Talk:Delian League

Comments

This article is written poorly, I believe. Perhaps it is just my view, but it sounds like a high school history paper, and the citations are about as plentiful. Not a very good piece of work for a wiki, I have to say.

---

Uh, why is this article almost completely sourceless? The whole second half has no sources at all. Deletion (talk) 04:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

---

who said the epigram at the first? Other than that, VERY nice. --MichaelTinkler

---

I have to take credit for that, unfortunatly :) Yea, it should probably go, but it kept me motivated :) --Dlamming

I think it's inaccurate. It's entirely like a modern civilization, democracies filled with enlightened philosophers included.

How come this is at Athenian Empire, rather than Delian League? I know they are basically interchangeable, but isn't Delian League the "proper" term? Adam Bishop 18:15, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Looks like an accident of WP history - the oldest version starts off with the shocking news that the democratic Athenians were also nasty imperialists, so the titling was presumably to make a political point. I would say to move it to Delian League, just because OCD does it that way. :-) Be sure to delete Delian League first so we can do a history-preserving move. Stan 18:52, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm. At first I was surprised to see an article named "Athenian Emmpire". First of all, the use of the term "empire" is an anachronism, as it was used by the Romans ("Imperium") about 300 years later. Besides that, the city-state members of the Delian League (or "Athenian Alliance" as it is known after the transfer of the treasury of the alliance from Delos to Athens) were not considered Athens' territory. They were just under (very) heavy influence of the Athenian political system. Therefore, I think that the term "Empire" is completely irrelevant.--Potmos 10:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Many classical scholars apparently favor the term though - in the OCD under "Delian League" they say "'Athenian empire' might be a better title for this article, but not all students of imperialism admit that Athens had an empire in the full sense", and their article uses "empire" and "imperial" in several places. I'm going to cast my lot with the experts. On anachronism, see empire. Stan 13:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

---

The last paragraph gives two oppposite impressions. On first reading, it suggests the Athenian Empire lasted only 27 years and was plagued by revolts, the opposite of stable. On second reading, it emphasizes that the empire endured despite this: very stable. --24.5.247.250

This is a wiki, is it not?

To the anon IPs, and registered accounts likewise, who are commenting on the lack of sources and poor quality of the article: this is Wikipedia; the encyclopaedia anyone can edit. Register an account if you don't already have one, and start improving things instead of being an armchair critic. Coldmachine^Talk 09:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Look up the term Arche. One of it's meanings is to rule. In Athenian documents starting in the 440's it is used instead of symmachia (allied with). It is, basically, a change from 'Athens and the allies' to 'Athens and the cities under her rule'. IE: It does mean empire/imperium. — [Unsigned comment added by 99.235.231.148 (talk • contribs).]

League v. Empire

The Delian League grows into the Athenian Empire. While the Athenian Empire can always be called the Delian League, the League is not always the Empire, this refers especially to the early League but also to states (such as the cities of Lesbos) that were part of the League but still autonomous from Athens and not an intergrated part of the Empire of the Athenians as they did not pay tribute but perserved a more normal basis of Alliance. [Unknown author]

• This article should be entitled the Athenian Empire OR there should be a separate article for the Athenian Empire. There are separate considerations for both the League and the Empire which lasts until its defeat by Sparta in 404 BCE. Whoever reverted the Athenian Empire article to the Delian League did a genuine injustice to its historical documentation, apparently out of a lack of knowledge. The Athenian Empire undergoes a number of changes and has a larger impact that can not be faithfully documented here without altering the nature of the current article on the Delian League, including the fact that the Delian League becomes a number of subjugated city-states rather than willing participants. That by itself is one of the definitions of "Empire". There is a large substantiation for this, as the "alliance" city-states were either paying taxes to Athens or paying tribute (The Athenian Tribute Lists) to Athens of which there is extensive documentation. Furthermore, by accounting for this "grouping" as a league and not an Empire, the economic undertones that supported its formation cannot be included here, in spite of its central importance to the rise of power of Athens. At the demise of the Athenian Empire which survived several different wars, it is questionable if there still is a Delian League, since much of Athens control over Greece and the Aegean has eroded. In any case, you will find scholarly books on both topics, the Athenian Empire and the Delian League, in any firstclass library - hence this article should be split...

Stevenmitchell 02:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• This article should be at Delian League, which is clearly the subject of 2/3 of it. I see no great advantage to a split, especially since 454 is a convential line. The League was always the formal basis of the alliance, until Athens released her allies in 404. Septentrionalis 06:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that there's consensus to move this article to Athenian Empire, so I'm removing the listing at WP:RM. Please let me know if there needs to be a page move after all. -GTBacchus^(talk) 08:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Non-English Map

Exaclty why is the map of the Delian League not in English? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.62.134.131 (talk) 00:07, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Yes this is what confussed me, I am searching for a english version now and I am going to put the link up on here. METALFREAK04 (talk) 12:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just sorted this. (Or should I say, je viens de régler ça...) Eric B 19:14, 28 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericbateson (talk • contribs)

Fantastic! Looks good now. Coldmachine^Talk 07:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Timeline?

Anybody object to my shuffling some things around so it's in chronological order?Ifnkovhg (talk) 04:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

League or Alliance?

The Origins and the Nature of the Athenian Alliance of 478/7 B. C. by N. G. L. Hammond Source: The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 87, (1967), pp. 41-61 says AOrYvatlo Kal o aO vityuaxo (which is the best I can do for the Greek) does not mean League. And what is the difference between the Delian League and the Athenian Alliance? And, was it formed for the Siege of Byzantium, or as a result of it? Thanks--Doug Weller (talk) 10:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Reopening of the Athenian Empire Issue

Since this article is now reduced to a grammar school version, in keeping with the limited adolescent contributions to its entry...

