Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine

Wooden language

the Western reductionist and mechanistic approach to diseases—that's the wooden language of alt-med peddlers. What those words mean? That they're discontent with empirical science. And that they don't really have better science, but they're just trying to pull the wool over our faces. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Would you mind formulate your concern in plain English? I am not able to provive a replay if I do not have a clear explanation of the potertial issue.

Many thanks Safetystuff (talk) 02:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

It means that the Western reductionist and mechanistic approach to diseases is the standard complaint of pseudoscientists about "Western" science. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that the authors writing these papers on Science and Nature are pseudoscientists?

I have referencing contributions from two prestegious journals, Science and Nature. You might want to raise this issue with these journals if you have strong argumenst proving they are pseudoscientists and their research is not reliable. I do not think Wikipedia is the right place for this judgment. Safetystuff (talk) 02:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

It's standard pro-quackery jargon, borrowed from quantum flapdoodle.

The randomized, controlled trial design, however, has distinct limitations when applied to TCM, because TCM is holistic and conceptual, and it identifies and treats ‘syndromes’ rather than diseases. Same excuse as for why homeopathy cannot be tested through RCTs. Namely, RCTs throw sand in the gears, err, in the holism.

Gan c.s. speak of "mechanistic", but consider it a feature, not a bug.

Herbalome participants could postpone publishing positive results indefinitely, they just need to claim they need time in order to develop drug patents, which could otherwise be stolen by Western Big Pharma. See? Just claim it is a secret, and they can dodge criticism forever.

The paper from Nature Portfolio is advertisement. See WP:PROMO. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Reverted for now. There are the tone issues, which may be fixable, but the sourcing and weight issues are more difficult to overcome. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:07, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Yup, Gan c.s. do not seem to WP:V their claim, and interpreting the Herbalome paper is a tad difficult, since it is a dialogue between two opposite viewpoints, and the reader has to make up their own mind about which of those viewpoints is right. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

By reverting you are basically neglecting one view which is published on top scientific journals: Science and Nature. Is there any conflict of interest?

You might want to justify this action before making such a strong decision. This looks to me censure. The statements provided in the new version were supported by references so why are you deleting it? Safetystuff (talk) 04:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I did justify my action. Was there part of the explanation that you would like more detail on? To flip things around a bit, are you confident that all the sources you cited were high-quality, reliable sources? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The sources were clear and reputable so I have undo your change. Please discuss here before taking actions. If you have issue with the Nature and Science papers please explain what is the issue Safetystuff (talk) 05:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

One Nature source is an ad, and the other is an opinion piece ("Viewpoint"). One of the Science sources is a news article. The last source (this one), does not support the proposed article text. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 05:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Yup, according to Gan c.s. the "mechanistic" explanation is yet unavailable, but when it will be available, it will be something good, not something bad. That is, they are not opposed to mechanistic thinking, they just think that's too complicated at this time.

And I think the rules for sourcing need an explanation: according to WP:PARITY, the two sides of the dispute are not equal, so lower-quality sources are allowed for rendering the mainstream scientific position, but not for rendering the WP:PROFRINGE position. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I just want to remind you that Science is not based on democratic consent. If democratic consent is the backbone of Wikipedia then we need better than this if we want to use it to disseminate Science.

Just a small story from over 100y ago

"One hundred German physicists claim Einsteins theory of relativity is wrong." Einsteins reply was supposedly, "If I were wrong, it would only take one." Safetystuff (talk) 07:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

If the scientific consensus was that relativity was wrong, then Wikipedia, if it had been around then, would have reported that relativity was wrong. See WP:NOT. Brunton (talk) 09:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I thought Wikipedia was aiming to inform the public on many things including scientific progress. It seems the system is not built to provide unbiased information to the public. Pretty scary Safetystuff (talk) 10:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I just want to remind you that Science is not based on democratic consent Next time, please respond to what people actually say instead of what you are fantasizing they said. tgeorgescu talked about lower-quality sources, not about "democratic consent". But I understand that you need to use bad reasoning - you have no choice since there are no good reasons for your position. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:36, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I will ask colleagues from our Medical School for better references.

