Talk:Islam in Australia

Sources needed for community activity and its history

Community activity needs to be expanded. If you have relevant articles about any comment, please feel free to add them by replying below.

• requirement: community activity that is initiated by the community for the benefit and well being of said community.

Bro The Man (talk) 13:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Re: Consensus on Islam's presence in Pre-Europen arrival Australia.

In the pursuit of establishing a WP:Consensus to anchor the WP:NPOV for the narrative of Islam's presence in Australia. I recommend deferring to the position of the Federal Government of Australia. On the page discussing Makassar relationship with Pre-Europe Australia, the National Museum of Australia writes: [the following is an excerpt from the publicly available website; attribution supplied]

Influence on Yolŋu society and ritual

• The Makasar did not settle in Arnhem Land but they did have an influence on Yolŋu society and ritual. They introduced calico, tobacco and smoking pipes, and words that are still in use today, such as rrupia (money).
• Most importantly they introduced an item of technology that transformed Yolŋu life – metal. Metal blades, knives and axes made everyday practices easier for Yolŋu, from cutting food to making large dugout canoes and complex wooden sculptures.
• Matthew Flinders, 1803:

  ... we learned that they were prows from Macassar, and the six Malay commanders shortly afterwards came on board in a canoe. It happened fortunately that my cook was a Malay, and through his means I was able to communicate with them. The chief of the six prows was a short, elderly man, named Pobassoo; he said there were upon the coast, in different divisions, sixty prows ..

National Museum of Australia, Defining Moments: Trade with the Makasar, NMA website, 05 August 2024, accessed 31 October 2024. [ https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/trade-with-the-makasar ]

Internal References:

• Marshall Clark and Sally K May (eds), ‘Macassan History and Heritage’, ANU Press, Canberra, 2013
• Regina Tranter, ‘Turning the map upside down’, Griffith Review, no. 9, August 2006
• Charles Campbell Macknight, The Voyage to Marege: Macassan Trepangers in Northern Australia, Melbourne University Press, Melbourne, 1976.

Copywrite release:

• Unlimited for non-commercial educational purposes
• https://www.nma.gov.au/about/contact-us/copyright

Bro The Man (talk) 14:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Excerpt from — Dept. of Immigration and Citizenship, 2009 :

Muslim migration to Australia pre-dates European settlement and has been traced as far back as the 16th and 17th centuries. During this time Indonesians known as ‘Macassans’ shared their lives with local Indigenous people throughout northern Australia through trade, ceremony, marriage and family

Australia. Department of Immigration and Citizenship (2009), The Australian journey : Muslim communities, Dept. of Immigration and Citizenship, ISBN 9781921446979, retrieved 31 October 2024 – via National Library of Australia

Bro The Man (talk) 15:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:NEGOTIATE : Aim at the top during disputes.

Further information: Wikipedia:Negotiation

Talking to other parties is not a mere formality, but an integral part of writing the encyclopedia. Discussing heatedly or poorly – or not at all – will make other editors less sympathetic to your position, and prevent you from effectively using later stages in dispute resolution. Sustained discussion between the parties, even if not immediately successful, demonstrates your good faith and shows you are trying to reach a consensus. Try negotiating a truce or proposing a compromise through negotiation. Bro The Man (talk) 14:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Bloated lead section

I reverted excessive text added to the lead section in violation of WP:LEAD. The lead section must summarize the article body. The bloated lead section was making arguments that were not found in the article body, starting with Islam being called the "oldest non-aboriginal religion" in Oz. The claim is based on seafaring traders that did not settle in Oz, so how can it be a religion of the land? In any case, these arguments should be fleshed out in the article body, not the lead section. Binksternet (talk) 23:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Prior editors in the section labelled as "Prior to 1860", detail how the Yolngu have adopted central Islamic ideas like a Universal God, funeral rites using Islamic recitation. However, it is correct that, prior to your overhauling revert, that Sunset Prayers are only mentioned in the Lede.

Are you okay, with me developing that idea within the body? Bro The Man (talk) 06:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Coincidentally, I have had a productive discussion on my talk page regarding best strategies in lede writing.

1. Leads require no citation (very convenient), except for direct quotation.

2. Only developed ideas in the body should be found in the lead

3. The information focused in the lead should in proportion to the body of the article

All the above is set conditionally on:

Ideas are explicitly discussed

They reflect popular consensus among 3rd party works, thus forming the basis of NPOV

Correctly cited and attributed. Bro The Man (talk) 06:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

And finally, you've reintroduced Islamophobia in your most recent reversion. How do we move forward with a consensus? Bro The Man (talk) 07:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

You can propose changes and see whether those changes gain consensus here on the talk page. Binksternet (talk) 15:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I propose a reversion to the version at @GünniX 's edit which was the previous status quo without contention.

