Talk:Tom Stone (magician)

Comment from subject's talk page

I got the following message from Krash:

• I just wanted to advise that it's considered bad form to edit articles about yourself (see WP:VAIN). Wikipedia has lately seen a number of vanity articles written about magicians and I don't want anything you're trying to do be viewed as bad faith.

and

• I'm not questioning the verifiability or notability as I checked out the sources the same day the article was created. I'm just saying that someone who didn't agree with you could use the vanity point to construct a strawman/red herring in an attempt to discredit your editing and/or motives.

Unfortunately Krash is right. After checking the references provided, I found that this technically is a vanity article, since I wrote it myself. However, I'm a bit reluctant to delete it, as I also, from an objective stance, consider me to have notability within my field. That, of course, might also be vanity speaking. Therefore, I'm raising the warning flags myself, to alert people that this article might be biased, and possibly should be deleted if deemed unimportant. --TStone 04:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Page updated.  :) Please review it and let us know if you'd like any further changes, by posting here. And, welcome! Elonka 10:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Innovation

I've removed the following line for the time being:

who has innovated and improved several magical effects

We need a reference that proves the assertion. In addition, the list of self published lecture notes is highly unusual. I'm not sure what that proves, but my personal view is that the list should be cut. -- JJay 21:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that if we can't find some sort of confirmation on some of them, such as reviews in other press, the doubtful ones should be removed. However, I'd suggest leaving them there for a few days right now under the assume good faith principle, to see if Stone can help provide references. As for the "innovation" statement, the "Warpsmith" techniques seem (at least to me) to have verification in other industry periodicals. The "several" may be in question though. Some re-wording is probably in order to make it more accurate, but the term "innovate" appears verifiable to me. Elonka 22:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by the Warpsmith technique since it is not mentioned in the article. In fact I don't see any discussion there regarding this magician and innovation and magical effects. We need sources that assert that Tom Stone has innovated and improved something. Regarding the photocopies, lecture notes and other self published items, what do they prove? And how are they verifiable? Are these works available through Amazon for example? -- JJay 22:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

No, they are out of print. Can't have everyone doing my material. It might be possible that H&R Magic Books in Texas can find a copy for you. Does it lessen the value of a work to be both author and publisher?

Don't know if it matters, but a guy built an idea-generating device based on a series of essays I wrote a long time ago and published a story about it in a magazine. Probably irrelevant, but he later put the text out on the net: Random Thoughts

And there's comments at Lance Pierce's forum (bottom of the page + following page), which probably doesn't mean much either, but if you know anything about the field, it is an impressing array of names there. I got invited to participate in the middle of it, which probably should be interpreted as suspect. --TStone 18:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

References

Elonka, could you explain what you intend by the "references" you just added? One looks to be a message board post. One seems to be a price list of some kind. One looks to be a Swedish blog, etc. These would not seem to qualify as references that can be used here. -- JJay 00:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure. The price list is indicated as verification of Stone's publications -- it's a third-party listing with a wide variety of magic publications, including Stone's, to verify that Stone's works are "real". The Swedish page (I can't understand all of it), appears to be a mixture of Swedish and English with blurbs from multiple people commenting on Stone's books. As for the message board post (if we're talking about the same thing), I think I may have linked that one because it showed the administrator of a magazine site posting about one of the books. The general user chatter I tend to disregard, but when it's a sysop or administrator of the site posting, that has more weight. I could see moving it to the "External links" section though, since I agree that it's borderline. Elonka 01:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but none of those links prove anything. Message board, blog posts, or price lists from unknown commercial sites are not acceptable references and are only very rarely used as external links.

Furthermore, the "works" section in this article looks to be a list of self published booklets, if they exist at all. This page can not function as an adjunct of Mr. Stone's business, which apparently consists largely of selling advice or how to pamphlets. Listing these "works" does not add to our knowledge of Mr. Stone and can only serve to promote his commercial interests. By comparison, you would not expect an article on a University professor or academic to list "lecture notes" or other "publications" that may or may not be commerically available. Generally, only publications through reputable publishers can be listed. Therefore, I am removing the list, until publication information can be added. -- JJay 03:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to promote commersial interests, when the works are out of print. Besides, are university litterature completely free? And how is the definition of "reputable publishers"? Enigma has got contributions from Japan, USA, Denmark, Norway, which mayby isn't a proof, but a hint that I might be a reputable publisher - because why would people outside my own country decide to publish material through me? (btw. the link isn't for inclusion on the page, just wanted to illustrate a point)--TStone 20:22, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

