Talk:613 commandments

Explanations

Please explain the title of the article. What is a mitzvot, and what are the other 612+? -- Zoe

OK, will do, I have just started working on it. In the Judaism section there are descriptions of the mitzvot, see link, hope to name the 613 here...Thanks User:IZAK , P.S. By the way, where do I find the "straight" typed line to insert inbeteween names on "User name"...Thanks.

IZAK, do you mean your name? Just type three tildes (~) in a row, and it will automatically enter your logged-in name. -- Zoe

OK, here goes, I'm about to try it ... IZAK

Woe...thanks Zoe ...! IZAK

Ok, here's another question for you: What is "UTC" time and how do I know what it is in relation to where I am ? This is for the settings on the "Preferences" page. Thanks IZAK

See UTC. --Brion

Love converts or love strangers?

Maimonides' mitzvah No 14 is listed as: "To love converts". But this translation is not correct. The bible does not command us to love converts, but to love strangers; it says: "Love ye therefore the stranger; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt" (Dewarim/Deuteronomium 10:19). I do not see how you can translate the Hebrew word 'Geer' by 'convert' in the first part of this sentence and translate exactly the same word as 'stranger' in the second part. Mkatan 23:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Are there really 613 commandments?

This idea is "accepted" by all of Judaism? Not at all. It is unfortunate that popular books on this subject (both medieval and modern) are so selective about quoting classical rabbinic literature. The idea that there are really 613 commandments is vociferously disputed by many classical rabbinic sources. This article should describe the full array of traditional Jewish views on this issue, not just one. I will offer some specific quotes (Mishna, Talmud, Midrash, etc.) with sources this weekend; I have my books at home. RK 21:01, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Rescinded comment in light of final paragraph of section 2.

subset of applicabel mitzwot!?

Hi! is there a list of "140"(?) applicable mitzwot? will you edit them? --217.184.19.141 00:17, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Are there really 613 commandments?

This idea is "accepted" by all of Judaism? Not at all. It is unfortunate that popular books on this subject (both medieval and modern) are so selective about quoting classical rabbinic literature. The idea that there are really 613 commandments is vociferously disputed by many classical rabbinic sources. This article should describe the full array of traditional Jewish views on this issue, not just one. I will offer some specific quotes (Mishna, Talmud, Midrash, etc.) with sources this weekend; I have my books at home. RK 21:01, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Rescinded comment in light of final paragraph of section 2.

FDuffy's intervention

I'm quite unhappy about FDuffy (talk · contribs)'s work on this page. For one thing, there is no source for the JEDPR attribution given for each mitzvah. Furthermore, using the colour coding creates the impression that this attribution is authoratitive, which in my mind is simply an attempt at POV.

I'm not going to revert the large amount of work FDuffy has put into this, but some explanations are called for. JFW | T@lk 10:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking something like this as well. It does seem rather POV: in an article about the Rabbinic canon of mitzvot, not just about 'Pentateuchal law', surely a source-critical approach is not directly relevant. A response from FDuffy would be good, as I see good reason to not have this included on the page, despite the work he may have put in without consultation. --jnothman ^talk 12:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't dispute the need to mention the DH attribution, but:

• There's no source
• The colouring makes it look authoritative, which it is not. JFW | T@lk 21:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm with jnothman; this kind of information, if properly sourced, would be interesting in an article about the DH, but it doesn't belong in an article about the Rabbinic conception of the 613 mitzvot. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

