Talk:Timur

Confusing

The exigencies of Timur's quasi-sovereign position compelled him to have recourse to his formidable patron, whose reappearance on the banks of the Syr Darya created a consternation not easily allayed. The Barlas were taken from Timur and entrusted to a son of Tughluk, along with the rest of Mawarannahr; but he was defeated in battle by the bold warrior he had replaced at the head of a numerically far inferior force.

This paragraph is really confusing - I can't work out the promoun referents at all. Suggest cleaning it up and clarifying things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.19.126.5 (talk) 09:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Wrong map?

The name of the map image used in the article is Timurid Dynasty 821 - 873 (AD).PNG, whereas Timur lived about 500 years later. Is it a wrong map, or is its name incorrect?

83.24.60.54 (talk) 14:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

198.231.23.241 (talk) 21:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC) I believe that the name of the map is incorrect. The area shown in the map matches the main article's description of the lands under Timur's influence at their greatest extent. 198.231.23.241 (talk) 21:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The map is correct, however I believe the caption is confusing. The map is the greatest extent of the Empire before the birth of Timur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.24.27.142 (talk) 02:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The dates are not wrong - the annotation of "(AD)" is - it should be "AH" anno Hegirae (in the year of the Hijra) - which was 622 AD/CE - so add 622 to 821 (1443 AD/CE) and 622 to 873 (1495 AD/CE)

I recommend the filename of the image needs to be changed - the AD to AH. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.247.19 (talk) 01:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

about TURKICness

Seemingly the article has been subject to an edit war between different kind of nationalists considering it say how very Turkic he and his troops were in every single sentence. One time would be more than enough. Just look at the article about other leaders.79.216.232.135 (talk) 20:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The introduction is ridiculously long and contains repeated information, partially misleading infos, and also factual mistakes. A direct translation from the German Wikipedia (which itself is a direct translation of the Encyclopaedia of Islam article) would be much better than the present form. Tājik (talk) 04:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

• I recommend you to state what's misleading. About the Turkicness of Timur, there are more than dozens of cited references used in the article. I'm removing the tag. E104421 (talk) 14:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

• I tried to shorthen the intro by moving some of the paragraphs down. The article still requires a clean-up. E104421 (talk) 00:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I support improvement of this article. Lets see what E104421 can do. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 01:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The question is not his "Turkicness", as "Turkic" is just a linguistic description and - in a historical context - refers to barbarian Central Asian steppe nomads who were distinct from the "civilized" settled populations of Persia, India, China, and Mesopotamia. By that definition, he was very much a "Turk".

However, I suggest to remove the long unsourced reference to his alleged names. First of all, because other important informations are missing. His Persianized self-designation "Gurkani", for example, is attested by his contemporary Rashid al-Din who also explains that its Chinese translation is "fu ma", having exaxctly the same meaning: "son in law". It was the title adopted by Mongol clan chieftains who married into Genghis Khan's family. Many local rulers of his time were known by the title "Gurkani", but he became the most powerful of all. I also suggest to move any refernce to his "Turkicness", "Persianess", "Arabicness" or whatever out of the intro into the main body of the text. Tājik (talk) 03:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I have cleaned up the intro a little bit, removed double links, and wrong wiki-links (Chagatay is a Turkic language, but NOT a dialact of the Oghuz Turkish language that was literally developed 500 years after Timur's death). As for the claim that "Turkic culture floursihed" under his rule, some reliable sources are needed to define "Turkic culture" in this case. Since at that time, "Turkic" was essentially a synonym for "nomadic" and "tribal" life-styles, I do not think that this is not what the author meant with "Turkic culture". Tājik (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

If I may interrupt. Chaghatay was neither a Qipchaq nor an Oghuz Turkic language. It was a Qarluq one.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

well its kinda right but

words like 'turkish' should be changed to 'turkic'. altho turks do not diffrentiate themselves by turkish or turkic(simply Turk), its more appropiate..

turks

well its kinda right but

words like 'turkish' should be changed to 'turkic'. altho turks do not diffrentiate themselves by turkish or turkic(simply Turk), its more appropiate.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.253.1.174 (talk) 00:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

civil

Please use talkpage. I am not sure where Tajik distorted sources for this comment to occur: "rv.: do not distort the sources!)"--Nepaheshgar (talk) 05:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

• Actually, it's Tajik who has to use the talk pages, since his edits do not one-to-one corrresponds to the sources. He simply reduced the status of Turkic to a tribal one. That's the distortion. Regards. E104421 (talk) 02:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I had used the talk page before. The current introduction is too long and contains many minor infos that do not fit in it. Also, there is no need to cite 14 (!) different sources for his Turkic identity, save for the exaggerated and overstretched focus on his "Turkishness" - be it so, I had actually organized all 14 sources into one reference. Also, there is no need to mention 3 times (!) that the Barlas were "Turkic". First of all, because it is misleading (see Manz, Boswoth, and Britannica: only isolated members of this tribe had become Turkic in terms of languages and habits, while others remained Mongols or adopted some other language, religion, or identity), and secondly, because it is totally unecessairy. There is an article Barlas, a simple Wikilink is totally enough.

