View source for Talk:Beer/Archive 5

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== Stout: Ale, Lager, or both? ==

I previously made a mistake by saying that [[stout]] wasn't ale. I was told that it ''is'' indeed, an [[ale]]. However, after doing some research, it seems that stout can be both top and bottom fermented. Doesn't this imply that it could be considered both types? Someone tell me if I'm wrong?--[[User:Metalhead94|Metalhead94]] ([[User talk:Metalhead94|talk]]) 22:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Stout was originally a Beer, so neither an Ale nor a Lager.[[User:Patto1ro|Patto1ro]] ([[User talk:Patto1ro|talk]]) 10:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

:Hm. I was told quite clearly by [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] that it was an ale.--[[User:Metalhead94|Metalhead94]] ([[User talk:Metalhead94|talk]]) 01:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

::Stout came in 36 gallon barrels, so most definitely a Beer.[[User:Patto1ro|Patto1ro]] ([[User talk:Patto1ro|talk]]) 06:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:::I really don't see how barrel size determines a variety of beer.Hey matt I'm not trying to make a big deal about this, but I thought all beer was broadly classified as either a [[lager]], an [[ale]], or a [[lambic]].--[[User:Metalhead94|Metalhead94]] ([[User talk:Metalhead94|talk]]) 18:46, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Stout is an ale made with dark malts. Lagers made with dark malts tend to be called Schwarzbier or Dunkel. The terms "ale" and "lager" as divisions of beer can be somewhat misleading, as beers are made using combinations of ingredients and methods so that in many cases there isn't the clear distinction that people would like. However, in broad terms, an ale is brewed at a higher temperature and for a shorter time than a lager, resulting in a fuller mouthfeel as less products have been fermented out. A beer brewed with dark malts for a short time at a high temperature would be termed a stout, though could also be termed a porter or a mild depending on the whim of the brewing company. The whole nature of beer classification is an interesting one that usually generates much discussion! <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 13:53, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Brewers refer to beers as ales or lagers based on yeast characteristics- Those which top ferment are ales, those which bottom ferment are lagers- regardless of other ingredients. All beer is one or the other. To further complicate this, the act of lagering - a cold, carefully regulated secondary fermentation, is not done on all lagers. Most lagers are aged at lower temperatures, leading to cleaner flavor profiles- yeasts produce different flavor compounds at different temperatures. Ales are fermented warmer (sometimes in excess of 80 degrees in Belgium), resulting in fruity esters, phenols, etc... The myriad adjuncts, grain types, hopping schedule, and brewing methods help direct a beer into a particular style, but these do not change whether an ale or lager yeast is used. The history on this is somewhat muddled, crossing language barriers, and brewing before humans knew that yeast existed at all. Nevertheless, in modern usage, every beer may be classified as an ale or lager, which is exactly what breweries do. -[[Special:Contributions/76.21.103.36|76.21.103.36]] ([[User talk:76.21.103.36|talk]]) 20:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Beers fermented variously by top and bottom processes are marketed as stouts, but according to Roger Protz's ''Classic Stout and Porter'' (about as close to a definitive source as you're going to get), all true stouts are top-fermented i.e. ales. [[User:Patto1ro|Patto1ro]]: the categorisation of a beer has nothing to do with the size of barrels it came in, and the terms "beer" and "ale" are not mututally exclusive; ale is a subcategory of beer, based on the nature of the fermentation process, as is pointed out clearly in the article. This is very basic stuff.[[User:FrFintonStack|FrFintonStack]] ([[User talk:FrFintonStack|talk]]) 10:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

:For user [[Special:Contributions/76.21.103.36|76.21.103.36]]: There has been much interesting discussion on the issue of where a yeast "ferments" and how it can thus be classified, and how the yeast's behaviour can influence the classification of the beer. Not all "ale" is made with a yeast that [[Flocculation|flocculates]] or foams at the top. Fuller's brewery is a notable example of one that makes "ales" with a yeast that settles at the bottom due to the cylinder-conical tanks they use. A number of other British brewers do the same, including [[Weltons Brewery]]. This may also be helpful: [[Bottom and top fermenting yeast]]. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 18:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

::For [[User:FrFintonStack|FrFintonStack]]. Patto1ro is playing around with the notion of what constitutes a "beer" and an "ale" as the definition has changed over the years. At one time Ale was unhopped, while Beer contained hops. This was a legal definition (so not a point of discussion or debate), and at that time Ale was put into 32 gallon barrels, while Beer was put into 36 gallon barrels. However, Ron has got it slightly wrong as by the time that Stout or Porter was being made in the 18th and 19th centuries, the barrels were either 34 or 36 and could contain either beer or ale.  <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 18:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


The third paragraph should probably be changed entirely.  The description of two types of beer, "pale lagers" and ales is plainly wrong.  It excludes the varieties of lager that are not necessarily pale, but are still lagers.  The term "pale lager" also has derogatory connotations, and more than one meaning, which makes it an inappropriate way to describe such a wide range of styles.  While some lagers might be pale in appearance, they may have little in common with light colored lagers intentionally brewed with little flavor or aroma.  While it might make sense to call a pilsner a pale lager, "pale lager" is also commonly used to describe light yellow beer intentionally produced with little flavor or aroma.  There should also probably be a citation for the comments on the range of alcohol content. [[User:JK01|JK01]] ([[User talk:JK01|talk]]) 22:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

== Ranking ==

''...the third most popular drink overall after water and tea.''

Tea is consumed in greater volume than coffee?  [[User:Sca|Sca]] ([[User talk:Sca|talk]]) 20:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Coffee is definitely more popular than beer in terms of volume.  Also, the source for this claim is pretty bogus.  This statement should be removed.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Fil676|Fil676]] ([[User talk:Fil676|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fil676|contribs]]) 22:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Both of you are seriously underestimating the eastern markets (such as India and China). [[Special:Contributions/85.228.211.14|85.228.211.14]] ([[User talk:85.228.211.14|talk]]) 14:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

:The statement is sourced. However, it can be amended if another reliable source is discovered which updates the information. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 18:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

== Strongest beer ==

I've looked and I can't find any reliable source for Hair of the Dog Dave being the world's strongest beer - nor any reliable confirmation of the abv. The only source is RateBeer, for which there has been questions about the reliability. For a minor detail I would accept RateBeer - however, for a significant claim such as strongest beer ever made, I would like supporting confirmation. The beer was made a little while ago before the internet was so established, so sources are thin on the ground, but I would have thought there would be some mention of it to be found in some newspaper or magazine - perhaps a Portland newspaper, where the brewery is based? [[User:BuildControl|BuildControl]] ([[User talk:BuildControl|talk]]) 10:39, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

== Oldest Alcoholic beverage? ==

I highly doubt that. I don't care what reference you quote at me, it's far more likely that mead or some form of fermented fruit were prepared first, since it's harder to make beer due to having to convert starches first to sugars. Sometimes fruit or honey ferments naturally and it's most probable that Man first prepared artificial beverages from these sources.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.90.51.160|69.90.51.160]] ([[User talk:69.90.51.160|talk]]) 05:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Suggest changing "oldest" to "one of the world's oldest".  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.90.51.160|69.90.51.160]] ([[User talk:69.90.51.160|talk]]) 04:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:There is increasing academic research into this area, and time and again it is found that beer is the oldest alcoholic beverage. This may have something to do with the nature of the crops that were available. The crops that we know today were not the same as were around 11,000 years ago. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 18:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I've always read that mead was the oldest, though I can't quote anyone of the top of my head. Honey is pre-agriculture. In aboriginal Australia they are/were festivals celebrating fruits which fermented on the vine/tree.