FDuffy has been linking excessively to DH-related Wikisource entries, some of which I removed because they were tangential. Again, the DH is a widely held theory and Wikipedia should not suppress its significance, but the approach taken on this page was inappropriate. JFW | T@lk 02:37, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The source is Richard E. Friedman:"Who wrote the bible" and more particularly Richard E. Friedman:"The bible, with sources revealed", which is considered the definitive work on the matter in academic circles (at least in the UK). The attribution clearly states at the top that it is "according to the documentary hypothesis". The colouring is just meant to aid those who wish to see where and how each of the documentary hypothesis attributions form chunks, it wasn't intended to be strong colouring, and I have tried extensively to make it fainter, but it has to be "web safe" doesn't it, and these are as light as I could find on the list of web safe colours, without making them look the same? --francis 21:20, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Why did you reinstate it just the same before concluding the discussion with others here???? That is rude to those of us here trying to discuss the issue. Consider our arguments that it's simply not relevant here, even if it is on good authority. Still you have not cited that authority in the text of the article. The reason why it stands out too much is because you're highlighting the whole row rather than just the final cell, which is what you should be doing if we collectively decide that this stuff should be in the article at all. --jnothman ^talk 00:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Francis, just get rid of that colour code. It is too much. Please don't expect the reader to agree with the DH. I'm not asking you again. JFW | T@lk 01:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

• One cannot follow "Friedman" rather than Maimonides when discussing Judaism. IZAK 02:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

This is article about how Judaism views the commandments

It is foolish to use a method that goes AGAINST classical Judaism, i.e the "documentary hypothesis", for an article that aims to convey what Judaism teaches in the first place, and not merely what latter-day controversial critical writers think. According to Judaism the Hebrew Bible and its commandments are of Divine origin, so it's plain stupid to teach that the commandments are written by latter-day authors when it has never been the normative view of the Jewish religion for thousands of years. IZAK 02:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone's overplaying his hand. A glance at the history of Ten Commandments will do. JFW | T@lk 12:53, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with IZAK, there is tons of information proving the Ten Commandments could be written by God. New Evidence by Josh McDowell has a rather long chapter devoted to it, very good. Of course, anything by God would be otherworldly, thus not conforming to the documentary hypothesis' belief that religion has to evolve. 70.188.25.34 (talk) 02:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an article called "613 mitzvot"

According to the only rules I can find, articles are only restricted to being about what their title states. This title is not Jewish views of there being 613 commandments.

Clearly all this title specifies is mitzvah and 613. It can therefore be understood as an article concerning the enumeration of the mitzvah, which for various reasons, which need to be expressed in the article, has become fixed as 613.

Including only the enumeration according to Jewish sources violates NPOV policy, particularly considering the relevance of a hypothesis supported by the academic community in a ration of 9:1.

--francis 17:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

At the moment, your color coding is intrusive and less NPOV than the previous version. You have also failed to mention your source, so your whole attribution may well be original research as well as being unverifiable. Please do not reinstate your version until you have dealt with this. I will support color coding of only the collumn in which you link the JEDPR attribution, but not the whole line.

I would be in favour of a color coding that clearly shows whether a mitzvah is a positive or negative one; say - green for mitzvoth aseh and red for mitzvoth lo taaseh. JFW | T@lk 22:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

What about bold vs. underlined+italic, thats quite distinct. Are there formal academic references for general consensus on which of Maimonides commandments are each.

• "613 mitzvot" by definition means the Jewish view! No-one else calls it that! Thus it needs to be described and explained that way first and foremost. Then, as a very minor after-thought one may add what Bible critics or other haters of classical Judaism think of it. By the way, you will notice that normally basically none of the articles in Category:Biblical criticism contain refutations from normative Torah, Talmudical and Halakhic POVs because it's futile (perhaps even not logical) to have a Torah "POV" in them (even though they could well be provided -- it would be like having the Jews' "POV" on every article about Hitler and the Nazis -- or vice-versa) and likewise here it's a joke having a "Documentary hypothesis POV" on what is a virtually purely traditional Judaic topic. Francis you are making less sense by the hour! IZAK 05:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Ask IZAK points out, this article is about the Jewish concept of the 613 commandments, not about Documentary hypothesis of the origins of various books of the Pentateuch. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