No need to be aggressive/rude as your colleague/friend just admitted that democratic consent is the rule on Wikipedia. So please avoid personal attacks as we are all here to share knowledge without an agenda. Aren't we?

p

Please refer to the previous reply I received of on the democratic consent on Wikipedia. No need to attack me as I am on Wikipedia to spread scientific knowledge. Sometimes the state of the art is not back or white and people have the right to know. Safetystuff (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a democracy. So, yes, it is about WP:CONSENSUS, but not a democratic one.

And Wikipedia is indeed biased, see WP:PSCI, WP:GEVAL, and WP:FRINGE.

Artemisinin has been objectively shown to work, but such success stories are few and far between. There could be tens of similar medicines hiding among TCM cures, but it would require thousands of billions USD to research them, and it would require Chinese medical scientists to deny for 99% of TCM cures that those are effective, which in present-day China seems like academic suicide. Being honest would mean quarrels with every TCM professor in the country, and would likely get that scientist arrested. Because, even if most of TCM is not effective, it is big business and brings a lot of money for the country. Being honest about TCM would mean the death of many lucrative enterprises. The Chinese government has the same attitude towards researching the truth about TCM as the Trump government had about researching the truth about anthropogenic global warming. The difference being that Trump could not get scientists arrested at whim. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Scientific questions are not resolved by platitudes and trivialities. You can talk about "black and white" or "not democratic" as much as you want, it still comes down to facts and sources. And it is still true that nobody said anything about "democratic consent". Stop using this straw man. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Pseudoscience and western biomedicine colonialism bias/western ethnocentrism

Describing Traditional Chinese Medicine as "pseudoscience" in a post-WHO recognized practice world is nothing short of an ethnocentric bias by western biomedical gatekeepers of medicine/healthcare. This article needs to be edited to recognize the medical anthropology concept of medical pluralism that notes the art of medical care, not just as empirical research of western medicine, but many different practices and techniques shown to be effective (even if empirical research fails to understand how these methods work) are functional methods of healthcare/medicine. Healthcare in of itself is not empirical science. It has existed since the Paleolithic and found in several different animal species other than humans (H. sapiens). Over time certain methods and practices have been proven to be ineffective, even within biomedicine. But some things have stood the test of time regardless if it is associated with biomedicine or not. TCM is one of those practices that have shown to be effective even in some cases where biomedicine fails to be effective. The label "pseudoscience" was important in the age of miasma theory vs germ theory when biomedicine was critiquing itself. But now western biomedicine serves as a vessel for colonialism by means of stealing methods and practices from non-western cultures, repurposing what is found to be "effective" through empirical research, and plagiarizing it as a part of biomedicine while slandering the non-biomedicine practices as "pseudoscience." This term is derogatory and places TCM under the same umbrella as flat earth, creationism/intelligent design, and miasma theory. Please see Medical Anthropology: A Biocultural Approach by Wiley and Allen and use these sources below:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781118924396.wbiea1281

https://www.americanscientist.org/blog/from-the-staff/stop-using-the-word-pseudoscience ChallengingAnthropocentrism ([[User talk:|talk]]) 00:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Medicine is not like anthropology field that you come from. It is far less subjective, despite complications with the placebo effect and other confounding factors. There is no robust clinical proof the vast majority of Traditional Chinese Medicine have any sort of effectiveness (see [1]). TCM is pseudoscience because it claims to be a rational method of treatment based on concepts that are not scientific, like vital meridians (see [2]). TCM practitioners often make outlandish claims regarding the effectiveness of their products [3]. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

(even if empirical research fails to understand how these methods work)—generally speaking, robust empirical research never claimed that TCM does work at all, with a few exceptions. TCM was adopted by chairman Mao because Western-style anesthesia was too expensive. And the people who dared to say that anesthesia through acupuncture did not work were sent to concentration camps. That's how Mao obtained a consensus on TCM: he sent everybody who disagreed to the labor camp. Mao killed more innocent people than Hitler or Stalin.

TCM relies upon Ancient mystical hogwash, which was revived for utterly cynical reasons under National-Communism.