:Exactly. Mead predates agriculture, and was more than likely fermented naturally before it was made by man. Thus far it may be that the oldest physical residues DISCOVERED are of beer, but this is not the final say. Indeed, we can never completely resolve the issue, since residues degrade beyond recognizeability and there is always the possiblilty of older residues being found. Since the issue cannot be resolved in this matter, only speculation is possible, and, logically we must speculate that beverages from sugary substances came about first as they are far easier to prepare. I thus contend that saying that beer is unequivocally the world's oldest alcoholic beverage cannot be considered to tell the whole story - a half-truth. Perhaps "Beer is the world's oldest physically identified... alcoholic beverage" would more suit the facts. I believe this to be a suitably scientific statement, and will go ahead and make the edit, but feel free to revert my edit if you feel that it is somehow unjustified.

::Ooookay... the page is protected. I really don't see any reason for this, but if someone could either remove this status or make the edit, or explain why you wish to propagate half-truths... that would be great.

As far as I can see, the oldest physical evidence of an alcoholic drink is a Chinese concoction made in around 7000 BC from a mixture of fruit, honey and rice [http://www.pnas.org/content/101/51/17593.abstract]. I don't believe that this can be called beer. The earliest evidence of beer seems to be from a few millennia later on [http://www.bcin.ca/Interface/openbcin.cgi?submit=submit&Chinkey=139335] [http://www.nature.com/doifinder/10.1038/360024b0]. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the book cited as the source for the claim, but it appears to be a faithful reprint of a book originally written in 1911 [http://www.beerbooks.com/cgi/ps4.cgi?ACTION=enter&thispage=1298&ORDER_ID=!ORDERID!]. I believe newer sources should be allowed to supersede that. I will check with SilkTork for the research he mentions in his comment above. [[User:Takowl|Thomas Kluyver]] ([[User talk:Takowl|talk]]) 16:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

== "Rice Beers" ==

Could someone more expert than I expand discussions of beers using rice as the primary or only form of starch used?  A recent trip to the Orient reminded me of the fine brews there that serve many millions of people.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.177.143.2|66.177.143.2]] ([[User talk:66.177.143.2|talk]]) 01:26, 13 March 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Contradict Tag ==

The [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer#Alcoholic_strength Alcoholic Strength] section claims "In recent years the world production of low alcohol beers and zero alcohol beers has been increasing..." while the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer#Exceptionally_strong_beers Exceptionally Strong Beers] sections claims "the strength of beers has climbed during the later years of the 20th century." Although the two are not mutually exclusive, they do sound contradictory or confusing at the very least. Which statement is most true? The other is unnecessary and creates confusion. [[User:Nrbelex|Nrbelex]] <sup>([[User_talk:Nrbelex|talk]])</sup> 22:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

== fermented from un-malted starches not classified as beer ==

I've amended "Alcoholic beverages distilled after fermentation, fermented from non-starch sources such as grape juice (wine) or honey (mead), or fermented from un-malted starches (rice wine) are not classified as beer." as it is quite common to include unmalted starches in beer, and some third world beers are made by the amylolytic process rather than malting. While malting is a common process in beer making, I've not seen that as a defining quality; same as hops are a common ingredient, but hops are not a defining ingredient. It's an interesting notion, and worth researching - though would need a reliable source to be reinserted. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 07:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:Many beers do include unmalted starches, but these starches are converted to sugar by enzymes created from the malting of other grains. Either way, sake is not beer. [[User:Reub2000|Reub2000]] ([[User talk:Reub2000|talk]]) 22:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
:The problem here is that the passage lists several types of beverages that aren't beer, suggesting that is an exhaustive list. Writing down in the introduction why rice wine isn't a beer would create text that is too long for an intro.[[User:Reub2000|Reub2000]] ([[User talk:Reub2000|talk]]) 08:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

== Colour ==

The final sentence of ppgh one reads...."American brands such as Budweiser, Miller, and Coors."

Each of those breweries is now owned by an non-USA firm:
*A-B by InBev, a Belgian concern
*Miller by SAB (South Africa)
*Coors by MolsonCoors of Canada.

The largest domest US brewer is now Boston Brewing, makers of Samuel Adams.

[[User:Smitti79|Smitti79]] ([[User talk:Smitti79|talk]]) 18:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

== Lead images ==

[[Image:British dimpled glass pint jug with ale.jpg|thumb|right|upright| Pint of English [[Cask ale|real ale]], served in a dimpled jug]] 
We've had the two lead images in the article for a long time, and they were in the article when it passed as a Good Article. They are attractive images. Recently there have been two attempts to replace the Leffe image with a less attractive image of a pint of beer in a dimpled jug (shown right) because the Leffe image is "too commercial". Comments? <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 20:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

:I'm not that bothered about keeping the picture of the pint jug.  Howevever, I think the picture used to represent beer should not be something that is essentially advertising on behalf of InBev.  There must be thousands of available images of beer in attractive, non-branded glasses that we could use instead.[[User:Haldraper|Haldraper]] ([[User talk:Haldraper|talk]]) 20:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

SilkTork, just because beer is a commercial product doesn't mean we have to provide free advertising for InBev.  How about this as an alternative?[[User:Haldraper|Haldraper]] ([[User talk:Haldraper|talk]]) 21:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
[[Image:Real_Ale_2004-05-09_cropped.jpg|thumb|right|upright|]]


I think the Leffe image is very attractive. [[Special:Contributions/82.34.68.225|82.34.68.225]] ([[User talk:82.34.68.225|talk]]) 17:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

:Well that's your opinion.  What slightly irks me is that the magnificent history of beer is represented by a filtered and pasteurised product brewed by a overarching global corporation responsible for some of the most tasteless swill out there.[[User:Haldraper|Haldraper]] ([[User talk:Haldraper|talk]]) 07:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::Would it help you to know that the beer in the Leffe glasses is Leffe Triple (not filtered or pasteurised)? And would it help that the beer mug image is already in the article further down. The article also contains an image of beer engines with pump clips, an image of a German dark lager, an image of bottles of American beer, an image of casks of beer, an image of Belgian keg fonts, a kriek, and a rauchbier. There are a variety of beers, in a variety of servings, and if there is any quibble, it might be that already the emphasis is on European beer, and there isn't a single image of a pale lager, the most popular beer style in the world. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 19:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Yes.[[User:Haldraper|Haldraper]] ([[User talk:Haldraper|talk]]) 07:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:The sentence referring to the hymn to Ninkasi is doubled in the article. It would be nice were it rephrased -
== carbonation in primitive times? ==

AFAIK, gastight packaging of drinks is relatively modern, dating back to Napoleon's regime. so, would primitive beers have been noncarbonated? i see the part about drinking a thick, gruel-like beverage through a straw which suggests this is the case, but the question of carbonation isn't directly addressed. [[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] ([[User talk:Gzuckier|talk]]) 19:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

:Beer is a fermented product - carbonation is a by-product of fermentation. Beer has been stored in wooden casks for the bulk of the history of beer. Most casks are metal these days, though Sam Smith and Wadworth still use wooden casks. These wooden casks are quite capable of holding the natural carbonation of beer - though, until the recent development of forced carbonation, drinkers preferred the beer to be served flat - so in the UK, where the tradition of drinking unfiltered beer remains, the practise of releasing the carbonation from the cask before serving it, continues. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 16:12, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