The works of his that have been referenced and reviewed in other industry press should be included, regardless of whether or not they have been self-published. Elonka 05:07, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know. This looks like a bit of a stretch to me. The verification problems when faced with self-published material are almost insurmountable. Without the implicit vetting of a commercial publisher, anyone can set themselves up as an expert in anything. Exactly which "industry" sources did you have in mind, that are likely to review lecture notes and some of the other self published works on our list? Perhaps more importantly, do you know if Mr. Stone has done more than the two convention appearances in the article? Has he appeared on TV? Has he been featured in the MSM? How does he make a living? -- JJay 05:23, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

That might be troublesome to find. I know I was in portugese and japanese TV in 2000, as I was hired to perform and lecture at the world championships in Lisbon, FISM2000. I was featured guest in swedish TV4's program "Magiskt" in 1996. (a bunch of unimportant appearances too, like in connection to having premiere of a new show etc...). On new years eve 2004, I was on of 5 featured guests in NTV's new year special in Japan. I have no idea what the show was titled in japanese, but they translated it for me as being "Tomo Maeda and the 5 Greatest Close-up magicians in the World" - before accusing me of anything, I just want to get it straight that I have nothing to do with the choice of the title, because I do not rank myself in that way, because I know at least 11-12 magicians in the world that I rank as being better than me. Of course, any verification outside Japan, besides pumping out the actual show through Bit-Torrent, are at the forums like Genii magazine --TStone 20:22, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I've just looked at one of the links you provided, which is to an online forum review at a message board called Magic Talk [1]. I've already indicated that message boards, like blogs, are not valid sources for wikipedia. I hope these are not what you had in mind by the "industry" press. Nevertheless, this review described Mr. Stone's product "Warpsmith" as a pdf file that is sold for $15. Is this really what we are talking about here, pdf files, typed up on a computer? Is it really necessary to list these "products" as if they were real published works, rather than commercial items sold through a home business? -- JJay 05:37, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with JJay on this particular assessment, Magic Talk is not an reliable source, and I would remove that "review" myself. The guy writing it is known at that particular forum, but not outside it, and what he's reviewing is way over his head. Though, it must be considered that a few of the forums have purpose that might be considered different, as they bring noted performers in different part of the world together. Far from all, of course. Magic Talk is an unreliable source of information. The Magic Cafe is usually reliable on the general stuff, and Genii's forum is the most reliable forum in all the english speaking countries.

There are plenty of references of him out on the web[2], including pictures[3]. Unfortunately, a lot of the information is in Swedish, which I only have about a 10% comprehension level (if that). He does seem to be well-represented on the industry websites though[4][5][6] (lots more references than Aladin, heh). In terms of declaring him as an "expert", I agree that would be inappropriate without proof, but listing his writing seems appropriate, since it's clear that he has definitely done writing and self-publishing, as well as being involved with the Swedish newsletters. It's true that this is a different standard of proof from other types of books on Wikipedia, but I think that the magic industry could be argued to deserve an exception, because of its generally secretive culture.

Anyway, he's generally on Wikipedia quite often, and is undoubtedly more familiar with his own press than we are (he was the one that pointed me at the video and picture, which I doubt I would have found as quickly without his help). I've found him very pleasant to work with, though he does definitely have strong opinions about intellectual property issues! Or in other words, just ask him for what kind of references are needed, and let's see what he comes up with. Remember, assume good faith, eh?  :) Elonka 06:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Rather than assuming anything about anyone (and this is not a question of faith but facts), I'm trying to clean up the article on Mr. Stone. I am uncomfortable listing a bunch of self published items that don't tell us anything about this person, particularly as reviews on message boards and in unknown magic journals do not confirm that the items in question have any merit whatsoever. I am uneasy when links are provided to sites where these items are available for sale. I am disturbed, given this commercial spin, that someone who claims to be Mr. Stone is involved with its editing.

I'm sorry, but how do you define unknown journals? Is it unknown if you've never seen it, then I guess that a whole lot of sources would fall away. For example, if you call Magic magazine unknown, I really don't think you should edit this article at all. The same with Genii (magazine), originally put out by The Magic Castle since the 40's. Look, I don't really mind that you take me down - as long as I'm the target, but when it comes to shitting on respected sources, just because you don't find anything "better" on me - then you are editing with an agenda--TStone 20:49, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I also do not believe the magic industry gets a free pass for being "secretive" as you would like to assert. It seems to me that anyone with $15 could buy one of Mr. Stone's pdf files and begin their initiation into that secretive realm. Or they could log on to Amazon and select from any of the thousands of available tomes- actually printed by publishers on paper- on the conjuring arts.