Medical pluralism might be normative at your faculty, it isn't normative at Wikipedia. It is simply your norm, not our norm. Here normative are WP:MEDRS, WP:PSCI, WP:GEVAL, WP:ECREE, and WP:FRINGE. In the end, Wikipedia is what it is, is not a forum with limitless free speech, so you have to obey our WP:RULES, like any other person who wants to edit here.

If you think we should kowtow to medical pluralism: you're in the wrong place. It's none of our business, see WP:RGW.

I can understand perfectly the argument you're making, and I can tell you for a fact that it is contrary to the policies and guidelines of this encyclopedia. Just because I understand your argument, I don't have to agree with it, nor does anyone else.

Your POV would be absolutely correct in Larry Sanger's interpretation of WP:NPOV (what neutrality should mean according to him). But you should know that the Sangerite interpretation has been vanquished, here at Wikipedia.

Editing is done by the Wikipedia Community, the community is a social group, a social group has social norms, and your argument does not comply with the norms for editing Wikipedia articles. You may choose to become an insider or to remain an outsider. The choice is yours.

But some things have stood the test of time—in the anthropological sense, any superstitious hogwash still practiced in the 21st century "has stood the test of time". That does not say anything though about being capable of healing diseases. Anthropology isn't the science called to make that call. It is just hogwash which has endured for centuries. Anthropology cannot offer the answer if it is effective medicine or quackery. It does not have the required tools for doing that. Medical science has. Anthropology can say "This group of people behave like spirits are real." It cannot say "Spirits are real." That's not how anthropology works. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:36, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

"This does not at all mean that we don’t in loose, rough and ready ways judge interpretations… all the time. And this does not at all mean that practically speaking that some interpretations are obviously slightly better than others. Let me return to familiar ones like the traffic light. If it’s red and you see it as green, the outcome can be disastrous; Derrida doesn’t deny it. You know, it’s a bad misreading… bad misreading. But this is a familiar mistake and it is made about a lot of Derrida’s work. Philosophers call someone a relativist by which they mean it’s a person that holds that any view is as good as any other view. My simple response to that is this: that is a straw person argument, no-one in the world believes it or ever has believed it.

"No-one – Derrida or anyone else – believes that every view is as good as every other view. That’s only a view we discuss in freshman philosophy class in order to quickly refute it. I mean no-one believes it. There are no defenders of the view and since this tape will be going out, if we run into one it will be interesting, but we will likely find that person in one of the institutions Foucault discussed rather than in some seminar, okay. That’s where we will find them, if anybody believes that. No, Derrida’s kind of slippage is to remind us that the text of philosophy is not fixed; can not be fixed. It is of the nature of the text of philosophy and its relation to language that we cannot fix it once and for all. In a way it’s like the leaky ship where we haven’t got anything to stop the leak so we just keep bailing. I mean, the leak is in the language."

— —Rick Roderick, 307 Derrida and the Ends of Man (1993)

Quoted by tgeorgescu. And, to answer the charge, it is medical-science-centrism, not ethnocentrism. It is a big difference, though. We don't say that people of Chinese, Hindu, or African origin cannot practice medical science. We criticize superstitions, not nations, nor ethnic groups. Or, to put it otherwise, is nuclear physics ethnocentric? No, since North Korea and Iran love nuclear power. They don't reject nuclear physics as "Western colonialism". Their uranium centrifuges have been designed in the West, but for some reason they don't regard that as "cultural imperialism".

And I can grant you the point that many Chinese herbal teas are effective against diseases. But this is merely because allopathic medicines have been added to the herbs, so marketing them as natural products is a scam. And let's not forget about Herb-Induced Liver Injury. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

In Taiwan to a quarter of traditional Chinese medicines there were seemingly added standard medicines (which are available on prescription). Among them there were dangerous substances, such as phenytoin (an anti-epileptic), glibenclamide (lowers blood sugar) and corticosteroids.

— prof. dr. Martijn B. Katan, Wat is nu gezond? 1st ed., p. 146

In Taiwan a quarter of traditional Chinese medicines were found to apparently incorporate (prescription) drugs. Among them there were dangerous substances, such as phenytoin (an anti-convulsive), glibenclamide (lowers blood sugar) and corticosteroids.