The first evidence of the wooden barrel comes from the first century BC <ref>Nelson, Max, ''The Barbarian Beverage'', 2005. ISBN 978-0-415-31121 p 49</ref>. Beer history started over 3000 years before then.
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 23:45, 22 December 2011 (UTC)  

== Pale lager ==

This is a small problem, but in the introduction and in the lager section the article seems to imply that lagers are only pale. While pale lagers are undoubtedly the most popular and prevalent, there are a variety of darker lagers, from Festbeer to schwartzbier. It is perhaps worth changing the article to note that many lagers are in fact dark.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.251.100.65|98.251.100.65]] ([[User talk:98.251.100.65|talk]]) 16:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I feel there is a distinction made in the article, and also there are images of dark lagers. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 09:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

== Edit request from 75.128.22.229, 30 April 2010 ==

{{tl|editsemiprotected}}
<!-- Begin request -->

the word "civilisation" in the history portion of the article should be corrected to its correct spelling of civilization

<!-- End request -->
[[Special:Contributions/75.128.22.229|75.128.22.229]] ([[User talk:75.128.22.229|talk]]) 04:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
: [[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp -->[[User:Spitfire19|<span style="font-family:Script,Serif;">Spitfire</span><span style="font-family:Garamond,Serif;">'''''19'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Spitfire19|Talk]]) 05:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

:: Since this article uses British English, "civilisation" is correct. &mdash;[[User:Wrathchild|Wrathchild]] <sup><small>([[User talk:Wrathchild|talk]])</small></sup> 18:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

== It is doubtful that Beer is the world's oldest alcoholic beverage ==

This article begins with the statement that Beer is the world's oldest and most widely consumed alcoholic beverage.  It is likely that mead (Honey Wine) was created accidentally and consumed, and then purposefully well before beer.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.85.194.241|74.85.194.241]] ([[User talk:74.85.194.241|talk]]) 01:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Never heard from the ancient greeks drinking wine? --[[Special:Contributions/62.93.99.121|62.93.99.121]] ([[User talk:62.93.99.121|talk]]) 18:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

:In response to both questions: you're right that this is debatable, and the article should reflect that. However, while it's ''possible'' that the earliest fermented beverage was honey- or grape-based, the evidence does lean towards beer preceding both mead and wine. First, it's true that the earliest written references to beer date back more than 8000 years, and are among the earliest examples of written language anywhere, but that's pretty indirect evidence. Regarding grapes, the earliest solid evidence of wine-making dates to about 4500 BC, a millennium and a half after that of beer. For honey, the earliest actual chemical evidence from pottery in Europe is associated with the [[Beaker culture]], dating to 4,000 years ago, give or take a few centuries. Also, as a brewer I can tell you that honey isn't an ideal fermentable: it's a natural [[bacteriostatic]], and is mostly deficient in many of the nutrients necessary for yeast growth. A good [[gruel]], on the other hand, if made from a grain that has begun to germinate, can be easily colonized by wild yeasts and/or bacteria and begin to ferment. Interestingly, though there's chemical evidence of both rice-beer and a rice-honey beverage (which today would be considered a [[braggot]], a beer-mead hybrid) being brewed in China around 7000 BC. Honey is more fermentable when a nutrient source (like those found in rice or barley) is added, so this ''could'' suggest that once beer was invented/discovered, mead wasn't too far behind. That's pure speculation, of course. &ndash; [[User:ClockworkSoul|Clockwork]][[User_talk:ClockworkSoul|<b>Soul</b>]] 22:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

::I just noticed the change in the opening. I've put it back to oldest, as that is what the source said. I just quickly added two more. I'll find an accessible scholarly source later, and replace all three with that. I have a vague memory of once before having several cites for that statement - though it may have been for something else. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 17:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

:::Hi Silk. The evidence puts beer up as a major contender for the title of "world's oldest beverage", but it's not definitive, since finding ancient beer vessels doesn't preclude the possibility that there may have been mead before it, and a source that says otherwise is coming to a conclusion that's not supported by the available information. So really, while the evidence is leaning in the direction of beer being oldest, we can't be sure unless we find a tablet that says something like "hey guys, I invented this thing called mead, and it's almost as good as beer".  &ndash; [[User:ClockworkSoul|Clockwork]][[User_talk:ClockworkSoul|<b>Soul</b>]] 22:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC) (post-signing after forgetting earlier)

::::My searching has tended to be somewhat narrow - "beer oldest beverage" and such like, and my reading in the subject has also tended to be subject focused - I read books about beer, rather than books about mead or cider or wine, and come upon statements in these books that beer is the oldest. Having just done a search for "mead oldest beverage", I note that there are counter claims. So, unless we can find a super authoritative source which has examined all the claims, the opening statement does need adjusting. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 18:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

[http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking_origins.html I'm looking for something else, and I come upon this]. I agree it does need further looking into, though I do happen upon statements like that as part of my beer reading, so I have come to feel that beer is the oldest alcoholic beverage. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 18:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
: I'm really a beer guy, and am pretty much the same in reading habits, but when replying to the OP I found a papers supporting both. Whichever beverage came first, though, it probably beat the other by a relatively short amount of time (but both almost certainly pre-date wine and other fermented beverages). The fact is that we can't say with any real certainty that beer was pre-dated mead, even if the practical issues I listed above make it more likely than not. I propose we re-add the "probably". &ndash; [[User:ClockworkSoul|Clockwork]][[User_talk:ClockworkSoul|<b>Soul</b>]] 22:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you take out all references to "oldest alcoholic drink". There is no good evidence about what is the world's oldest alcoholic drink, and since both honey (when watered down, which happens naturally) and fruit will ferment naturally, while beer will NEVER occur naturally, it seems very unlikely humanity discovered beer before mead/wine. It certaoinly isn't possible to say beer is "probably" the oldest alcoholic drink. Those references offer no evidence other than claims. [[User:Zythophile|Zythophile]] ([[User talk:Zythophile|talk]]) 22:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC) (comment edited [[User:Zythophile|Zythophile]] ([[User talk:Zythophile|talk]]) 22:24, 17 February 2011 (UTC))

Agreed. It is extremely '''unlikely''' that beer is older than wine. You put a bunch of fruit in a basket. The stuff on the bottom gets crushed. Voila, wine. You can get 5% alcohol from fruit hanging on a tree. Almost certainly happened in the Old Stone age or before. Our fuzzy forebears probably knew how to party down. You put a bunch of seeds in a bowl. Nothing. You add water and make porridge. Come back the next day, moldy porridge. Beer making requires a saccharification step before fermentation. Unlike fruit, grain does not offer a habitat for yeast. To make beer, you need to already know that anything sweet has a good shot of being fermentable into an alcoholic beverage. So you find out that if you chew up the seeds, they get sweet. Of if you let the seeds sprout and add warm water, they get sweet. So you try adding the sweet liquid to your fruit fermentation calabash. <ref>McGovern, Patrick, Uncorking the Past, 2009. {{ISBN|978-0-520-25379-7}}</ref>. One can mention that some people think that beer is the oldest, but the be fair, the bulk of the evidence points to wine.
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 03:59, 23 December 2011 (UTC)


How about changing "probably" to "possibly"?

One problem I have with the way it's stated is that it isn't even supported by all the sources cited (one calls it "one of the oldest intoxicating beverages" and another doesn't take a firm position at all); also, the sources that take the most definitive position are the least scholarly.

