Talk:OK

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This phrase has a fascinating etymology,history, legal history and ties to American History. This Canadian who would love to see an American write this non-controversial article. User:Two16

"Non-controversial"? No, no. Everything in the Wikipedia is controversial! ;) I don't think the "Oll Korrect" initialism theory is universally accepted. I've heard one theory that the word "okay" came from an African language, and was introduced into America by slaves. I have no idea if this is based on hard evidence, but since I did read it somewhere, I thought I'd bring it up. Now, if I could only remember which book I read it in... -- Oliver P. 10:18 27 May 2003 (UTC)

I've heard the same theory, but also lack an attributable source. Someone with a good etymological dictionary like the OED (I don't have one) ought to see what they have to say. Jmabel 11:40, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I've added the African origin claim, along with a source link to a Wiki entry almost completely dedicated to that discussion. -- Prell 23:14, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Why does "OK" redirect to "Okay," when the article seems to prefer "OK" in usage? Shouldn't it be the other way around? User:Xanzzibar

"The US president Jackson also wrote it in 1760 and a Boston businessman used it in a daily journal in 1815." Some citation or explanation, please, this doesn't seem to jive with the espoused etymology. Kevin Saff 22:40, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC) President Jackson in 1760 ???? -please check your history

Also the m-w link looks broken. Kevin Saff 22:46, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This article is far too definitive in accepting the theory that OK is derived from the initials of some other phrase. The article implies that Read was the last word on the subject; it relegates other views to the category of "competing theories"; it says "supposedly" about the existence of the Choctaw word, which as far as I know is undisputed, regardless of whether the Choctaw "okeh" was the source of our current expression. Jackson didn't use the expression in 1760, he not having been born yet, but the Boston businessman's use in 1815 is documented. One scholar writes: "The traveler's name was Richardson, and the 'Richardson OK' occurs in the entry for February 21, 1815. That entry includes this sentence 'Arrived at Princeton, a handsome little village, 15 miles from N Brunswick, ok & at Trenton, where we dined at 1 P.M.'" (Fay paper - a lengthy rebuttal of Read, arguing in favor of the Choctaw origin). Kevin Saff is correct that this evidence doesn't jibe with the espoused etymology. If Read's view nevertheless still has adherents, perhaps the article should be recast (including new headlines) to present the various theories on an equal footing, without endorsing any one of them. I'm not familiar enough with Wikipedia to know whether the NPOV ideal applies to subjects like this one. JamesMLane 14:54, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, James, your explanation seems more likely to me. Could you flesh out the Choctaw origins a bit more in the article? I don't know how many people support Read's view over the Choctaw etymology. -Kevin Saff 22:32, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have noticed that this word is in common usage outside of the U.S. Is that from widespread American influence or because the word has a common influence from somewhere else(e.g. African Slaves)?--Pete Welch 04:22, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is such a stoner conversation

Too much Simpsons

There are too many Simpsons references throughout Wikipedia. Does this article really need to mention Ned Flanders? Taco Deposit 02:17, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

This is only one reference, and it's reasonably related to the subject of the article. I don't think any de-Simpsonizing is needed here. JamesMLane 03:36, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

More on the History of OK

H.L. Mencken, The American Language, abridged edition, ed. Raven I. McDavid Jr. with David W. Maurer (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1977), pp. 169-175, contains a brief history of the origin of this Americanism (agreeing with this article that it originated in Boston), with a list of 10 alternative etymologies. (One etymologist traced it to the French "O qu-oui"; those darned Frenchmen have a word for everything!) It also lists A. W. Reed's publications on ths word. A source worth mining for this article if for no other reason than to mention Martin van Buren's O.K. Club. -- llywrch 05:15, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The most convincing rendition of the history of OK I have seen was by Cecil Adams (of The Straight Dope fame) which can be found here: What does "OK" stand for?. --Broquaint 12:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Current usage around the world?

The etymology has been done to death, here and other places. I'd love to see more information in this article about current usage of OK around the world in other languages. I understand that it is quite common (though it seems to rarely take on all the meanings that it has in English), but I haven't been able to find much information about it in a brief search. Perhaps people from non-English speaking countries could relate their first-hand experience? I think it is fascinating that a single word invented so recently could fill a gap missing in so many world languages. --Anon (haven't yet got around to registering) 06:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm from the Netherlands (it's inbetween England and Germany) and I can tell you that pretty much every European uses the 'word' OK.

