considered "colonial" rather than "metropolitan." However, the central Asian, Caucasian, and Far Eastern parts of the Russian Empire, at least, can be considered colonial, in that administration of these areas is directly comparable to colonial administration of the other powers. That being said, I would suggest changing the term to "its overseas colonial empire was the second largest in the world," as that would clearly exclude Russia, which had no overseas colonial empire. john k 07:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, thus I added 'overseas' in the article.AnthroGael 10:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Motto

Could "Fraternité" be alternatively translated as "brotherhood"? Not that there's any real confusion as to what "Fraternity" really means...I suppose that's nitpicking though. Antimatter--talk-- 05:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC) And make it freedom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.234.255 (talk) 03:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Area

From the CIA factbook: total: 643,427 sq km; 547,030 sq km (metropolitan France) The calculation to square miles is: 211,209 according to http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver5.htm#mk3 Vrac (talk) 20:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No offence, but CIA factbook is not really a reliable source of information and is full of factual inaccuracies. Why not stick to the official figures that are otherwise displayed. I would go for the IGN source, as it is the French equivalent to Ordnance Survey or US Geological Survey, whereas Cadastre is more like the Land registry. Blastwizard (talk) 07:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for using the best source (as long as it is properly referenced), I put those figures in with a source because multiple people were changing the numbers and without a citation, it's impossible to tell who is right, who is vandalizing, or where the numbers are coming from.... Vrac (talk) 07:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Combat

I think it's very important to point out that France would have lost both world wars if other countries did not come to its support. It's historically accurate that France's modern armed forces are not comparable to those of the other power countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damnliberals (talk • contribs) 00:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

1- Buy a better history book.

2- Go trolling somewhere else. FFMG (talk) 05:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

3- The other countries would have lost too without France. So this comment really doesn't make sense —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.145.86.254 (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a reason why they were called Allies...They were. 75.31.168.198 (talk) 23:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

I have noticed a lot of Vandalism on the article lately.
Should we not protect the page for a while? FFMG (talk) 05:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Formation / Independence?

This page shows the date of formation of the French state as 843, simply listed as "Formation of the French State" (though correctly linked to the Treaty of Verdun.) However, the french-language wiki leaves this as "Independence" rather than "Formation", and lists independence in 843 CE as from the Carolingian Empire. Should the English info box be brought in line with the French one? As is it seems to offer slightly different impressions at first glance, without further research into the main French history article or the Treaty of Verdun. Thoughts? Kirottu82 (talk) 18:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The concept of "independence" from the Carolingian Empire in 843 is completely anachronistic. 843 is the formation of the French State as a legal entity, so the English Wiki is better than the French Wiki on that issue. Godefroy (talk) 14:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Question about the beginning of the Religion section

It states: "France is a secular country as freedom of religion is a constitutional right, although some religious doctrines such as Scientology, Children of God, the Unification Church, and the Order of the Solar Temple are considered cults"

That sentence sounds truly strange. "Are considered cults", what? What does that sentence mean by cult? It makes it sound as if "cult" is something lesser and therefore those mentioned aren't really good enough to be seen as religions. I don't think such derogatory use of "cult" is appropriate for a proper article. It sounds awfully like the "folk" meaning of "myth", according to which myth is "lie". Similar case here, the childish folk meaning of "cult" is used. But! If that's not the case and french laws make a distinction between "religions" and "cults" then that should be specifically mentioned! Androg (talk) 03:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

From what I've read, the French government, like the German one, does officially call Scientology a 'cult', or at least something less than a bona fide religion, [2] although I'm not sure about the other sects this article mentions. It should probably be re-worded to say that it isn't us (that is, Wikipedia) who are necessarily considering them to be a cult, but rather the French government. AlexiusHoratius (talk) 04:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The French authorities use the terminology of sect for the designation of these groups and are not religions in the eyes of French legislators. There was a parliamentary commission, that was in charge of investigating these groups to evaluate the potential dangers and risks to public order on these sects. Need to find more about it and the findings of this commission, if anyone has references that would be good. Blastwizard (talk) 18:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes you're right, but the parlementary commission has been replaced by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIVILUDES. Thoses "cults" (we don't use this word) are watched by secret services, etc. But I heard recently that Scientology is not anymore considered as a sect (I belevied it was concidered as), no cult, just an association "loi 1901" which is a kind of non lucrative association (the standard one in fact). However, the Order of the Solar Temple is a sect, I don't know about the others.

Sorry for my english.Lpn- (talk) 16:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

+nap

These page is locked. I would advise you that it exists now a version in neapolitan, could you please add it ?

• nap:Franza

Done, but I think a bot would have come around and done it. FFMG (talk) 17:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

FRANCE HAS OVERANKED THE UK AS WORLD'S 5TH ECONOMY !!!

According to the FINANCIAL TIME, the size of the British economy has slipped below that of France for the first time since 1999 thanks to the slide in the value of the pound.