Inconsistency between Wikipedia articles is a common (and unfortunate) weakness of an online encyclopedia with countless contributing editors. Having said that, please note that the article on [[Mead]] cites sources which give credence to THAT beverage's claim to being the oldest. Of course, circumstantial evidence about ancient mead production isn't enough to remove mention that beer is, by its own right, ancient, and may possible be the oldest.

So, given the consensus (although not unanimous) opinion that the claim is at least questionable, shall I (or one of you brave souls) make the change? I hope that the matter has been talked out enough to preclude an edit war. [[User:DoctorEric|DoctorEric]] ([[User talk:DoctorEric|talk]]) 04:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
<br />
<br />
Done.
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 01:53, 28 December 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />


== Note 83 ==

Can't find anything about 'freeze-distilling' in the link.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/79.138.237.176|79.138.237.176]] ([[User talk:79.138.237.176|talk]]) 15:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Edit request from Nrhine1, 24 May 2010 ==

{{tlf|editsemiprotected}}
<!-- Begin request -->
In the History section,
'''"The Ebla tablets, discovered in 1974 in Ebla, Syria and date back to 2,500 BC, reveal that the city produced a range of beers, including one that appears to be named "Ebla" after city."'''

should have a "the" between "after" and "city"

<!-- End request -->
[[User:Nrhine1|Nrhine1]] ([[User talk:Nrhine1|talk]]) 22:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
:{{done-t}} '''<span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:85%;">—[[User:Fetchcomms|<span style="color:black">fetch</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Fetchcomms|<span style="color:black">·</span>]][[User talk:Fetchcomms|<span style="color:black">comms</span>]]</span>''' 23:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

== Brewdog has just released a 55% alcohol beer. ==

Also, some discussion should be devoted to the difference between percentage by volume and by weight, and the conversion of these two numbers.  In several states, including Oklahoma and Utah, it's illegal to sell chilled beer that is over 3.2% ABV.  To get beer of higher alcohol content, one must go to a "liquor store" or "package store", which, in the case of Utah, are all owned by the state.  At these establishments, the beer, wine, and spirits are sold at room temperature.
Also, federal law states that no alcoholic beverage over 4% ABW (alcohol by weight) may be labeled as Beer, thus the rise of the term "Malt Liquor" to denote high alcohol American-style beers.  This is also why many microbrewed beers sold by the bottle are labeled with their style, such as Pale Ale, Stout, Porter, etc., rather than with the word "beer".  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.185.216.18|70.185.216.18]] ([[User talk:70.185.216.18|talk]]) 16:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:That is an interesting point about the selling of beer in the USA. Should we have a section about beer in different parts of the world, so we can cover location-specifics such as this? Similar to how beers above 10% are usually marketed as barley wines over here.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.6.35.235|80.6.35.235]] ([[User talk:80.6.35.235|talk]]) 22:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::[[:Category:Alcohol measurement]] holds articles that talk about alcohol measurement. There's an article about [[Alcohol by volume]], though not one about ABW. I think there is a need for an overall article about alcohol measurement. This article wouldn't really be the appropriate place to start that, as this is about beer, rather than alcohol measurement. 
:::And articles about alcohol laws America are here: [[:Category:Alcohol in the United States]] - with the main one - [[Alcohol law in the United States]]. <span style="border: 1px  #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<span style="font-family:Script MT; color:#1111AA; font-size:small;">SilkTork</span>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 17:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

== Packaging Information ==

There is significant information missing on how beer is packaged. The article says, "it is packaged either into casks for cask ale or kegs, aluminium cans, or bottles for other sorts of beer." It does NOT say what a six pack or a case is. 

I was reading this article trying to determine whether cases of beer always have 12 or 24 cans. If so, I wanted to know what to call a package with 30 cans.
[[User:Raeyin|Raeyin]] ([[User talk:Raeyin|talk]]) 02:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I remember buying cases of 20 biers while stationed in Germany. 20 lovely half-liter tasty brews....ah, memories!  --[[User:JRStutler|averagejoe]] ([[User talk:JRStutler|talk]]) 01:57, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

== Beer is not made from fermented starches ==

The article states that beer is made from fermented starches but the "starches" are first converted into simpler carbohydrates (mainly maltose) by enzymes in the mash before they can be fermented.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.219.180.235|72.219.180.235]] ([[User talk:72.219.180.235|talk]]) 00:29, 25 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== Number three ==

Which is actually number three most drank beverage in the world, [[coffee]] or beer? Both articles state they are the third most consumed.[[Special:Contributions/68.105.34.219|68.105.34.219]] ([[User talk:68.105.34.219|talk]]) 21:30, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

== Wikipedia beer can ==

What does that picture add to the value of the article? I think nothing. Also, it's quite misleading, as I had thought someone had actually made such cans, rather than computer-generating the picture. I'd propose removing it. --[[User:A. di M.|A. di M.]] ([[User talk:A. di M.|talk]]) 22:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

: I agree, it doesn't add anything to the article. Also, as its based on the Wikipedia logo, its probably not allowed due to the [[Wikimedia:Trademark Policy]] and [[Wikimedia:Wikimedia visual identity guidelines]]. I'm surprised that image is actually on Commons in the first place, and hasn't been deleted. --[[User:Vclaw|Vclaw]] ([[User talk:Vclaw|talk]]) 21:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

== Beer produced by freeze distillation ==

I don't think a beer can be freeze distilled. As described in the distilled beverage article, the product of freeze distillation would be a liquor or a spirit. Can a beer also be a distilled beverage?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.64.145.22|68.64.145.22]] ([[User talk:68.64.145.22|talk]]) 21:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:If you distill beer, you get [[malt whisky]]; distill wine and you get brandy. Freeze distillation wouldn't work with beer because the water content is so high; it would simply freeze.<br/><span style="text-shadow:#294 0.1em 0.1em 0.3em; class=texhtml">[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text; font-size:small;"><b style="color:#00C">⋙–Ber</b><b style="color:#66f">ean–Hun</b><b style="color:#00C">ter—►</b></span>]] ([[User talk:Berean Hunter|<b style="color:#00C">(⊕)</b>]])</span> 21:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Eisbock is a style of bock beer that is commonly freeze distilled and commonly agreed upon as a style of beer. You can check http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style05.php#1d --[[Special:Contributions/38.97.128.9|38.97.128.9]] ([[User talk:38.97.128.9|talk]]) 17:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

*The IP is ''mostly'' right but this requires some clarification.  Of course, you can't make beer from scratch by distillation.  However, you can effectively fortify both beer and wine by freeze distillation.  Although normally, [[fortified wine]] is made by adding brandy, freeze distillation is also used with some varieties and as the IP points out is standard with some beers, particularly [[Eisbock]].  (It is ''not'' the process used for [[ice wine]], which involves freezing to increase sugars before vintning).--[[User:Doug|Doug.]]<sup>([[User talk:Doug|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/Doug|contribs]])</sup> 20:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

== Lager ==

"Lager is the English name for cool fermenting beers of Central European origin"- except it is the German name which is also used in English. [[Special:Contributions/124.169.153.64|124.169.153.64]] ([[User talk:124.169.153.64|talk]]) 12:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

=== French beer tradition ===
This article shockingly omits France in its list of beer-producing countries. It happens to be the 5th largest national production in Europe with 16.8 million hectoliters (2004). My source for this figure is the French wikipedia page "bière". Eastern and northern France have very strong traditions of local beers as well as of larger breweries.
[[User:Pensées de Pascal|Pensées de Pascal]] ([[User talk:Pensées de Pascal|talk]]) 21:21, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