In his edit summary (not logged in) Francis maintains that he generated this attribution from numerous sources. In other words, it is original research. Those whole concept is fascinating research but not suitable for Wikipedia. Perhaps Wikisource is the place to be. JFW | T@lk 22:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Biblical critics are not haters of classical Judaism. Calling them that is highly biased. Biblical critics are people who, rather than approaching a biblical subject with blind faith, choose to apply academic rigour. That is all. If this happens to throw up some results that classical Judaism finds distasteful, then this simply how searching for truth works, sometimes you just have to accept that what you believe is wrong, at least in some manner. On other occasions, it happens to throw things up that give you support. But one should always be interested in truth, rather than trying to cobble together faltering supports.

You will notice that normally basically none of the articles in Category:Biblical criticism contain refutations from normative Torah, Talmudical and Halakhic POVs not because it is futile, but because most of the subjects of those articles are general discussions of what Biblical Criticism is, discussions of people who are Biblical critics, or on subjects only relevant to the New Testament of Christianity, and consequently not that relevent to Talmudical POVs. This is an unfortunate side effect of the way that category is currently applied to articles, rather than any evidence of futility. If you think Talmudic, or other rabbinical POVs should be represented in the article, then go and add them. Editing Wikipedia is supposed to be about improving article quality, not complaining about futility.

In my edit summary (logged out by Wikipedia half way through an edit for no known reason) Francis, I.e. me, maintains that he, i.e. I, generated, i.e. researched, this attribution from numerous sources. In other words, it is very carefully researched, and multiply attributed. If this constituted original research, then so would any other article that has more than 2 references, and so we should go and delete those articles right away, leaving wikipedia with about 12 moronic articles, about obscure computer games. The whole concept is fascinating research, which is exactly what perfect Wikipedia articles are meant to aim to be.

The attributions, just in case you aren't completely sure about how well respected they are in the academic community, are

• Richard Elliott Friedman
• Martin Noth

as well as the somewhat less recent

• Jewish Encyclopedia

--Francis 01:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It remains "original research" until you actually cite your sources, so we can verify whether these attributions are made by the actual authors, or whether there has still been extrapolation on your behalf. I strongly urge you to stop reverting - consensus here seems to be against you. I know, you've worked hard on it, but there are too many problems with your version. JFW | T@lk 07:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why, but you seem to have failed to notice that above, I gave the sources. I will repeat them again:

• Richard Elliott Friedman
• Martin Noth

as well as the somewhat less recent

• Jewish Encyclopedia

--User talk:FDuffy 14:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I have explained on your talkpage that you should mention those sources with title of the work, page numbers etc on the article page, not here. A good encyclopedia article lists its sources, just look at that Jewish Encyclopedia!

You have again not addressed my opposition to your use of color coding. The fact that it wasn't meant to be intrusive does not mean it doesn't come accross as such. I'll reiterate: I will support the tabled format if you limit the color code to the collumn that assigns the JEDPR attribution.

I note that the documentary hypothesis nowhere specifically addresses mitzvot given in groups. It only addresses fragments of text. This makes your application of the DH to this list of commandments a piece of original research. I will not press this matter, however. JFW | T@lk 22:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

PS The color code is completely unnecessary if you consider that the commandments on this page are not listed according to the order of the verses.

Realistically, the DH is heavily interested in which bits of Mosaic law came from where, as well as which bits of narrative. So it's not so strange to be trying to apply the DH to legalistic portions of the Torah, but to apply it to the Mitzvot as enumerated by Maimonides is a little stranger. jnothman ^talk 00:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

A comment

I changed number 160 from: "not to have sexual relationships with a married woman" to "Not to have sexual relations with someone else's wife", which better fits the original: "And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. " andreas_td 03:50, 25 feb 2006 (UTC+2)

Seeing as this listing is according to Maimonides, it is to that source that the article should be faithful. I don't have a copy with me. jnothman ^talk 11:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Move the list

The Maimonides' list is rather long. Perhaps it should be given its own page in order to cut down on the length of this page.

