Talk:Robert B. Spencer

Archives:

• x Archive on Spencer & the Christian-Islamic Forum
• 1 Archive from December 30, 2005, Primarily on NPOV
• 2 Archive from October 16, 2006, Primarily on criticism

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Vanity cleanup

I have removed large sections of this article, and rewritten, hastily, bits of it. It's still messy, poorly referenced, and could use a lot of work - but it looks a little bit less like a vanity page written "by me, about me". Anyhow, what I did, and why I did it:

• Archived and un-messied this page.
• Rewrote the intro. Citing his own website on the matter of his being a researcher is not good enough.
• Removed book review tidbits, positive and negative. Irrelevant to the article - it is about him, not his books.
• Removed or rewrote lots of weasel wording.
• Added some "citation needed" tags to uncited claims.
• Removed a ton of uncited quotes and praise that were tagged as such from before.
• Removed a ton of "information" cited from his own website.

...and then some. --TVPR 12:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you read any of the previous discussion, you would find how this evolved. I notice you added some information, too. (by user:AnneCr on 18:46, 16 October 2006)

First off, I did read any of the previous discussion, which was messily organized, if at all. I also noticed this is the only WP article you've ever been involved with, your first contrib ever regarding "fixing vandalism" on this article again. Yes, I'm blatantly calling you a sockpuppet. Also, "see talk before removing info" and then not presenting any new points isn't helping your cause, ie. keeping this vanity article a vanity article. --TVPR 08:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC) (PS: Please sign your comments in the future, as has been pointed out to you before by others)

What do you mean you are calling me a "sock puppet?" Did you notice how many people were involved in a back and forth discussion of what should be here? How could this possibly be a vanity artricle? I notice that you do not find it necessary to treat others with respect, and feel free to lecture people on how they ought to contribute at Wikipedia, as well as to speak with absolute athority on how articles ought to be written.Is there some reason for this?14:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)AnneCr 14:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC) Why do I have to present new points by the way? Why don't you answer the old ones?AnneCr 14:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems quite silly to ask for citations for basic statements of fact. Spencer announces from time to time that he is on radio or tv, and program listings at the time confirm it. Are you suggesting that he does not write articles, that his life as a public figure is a fantasy? How many publications and programmes must be cited here to back up his claim that "his work has appeared in a number of publications" ?AnneCr 03:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Argh! My last post disappeared... Anyway. The point is that WP policy, however cumbersome it may be, demands citations for more or less anything. Another point is that a biography - or any other part of a biographical article - should not list every single public statement from a person, be it newspaper article or radio appearance. Doing so makes the article look like a vanity article which the subject has written about himself to make him look "serious". Also, citing articles, biographies et cetera in heavily biased outlets is just plain silly. If you have a look at the Osama bin Laden article, they don't refer to his website for info on him. Heck, if I wanted an article about myself, it'd be much more beneficial - for me - to quote one of my website when describing myself than to quote others. It would, however, not necessarily, be entirely true. And that's what WP is all about, keeping the facts straight. You can't call someone an established academical researcher if 90% of his published material was pubished at frontpagemagazine.com - that would be akin, to use the Osama example, if Osama bin Laden's article described him as a "kind, respectful humanitarian bent on freeing the world from US hegemony", based on published material on ihatebushandamerica.com.--TVPR 05:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

career as a researcher of Islam

While his biographies and the articles continue to say that he has been a "researcher" of Islam since the day he entered college as an undergrad, I have yet to see one reference to him publishing or saying one word about Islam prior to plus or minus a few years around 2000. He has a long publishing history but exclusively in Catholic publications on Catholic religious issues. It would be good if the article clearly stated when his first known publication on Islam was. 12.96.162.45 20:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, would it not be reasonably obvious from the date of the first published book? This seems a statement of the obvious.--AnneCr

Which basically proves the anon's point - nothing at all prior to ca. 2000. So you agree e's not a "long-time researcher" after all?--TVPR 06:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

toward a more accurate early biography

This is a long-form early biography of Spencer. I'm putting it here to provide some information for those who might be interested.

Spencer drifted between religions in college. He was initially an evangelical christian but due to a dispute in the student group he belonged to over the charismatic gifts, he rejected it. Having sought the opinion of an episcopal priest on the charismatic gifts, he was convinced to join to that church.

• What is your source on this? Since you have decided to doubt everything Spencer says about himself, I am sure it is not his published writings? --AnneCr
  • The point is that as encyclopedians, it's in everybody's best interrest to always doubt everything anyone ever says about themselves. --TVPR

That means that all of this early bio which is only known from Spencer's own writings is worthless.AnneCr 13:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

My source on this is Spencer himself writing in the Catholic Magazine "The Rock". He often wrote about himself in his early articles. I can provide you exact citations if necessary. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but apparently anything Spencer says about himself is unacceptable; "The point is that as encyclopedians, it's in everybody's best interrest to always doubt everything anyone ever says about themselves. --TVPR."