== Edit request from Benl2391, 28 May 2011 ==

{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
<!-- Begin request -->

In the year 2011 the popular phrase 'Have a Nice Beer!' emerged in the leeds area of the UK
<!-- End request -->
[[User:Benl2391|Benl2391]] ([[User talk:Benl2391|talk]]) 02:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
*No, that's not going into the article. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 02:34, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

== Anxiety and Insomnia ==

I've been living with Anxiety, and insomnia now for a while. My therapist keeps trying to get me to take drugs like hydroxyzine, which according to Wikipedia could potentially give me Tardive Dyskinesia, and other drugs which can give me psychosis and other illnesses. So I research Alcohol, and it looks like, according to Wikipedia, that if I were to drink one beer a night just to sleep, and maybe a little in the morning to take the edge off, I would be fighting cancer, diabetes, heart problems and improving my mental capacities. Why don't therapists just prescribe a person to drink a beer for their anxiety and insomnia instead of giving them other deadly poisons? This article is amazing, I am going to start drinking. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/50.47.138.64|50.47.138.64]] ([[User talk:50.47.138.64|talk]]) 10:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

== Husk as a source of amylase ==

The article states that barley is frequently chosen as the starch source for beer because of it's husk.  This is true, but only because the husk acts as a filter during lautering.  I don't believe the husk is a source of amylase.  In fact, the husk is composed of dead plant tissue -- it cannot synthesize any enzymes.  The original author of this section seemed fairly sure of the dual purpose of the husk, but it is only to aid filtration during lautering.  In fact, wheat has the same husk, but humans selected it to thresh free long ago.  We were never able (or never wanted) the same adaptation in barley, so it ends up in beer, while wheat goes in bread.  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Drummstikk|Drummstikk]] ([[User talk:Drummstikk|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Drummstikk|contribs]]) 05:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

hi beer is bad for you  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tigerlee12lee|Tigerlee12lee]] ([[User talk:Tigerlee12lee|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tigerlee12lee|contribs]]) 09:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Edit request from MPCurley, 16 September 2011 ==

{{tn|edit semi-protected|answered=no}}
<!-- Begin request -->
In the "Production" section, it is stated that Anheuser-Busch and InBev merged to become Anheuser-Busch InBev.  In reality, InBev acquired Anheuser-Busch outright.  The sentence should be changed to read:
"InBev was the second-largest beer-producing company in the world,[68] and Anheuser-Busch held the third spot, but after the aquisition of Anheuser-Busch by InBev, the new Anheuser-Busch InBev company is the largest brewer in the world."
Refer to the following press release: http://www.ab-inbev.com/documents/press_release.pdf

<!-- End request -->
[[User:MPCurley|MPCurley]] ([[User talk:MPCurley|talk]]) 19:49, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

:Done <small><span style="border:1px solid;background:#00008B">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background:#00008B;color:white">&nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B;background-color:yellow;">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 01:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
{{done}}

== Strong Beers ==

The strongest beer in the world is Schorschrbräu Schorschbock 57% finis coronat opus with 57.7 % -> http://lautering.net/blog/2011/10/07/schorschbraeu-wins-back-title-strongest-beer-the-world
Brewdog can't claim that they have strongest beer done by fermentation as no beer yeast is capable of fermenting a single batch that high.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/85.182.17.5|85.182.17.5]] ([[User talk:85.182.17.5|talk]]) 21:14, 7 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:You seem to be confusing two things - the strongest beer, and the strongest fermented beer. Furthermore, there's a difference between claiming something and having a claim proven. Brewdog [[http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article/ghost-deer|do claim to have brewed the strongest fermented beer in the world]], though I can't find anything other than their own assertion to back that up (and [[http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/General-News/BrewDog-launches-world-s-strongest-fermented-beer-served-from-stag-s-head|other coverage of their press release]]). As for the strongest beer, that rather seems disputed, since [[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/7916704/Worlds-strongest-pint-Dutch-brewer-creates-80-proof-beer.html| this]] suggests a 60% ABV where your link is 57.7% (of course both are stronger than BD's ''end of the world''). Personally I don't really see how any of these freeze-distilled products can still be considered 'beer', but that's another debate. -- [[User:Gsyhiap|gsyhiap]] ([[User_talk:Gsyhiap|talk]]) 14:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

== What about Pilsner style? ==

Does Pilsner style merit its own section, or should it just be considered a pale Lager?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/205.77.78.1|205.77.78.1]] ([[User talk:205.77.78.1|talk]]) 19:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Legal Definition? ==

Is there a legal definition of what a beer is?  That is to say, how low could the alcohol content go and still be called a beer? And should it be mentioned? [[User:Kiltpin|Kiltpin]] ([[User talk:Kiltpin|talk]]) 11:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
:UK Law contains a definition used for duty purposes:{{quote|"Beer" includes ale, porter, stout and any other description of beer, and any liquor which is made or sold as a description of beer or as a substitute for beer and which is of a strength exceeding 0.5 per cent.|Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979|http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/4}} Of course this sounds rather circular (beer includes ... any other description of beer?!?), but nonetheless that's what's on the statute books. I couldn't comment about other countries. -- [[User:Gsyhiap|gsyhiap]] ([[User_talk:Gsyhiap|talk]]) 15:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

== so how healthy is alcohol? ==

the article starts the health section with 'benefits of alcohol'.  but the supporting studies are only statistical, they look VERY weak.  someone seriously needs to explain how drinking a toxic substance works to make you 'healthy'.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.85.14.106|75.85.14.106]] ([[User talk:75.85.14.106|talk]]) 11:48, 26 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Beer Definition ==

It would be proper to start the article with a definition of beer. Legal definitions vary, so it makes sense to go with a technical/practical definition. A surprising number of books on beer and brewing give no definition at all. Many give definitions that boil down to what I like is beer and what I don't like is not true beer. Others are strictly Eurocentric.

There are three major systems for producing an alcoholic beverage.
1. Ferment (with yeast) an source of sugar, like fruit, honey, or sap. Products of this process include wine as such, cider, mead, perry, palm wine, tiswin (from cactus), and the like. These should be defined a variations of wine.
2. Convert starch to sugar, then ferment the sugar. This includes European-style beer as well as sake, chicha, products made from manioc etc. These are variations of beer.
3. Products whose essential character is determined by a distillation process of one of the previous processes. This would include whiskey, vodka, rum, etc. We could define these as hard liquor, but there may be a better term.
	
There are, of course some grey areas. We need to allow some fortification of wine or beer and still have it remain wine or beer. Nobody wants to classify eisbier or sherry as hard liquor (except maybe taxing authorities).
	
This leads to my proposed definition of beer, which does follow the cited source and many others.
	
'''Beer''' can be broadly defined as a fermented beverage made from a source of starch without distillation. Beverages such as ''sake'', ''huangjiu'', and ''cheongiu'' that are made from [[rice]], ''chicha'', made from [[maize]] (USA: corn), and ''cauim'' and ''masato'' that are made from manioc ([[cassava]]) are properly considered forms of beer <ref>Barth, Roger. ''The Chemistry of Beer'', 3/e. 2011: {{ISBN|978-0-9847950-3-1}}</ref>. 