I disagree. The 613 mitzvot is the title and whole point of this page. It seems to me that [613 mitzvot] and [list of all 613 mitzvas] will soon be candidates for merging. Perhaps it could be put at the very end of the article so that people who don't want to read the (613 item long) list. However, if general consensus is for your idea, I don't object. Epl18 17:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this should be on Wikisource, or at least the list of the 613. See Template:Move to Wikisource. -Reuvenk_[T][C] 00:34, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

line

User:Keycard added the line

It is rumoured that if a pomegranite contains exactly 613 seeds, this will indicate that the Messiah is coming.

with the comment (I can't provide a direct source. it's common knowledge amongst Jewish people). I removed because I have never heard of it and it sound line a a jewish Urban legend, however, I would love to see a legitamate source for this. Jon513 17:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

FYI: About 35 years ago I counted them and there were exactly 613 Phil burnstein (talk) 13:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Phil, welcome to the project. I think you might find this informal study about the amount of seeds in pomegranates of different origins interesting. Irregardless of the true amount of pomegranate seeds, the idea that it contains 613 probably originates with the Rosh Hashana custom to eat a pomegranate and ask God to "increase on merits like a pomegranate"; Nevertheless I have not been able to find a source with says this. Jon513 (talk) 17:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Prohibition of sex with daughter

The article as it stands now quotes Lev. 18:10 as the source for the prohibition "Not to have sexual relations with your daughter". But there is no specific rule against incest with daughters in Torah that I know of. Lev. 18:10 is about sex with granddaughters only and does not mention daughters. My understanding is that Maimonides derived the prohibition of sex with a daughter from this granddaughter clause. You have to be pretty depraved to interpret the absence of a specific prohibition as a permission for a father to have sex with his daughter, but amazingly this lack of an mention of daughters was quoted as a defense in a recent case of incest in a fundamentalist Christian family in the Netherlands: "if G-d felt sex with a daughter was wrong he would have told us so". The argument is not only perverse but clearly wrong because there is a general prohibition of incest in Torah: the long list of relatives not to be approached in Lev. 18:7-17 is preceded in Lev. 18:6 by a prohibition of having sex with any "close relative", and that of course includes daughters. I therefore feel that the article should quote Lev. 18:6 rather than, or in addition to, Lev. 18:10 when referring to the prohibition of sex with a daughter.

Your thoughts on this are appreciated

Mkatan 12:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The prohibition of sex with ones daughter is, as you said, derived from the granddaughter clause. The general prohibition of incest is not used as it is unclear what incest is until the verses list all of the types of incest. Jon513 16:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There're 613 dead links

Every and each one of the reference links are dead (actually, you get a 'Invalid source given.' error). This needs fixing. --Wishmechaos 07:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems that biblegateway (one which bibleverse relies) removed machon mamre as a source. I contact jnothman who created this template. Jon513 16:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

365 days?

Introduction, second paragraph: "According to tradition, of these 613 commandments, 248 are mitzvot aseh ("positive commandments" commands to perform certain actions) and 365 are mitzvot lo taaseh ("negative commandments" commands to abstain from certain actions). Three-hundred and sixty-five corresponded to the number of days in a year and 248 was believed by ancient Hebrews to be the number of bones and significant organs in the human body."

The Jewish calander is lunar, and therefore, only 354 days a year, with a 7 leap months every 19 years. If no source can be found for this paragraph, it should be removed, since 365 days in the year could not possibly be the reason for 365 "negative commandments" Chaztheweird 17:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The Jewish calendar is "modified solar", which is to say, months are measured by the moon, but years are measured by the sun, resulting in a 13th month 7 times in a 19 year cycle. Judaism recognizes the fact that the orbit of the earth is ~365 days. This passage is indeed correct. -- Y not? 22:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

My request for a citation was reverted [1]. If there are indeed "countless" sources for these numbers, then there should be no trouble to cite one. MilesAgain (talk) 19:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I put in two refs. However, within Jewish studies this info is taken for granted and would not be footnoted in a tertiary work at all. Thanks. HG | Talk 19:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. As a member of "the general audience" it seemed more than a little like numerological piffle. MilesAgain (talk) 19:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Featured list drive?

