Talk:Republic of Ireland

Prevent abuse of this page to support usage of "Southern Ireland" for the state

In the Name section Replace As well as "Ireland", "Éire" or "the Republic of Ireland", the state is also referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South". with As well as "Ireland", "Éire" or "the Republic of Ireland", the state is also erroneously, or casually referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South".

by adding "erroneously, or casually"

This sentence is regularly used to provide false authority for referring to the state as "Southern Ireland" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.129.84.38 (talk) 20:08, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I think you'd need to provide evidence that what is there is being misread as providing authority for calling it Southern Ireland, or something saying that it is definitely wrong to do so. I know it is called that, and that is not its name, but I haven't seen anything actively saying it is wrong to do so, and it is important not to stick our own thoughts into Wikipedia, so that's why some citation would be useful before doing anything along those lines. Dmcq (talk) 21:41, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

It is sometimes referred-to as 'Southern Ireland' in order to distinguish it from Northern Ireland, which is a different country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.8.216 (talk) 08:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

The current state should never be referred to as Southern Ireland, a state that no longer exists and even then existed for less then a year, but, if needs must, as "southern Ireland". ww2censor (talk) 09:47, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Use 'Republic of Ireland' if you need to distinguish it from Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 11:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Or just Ireland. You’ll hear people talk about Ireland and Northern Ireland all the time these days. It’s in the Brexit press. No one gets confused. The ‘confusion’ idea is just politics. FrenchMalawi.

I have to say, having read through the article for other reasons just now, that I do think that this section needs work. I think we do need to distinguish the common names, Ireland, RoI and Eire, from "Southern Ireland" or "the South" which are mostly used in a very limited context. At least they should be in a separate sentence, as the sometimes-republican tags like "the 26 counties" already are.SeoR (talk) 13:16, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Is Irish Free State still a common name too? Eire is on your list there. Where do we end it! Leprechaun Land?

Article Name

The page should be moved to Ireland (country), because that is its official (constitutional) name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:3974:4028:B84A:9907:9F7:AEBD (talk) 13:27, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

If yoiu read the FAQs at the top of the article an note "Many discussions have been had on this matter, and current consensus is to use Ireland to describe the island and Republic of Ireland to describe the state. By order of WP:ARBCOM, all future discussions of this article's title must take place at a special project set up to deal with this issue. (Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration) MilborneOne (talk) 14:19, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

It should be at "Ireland" or "Ireland (country)" (like Georgia's); the island article should be at "Geography of Ireland" or "Ireland (island)". But, for now we're stuck with this unfortunate arrangement. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 05:29, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

While you're at it you could try renaming the United Kingdom article to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or France to the French Republic. Dmcq (talk) 13:22, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

No, that comparison doesn’t work. We’re talking about shortening the name to 1 word. You’re talking about increasing a title name from two to eight. And to a name no one uses, whereas Ireland is the common name for Ireland. FrenchMalawi who doesn’t know how to use tildas on an iPad.

A successful attempt to effectively silence debate on this seems to have stifled progress on this. Since the debate kicked off the Myanmar article has moved on. We’re all hearing about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland these days. It’s so ridiculous that the article title hasn’t moved on too. User:Illegitimate Barrister, is there any current concerted effort to get this back on the agenda? I don’t know how to use tildas on an iPad so I don’t know how to sign my posts these days. Apologies for that. It’s FrenchMalawi here.

No attempts to get it back on an agenda, as no one has presented anything new. Additionally please don't make edits that change Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state). Just because that's your preference doesn't mean it can be changed and it's against policy. It's considered disruptive. Canterbury Tail talk 15:01, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

I think you are the editor who left a message for me on my personal User page today accusing me of disruptive editing or something like that and saying I could loose editing privileges. That seems a rather OTT, don’t you think? What on earth in the above was so dispruptive as to warrant such a threat? I don’t agree with you on the principle you mention though. One doesn’t need new things to discuss old matters. Imagine how far the world’s philosophers would have gotten if they were prohibited from discussing things that weren’t new! The Burma/Myanmar discussion was the same old discussion it always had been for many years until the article was renamed. It’s the same logic for the Ireland article.

Separately, if Canterbury, you could be kind enough to tell me how to use tildas to sign off on an iPad, that would be appreciated and you could tell me that here or on my talk page - I know my edits look a bit messy withou being properly signed with tildas. FrenchMalawi.

Pronunciation

There is a link to an audio file with "Eire" pronunciation. But it is wrong. Completely wrong! --62.18.205.106 (talk) 15:06, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I would not go as far as "completely wrong" - but it is a poor, mis-inflected, rendering, and I have removed the link. I am sure one of the many interested editors can record and upload a well-pronounced Éire. Thanks for the alert.SeoR (talk) 15:37, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think the pronunciation was all that bad. It was better than a proposal from last December Talk:Republic_of_Ireland/Archive_20#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_1_December_2018 which I though was just not good enough. Dmcq (talk) 17:53, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

In fact I think the pronunciation was acceptable and so am replacing it. I'm sure there must be a tag around for requesting an improvement. Dmcq (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

There's pages for requesting pronunciations at Wikipedia:Requested recordings and Commons:Pronunciation files requests. Dmcq (talk) 18:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I have to disagree - I'm no expert, but I've been hearing and saying Eire all my life, and this is not a good version (while, as I conceded above, not completely wrong, I've heard worse), and with such an item, I'd say better none than badly done. But I leave it to others to consider, and I think the easiest source for a well-pronounced version is our Wikiproject Ireland community...SeoR (talk) 04:12, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

You could always ask someone you think says it well to let you record them so you could try putting it up on Commons. A smartphone can do that well enough I'd have thought. The ogg format is preferred, see Commons:Audio/en. Dmcq (talk) 19:30, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I speak the language, and to me it sounds like a Japanese interpretation of the word. That's how far off this is. Mike Galvin (talk) 23:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

The last person who was so dismissive had something like the start of "arrah you're a complete eejit". But if you can find someone who you think pronounces it well and can get a free sound sample to put into Wikipedia Commons as described above that would be great thanks. Dmcq (talk) 00:35, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Creation of the IPP

The IPP was formed by Isaac Butt rather than Charles Stewart Parnell, yet in this article the latter is credited with its creation in one of the sidebars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.141.217.81 (talk) 11:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Provinces?