He then rejected that Church's beliefs and converted to Roman Catholicism. His masters thesis is about the theological issues on which he rejected the Episcopal church. In short summary, he became an Episcopal because he like its sense of authority based on tradition/ortodoxy as compared to the Evangelicals. He rejected the Episcopal church because its appeal to tradition was in contradiction with its rejection of the greater authority of Roman Catholicism.

• This is all very interesting, but other than showing a broad interest in religion is it relevant to anything? --AnneCr
  • I thought we were supposed to be writing a biography here... Meaning we include tidbits like these, which are enlightening to get some insight into the man's personality. --TVPR

Spencer is a "researcher" in religion. In the interests of a full biography, its very relivant to deal with his entire life rather than try to erase everything in his life before 2002. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence that he had any interest in Islam in college or actually long after.

• Well, he says so, and he has written several books bout Islam. You are implying that he is a liar, and that a person could go from having no interest in Islam to writing a book about it. --AnneCr
  • Him saying so is completely irrelevant.

Actually that's nonsense. "When did you become interested in X; How did you become interested in Y?" are perfectly reasonable questions to put to a subject.

Also, anyone with an agenda could go from having no interrest in something to writing a book about it. I'm not particularly into nuclear weapons, but if I wanted to write a book deriding the US, I'd propably learn quite a lot about it to use as an argument. --TVPR

"if" "probably" "with an agenda"-AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting to put something like this on the page (thats why its here). But is a VERY valid question for Spencer. I can't find one word he wrote about Islam prior to 2001. The school he went to wasn't exactly noted for its program in mideast studies. His thesis wasn't on Islam but his thesis was consistent with his next ten years of publishings (not on Islam). 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Though he claims he thought about entering a PHD program in mideast studies when he got his MA, that seems rather unlikely.

• Again, you are just calling him a liar. And actually, the quote was concerning all PhD programs as well. In fact let's go to the quote, "Spencer has criticized academics at his web site writing that he opted not to enter any PhD program because he "could see [in 1986] that Middle East Studies and other departments were becoming highly politicized and retreating from genuine academic work"--AnneCr
  • Yes, this is speculative - but may well be correct. It doesen't belong in the article, but my point here is that his own word is worth jack shit in an article about him. --TVPR

No it isn't, especially when attributed to him, and not stated as factAnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm allowed to be speculative on the discussion page. I'm not suggesting this be put in the article. If you choose to believe a man who pursued an MA in religious studies with a thesis on Catholicism had the ability to simply jump into a PHD program in mideast studies, I can't help you. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

He lived in the Bronx in New York after college for some period of time. He wrote freelance articles for a variety of Catholic publications in the 1990s. He wrote articles defending papal infallibility, that Catholic Dogma was the church's reason for living, that the unity of the first millinium christian church was a naive myth and that the split between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches had "borne good fruit by God's grace".

• Again, do you have some source here? And what is the point? (To be homest, I don't even know what his means. "Native Myth?" )--AnneCr
  • The point is still that an article, a biographical such, should include info on his life, not just "this is what Bob Spencer thinks about Islam: it's terrible!!!". That's what biographies are all about. --TVPR

No, it should include relevant infoAnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The sources are Spencer's own writings in Catholic publications during the 1990s. Native has been corrected to "naive". Spencer has set himself up as an authority on religion and the role of religion in history. As such, his writings on Christian issues are very relivant. That he considers Catholicism as a the only valid form of Christianity is very important actually.

1)What does "'the split between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches had "borne good fruit by God's grace' " mean? 2)don't most adherents of a religion believe that they are right? He has said he is a Catholic, therefore of course he thinks Catholicism true 3)"only valid form" is a little strong and is at odds with the Catholic Church, see here [1]. do you have a quote from SpencerAnneCr 00:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Around 2001, he got involved with Daniel Ali, a muslim convert to Christianity. Spencer joined Ali's Christian-Islamic Forum which was a group dedicated to converting muslims to christianity based on Islamic scriptures and knowledge of Islam.