Italians also use this phrase, quite often. Thought they say the phrase as I (an American) say it, even though the Italian name for the letter ‘K’ is kappa. Does this imply the Italians adopted the okay version? This usage doesn’t seem to fill any “holes” in Italian that I am aware of as they have va bene (go good), and tutto bene (all good). My understanding is that va bene and ok are synonymous.

In Brazil the word is also used... Both with it's original pronunciation and local traslation of O (ó) and K (ká), forming up something like "okah". The meaning is wide too, and can possibly be used EXACTLY as in english, but the most common usage is for confirming something as a reply... like "I got it" or "roger"... =/ I'm no logged now... my user is user:1ur1, if you really decide to put a section about international uses, I can be more precise if you need... =)...

It seems to me that the "kk" variant of okay may be from Engrish users online who also say, for instance, "hihi" when no native speaker I know would consider that standard usage. I hypothesize that both doublings may come from the more common "bye-bye" or perhaps such doubling is common in their languages; but as this is all wild conjecture on my part I am not yet prepared to stick in in the article; perhaps someone with more knowledge of the subject could lay my idea to rest one way or the other.

This is actually the reason I checked Wikipedia for OK. I wanted to see its usage around the world. I'm glad to have found some information in the discussion page, but I agree that there should be something about it in the article. - nwall

I'd like to see more about the current usage in the English-speaking world. The word has become really generic and has a lot more uses than mentioned in the article, but I don't really want to try to tackle that myself. -- KillerDeathRobot 17:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Correct spelling

I deleted the bit about the "correct" spelling, as it's a dubious claim at best to my eyes. Dictionaries recognize both equally, and "okay" is usually listed as an alternate spelling to OK. --Xanzzibar 02:21, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree, although it's probably more a matter for a style manual. Of three style manuals I looked at, one said "OK, never O.K. or okay", one said "O.K., not OK or okay" and the third preferred "okay." Shoaler 11:43, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But what is Ok corral? -- Kizor 00:58, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Are you referring to The Gunfight at the O.K. Corral? --Xanzzibar 03:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Apparently. --Kizor 06:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

That would probably be a reference to a fictitious cattle brand. The "CircleK". hypotaxis 09:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

"Okely dokely"

Provide proof that this is in wide usage. It's fine to mention it in the Ned Flanders article if you really must, but it is of no broader relevance. Grace Note 01:39, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with this assessment. I think it was okely dokely to include it here, would like to see it re-inserted.--grubbmeister 06:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Okely dokely is a Flanderisation of the well-established 'okey-dokey' or 'okey-doke'. Maybe they can be mentioned.

Mkay

Unless I'm mistaken (not sure, so I didn't add it myself) the "Mkay" variant comes from the film Office Space, more specifically from Bill Lumbergh. (It is later used in South Park as well.) Shouldn't this be added? Retodon8 15:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

"Mkay" has been around forever, it predates Office Space by many, many years. Certainly longer than my lifetime, and I'm no spring chicken. I assume it originated in the Midwest. Office Space and South Park merely popularized it recently. I like the idea of including a blurb about Mkay as a variant, but not if it's credited to some recent movie. Druff 23:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I have also heard "mkay" long before Office Space. - nwall

ok

O.K has origin fron Greek frase (O)la (K)ala ,(Όλα Καλά) that means All Good or everything is good

Reference

why does it cite webster's even though it gives oxford's example?

English soliders

I heard a story from my english teacher that expresion OK came from english troops (not sure in which war), that after battle wrote number of killed on that day. OK = 0 (zero) K(illed).

Now where's that apocryphal tag...

Although I'm not going to be the one to do it, you had better provide some references. I mean my daddy told me some of these fairy tales when I was growing up, but let's see some better scholarship folks! Silly rabbit kicks are for trigs.

I have created a Legends section and moved the various apocryphal portions of the article there. Best, Silly rabbit 11:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC) P.S., I'm not sure if all of the "Other possible origins" section should be moved there, but I leave it to the etymologists and linguists to decide.