Not quite, you got to know where to find it, make certain that you don't miss the opportunity during those 8-10 days it is available before it is out of print, and when is not common knowledge. You need to get accepted, because if I never heard about you, your money will be returned - Known creators get the book free... and then, not least, the material is far from beginner's material, and way over the head compared with anything on Amazon. Someone beginning their "initiation" would not be allowed to get it, as he would have trouble even comprehending the concepts involved. I'd refer him to Harry Loraynes book for beginners. I don't like Lorayne one single bit, but he does damn good books (or did).

Now, I don't like being this secretive. It's thanks to places like Wikipedia, where it is encouraged to steal from magical creators, stripping the originator's name, and then the thief post it as his own creation. Since I don't want to have my name removed from my work, this is how it must be done.

Although Mr Stone may be an aspiring writer, we would better serve our readers by compiling a list of things that Mr. Stone has actually achieved away from his keyboard. Perhaps Mr. Stone has been featured discussing magic or electronic publishing on TV or the Radio? That would certainly be impressive, even if we are only talking about a local station in his hometown in Sweden. Perhaps he has performed at more than the two events in our list? Local clubs? Office parties? Euro Disney? Hovercraft? Blackpool? Any of those venues would clearly strike an emotional chord with our readers and should be mentioned in the article forthwith. -- JJay 06:46, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Since you takes an interest, I wrote 25% of the script to the english movie TWI$T (backed by Miramax) in 2004, together with english director and author Penny Woolcock. This isn't for inclusion on the page, as the movie isn't released yet.--TStone 20:22, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

The problematic thing is that you want it in english. It's possible to find printed accounts in Portugese (from Coimbra Cultural Festival 2000 ), in Japanese (december 2004) a lot in swedish newspapers etc. But in USA and England I'm so far only known among magicians, and only as an creator and innovator. As Stephen Minch at Hermetic Press says (now THAT is a reputable publisher) close to the bottom of the biography done by Swedish Magic Archive, my reputition in the states are today modest. (The original publication of that piece was in the danish (printed) magazine Pegasus - issue and year clearly stated at the bottom) So, even by your standards, that particular piece should be useful. The magazine is well known, and back issues are available. Before even mentioning that the english quotes are irrelevant, I suggest you check out those names. (I don't know if Babelfish do auto-translations from swedish?). Oh, since I've seen people playing chess - feel free to make a whois-search on the owner of the Swedish Magic Archive-page, my own page and the Pegasus-page - before hinting that it has to be disregarded because it seems likely that I'm behind all sites mentioned.

...where was I - oh, so far only my creative side has been known in USA, except for 72 performances at The Magic Castle, and a show and lecture in Seattle. Meaning, finding american mainstream newspaper reports are close to impossible. I'm only aware of one place, in a chronicle in an american newspaper (might be Boston) in 1997-98. The author was a doctor who had been in Sweden on a medical convention, giving a talk. I did a performance, and chatted with the doctor afterwards. This she wrote about in her guest chronicle when she got back, and made some play on words... Well, this isn't useful either, but at least it is a hint that in america, there's only one manistream article where I'm mentioned--TStone 20:22, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• TStone, would you have any idea how we can confirm your suggestion that Tom Stone (magician) performed 72 times at the Magic Castle? That seems like exactly the kind of information we would want to have in this article if we are going to claim that Tom Stone (magician) is actually a performing magician and not just an electronic publisher -- JJay 20:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea actually. Genii magazine (due to its origin at the Castle) publish the show schedules every month, but just the first and last date of each performer, and not the actual number of performances as that depends a bit on the numbers of visitors that happens to turn up - besides that magazine is deemed "unknown", as you remember ;-) Meir Yedid's "Magic Times" also publish start and stop dates for the Castle, but that is information on the web, and not accepted either. Unfortunatly, Magic Castle themselves just publish upcoming performers, and I'm not sure they have an archive. To be completely honest, I'm not even sure it was 72 performances. In february 2002 I worked there 7 days. 4 performances on monday, 5 the other days + sunday lunch. In september 2003 I did the same thing again, but then I did 6 performances on the friday (but I'm not sure how many on the monday)+ sunday lunch, also I did a lecture on the saturday. Oh, the second time, they also had something called "buy-out" on the saturday morning, meaning that someone from outside rented the whole place, performers and all, so it was yet another performance. It might actually only be 71 performances. 70 if you remove the lecture. No, I'm sorry, only way to verify the number of performances is to talk with the Magic Castle, but that is Original Research - so it is probably better to delete the whole thing.--TStone 22:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

However, is it possible to amend this phrase in the beginning: "material about various magical techniques" ? As it is now, there's not even a hint regarding that it is my own creations and innovations that I publish, and there's quite a leap from that to "various" - and I do not agree to the notion that it is alright to separate a creator's name from his works, even if that is the standard on the Wikipedia. Even if reviews in trade magazines and on the web doesn't fill Wiki standards - there is still nothing that even hints that it is Public Domain or other people's work I publish. The quotes at my page should perhaps not be taken as verification that my work has a value, but it should be enough to support the idea that my material is my own, and not "various". --TStone 23:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I've rewritten the page again, trying to incorporate everyone's concerns. If I missed anything, let me know.  :) TStone, let me know if you've won any other awards, and then (after I verify), we can create a separate "Awards" section.