Hi, I'm one of the members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Recently we helped improve an article about Palestinian culture for good article candidacy. It looks like this page isn't far from a featured list candidate - the main list is already complete and well referenced. Some suggestions:

• Add citations for the introductory paragraphs.
• Create stub articles for the redlinks in the introduction.
• Select one or more images to accompany the page. I've found some candidate images here.
• Copyedit - I can help with that.

If there are no objections lets move forward. Regards, Durova^Charge! 20:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

• Durova: Hi. I object simply because you are not telling people why you have decided upon this now. I do not wish to drag out the discussions with multiple postings, but this is what I have said so far to you at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#613 Mitzvot and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Featured list drive?. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 08:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I withdraw the suggestion. Durova^Charge! 08:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Thank you, much appreciated. Maybe next time. IZAK (talk) 10:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Maimonidies list

Maimonidies' list of 613 is broken up into two lists, positive and negative, which makes it quite difficult to shuffle them back together, so if someone could let me know how they did this efficiently, please do. Secondly, who put this together? It's incorrect. For example, as listed in the count of the mitzvos as an introduction to Maimonidies' Mishneh Torah, negative commandment #5 is listed as "Do not bow to idols, even if this is not the normal way to worship said idols," wheras the listing here puts #5 (counting negatives #2, 7, 8, 10 + 15) as "Do not hate fellow Jews." Similarly, the introduction to the Mishneh Torah indicates that negative commandment #365 (the last of the negative commandments, although not indicating where in the 613 this would lie) is "The king may not increase his gold and silver beyond the limit," whatever limit that may be, whereas the listing here puts #613 as the last negative commandment, indicating it is the negative commandment of selling the woman captured in wartime (eishas yifas to'ar) into servitude after being intimate with her (rather, she must be set free). I think this list needs to be rewritten, and perhaps from the Sefer Hachinuch, so that the order is consistant with the order of the verses in the Torah and that's the order that is most often referenced. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 05:00, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I will begin a new ordered list according to the Sefer Hachinuch. I think it would be best presented listed according to the parsha whithin which it lies (as listed by the Sefer Hachinuch) followed by the verse in which it is found and together with a short explanation or description, expecially for those that are not clear or intutive. I think it best remains here until it is at least completed to 613, at which time it can be moved to the article and the other additions can be made there. Please feel free to assist! DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 17:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Bereishit

1: Produce offspring

Lech Lecha

2: Circumcision

Vayishlach

3: Not to eat the gid hanasheh

Bo

4: Blessing of the new moon

5: Slaughtering the Passover offering

6: Eating of the Passover offering

7: Not to eat the Passover offering when undercooked or boiled

8: Not to allow any of the Passover offering to remain past its time

9: Removal of chametz from one's possession

10: Eating of matzah

11: Not to find chametz in ones domain on Passover

12: Not to eat anything that contains chametz

13: Not to give of the Passover offering to a Jewish apostate

14: Not to give of the Passover offering to a partial convert or to a non-Jewish resident of the Land of Israel