The US, Japan, Germany, China and France all had larger economies than the UK in the third quarter of 2007 – and in 2006.

The figures represented a “political economic cataclysm” for Britain, said Martin Weale, the director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, who noted that the UK government often boasted of Britain’s being the fourth largest economy, and then the fifth largest when China overtook the UK in 2005.

The UK’s demotion to sixth place will put pressure on the government’s reputation for economic competence, particularly as it is Britain’s ancient rival, France, that is moving ahead.

Mr Weale said that, although the change in rank had no immediate effect on British living standards and the UK still had slightly higher gross domestic product per head, the falling exchange rate would crimp income growth compared with overall growth in economic output.

In 2006, the GDP of France was €1,792bn (£1,353bn) compared with £1,304bn for the UK. With sterling worth €1.47 on average in 2006, this put the UK economy comfortably 6.7 per cent ahead of the French economy.

But with sterling’s more than 10 per cent fall against the euro in the past six months to €1.32 to the pound, the UK’s economy in 2008 is now 4 per cent smaller than France.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/abe2ffc4-c08b-11dc-b0b7-0000779fd2ac.html

THANKS TO WIKIPEDIA TO UPDATE ITS DATA !!!

French economy

I have included France's ranking for PPP GDP in the introduction along with its nominal GDP ranking but user:JdeJ keeps removing this information and could be considered vandalism. Signsolid (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not vandalism, this is a content dispute, as expressed by user:JdeJ's edit summary. Please do not call content disputes vandalism, it only inflammates the discussion. -- lucasbfr ^talk 17:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I keep removing it. Well, you have proved many times already that you're taking great liberties with the truth. And the truth here is that I've removed it one time. Other users have removed it as well, but that's another matter. And as you have no consensus for keeping it in, your accusations of vandalism are a bit strange. The consensus seems to be the opposite, yet you keep edit warring just as you did on UK yesterday. JdeJ (talk) 17:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

There is absolutely no reason why France's PPP GDP ranking should not be included in the introduction to the article and so creates a WP:NPOV between France's and the UK's GDP rankings. Signsolid (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That's your view. I don't agree, neither does Godefroy. And at first, you even deleted the information about France being the fifth largest economy. It was only after Godefroy reverted your edit that you came up with this new one. JdeJ (talk) 17:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you agree? If not then it breaks WP:NPOV, which by removing France's PPP GDP ranking from the introduction alongside France's nominal GDP ranking breaks WP:NPOV. Signsolid (talk) 17:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Not agreeing with you equals breaking WP:NPOV? That's a new definition on it. JdeJ (talk) 17:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Just some food for thoughts: You should both look up secondary sources (the CIA factbook, newspapers) and check which ranks are usually given. I am no economist and I have no idea at which rank France is. But if only one rank is given, it might be a better idea to put the second number in the Economy section, and not in the lead (see WP:LEAD). Note that if the revert war continues I won't hesitate to protect the article to a random version, or ask for blocks. -- lucasbfr ^talk 18:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I never said not agreeing with me breaks WP:NPOV I said that not including PPP GDP next to nominal GDP is. Signsolid (talk) 18:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And you discovered that only after France overtook the UK, and never cared about it before. Really, do we have to go through all this once more? We had exactly the same circus yesterday in UK article. As for secondary sources, I've provided a lot of sources. The statement in the article is by Financial Times, but the same info can be found on [msnbc]] [3], Financial News [4], Le Figaro [5]. JdeJ (talk) 18:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I think both going on news papers rather than such likes as the IMF, World Bank, and CIA factbook lists makes rankings on Wikipedia very hard to be correct as sources such as news papers that aren't experts or always correct and don't give full ranking lists and may only report on one ranking change and not another end up making rankings on Wikipedia incorrect. All rankings should have been left to the IMF, World Bank, and CIA factbook lists when rankings were undisputable and much more correct. There's even no new GDP figures for the UK and France so ranking who is above who is impossible until the IMF, World Bank, and CIA factbook update their rankings. Signsolid (talk) 18:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I also reverted one of the edits you made, ft.com is a very reliable source.

Having said that, I think we should not put too much details in the intro, simply put it as 5th and give more details in the economy section.

Either way, you should not label changes 'vandalism' or 'as requested'. FFMG (talk) 18:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100% with FFMG and Godefroy on the issue of the intro. JdeJ (talk) 18:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

PPP should be stated where nominal is stated therefore being WP:NPOV and removing PPP was vandalism of sorts as it gave a one sided POV and shortening the intro was requested if you view the article history. Signsolid (talk) 19:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Three questions here

• If you claim it was vandalism when various users removed something that everybody except you agreed on removing, what was it the two times you removed sourced contents that everybody except you wanted to keep?
• Would you please tell us how many other country articles you've edited to insert both PPP and nominal?
• None this far, so if it's so important, why is it just in the the two country articles that I have edited that it is so important and not in any other? JdeJ (talk) 19:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually I have added PPP next to nominal in the UK article.