Thanks for taking care of "various" :-) Btw, Hayashi is from Canada (his parents are japanese)...Or is that knowledge "original research"?--TStone 01:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the page from Kingside Studios is not suitable. They helped me creating a soundtrack of a show of mine, and in return I helped them get their web page started. So that page is from my own hand --TStone 01:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

JJay, some of these links aren't usable on the page because of their location and/or language, but I'm providing them in case they may help put your mind at ease about whether or not TStone is a performer: [7],[8], [9],[10],[11] Elonka 00:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The one from susning.nu should be considered less reliable, as it is a former attempt to create something similar to Wikipedia. I could have put that text there myself. I didn't, but that's something that only I (and the person that posted it) know.--TStone 01:34, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Works

I've removed the following text pending publication:

Note: Though some of these had seemingly minor distribution of less than 100 copies, that does not seem to be uncommon within the magic industry, as they have a very limited target audience (other professional magicians)

Swedish-language

• "Tom Stone, lecture notes 1", 1992 (75 copies)
• "Om Misdirection (50 copies)
• "Diary of the Warpsmith, lecture notes 2", 1994 (75 copies)
• "Den Enda Segern", 1994 (30 copies)
• "Collage", 1995 (80 copies)
• "Yet another set of Lecture Notes", 1996 (60 copies)

English-language

• "Ambivalent Travelers", 1992 (40 copies)
• "The Warpsmith's Toolbox", 1993 (300 copies)
• "Coercri", 1995 (110 copies)
• "Lennart Green's Snap Deal", 1995 (co-written with Lennart Green)[12]
• "The Warpsmith Returns", March 1996 (400 copies)
• "Cerebral Vortex - Fragments of my Brain", 1997 (100 copies)
• "The One Coin Opener", 1997 (reprint of a section from The Warpsmith's Toolbox) - (200 copies)
• "2000, ...at first sight", 2000 (300 copies)
• "Self publishing - Immortality on a budget", 2005 (e-book) [13]

Translation

Stone, could you (or anyone else reading this page who knows Swedish) please translate this? It's from [14]: Tom Stone är en av norra Europas främsta trollkarlar. Han är internationellt känd bland sina kollegor som en skapare av nya magitrick och magiprinciper. Även Tom uppträdde på Magic Castle samtidigt som Malin. Toms magi känns som ett slag i magen; man tappar andan och fattar inte vad som hänt! Also, is it a reputable site? Thanks, Elonka 00:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh, yes it is a reputable site, if you want theatre tickets in Sweden, but not for independent verification, as I'm afraid that the text is partly from my own hand - from the pressrelease of the theatre show I wrote and produced in 2003. The text is somewhat based on things journalists have written in the past. But it can't be used. I'll translate it anyway :-)

Tom Stone is one of the foremost magicians in northern Europe, and internationally known among his collegues as an creator of new magic effects and principles. He and Malin has performed at Magic Castle. Tom's magic is like taking a punch in the stomach, you loose both breath and orientation...

It's not a perfect translation, but it's close. Btw, the girl on the picture is my former girlfriend, an excellent artist - unfortunately also suffering from Borderline etc. I'm still recovering from that nightmare.

The name of the show was "Bakom Dimridån" (Behind the curtain of mist) and ran for 5 weeks in November-December 2003 on Theatre 23 in Malmo Sweden. Got quite good reviews.

(The show you took the small picture from was titled "Mellow Men & Hard Hats", if you wondered what the title said. Ran in october this year in Stockholm)

Okay, let's go over the "good reviews" statement. Reviews where? Newspapers, magazines, TV? Do you have clippings? Even if they're not online, it could be helpful for you to list them here. Elonka 04:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Biography

Even though this probably can't go into the article since it's not verified, could you please give me some more biographical information, at least here? It will help improve the article indirectly, by giving me (and other editors) more context, as well as potential other locations to do research. For example, which town were you born in, what did your parents do, which schools did you go to, when did you first start playing around with magic, where was your first performance, do you have any family members who are in the magician trade? I've got more questions too, but we can start with those.  ;) Elonka 04:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure - but isn't it beginning to be a bit over the top now? Not even the three greatest (now living) magicians in the world have this much coverage (Max Maven, Juan Tamariz & Tommy Wonder ) - so it is beginning to feel a bit awkward. But I leave that decision to you. Anyone who doesn't like it can remove it, I guess.