15: Not to remove meat of the Passover offering outside one's home

16: Not to break any bone of the Passover offering

17: Not to eat of the Passover offering if one is uncircumcised

18: Sanctification of firstborn animals in the Land of Israel

19: Not to eat chametz on Passover

20: Not to see chametz on Passover

21: Telling over of the story of the Exodus from Egypt

22: Redeedming of the firstborn donkey

23: Beheading of the firstborn donkey if not redeemed

Beshallach

24: Not to leave the city limits on Shabbos

Yitro

25: Belief in the existence of God

26: Not to believe in any other gods

27: Not to make an idol

28: Not to bow down in foreign worship

29: Not to worship idols in their customary manner

30: Not to swear in vain

31: Sactification of Shabbos with words

32: Not to perform forbidden acts on Shabbos

33: To give honor to one's mother and father

34: Not to kill an innocent individual

35: Not to be intimate with another man's wife

36: Not to kidnap

37: Not to give false testimony

38: Not to desire what belongs to someone else

39: Not to make carved human images, even for decoration

40: Not to build an alter with hewn stones

41: Not to take wide steps on the alter (Ex. 20:23.)

Mishpatim

42: To purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance with the prescribed laws. (Ex. 21:2.)

43: To betroth the Jewish maidservant. (Ex. 21:8.)

44: To redeem Jewish maidservants. (Ex. 21:8.)

45: The master must not sell his Jewish maidservant. (Ex. 21:8.)

46: Not to withhold food, clothing, or sexual relations from one's wife. (Ex. 21:10.)

47: The courts must execute by strangulation those who deserve it. (Ex. 21:12.)

48: Not to strike one's father or mother. (Ex. 21:15.)

49: The court must implement laws against the one who assaults another or damages another's property. (Ex. 21:18–19.)

50: The court must carry out the death penalty of the sword. (Ex. 21:20.)

51: The court must judge the damages incurred by a goring ox. (Ex. 21:28.)

52: Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned. (Ex. 21:28.)

53: The court must judge the damages incurred by a pit. (Ex. 21:33.)

54: The court must implement punitive measures against the thief. (Ex. 21:37.)

55: The court must judge the damages incurred by an animal eating. (Ex. 22:4.)

56: The court must judge the damages incurred by fire. (Ex. 22:5.)

57: The courts must carry out the laws of an unpaid guard. (Ex. 22:6.)

58: The courts must carry out the laws of the plaintiff, admitter, or denier. (Ex. 22:8.)

59: The courts must carry out the laws of a hired worker and hired guard. (Ex. 22:9.)

60: The courts must carry out the laws of a borrower. (Ex. 22:13.)

61: The court must fine one who seduces a maiden. (Ex. 22:15–16.)

62: The court must not let the sorcerer live. (Ex. 22:17.)

63: Not to insult or harm a sincere convert with words. (Ex. 22:20.)

64: Not to cheat a sincere convert monetarily. (Ex. 22:20.)

65: Not to afflict any orphan or widow. (Ex. 22:21.)

66: To lend to the poor and destitute. (Ex. 22:24.)

67: Not to press them for payment if you know they don't have it.(Ex. 22:24.)

68: Not to intermediate in an interest loan, guarantee, witness, or write the promissory note (Ex. 22:24.)

69: Not to curse judges.. (Ex. 22:27.)

70: Not to blaspheme. (Ex. 22:27.)

71: Not to curse the head of state or leader of the Sanhedrin. (Ex. 22:27.)

72: Not to preface one tithe to the next, but separate them in their proper order. (Ex. 22:28.)

73: Not to eat meat of an animal that was mortally wounded (Ex. 22:30.)

74: Judges must not accept testimony unless both parties are present. (Ex. 23:1.)

75: Transgressors must not testify. (Ex. 23:1.)

76: The court must not execute through a majority of one; at least a majority of two is required. (Ex. 23:2.)

77: A judge who presented an acquittal plea must not present an argument for conviction in capital cases. (Ex. 23:2.)

78: To decide by majority in case of disagreementv (Ex. 23:2.)

79: Not to pity a poor man in judgment. (Ex. 23:3.)

80: To help another remove the load from a beast which can no longer carry it. (Ex. 23:5.)

81: A judge must not decide unjustly the case of the habitual transgressor. (Ex. 23:6.)

82: The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence. (Ex. 23:7.)

83: Judges must not accept bribes. (Ex. 23:8.)