• It's obvious you're staunchly pro-French from your edits and your zeal for making absolutely sure everyone knows ASAP that the France is now richer than the UK, so you're not fooling anyone least not me. Signsolid (talk) 19:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

May I ask you once again to a. leave my nationality out of the discussion and b. stop lying about my edits. I've got over 2000 edits on Wikipedia, less than 100 concers anything French. And my first edit on this followed a discussion on the user page. JdeJ (talk) 19:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Then I ask you to stop lying about mine either being trolling or vandalism or such as not including PPP GDP in the UK article when I had. Signsolid (talk) 19:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The troll accusation was in good faith, after you tried to replace the Financial Times with an anonymous Greek user's home page. I apologise for that if you want to, but surely anyone can understand why I got suspicious. And I explicitly said that you had included PPP GDP in the UK article. I asked why is it just in the the two country articles that I have edited that it is so important. Those two being, of course, France and the UK. And that question remains, just as the two other I asked you. As I don't see how the article benefits from our exchange of words, I suggest a halt. Every user except you has spoken out in favour of keeping the intro in its present form. Having said that, I'll welcome an inclusion of the new IMF report as soon as it is published. JdeJ (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see a reason that PPP should not be included in the article. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, and the question is a good one! If you browse other country articles on Wikipedia, you won't find it in the introduction for hardly any country. Signsolid never took it any interest in it before an editing dispute with me and as a way to devaluate the position of France as the fifth largest economy, thus using Wikipedia to make a point WP:POINT. However, that doesn't stop your question from being a good one. The answer is that every country article already includes immediately at the beginning of each country article. The GDP PPP is to be found in the infobox to the right of the introduction. As both Godefroy, FFMG and myself have pointed out, there's thus no need for it in the introduction as well. JdeJ (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I think that's a good explanation for your side, thanks. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought I would add this to the discussion. An article in the very serious French newspaper Le Monde today about France and the Indian economy started with this sentence: "La France, cinquième puissance économique mondiale, ne se place qu'au huitième rang des investisseurs en Inde." ("France, the fifth largest economy in the world, is only the eigth largest investor in India."). Source: [6]. So it seems the fact that France has overtaken the UK and become the fifth largest economy in the world is now widely accepted, Le Monde being rather conservative with new data in general. Keizuko (talk) 14:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Failed "good article" nomination

Upon its review on January 18, 2008, this good article nomination was quick-failed because it:

contains cleanup banners including, but not limited to, {{cleanup}}, {{wikify}}, {{NPOV}}, {{unreferenced}}, etc, or large numbers of {{fact}}, {{clarifyme}}, {{huh}}, or similar tags

thus making it ineligible for good article consideration.

This article did not receive a thorough review, and may not meet other parts of the good article criteria. The cleanup tag has been there since long before the article was nominated for GA status, and is valid, as Good Articles cannot continue "Trivia" or related sections. It will need to be integrated into a work of prose before this article can pass GA. Also, given the recent content dispute, stability might be an issue as well, and it would be better to let the article go for at least a week before nomination to demonstrate stability. I encourage you to remedy this problem (and any others) and resubmit it for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.— Cheers, CP 05:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed the trivia section and the uncited stuff (that probably didn't have much to do here anyway). Let's try to bring this to GA status :) -- lucasbfr ^talk 18:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

French Empire and economy

I have edited the article to state that the French empire was the second largest colonial empire, which it was. I have reworded the GDP ranking wording to a more NPOV and now reads It is a developed country, with the fifth or sixth largest economy depending on source. which has been worded exactly the same on the UK article and has the Financial Times source as a reference at the end and is linked to the GDP rankings article. I believe this gives satisfies both sides until the International Monetary Fund, World Bank, or CIA factbook publish GDP figures for 2007. Signsolid (talk) 04:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Signsolid (talk), you are trying to make 2 changes, one of them has been discussed already, (the previous discussion).

As explained already the FT is acceptable and your point is discussed in the economic setion.

You are also trying to change another point in the intro with no reference and/or reason given.

Please discuss those points here first and then make the changes, not the other way around. FFMG (talk) 09:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The previous version stating only that France as having the fifth largest economy was implemented by user:JdeJ before consensus was met. The version now implemented is a neutral version which is also in use on the UK article and was agreed to there on the talk page by editors. The size of the French empire as being the second largest colonial empire is fact and universally accepted unless you really think it was larger than then British empire? Signsolid (talk) 22:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This is really strange, you are making changes and then _demanding_ that no one reverts them until they are discussed. I am asking you to leave the article alone until the discussion is over.

Most of us seem to agree that FT is a good enough source and that in any case this is only the intro so we need to keep it short. More details are in the economy section.