In a previous post, I mistakenly wrote "without fermentation" rather than "without distillation"

If there is no cogent objection, I'd like to start the article with this definition of beer. 
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 05:44, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Made indicated change. Also added a couple of book cites
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 23:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

== Non-European Beer ==

The beer styles listed are essentially European/British. Perhaps coverage should be expanded to Oriental, African, Central and South American, and American Indian forms of beer. Maybe there should be less detail on the Euro beers in the main article to make room for the much more diverse styles of the rest of the world. The point is  that the difference between mild ale and brown ale is trivial compared to the difference between European beer and, say, African Chibuku. There must be some editors with relevant expertise. 
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 04:25, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
<br />
<br />
== Some Factual Issues ==

History: The fermented beverage at made in China in 7000 BC contained fruit and rice. It may have been more of a wine than a beer. In any case, it is clearly incorrect to say that that it was not prepared by an amylolytic process, but by malting or mastication. Both of these '''are''' amylolytic processes, that is, they convert starch to sugar.<br />
Made indicated correction. The cited article used the term amylolytic fermentation to refer to the use of koji mold. 
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 22:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC) <br/> <br/>
"As almost any substance containing carbohydrates, mainly sugars or starch, can naturally undergo fermentation..." This is clearly incorrect. There is plenty of carbohydrate that is not starch or sugar, like cellulose. Only a few simple sugars can undergo alcoholic fermentation. Starches have to be broken down into sugars before they will ferment. Cellulose can be broken into fermentable sugar, but it is difficult and never undertaken to produce an alcoholic beverage.<br />
Made indicated correction.[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 22:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)<br/><br/>
Hops. The first historical mention of the use of hops in beer was in the Statutes of Adalhard of Corbie, also known as Adalhard the Elder. He was abbot of the Monastery of St Peter and St Stephen at Corbie in northern France: Nelson, The Barbarian's Beverage pp 107-109. Not Corvey in Westphalia (Adalhard is credited with founding that monastery).<br />
Made indicated clarification. [[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 22:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC) <br/> <br/>
Ingredients: Agave is not a starch source for beer, it gives a sweet sap from which wine is made.
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 02:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Removed mention of agave. Also removed reference to Jackson's article http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000120.html. This article is good stuff, but it makes no mention of starch. [[Pulque]], which is the beverage made from agave sap is more akin to wine than beer. The article on it is pretty detailed.
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 23:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
<br />
<br />
== Factual Issues First Paragraph ==

"It is produced by the brewing and fermentation of sugars, mainly derived from malted cereal grains, most commonly malted barley and malted wheat. Sugars derived from maize (corn) and rice are widely used adjuncts because of their lower cost."
Brewing sugars? It would be better to say: "It is produced by the saccharification of starch and fermentation of the resulting sugar. The starch and saccharification enzymes are often derived from malted cereal grains, most commonly malted barley and malted wheat. Unmalted maize (US: corn) and rice are widely used adjuncts to lighten the flavor and because of their lower cost.  The preparation of beer is called brewing."<br />
Let me know what you think.[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 02:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Done
[[User:Dr Thermo|Dr Thermo]] ([[User talk:Dr Thermo|talk]]) 22:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
<br />

No, the first version was correct and the second version incorrect. Beer is frequently made with sugars included in the wort that are not completely derived from the saccharinification of starch, eg candi sugar, and has been for more than 150 years, at least; there are whole styles of beer that rely on brewing sugars not completely derived from grains, eg many Belgian beers and English barley wines; and there are many types of brewing sugars on sale to commercial brewers that are not derived from grain. Please revert. [[User:Zythophile|Zythophile]] ([[User talk:Zythophile|talk]]) 06:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

:What other sugars in barley wines? The sugars present in lambics from fruits are consequential but not vital to the style. [[Gueuze]] has no extra sugars necessary although some commercial brewers add it.<br/><span style="text-shadow:#294 0.1em 0.1em 0.3em; class=texhtml">[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text; font-size:x-small;"><b style="color:#00C">⋙–Ber</b><b style="color:#66f">ean–Hun</b><b style="color:#00C">ter—►</b></span>]]</span> 17:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

::No. 1 invert sugar is not unusual in Barley Wine. If it's dark in colour, then possibly No. 3 invert.[[User:Patto1ro|Patto1ro]] ([[User talk:Patto1ro|talk]]) 14:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
== Edit request on 18 March 2012 ==

{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
<!-- Begin request -->
Please modify the first line after the second paragraph - currently reads  "..though may range from less than 1% abv, to over 20% abv in rare cases." - Should read "..though may range from less than 1% abv, to over 40% abv in rare cases."

Sources for this modification: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/16/worlds-strongest-beer-sco_n_463975.html or http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/7250444/Strongest-beer-in-the-world-Brewdog-produces-41pc-ale.html

<!-- End request -->
[[User:Simpleeddie|Simpleeddie]] ([[User talk:Simpleeddie|talk]]) 11:46, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

:Is that necessary? 41% is "over 20%", and one brew is even rarer than "rare cases". --[[User:Ian Dalziel|Ian Dalziel]] ([[User talk:Ian Dalziel|talk]]) 12:19, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

::Agreed. "above 20% abv" is better. -- [[User:Alan Liefting|Alan Liefting]] ([[User_talk:Alan_Liefting|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Alan_Liefting|contribs]]) 01:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

== Alternatives to hops ==

Perhaps that an article called either [[Alternatives to hops for beermaking]] or simply [[Herbal beer]] can be made. Appearantly the herbs that are most commonly used are: alfalfa pellets, wormwood, heather, ti leaves, oak leaves, nettles, spruce tips, parsley, sage, rosemary,thyme, alecost, betony, dandelion, horehound, milk thistle, nettle, sage and yarrow<ref>[http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/hop-alternative-58473/ Hop alternatives 1]</ref><ref> [[Saffron]] was used in the past in the middle east, a similar beer is being brewed by Dogfish Head (Midas Touch)

Books: 
* Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers by Stephen Harrod Buhner
* Alewife’s Garden by Jillian VanNostrand and Christine V. Sarles<ref>[http://www.brainardbrewing.com/blog/?p=60 Herbal beer books]</ref>  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.182.186.148|91.182.186.148]] ([[User talk:91.182.186.148|talk]]) 08:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Oldest food quality regulation? ==

The article's statement that "the Reinheitsgebot (purity law), perhaps the oldest food-quality regulation still in use in the 21st century", seems to ignore the fact that much older religious laws are still practiced (e.g. Kosher or [[Kashrut]]), that are specific to food and in particular to quality, for example, the treifot examination of the slaughtered carcass which includes "70 different categories of injuries, diseases, and abnormalities whose presence renders the animal non-kosher".  If one chooses to differentiate between secular and religious law, perhaps the statement should be explicit about that.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.204.202.184|98.204.202.184]] ([[User talk:98.204.202.184|talk]]) 18:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Proposed revisions to discussion of abv ==

I'm proposing that the wording, 
"from less than 1% abv, to over 20% abv in rare cases"
 be revised to read, 
"from less than 1% abv, to over 25% abv in rare cases". 
(Case in point: Sam Adams Utopia series at about 27% abv)

Also propose adding the sentence, 
"Beers approaching an ABV of 60% (120° proof) have been produced by freezing brewed beer and removing water in the form of ice, a process referred to as "ice distilling". "  
Case in point: Schorschbrau Schorschbock Finis Coronat Opus at 57%.