84: To leave free all produce that grew in the Sabbatical year. (Ex. 23:11.)

85: To rest on the seventh day. (Ex. 23:12.)

86: Not to swear in the name of an idol. (Ex. 23:13.)

87: Not to turn Israelites to idolatry. (Ex. 23:13.)

88: To celebrate on the three Festivals of Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot. (Ex. 23:14.)

89: Not to slaughter the Passover lamb while in possession of leaven. (Ex. 23:18.)

90: Not to leave the fat overnight. (Ex. 23:18.)

91: To set aside the first fruits and bring them to the Temple. (Ex. 23:19.)

92: Not to eat meat and milk cooked together. (Ex. 23:19.)

93: Not to make any treaty with the seven nations to be extirpated, or with any idol worshiper. (Ex. 23:32.)

94: Not to let them dwell in our land. (Ex. 23:33.)

If you see all of the article on the parsha the mitzvot in each parsha is listed. A list of the parsha articles can be found at Weekly Torah portion. Jon513 (talk) 00:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 19:12, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

If you don't mind my saying so, the current set up has been there for a while and it would be appropriate, since you'd like to change it, to call for a discussion. Perhaps we could look at several different options (arrangements) and have a conversation, maybe notify the WikiProject, too. I think it's premature to switch to Sefer ha-Chinuch. We should also clarify the source of the current list, too. Anyway, I'd think the Rambam arrangement is the most common for our readership and most prevalent among the sources. Thanks muchly, HG | Talk 03:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with User HG (talk · contribs). Also to use the Sefer Hachinuch alone is a mistake because Maimonides is a greater universally regarded authority. IZAK (talk) 09:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Quote User HG. There is of course a lot of saying, discussing and maybe arguing on this issue, but the Rambam edition seems to me quite well established in the common Jewish practice, and I for one would be at a loss if dropped in a different listing. Moreover, would find it strange to create a hierarchy between two cornerstones of Jewish faith - would it not be wise to house in the article the two listings? and, probably, more educational and interesting?--UbUb (talk) 16:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi UbUb: There is no end to the amount of ways the 613 Mitzvot, or any grouping of laws and information, can be organized: By those relating to "bein adam lachaveiro" ("person to person") vs "adam lamakom" ("Man to God"); or between those that deal with everyday life and mundane events vs ones that are about holy days and holy actions; or any of the ways that the Mishnah subdivides them following the order of the six sedorim ("orders"). Thus after all is said and done, all the tampering may ruin it. The problem with having two listings of the same information is that although you and I may not mind having (at least) two ways of listing the same Mitzvot, at some point in the future another set of editors will no doubt arise, and having not much else to do will decide that having two lists of the same facts is redundant and therefore one of them should go, which would then bring us full circle to having only one list. IZAK (talk) 07:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The Chinuch says, just before his listing of the mitzvot, that his list is identical to the Rambam's list. The only difference is that his list is in a different order. Phil Burnstein (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

the Rambam arrangement is the most common for our readership If 'our readership' is defined as scholars, you might be right. I believe that most of our readership consists of people who don't read Hebrew, and as such they are much more familiar withe the bible. Phil Burnstein (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I think having both lists is valueable, but this article has only room for one. I think that DRosenbach's list should be put into another article (List of ...) and this article should reference it. I also think that another article's list should conform to the Sefer HaMitzvot. I will be glad to help. Phil Burnstein (talk) 11:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Worth dying before committing

Every single law is worth dying over before committing. What type of Jew is so lax in their profession to believe that certain laws aren't worth dying before breaking? ICXC 70.188.25.34 (talk) 02:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

At a time when the Jews are being persecuted for their religious beliefs, (as opposed to the Nazis) you are absolutely correct. At other times, saving a human life takes precedence over most laws. Phil Burnstein (talk) 16:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Bug in template that shows Hebrew verse and English translation

There is a bug in the Bibleverse template. When we put in ({{Bibleverse||Ex.|20:3.|HE}}) it shows (Ex. 20:3.) as it should. However, if you click on that link, it will show you verse 4, which is verse 3 on Machon-Mamre.org.
Verse 3 in the Ashkenazi and Sephardi tradition is Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.. In the Yemenite tradition those words are part of verse 2, and verse 3 is Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image,...