As for the size of the empire, I don't care what you think, the sentence was 'one of the largest', again it was an introduction.

France was one of the largest and during the Napoleonic ara was probably the largest.

Either way you offer no source and/or reference, just changing a statement.

But again you made changes without any discussion and now are getting upset because I am asking that you revert the changes until the discussion is over. FFMG (talk) 04:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't care what I think? Isn't that assuming bad faith? Simply stating One of the largest is misleading as it does not state just how large exactly. One of the largest could mean the largest or even just the 10th largest. It's common knowledge the French empire was the second largest colonial empire in history after the British empire. Here's a list of largest empires. In fact during the colonial age the French empire was only the third largest empire after the British empire and Russian empire but was the second largest colonial empire. As for during the Napoleonic era the Spanish empire was the largest empire followed by the French empire.

On the economy matter a neutral worded version was reached upon on the UK talk page and was seen as being even more neutral for both the UK and France article used the same neutral worded version. FFMG you seem to be the only editor either here or on the UK talk page who has opposed using a neutral worded version which is used on both articles. Signsolid (talk) 18:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't care what you think, (bad faith has nothing to do with Wikipidia), I care about references, reputable sources, you don't offer any of those.

There has already been a discussion about the economics+introduction but don't want to accept the source(s) given, as you can see in this talk page many disagreed with you. But you don't care about what others think, only your personal agenda matters. And you will revert whoever offers sources that do not agree with you, (and then accuse us of vandalism of bad faith).

You make changes to the articles and then demand that no one reverts them, you don't bother to offer any quotes/reference/source.

I am not sure what agenda you are pushing, but Financial time is a reliable source, (as well as the other sources given in this talk page), but you don't care as it does not reflect what you want.

In any case, I have better things to do than care who is first, second or third. All I want is a reliable article, (this is not one anymore as is uses old source), I am sure another editor will edit your changes in time, but I have no doubt you will revert them over and over. FFMG (talk) 05:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

New problem tags

I see that user Wilhelmina Will has added a few 'problems' tags on the page that cannot be removed until the problems have been discussed.
What problems?
What are we supposed to discuss?
And Where is the discussion about the tags? FFMG (talk) 04:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I simply removed the tags. The user didn't mention any problem with a single word and seemed to be here only to disrupt/provocate. The user's very derogatory edit comment when inserting the tags make this look very likely. Tags should usually not be removed, but when a user just go around inserting tags that nobody has been discussing and the user doesn't even care to mention any reason for adding them, the situation is rather different. JdeJ (talk) 10:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

We cannot have a single thing mentioned without a citation. Too many people are putting in their own opinions and original research. A true vandaliser is someone who just lets them get away with that. I suggest that you do not call me a vandaliser again. Otherwise you will have more money than you could ever dream of spending, but you'll never have enough to pay your medical bills.

If you want the article for France to be so cluttered as it is, then you'd better open up a blogspace and write about it here. It's people like you who are delaying this article - about one of the most glorious countries in the universe - from being a feature in Wikipedia. And I mean that accusation in the nicest possible way. Wilhelmina Will (talk) 03:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I shouldn't try and think so much on a Sunday morning, but.

1- I still don't see what the tags were for.

2- I don't understand your threat to JdeJ... you want to beat him up but then give him a lot of money as well?

I agree that the article is a bit on the long side, but I am not sure I would call it cluttered. FFMG (talk) 04:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You're very cute, with your interpretations. No, that was not a threat I gave him, it was a curse. I hope you don't believe in such things, or you might be disturbed, perhaps. Anyway, the tags were for what they read: More citations, a risk of the article possessing original research, and disputed neutrality. It's an observation, but if a lot of the editors to this article are English or low-class Americans, they seem to be living up to their stereotypes, and treating the article as though they hate or dislike the country it's on. Have you seen how many trolls attack this page, or the article? And hold on a minute while I fish for an example of that original research I feared for... Wilhelmina Will (talk) 04:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Hahaha- just read this and its really funny. *Sorry back to serious mood* I think the article is fine. Possibly just clean up on a few facts and it will be sutiable. However, if no one comes to an agreement I wouldn't think these 'problem tags' are ever going to come down... ~comment by an guest~

er, ok, thanks for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FFMG (talk • contribs) 21:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible Original Research:

I only skimmed through on these parts, but it seems to me that most of this needs to be cited - either for verification, or simply for the sake of further reading.

1. French people often refer to Metropolitan France as L'Hexagone (The "Hexagon") because of the geometric shape of its territory.

Unless it was a Frenchman or Frenchwoman who added that in, how can we know for certain that they really do? Is this self-made nickname for that region so internationally renowned that it's a surefire fact? Unless one can respond in the affirmative to either question, It needs a citation.