To address the lead, i propose the below shortened version. All the information is already present in the GunniX version.

Islam in Australia is the second-largest, also oldest non-aboriginal religion in Australia and its followers represent 183 nationalities within Australia alone.¹ According to the 2021 Census in Australia, the combined population of self-identified Muslim Australians, of all schools and branches of Islam, total to 813,392 people, or 3.2% of the total Australian population. [2: previously present sentence moved for length ]

Islam's presence in Australia is speculated to be almost 500 years. As currently practiced, Islam's influence can be seen within The Dreaming" myths of Aboriginal nations along the northern coast, and Torres Strait Islands. For example, the Yolngu of Arnhem land, has adapted the Islamic concept of "Allah Ta'ala" – god almighty, as a Dreaming co-deity – "Walitha-Walitha" as well as a version of Islamic recitation with daily sunset prayer. {3}

Yolngu elders attribute the influence to sea-cucumber trade with Indonesian—Makassars. Radiocarbon dating of wax figures next to aboriginal cave art pictures of Makassan ships (proa), propose this relationship could have started at 1517 A.D or earlier. This is ~300 years ^:3-6 before European Settlers arriving in 1770 A.D, and possibly been ongoing for 400 years before it ended in 1906 due to heavy government taxation/policy against non-white commerce. {4}

While 30% of Australians are foreign born, Islam is the fastest growing religion in Australia and the World. Growing from 1.7% –2006, up to 2.6% –2016, and now 3.2% as of 2021 census. Converts or "reverts to Islam" are 15.8% of Australian Muslims , according to Cambridge University Press, reflecting a gradual stream of "Westerners picking up Islam". In comparison, 20% of US Muslims are reverts. From one anecdote, "It [Islam] just offers stability, kind of remove our focus from materialism." Additional growth trends in the 2021 Australian census, is attributed to recent immigration patterns and reflected by increased birth rates, a pattern similar with earlier immigrant groups.^{7}

Australian Muslims are predominantly Sunni accompanied by a large Shia minority, following a typical Islamic schism, whom both act as umbrellas for all remaining sub-groups and schools of thought. There are Sufi (Islamic mysticism) minorities among the Muslim community, as well as a representation of rare smaller Islamic denominations such as Ibadi Muslim Australians of Omani descent. There are ~20,000 Druze Australians who are a religious offshoot of Islam and arrived in Australia with the immigration eras from Lebanon and Syria. Adherents of Islam represent the majority of the population in Cocos (Keeling) Islands, an external territory of Australia. {6}

Most Australian Muslims feel that they share a common religious identity, although Australian Muslims are not a monolithic community. They are extremely diverse racially, ethnically, culturally and linguistically. Thus, different Muslim groups within the Australian Muslim community also express parallel non-religious ethnic identities with related non-Muslim counterparts, either within Australia or abroad.

[1]: Information withdrawn from pre-existing article but not stated in article body. Body: Demographics summary will be updated to include this.

[2]: Moved to Demog Summ: Muslims are marginally above Hinduism–2.7% and Buddhism–2.4%, making Australian Muslims the second most significant religious grouping after all denominations of Australian Christianity–44% (inclusive of non-practicing cultural Christians). While 39% are reported as non-religious.

{3} revised wording

{4} revised wording

[5]: Moved to Islamic Denominations : They function as umbrellas whose followers also further branch into diverse yet organised schools of thought—Fiqh or jurisprudence, principles that inform the peer-review process for assessing credibility of historical Hadith articles (qualified narration) to aide the interpretation of Sharia/canon within the Quran. While Islamic law is considered relatively static and universal due to rigorous preservation, Fiqh informs a scholar how to apply the law—Sharia while emphasising context and relevance with a lenient philosophy. This process is credited for the eventual development of the scientific method, along with Islam's positive attitude towards science, giving rise to the Islamic Golden Age that birthed the beginnings of modern medicine, physics, maths, and chemistry, that were produced by pioneers like Avi Sina, Ibn Al-haytham, and Al-Biruni. Islamic innovations were later used as the foundations of the European Renaissance.