It should be possible to start with the article written by Christer Nilsson at Swedish Magic Achive - as that was printed in Pegasus, a real paper magazine - and put the text on the we site. And he should be considered an reputable source. Author of the encyclopedia "Trollare och andra underhållare" (Magicians and other entertainers) ISBN 91-7136-409-9

Unfortunately, I'm not mentioned in it, as it was published in 1990, the same year I turned full time professional. Christer has also been responsible for fact checking of all magic-related words in the Swedish National Encyclopedia. That should be enough to at least initially assume that he is considered an authority on the subject of magicians. I'll take a look at it right away --TStone 05:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

No, I didn't mean point me at a biographical article (though that would be good too). I mean answer right here on the discussion page: What town were you born in? Which schools did you go to? Also, regarding "over the top", I disagree -- I think the article could do with quite a bit more expansion, as could the articles of the other individuals you mentioned. As for "greatest living magicians", I have to admit I'd never heard those names. How are you judging that, say, Max Maven is better than a David Copperfield? Is it by awards, industry press, or just personal opinion of their technique? Elonka 09:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, comparisons are not really accurate, but simplified: Copperfield ask Max for advice, and most of his big TV-shows have contained at least one Max Maven creation. Lance Burton ask Max for advice. Penn & Teller - the same. No matter where in the world you are, it is Max' advice you are looking for, and it is a safe bet that you will get it. I live in Sweden, on the other side of the world, and he has taken an active interest in my work since 1992-93, even though we met first in 1995. His knowledge of the art is extensive, the knowledge of its history likewise. The number of his creations and innovations are staggering, and if you are a performer in the field of mentalism, it is a safe bet that you perform at least 4-5 of his creations on a regular basis. Most people in the business - if they had the choice to see a performance of Max or Copperfield wouldn't hesitate a second in their choice. And his creations are simply beautiful on all levels. You know, the old Public Domain-pieces are usually "This is how it looks - this is how its done" - that simple. But a Max Maven creation has to be unfolded carefully, as it is layer after layer of crossbred thoughts and ideas, each one interlocking with eachother, in a very aestetic way. Breathtaking! I've spent many many joyful hours studying a piece of Max' trying to backtrack his line of thought in the piece, figuring out how the hell he must have thought to get this result - And I've seldom succeeded, but the hours spent is now clearly visible in my own work. Tommy Wonder from Holland, and Juan Tamariz in Spain has a similar status. Difference is that Max works with crossbreeding of ideas, Tommy Wonder use drama and control of attention, and Tamariz use layers of deception, creating work of equal beauty. And it is the same there, I can not for my life figure out how they must have thought, but my efforts to understand has had a clear influence in my own work. My own proudest piece, named "Mr. Fogg" took me ten years to evolve, and the main driving force was to try to emulate something that could have been the result of a brainstorming session of those three - and the result is something that is quite different from any of their work, but still resonates of similar ideas...and is still packed with ideas unique to me. If you take a look, the first quote on the Tracking Mr. Fogg-page is from Tommy Wonder himself. --TStone 11:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Aha! Thank you for explaining. So Maven is the "magician's magician" -- though he doesn't have the public recognition of the others, he is an industry-respected innovator and mentor, and those are the criteria that you use to define "great". We should definitely work on an article about him then. If you can pile up references on his discussion page (or feel free to take a stab at writing the article itself, if you're comfortable you can stick to WP:NPOV). Now, my next question is one of terminology. What word do you use in the industry to distinguish between the publicly-known magicians such as Copperfield, Penn & Teller, Siegfried & Roy, Doug Henning, etc., to define their fame? If they're not on a list of "great", what list would you put them on? Elonka 16:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Well..how about "famous"? It's a bit tricky, because it is a difference between the practice of an art, and transforming the art. If the theme was music, and we were talking about composers who also were designers of new instruments and experts in acoustics...Where would you place Frank Sinatra? Or talking about Alfred Hitchcock and the art of movie making, where should actor James Stewart come in? Copperfield has a place in our history for discovering new and innovative ways of using the TV-medium. Techniques that didn't exist before him, that now is considered to be thumb of rule when shooting magic for TV. Also for dramatizing (is that a word?) magic. Many of his older pieces are like short stories, in which illusions are used to drive the story forward ("I met a girl, but suddenly she went away..I wandered the streets, seeing her face everywhere.." etc). That had been made before, but not to that extent. Doug Henning: changing the rules on how a magician "should" look (don't think the networks had gambled on Copperfields "short stories" if Henning hadn't paved the way). Sigfried: integrating wild animals as a part of the art (instead of having them as replaceable objects). Someone like Teller belongs in both realms, although it is just recently his contributions to the art has started to be recognized. Max Maven would have gotten public recognition a long time ago, if he had managed to stay in one place long enough - but he's wanted everywhere. There's many countires where his name is unknown, but show people a video clip, and they go: -"Oh, I have seen him before!". His own TV-show in England. His own TV-show in Canada. A regular spot in the "Magiskt"-series in Sweden, etc. etc.