You must be joking right? It is one of the most common ways to talk about France in France. You want a citation? Read any french media, you will find this before long.Med (talk) 06:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Then it does not need to be cited. End of Story. For now: Wilhelmina Will (talk) 07:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

In fact it is so common, (in France), that it is on the French euro coins, (1EUR & 2EUR) FFMG (talk) 07:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

A quick google search for keywords 'france hexagon' returned several sources supporting the notion. The following could be added as a citation: Nathaniel B. Smith, "The Idea of the French Hexagon", French Historical Studies, Vol. 6, No. 2. (1969), pp. 139-155. Or perhaps the following link: http://www.citeulike.org/user/jannon/article/1597304 66.130.156.84 (talk) 04:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

2. There are various theories as to the origin of the name of the Franks.

A

One is that it is derived from the Proto-Germanic word frankon which translates as javelin or lance as the throwing axe of the Franks was known as a francisca.

B

Another proposed etymology is that in an ancient Germanic language, Frank means free as opposed to slave. This word still exists in French as franc, it is also used as the translation of "Frank" and to name the local money, until the use of the Euro in the 2000s.

C

However, rather than the ethnic name of the Franks coming from the word frank, it is also probable that the word is derived from the ethnic name of the Franks, the connection being that only the Franks, as the conquering class, had the status of freemen. In German, France is still called Frankreich, which literally means "Realm of the Franks". In order to distinguish from the Frankish Empire of Charlemagne, Modern France is called Frankreich, while the Frankish Realm is called Frankenreich.

Now here we're talking about cite-cite-cite-for-crying-out-loud-cite! Some of this might not only be original research, but speculation, also! Two Wikipedia-no-nos riddled into one! It seems like you only walk one paragraph or two down the article and bam! The poor thing is literally kissed with original research! Something has to be done! The original research label goes back till it's done! Wilhelmina Will (talk) 04:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite like this part either. I wrote the following part with the reference to Capetian France and had it been only up to me I would have removed the first part because not only it lacks of references or citations but I'm not sure it is entirely correct (maybe only partly or it only represents a certain view on the events). Matthieu (talk) 20:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

---

• Been too long, so Removing OR section tagging... use a {{fact}} tag instead of shitty IN-YOUR-FACE tag for nit-picks like these. Don't disrupt the project with such when it really doesn't matter a hill of beans. That the Romans refered to the Franks with some congnate is beyond contestation, and that certainly implies they call themselves something along the same lines.

On A: The Francisca hypothesis is as likely as any... though maybe a chicken and egg quandry—that particular weapon was derivative of the axe as a tool, and Europe was heavily wooded until the High Middle Ages, and the Germanic tribes were all pretty good iron workers.

Should someone pin any of this down, add a note here to close out the section, including citation data. // FrankB 16:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Picture

Hi. Could someone change the picture of Descartes to this one: Image:Frans Hals - Portret van René Descartes.jpg ? So we can delete the lower resolution picture from Commons. 213.186.252.252 (talk) 12:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

~Yeah tht one looks better!~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.178.110 (talk) 15:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The inclusion of Kosovo

I have included an independent Kosovo in the map showing France. Bardhylius (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.136.4.75 (talk) 02:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

No racial statistics

How come no one has put anything about the racial make-up of the country under Demography?

It's just trivia, perhaps? Wilhelmina Will (talk) 02:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Racial statistics are forbidden in France. French remember what classifying people led to. Med (talk) 03:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That's smart of them. I knew all along that they were pure darlings. Wilhelmina Will (talk) 07:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I echo the above. France has never classified people according to race, and I think it's wise. It's a country that since the beginning of time has seen a mix of Basques, Celts, Romans, Greeks, Franks, Moors, Burgundians and many more. In other words, it's a country just like any other :) France has usually regarded those who live in France, speak French and more or less follow a French way of life as French without caring about background. There are of course statistics about the number of people with foreign passports, but that's another matter. JdeJ (talk) 08:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

But if you move to France and have yourself registered as a citizen, they treat you as though you've been there all your life? Wilhelmina Will (talk) 08:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

In the ideal case :) You have to be fluent in French, of course. I don't think there's any country in the world where you're seen a fully integrated in society despite not being fluent in the language(s) of that country. It's as hard being accepted in France without speaking good French as it is to be accepted in the UK or the US without speaking good English. Apart from that, I'd say yes. JdeJ (talk) 08:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh yay! Then at my rate, I'll be all set within ten years time! Exactly when I wanted to set up residency there! Hooray!!! Wilhelmina Will (talk) 08:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

French people - vote for pictures

Hello France. You all may be interested in one of the discussions going on about the French people article regarding the pictures in the infobox: you are now all invited to participate in the vote for the French personalities to be included in the French people infobox. Regards! The Ogre (talk) 21:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

France Unity

The statement that France is the oldest unified state in Europe is quite false, even in to the 1400 France was a mixture of Dukedoms with loyaties to different Kings. One could say that Britain was the oldest unified if only for a few years under Arthur etc but this would ignore the true facts. The failure of France for centuries was in the very opposite of this statement had it had a unified state with a degree of unity then it would have had far greater influence on the history of the middle ages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.1.254.223 (talk) 02:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Latin Europe

Hello France! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 20:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

french economy

Is anyone going to make changes for the french economy? We have the estimates from 2006 and we are in 2008... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.78.197.215 (talk) 07:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The economy section, (and the intro), is a joke really. Every time a change is made then someone reverts it. Any changes are ignored, rejected or some proviso is added, (look at the 5th vs 6th discussion above).