• That is not true, as has been previously discussed, and then conveniently archived. Ali wrote an article about his own reaction to Sept. 11 and the way to convert Muslims; his group according to Ali and the sources archived above, was fromed prior to 9/11. Direct quote from source "Before Father Most died, in January of l999, he and I discussed forming a forum in which Christians and Muslims could dialogue." [2]--AnneCr
  • I'm not giving either of you right in this one, but Anne, most of the sources you're listing are very heavily biased, either due to agreeing with Spencer on everything or due to him and the people in question operating them. --TVPR

Actually, i am citing the source that was used above by anonAnneCr 13:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Does Ali mention Spencer in this00:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)~

Every word written is consistant with what has been archived. Daniel Ali (in that article) says in 1995:"I began immediately to tell my Muslim friends why I had converted, and made great efforts to evangelize them.". Your suggestion that Daniel Ali intended to dialog with Muslims about issues not related to conversion is not consistent with what he has written. Further, Daniel Ali makes it clear that Christian-Islamic Forum which Spencer was a member of was dedicated to evangilizing muslims. If that dedication happened before or after 9/11 does not matter, Spencer was a member and that was the organizations goal.12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You cannot conflate an individual and the organization he founded. You are exchanging an exact quote about the forum for your impression based on Ali's statements.AnneCr 23:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

What I have done is to show that Daniel Ali was a muslim convert to Christianity who say evangelizing muslims as something he was willing to devote a "great effort" to in 1995. It is then shown that the Christian Islamic forum was dedicated to the conversion of Muslims to Christianity using islamic works at the time of its first meeting. What you have shown is an ambiguity about what the purpose of the forum was between January 1999 and the time of the first meeting of the forum. As I have already said, Spencer was a board member of the organization *after* it became dedicated (according to Ali) to conversion. So (again) if that dedication happened before or after 9/11 does not matter, Spencer was a member and that was the organizations goal. 12.96.162.45 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

He also did a couple freelance pieces for National Review. Those relationships led to his first and second books.

• Now I am really curious. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming?--AnneCr

• • Not having looked into this, I'm guessing National Review was behind publising said books. Him getting a "foot in the door", so to speak, would then be critical to getting something published. --TVPR

Okay, so now are you saying Spencer's statements attributed to him (not presented as fact but as his statements) are worthless but these guesses are just fine?

They also mark the point at which he became a "researcher" on Islam.

• Unless of course, he is telling the truth about his early interest in Islam, which would not at all be out of character for someone who was (as you said in the first paragraph) "drifting through religions."--AnneCr
  • I wouldn't call "Oh, should I be a powertripping christian, a free-form christian or some other kind of christian" drifting between religions - rather drifting between directions. As much as you might like to think so, evangelists and episcopals are just as Christian as protestants and catholics. And, once again, his word is irrelevant. Your point that him telling the truth about early interest in Islam falls on its own back, since it would be in his best interrest to make the world think he was into the religion since he left kindergarten. It's all about him trying to get himself some credibility, and by listening to him, you're only helping. That's not building a reliable biography. --TVPR

Nonsense, the primary evidence of his interest in Islam is his writings, I don't care whether he learned about it first in college or on Sept 12, 2001. I just question your question everything mentality.AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Through his freelancing at National Review, he was able to get one of the editors to write the forward for his first book.

• How do you know this, or are you just guessing?--AnneCr
  • It's called logic. What, you think he could have gotten an editor to write his foreword if he had no idea who he was? --TVPR

It is far from logical. It is the error known as Post Hoc, Ergo Propter, i.e. after the fact therefore because of the fact.AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

His timing was excellent in that he was well-positioned after 9/11. He was hired into the Free Congress Foundation as an "adjunct fellow" and wrote a bunch of website-filler stuff for them.

• "Web site filler stuff"? I believe the word you are looking for is "articles"--AnneCr
  • Agreed, we can't say "website-filler" in the article. That's what it is, though. --TVPR

That's what what is?.AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no information to be found so far on what he did before the Free Congress Foundation. [[User: |12.96.162.45]] 20:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

• And even less is known about Mr-or-Ms 12.96.162.45AnneCr 03:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not playing that game. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Now you're making personal attacks, again violating policy.

Unlike just "blatantly calling {me} a sock puppet. AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't call you a sock puppet. Please stop making insunations about me and take your problems with other people to a different heading. 12.96.162.45 18:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

If the anon can provide sources for this, I'd be overjoyed to include most of it in the article. Also, he/she - unlike certain others - does things the right way, by discussing this type of long, heavy changes in the talk page before putting them in the article. The alternative would be to just post it directly into the article, with an ensuing edit war leaving us with bits, pieces, and a rotten article.--TVPR 06:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to take the comments and start on version 2. I'll add citations as suggested. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of pursuing accurate truth, I'd like to put it forth that Robert Spencer might either have grown up in or is now a member of the Melkite Catholic Church, which is only affiliated with rather than a part of the Roman Catholic Church. Unfortuneately, I only read this in an unreferenced posting by a member of the FaithFreedom.org website. Perhaps someone else might look into this question and confirm it from a reliable secondary source? ~Anonymous 4:40 AM ET 22 October, 2006

Watch his recent c-span interview which is linked at the bottom of the article. There you shall find the details you seek.--CltFn 00:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There is also this: [3] The interesting bit is:

"Well as you may know I am a Melkite Catholic and my family is from the Islamic world. I remember being intrigued by the Koran and while in college several Muslim students knew of my background and ask me to read the Koran. I was happy to and spent a great deal of time reading the Koran and asking questions. I think my Muslim friends thought because of my interest that they could convert me but I was quite happy in my faith."