I would probably find it difficult staying NPOV writing about Max, Tommy Wonder, Tamariz, just like an art lover would have trouble being NPOV talking about Rembrandt, DaVinci and Picasso :-)

Okey, details then :-) There's a map of Sweden here:

Follow the coustline on the left side. I'm raised on a small farm a few kilometres outside the village "Hamburgsund" (60 kilometres north of "Uddevalla", it is where the "V" in "Vänersborg" is on the map), the village where I went to school. After finishing 9'th grade in the "grundskola" (don't know the corresponding english term for the basic education), I left the farm, aged 15, and got my own apartment in the town "Uddevalla" to study "gymnasium"-level electronic engineering for 4 years at "Östraboskolan". After that, two years education of graphic design at "Agnebergsskolan" (finishing in 1989). Since I was 16 years, I had supported myself by doing performances at different events, family gatherings, children's parties. Local newspaper "Bohuslänningen" ran their first feature story on me in 1984, reported my 3'rd prize at the scandinavian championships in Helsinki in 1985, and my 2'nd prize at Swedish Championships in Linköping 1986, and so on. I also had started writing, encouraged by comments made by other magicians in regard to my editorship of the quarterly magic magazine "Tricks" published by Gothenburg Magic Club. (The former editor asked for assistance in 1986 because he had to get surgery, and I volunteered. Then he died, and nobody told me I didn't have to continue, and I was too shy to ask. So I continued for 8 years). And in march 1990, I and 9 amateur actors had premiere on a 2-hour detective comedy at the small theatre "Studio32" in Uddevalla, a play written, produced and directed by me (I was still to shy to understand that it was possible to ask others for assistance, so I did it all myself, because I didn't know other ways were possible). "Bohuslänningen" ran big feature on it, front page and 2 pages inside. 12 performances were planned, but had to be extended to 31. Parallell to this, I searched for work as a technical illustrator, because I had been taught that I needed a "proper" job. At the end of the summer 1990, I accidentally witnessed a burglary, recognizing two of them, known for drug use and violence. Started to get threatening phone calls etc. So, without planning or anything, I left everything in Uddevalla and moved to Göteborg (Gothenburg) in september 1990. At the same point I also realized that it was stupid to be depressed over not getting a "proper" job, because I had supported myself quite alright on performances for several years, so I took the step to be professional magician... I don't know, is this what you want Elonka? Most of it is close to impossible to verify over the net --TStone 00:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

My father, Henry Bengtsson (born 1926), a farmer (and a person with a natural talent of immediately getting the hang of, or "knack" of everything from farming, harvesting, welding to photography, sculpting, painting etc. - but without understanding or recognizing that as a talent, thinking that anyone who has to fight and struggle to learn anything is just lazy, unintrested or stupid.)

• Maiken Bäckström (born 1948), married him aged 18, and divorced him 10 years later after getting five children:
• Maria (1966)- Mentally handicapped due to oxygen lack at birth, lives in a group-house in Uddevalla.
• Thomas (1967) - Mentally handicapped due to magic :-)
• Johan (1970) - Started with laying carpets, work injury, re-educated to computer teacher.
• Louise (1972) - Education in graphics, then theatre, worked briefly with striptease, and ended up as a politically active pre-shool teacher.
• Åsa (1974) - locally known as a singer in Uddevalla area. --TStone 01:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

More works

• "Too Perfect Imperfect"October 2001 Theoretical piece where I refute Rick Johnson's famous "Too Perfect Theory".
• "Aquatic Duel"July 2000 A more light-hearted creation: Russian Roulette with water pistols :-)

I published around 12-13 creations in Genii magazine during the 90's when Erika Larsen was editor, but I don't think they have the contents from those issues on the internet

A couple of things from Magic magazine:

• http://www.magicmagazine.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2&sort=2d&page=6 Sept 1996
• http://www.magicmagazine.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2&sort=2d&page=2 Jun 2003
• http://www.magicmagazine.com/april04/april04contents.html April 2004

And here is NTV's own listing of participants in the big show that was aired on the japanese new years eve. Is there an auto-translation from japanese, or perhas get assistance from japanese wiki? Would be nice to know if the title they gave me was correct :-)

• http://www.ntv.co.jp/supertv/01_week_contents/050103/this_week/toi.html

And commentary from someone who saw the show:

• http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001358

Also, I just remembered that I'm apparantly listed at the end of James Randis encyclopedia "Conjuring" from 1992, as one of the future stars in magic, listed as "Tom Bengtsson". I have not seen this myself, but it was Randi who told me about it, so it might be true. --TStone 04:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm also a contributor to a beginners magic book in Japan: p.150 in "Business Magic" by Hiro Sakai (2002). ISBN4-490-20482-5 --TStone 04:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

And, I was responsible for fact checking in the swedish translation of Jeffrey Deaver's "The vanished man" :-) --TStone 15:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Japan

I've found a few pages from my first visit to Japan in 1999, when I was booked at Ton Onosaka's "Magic Friends Convention".