All that so the perceived rankings of one country or another is not changed. But by all means you are welcome to try and change it. FFMG (talk) 07:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

France GDP(nominal)for 2007 is 2.5 trillion???? Can someone put it in the economy section? What appears now is that Spanish or Italian GDPs(per capita or PPP) are higher than the French one... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.78.196.170 (talk) 10:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

France's Main Ideals

It is stated in the intro that France's main ideals can be found in the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. But it's not it - one needs to add that main ideals are also stated in France's motto : Liberty, Equality, Fraternity (or in French : Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité). I cannot edit the article yet as it is semi-protected but if you someone could do it that would be great. Thanks,

Sir Selrak, 3/04

I'd rather change that if there was a citation available, but just so you know; to properly sign your signature after your comments, just add four tildes in a row (four of these: ~). Wilhelmina Will (talk) 00:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War

France#Monarchy to republic : please replace the text

Lord Cornwallis' surrender following the Siege of Yorktown. French participation was decisive in this battle, 1781

by

Lord Cornwallis' surrender following the Siege of Yorktown. French participation was decisive in this battle, 1781

Since we have an article ([[France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War|French participation]]/) on this important association. 220.135.4.212 (talk) 15:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Y Done FFMG (talk) 15:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Did France "acquire its sovereignty" in August 1944?

According to the List of countries by formation dates article, the "Date of acquisition of sovereignty" of France was in August 1944. This is not reflected in the France article. Which date is correct? --Mais oui! (talk) 12:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Even during German occupation there was a French sovereign state based in Vichy, ignoring that fact would lessen the responsabilities of the Vichy regime. Blastwizard (talk) 09:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Fraternité

It's been mentioned before, I think, but seems to me that 'brotherhood' would be a much better translation than fraternity. Merriam-Webster's, in the definition of 'fraternity' denotes that the sense of the word as a group or brotherhood as more significant than than as a sense or feeling of brotherhood. In the definition of 'brotherhood,' however, no such distinction is made.He Who Is^{[ Talk ]} 05:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary cites brotherhood as synonym for fraternity, and sounds like a dodgy translation. As the English contains nearly a third of words of French origin (via Normans invaders) it is most likely that the word fraternity comes from the French word fraternité and therefore is the most appropriate translation. Broterhood on the other hand is probably the equivalent word of saxon origin, as english there are numerous cases of synonyms words with one of French origin and the other of saxon origin. Sometimes the meanings have diverged slightly, that is the case with the meat and the animal it comes from. Blastwizard (talk) 14:40, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmm, the Embassy of France in the US seems to have switched "Brotherhood" to "Fraternity" (look at the title of the page, and the text). I guess Fraternity is better but both can be accepted. -- lucasbfr ^talk 15:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

France and Hip Hop

I removed the section about France and Hip Hop, (here), because, to me, it sounds more like a political statement than a section about music in France. Maybe all it needs is to be rewritten from a more neutral point of view.
I am also not sure why it compares the music to the US racial problems, the two musics are not really the same. FFMG (talk) 15:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Mentioning Paris in the intro

I really think this should be done, as with UK, Germany etc and their respective capitals

How about: France is a unitary semi-presidential republic with its seat of government based in its capital and largest city, Paris. ? 91.110.101.32 (talk) 17:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Problem with the Law content

There is write at the end of the fourth paragraph that either the "offenses against the public decency" or the "breach of the peace" have been used to repress public expressions of "homosexuality" !?

In France, homosexuality is protected by the laws. That means you can show public expression of homosexuality as well as heterosexuality... Moreover, every discrimination about the homosexuality is seriously repressed as well as the racism for example.

I think what you mean it's that obscenities or sexual demonstration in public places are repressed (for both homosexual or hetero...).

If you talk about a past situation (what means I misunderstood), this sentence maybe need a date or another time indicator to emphasize this is abolished (like it's done for the "sodomy laws" just before it).

Thank you..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.181.204.228 (talk) 03:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

France part of the United Kingdom?!