For Clarification:

- I dont know of any evidence that he grew up in the Melkite Catholic Church. He could possibly have been Eastern Orthodox in one form or another as a child. If he was Orthodox, it explains his obsession with Monophysitism in his early writings. It creates another mystery in that if he was Orthodox or grew up Orthodox, why didn't he mention that in his writings?

"obsession"? I think this is going the way of tabloid journalism. I just don't see the mystery here. He answered the question about his his religious affiliation in the interview you posted. He answers questions about his religion at his web site. You are saying he "could possibly have been" Eastern Orthodox, and then find it mysterious that he never mentioned it,

even thought that is nothing but your guessAnneCr 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I would again ask you to try and engage in a civil discussion. I use the word obsession because few people today are even aware of a centuries-old christian dispute over Monophysitism. Robert Spencer has written multiple articles about it and it is the subject of his Masters Thiesis. His writings also strongly suggest it played a key role in his conversion from an Episcopalian to a Catholic. I would personally describe that amount of work on such an obsecure topic as an obsession. As far as the rest, I will remind you once again that the purpose of a discussion is to "discuss". People are allowed to make deductions, question sources, engage in speculation and talk about the subject of the article. If you have a different understanding of what discussion is, please explain what you think that is. 12.96.162.45 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

- I'm not quite sure which college year he was "intrigued" by the Koran. He was part of a campus Evangelical movement for at least a year (if not longer). He also claims to have spent a year as a "full-time social ministries intern" in the Episcopal Church before his conversion to Roman Catholicism. And which of his three "faiths" was he quite happy with? (Orthodox, Evangelical, Catholic).

Christianity is the religion; I think you are making too much of denominational differences. More to the point, you seem to be selectively willing to let Spencer be a source. Do you have some third party evidence of the campus Evangelical movement, or are you just accepting Spencer's word? Why does do you use the word "claim" about his being a "full-time social ministries intern", but not for other parts of his bio?AnneCr 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The use of "claim" in discussion is a form of attribution. Since this is an open discussion, I am free to use any particular wording I choose. I am also free to both use Spencer as a source and to question the validity of any statement made by any source. That is one of the many purposes of a discussion page. And again, the religious history of a writer whose MA is in religion and who writes books on religion is very relivant to discuss. 12.96.162.45 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

- He then converted to Roman Catholicism.

when?AnneCr 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Spencer has not provided dates. He wrote of his conversion in his work for Catholic publications. By the other facts he has provided, it can be deduced that it had to be between two years of his starting college and whenever he began writing his Masters Thesis. The subject of his masters thesis is directly related to his conversion. He has claimed to have spent a year in an evagelical group and at least a year in the Episcopal Church. 12.96.162.45 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how he can claim to be otherwise while having writing "Since this case seemed to be the best one the anti-infallibilists could turn to, I became an infallibilist, a Catholic with faith in the pope as the Vicar of Christ and successor of St. Peter." and "When compared with the other great ancient see of the Church, the patriarchate of Constantinople, the papacy possessed monumental purity. Among the patriarchs of Constantinople were the arch-heretic Nestorius, a collection of grubby Iconoclasts and fellow travelers, and even a Calvinist, Cyril Loukaris!". Its difficult to comprehend a "Melkite" who says things like that. 12.96.162.45 17:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I cannot imagine why a Melkite would not. Are you unaware that Melkites are Catholics?AnneCr 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

In brief, the Melkite Catholic Church is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church but it not the same thing as the Roman Catholic Church. Full communion between the churches indicates that all critical elements of the Christian faith from the Catholic point of view are common to the churches, but differences in other areas may still exist. There are on the order of 20 churches in this situation. There is a further complex matter of doctrine in that Catholic Church holds itself to be the *only* christian church and therefore does not recognize entities in full or partial communion as seperate (including the Melkite Catholic Church). But apart from a dogmatic point of view, it is a seperate entity. Historically, the differences have involved using Eastern rites in services (as opposed to Latin ones), issues with regard to baptism and married priests. 12.96.162.45 16:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Do Articles Belong in a Bibliography?

