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:::::The article states its scope, which is quite wide. Things here should fall in that, but there doesn't need to be 1:1 word matching with this article's title. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 17:05, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::The article states its scope, which is quite wide. Things here should fall in that, but there doesn't need to be 1:1 word matching with this article's title. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 17:05, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
::::::I don't think the example I gave constitutes false treatments though. Again, the sources don't seem to state that they don't work, just that they aren't proven, so to list them here constitutes original research. Also, I don't think the scope of the article covers unproven treatments. If that were the case, ongoing medical studies for COVID-19 treatments would be classified under this article. [[User:Lightbloom|Lightbloom]] ([[User talk:Lightbloom|talk]]) 17:09, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
::::::I don't think the example I gave constitutes false treatments though. Again, the sources don't seem to state that they don't work, just that they aren't proven, so to list them here constitutes original research. Also, I don't think the scope of the article covers unproven treatments. If that were the case, ongoing medical studies for COVID-19 treatments would be classified under this article. [[User:Lightbloom|Lightbloom]] ([[User talk:Lightbloom|talk]]) 17:09, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::::In evidence-based medicine the assumption is something doesn't work until shown otherwise, since in nearly all cases treatments cannot be disproven. If something subject to "ongoing medical studies" was offered as an effective treatment, that would be misinformation too. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 17:29, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:29, 10 September 2023




Origins of COVID-19: Current consensus

  1. There is no consensus on whether the lab leak theory is a "conspiracy theory" or a "minority scientific viewpoint". (RfC, February 2021)
  2. There is consensus against defining "disease and pandemic origins" (broadly speaking) as a form of biomedical information for the purpose of WP:MEDRS. However, information that already fits into biomedical information remains classified as such, even if it relates to disease and pandemic origins (e.g. genome sequences, symptom descriptions, phylogenetic trees). (RfC, May 2021)
  3. In multiple prior non-RFC discussions about manuscripts authored by Rossana Segreto and/or Yuri Deigin, editors have found the sources to be unreliable. Specifically, editors were not convinced by the credentials of the authors, and concerns were raised with the editorial oversight of the BioEssays "Problems & Paradigms" series. (Jan 2021, Jan 2021, Jan 2021, Feb 2021, June 2021, ...)
  4. The consensus of scientists is that SARS-CoV-2 is likely of zoonotic origin. (January 2021, May 2021, May 2021, May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, WP:NOLABLEAK (frequently cited in discussions))
  5. The March 2021 WHO report on the origins of SARS-CoV-2 should be referred to as the "WHO-convened report" or "WHO-convened study" on first usage in article prose, and may be abbreviated as "WHO report" or "WHO study" thereafter. (RfC, June 2021)
  6. The "manufactured bioweapon" idea should be described as a "conspiracy theory" in wiki-voice. (January 2021, February 2021, May 2021, May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, June 2021, June 2021, July 2021, July 2021, July 2021, August 2021)
  7. The scientific consensus (and the Frutos et al. sources ([1][2]) which support it), which dismisses the lab leak, should not be described as "based in part on Shi [Zhengli]'s emailed answers." (RfC, December 2021)
  8. The American FBI and Department of Energy finding that a lab leak was likely should not be mentioned in the lead of COVID-19 lab leak theory, because it is WP:UNDUE. (RFC, October 2023)
  9. The article COVID-19 lab leak theory may not go through the requested moves process between 4 March 2024 and 3 March 2025. (RM, March 2024)

Last updated (diff) on 15 March 2024 by Novem Linguae (t · c)


Lab leak theory sources

List of good sources with good coverage to help expand. Not necessarily for inclusion but just for consideration. Preferably not articles that just discuss a single quote/press conference. The long-style reporting would be even better. Feel free to edit directly to add to the list. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Last updated by Julian Brown (talk) 23:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC) [reply]

[edit]  ·
Scholarship
For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:SCHOLARSHIP. For a database curated by the NCBI, see LitCoVID
[edit]  ·
Journalism
For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:NEWSORG.
[edit]  ·
Opinion-based editorials written by scientists/scholars
For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:RSOPINION.
[edit]  ·
Opinion-based editorials written by journalists
For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:RSOPINION.
[edit]  ·
Government and policy
Keep in mind, these are primary sources and thus should be used with caution!

References

Not just in the United States

In its section about governments trying to combat misinformation by censorship, the article says: In the United States, some elected officials aided the spread of misinformation.