I'm hoping someone familiar with 20th Century French history will look at this. "In 1956, the then French prime minister proposed for France to become part of the United Kingdom." This is quoted from the article Commonwealth of Nations. Is this true? Wanderer57 (talk) 19:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

This was widely report just over a year ago, see http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jan/15/france.eu and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2007/01/15/nfrance115.xml for two news articles from then (there are many more). The statement on the Commonwealth article is referenced. Thanks/wangi (talk) 20:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I missed that report. I suppose France was in a fairly desperate situation to make such a proposal. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

In fact, it's not true. At least not in that sense. No proposal was made for France to "become part of the United Kingdom". Neither was any such proposal ever officially made. It should also be kept in mind that the prime minister in France doesn't correspond to the British PM. All in all, the proposal itself is highly noteworthy but should not be described as more than it was. JdeJ (talk) 21:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. So is it fair to say the idea of the two countries joining was discussed in private meetings and that records of those meetings were kept secret for fifty years. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It was not about France joining the United Kingdom but to create a new state called the United Kingdom of Great-Britain and France. That's not so stupid, until the Treaty of Amiens the name of England was sometimes known as United Kingdom of England and France because the Kings of England claimed to be King of France. Matthieu (talk) 11:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

French comic books

I reduced this section, because in an article like this, the importance of comic books should not be overstated. MaCRoEco (talk) 13:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

French Guiana in the Dutch Empire

Hello everyone! There is a discussion at Talk:Dutch Empire#Request For Comment: Map, because user Red4tribe has made a map of the Dutch Empire (Image:Dutch Empire 4.png) that includes significative parts of French Guiana. Would you like to comment? Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

New Map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dutch_Empire_new.PNG http://www.colonialvoyage.com/ square=tradingpost (Red4tribe (talk) 16:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC))

Still OR, POV and unsourced (yours is not not a credible source). Please discuss stuff at Talk:Dutch Empire#Request For Comment: Map. This was just a request for comment, not a discussion. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 16:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

this si sooooo coolio!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.220.65 (talk) 22:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Counter-factual?

"France was the world's foremost power from the latter half of the 17th century until the early 19th century" in the opening seems to be very open to debate. I think it should be removed. Lord of Light (talk) 18:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed! It should at least have a citation needed tag placed on it! Could someone do it please, I am unable to edit due to being a new user. Joe Deagan (talk) 15:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Canadian French

I have just come back from a couple of weeks in France, Sauze-Vaussais, south of Poitier to be precise, and was told by a local that their accent and dialect was very similar to that spoken in Montreal. What with my poor French, I could not ask for any more detail, could it be that the French spoken there has not changed as much as it has in other parts? Joe Deagan (talk) 13:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

article about FRANCE: HISTORY section. 498 to 987 ? where are the merovingians ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.35.253 (talk) 20:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

locator map; orange or green

• 
• 

I am an editor busy on the Germany article. There, we recently had the discussion on whether to use the orange or the green map. Most contributors simply like the style of the orange version more and so it will (for the time being) remain our type of locator map. However, to me it was very surprising to find out that more EU countries (the ratio is 2:1) actually use the green version. So, I was wondering whether this is done on purpose, because you prefer the green version? Or would you like to change? Tomeasy_talk 15:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

No comments at all? What if I propose to change it...Tomeasy_talk 06:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've changed it. It looks better to me and I think it makes Wikipedia look more professional. Tomeasy_talk 19:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Why are you changing it though. It was fine in green....just leave it. Most of the European Union maps are green anyway so I dont understand why you would just change perfectly fine photos. The green looks much more professional as it does not include the nation's totpgraphy which is good. Galati (talk) 04:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)Galati

Why do you speak up so late? I think there was enough time for you to voice your opinion before anything changed. Only when I changed the map you entered this talk page, and that too while immediately reverting my edit. This is bad manners, I gave everyone enough time to discuss this here before I changed the map. Now that it was changed after sufficient time without any objection, I think we should have this discussion while the orange map stands. Tomeasy_talk 11:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

How does this matter? The fact is is that the map was fine before. I dont know why you have to bother it. Just because you like the map does not give you the right to change what was there originally. It should just be left in the green like 66% of all EU countries. The fact that the others are green are good enough to show the popularity of it. I am reverting it back to the green because that is the way it was before and there was never an argument. Galati (talk) 04:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)Galati

It was simply a suggestion. Cut him some slack. I personally think it looks better in orange, the borders are easier to see and it is more detailed. RoyalMate1 02:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The new france president is simpleton??

Recrntly the new france president aslo to do silly things, lech,unmanners and likes follow an American likes dog. So why that man became France president? Do you think the Franceman was mutt? I don't know,so I want people discussioning~!! Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.82.219.207 (talk) 12:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey? FFMG (talk) 12:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Wanna discuss? Find a forum. This is the Wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.45.230.250 (talk) 15:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Who are you replying to? FFMG (talk) 13:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

History: WWII

I am observing some kind of edit war between user: Keizuko and user: Signsolid. Casus belli appears to be the extend by which the French role in WWII is reported. I would like to motivate both of you to exchange your arguments here rather than reverting your respective edits. Perhaps we can find something on which we can all agree.