I'm moving the greek Ola Kala into legends until someone can provide a reference which at least predates the earliest english usage within the OED. Silly rabbit 19:20, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

'Ok is Alright'

I have had an interest in the expression ok and it's partner alright. I think this is important to understand it's probable usage. The fact that 'ok' is often coupled with 'alright'. i.e. "Are you ok?" "Yes I'm alright." These expressions are electrified in the American dialect in times of panic, duress, excitement, etc.. Hence, the probable common usage could have been with the development of the telegraph. People wanted to know how could they get those letters to travel down the wires. They also wanted to know "What does 'ok' mean?" "It means alright." I haven't been able to afford to research personnal diaries on the arrival of the telegraph, but the telegraph did anihilate time and space in a magical way. People had to have been electrified with news and information from far away that had been inaccessible before.

The persons with the most aptitude for sending telegraph messages could have been typsetters, printers, and the like. Possibly the 'ok' was a common notation in the margin of an uncut printed page. Later, telegraph messages had to be relayed and resent over distance. Ok became a common transmission to the telegraphers and may appear on old telegrams. Once again, a modern use of 'ok' is that it is 'alright'. I have even talked to immigrant West Africans in public. A woman from Nigeria responded reluctantly but certain, "Oh yes! We use 'ok' in Nigeria...it means 'alright'. Although a taxi driver from Sierra Leone replied, "No we don't have such a word, maybe the closest would be 'Ohma' meaning great."

So it's possible that 'OK' was tied to British Imperial expansion. A survey of the modern British Commonwealth could reveal a pattern of usage for 'ok' and 'alright'. What technology could the United States have been purchasing from Great Britain that harbored the term 'ok'? The first commerical telegraph line in the United States famously completed in 1844. The first usages of 'ok' in dictionaries appear several years before this first commercial telegraph line. In any case, a modern workplace is punctuated with the expressions 'ok' and 'alright'. Possibly 'oll korrect' is Cornish and coined by the work of Humphry Davies. Mr. Davies apprentice was Michael Faraday who had been a bookbinders apprentice as an adolescent. Could a notation such as 'ok' appear in their work?

"Man lives not by bread alone, but chiefly by catchwords." Robert Louis Stevenson. Dudberg, December 5, 2005.

Anyone follow this one?? 195.7.54.2 16:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

O.K.

In Vienna a taxi driver told me his story about O.K. These are the initials of one Otto Kaiser. He worked in the Ford factory and his job was to control the cars. He was that last control and he signed them with O.K, ment this car was controlled by Otto Kaiser and you can be sure it is alright , so it is O.K. . Real or not, it is a fine story.

Mumbo jumbo

I hid most of the text at the bottom of the article. As said there, it should be cleaned up or removed altogether. ^KILO-_LIMA 19:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Erroreous Sentence on Spelling

The current article contains:

"Whatever its origin, the word spread around the world, the "okay" spelling of it first appearing in British writing in the 1860s. Spelled out in full in the 20th century, 'okay' has come to be.."

Is this sentence supposed to say that the "OK" spelling began in 1860s, but in the 20th century was spelled out in full? Or vice-versa? In its current form, the sentence seems meaningless --Alecmconroy 11:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Negative sense of the word

I'm going to go ahead and add my two cents here, okay? I realized yesterday that the word, which basically has only positive connotations, can also be used in a negative way. My wife offered to get some food for me, and I said "that's ok," basically meaning "No, don't get me any food." What does the word "ok" have to do with me not wanting her to do me a favor? I don't know. But I use it like that all the time, and most people around me do, too. I figured that it was worth adding to the usage section because it is commonly used like that here in Western Pennsylvania. Maybe it is a Pittsburghese thing, but I'll bet most parts of the country use it that way. It could be very confusing to a non-English speaking person. --Scott W

It's not just a Pittburgh thing. "That's all right", "that's fine", and whatnot can be used in the same way, too. I'm not sure whether you'd consider that use of it to be an idiom, sarcasm, or something else, though. --Xanzzibar 22:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

If we extend the general concept of "okay" to other languages, then it's also not just in English. For example, in Japanese if you're offered something like a drink you might refuse with iie, kekkou desu (lit. "No, [I'm] fine"). I think it's probably an implicit "I'm okay as is, don't bother on my account" or something to that effect. 164.55.254.106 22:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree here -- saying "That's ok" is just short for "That situation is ok, you don't need to do whatever you're wanting to do."

from OED

quote from OED online:

[App. < the initial letters of oll (or orl) korrect, jocular alteration of ‘all correct’: see A. W. Read in Amer. Speech (1963) 38, (1964) 39, etc.

From the detailed evidence provided by A. W. Read it seems clear that O.K. first appeared in 1839 (an instance of a contemporary vogue for humorous abbreviations of this type), and that in 1840 it became greatly reinforced by association with the initialism O.K. n., O.K. int. (see discussion s.v.).