This certainly was the case - but was not limited to the United States unfortunately! For example in my country, Germany, elected officials from the Alternative for Germany (AfD) party and persons who ran for elections on federral and Land ("state") levels - AfD again, but also Die Basis and probably some other small splinter parties - actively spread misinformation about COVID-19. ObersterGenosse (talk) 12:39, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are absolutely correct. If you have referenced information about other nations' government misinformation, or even better a review of worldwide incidence of such, you could add information from it to this article. IAmNitpicking (talk) 15:42, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I thought so, too, but I don't seem to have extended confirmed user status. In Germany, the government luckilly didn't spread misinformation or aid its spread, but elected officials (MdB = Member of the Bundestag) and members of state-level parliaments (Landtag) certainly did. Would references in German suffice? ObersterGenosse (talk) 23:09, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
German language should be OK. Maybe cite to a link w article translated by eg Google if possible. Source only judged by if a [[WP:RS]] or [[WP:MEDRS]] if required here (not sure). Maybe start w German Wikipedia and see how it goes or do both. Good luck. JustinReilly (talk) 23:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bioweapon idea and WikiVoice

We now have sourcing in the Times of London and the Daily Telegraph supporting the bioweapon idea. Lead paragraph of the Times story[5]: Scientists in Wuhan working alongside the Chinese military were combining the world’s most deadly coronaviruses to create a new mutant virus just as the pandemic began. If one reads the story further, it softens that a bit. But the above is definitely the opinion US State Department investigators, according to the Times. In light of this, I don't think we can any longer say in WikiVoice that the bioweapon idea is a conspiracy theory. I also don't think at this point we should say in WikiVoice that said idea is true. Instead, at this point, we should report the debate, per WP:WikiVoice. However, this article is no longer the correct place to do so. Related discussion at Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#Sunday_Times_of_London_article. Adoring nanny (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree at a minimum it’s no longer appropriate to use wikivoice here. JustinReilly (talk) 23:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. Murdoch press is Murdoch press. And the Daily Telegraph is demonstrably unreliable on the topic of COVID-19. XOR'easter (talk) 04:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both deletion and changes to voice. Nothing has changed. The evidence points to the Huanan seafood market as the origin of COVID (which is not very close to the WIV), but regardless, claims of a bioweapon is an extraordinary claim that is way off the deep end into conspiracy theory territory, per reliable sources. See thread. ScienceFlyer (talk) 17:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Neither support it, they report it in a way that means they do not actually come down in favour of it. Rather ascribing it to anonymous sources. Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Neither of these are the level of high quality reliable source we would need for such an extraordinary claim.
WP:ECREE: Warnings (red flags) that should prompt extra caution include: ...Claims contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions—especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living and recently dead people. — Shibbolethink ( ) 17:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
•Support, I agree that Wikivoice should not be used to say that bioweapon theories are true. But, by the same token, I do feel the case against them are not supported enough in either WP:MEDRS or WP:Reliable sources to merit use of Wikivoice to say they are untrue (eg “misinformation”, “conspiracy theories”).
Times, Sunday Times, Telegraph and Sunday Telegraph are considered to be four of only eight Quality press newspapers in the UK. More to the point, Times, Sunday Times, Telegraph and Sunday Telegraph are all considered by Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources told be Wikipedia:GREL.
A very related, but technically separate issue is whether lab leak and GoF/genetic engineering theories should be called “conspiracy theories” or “misinformation” in Wikivoice. I think it’s very clear at this point that they should not. I think a new Talk topic should be opened re this specific issue and I intend to when I get some time. JustinReilly (talk) 12:51, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot there’s an ongoing extensive discussion (of which I think most of you may be aware) of the ancillary question I brought up on the Talk page of a more specialized article: Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory under the Topic “What's the source for the claim - "most scientists believe the virus spilled into human populations through natural zoonosis"” (May 16, 2023) JustinReilly (talk) 13:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A number of better sources describe SARS bioweapon conspiracy theories as among the most outlandish, there's no valid reason to remove the current material, especially if the only argument are these sources. —PaleoNeonate11:02, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 June 2023

Under "Wuhan lab origin > Bio-weapon" section, add the following paragraph:

In 2021 the US department of state released a statement alleging that "The WIV has engaged in classified research, including laboratory animal experiments, on behalf of the Chinese military since at least 2017."

Citation: https://2017-2021.state.gov/fact-sheet-activity-at-the-wuhan-institute-of-virology/index.html WatchDogx (talk) 01:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done This is not a reliable source per Wikipedia's standards. It also does not demonstrate that the information is WP:DUE and relevant to this article. With a different source, it may be appropriate for the Wuhan Institute of Virology article. — Shibbolethink ( ) 13:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete "Alleged leak of death toll by Tencent" entry based on blog post

The New Bloom blog post titled "Taiwan News Publishes COVID-19 Misinformation as Epidemic Spreads" which levies allegations of “misinformation” against the Taiwan News Tencent article is disreputable because it is based on the assessment of a non-existent person. The “former biosciences graduate” cited in the article, “Lars Wooster,” has not publicly published any papers and has no web presence with the exception of the single post uploaded by the blogger Brian Hioe. In addition, the photo of Wooster https://newbloommag.net/author/lars-wooster was AI-generated.