Out of curiosity, why are the provinces not even mentioned? --Doradus (talk) 00:04, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, a little surprising. But attached as we are to our provinces, they have neither local importance - we address by street, village / suburb / town, and traditional county - nor legal function. Still, I will review to seek a suitable way to include a mention.SeoR (talk) 07:51, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

“It was officially declared a republic in 1949, following the Republic of Ireland Act 1948.”

Above appears in the article. Doubtless, it echoes tonnes of sources. All, unfortunately, incorrect. You can readily find sources that will confirm that no such thing happened. The Irish government didn’t declare the state a republic in 1949 at all. The Irish government regarded the state as already being a republic. Is there an appetite to correct a common misconception? User talk:Seor, what do you think? User: FrenchMalawi.

Source? Dmcq (talk) 18:36, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

I think the point is that all the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 (which came into force in 1949) actually did was to sort of rename the independent state of Ireland and completely sever the ties with the British monarch. Per the constitution, the state is called just Éire, or in English, Ireland, and this couldn't be changed by a mere Act. Instead, it said that "the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland" (my emphasis).

In a sense, the Act itself is a source showing that FrenchMalawi is right. The Act doesn't explicitly declare Ireland a republic, which it had been for a considerable time anyway. It just gives it a 'description' from which it is clear that it is a republic.

On the other hand, it appears that at the time, the Act had been announced as declaring Ireland a republic, and in a way that is actually what it did. Repealing the External Relations Act implicitly made Ireland a pure republic, with no connection to a monarch. From the simultaneous declaration that Ireland can be described as "the Republic of Ireland" it followed that it must be a republic. In this sense it was a declaration of this consequence.

This is a bit like "I would like to invite you" can be interpreted as technically not being an invitation but just a statement of intent. Yet everyone normally interprets it as an invitation, and that's how it is intended, too. I think slightly more guarded language than "It was officially declared a republic" would be in order to account for this minor complication, but it seems inappropriate to me to draw much attention to this point. And saying it is a misconception doesn't seem accurate to me. If I am told "I would like to invite you", it's not a misconception that I have been invited, just a failure to engage in pedantic hair-splitting. Hans Adler 03:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

QUOTES from Dail debates on ROI Bill in 1948:-

Taoiseach John Costello: “We were not since 1936 a member of the Commonwealth of Nations. We are not leaving it [the Commonealth] because we left it a long time ago. In my view we left it in 1936.”

Leader of the Opposition Eamon de Valera: “We here today are not proclaiming a republic anew; we are not establishing a new state....there is no doubt whatever about it that our state is a republic.”

User talk: Hans Adler you say “it appears” the Act had been announced as declaring a republic. Well, it appears that’s not how the Government or Opposition billed it (see above). Though no doubt that’s how many regarded it. But it’s also besides the point. The legal effect of an Act is what matters. The Act, as you rightly points out, does not purport to declare Ireland a republic. It does no such thing.

You won’t need me to point out that there are many republics whose name doesn’t include the word republic. Why indeed, perhaps the greatest republic of them all, the USA being one. So adding a description to the statute book in addition to the name doesn’t change its constitutional status. I’m sure that’s well understood by you anyway.

User talk: Hans Adler you say Ireland had “already been [a republic] for a considerable time anywa”. Yes indeed. You are certainly correct as a matter of Irish law. The then Irish Government and Opposition would agree with you there. You are bang on correct.

Hans Adler, how you get from that conclusion to the total opposite one, that Ireland was “officially declared a republic” when it clearly wasn’t (you’ve acknowledged as much) does not make sense to me. Maybe that’s something you can develop on for us.

The laws of Ireland and the laws of the United Kingdom conflict as regards what happened in 1949. Irish law and the Irish position is quite clear, there was no creation or declaration of a republic as there already was one. The UK position is enshrined in the Ireland Act 1949 which purports that Ireland was part of His Majesty’s dominions until 1949; a matter not accepted in Irish law whose constitution was very clearly republican.

If we are going to describe what the whole thing is “a bit like” something, I’d say it’s more than a bit like ‘straightforward inaccuracy’. Something repeated so often that persons no longer question it. If the article is concerned with sharing knowledge and the like, it could describe what happened in 1949 and acknowledge that Irish and UK law conflict on the interpretation of what happened. It’s not hair splitting or pedantic. It’s a historically important legal point. FrenchMalawi.

In any case, I immediately found numerous Irish sources (such as this one) claiming that Ireland was declared a republic in 1949, and none doubting it. Without a strong source saying that's a misconception (which you still haven't offered), we can't say it is one. With such a source we would have to find some kind of balanced statement. What I meant to propose is finding some more accurate language, in line with the plain text of the primary source (the Act), that we can use instead of saying Ireland was declared a republic. That could be done without additional sources, provided there is a consensus. Hans Adler 11:10, 14 July 2019 (UTC)