Here is the list. Also partially answers the "cite needed" question above:AnneCr 04:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm altering your list in favor of keeping the discussion page shorter. You lifted everything

from [[4]] which may be under copyright except the material you removed from the article:

Holy Wreck: Catholics Battle Over Architecture
National Review Online, August 25, 2002

My Favorite Marcion
This Rock, December 1997

Knowing the Gnostics
This Rock, January 1996

The Truth about Pope Honorius
This Rock, September 1994

I think these four deserve to be in the article. My reasoning is that Mr. Spencer (for whatever reason) does not list his early work in his own lists of publications. As a compromise, I'm willing to have the four articles listed plus a link to his official list of publications at Jihadwatch. Is that acceptable to you? 12.96.162.45 18:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No. That would give a decidedly false impression, the 4 articles listed on Wikipedia would be more prominent. although he seems to have written a handful of early articles and become a regular columnist around 2002, The articles issue is handled in the bio as it stands now which mentions some Catholic articles early on, regular columnist at Frontpage Magazine, Human Events more recently, some in other papers. No articles were listed previously. Does every columnist get a listing of columns in Wikipedia? It seems absurd.AnneCr 19:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

These are not columns. They represent his written work on various topics before 2002. It is hardly unknown on Wikipedia for selected publications to be presented from periodicals or journals. While it would be unusual to list every column written by a columnist, I will point out you that you are the only one making that suggestion.

Again, in an attempt to compromise I would hope that you would be willing to accept the listing of some number of selected article (not regular columns) to create a balance and to eliminate what you consider a false impression being given. 12.96.162.45 20:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I have not seen the articles, so I really don't know how they differ from a Front Page article. What do you want to include and why? AnneCr 23:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

---

That's just scary, I thought the guy was some sort of male Ann Coulter Light, but seems he's almost just as raving mad. Any old how, I'd re-sort that list if I were you. Half of the articles are listed under wrong publication. Now, another thing; from every single one of those publications, the only ones I found not to be bleeding obvious in their bias were the Dallas Morning News, the National Post, and the New York Post - of which I counted 1 occurance of each. The remainder of the articles are from heavily biased conservative publishings or plain old religious nutjobs. None of this - none, whatsoever - proves him to be anything close to a researcher. If anything it paints him as a zealot obsessed with "The ever-present danger of murder-religion Islam".--TVPR 07:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

He isn't an Ann Coulter. He isn't even the worst of the writers in this area (see Bat Ye'or for a real raving mad case). I think the worst thing he has done so far is his attempt to historically rehabilitate the crusades as a good thing. His association with Frontpage and David Horowitz has actually hurt any mainstream acceptance he had. All he seems to be able to do these days is endlessly repeat the same things he said four years ago. 12.96.162.45 18:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Not even the worst of the writers in this area." Wow. It is kind of astonishing that you and the TVPR person both feel so free to flaunt you biases in the discussion and then think that you are going to be able to write something NPOV.AnneCr 19:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Scary"? Well, Happy Halloween. Meanwhile, I have given you the info I have. If you have better info about the articles, fix them. I don't see what you are talking about when you say "wrong publication."

Earlier we have settled "Robert Bruce Spencer is an American writer focusing on Islam" omitting the word "researcher."

This list was an effort to answer are the question about publishing which had been tagged as "citation needed"

You are quite welcome to your opinion of Right Wing publications, but your opinion that such opinions are "scary" seems a bit parochial.

And while you have questioned my right to contribute to this article based on my interest in it an it alone, you seem oblivious to the fact that others might view your biases (as revealed in your comments in this and other articles such as on "Christian Terrorists") as problematic.AnneCr 15:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• I never questioned your right to edit the article, I used said argument as indices that you might have been a sockpuppet, for which I now apologize. In any case, my opinion on right-wingers is not of relevance, the fact that his publications more or less exclusively have made it into outlets that make no attempt to hide their bias is. I'm trying to push forward facts, and facts from a neutral POV - including not attributing virtues to a biased writer like Bob Spencer which he does not posess. If he wants to portray himself as a serious, knowledgeable researcher on Islam, that's swell, but a WP article on him should not serve as a tool to push him closer to this goal. It should contain a biographical summary of his life and actions, and dated entries for when and how he started writing on Islam. It should summarize his views, and what bias those who publish them, have - not push these as facts on the reader.--TVPR 15:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what standard you are using to determine who is a "researcher"; I am perfecty happy with "writer". I question your bias that a "serious, knowledgeable researcher on Islam" cannot write in right wing publications.AnneCr 18:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

starting the clock on consulting statements

I cannot find any source to validate that Robert Spencer has consulted with:

1) US Central Command 2) The US State Department 3) The German Foreign Ministry

If anyone is working to validate these claims, speak up now. I intend to remove the statements after a reasonable interval unless someone provides something to support these statements or other reasoning why this material should stay in the article. 12.96.162.45 20:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

This information is on Spencer's website. Your presumption that he is an untrustworthy source reveals your biases, and is absurd.