{6}: revised wording

{7}: reduced wording Bro The Man (talk) 04:50, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any sources talking about Islam being the oldest religion in Australia. The claim is at best a violation of WP:SYNTH, and more likely a serious misrepresentation of sources. Abdullah Saeed wrote in Islam in Australia that the first few Afghan Muslims came to Australia along with European settlers, because the Afghans were sailors on British ships in the early 1800s. The seagoing nomadic Makassars don't count because they did not make permanent settlements. Binksternet (talk) 05:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay then, how about this revision:

• Islam is Australia's second-largest religion, with the oldest presence among non aboriginal religions, speculated to be 500 years if not older. It represents 183 nationalities within Australia alone.

Yolgnu beliefs are folk islamic as a matter of fact. Allah is their god, my guy. Which makes them a related identity of islam, even if adopted in parts.

I wouldn't be so quick to use a typical visual presentation of islam to exclude the Yolngu from being a related associated identity of islam. Islamic principles form significant elements of their identities and beliefs. They prayed at periodic times in the day, believed in a form of after life, and believed in a universal deity of which they come from and they will return to. These beliefs are also amalgamated into their folk beliefs retaining expressions that prioritise sef-determination and affirmation. Allah is literally one of their central deities for hundreds of years, until today.

This is basically an allele of the Makassar folk islam. Muslims don't regards the makassar as muslims but they are respected and associated with islam because islamic principles define significant portions of their folk identity.The island makassar's between australia identify as makassars first, with their own set of beliefs and customs inherited from their anscestors. This is before identifying as indonesian or thirdly muslim.

When the Makassar came to Australia, they brought with them, their folk islam where tribal-identity was in the forefront. Passing their ideas on, that influence and eventual tensions within the Yolgnu as well as between the makassar; the Yolngu formed their own adaptation of the makassar folk adaptation of Islam. They retained what they wanted, just as the Makassar did. Not only islam influences both beliefs of both people, it is one of the primary aspirations for their personal contexts, both demanding self-affirmation of their own folk identity

A reference within this article written by McIntosh (a strong source, but islamophobic) recounts tales about makassar and Yolngu discourse occurring alongside fishing expeditions. These discourses solved issues of murder and suicide within specifically their community. In the early period, there were Yolngu citizens who developed different ideas.

Both Yolgnu with different ideas and those and those who wanted to explore the outside world, travelled back with the Makassar to Indonesia. Some married and stayed while most of both groups returned to their nations. In these expeditions is when Makassar both developed a common ritual shared between them. Despite returning with new tech and what wealth they can collect in between expedition periods, a defining part of their experiences was culture shock and the struggle navigating the village communities of the Makassar. This was common in the early era of trapanging. Out of this dynamic, the modern identity of the folk islamic Yolngu was born, both aboriginal and muslim(folk makassar), yet uniquely Yolngu. Bro The Man (talk) 08:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Again, no. Don't try to give Islam more authority by giving it greater age. You are creating your own new conclusion, a violation of WP:SYNTH. Abdullah Saeed would certainly written about this in Islam in Australia, but he did not. Nowhere in the book does he say that Islam is older than every Australian religion except indigenous spiritual beliefs. Binksternet (talk) 15:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

He did. First line of the blurb, "Islam reached Australia's shores before Christianity". Check amazon store.

Adjusted proposal:

• Islam is Australia's second-largest religion and has influenced aboriginal culture for a speculated 500 years if not more, predating European arrival by 300 years. It also represents 183 nationalities, as one of Australia's most diverse religions.

Or another compromise please propose some succinct wording for the title sentences that reflects the presence of islamic influence that may have been carried in by the makassar almost 500 years ago.

in Mcintosh: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-9809.1996.tb00692.x

In 1996, a group of Aboriginal dancers from Elcho Island (not Yolngu) in northeast AmhemLand will travel to Macassar (Ujung Pandang), in Indonesia, to perform a ritual associated with the ‘Dreaming’ creation figure, Walitha’walitha, also known as Allah. Aborigines are said to share this ceremony, known as the Wurramu, with the people of Macassar, but the Aboriginal version, a mortuary ritual.The ‘inside’ meaning of the ritual relates to the passage of the soul of the deceased to a heavenly paradise above, the abode of Allah

The ‘Macassans’ would arrive on the coast each December with the trade winds, departing in early April when the winds began to blow from the south-east. Aborigines saw the regular visits of the fishermen as not posing a threat to their rights as landowners and, on this basis Worsley suggests, many people now viewed the heroic times of trade and travel to and from Macassar aboard sailing vessels as a sort of golden era. this is also the case at Elcho Island.’