— prof. dr. Martijn B. Katan, Wat is nu gezond? 1st ed., p. 146

Two alternative translations of the same WP:RS. In Dutch:

In supplementen worden ook in Nederland regelmatig toxische gehaltes aangetroffen van lood, arsenicum, kwik, thallium en cadmium. Deels zijn het veront­reinigingen, deels zijn ze toegevoegd vanuit het misplaatste idee dat ze ziekten genezen. Deze stoffen hebben geleid tot hersenoedeem, kanker, nierfalen en sterfte. Verder worden aan Chinese en Indische kruiden soms heimelijk gewone genees­middelen toegevoegd om de werking te versterken. In Taiwan bleken aan een kwart van de traditionele Chinese medicijnen gewone (recept)geneesmiddelen te zijn toegevoegd. Daaronder waren gevaarlijke stoffen als phenytoïne (een anti-epilepsiemiddel), glibenclamide (bloedsuikerverlagend) en corti-costeroïden. Ook kruiden en theesoorten om te vermageren kunnen ernstige bijwerkingen hebben.

— Martijn B. Katan

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 17:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

You completely missed the point. I am not claiming that TCM is a replacement or equivalent to western biomedicine. I am illustrating the medical pluralism argument of healthcare being an art form, not just a science. What I propose is to remove the derogatory term "pseudoscience" which has been used to promote colonialism and racism. ChallengingAnthropocentrism (talk) 18:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No he did not. Things can have more than one property. Something can be an art form and a pseudoscience. That "colonialism and racism" accusation is balderdash. The same people who call TCM pseudosience also call chiropractic and homeopathy pseudoscience, and they [later addition: "they" means those two pseudociences] come from the US and Germany. You are trying to promote WP:FRINGE content and whitewash dangerous quackery that can kill people. Stop it. --Hob Gadling (talk) 04:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Nearly every other language of this article is not derogatorily referring TCM, and have sound sourcing/citation, why is that? 58.152.67.69 (talk) 00:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

My educated guess is: because they have not adopted WP:RULES such as WP:MEDRS, WP:PSCI, and WP:FRINGE. And above all: because they don't love science enough. They still lean for the Sangerite understanding of WP:NPOV as bereft of the WP:GEVAL proviso. They have to grow up. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Two Spanish Wikipedia lead sentences (machine translated) from es:Medicina china tradicional: It has been described as "laden with pseudoscience," and most of its treatments do not have a logical, scientifically based mechanism of action.[5​6]​ and: However, it is important to note that the concept of vital energy is pseudoscientific, and scientific research has not found any histological or physiological evidence to support the traditional Chinese concepts of qi, or meridians.note [1​11]

One French Wikipedia lead paragraph (machine translated) from fr:Médecine traditionnelle chinoise: Alongside the history of Chinese medicine, numerous therapies are offered today under the label of “traditional Chinese medicine”, inspired more or less freely by elements of this tradition without updating for essentially folkloric reasons. or commercial1, and constitute a pseudo-science[2,3], with sometimes deleterious effects on potential patients[4].

One German Wikipedia lead paragraph (machine translated) from de:Traditionelle chinesische Medizin: From a scientific point of view, the therapeutic effectiveness of many TCM treatment methods is disputed and several treatment methods are considered pseudoscientific.[10][11] In general, the assumptions of TCM contradict current facts about human physiology or anatomy.[6]