Other suggestions, e.g. that O.K. represents an alleged Choctaw word oke ‘it is’ (actually the affirmative verbal suffix -okii ‘indeed, contrary to your supposition’), or French au quai, or Scottish English och aye, or that it derives from a word in the West African language Wolof via slaves in the southern States of America, all lack any form of acceptable documentation.

Competing theories as to the origin of the expression have been in evidence almost since its first appearance; cf.:

1840 Lexington Intelligencer 9 Oct. 3/2 O.K. Perhaps no two letters have ever been made the initials of as many words as O.K... When first used they were said to mean Out of Kash, (cash;) more recently they have been made to stand for Oll Korrect, Oll Koming, Oll Konfirmed, &c. &c.

It is not clear whether the ok of the following quotation represents the same expression:

1815 W. RICHARDSON Diary 21 Feb., Arrived at Princeton, a handsome little village, 15 miles from N Brunswick, ok & at Trenton, where we dined.

In form okeh (as used by Dr. Woodrow Wilson: see quots. 1919, 1939 at sense 1 of adjective) on the understanding that the word represents an alleged Choctaw word oke (see above).]

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[< the initial letters of Old Kinderhook, the nickname of Martin Van Buren (1782-1862), president of the United States (1837-41) (< OLD a. + Kinderhook, the name of Van Buren's hometown in New York State), after OK a. and OK int. Cf. Old Hickory s.v. HICKORY n. 2c.

The use as an interjection is purely as an electoral slogan and rapidly comes to overlap with OK int. This assimilation is especially clear late in 1840, during the election proper, when the slogan is used to signal success in a particular locality (see quots. 18402, 18403 at sense B.), although the process had begun within a few weeks of the appearance of the initials:

1840 Democratic Republican New Era (N.Y.) 27 May 2/6 We acknowledge the receipt of a very pretty gold Pin,..having upon it the (to the ‘Whigs’) very frightful letters O.K., significant of the birth-place of Martin Van Buren, old Kinderhook, as also the rallying word of the Democracy of the late election, ‘all correct’... Those who wear them should bear in mind that it will require their most strenuous exertions..to make all things O.K.

Allen W. Read argues that the widespread use of the slogan was critical in popularizing the original, usual sense of OK (see Amer. Speech (1963) 38 83-102).]

--— Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.120.37.16 (talk • contribs)

Some of this stuff should be incorporated into the article; I'm baffled why it has not thus far. In particular, the Richardson ok should be included in its entirety as it has been a great source of controversy. --Chan-Ho (Talk) 16:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

See the IMO (International Maritime Organisation) published book, International code of signals. The 2 letter code signal for message 'It is all correct' is OK.

The first international code was drafted by the British Board of Trade in 1855. This code was then adopted by most seafaring nations.

The code of signals are still in use today and every merchant ship is required to carry a copy of the book and the code flags.

Okay is the new Hip Word

i use the word okay everyday in one way or another.

great article, lots of references. could be a featured article with some improvements. Doidimais Brasil 23:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

OK comes from the GREEK OLA KALA (ΟΚ) (ολα κάλα)- which directly translates into All Good (everything's fine etc.) Believe it or not, it's true

Allen Read steamrolled the etymology of O.K.

The article is extremely inaccurate in its description of the work of Allen Walker Read. This should be clear to anyone who carefully reads all six of his articles in "American Speech", which are available here. Read conclusively documents not only the history of "O.K." and "okay", but also its spread, its evolution, and even the history of its folk etymologies. The word okay seems to uniquely tempt people to come up with explanations of its history, but almost everyone other than Read is content with an unresearched one-sentence or one-paragraph explanation. Read found more evidence for the real history than etymologists usually find for a single word. His work has to be taken as accepted science.

I will change the entry to reflect these conclusions. Greg Kuperberg 17:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I edited the article now, and I also consolidated the sprawl of folk etymologies. I shortened some of the etymologies. I also deleted one particularly silly etymology concerning oak and some 16th century will which just seemed like a lot of free association. Greg Kuperberg 19:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Greg. 138.69.160.1 17:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Moved from article

I just reverted an edit that added a comment to the article, ehich probably belongs here instead, it read as follows. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 02:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a very good article but needs more information. Ok is an essential word in our daily lives and we need it to communicate acceptance with others.