These were not public meetings, but he wrote about them at Jihad Watch at the time they happened. Other people were in attendance. Instead of assuming he is dishonest, why don't you ask him for some verification, or provide some reason why you find his information about these consultations untrustworthy? He is quite specific about the State Department/German Foreign Ministry workshop here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/012304.php. Why don't you contact the German Foreign Ministry in Berlin and ask them if such a workshop took place, and if he was there? Likewise he writes that he gave a workshop to a U.S. Central Command group in Tampa, FL on May 23, 2006: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/011546.php. Why not contact them and ask, or contact Spencer? Your assumptions here reveal a bias so unyielding that any pretensions you have to objectivity have been thoroughly eviscerated.AnneCr 23:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Your behavior is unacceptable. The statements:

• "Your presumption that he is an untrustworthy source reveals your biases, and is absurd.",

• "Your assumptions here reveal a bias so unyielding that any pretensions you have to objectivity have been thoroughly eviscerated."

are personal attacks. This is the second time you have made a personal attack on me.

Your statement:

• "provide some reason why you find his information about these consultations untrustworthy"

is a misrepresentation. There are (or were) open citation requests in the article on these matters. I offered no judgement about the trustworthyness of any particular material in this regard. Please review policy and cease the personal attacks. 12.96.162.45

I have reviewed the policy and do not consider this a personal attack. Thanks so much for your helpul advice, but I believe you to be mistaken. I am questioning the NPOV of what you write given that you have repeatedly said (see above) that you doubt what Spencer says in his own bio about his interest in Islam, his own religion and various factors.AnneCr 01:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you review good faith, Civility and remember "Wikipedians engaging in debate is an essential part of the culture of Wikipedia". It is perfectly acceptable on any biography page to question any biography or biographical detail. The reason I have gone to great lengths to discuss issues here is to avoid POV disputes. 12.96.162.45

Is Spencer's public bio a reliable source about his own life?

TVPR/Anon3190 added "cite needed" tags to a number of facts that another contributor had put in. The original included references to Spencer's web site. I consider it to be a legitimate source until proven otherwise. AnneCr 01:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Nobody has ever suggested otherwise. Please review what "cite needed" tags mean. In short they mean that if someone knows of valid sources to back the statement made in the article, that they add a reference to that source as a citation in the article. However, it is perfectly acceptable to raise questions about the accuracy of Spencer's public bio in this discussion page.12.96.162.45

Actually, if you read the above discussion TVPR/Anon3190 did not only suggest otherwise, he said so.AnneCr 02:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Al Qaeda

Al qaeda is not cited as a critic but in a section marked Views on Spencer's works. They are far more prominent that the other sources mentioned.

The phrase is "If the Zionist Crusader missionaries of hate and counter-Islam consultants..." found here:[5]

The problem is that mentioning it as a "critic" is politically inflamitory and ends up smearing his other serious critics. His dispute with Al Qaeda can be mentioned in the article, but putting it in the list of critics fails NPOV. Further, [6] already has an entire section devoted to in the article. (see invitation to islam). Since its already covered, why does it need to be double-covered in the critics list.

It does not violate NPOV. They criticize him. Arrow740 09:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

As any student of certain monotheistic religions knows, there are sins of ommission and sins of commission. This article errs in the former, because althought it has a long section on Spencer's reactions to his critics, it has almost nothing to say about the critiques themselves. Until this problem is corrected, this article cannot claim to be in compliance with WP:NPOV. --Zantastik talk 03:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see as how the reactions of the subject of an article to criticism have a place in a biographical page in the first place. Response to criticism from the subject is by its very nature POV and inappropriate. The article needs to be encyclopedic rather than serve as a forum for debate between spencer, his supporters and his critics. If the criticism is to be expanded, it has to be expanded in an NPOV way and avoid any kind of back-and-forth arguement between "sides". 12.96.162.45 16:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Without any discussion, others have restored the section which means that Zantastik's NPOV issue is relivant again. The section (rather than the article) is now marked NPOV. In my opinion, to clear the NPOV tag the choices are either

• Remove the "response to critics" section
• Add a new paragraph of material detailing what the criticisms he is responding to are.

12.96.162.45 15:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. The irony in all of this is that the article was much shorter -- a "just the facts" version representing an earlier consensus -- up until a few months ago, when one user in particular (who made little or no attempt at concealing his anti-Spencer agenda) forced the issue of a "Criticism" section. Before that, obviously there was no NPOV issue like the one we're dealing with now. One of the main objections to the a criticism/response section was that it would result in another interminable bout of wrangling over its content and balance.