Detailed descriptions of Yolngu (north-east Arnhem Land Aboriginal) cosmology’ and systems of knowledge’ omit or play down the significance of subjects which are an obvious legacy of the ‘Macassan’ presence. Similarly, historical and archaeological studies have focused on what might be termed ‘hard’ evidence.” Aboriginal perspectives, couched as they are in myth, have received little attention.

In this paper I look at one aspect of this diverse legacy - Islamic references in Yolngu mythology and ritual. The aim is two fold. First, it is to investigate the ways in which aspects of Islam have been creatively adapted by Aborigines. Second, it is to show how a ritual associated with introduced ‘law’ is relevant in terms of reactivating what is perceived to be a historical partnership between peoples long separated by time and circumstance.

Vocabulary of arabic words and arabic style suffix changes. However with different adapted definitions in Yolgnu tongue. [arabic translation in brackets]:

• Bulala - greedy, a double-crosser; [singlular noun/adjective: damn; damned]
• Baluka - robber; [singluar noun: your source of infliction of damnation]
• Balulu - double-crosser, a killer, a bad person; [capital noun: the damnation]
• Bakurra - Grokman, ‘sometimes female’; [noun: infertile women, often menopausal]
• Bawurramu - murderer; [noun: father of injury/pain]
• translations will not be included in the article as I have yet to find a 3rd party

There's also a 6 volume anthropological exploration published in 1907: Volume 3 is the one that I read and have a local copy of.

• Reports of the Cambridge Anthropological Expedition to Torres Straits: https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/catalog/458355

Bro The Man (talk) 16:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Or

• Islam is Australia's second-largest religion and has influenced aboriginal culture via Makassar traders, speculated to have arrived 500 years ago, if not more. Predating European arrival by 300 years. It also represents 183 nationalities, as one of Australia's most diverse religions.

Bro The Man (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• (Open Access): David, Bruno, Paul S.C. Taçon, Jean-Jacques Delannoy, and Jean-Michel Geneste, eds. The Archaeology of Rock Art in Western Arnhem Land, Australia. Vol. 47. ANU Press, 2017. (https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1zgb356) (http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1zgb356)
• P. Stephenson, Islam dreaming : indigenous Muslims in Australia. Sydney: UNSW Press, 2010.
• R. M. (Ronald M. Berndt and C. H. (Catherine H. Berndt, Arnhem Land : its history and its people. Melbourne, Vic: F.W. Cheshire, 1954.

Bro The Man (talk) 19:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

A religion that "reached the shores" by way of seafaring nomads is not a religion that settled on the land, practised by people established in Australia. Don't keep trying to establish Islam as older in Australia. The promotional blurb is not considered reliable—the writer's own words are reliable. Binksternet (talk) 20:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

We achieved a consensus. Thank you for this discussion. I intend, as proposed to revert to the GünniX version. I intend to do so after 24hrs, but I will seek outside advice if more time is appropriate considering that low editor traffic. In the time before the reversion, any edits that are made by users, the executing reverted will retain those edits and apply them where applicable. Future edits of Islam in Australia to will follow along site wide concensus.

Below is a summary of consensus:

• The Makassars "reached the shores" of Australia by way of seafaring.
• Makssar did not settle.
• No evidence of aboriginal muslims.
• Islam is not a settled religion of Australia.
• The first Afghan Muslims came in 1800s with Europeans.
• Islam is not older than every Australian religion except indigenous spiritual beliefs.
• [break]
• [break]

Summary of Discussion Outcome:

• Bloated lead, needs reduction. New shortened lead found at bottom.
• @ binksternet's primary contention: Islam practiced by residents of Australia?
  • Concensus: current discussion was not able to achieve a consensus therefore it cannot be claimed that Islam was practiced by permanent residents of Australia. According to WP:CON
• Reversion to GünniX with application of outcomes from this discussion, and proposed editorial approaches.

Proposed lead:

• Islam in Australia is the second-largest religion, representing 183 nationalities within Australia. According to the 2021 Census in Australia, the combined population of self-identified Muslim Australians, of all schools and branches of Islam, total to 813,392 people, or 3.2% of the total Australian population.
• Indonesian—Makassars Muslims are currently attributed as the earliest recorded contact within the Modern Historical record. Radiocarbon dating studies speculate this has occurred 500 years ago, predating European arrival by 300 years.
• While 30% of Australians are foreign born, Islam is the fastest growing religion in Australia and the World. Growing from 1.7% –2006, up to 2.6% –2016, and now 3.2% as of 2021 census. Converts or "reverts to Islam" are 15.8% of Australian Muslims , according to Cambridge University Press, reflecting a gradual stream of "Westerners picking up Islam".
• Australian Muslims are predominantly Sunni accompanied by a large Shia minority, following a typical Islamic schism, whom both act as umbrellas for all remaining sub-groups and schools of thought. Adherents of Islam represent the majority of the population in Cocos (Keeling) Islands, an external territory of Australia.
• Most Australian Muslims feel that they share a common religious identity, although Australian Muslims are not a monolithic community. They are extremely diverse racially, ethnically, culturally and linguistically. Thus, different Muslim groups within the Australian Muslim community also express parallel non-religious ethnic identities with related non-Muslim counterparts, either within Australia or abroad.