The entire section about languages and so forth should be removed from the intro. And you, E104421, should not blindly revert and accuse others of something the have not done. I did not distort any sources. The article "Timur" in Encyclopaedia of Islam clearly states that he was a descendant of Mongol conquerors and, even despite his Turkic language and/or identity, was fully aware of it. I also criticize your methods. While you claim that you only revert edits, you actually smuggle once more the word "Turkish" or "Turkic" into a sentence, while removing the fact that many Mongols had also adopted Iranian languages and customs (of which the modern Hazara people are the living proof!) In the section "Early life", you have added the word "Turkic" to a sentence, although it was not there previously, and you have removed the reference to Iranian customs. You simply copied and established the wrong and POV version of an anon IP while you revert the edits of known Wikipedia members. Tājik (talk) 13:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Tajik. The facts are that Timur's root (or as he himself believed) were Mongolian, but was Turkified. The User E104421 then says this means that Timur and his empire were Turkic. At the same time he says that they had adopted Iranian costumes and culture. This means according to E104421's own logic they were Iranian. Any how you all say the same facts but E104421's edits are biased and try to over-promote its Turkicness at the expense of its Mongolian and Iranian connotations, while those of Tajik are more balanced. Try to reach a comcensus. I think it will be easy in this article. Just name the facts without too much interpreation about whther it was Mongolian, Turkic or Iranian.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• There are 14 sources given there including the quatations. The Turkic and Iranian culture related parts were already mentioned in the second paragraph. Tajik is just ignoring them and misrepresenting in order to reduce the status of Turkic to tribesman. Wikipedia edit histories is quite clear, if you check you simly see that his accusations are not correct. Regards. E104421 (talk) 15:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW, if you compare the diffs, you see that Tajik's claim about reverting to an anonymous ip (which is dated 19 december 2008) is wrong. Tajik, you must stop misrepresenting the cases. This is against the policy. Try to edit and discuss yours with a cool head. If you do so, we can reach a consensus. Just try. Regards. E104421 (talk) 15:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what your problem is. The Turkic identity was limited to tribesmen of which Timur and his father were the leaders. Timur's policy was - at least in the beginning - essentially against the urban centers and his rule was marked by the growing influence of nomads. Like Genghis Khan, he and his military expeditions were responsible for the massacre of millions. We have first hand accounts by contemporaries, such as Rashid al-Din (giving an insight into the pre-Timurid Il-Khanate) and ibn Khaldun. Timur definitely identified himself and his tribe as "Turks", and his descendants, such as Baysunqur, even identified Genghis Khan's sons as "Turks". At the same time, they explicitely identified the Ghaznawids and Seljuqs as Persians ("Farsi"), as one can witness in the writings of Alisher Navai. Be it so, there is absolutely no reason why this should be mentioned 5 times in the first 3 paragraphs, and why 14-20 duifferent sources should be mentioned. 2-3 good ones are totally enough. In case of the Barlas, there is no need to call them "Mongols", "Turks", or whatever. The only thing that is important is that he belonged to that tribe - nothing more and nothing less. everything else is explained in detail in the respective article. As for the consensus: I do not think that you are able to reach a consensus. As for the edit: YOU were the one who removed the reference to Iranian languages and customs. Even the version from January 10th contained this information. You removed it without any explanation. This is called POV. Tājik (talk) 17:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• I think you're missing in between edits. I removed the following sentence: "many of whom had embraced Turkish or Iranian languages and customs". As i stated above Turkic & Iranian culture related information was already mentioned in the second introductory paragraph in detail. There is no need for a repetition. That's not a big deal. Regards. E104421 (talk) 19:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

You only removed the part relating to Iranian peoples, while you kept "Turkic" and put it after "Barlas". If three is no need for repetition, then I do not understand why the word "Turkic" is being mentioned so many times?! You have double standards, E104421. Tājik (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• No, you're again missing the previous version. It was previously written as "Barlas, a nomadic Turkish tribe in the steppes of Central Asia", and i changed "[[Turkish]] to [[Turkic peoples|Turkic]]" in that sentence. I just corrected the wikification there. BTW, Persian is written 6 times in the second introductory paragraph. Yes, the article still requires a good job, and maybe this time we do fix it together. Regards. E104421 (talk) 17:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you did a good job in changing Turkich to Turkic.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

That's not correct, E104421. You have "covered up" the edits of an anon IP: [1] The original version was Timur was born in Transoxiana, near Kesh (an area now better known as Shahrisabz, 'the green city,'), some 50 miles south of Samarkand in modern Uzbekistan. His father Taraghay was the head of the Barlas, a nomadic Turkic-speaking tribe in the steppes of Central Asia. They were remnants of the original Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan, many of whom had embraced Turkic or Iranian languages and customs.. That's why I have restored this section. Tājik (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