This seems to be a review of two booklets of mine that had been translated into japanese. And here I'm just hanging out with Max Maven. (Btw. It was here I got booked to FISM the following year).--TStone 03:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Tom Stone - not good enough magician for encylopaedia

There should not be article on such magician like Tom Stone.

He is entertainer like many artists like cabaret singers, circus acts from many circuses and also even very successful strip tease artists. Nobody will think to agree that these other artists who are paid by public or even they know and are appreciated by their colleague professionals should have article in encyclopaedia.

Also I can do a search with Yahoo or MSN or Google and only this article which is written also by Tom Stone comes in first page of search results. So it is obvious Mr. Stone is using your encyclopaedia like an advertisement for himself.

Mr. Stone's magic is what all magicians do. He is the same category as any magician who is professional and makes tricks in the hotels, for children's parties or also dinner parties or even conferences. I have seen how Mr. Stone refers to himself in the article as being an 'original magician'.

The most interesting information is the video clip of Mr. Stone from a Japanese programme with 5 close up magicians. If magicians review this video they will see that there are not any original ideas. Most amazing is that the two items he receives most clapping for are one effect which magician from Belgium Carlos Vaquera made very famous by performing at International Magic Convention in London when he won first prize maybe 20 years ago. There is a video of this performance by Carlos where he shows a coin seem to rise up in the air from his hand and be received by the other hand about 45 centimeters higher. I can see that Mr. Stone has won second prize in this competition many years after. Then in the Japan video Mr. Stone presents two cups and balls magic. But almost all the strong points are from ideas from my uncle Tommy Wonder from 20 years before.

Here is the video of my uncle to compare: http://youtube.com/watch?v=MJ6qT8JvaMY Here now is the video of Tom Stone to compare: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0KDriiutF4k

Mr. Stone has tried to make some reputation as a performing magician - but he has stolen ideas from my uncle and from my uncle's friend Carlos Vaquera and is passing these off as his own creations. This is not ethical and he does not mention in any place that his most popular magic is based on the magic of these much more superior magicians.

I also ask the question: Tommy Wonder and Carlos Vaquera are very great magicians; one of them, my uncle, is dead. But they have very little article about them in this encyclopaedia. I do not think in any case Mr. Stone will dare to insult them by writing about them. But if you enter their names on a search engine you will see that they are giants in magic - and by comparison Mr. Stone does not deserve any mention.

Carlos Vaquera has more than 20,000 unique Google entries and is a big star with the public in Belgium. Tommy Wonder has more than 40,000 entries and is dead. No person in general public knows about Tom Stone by comparison (I stress by comparison). Also, many general newspapers have written about Vaquera and Wonder - they are considered important and good magicians by this more important standard of unconnected media which can not be controlled by small circles of magicians who write about each other and make each other 'famous' that way in their internet blogs and also magic magazines.

I loved my uncle Tommy because he was completely original. Completely. I also know Carlos Vaquera from 20 years ago when i was a small child - he is a perfomer who is in a different standard to Mr. Stone. Carlos is a world class personality. With all respect to Mr. Stone he may have to make his profession from selling magic tricks to people and needs for companies to pay him to entertain their parties and so on. But there are 20 Mr. Stones in most cities in America and also europe; it is ridiculous if they will all have articles because they are 'professional'.

This encyclopaedia should not be used by Mr. Stone to untruthfully support his suggestion that he is an important magician or that he is famous because of original magic; as I show with Vaquera and Tommy Mr. Stone is only doing copy of their best magic.

There are many not famous magicians who are better magicians and are really original compared to Mr. stone but they are not with his big ego and active with internet. Even many magicians who copy other magicians do this better than Mr. Stone.

But more important the public must not think this is a magician who has an article in an encylopaedia because he is special. There is nothing special or notable about Mr. Stone compared to many other magicians like Tommy and Carlos who deserve bigger articles. So Mr. Stone should not be permitted by the encylopaedia to give him such big publicity.