I think that the two versions advocated by these users are both extreme, i.e., one reports too much and the other one too little. Naturally, this makes it easy for the opponents to wipe out the other proposition. Therefore, we should focus on establishing a solution that is legitimate and consistent in itself, rather than pointing out the limitation of the other propositions.

I agree with Keizuko that the part on WWII should not get out of hand, and I agree with Signsolid that some things need to be said on this article. Just take a look on other European country articles to see how much could be appropriate.

From my point of view the information conveyed has to include: The period 39-40, a declared war with little fighting; the blitzkrieg campeign and occupation, Vichy and resistance; the liberation 44-45; and the French status as a victorious nation.

BTW, I also think that at least one sentence should be dropped for WWI, i.e., the entente or casus belli. Tomeasy_talk 15:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you make a background check on Signsolid. If you check the history of his edits, you'll see he's a British nationalist who makes numerous edits agrandizing the UK, its army (one of his pet themes), its economy, etc. In the past this user has engaged in some large scale edit wars, notably at United Kingdom because he didn't like the fact that the article contained a reference to the Financial Times which reported that the French economy has passed the UK economy due to the fall in the sterling pound. Also an edit war at List of countries by military expenditures where he couldn't stand the fact that France has now a larger military budget than the UK (who cares! apparently he does). Or another edit war, with sockpuppets, at Fortune Global 500 where he just can't stand the fact that Fortune Magazine lists Shell as a Dutch company. His British nationalism seems to be matched by his francophobia. It was quite obvious in his edits 2 weeks ago when he replaced all the pictures of the history section with images of French defeats (100 years' war, Waterloo, Hitler in Paris in 1940; see his edits here: [7], [8], and [9]). In the past it has been very hard to engage in reasonable discussion with this user, not just for me, but for several other editors as well (ask the people who discussed the UK GDP passed by France at Talk:United Kingdom), so I doubt it's going to be easy to discuss things reasonably with him here. Keizuko (talk) 16:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this background information. I am happy to hear that he is at least not a German nationalist as I was afraid considering the added content ;-)

Anyway, I am looking forward to read any of his arguments with good faith. I have not had bad experiences yet, so that is the least I have to offer. If this turns out to be in vain, then we will still be two people here who can talk the issue over reasonably.

So, let's have it about the content now. Do you think the list of contents I proposed is too long? If so, what would you chop? Tomeasy_talk 17:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree the previous version was slightly too long but Keizuko's version removed almost all mention of World War I & II, and considering this was one of the most important period's in France's history. Stating France was occupied by Germany is not nationalism, it's fact and common sense. Removing all mention of any French defeats from France's history is nationalism. Besides I've included France was occupied by Germany in the history section now and only added a few extra words to do so. Signsolid (talk) 21:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Only the metropolitan part of France was occupied, so I've made that clear. Tomeasy, concerning the points you've listed, I think it's too detailed. We shouldn't go into detailing Phoney War, Blitzkrieg invasion, Occupation, Liberation. The history section ought to remain a brief summary of a history that spans over 2,000 years, not just 100 years, and there are already numerous detailed articles about France in WW2. More generally, I think the history section is poorly written. Some events are detailed too much (like the Indochinese War, which in such a short historical summary deserves only a brief note in a sentence about decolonisation), while others are completely missing from the section, like the great economic expansion between 1945 and 1974, the so-called Trente Glorieuses, which is much more important to today's France than the two world wars (as bloody as these wars were). There is even some factually wrong information, like that sentence about the 4th Republic struggling to maintain the economic status of France, when it's actually the opposite: France experienced its greatest economic expansion under the 4th Republic and then under de Gaulle and Pompidou. So there is lots of rewriting that needs to be done. Keizuko (talk) 22:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The length of a section is always a relative thing. Therefore, it helps to compare. As you've already mentioned other issues are treated in much more detail. I do not see why the Algerian issue takes more space than WWI and WWII together. Remains the question how much space should we allocate to this section in absolute terms.

I have looked up other European country articles and France is among the shortest. Talking about WWII it is the shortest. Not surprisingly Germany and also Italy deal the subject in much greater detail. But also on the UK and Poland article WWII receives significantly more attention. At last Belgium and notably the Czech Republic report on WWII extensively. And those were just and exclusively the countries looked at. So, in terms of Wikipedia standards it appears inappropriate to beat down both WWs here with merely one sentence. Tomeasy_talk 23:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

FRENCH ECONOMY

I LOOKED AT THE ECONOMY SECTION OF FRANCE AND SAW THAT CHANGES HAVE NOT BEEN MADE YET. GDP NOMINAL IS FROM 2006 AND WE ARE NOW IN 2008, IT SHOULD BE 2.8 TRILLION USD AND 41,000 USD PER CAPITA.