[[User:Gregveal|Gregveal]] ([[User talk:Gregveal|talk]]) 11:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
== Third most popular ==

Is beer really the third most popular beverage? It's ahead of coffee - and wine? A lot of women don't like beer, it's a fairly male-dominated drink, so that's half the population wiped out already. Or perhaps it's because men drink so much of it that it outweighs the others? I would have considered cola and lemonade as well, but perhaps they're more children-orientated.--[[User:Tuzapicabit|Tuzapicabit]] ([[User talk:Tuzapicabit|talk]]) 01:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

:I don't think you can say that scratches half of the population on your assumption that females don't like beer, that's an absurd statement. There might not be as many female fans of beer as there are male, but there's still plenty of them. --[[User:Sharangir|Sharangir]] ([[User talk:Sharangir|talk]]) 19:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

== No Belgium under export of beer? ==

Just looked at the treemap for biggest exporters of beer. I was wondering why Belgium is not even mentioned on the picture. I thought they have some quite popular beers that are found in bars throughout the world. There's no clarification for it either.--[[User:Sharangir|Sharangir]] ([[User talk:Sharangir|talk]]) 19:54, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
== Strongest beer ==

Schorschbrau claims, as of October 2011, to have the record again, at 57.5%.  See reference 119. [[Special:Contributions/99.141.139.196|99.141.139.196]] ([[User talk:99.141.139.196|talk]]) 03:48, 11 June 2012 (UTC) Russ Perry Jr, 2012-06-10, 10:48 PM CST

== mistake ==

Import and export images are mixed up!  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.196.236.47|88.196.236.47]] ([[User talk:88.196.236.47|talk]]) 19:21, 21 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I actually think the description boxes on the files are mixed up, and the titles are correct. There's no way the Netherlands, Germany & Mexico are the biggest importers...those countries export to the world.--[[User:Chimino|Chimino]] ([[User talk:Chimino|talk]]) 01:00, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
== ABV in lead ==

Regarding the sentence in the lead covering ABV:

''The strength of beer is usually around 4% to 6% alcohol by volume (abv) although it may sometimes vary between 0.5% (de-alcoholized) and 15% (malt liquors).''

This implies only malt liquors reach 15%ABV, when [[barleywine]]s and [[Russian imperial stout]]s, among others are also being brewed with high alcohol content these days. Also, is the 15% figure used as more to describe the high end of "everyday" beers? Because in recent years, many breweries have been eclipsing that figure by a significant margin.--[[User:Chimino|Chimino]] ([[User talk:Chimino|talk]]) 04:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

== Health Effects (Mycotoxins) ==

There is plenty of research available on the very harmful [[mycotoxin]]s in beer,<br />

 yet not a single mention of it on the page and seems like only good health effects which could lead to misleading conclusions<br />
 like people thinking drinking beer is healthier than drinking vodka for example,<br />

 or people including daily beer drinking into their diet. <br />


Sources: <br />

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/28/11/2296.full.pdf<br />

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8757446<br />

http://81.0.228.99/UserFiles/Kvasnickova/vscht_pivo-mykotoxiny.pdf<br />

http://www.bam.de/en/aktuell/presse/pressemitteilungen/pm_2013/pm02_2013.htm<br />  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:AdrienD|AdrienD]] ([[User talk:AdrienD|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AdrienD|contribs]]) 12:06, 10 March 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Edit request on 9 October 2012 ==

{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
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Add: The world's strongest beer is the Brewmeister Armageddon and was produced in 2012 by a Brewmeister brewery in Scotland.
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[[User:Lewisshand|Lewisshand]] ([[User talk:Lewisshand|talk]]) 20:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
:Do you have a third-party reference, and the indicated [[Alcohol by volume|abv]] percentage? --- [[User:Barek|Barek]] <small>([[User talk:Barek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Barek|contribs]])</small> - 21:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

== Premium ==

The article ascribes market shares to "premium beer" but does not define the term. [[User:Jim.henderson|Jim.henderson]] ([[User talk:Jim.henderson|talk]]) 14:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
== Edit request on 26 November 2012 ==

{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
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Research has recently come out regarding how glass shape affects rate of consumption. I think it would be a brilliant idea to include this on the Beer page under 8 Beer and Society as 8.2 Glass Shape and Consumption Speed 
Here is the link and my attempt at a ref: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043007

<ref name="plosone.org">Attwood, Angela S.; Scott-Samuel, Nicholas E.; Stothart, George; Munafò, Marcus R. (2012). Glass Shape Influences Consumption Rate for Alcoholic Beverages. Retrieved November 23, 2012,  http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043007</ref>

Here is the addition:

The shape of a beer glass can have a significant effect on how quickly one drinks. Total drinking time can be reduced by almost 60% when drinking from a straight glass compared to a curved glass when the glass is full. The increased consumption speed for curved glasses may be attributed to inaccurate perceptual judgments about the true half-way point and corresponding one’s drinking rate to such as well as conditioning to associate curved glasses with alcohol consumption. Neither half-full glasses nor straight or curved glasses with soft drinks gave the same effect.

Thank you!
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[[User:Alsala|Alsala]] ([[User talk:Alsala|talk]]) 05:42, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

:I understand where you're going with this, and yes, it's a very interesting development, but I don't think it belongs in an encylopedia article. Wikipedia isn't fun facts like the speed of beer drinking. Thanks so much for the fact though. Don't take it personally :) [[User:gwickwire|<span style="color:#3D0376">gwickwire</span>]]<span style="position:absolute"><sup>[[user talk:gwickwire|talk]]</sup></span><sub>[[special:contributions/gwickwire|edits]]</sub> 19:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

== Nutritional information section ==

Suggest a change from a specific reference of container type.

From:

'''Nutritional information'''

1 can of beer (356ml) contains:

To something like:

'''Nutritional information'''

12 ounces of beer (356ml) contains:

--[[User:ThiggyD|ThiggyD]] ([[User talk:ThiggyD|talk]]) 06:09, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

== Glycemic index ==

OK, so if all these fad health books are listing an inaccurate Glycemic index rating of 110, what is the correct figure? [[User:Heroeswithmetaphors|<span style="font-family:Arial; color:#33ccff; text-shadow:#ccffff 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">(Heroeswithmetaphors)</span>]] [[User talk:Heroeswithmetaphors|<span style="font-family:Arial; color:#ff66ff; font-size:8px">talk</span>]] 20:51, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

== Edit request on 11 June 2013 ==

{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
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The following sentence in the ingredients chapter seems wrong in the 2nd part - the first part correctly states that a location has a certain kind of water which is suited for a certain kind of beer, the 2nd half states that a certain kind of beer has a certain kind of water suited for certain kind of beer -- huh?
"For example, Dublin has hard water well-suited to making stout, such as Guinness; while Pilsner has soft water well-suited to making pale lager, such as Pilsner Urquell."