Note that this only effects the Ten Commanedments. Phil Burnstein (talk) 11:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What do these cites refer to?

Our Editor says that there are two citations needed in the following paragraph.

Sefer Hamitzvot ("Book of Commandments") by Maimonides, with a critical commentary by Nachmanides.[citation needed] Maimonides employs a set of fourteen rules (shorashim) which determine inclusion into the list. In this work, he supports his specification of each Mitzvah through quotations from the midrash halakha and the Gemara. Nachmanides makes a number of critical points and replaces some items of the list with others.[citation needed]

I'm having trouble understanding exactly what facts our Editor is referring to. Phil_burnstein (talk) 11:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Probably they want a link for the book in the first one, and page number(s) for the second. You shouldn't say someone said something (i.e. "critical points") without cited where they said it. 71.155.237.130 (talk) 17:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

613 is the magic number, yes it is, it's the magic number

Quote: The Talmud notes that the Hebrew numerical value (gematria) of the word "Torah" is 611, and combining Moses's 611 commandments with the two received directly from God adds up to 613.

Unfortunately I was sick a lot during Sunday school, but I thought that Moses received 10 commandments directly from god, not 2 directly and 611 indirectly. I've also read elsewhere that the 613 adds up from the ten commandments plus 603 (and I'd like to know what the basis for the number 603 is). Thanks, Maikel (talk) 14:24, 19 February 2009 (UTC) the gemara is speaking of the the jewish tradition that when god was giving the ten commandments to the jewish people, thye were so terrified and so awed that after two commandments (in some versions first god said all ten commandments simoultaniously in a manner that they could not understand and than went back and started explaining them in which case this would be the second commandment of the explanation they asked mosheh (moses) to act as an intermediary so they would not have to listen directly to god anymore which they feared would kill them, the other 611 commandments were given to the jewish people indirectly through moses as an intermidiary. the term ten commandments is actually a mistranslation, the hebrew word dibrah litterally translates as "spoken statement", but the ten spoken statements doesent make a good movie title :-) there are far more commandments in the torah than those teng.j.g (talk) 19:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Cherem

Mitzvot 231-233 have references to cherem, which I find unclear. Can someone explain? Peter Chastain (talk) 09:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Human shaped decorations?

31. Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes Ex. 20:20

I'm not very knowledgeable about this, but how is that derived form the cited verse? 71.155.237.130 (talk) 17:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Mitzvot 45

Just scrolling through these I realized #45 is definitely not correct. Someone with more knowledge about the Mitzvots should take a look at this one. 70.59.62.59 (talk) 22:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Why do you say that #45 is not correct? Rebele | Talk ^{The only way to win the game is to not play the game.} 04:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Corrected bug in Ex. 20

I fixed it in Mitzva #2. If there is no objection, I will fix the rest of chapter 20. It would be nice to use the Torah in wikisourse instead of Machon Mamre, but I don't know enough php to change the bibleverse template. Rebele | Talk ^{The only way to win the game is to not play the game.} 23:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Wrong Pesukim?

I wrote a program to put the mitzvot in biblical order in order to make a "list of". I find that they do not come out in the same order as the sefer hachinuch. The reason is that the chinuch occasionally chooses a different verse than we do. For example, the article on bris mila lists two different verses. Our list chose one, the chinuch chose the other.

I wpuld like to change our choice of verses to correspond to the chinuch's. Does anyone agree or disagree? Rebele | Talk ^{The only way to win the game is to not play the game.} 05:29, 18 October 2010 (UTC)