And here we are. Dy-no-miite 19:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I would be happy with the short criticism section as it exists now minus the "spencer responds to critics" sub-section. I don't think the sub-section is necessary given the "just the facts" version and I think re-expanding the criticism section would be a total disaster. I wish the people who *want* that sub-section to stay so badly could explain why and how they plan to fix the NPOV issue that its created. 12.96.162.45 19:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if we're going to have a "criticism" section, following to the resolution of the late-August/early September debate, I see the "response to critics" section as providing balance. Otherwise, the article is skewed decidedly "anti-Spencer": Suppose you had never heard of someone, and looked them up in an encyclopedia to find just a biographical entry, and a battery of criticisms. You'd think, "Wow, this guy must be awful," as the unanswered criticisms would serve to discredit the subject of the article and make the encyclopedia a platform for character assassination. Dy-no-miite 21:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What we have right now is a more or less equal number of external views of Spencer on both sides under "Views on Spencer's works" with little else said. I think that serves in place of a criticism section discussed months ago. In the article's current form there is no battery of criticism. If explicit criticims were to be added back in (a bad idea IMO), that would create a reason for the response subsection to be there. But right now thats not the case. 12.96.162.45 21:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I still think the "negative views" present charges that should be answered. I also think following up the section with Spencer's own words is a more neutral ending than letting either those who approve or disapprove of his work have the "last word" in the section. Ending with Spencer's own words invites the reader to form his/her own opinion rather than leaving who is "right" up future disputes among users. And a quotation from the person who is the subject of the article is a useful thing to have in a biographical entry. Dy-no-miite 04:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

new POV problems

The newly added section of "positive" views of Spencer's work is POV and unacceptable. It appears to be almost exclusively a collection of promotional statements mostly from a single book (the one on the crusades). The leading text: "Reviews of Spencer's bestselling book include these remarks:" suggests that it may have even been wholesale lifted from somewhere. There may or may not be copyright problems as well as POV problems.

The quotations used are essentially political material rather than actual reviews of spencers work. Examples:

• "Robert Spencer assails, with much erudition, the taboos imposed by the Politically Correct League"

• "The jihad that the Western world faces today is identical in its motivations and goals to that which Europe managed to stave off almost a thousand years ago thanks in large part to the Crusades of which the West is now ashamed."

• "Today's jihad, as Spencer illustrates here, is proceeding on two fronts: one of violence and terror, and another of cultural shaming and the rewriting of history."

• "he warns against the spirit of masochistic self-loathing that permeates the Western elite class."

The positive section needs to confine itself specifically to opinions on Spencer's work. That means for starters no political cheap shots and political opinions that are not Spencers opinions. The Ba Ye'or text buried toward the end is a example of somewhat acceptable material. 12.96.162.45 20:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

list of POV issues in spencer's response to critics

• "One example: after I spoke at the University of North Carolina, Professor Carl Ernst of the university wrote a piece about me warning that my books were non-scholarly and were published by presses that he believed reflected a political agenda of which he did not approve."

This requires a citation to the exact "piece" that Spencer is talking about. Spencer's interpretation needs to be checked against the original work for POV.

• "That kind of approach may impress some people, but Carl Ernst did not and cannot bring forth even a single example of a supposed inaccuracy in my work."

This is entirely subjective POV. Spencer is making subjective conclusions about the work of another person. That is not encyclopedic.

• Spencer has criticized academics at his web site writing that he opted not to enter any PhD program because he "could see [in 1986] that Middle East Studies and other departments were becoming highly politicized and retreating from genuine academic work"

This is unacceptable in a response to criticism section in that it is a criticism by Spencer of Middle East Studies programs. There is no response to criticism in this statement.

"and that is why I oppose the global jihad. And I think that those who make the charge know better in any case: they use the charge as a tool to frighten the credulous and politically correct away from the truth"

This porition of the statement is not a response to criticism. It is a political statement and an accusation presented without proof. Spencer here is accusing his critics of being liars with conspiratorial motivations.