I think this should read:
"For example, Dublin has hard water well-suited to making stout, such as Guinness; while Pilsen (Czech Republic) has soft water well-suited to making pale lager, such as Pilsner Urquell."
<!-- End request -->
:{{done}} &mdash; [[User:Goethean|goethean]] 22:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

::This edit was subsequently [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beer&diff=559484485&oldid=559456425 reverted]. &mdash; [[User:Goethean|goethean]] 01:59, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

:::{{done}} → [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beer&diff=559485508&oldid=559484485]. --[[User:IIIraute|IIIraute]] ([[User talk:IIIraute|talk]]) 05:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

== Production information - suggested addition ==

[http://www.kirinholdings.co.jp/english/news/2012/0808_01.html#table2 This] looks like a good source of production information; perhaps an interested editor could add some of the summary figures, and the source, to the article, in the "Production and trade" section?  Thanks.  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 19:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

== Edit request on 3 September 2013 ==

{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
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[[Special:Contributions/49.204.101.12|49.204.101.12]] ([[User talk:49.204.101.12|talk]]) 10:22, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
i am
:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please be more specific about what needs to be changed.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Jackmcbarn|Jackmcbarn]] ([[User talk:Jackmcbarn|talk]]) 01:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

== Nutrition Info ==

The numbers are not adding up in this section as the alcohol is not accounted for:  10 g carbs = 40 cals, 1 g protein =4 cals,  ''x'' g alcohol @ 7 cal/g  so a quick calculation gives us 82 cals of alcohol or 11.7 g of alcohol.  When this is taken into account the proportions of calories needs to change also.  Roughly 31.7 % from carbs, 3.2% from protein and 65.1% from alcohol.  This is of course the Guinness #'s only but the same is true for the american beer.[[User:Gnomemother|Gnomemother]] ([[User talk:Gnomemother|talk]]) 23:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

That's interesting, but we are stuck with the numbers published using third party references we can source. If the published numbers for calories and components do not add up then this is something for the FDA to address, not Wikipedia. However, I am a bit confused as to the purpose of the nutritional information section on this page. The text says "beers vary greatly in their nutritional values" but then two similar relatively low calorie beers are listed. Surely the two example beers should include two beers that demonstrate how widely nutritional content can vary? At least one of the examples should be a high alcohol high calorie beer, perhaps a Belgian Trappist ale? This could replace the current usage of Guinness draught. Also, we should consider removing the image of Guinness draught, which alongside the accompanying text (which says how few calories 12oz of Guinness draught has) reads like a promotional advertisement. Finally, Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia, we should consider listing how many milliliters there is in 12oz so international readers can make easy calculations themselves.[[User:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger|Wiki-proofer-and-tagger]] ([[User talk:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger|talk]]) 16:03, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I reviewed the calorie range for popular beers:
http://www.fitsugar.com/Calories-Popular-Beers-1504697
The lowest calorie beer was Budweiser 55, which is 55 calories for 12 oz, and the highest calorie beer was Sierra Nevada Bigfoot, which was over 300 calories for 12 oz! These two example beers much better highlight the "range in nutritional content" of beer, which is the stated purpose of this section.[[User:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger|Wiki-proofer-and-tagger]] ([[User talk:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger|talk]]) 16:20, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Have now made a number of improvements to this section, including adding very high and low calrie beers.  Deleting unecessary info, such as fat content (which is always zero) and put all relevant info onto one table with calorie column listed on the right to highlight the large differences between the different beers. Also added ml alongside oz.[[User:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger|Wiki-proofer-and-tagger]] ([[User talk:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger|talk]]) 17:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Somebody somewhen (I haven't time to analyse who/when) seems to have removed the units from the table at the head of the section so we are told that (eg) Guinness has 126 calories (aside - I assume this is actually Kcal?) but not how much Guinness it is that contains these calories. From the discussion above it looks like the information was there once, but right now the table is meaningless. [[User:Newburyjohn|Newburyjohn]] ([[User talk:Newburyjohn|talk]]) 12:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Is there a reason that Nutritional information for Stouts and Ales is in the nutritional section for beers, if my knowledge serves me, they are not beers, though I may be wrong [[User:Cradam|Cradam]] ([[User talk:Cradam|talk]]) 23:37 29 May 2014 (UTC)

== Edit request on 26 November 2013 ==
{{edit semi-protected|<!-- Page to be edited -->|answered=yes}}
<!-- Begin request -->
<small>(request contained complete copy of article -- removed)</small>
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[[User:BillyTanjung|BillyTanjung]] ([[User talk:BillyTanjung|talk]]) 14:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please make your request in a "change X to Y" format.<!-- Template:ESp --> Please do ''not'' make a complete copy of the article here and then edit it. Just state what you want added/changed. Thanks. --[[User:Stfg|Stfg]] ([[User talk:Stfg|talk]]) 16:35, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== Hildegard von Bingen ==

This article dates to 1067 Hildegard von Bingen's mention concerning the use of hops in beer production. This is well before her date of birth. I know that Hildegard wa known for her visions, but do not think that they could go back in time. Reference quoted at that opportunity (Max Nelson) dates that event to the beginning of XII century.

[[Special:Contributions/95.49.240.108|95.49.240.108]] ([[User talk:95.49.240.108|talk]]) 18:27, 1 February 2014 (UTC)Mark G.

== Add Section: Beer Descriptions and rating / reviews ? ==

How about adding a section of rating and reviewing beers. The various quality descriptive terms, and quality point scales? Maybe reference to some of the major judging organizations or venues [[User:HalFonts|HalFonts]] ([[User talk:HalFonts|talk]]) 00:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

== Wikipedia Beer Page. ==

Hello, whoever reads this stuff.  I was just scrolling through the main article on beer and noticed that the word civilization is spelled "civilisation." So uh, now you know.  <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:McFisticuffs117|McFisticuffs117]] ([[User talk:McFisticuffs117|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/McFisticuffs117|contribs]]) 21:54, 2 August 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Same reason that the words "color" and "flavor" are misspelled. [[Special:Contributions/69.137.96.29|69.137.96.29]] ([[User talk:69.137.96.29|talk]]) 12:14, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

== Nutritional information ==

why do we get the info in some weird standard called "oz"? We are not in the USA or GB so it should be something a bit more scientific. It's laughable, if "oz" is ok on the international wikipedia - why not use something even more archaic for liquids? Here's my suggestion from the bible:
1 Hin = 12 Logs
1 Bath = 6 Hin  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.181.60.81|83.181.60.81]] ([[User talk:83.181.60.81|talk]]) 07:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:See [[Fluid ounce]]. [[User:Miyagawa|Miyagawa]] ([[User talk:Miyagawa|talk]]) 21:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I put in the ml value too.[[User:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger|Wiki-proofer-and-tagger]] ([[User talk:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger|talk]]) 18:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Miyagawa, it should also be noted that Britain only uses the ounce as an archaic unit (mainly used in pre-3rd millenium recipe books), and all official nutritional information in Britain and the rest of the EU is in metric units [[User:Cradam|Cradam]] ([[User talk:Cradam|talk]]) 23:34, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

It is hard to believe that in 2014, I get caloric info in "servings" of 355 ml ... The whole world uses 100g standard. Moreover, in Europe, most of beer cans are 500 ml. Could someone put a professional table of types of beer, and their caloric content per 100g? The use of "oz" is a joke! Are there still people on this planet who use this weird unit? (apart form the US-land that is slowest to progress)  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/93.89.200.51|93.89.200.51]] ([[User talk:93.89.200.51|talk]]) 00:14, 22 September 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2014 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Beer|answered=yes}}
<!-- Begin request -->
I'd like to add to this page, by citing that women were the principle brewers of beer in a domestic sense. 
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[[User:Sbmirck|Sbmirck]] ([[User talk:Sbmirck|talk]]) 03:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> — <span class="nowrap">&#123;&#123;U&#124;[[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]]&#125;&#125; <sup>([[Special:EmailUser/Technical 13|e]] • [[User talk:Technical 13|t]] • [[Special:Contribs/Technical 13|c]])</sup></span> 03:53, 12 December 2014 (UTC)