Bro The Man (talk) 21:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That looks like it might work. Try it out, and we'll see how the wording looks in place. Binksternet (talk) 12:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I was in the middle of editing and placing the changes and you deleted my progress. I would like to remind you about the WP:GOODFAITH policy. Bro The Man (talk) 02:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

If you are "the middle of editing" then don't hit Publish. Hit Preview instead, until the wording is what you want. Binksternet (talk) 03:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

why are you using quotation marks?

I put in my edit comment that I was editing the article to apply consensus outcomes. You could have pinged me to check progress.... and could've used that opportunity to teach me. And on the other hand, it was well within your right to ignore that probable assumption of good faith.

I did eventually learn that you can edit a revert on my own... everything I learned in this exchange was in opposition to you. That's disappointing and exhausting. (intended sincerely)

I'm not here to fight, I'm motivated to do good and I seek/prefer collaboration and cooperation.

WP:5 — respect and civility | Wikipedia:Etiquette

I forgive you, and I'm moving on. I want to write about Islamic history in Australia. Bro The Man (talk) 06:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to remove section: Views on Homosexuality

All Abrahamic religions within australia have their fair share to be criticised about on the topic of homosexuality, in fact it is a universal topic of discussion. To keep the same tone as presented in the page Christianity in Australia, i propose the removal of this section as it serves nothing more than to be a lightening rod and generate negative sentiment and division; i.e. a score card to keep track of people to verify whether they are worthy of inclusion or humanity. If people want to find out about muslims and their beliefs on certain subjects such as homosexuality, their are other pages available such as LGBT people in Islam. Bro The Man (talk) 09:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

It is biased that abuses WP:NPOV. This is page is meant to be informative about the Muslim population of Australia and how Islam came to Australia and the population grew and instead it is being used as a platform to attack Muslims and highlight enough incidence of homophobia which has been attributed to Muslims the entire section should not exist on this page but an alternative page and what is written does not account for the full story nor does it account of muslim activists and allyship of the LGBT community. While those things are important topics and should be documented, they should be done so on another page regarding sexuality discourse in australia. Bro The Man (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I've trimmed this material to remove the views of individuals. A problem with this article is that some of its text was added a few years ago by anti-Muslim bigots who had no interest in providing a mainstream account of the topic. This aspect of Islam in Australia seems noteworthy, but it would be better to have more accurate material here if you'd like to add it. Nick-D (talk) 11:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, I appreciate your consideration and action. I agree with you on all your remarks.

Regarding your invitation to populate that section, I would happily agree to do so on a separate page. It is noteworthy but I disagree with the notion that it's a defining highlight.

One thing that's undeniable is that Muslims will defend any and all people's right to life, without exception or prerequisite.

While both the pages of Christianity and Judaism in Australia do not highlight a section for this topic, and I think it's a double standard to do so for muslims. Muslims and their opinions on this topic are spread on a spectrum identical to Christianity and Judaism and every other faith system. As well as on the spectrum of age group generations.

It would be disingenuous to summarise that diversity or pay respect to it with a 300 word excerpt.

Thank you again for making that edit, it's a step forward to peace and harmony. Bro The Man (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Revert to Status Quo Ante

I have taken the step of reverting all edits since 27/9, which I gauge to be the status quo ante version. This is due to persistent edit warring over the past week. I'm also asking[1] for page protection.

By doing this, I take no position on who if anyone is violating WP:3RR. Certainly nobody has put in a request for administrative action (and I'm not doing it at this point).

Nor am I suggesting that all of the changes are invalid. However, it is clear substantial changes to the content are being made and reverted, and that the attempt by @Binksternet and by @Bro The Man to discuss on the talk page has not resulted in anything resembling consensus.

I recognize that this is a big move, and that there may be some intermediate edits that get lost, but I think it's the right thing to do. If someone wants to disagree with me feel free to say so. Oblivy (talk) 05:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)