I don't know where you got your Nearly every other language of this article is not claim, but it is not from those three. And even if it were as you say: Wikipedia, in whatever language, is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Wikipedia is not the place for TCM, if you want to get detailed info on that, go to Baidu, Wikipedia don't have nearly enough TCM practitioners to make this article lean that way. 58.152.67.69 (talk) 02:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not a question of not having enough editors. The policies and guidelines of Wikipedia do not allow us to treat TCM the way OP and you want. You would be right only if the following were abolished: WP:FRINGE and WP:MEDRS; WP:LUNATICS, WP:CHOPSY and WP:GOODBIAS; WP:DUE, WP:PSCI and WP:FALSEBALANCE; WP:ARBPS and WP:ARBCAM. Since this hasn't happened, you're wrong, completely wrong. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, I am talking about these polices, there is not enough TCM practitioners here to influence them, and I'm not even thinking about "treat TCM the way OP and I want.", I'm just saying Baidu is more tolerant with TCM. 58.152.67.69 (talk) 05:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, the policies and guidelines are subservient to the purpose of writing a science- and WP:SCHOLARSHIP-based encyclopedia. Meaning: WP:PAGs are not arbitrary whims, which could change through democratic participation. We're merciless with superstitions, including with Western superstitions. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:48, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I should waste more time with you and your policies, It's not even my central point. 58.152.67.69 (talk) 06:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place for TCM—I agree. Generally speaking: medical science is not the place for TCM. Or, shorter: science is not the place for TCM. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, glad we agree. 58.152.67.69 (talk) 06:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

This page is scientifically inaccurate and negatively biased

Wow! Quite apart from the overall racist tone, this page is objectively inaccurate and misleading. There is a LOT of reliable evidence about various TCM mechanisms of action, readily available on google scholar. Much of the research relates to areas of medical science that are relatively new to western understanding eg inflammatory responses, the HPA axis, the nervous system, the microbiome/s and how all of these systems talk to each other. The sources cited here are outdated and mostly disproven - the critique uses sources from 2008 to justify the bulk of the argument (back when we were still using flip phones). It’s very sad that wiki has such a poor quality page for TCM, it’s an incredibly interesting field both scientifically and culturally. It’s also potentially turning people away from using potentially effective TCM treatments for conditions that are difficult to treat otherwise, like chronic pain disorders This really needs to be fixed. 49.185.83.184 (talk) 06:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows reliable sources and for biomedical claims needs WP:MEDRS. Bon courage (talk) 06:13, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Kowtowing to WP:BESTSOURCES is not racism. You don't get away with pushing quackery at Wikipedia just because you accuse Wikipedians of racism. WP:NOTDUMB.

There will always be crappy papers which have not been debunked yet. Mainly because a lot of papers are simply ignored by mainstream scientists, instead of taking them seriously.

A few rare TCM remedies could be developed into mainstream medicines. But this requires hard work instead of rhetorical ploys. Accusations of racism are not what gets your medicine approved on US/EU market.

Let's take the microbiome: the evidence that all TCM cures are good at the microbiome is simply missing. That's just hand waving at the idea of microbiome. It's not a claim that could be taken seriously, unless there are WP:MEDRS-compliant sources for thousands of TCM remedies.

Chinese medical scientists lack funds for performing research, lack freedom of speech, lack a culture of contradicting their peers if objective evidence so demands—they're basically educated that speaking truth to power is insanity. They know that criticizing TCM could make some CCP boss angry, and that would mean jail time. Totalitarianism is a ruthless game, and science is its victim. The PRC government is not interested whether TCM is effective, they just see it as a cash cow. Research about its effectiveness could only ruin the cash flow. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Article should not be in the pseudoscience category

It is no more pseudoscience than something like alchemy. You can't just put the entirety of TCM in the pseudoscience category when at least some of it has been proven. SecretSpectre (talk) 00:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

TCM, in its actual incarnation, is a product of the 20th century, specifically the Cultural Revolution.

Also, since it has tens of thousands of remedies, tens of them are effective by mere chance. That does not "prove" TCM.

And there is a dirty secret of why the Chinese herbal teas are effective against illness, see the quote from Katan above. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:23, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I usually think it's best to disregard these perennial complaints, but I have to comment that I agree that TCM is little different in this regard than alchemy is. In fact, it's a good comparison. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:16, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Most TCM formulae etc. have been around for a thousand years, before the
2. Is that not how discoveries are made? Most of the formulations were made before the very concept of science itself. I think it is more of a proto-science.
3. Some unscrupulous actors does not mean the entire thing is invalid. I, for one, have never seen pharmaceuticals in TCM. People regularly use Western medicine to claim all sorts of rubbish too. Or maybe we could have a separate article for controversies in TCM like those claims have.

SecretSpectre (talk) 23:31, 19 September 2024 (UTC)