Secondly, Hioe has a track record of harassing and openly attacking Taiwan News for the sake of drawing attention to his blog post cited in this page is a typical example of his hit pieces against the news agency. Hioe has a personal vendetta against the author of the Taiwan News articles in question and has routinely issued defamatory comments against the author on social media platforms such as Twitter and Facebook.

Thirdly, the Wikipedia entry states that the author of the original news article defended the authenticity and newsworthiness of the leak in an interview with WION, but fails to properly link to the actual WION interview and instead links for a second time to the same Hioe blog post. The following is the correct link to the WION interview: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2581906558753179.

Therefore, in order to maintain Wikipedia’s standards of neutrality and objectivity when presenting information about the Covid pandemic, the attacks authored by Hioe and associated content regarding Taiwan News’ coverage of the pandemic should be removed immediately.

Furthermore, The Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-families-should-be-sweeping-graves-now-but-thousands-still-havent-buried-their-dead/2020/04/03/5a6daa50-7234-11ea-ad9b-254ec99993bc_story.html and other media outlets later reported that based on the excess urns sold at crematoriums in Wuhan in early 2020, point to an estimated 40,000 deaths from COVID, consistent with the Tencent leak and mass cremation articles. The Economist in 2022 estimated that deaths from the first wave of Covid in China was as high as 1.7 million: https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgecalhoun/2022/01/02/beijing-is-intentionally-underreporting-chinas-covid-death-rate-part-1/?sh=730dea784352. Taiwantruthseeker (talk) 05:09, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If the purpose of the post was to provide the original source of the reports on the data leaks by Tencent, there were multiple Taiwanese media outlets that reported the incidents far earlier than Taiwan News, such as Liberty Times https://news.ltn.com.tw/news/world/breakingnews/3050613 and New Tang Dynasty Television https://www.ntdtv.com/gb/2020/02/03/a102768360.html. The post in its current state is tainted by Hioe's biased agenda against Taiwan News. There is no reason to list Taiwan News rather than the original sources of the news in this post other than to further Hioe's agenda of denigrating the news agency for personal gain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.197.235.17 (talk) 17:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article is hard to understand

The lead section is very detailed about specific points, but it is hard to understand why the subject is notable. It is missing facts such as dates and time frames, the impact, why it is important and who it is important to. I think it needs to provide a general summary and leave out the specifics. Lightbloom (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Original research

From the article's section "Treatment"

Treatment

Main article: List of unproven methods against COVID-19

Widely circulated posts on social media have made many unfounded claims of treatment methods of COVID-19. Some of these claims are scams, and some promoted methods are dangerous and unhealthy. Herbal treatments

Various national and party-held Chinese media heavily advertised an "overnight research" report by Wuhan Institute of Virology and Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica, Chinese Academy of Sciences, on how shuanghuanglian, an herb mixture from traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), can effectively inhibit COVID-19. The report led to a purchase craze of shuanghuanglian.

The source provided for the last paragraph is here [6]. However, I cannot see from the article why it belongs on COVID-19 misinformation. It does, however, seem relevant to the main article List of unproven methods against COVID-19.

From a cursory read, this seems to be a recurring problem throughout the article. Am I correct in saying that sources should specifically state that the information is (according to the lead) false information, including intentional disinformation, or a conspiracy theory? Lightbloom (talk) 16:16, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The scope of the article is very wide (your copied text from the lede truncates it), and include bogus treatments. The 'Treatments' section here is referencing List of unproven methods against COVID-19 as a "main" article, so it should really be just a brief summary of that article. Bon courage (talk) 16:42, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it should just have a brief summary. The given examples with sources in this section seem to not mention specifically that the treatments don't work, just that they haven't been proved yet or that they are traditional remedies, so listing them here in detail draws a connection that constitutes original research. Lightbloom (talk) 16:54, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If something 'hasn't been proved' but is offered as a treatment, that's quackery and misinformation. Bon courage (talk) 16:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree but the sources don't seem to mention it is quackery and misinformation so I think it falls under original research to specifically detail it in COVID-19 misinformation. I provided one example but this looks like a common pattern throughout. Lightbloom (talk) 16:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article states its scope, which is quite wide. Things here should fall in that, but there doesn't need to be 1:1 word matching with this article's title. Bon courage (talk) 17:05, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the example I gave constitutes false treatments though. Again, the sources don't seem to state that they don't work, just that they aren't proven, so to list them here constitutes original research. Also, I don't think the scope of the article covers unproven treatments. If that were the case, ongoing medical studies for COVID-19 treatments would be classified under this article. Lightbloom (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In evidence-based medicine the assumption is something doesn't work until shown otherwise, since in nearly all cases treatments cannot be disproven. If something subject to "ongoing medical studies" was offered as an effective treatment, that would be misinformation too. Bon courage (talk) 17:29, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]