• Tajik, you're creating artificial problems. Wikipedia edit histories/summaries clearly represents the differences between the edits. As i stated above, there is no need for repeatative arguments/statements. That's the reason of my removal. Regards. E104421 (talk) 00:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The article is once again blocked, by the intro is certainly better than what used to be there previously. Still, I think that this part needs to be removed from the intro and placed somewhere else in the article: Timur's short-lived empire also melded the Turko-Persian tradition in Transoxiania, and in most of the territories which he incorporated into his fiefdom, Persian became the primary language of administration and literary culture (diwan), regardless of ethnicity.[9] In addition, during his reign, some of the greatest contributions to Turkic literature were penned, with Turkic cultural influence expanding and flourishing as a result. A literary form of Chagatai Turkic came into use alongside Persian as both a cultural and an official language.[10] It is too long and is way too much for the intro. I also suggest to take at the German wikipedia who have solved the problem by directly translating the intro of the "Timur" article in Encyclopaedia of Islam. Tājik (talk) 15:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

7-20 million killed by Timur's conquests

See here [2] and here: List of wars and disasters by death toll. This should be included, and considering all the people he killed - the "military genius" comment should be tuned down. Narssarssuaq (talk) 18:42, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Amir Timur's Grave's Curse First Incidence

Tamerlane is buried in the Gur Emir mausoleum in the crypt. Above it, inside the mausoleum his resting place is marked by a single piece of dark, almost black jade. The jade is cleaved and the story goes that Nadir Shah who conquered Samarkand in 1740 wanted to take it back to Persia. He had a dream warning him of the dreadful consequences of such an act, which his advisors and astrologers echoed, reminding him of the tomb’s inscription; “he who disturbs my peace will unleash a scourge more terrible than I”. But like many powerful men before and since, he ignored all advice and instructed his son to take it. The jade crashed to the ground, his son died and thus did Nadir Shah become a victim of Tamerlane’s curse from beyond the grave. See here [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Swashbucklingbuccaneer (talk • contribs) 20:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Great turkic literature.

The intro says- "In addition, during his reign, some of the greatest contributions to Turkic literature were penned, with Turkic cultural influence expanding and flourishing as a result." What this great literature is should be mentioned in the main body of the article.

I'm also making a change in early life section by adding the statement that he was a Muslim to the paragraph arguing about what type of Muslim he was. Nitpyck (talk) 15:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I think people need to consult the times in which Timur lived. The concept of nationalism in the modern sense did not yet exist. It is not correct to tie Timur with a specific modern group in that sense. Timur's army was itself of urban and rural origin and somewhat multiethnic. His motives were partly imperial (to restore the Mongol Empire, even by proxy), partly religious (a Muslim influence was paramount though Jenghiz was of the old religion) and partly to seek glory. The arguements seen here are modern reflections of the controversial man. I wonder if Timur thought of the contraditions himself.Mtloweman (talk) 05:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

'Invade'

... Timur began a trek starting in 1398 to invade the reigning Sultan Nasir-u Din Mehmud....

-- The way this is constructed, it reads as if he invaded a person.

As to Timur being a "national hero" of Uzbekistan: Another bloodthirsty killer honored just because he's famous — as with Stalin in Georgia. Pity poor humankind in its need for such "heroes."

Sca (talk) 19:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Please specify

Please specify where there is POV dispute going on. The template is on the top and looks like the whole article is in NPOV dispute. 75.171.193.36 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC).

I have not seen this page until now. It seems to me that a big POV issue is the lack of information on the true nature of his "conquests". Nothing about cities exterminated to the last baby, towers made of skulls, nothing about cities turned into deserts, nothing about the "100,000" (typically exaggerated figure from the chronicals) Hindu captives massacred on a whim. Zero^talk 04:37, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello there, I am just a passing reader of the article on Timur. I find that the article needs to be cleaned up further for the ease of reading for persons unfamiliar with this subject area. Regarding this issue, I have some comments that I hope would be helpful. (1) I find that the sections a bit disjointed in its entire form at the moment. Throughout the article different terms, e.g. Tartar vs. Turkic vs. of Mongol descent, has been used to describe the military entity under Timur. Similarly different spellings were also used for the same term, emir vs. amir.

(2) I also find that the form/structure/style of written English used in the various sections are disjointed. The introduction is clearly written in basic communicated English, and are thus straightforward and simple to read. But as the article progresses, it feels as if the sections have been cut and pasted from a literary article, adopting a more literary flair in its presentation. In my opinion, Wiki articles should be presented as simple and straightforward as possible, so that the information can be digested by people from different backgrounds and varying degrees of written English comprehension. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.194.219.239 (talk) 06:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Name Forms

I notice the article doesn't reflect the proper Chagatay form which is Temür. The form given here is the Persianised Tīmūr. The Turkic Temür should also be included to reflect his name in its native form Xaghan (talk) 00:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Can user Tajik explain this edit[[4]]? The correct Turkic form is Temür, the persian form may be how its written in Persian script but the script isn't suited for the complex vowel harmony system in Turkic languages and also lengthens the vowel which doesn't exist in its native form. Xaghan (talk) 16:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)