Jan Antwerpmagic 02:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether I'm notable or not is a question for others, but I really must object to your hostility. Tommy was a very good friend, and I've had nothing but a pleasant conversation with Carlo Vaquera. It was Tommy who in 1995 booked me to a convention in Amsterdam, after watching me perform in Sweden, performing - yes - the cups and balls, and gave me both compliments and suggestions for further developement. When I eventually made an instruction-DVD, Tommy gave me a quote for the cover saying: -"Tom is one of the most creative magicians here in Europe. His work is always stimulating and worthy of attention." magic, and as Tommy had integrity, he would never have said something like that if he didn't really mean it. In 2002 I arranged for Tommy to give a 5-day workshop in Sweden, as well as bringing him here again in 2003. To help me realise a few of my ideas, Tommy did not only engage in intensive brainstorming, but also gave me his old lathe and other tools. He also contributed articles to my magazine "Dr. Faustus Journal". Feel free to check with Carlos Vaquera, Gaetan Bloom, Flip, Tonny Van Rhee, Dan LaFey or Dick Koornwinder for reference. The gift of the lathe were even referenced in Tommy's obituary in a Dutch newspaper, as an example of how supportive he was when he liked a person's ideas. I also said my final farewell to Tommy at site.TStone (talk) 04:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

This is incredible but a person who is supporting this article the most after Tom Stone is Elonka Dunin who is like Mr. Stone responsible for the most part for the existence of an article about herself.

This is very bad. I must be of course naive but how can this be responsible if people organise to support each other to have articles. Dunin is the main supporter for this article about Tom Stone but she has also open with being vain to have been making an article about herself.

This is really terrible. Antwerpmagic 03:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. What is this non-entity. Yes so some magicians know him because of his own efforts to use internet and here in Wikipedia. But I am Swedish and quite well informed and I have never heard or seen him. Maybe you Jan can now make this smaller. Makes him look big to mention books he has of course published himself; a cheap trick. Coolaid4u 00:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Coolaid - I am not able to find my password so I think I wait until I discover this information. Jan. This is my new account. Antwerpmagic2 09:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Also Coolaid, you have seen who is your allocated editor from wikipedia? It is the person who more or less has given this article all this prominence. Also she has criticism on her page like this also. Jan Antwerpmagic2 10:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not you have personally heard of someone, are not the guidelines for notability here. I do not know Stone personally, but he is well-known within the industry, as is confirmed by references in multiple secondary publications. Please see Wikipedia:Notability for more information on Wikipedia guidelines in this regard. --Elonka 16:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

When I do a search I find plenty of references to him in established magic publications, some of which are cited in the article (I'm not advocating search hits as a measure of notability - just saying that they help find supporting references). Maybe Stone is not the world's most famous magician, and certainly not known outside the magic community like Copperfield, Blane etc., but he does seem to have some respect within the magic trade - including as a publisher of original material (magic is a small sector and so a lot of significant material is self-published). I could understand calls for deletion if he was just a local magician trying to use Wikipedia as an advert, but he is above that level and the article does not read like the clumsy PR speak that usually qualifies for rapid deletion. I really can't understand why Coolaid4u and Antwerpmagic2 are so hostile to this article. If you think other magicians, such as Tommy Wonder or Carlos Vaquera, are more deserving of coverage then why not just go expand the Tommy Wonder article or start one on Carlos? Circusandmagicfan 17:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

To clarify, under the principle of WP:AGF: Please do not assume that because there is a longer article about Tom Stone, that this somehow means that he is more important than other magicians. As a whole, Wikipedia articles about anything magic-related are fairly weak. There are many notable magicians who should have bios, who don't have bios yet. Part of this is because of the secrecy of the industry, and the difficulty in finding reliable sources for any but the most famous of the Vegas and television performers. And part of it is simply a lack of volunteers who are willing to work on magic-related articles. Antwerp and Coolaid, if you would like to help with this, we would love to have your assistance. Please feel free to join Wikipedia:WikiProject Magic, where we are trying to create both a database of all the magic-related articles on Wikipedia, and also guidelines on how those articles are to be maintained. As for Tommy Wonder, I agree that his article is very brief, and needs expansion. You are also correct, that there was no article on Carlos Vaquera, but I went ahead and created a stub page today: Carlos Vaquera. As Circusandmagicfan indicated, please feel free to work on it. If nothing else, it would be helpful to (1) provide a list of sources (books and articles), which other editors can use to expand the bio; and (2) since it sounds like you know these individuals, it would be very helpful if you could provide a photo which we could use on the bio. Best, Elonka 17:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay Okay. Mr. Stone is a very nice and creative man. We are all friends now and maybe you can make a page for me as reward? I am a graphic designer and have achieved important successes. Jan Antwerpmagic2 12:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)