I think in general it would be best to move away from many of the direct Spencer quotes and to have his arguements agianst his critics summarized in a encyclopedic way that also removes the attacks on specific critics. 12.96.162.45 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the first time I've ever contributed to wikipedia, so I'm not sure if my form is kosher, but the links to Carl Ernst's considered response to the substance of Spencer's claims don't work. The reader is left with a very lopsided view of Spencer, skewed positively, while there are evidently serious questions being raised about 1) his use of the primary sources; 2) his use of the secondary sources; and 3) his political agenda (e.g. "the politically incorrect guide to..."). When professional scholars such as Carl Ernst use words like "Islamophobe", the reader would like to know why. The article as it stands has a bunch of positive comments (and section for Spencer's response to his critics), and this is counterbalanced by some broad criticisms which border on ad hominem ("he has selection bias"), and one link of evident substance criticizing him (and that link doesn't work). If his critics claim that he has selection bias, the reader deserves to know *why*. It's a problem. A suggestion would be to move Juan Cole's open letter to Spencer up from the footnotes, and to give it equal space with the positive comments. There is plenty of substantive material to choose from in Cole's response, for example his point that SPencer uses legal compendiums from the fourteenth century to illustrate what Islam in its essence actually is. This is a very serious charge against spencer and his methodology (and obliquely his competence), and ought to be factored in (and not buried away in the footnotes) if the article is to show anything like balance. Geminifile 20:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with what you are saying, the article reached its current form because attempts to do what you want turned the article into a debate between supporters and critics. The pro-spencer element will not only refuse to accept what you are suggesting, they will demand that Spencers answers to every criticism be included as well. The current half-compromise is that there are links as references which give the actual views of the critics while other details are minimized in the article. Its not an ideal situation, but anything else is likely to lead to months or years of useless back-and-forth arguments/edits. 152.163.100.14 19:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Yea, in a way this is ground-zero for how the west is to understand (or not understand) Islam. So there's going to be a lot of emotional charges on both sides. I think you have to do the thing with a balance of structure. If you give five favorable quotes, give five specific criticisms. A "Response to his Critics" section simply has to be balanced by specific examples of those criticisms. In my view, it's a really important article, because Spencer has put himself on the front line of the neocon construction of Islam, and it's important to know what his arguments are, and equally important to know why scholars of Islam (many of whom are Muslims themselves) invariably think Spencer is a quack. I'd balance it out, five quotes pro, five quotes against. Spencer claims that Islam is *inherently* violent (as opposed to Christianity and to a lesser extent Judaism), which are not. It's a very important topic, which deserves a balanced discussion. The pro-Spencer side needs to be heard, in exactly 50% of the article. But I'm new to Wikipedia's vetting process, so I guess just consider this as comments from an interested/concerned observer.71.195.114.237 20:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

What is this "neocon construction of Islam?" You claim that "scholars of Islam invariably think Spencer is a quack." So you've polled them all and a majority of them think he's a quack? Your request for an equal number of anti-Spencer sentences will be hard to fill, because no one actually references his work when criticizing him. Arrow740 22:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The links to the neocons may be seen through David Horowitz, among others. As regards the claim that professional, peer-reviewed scholars generally ignore Spencer's work, or think him an outright quack (the link to Carl Ernst's article doesn't work, but see e.g. the comments by Khaleel Muhammad ((viz, "[spencer] manifests an unforgivable ignorance of the study of religion concerning law and interpretation")), or comments by Juan Cole, or others). There are substantive reasons why Spencer's work may be questioned, and readers should be allowed to decide for themselves their own opinions. I find it fascinating that someone has removed Juan Cole's open letter to spencer...while some claim the great virtue of western democracy and christian values are the openness of ideas and the free flow of information and tolerance for divergent viewpoints, (as opposed to the muslim model of repression, violence and intolerance), they advance the point by removing and supressing those who call it into question? Let's play "spot the irony"...

Answer my question. What is the "neocon construction of Islam." You have found two scholars who agree with you. This is not evidence that a majority of them agree with you. Even so, most tenured scholars of Islam are probably ninnies like Esposito, so their opinion is not evidence that he is a "quack." Why don't you read one of Spencer's books so that you can discuss his work intelligently? Arrow740 08:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Er, I don't want to rain on your parade, but "Juan Cole's open letter to spencer" was removed because it never mentioned Spencer, and thus has no place here. Khaleel Muhammad's statement is, like the others, unsupported by examples, and is therefore worthless as criticism. AnneCr

A strawman NPOV version of the "response to critics" section

I've come up with a proposal for a new version of his response to critics section. I'm trying to summarize Spencer's case in a neutral and encyclopedic way. No citations are presented this time but I will add them before putting anything into the article.

• Responding to criticisms, Spencer has said that he does not present his work based on his academic credentials but rather on the basis of the direct evidence gathered from his personal study of Islam. With regard to charges of bigotry and hatred, he has said that those making the claim are engaging in displacement and projection. He has also said that his critics use charges of hatred and bigotry to frighten the credulous and the political correct away from his work.

152.163.100.14 19:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Here again, I just think it's important to actually cite his critics. Who charged him with bigotry and hatred? Is that his own construction of why they don't like him, or are there sources for the claim. If there are sources, can we read them? If not, why not? Regarding the charges that he does not understand Islam (or rather, that he projects an understanding of extremist Islam onto *all Muslims*), can we have specific examples and citations? It's the same point I made above...just hoping that the controversy is fairly presented.71.195.114.237 20:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Robert Spencer and Secular Humanism

I've noticed that one of Spencer's works (2005) is published by Prometheus Books. For those not familar with them, they are the publishing house for secular humanism and a leading publisher of anti-religious books of all kinds. Its a strange place for someone with Spencer's political views to publish through. 12.96.162.45 18:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you're getting at there. Dy-no-miite 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)