Just a quick perusal over the internet alludes to the dismantling of the Athenian Empire in 404 BCE [1] and [2]. There are probably 200 books written on the Athenian Empire.

Some of the leading ancient historians with entries on Wikipedia and titles of some of their works pertaining to the Athenian Empire are:

• Russell Meiggs The Athenian Empire (1972)
• P.J. Rhodes The Athenian Empire, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1985.
• Malcolm Francis McGregor, The Athenians and Their Empire, 1987
• Moses Finley The Ancient Economy, 1973
• John V. A. Fine, The Ancient Greeks. A Critical History, 2003
• Polly Low, The Athenian Empire, September, 2008, 384 pp., ISBN:978-0-7486-2585-7 Edinburgh University Press

Stevenmitchell (talk) 09:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The distinction between the Athenian Empire and the Delian League is a subtle but important one. The Athenian Empire is the state of affairs that existed between Athens and its subject states, whose effects can be seen in (inter alia) the Athenian Coinage Decree, the Erythrae Decree, the collection of tribute and the transfer of the Delian League treasury to Athens. Not to mention its sparking the Peloponnesian War.

The Delian League is the organization by which Athens was gradually able to amass its empire. Initially to guard against further Persian aggression, the League members agreed to fund a navy. Unfortunately, members could choose between supplying ships and crew or simply supplying money to support same. As more and more members opted for cash payments instead of service, more and more of the navy was kept up and thus controlled by Athens (which had been the largest contributor to begin with). The league thus became a de facto Athenian navy which could be used to pursue strictly Athenian goals. Excess tribute was then increasingly used solely for the benefit of Athens (e.g., the construction of the Parthenon).

I would argue that the Athenian Empire definitely warrants its own article, as its existence drove the history of 5th-century Greece. The Delian League could be a section of this article, or its own smaller entity. In any event, I think a Delian League section or article should focus as tightly as possible on the league's formation and the mechanics/logistics of its operation.

Part of the problem, I suppose, is that the league by necessity predated the empire, and dating the "birth" of the Athenian Empire is a matter of taste. Does it begin at Thasos? Naxos? The transfer of the treasury to Athens? Ifnkovhg (talk) 01:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

P.S. providing the Greek translation Δηλιακή συμμαχία is anachronistic, as the term "Delian League" is a modern invention. None of the ancient sources use it. Ifnkovhg (talk) 01:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

It says the Spartans refused to get involved in a war against Athens, and this made them enemies of Athens later on? What?

• She(revolting nation) called to Sparta for assistance but was denied.
• An aftermath of the war was that relations between Athens and Sparta turned into hostility.

She asks the Spartans to help when they revolted against Athens/the league(same thing at this point), and they refused. It says because of the war which Spartans stayed out of, and had nothing to do with, Spartans and Athens became hostile towards each other. Something else going on which isn't in the article yet? Dream Focus 18:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Thassos was never part of Sparta or allied with it in any way. The conflict between Athens and Sparta came later on, but not because of this action. How could Athens going to put down a rebellious group from their league, which had absolutely nothing to do with Sparta, cause them to become hostile towards each other? Wasn't it caused by other things instead? Dream Focus 19:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Here we go again.

Guys, the term "Delian League" is a modern invention. "The Athenians and their allies" is NOT the "name" given to the League by ancient sources. The League had no name. The phrase "the Athenians and their allies" merely indicates that what we now call the Delian League was an alliance led by Athens. Please, STOP giving an ancient equivalent for the term "Delian League" -- there simply isn't one. I have a PhD in the field; please trust me on this. Ifnkovhg (talk) 02:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, there wasn't a specific term (a "name") to refer to the Delian League, but. Like every other existing and known phenomenon, it was referred to, and and the way it was referred to should be indicated - that's basic information that the reader is always interested in. Since it was referred to by means of various descriptive phrases instead of a name, the most common phrase(s) should be indicated.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

And note, if people keep wanting to insert something into the article, it may be useful to think why they're doing this and whether there might be something wrong with the article as well, rather than just with the people. What people have been reacting to is that it's just abnormal to have a historical phenomenon and not to have an explanation of the way it is/was referred to by its contemporaries. By all means do specify that the phrases used to refer to it weren't names, but don't leave the article without any information about ancient ways of reference at all.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 19:58, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Amphipolis founded in 465?

Amphipolis was founded in 437/6 under the Athenian general Hagnon (Thuc. I. 100, IV. 102). Athens made an attempt to found a colony at Ennea Hodoi (near Amphipolis) c.465, but this proved unsuccessful and is known as the disaster at Drabescus (Thuc. I. 100). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.235.231.148 (talk) 05:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

the Ionian cities were originally Athenian colonies? This just can't be right... Granted the Athenians had Ionian connections, but I'm quite certain they did not found every Ionian city in Asia Minor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.235.231.148 (talk) 08:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Holland?

There are several references to a book (?) by one "Holland". A title etc may be useful. 82.170.163.136 (talk) 16:59, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The lack of information is certain not helpful. It seems to have been added in May 2009 by MinisterForBadTimes (talk · contribs) so I've asked if they can elaborate, but they haven't edited since November. Nev1 (talk) 17:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It very much seems to tie up with this book by Tom Holland. SpinningSpark 17:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I an mot sure whether Tom Holland (who is not a professional historian) can rank as a source of reliable source of information.82.170.163.136 (talk) 23:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)